Arranged-Marriage Series

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Posted: 18 February 2009 at 9:23am

Ok, show me where exactly I've stereotyped non muslim culture? ....Are you still hung up on that Britney comment? .....Seriously, you dont get the point there or just clutching on to straws?

You said:

"Unarranged marriages are like what Britney and Jason did.....Fiascos!"

Sure looks like a generalization to me. You didn�t say something to the like of �I disagree with unarranged marriages because it leaves a window of careless behavior such as Britney and Jason� you seem to have made a generalization. So its not about being hung up on me focusing on Britney, its about making precise statements and not being misleading or stereotyping things that are not Muslim or not your culture. Can anyone explain to me if your comment in blue is true then what about the marriages in many many non-muslim countries where couples stay married after dating for so many years or were you referring strictly to Americans?

Whats the point you're trying to make here?

This was something I found when you and I were on the veil discussion.

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Posted: 18 February 2009 at 9:17am

Saladin:

"It is permissible for a Muslim man to see the woman to whom he intends to propose marriage before taking further steps so that he can enter into the marriage knowing what is ahead for him. Otherwise, if he has not seen her before marriage, he may not find her looks to his liking and may have regrets after he is married to her. The eye is the messenger of the heart; when the eyes meet, the hearts and the souls of man and woman may meet as well."

This is all I wanted to know.

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Posted: 18 February 2009 at 9:15am

Saladin you said:

(is this dependent upon cultural interpretation of hijab?).

If you recall I mentioned niqab several times in my response. Unless there is no distinction between hijab and niqab then this would make it all the more confusing to me when explaining my points in my posts and reading them. As far as cultural interpretation I'm not sure I understand what you mean here.

"I mentioned the Taliban coz despite being ultra conservative even they werent known to practise it the way you put it, ie. not showing the face of the woman to the prospective male (the man intending to marry her)."

Hmmmm. Consequently I have to ask, how do you know they wouldn�t keep the woman�s face hidden under their rule? Were you there in Afghanistan pre-U.S. invasion to see this or is this an assumption?

"Here you do a 180. Women in public?? Forget the Taliban but the prospective male in this scenario aint the prospective spouse???.... I rest my case."

I�m not doing any spinning, especially a 180. I think you are misunderstanding so let me bring us back. When mentioning a woman�s face being hidden to her perspective mate whether public or private and in response to Chrysalis� earlier point on biology and human attraction I�ll ask the simple question: if niqab is common, how can a prospective mate either the woman or male, find physical attraction to each other if the woman�s face is hidden in public [public meaning in the open-even when the Wali is present]? Now the question may be suggestive as an assumption on my part but it�s strictly hypothetical, and if I�ve gotten it wrong then please explain.

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Posted: 18 February 2009 at 9:07am

Wow! Didn�t expect such detailed responses. I will have to break up my responses in order to appropriately address everyone.

Chrysalis,

What do you mean by common methods [e.g. dowries] ?

Forgive me as the word methods, is confusing and not grammatically accurate in that context. I meant to say traditional gifts that are different among different ethnic peoples in these regions. For instance a Sudanese farmer may trade a certain amount of farm animals as a gift in exchange for the union between his son and another farmer�s daughter, or vice versa [or however it works]. Or, we can say a bedouin man may want to marry his daughter to another Bedouin [from a different clan] for political reasons. What I�m saying here is that arrange marriages even among Muslims are different in how they go about. It is not always systematic as you guys have made it [meaning, the family being go-betweens the man and woman or a Wali accompanying a woman].

"This hadith is enough proof that Islam does not approve of the practice"

I have no doubt Islam prohibits forced marriage but I guess where I�m coming from is how much of it is actually practiced in the world? Of course there are no statistical reports as to what is considered forced and actually choice. Isn�t it possible a family can actually force their child to choose but making it look like it�s not force? Just a thought.

"In another hadith, the Prophet made clear that ladies should not be married without being consulted first. Abu Hurairah quoted the Prophet as saying, "A matron should not be given in marriage except after consulting her, and a virgin should not be given in marriage except after her permission." (Al-Bukhari).

I have no doubts here.

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Posted: 18 February 2009 at 8:25am

Hyposonic : I have not once stereotyped here, if anything you (and others here) have stereotyped non-muslim culture.

Ok, show me where exactly I've stereotyped non muslim culture? ....Are you still hung up on that Britney comment? .....Seriously, you dont get the point there or just clutching on to straws?

Hyposonic : Besides from my brief understanding [and brief research] even Muslims cholars are divided on the issue here is one of the following Hadiths I found:

"From Anas that the Messenger of Allah said: And if one of the women of Paradise looked at the earth, she would fill the whole space between them the earth and the heaven with light, and would fill whatever is in between them, with perfume, and the veil of her face is better than the whole world and whatever is in it."Sahih al-Bukhari 8:572:1

Whats the point you're trying to make here?

