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Matt Browne
Senior Member Male Joined: 19 April 2010 Location: Germany Status: Offline Points: 937 |
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Paul relied on Jesus, who said: "Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish, but to fulfill."
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A religion that's intolerant of other religions can't be the world's best religion --Abdel Samad
Great minds discuss ideas. Average minds discuss events. Small minds discuss people--Eleanor Roosevelt |
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honeto
Senior Member Male Islam Joined: 20 March 2008 Location: Texas Status: Offline Points: 2487 |
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And what does that mean, "did not come to abolish, but to fulfill?
Hasan |
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The friends of God will certainly have nothing to fear, nor will they be grieved. Al Quran 10:62
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Experiential
Guest Group Joined: 23 November 2010 Status: Offline Points: 311 |
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[
Very nice quotes from the Bible indeed but you haven't answered the question. [/QUOTE]
Your question was how Paul changed the Mosaic law or Old covenant. From above it is obvious it was Jesus who first heralded in the new Covenant. Not Paul. Edited by Experiential - 01 November 2012 at 10:28pm |
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Caringheart
Senior Member Joined: 02 March 2012 Status: Offline Points: 2991 |
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Greetings Abu Loren, I have to wonder did you even read? Because I did and I found some things new in it. Every response I read usually has a slightly different perspective and something to bring to the discussion. Salaam, Caringheart Edited by Caringheart - 01 November 2012 at 4:01pm |
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Experiential
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Your question was how Paul changed the Mosaic law or Old covenant. From above it is obvious it was Jesus who first heralded in the new Covenant. Not Paul. |
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Abu Loren
Senior Member Joined: 29 June 2012 Location: United Kingdom Status: Offline Points: 1646 |
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Oh really? If you read chapter 31 properly God is talking about a new covenent with the Children of Israel, it does say that this new covenent will be with Jesus (pbuh). Oh dear look at verse 30...31:30 But every one shall die for his own iniquity: every man that eateth the sour grape, his teeth shall be set on edge.Everyone is accountable for his own sins and noone else can atone for your sins unless you repent to God and ask forgiveness. Also to get the correct context you must read verse 31 & 32 put together it looks like this... 31:31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new
covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: 31:32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the
day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which
my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD: 31:33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of
Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward
parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my
people. Again this new covenent is not specifically for Jesus (pbuh). All Prophets of God had a covenent with Him, Abraham (pbuh) had covenent, Moses (pbuh) had a covenent and the final covenent with Prophet Muhammed (pbuh).
With Jesus' birth, life, death, and resurrection the Old Covenant was fulfilled and a new covenant was instituted. The Injil says, �At the moment of Jesus' death on the cross, states that the veil (separating the entrance to the holy of holies) of the Temple was ripped from top to bottom, symbolizing that with Jesus death there was no longer a need for the temple.� Matthew 27:51 |
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Placid
Senior Member Male Joined: 01 November 2012 Status: Offline Points: 236 |
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Hi Abu,
Concerning the Law of Moses, Jesus said in Matthew 5: 17 �Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill.� --- He re-introduced the law of love which is the fulfilling of the Law. And after Judas had left the group, Jesus said to the 11 Apostles, in John 13: 34 A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another; as I have loved you, that you also love one another. 35 By this all will know that you are My disciples, if you have love for one another.� --- So it was not Paul, nor James, that did away with the law, but Jesus --- because it had become ineffective. It says again in Luke 16: 14 Now the Pharisees, who were lovers of money, also heard all these things, and they derided Him. 15 And He said to them, �You are those who justify yourselves before men, but God knows your hearts. For what is highly esteemed among men is an abomination in the sight of God. 16 �The law and the prophets were until John. Since that time the kingdom of God has been preached, and everyone is pressing into it. --- It says this in John 1: 17 For the law was given through Moses, but grace and truth came through Jesus Christ. --- (So the law was in effect from the days of Moses till the days of John the Baptist.) This is what Paul said about the Jews in Romans 10: 1 Brethren, my heart�s desire and prayer to God for Israel is that they may be saved. 2 For I bear them witness that they have a zeal for God, but not according to knowledge. 