Apostacy and few other issues |
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honeto
Senior Member Male Islam Joined: 20 March 2008 Location: Texas Status: Offline Points: 2487 |
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bunter,
here is what you commented a couple of pages that I am trying to answer, while you keep buzzing other things. Here is what you said: "There is much here we might agree on regarding obedience. However, Christians would not ever think in terms of obeying God AND the apostle because that seems to equate the apostle with God and to Christians that sounds like blasphemy. " What I am trying to say is that a prophet is chosen by God to be our leader or a teacher, to guide us, to educate us about how to be good believers. We obey the prophet, because God communicated (sent scripture) and sent guidance through him, he teaches us who God is, and how to serve God better. Obviously you seem to not see the role of each one as different. Guidance comes from God, the prophet lives that guidance as an example, we copy his example and try to live it. What I see you refuse to let yourself understand is that God, there is only One. The Prophet (pbuh) and all the prophets (pbut) were chosen by God to be our guides, our teachers, and by accepting them as such and following their examples is not same as equating them to God. Rather making one of them as a God (like Christians did with Jesus)that is real blasphemy you oversee. Taking Jesus or Mohammed as prophets and teachers and following their examples is not blasphemy, taking them as gods is. The ten commandments of Moses (pbuh) were not actually Moses', God gave him those commands to teach to the people. Those who recognized Moses as God's prophet obeyed him as such and followed them to be true believers. Same with Noah, those who did not obey him as what he was, a warner and a prophet disbelieved and God dealt with them as such, destroying them. So, when we refuse a prophet of God, we refuse God, and we will suffer its consequences, simple as that. Can a prophet be wrong, sometimes may be, since they were also humans, but if God chose them to be His prophets and teachers on earth, I am sure they would be of a good example. Take Jesus (pbuh) for example, as a Muslim I have no doubt that he was perfect in behavior, but only God knows the absolute truth. The present day Bible shows Jesus to be not so consistent and hypocritical, and that's why I do not believe those verses to be true representation of Jesus. For example we hear a lot about love, but this goes against all that when Jesus don't find figs when he is hungry so he curses a poor tree, this is certainly not true of a beloved of God with so much faith,even an ordinary man would not do this, imagine a beloved of God is quoted to have said this (may God forgive): Mattew 21:18 Early in the morning, as Jesus was on his way back to the city, he was hungry. 19 Seeing a fig tree by the road, he went up to it but found nothing on it except leaves. Then he said to it, �May you never bear fruit again!� Immediately the tree withered. On one side he is quoted to respect and honor one's mother and father which I would expect from any teacher from God, while in the same Bible, he himself is disrespecting his own mother, how that can be: John 2:3 And when they wanted wine, the mother of Jesus saith unto him, They have no wine.4 Jesus saith unto her, Woman, what have I to do with thee? A well mannered man, let alone a prophet would never address his respectful mother like Virgin Mary (pbuh) in the manner the Bible verse does. This cannot be true of how Jesus spoke to his mother. Hasan Edited by honeto - 27 August 2012 at 3:34pm |
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The friends of God will certainly have nothing to fear, nor will they be grieved. Al Quran 10:62
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bunter
Senior Member Male Joined: 28 March 2011 Status: Offline Points: 123 |
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I understand what you believe and of course it is a matter for you. But all I pointed out was that Christians will ONLY say they obey God and Biblical prophets never point to themselves, they never say obey me but rather they say obey God. So they make if you like a distinction between their own words and actions and whatever revelation they may have received. Other than Jesus, there are sins listed agains virtually every Biblical prophet and so we do not follow their every action as if it was in some way a perfect example.