'Trust everyone but not the devil in them'

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Posted: 18 February 2009 at 8:02am

Here's a scholarly opinion on how much a man can see of the woman he's intending to marry-

Looking at other than the face and hands of the woman he wishes to propose to
*Please appropriately reference this fatwa to: www.fatwa-online.com, thankyou!*
Question: Is it permissible for a man to look at other than the face and hands of the woman he wishes to propose to, such as looking at her hair and her neck?

Response: That which is apparent to me, and Allaah knows best, is that this is permissible without a previous agreement. He (sal-Allaahu `alayhe wa sallam) said that which means:

((If anyone�s heart settles on proposing to a woman, then he can look at that which will lead him to marry her)), [Translators note: This is the hadeeth of Jaabir ibn �Abdillaah (radhi-yallaahu 'anhu) who said: The Messenger of Allaah (sal-Allaahu `alayhe wa sallam) said:

((If any of you has proposed to a woman, and if he is able to look at that which will lead him to marry her, then he should do so))]

As regards a previous agreement, then it is not permissible to look at more than the face and hands.

Shaykh al-Albaanee
Fataawa Muhimmah li-Nisaa. al-Ummah � Page 138

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Posted: 18 February 2009 at 7:48am

Hyposonic, for your information -

It is permissible for a Muslim man to see the woman to whom he intends to propose marriage before taking further steps so that he can enter into the marriage knowing what is ahead for him. Otherwise, if he has not seen her before marriage, he may not find her looks to his liking and may have regrets after he is married to her. The eye is the messenger of the heart; when the eyes meet, the hearts and the souls of man and woman may meet as well.

Muslim reported Abu Hurairah as saying that a man came to the Prophet (peace be on him) and told him that he had contracted to marry a woman of the Ansar.

�Did you look at her?� the Prophet (peace be on him) asked.

"No," he said,

"Then go and look at her," said the Prophet (peace be on him),

"For there is something in the eyes of the Ansar,� meaning that some of them have a defect of their eyes Al-Mughira ibn Shu�bah said, I asked for a woman in marriage and Allah�s Messenger (peace be on him) asked me whether I had looked at her. When I replied that I had not, he said �Then look at her, for it may produce love between you.�

I went to her parents and informed them of the Prophet�s advice. They seemed to disapprove of the idea. Their daughter heard the conversation from her room and said, �If the Prophet (peace be on him) has told you to look at me, then look.� I looked at her, and subsequently I married her. (Reported by Ahmad, Tirmidhi, Ibn Majah, Ibn Hibban, and Darimi).

The Prophet (peace be on him) did not specify either to Mughirah or to the other man how much of the woman they were permitted to see. Some scholars are of the opinion that looking is limited to seeing the face and hands. However, it is permissible for anyone to see the face and hands as long as no desire is involved; therefore, if asking for woman in marriage is an exemption, obviously the man making the proposal should be able to see much more of the woman than that.

The Prophet (peace be on him) said, �When one of you asks for woman in marriage, if he is able to look at what will induce him to marry her, he should do so.� (Reported by Abu Daoud).

Some scholars have gone to one extreme or another in relation to this permission, but the best course seems to be the middle one. One researcher considers it quite appropriate in our time that the man who is proposing be allowed to see the woman as she normally appears before her father, brother, and other muharramah.

He says: In the context of the above hadith, he may even accompany her, together with her father or some other mahrem as chaperone, on her usual visits to relatives or to public places, while clad in full hijab. (Hijab denotes the proper Islamic dress. (Trans.))

In this way he will have the opportunity to get an insight into her reasoning, behavior, and personality. This is a part of the meaning of the hadith, �...to look at what will induce him to marry her.� (Al-Bahee al-Khooly, Al-Mar�ah Bain al-bayn al-bait wal-Mujtamah�).

If the man�s intention of marriage is sincere, he is permitted to see the woman with or without her and her family�s knowledge. Jarir ibn �Abdullah said concerning his wife, �(Before marriage) I used to hide under a tree to see her.�

From the hadith concerning al-Mughira we understand that the father of a girl cannot, out of deference to custom and tradition, prevent a suitor who is in earnest from seeing her, for customs and traditions must be governed by the Shari�ah. How is it possible that the Divine Law should subjected to the whims of human beings?

On the other hand, however, neither the father, the suitor, or the fiancee can stretch this permission to such an extent that the young man and woman, under the pretext of betrothal or engagement, go to movie theaters, clubs, and shopping places together without being accompanied by a mahrem of hers, a practice which has become common today among Muslims.

http://www.itsislam.net/articles/seeing_before_marriage.asp

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