Tax / Jizyah |
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Shasta'sAunt
Senior Member Female Joined: 29 March 2008 Status: Offline Points: 1930 |
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The above is a great explanation of jizyah. It should be noted that if jizyah were indeed a "punishment" or a "religious tax" then ALL non-Muslims would have to pay: women, children, the poor, not just men who choose not to fight. Being a woman or poor does not make you less of a non-Muslim.
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�No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.�
Eleanor Roosevelt |
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Hayfa
Senior Member Female Joined: 07 June 2005 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 2368 |
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Thank you Shasta's Aunt.
It is amazing how some things, reactions are based on linguistics.. like the word or words 'in condition of submission." Often we have similar ideas or actions but the phrasing or words are different. English is actually one of the most complex languages. If you put the wrong word in for something the context or meaning comes out wrong. As a teacher of English to nonEnglish speakers this is the hardest concepts to teach. |
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When you do things from your soul, you feel a river moving in you, a joy. Rumi
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Shasta'sAunt
Senior Member Female Joined: 29 March 2008 Status: Offline Points: 1930 |
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You're welcome. Though I'm sure the jizyah will rise up again....
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�No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.�
Eleanor Roosevelt |
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Shasta'sAunt
Senior Member Female Joined: 29 March 2008 Status: Offline Points: 1930 |
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"But, you've sidetracked with illegitimate tu quoque claims. The problem I have is not with taxes. The problem I have is with PREJUDICIAL taxes. Why should I have to pay a certain tax simply because of my religious beliefs? Why should I be treated like a second-class citizen?" Considering the fact that this started out on a thread titled: Is Jesus God or not, and someone posted: "That's okay. You can believe what you want. Christians aren't going to threaten you with execution or a jizyah tax." Talk about sidetracking..... |
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�No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.�
Eleanor Roosevelt |
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Natassia
Senior Member Joined: 16 July 2009 Status: Offline Points: 177 |
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Original statement that I made a response to:
I think that kind of Law is too barbaric, too cruel, too harsh, too ruthless for my understanding. As a mother, I would try my best to protect my beloved children from any kind of harm even if it will affect me physically. Much more so is God AlMighty. He has the Power, The Will, The Means to bring up His Beloved Prophet to Him, saving him from humiliation in the hands of evil people.
Here lies the contradiction of the understanding of the Power of God. Leaving your beloved servant being cruelly tortured, mercilessly crucified in the hands of the Romans and the Jews does not depict a Powerful God to me. I would say, this kind of understanding of God is inferior. That's okay. You can believe what you want. Christians aren't going to threaten you with execution or a jizyah tax. This was not meant as a sidetrack. The person said that God should have saved his prophet from a humiliating death. If God really is Almighty, He would have been reaching down and taking matters into His own hands. Christians really believe that God is Almighty. Therefore, they do not feel it necessary to do God's work such as forcing conversion by threats of execution or a jizyah tax and second-class status.
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You diligently study the Scriptures because you think that by them you possess eternal life. These are the Scriptures that testify about me, yet you refuse to come to me to have life. (John 5:39-40)
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Natassia
Senior Member Joined: 16 July 2009 Status: Offline Points: 177 |
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Wrong. Certain organizations are exempt from being taxed if they qualify for tax-exemption. Being a religious group does not automatically imply tax-exemption.
There are many non-religious groups who are tax-exempt, and there are many non-Christian religious groups who are tax-exempt. Please review the Federal tax code for tax-exemption requirements.
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You diligently study the Scriptures because you think that by them you possess eternal life. These are the Scriptures that testify about me, yet you refuse to come to me to have life. (John 5:39-40)
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Natassia
Senior Member Joined: 16 July 2009 Status: Offline Points: 177 |
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@ Chrysalis
You wrote: I'm responding to this despite the fact that members pointed out this is off-topic. This should have been pointed out when Natassia brought up Jizyah in the first place. And well, thats how internet 'threads' work.