3 For they, being ignorant of God�s righteousness, and seeking to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted to the righteousness of God. 4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes. And here is what it means. --- As mentioned above in Jeremiah 31:31-34, it mentions a New Covenant, and it is fulfilled in Hebrews 8: 7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then no place would have been sought for a second. 8 Because finding fault with them, He says: �Behold, the days are coming, says the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah� 9 not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they did not continue in My covenant, and I disregarded them, says the Lord. 10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will put My laws in their mind and write them on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. 11 None of them shall teach his neighbor, and none his brother, saying, �Know the Lord,� for all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them. 12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their lawless deeds I will remember no more.� 13 In that He says, �A new covenant,� He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away. Placid |
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Abu Loren
Senior Member Joined: 29 June 2012 Location: United Kingdom Status: Offline Points: 1646 |
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Ok so are you a placid person or do you live near Lake Placid? Let's go through your post point by point so we are on the same page. Concerning the Law of Moses, Jesus said in Matthew 5: 17 �Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill.� --- He re-introduced the law of love which is the fulfilling of the Law. And after Judas had left the group, Jesus said to the 11 Apostles, in John 13: 34 A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another; as I have loved you, that you also love one another. 35 By this all will know that you are My disciples, if you have love for one another.� OK verse 5:7 is crystal clear in the English language. So who destroyed the Law? John 13:34-35 you are automatically thinking that he is god. A new commandment is not replacing the Law of Moses (pbuh) but he just says that people should love one another. He did not advocate any change in the Law nor a new covenent. --- So it was not Paul, nor James, that did away with the law, but Jesus --- because it had become ineffective. It says again in Luke 16: 14 Now the Pharisees, who were lovers of money, also heard all these things, and they derided Him. 15 And He said to them, �You are those who justify yourselves before men, but God knows your hearts. For what is highly esteemed among men is an abomination in the sight of God. 16 �The law and the prophets were until John. Since that time the kingdom of God has been preached, and everyone is pressing into it. --- It says this in John 1: 17 For the law was given through Moses, but grace and truth came through Jesus Christ. --- (So the law was in effect from the days of Moses till the days of John the Baptist.) If you had kept reading Luke 16 it says in verse 17.. 16:17 And it is easier for heaven and earth to pass, than one tittle of
the law to fail. With regard to John:17 it can be interpreted as that verse was inserted much later by pro Jesus the god trinitarian activists. It just does not make sense with the context of the chapter. This is what Paul said about the Jews in Romans 10: 1 Brethren, my heart�s desire and prayer to God for Israel is that they may be saved. 2 For I bear them witness that they have a zeal for God, but not according to knowledge. 3 For they, being ignorant of God�s righteousness, and seeking to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted to the righteousness of God. 4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes. Nobody should take Paul seriously because he did not intent for his LETTERS to be included in any canonical work. They were just LETTERS that he wrote to these different church communities who decided to follow the Trinitarian line. Paul had a nervous breakdown after he persecuted and killed thousands of Christians and had a guilty feeling and became a Christian himself. Who is Paul to say the Christ is the end of the Law? The Law can only be abolished by God Alimighty. And here is what it means. --- As mentioned above in Jeremiah 31:31-34, it mentions a New Covenant, and it is fulfilled in Hebrews 8: 7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then no place would have been sought for a second. 8 Because finding fault with them, He says: �Behold, the days are coming, says the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah� 9 not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they did not continue in My covenant, and I disregarded them, says the Lord. 10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will put My laws in their mind and write them on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. 11 None of them shall teach his neighbor, and none his brother, saying, �Know the Lord,� for all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them. 12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their lawless deeds I will remember no more.� 13 In that He says, �A new covenant,� He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away. Fine. Paul is quoting Jeremiah so what? Who is he to say that Jesus (pbuh) set up the New Covenent? Any new covenents must come from God Almighty. This is fine if you believe that Jesus (pbuh) was the son of or god incarnate. Everything falls down flat I'm afraid. You must take Paul out of the equation, don't believe anything he says. His letters are just his opinions poured out to the new churches and which somebody decided to include in the new Christian canonical works. Now bring in the early church fathers like Iraneus and ask him why he specifically chose these gospels and letters of Paul and left out all of the other gospels such as Peter, Mary, Judas, Thomas etc etc et. |
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