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Shasta'sAunt View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Shasta'sAunt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 May 2009 at 3:31pm
Originally posted by Ron Webb Ron Webb wrote:

"I believe that most people are born with an innate sense of what is right and wrong.  (Research has suggested that even apes have that same innate sense, at least to some degree.)  It is certainly possible to distort that sense by bad parenting or indoctrination, but I believe that even the most dissolute scoundrel or the most conscienceless criminal can still get in touch with it if he or she can be convinced to search for it.  And I believe that every important moral principle and social value can be logically derived from those primal ethical instincts."

If this were the cae we would have no need for laws or punishment. Everyone would just automatically do the moral and ethical thing.
 
 
"I don't know if you would go that far, but apparently you are willing to trust your ethical instincts at least insofar as they help you to establish the authenticity of a prophet.  But if you can trust your own instincts, then I wonder why you need a prophet."
 
I trust my own instincts, but I was not born all knowledgeable.
 
"That is exactly the question I ask of religion itself.  If God really exists, why wouldn't He make that abundantly, irrefutably clear?"
 
I think it is clear. But perhaps I have a different standard than you. I don't need God to appear in Times Square and announce Himself. I see God's Work in the perfection of reproduction, the genius behind the mechanics of sight and sound, a million different ways.

"I see no reason to believe that a prophet should be anything other than a human being, just like the rest of us.  If he has received and accepted the Word of God, then he should of course live his life according to that belief, but why should he necessarily be any better at it than the rest of us?"

Prophets are just human beings like the rest of us. They receive the Word of God because of their strong moral character and total submission. A question, if you were going to elect a treasurer for your town or city, would you elect someone who had a scrupulous reputation for honesty and truthfulness whose life was an open book, or would you elect a three time felon who had done prison time for theft and robbery and who refused to answer any personal questions?
 
"But then, I guess I don't understand the need for prophets in the first place.  Why aren't we all prophets?  Why don't we all receive the Word of God directly?  Why should we have to rely on intermediaries?"
 
I don't know. Why aren't we all Albert Einstein or Vincent Van Gogh, or Mozart, or Hemingway, or Michael Jordan? Why do we need teachers or coaches or trainers? Why aren't we all born with a complete education, knowing everything there is to know about everything, with the ability to perform any task, partake in any sport, create great art, and write insightful literature?
�No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.�
Eleanor Roosevelt
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ron Webb Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 May 2009 at 9:24am

Originally posted by Shasta'sAunt Shasta'sAunt wrote:

If this were the cae we would have no need for laws or punishment. Everyone would just automatically do the moral and ethical thing.

I did say that our natural instincts can be distorted by bad parenting and indoctrination with false teachings.  It is for those people that we need laws and punishment.

Quote I trust my own instincts, but I was not born all knowledgeable.

Nor was I, but I think as a mature adult I have all the knowledge I need to be a good person.  Frankly, I think you do too.

It would be interesting, if I had the time, to go through the various religions and  break their teachings into three categories: (1) basic instincts and human needs (e.g. love, respect, community) that virtually all religions share and which all of us should know intuitively; (2) abstract ethical principles and institutions (justice, charity, government) that can be logically derived from those instincts and needs; and (3) arbitrary dogma (ritual, taboos) having nothing to to with either of the above two.  I think all of us have (1), even if it has been suppressed or distorted by false teaching; and all of us can discover (2), perhaps with help from others.  As for (3), I see no value in it.

Quote I think it is clear. But perhaps I have a different standard than you. I don't need God to appear in Times Square and announce Himself. I see God's Work in the perfection of reproduction, the genius behind the mechanics of sight and sound, a million different ways.

And you cannot imagine that these things could have evolved naturally.  That is the fundamental difference between us.

Quote Prophets are just human beings like the rest of us. They receive the Word of God because of their strong moral character and total submission. A question, if you were going to elect a treasurer for your town or city, would you elect someone who had a scrupulous reputation for honesty and truthfulness whose life was an open book, or would you elect a three time felon who had done prison time for theft and robbery and who refused to answer any personal questions?

As you pointed out in "Higher Authority", prophets are not earthly rulers (and I don't know why you allow Muhammad as an exception).  They are messengers, and messengers have no authority except to transmit the message.  The only qualifications required are a good memory to remember the message, and the integrity and reliability to transmit it without errors or alterations.  Most ordinary people could do the job.

Quote I don't know. Why aren't we all Albert Einstein or Vincent Van Gogh, or Mozart, or Hemingway, or Michael Jordan? Why do we need teachers or coaches or trainers? Why aren't we all born with a complete education, knowing everything there is to know about everything, with the ability to perform any task, partake in any sport, create great art, and write insightful literature?

All good questions.  Why does God save His best work for only a few lucky people, and leave the rest of us to muddle along with inferior abilities and incomplete information?  The Quran says that Allah guides who He wills, and leads others astray.  It never made any sense to me.

Addeenul �Aql � Religion is intellect.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ron Webb Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 May 2009 at 9:26am
Originally posted by myahya myahya wrote:

Why don't we all receive the Word of God directly?

This would be the worst way of guidance for an intellectual being (human being) with freewill.
 
This has nothing to do with free will.  I am just as free to choose to follow the Quran or not, regardless of whether it is given to me directly or through an intermediary.


Edited by Ron Webb - 03 May 2009 at 9:27am
Addeenul �Aql � Religion is intellect.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ron Webb Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 May 2009 at 9:45am

Originally posted by Chrysalis Chrysalis wrote:

Do you mean on an individual level? Isnt a bit arrogant to expect a personal miracle, or personal sign? We need to realises that we are but an atom (if not smaller) in this universe...