I didn't bring up jizyah in order to discuss Islamic tax code. If you notice, I was bringing up forced conversions by threat of execution or a jizyah tax. A Muslim then posted a response regarding bewilderment at non-Muslim dislike for the jizyah and the thread went from there. I was certainly not trying to divert the topic by any means. You wrote: I'm sorry this just doesn't make sense. I dont think ANY government allows ANY segment of its public to form small militias, and take up arms. That does not make a stable/peaceful society. Actually, they've been doing it on U.S. soil for quite some time. There are Muslim groups who get together and practice organized weapons tactics on private land in America. I'm surprised you are unaware of this fact. I suppose you've never heard of the Bill of Rights? Amendment II A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed. At what point did Muhammad make it mandatory that a court-of-law determine if someone may be executed? Or are you simply reinterpreting laws from 1400 years ago and trying to apply it to modern times and modern standards? If I recall, Muhammad never used a court system for Ka'b al-Ashraf. I had a hard time finding an Islamic website that would post Ibn Timiyya's, Ibn Qayyim al-Jawziyya's or Imam al-Shafii's statements regarding penalties if a Muslim murders a non-Muslim. F.A. Klein reiterates their statements, however, when he writes in his book The religion of Isl�m: A Muslim is not to be killed for an unbeliever.
I did come across this from the Tafsir al-Jalalayn for Quran 4:92:
It is not for a believer to slay a believer, in other words, no such slaying should result at his hands, except by mistake, killing him by mistake, unintentionally. He who slays a believer by mistake, when he meant to strike some other thing, as in the case of hunting or [shooting at] trees, but then happens to strike him with what in most cases would not kill, then let him set free, let him emancipate, a believing slave (raqaba denotes nasama, �a person�), an obligation on him, and blood-money is to be submitted, to be paid, to his family, that is, the slain person�s inheritors, unless they remit it as a charity, to him by waiving [their claim to] it. In the Sunna this [blood-money] is explained as being equivalent to one hundred camels: twenty pregnant, twenty female sucklings, twenty male sucklings, twenty mature ones and twenty young ones [not more than five years old]; and [the Sunna stipulates] that it is incumbent upon the killer�s clan, namely, his paternal relations [and not other relatives]. They share this [burden of the blood-money] over three years; the rich among them pays half a dinar, while the one of moderate means [pays] a quarter of a dinar each year; if they still cannot meet this, then it can be taken from the treasury, and if this is not possible, then from the killer himself. If he, the slain, belongs to a people at enmity, at war, with you and is a believer, then the setting free of a believing slave, is incumbent upon the slayer, as a redemption, but no bloodmoney is to be paid to his family, since they are at war [with you]. If he, the slain, belongs to a people between whom and you there is a covenant, a treaty, as is the case with the Protected People (ahl al-dhimma), then the blood-money, for him, must be paid to his family, and it constitutes a third of the blood-money for a believer, if the slain be a Jew or a Christian, and two thirds of a tenth of it, if he be a Magian; and the setting free of a believing slave, is incumbent upon the slayer. But if he has not the wherewithal, for [setting free] a slave, failing to find one, or the means to obtain one, then the fasting of two successive months, is incumbent upon him as a redemption: here God does not mention the transition to [an alternative to fasting which is] giving food [to the needy], as in the case of [repudiating one�s wife by] zihār, something which al-Shāfi�ī advocates in the more correct of two opinions of his; a relenting from God (tawbatan, �relenting�, is the verbal noun, and is in the accusative because of the implied verb).
Not only is the Islamic tax code prejudicial, but so is its penal code.