You words only make sense if Jesus is not God but there is abundant evidence from the Bible that he is divine. We can look at that evidence if you wish. Its an odd idea to refuse a prophet without first establishing his credentials. In Islam you claim for example Adam as a prophet but Biblically we have almost nothing recorded of what he said. Similarly, you mention other Biblical prophets, such as Jesus but if you look in the Quran you would be very hard pressed to construct more than a sentence to two of what he said
But what authority do you have to decide who God might use? Its not a question of being human, but of being sinners. So I know that God uses sinners because otherwise he would be hard pressed to find anyone. I don't know anywhere in the BIble where God says he is looking for good people to be prophets. David is one example who committed murder and adultery but he is also described as being 'after God's own heart' - now that might seem strange but David was aware of his sin and sought forgiveness and repentance.
But all you are really doing here is deciding what God can or cannot do. In the Quran there are hundreds of verses promising the worst imaginable suffering on unbelievers which no doubt you believe but then complain about treatment of a fig tree. I wonder who is being consistent here? You complain about the way Jesus refers to his mother and have decided it was bad. But I don't see it like that at all because we know how Jesus treated people from other verses. Here we see that there is more than just family connections, indeed there is a wider family. For example, some years ago we had an important wedding anniversary but none of our immediate family could come and some refused to come to the celebration so we had a small gathering in Church on our usual Wednesday communion meeting and then I realised what Jesus meant when he said 'these are my mother and sister and brothers.' You might understand this better if you thought about what you mean by Ummah. |
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honeto
Senior Member Male Islam Joined: 20 March 2008 Location: Texas Status: Offline Points: 2487 |
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Bunter,
you are just mistaken on a very simple issue. God is God, a prophet is a prophet. A prophet is not God, and God is not a prophet. Of course prophets were teachers, you must listen to your teachers what they tell you. It is the same fact that was before in the OT times, those who were obeying to Moses or Noah or Lot were not making them gods but obeying them as prophets. You cannot distinguish that? Proverbs 5: 12 And say, How have I hated instruction, and my heart despised reproof; 13 And have not obeyed the voice of my teachers, nor inclined mine ear to them that instructed me! 14 I was almost in all evil in the midst of the congregation and assembly. 2:136 (Y. Ali) Say ye: "We believe in Allah, and the revelation given to us, and to Abraham, Isma'il, Isaac, Jacob, and the Tribes, and that given to Moses and Jesus, and that given to (all) prophets from their Lord: We make no difference between one and another of them: And we bow to Allah (in Islam)." As far as Jesus being divine, you gotta be kidding, we have seen more than enough evidence from the Bible that showed he has a God, that he was subject to someone. These two qualities are not qualities of the divine: God does not have a God, and God is under no ones command. Hasan Edited by honeto - 05 September 2012 at 3:32pm |
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The friends of God will certainly have nothing to fear, nor will they be grieved. Al Quran 10:62
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bunter
Senior Member Male Joined: 28 March 2011 Status: Offline Points: 123 |
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You are NOT reading what I have been saying. That is the Quran continually says "Allah and his prophet" and that puts Mohammed on a level with God. It is a link between a prophet and God that as far as I know we never find in the Bible. As to the divinity of Jesus then I suggest you read the NT for yourself and find out the truth. Take the following verses as a starting point. Mark 14:61-63 (AMP) But He kept still and did not answer at all. Again the high priest asked Him, Are You the Christ (the Messiah, the Anointed One), the Son of the Blessed? And Jesus said, I Am; and you will [all] see the Son of Man seated at the right hand of Power (the Almighty) and coming on the clouds of heaven. Then the high priest tore his garments and said, What need have we for more witnesses? You have heard His blasphemy. What is your decision? And they all condemned Him as being guilty and deserving of death. Now this seems clear to me and evidently the Jews had no difficulty in understanding what Jesus was claiming here. |
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honeto
Senior Member Male Islam Joined: 20 March 2008 Location: Texas Status: Offline Points: 2487 |