In other words, it really doesn't matter to God whether we believe or not.  That is my opinion; and yes, perhaps it is arrogant to expect otherwise.
 

Quote Generally speaking, the majority of people (humankind) DO believe in God, and/or a Higher Power, Creator. . . that means that God apparently DID make His existence quite clear to a vast majority of us. Some of us want our own individual, personal, customized signs - which is a bit arrogant, considering that we have signs all around us.

The majority of people believe in a huge variety of different Gods, so if it's the same God in each case, He's doing a lousy job of making His existence clear.  The fact that religious myths are so prevalent shows that people want God to exist, which (as I said to Nur_Ilahi in "Does God exist") is a very different question from whether He actually does exist.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Chrysalis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 May 2009 at 10:22am
Originally posted by Ron Webb Ron Webb wrote:

In other words, it really doesn't matter to God whether we believe or not.  

I dont think its fair to assume what matters (or not) to God. If someone made such an assumption about you - you would object, wouldnt you? You cannot make a conclusion about what matters to God or anyone else for that matter. 

Quote
The majority of people believe in a huge variety of different Gods, so if it's the same God in each case, He's doing a lousy job of making His existence clear.  The fact that religious myths are so prevalent shows that people want God to exist, which (as I said to Nur_Ilahi in "Does God exist") is a very different question from whether He actually does exist.
 
Essentially - people of different faiths (generally speaking) believe in some sort of Higher Power/ Creator / Divine Bieng. That is a common ground. Whether or not the rest of the message He conveyed successfully (according to you) - is another discussion. The mere fact that ppl DO believe in SOME sort of Creator/Power/Force means God DID make His presence/existence felt.
 
"O Lord, forgive me, my parents and Muslims in the Hereafter. O Lord, show mercy on them as they showed mercy to me when I was young."
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Chrysalis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 May 2009 at 10:30am
Originally posted by Ron Webb Ron Webb wrote:

 and (3) arbitrary dogma (ritual, taboos) having nothing to to with either of the above two. .  As for (3), I see no value in it.

I disagree. I think rituals do have some sort of value in them. Humans wouldnt be following rituals if they did not see value in it.
 
One can say rituals result in solidarity, unity, brotherhood, sense of community, discipline, sense of purpose.
 
We all follow rituals. . . religious or not. They also have symbolic/emotional value. I'm sure you follow many rituals in life too.
 
 
"O Lord, forgive me, my parents and Muslims in the Hereafter. O Lord, show mercy on them as they showed mercy to me when I was young."
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Chrysalis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 May 2009 at 10:46am
Originally posted by Ron Webb Ron Webb wrote:

If God really exists, why wouldn't He make that abundantly, irrefutably clear?

Chapter 2, Surah Baqarah:
 
Verse 118: 'Say those without knowledge: "Why does God not speak unto us? Or why comes not unto us a Sign?" So said the people before them words of similar import. Their hearts are alike. We have indeed made clear the Signs unto any people who hold firmly to faith' (in their hearts).
 
Verse 164:  . . .'(here) indeed are Signs for a people that are wise.'
 
Verse 210:  'Will they wait until God comes to them in canopies of clouds, with angels (in His train) and the question is (thus) settled? But to God do all questions go back (for decision)'.
 
Chapter 45: Surah Al-Jathiyah (The Kneeling Down)
 
3: Verily in the heavens and the earth, are Signs for those who believe.
 
4: And in the creation of yourselves and the fact that animals are scattered (through the earth), are Signs for those of assured Faith.
 
5: And in the alternation of Night and Day, and the fact that Allah sends down Sustenance from the sky, and revives therewith the earth after its death, and in the change of the winds,- are Signs for those that are wise.
 
6: Such are the Signs of Allah, which We rehearse to thee in Truth; then in what exposition will they believe after (rejecting) Allah and His Signs?
 
7: Woe to each sinful dealer in Falsehoods:
 
8: He hears the Signs of Allah rehearsed to him, yet is obstinate and lofty, as if he had not heard them: then announce to him a Penalty Grievous!
 
9: And when he learns something of Our Signs, he takes them in jest: for such there will be a humiliating Penalty.
 

 
 
 


Edited by Chrysalis - 03 May 2009 at 11:18am
"O Lord, forgive me, my parents and Muslims in the Hereafter. O Lord, show mercy on them as they showed mercy to me when I was young."
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ron Webb Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 May 2009 at 2:13pm
Originally posted by Chrysalis Chrysalis wrote:

I dont think its fair to assume what matters (or not) to God. If someone made such an assumption about you - you would object, wouldnt you? You cannot make a conclusion about what matters to God or anyone else for that matter.
 
You just finished telling me that the reason God would not reveal Himself to me personally is that I am so unimportant -- "we are but an atom (if not smaller) in this universe."  I'm just agreeing with you.

Quote Essentially - people of different faiths (generally speaking) believe in some sort of Higher Power/ Creator / Divine Bieng. That is a common ground. Whether or not the rest of the message He conveyed successfully (according to you) - is another discussion. The mere fact that ppl DO believe in SOME sort of Creator/Power/Force means God DID make His presence/existence felt.
 
No, it only means that people thought that God made His presence felt to them.
 
At one time, just about everybody believed that the earth was flat.  Does that mean that it really was flat?
Addeenul �Aql � Religion is intellect.
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