You wrote: I'm sorry, but 'Jizyah' is not a 'religous' tax. 'Zakat' , 'Fitrana' , 'Ushr' - these are 'religous taxes'. BECAUSE you HAVE TO pay Zakat, Ushr, Fitrana, when you enter the folds of Islam, and it is mandatory on you by law. If anything, the MUSLIMS are bieng 'taxed' based on thier religious beliefs. Non-Muslims on the other hand, are EXEMPTED from the above stated type of RELIGIOUS taxes. Had Islamic law believed in 'forcing' & 'punishing' its nonmuslim citizens, it would have herded nonmuslims in the same flock, and would have made Zakat, Ushr, Fitrana mandatory on them. It would not have been unfair either, 'one law for all' - but Islam went the extra mile to be just & fair , in order to respect their 'lack of belief'. i.e. why should you have to do what we do, if you don't believe in it. Unfortunately however, the ostrich hole is much much cozier for some. That doesnt mean you dont pay ANY taxes . . . you pay your fair share. Everything you listed are religious taxes. You pay some if you are a Muslim, you pay another if you are not. I have an issue with anything being forced upon someone simply for their religious beliefs. Many times the dhimmi were required to do more than just pay a tax. If you recall, the Jews of Khaibar were forced into submission and threatened with exile. They begged to remain in their homes in exchange for 50% of their production. Eventually, after the death of Muhammad, one of the Muslim rulers (I forget which one now) expelled the Jews from Khaibar. They weren't even allowed to live in their original homes. And the dhimmi were allowed to practice their religious beliefs subject to restrictions, the entire point of it was to provide material proof of the dhimmis' subjugation under Islamic rule. It was a tax simply to abase the dhimmi. From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dhimmi#Legal_and_social_status : In his classic treatise on the principles of Islamic governance, the 11th-century Shafi'i scholar Al-Mawardi divided the conditions attached to ��dhimma�� on top of the requirement to pay tribute into compulsory and desirable. The compulsory conditions included prohibitions on blasphemy against Islam, entering into sexual relations or marriage with a Muslim woman, proselytizing among Muslims, and assisting the enemies of Islam. The desirable conditions included a requirement to wear distinctive apparel, a prohibition to visibly display religious symbols, wine, or pork, ringing church bells, or loudly praying, a requirement to bury dead bodies unobtrusively, and finally, a prohibition on riding horses or camels, but not donkeys.[42] The latter restrictions were largely symbolic in nature and were designed to highlight the inferiority of dhimmis compared to Muslims.[43] In reality, the nature of the conditions imposed clearly point to an interest in safety. For example: - A Dhimmi was not allowed to build anything higher than a couple of stories high. It was common knowledge at this time that higher ground holds the advantage in a battle or war. - A Dhimmi could use donkeys rather than horses or camels. This is because a horse or camel, at that time, is the equivalent of a tank today and creates an advantage in warfare. Allowing Dhimmis to use a donkey ensured that they were able to continue transporting things and to avoid hindering their ability to earn income. Friedmann holds that the principle that "Islam is exalted, and nothing is exalted above it" (as Bukhari puts it) had many practical effects on the relationship between Muslims and unbelievers in Muslim lands.[44] According to Lewis, it would have been a theological and logical absurdity for traditional Islamic societies to give the "same treatment to those who follow the true faith and those who willfully reject it."[45] The treatment of dhimmis, including the enforcement of restrictions placed on them, varied over time and space, depending on both the goodwill of the ruler and the historical circumstances. The "dhimma" was the most oppressive in Morocco, where Jews were subjected to what Norman Stillman called "ritualized degradation",[46] as well as in Yemen and Persia.[47] The periods when Islamic states were strong generally coincided with more relaxed attitude towards dhimmis; however, treatment of non-Muslims usually became harsher when Islam was weak and in decline.[30]HYPERLINK \l "cite_note-stillman109-47"[48] Over time, the treatment of dhimmis tended to develop in cycles, such that periods of when restrictions imposed on dhimmis were relaxed were immediately followed by the periods of pious reaction when such restrictions came to be enforced again.[49] See also: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dhimmi#Humiliation_of_dhimmis |
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You diligently study the Scriptures because you think that by them you possess eternal life. These are the Scriptures that testify about me, yet you refuse to come to me to have life. (John 5:39-40)
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Sign*Reader
Senior Member Joined: 02 November 2005 Status: Offline Points: 3352 |
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Martha: Please don't consider Pakistan as an ideal till it is free from the neo colonial conditions, where a thief has been installed as the Prez,,, |
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Kismet Domino: Faith/Courage/Liberty/Abundance/Selfishness/Immorality/Apathy/Bondage or extinction.
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