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Bunter, I am not sure if you understand, what it means to obey the prophet and obey God. Prophets and apostles brought word of God that had to be obeyed. Prophets never claimed to be God, nor to be worshiped like God. So I am puzzled at your lack of differentiation of the two. You said: "Christians would not ever think in terms of obeying God AND the apostle" You sound like saying, if let us say prophet Moses saying to his people " your God is One God, and do not commit murder", any one obeying that command will be committing blasphemy? you are saying by following that command people will be equating Moses with God? That is so naive and I never thought of you that way. Muslims, through their prophet are told to not worship anything or anyone other than God. Prophet Mohammed(pbuh) was a living example of that command as all prophets were to live an example of what was preached through them, and thus not worshiping anything or anyone other than God by Muslims is following the example of their prophet. Where is blasphemy there, can you point out? Hasan |
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The friends of God will certainly have nothing to fear, nor will they be grieved. Al Quran 10:62
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honeto
Senior Member Male Islam Joined: 20 March 2008 Location: Texas Status: Offline Points: 2487 |
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Also you say their is nothing in Bible that say to obey apostles. Even though I understood what it is saying (following verse) but care to shed light on its message which basically goes against your argument that Christians are told not to obey their apostles (how silly):
John 15:20 Remember what I told you: �A servant is not greater than his master.� If they persecuted me, they will persecute you also. If they obeyed my teaching, they will obey yours also. Hasan Edited by honeto - 12 September 2012 at 6:00pm |
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The friends of God will certainly have nothing to fear, nor will they be grieved. Al Quran 10:62
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honeto
Senior Member Male Islam Joined: 20 March 2008 Location: Texas Status: Offline Points: 2487 |
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And for the issue of Jesus' divinity, your quote you are assuming meant that he was claiming to be God, for that they wanted to kill him for blasphemy?
Suppose we assume you to be right, even though we know that you are not based on evidence. There are other problems in the Bible that will contradict that, for example there are at least two other accounts of the same event that give a complete different reason for the Jews to kill him for: "Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?" John 10:36 The third reason given in the Bible for which the Jews wanted to kill him is also part of the same story in the same Bible: "And set up over his head his accusation written, THIS IS JESUS THE KING OF THE JEWS." Matthew 27:37 So take your best guess! Also remember there is ample evidence we have seen in the Bible that suggests Jesus to be a servant of God and a prophet of God, I guess all that is meaningless when you want to see him as God. My favorite quote (to show to Christians) is: "but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God." John 20:17 I hope you don't ignore facts and truth that will save you one day. Hasan Edited by honeto - 12 September 2012 at 7:56pm |
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The friends of God will certainly have nothing to fear, nor will they be grieved. Al Quran 10:62
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Nausheen
Moderator Group Female Joined: 10 January 2001 Status: Offline Points: 4251 |
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To Bunter:
Equating God with any man is blasphemy in Islam. - This means we DO NOT equate the prophet with God.
With regards to following Him - We follow the messenger because we believe whatever he has showed us a the 'way' is what God has intended us to be shown as the 'way'
The Quran says something like ' we have sent down a book and a messenger' God does not seperate His command from the messenger. We beleive that the messenger is the walking example of how God's command is to be followed - this is why we follow the messenger.
The Quran also says that the messenger does not command from himself - meaning that whatever dos and donts we have been told through the messenger are exactly those which God has intended.
You've asked if the messenger could make a mistake - and the answer is yes. Yes, he made mistakes in his choices and revelation were sent down to correct him - these revelations are included in the quran. Its indeed a topic which if you persue in a new thread you can get detailed responses.
How do we decide what to take from the messenger and what to ignore?
The quran says, take what the messenger commands you to take and leave what he commands you to leave. Its like Quran is the Divine Word and the messenger's voice is the means of making the Divine WOrds reach mankind.
Since Islam was completed in stages in a span of 23 years, there have been changes in laws during these years. There are abrogations and corrections (if you may), all brought to the final shape within the lifetime of the messenger.
We choose to ignore the laws which have been abrogated during those 23 years.
Hope this helps a bit.
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<font color=purple>Wanu nazzilu minal Qurani ma huwa
Shafaa un wa rahmatun lil mo'mineena wa la yaziduzzalimeena illa khasara.[/COLOR] |
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