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Muhammad as a partner with Allah

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Ron Webb View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ron Webb Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 October 2009 at 4:40pm
Originally posted by Nur_Ilahi Nur_Ilahi wrote:

The duty of the Messenger was not just to communicate the message, rather, he was entrusted with the most important task of explaining and illustrating that message. That is the reason why Allah Himself has commanded the following:

[Say: Obey Allah and obey the Messenger, but if you turn away, he (the Prophet) is only responsible for the duty placed on him (i.e. to convey Allah's Message) and you for that placed on you. If you obey him, you shall be on the right guidance. The Messenger's duty is only to convey (the message) in a clear way.] (An-Nur 24:54)

As the sura says, the Messenger's duty was only to convey the message clearly.  He was not to add anything to it -- neither explanations nor illustrations nor anything else.  If further explanations or illustrations had been necessary, surely Allah would have provided them.  Or are you suggesting that Muhammad was better at explaining and illustrating than Allah? 
 
Can you give me an example of something in the Quran that you think is unclear on its own, and in need of further explanation or illustration?
Addeenul �Aql � Religion is intellect.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Nur_Ilahi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 October 2009 at 5:33am
Originally posted by wrote:

I didn't say that Muhammad actually shares any of the functions of Allah.  I said that most Muslims treat him as if he did. 

There shows your ignorance. How do we treat ignorance? By learning, studying or reading. Perhaps as a start you could start here - just a gist of his noble characters and why Allah prefers him above others.
http://www.mohammad-pbuh.com/3/bestofcreation.htm
Originally posted by wrote:

.  I have already given several examples, the most glaring of which is how the words of Muhammad (the hadith) are "partnered" with the words of Allah (the Quran) to complete the Islamic scripture.  Isn't the Quran supposed to be perfect and complete in itself?
The Qur'an is the message, while the Hadith is the verbal translation of the message into pragmatic terms, as exemplified by the Prophet. While the Qur'an is the metaphysical basis of the Sunnah, the Sunnah is the practical demonstration of the precepts laid down in the Qur'an.

The duty of the Messenger was not just to communicate the message, rather, he was entrusted with the most important task of explaining and illustrating that message. That is the reason why Allah Himself has commanded the following:

[Say: Obey Allah and obey the Messenger, but if you turn away, he (the Prophet) is only responsible for the duty placed on him (i.e. to convey Allah's Message) and you for that placed on you. If you obey him, you shall be on the right guidance. The Messenger's duty is only to convey (the message) in a clear way.] (An-Nur 24:54)

This verse clearly tells us the overriding importance of Hadith to Muslims. They should be eager to learn and follow the teachings of the Prophet as expressed in Hadith. If we are negligent in this respect, it is we who have to answer before Allah.

http://www.islamonline.net/servlet/Satellite?c=Article_C&cid=1158658489489&pagename=Zone-English-Living_Shariah%2FLSELayout
Ilahi Anta Maksudi, Wa Redhaka Mathlubi - Oh Allah, You are my destination, Your Pleasure is my Intention.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ron Webb Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 October 2009 at 5:30pm

Originally posted by Hayfa Hayfa wrote:

From my understanding we follow the role model of Prophet Mohammed (PBUH). Which is why we have the sunnah etc. How else can we do that

The Quran says that Muhammad was "an excellent role model", and perhaps he might have been in seventh century Arabia.  But it doesn't say he is perfect or above criticism, and it certainly doesn't say his way is the best or the only possible way to live.

The Quran requires Muslims to "follow the messenger", i.e. Muhammad in his capacity as the conveyor of Allah's message, the Quran.  It does not imply any authority beyond that of the message itself.  Surely to believe otherwise, i.e. to suggest that Allah had shared His authority with Muhammad, would be to commit shirk.

Originally posted by Nur_Ilahi Nur_Ilahi wrote:

Now is there any proof that Muhammad shares any of the activity of [Allah]?

I didn't say that Muhammad actually shares any of the functions of Allah.  I said that most Muslims treat him as if he did.  I have already given several examples, the most glaring of which is how the words of Muhammad (the hadith) are "partnered" with the words of Allah (the Quran) to complete the Islamic scripture.  Isn't the Quran supposed to be perfect and complete in itself?

Addeenul �Aql � Religion is intellect.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Nur_Ilahi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 October 2009 at 9:52pm
Hi Ron,

Long time no see.

As a starter, I looked up the meaning of partner in the dictionary

It stated - A person who shares or is associated with another in some action or endeavor; sharer; associate.

In Islam, it is a shirk to associate a partner to Allah. The One God of the whole Universe, The Beginning, The End, The Eternal, The source of LIfe and Death.

Now is there any proof that Muhammad shares any of the activity of
Allah Al-Khaliq - Allah The Creator? Allah Ar-Rahman - Allah Most Gracious, Allah Ar-Raheem - Most Merciful, Allah Al-Ghafur - Most Forgiving, Allahuakbar - Allah the Greatest?

It is Allah Ar-Raheem that chose Muhammad as the Pinnacle of Creations and it is He that had given him the best position of a human being, and it was He that brought Muhammad up to HIm. All these positions were provided none other than to His Beloved Servant, HIs Beloved Messenger Muhammad Salallahualaihiwassalam.

It is the requirement of Allah that we obey His Messenger, His Slave and His beloved.

Back to your question, how would your beliefs or your behaviour be different if Muhammad actually were a partner to Allah?

Fat hope! This clearly contradicts the Shahadah - LAILAHAILALLAH.
There is no God but Allah - A God with no partners, no associates - Al-Ahad!

Therefore, it is a waste of time to answer your question.

ALLAH IS ONE! PERIOD!
Ilahi Anta Maksudi, Wa Redhaka Mathlubi - Oh Allah, You are my destination, Your Pleasure is my Intention.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Hayfa Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 October 2009 at 3:55pm
Hello Ron,

Welcome back. Hope you have been well.

From my understanding we follow the role model of Prophet Mohammed (PBUH). Which is why we have the sunnah etc. How else can we do that

Now are there people who take it too far.. probably. Others may be able to answer that better than I. But can it cross the line... yes it can.
When you do things from your soul, you feel a river moving in you, a joy. Rumi
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ron Webb Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 October 2009 at 3:06pm

Muslims claim they do not treat Muhammad as a partner to Allah, but I've never been able to reconcile that claim with their actual doctrine or practice.  Clearly, Muhammad occupies a central place in Islam, unlike any other human, but in many ways similar to Allah.  To be sure, Muslims will acknowledge that Muhammad is subordinate to Allah, but the sin of shirk does not stipulate equal partnership, and it seems to me that a junior partner is still a partner.

Consider the following: Muhammad is treated with a degree of reverence that for all intents and purposes is indistinguishable from that for Allah Himself.  To insult the Prophet is to commit blasphemy.  Muslim prayers, though not directly addressed to the Prophet, mention him frequently.  He is considered infallible in matters of doctrine.  In fact, his statements and his actions are doctrine: the hadith and sunna sit on your bookshelf alongside the Quran, and are considered similarly authoritative.

So my question is this: how would your beliefs or your behaviour be different if Muhammad actually were a partner to Allah?  How can I tell that you are not committing shirk?

Addeenul �Aql � Religion is intellect.
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