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Sign*Reader
Senior Member Joined: 02 November 2005 Status: Offline Points: 3352 |
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Kismet Domino: Faith/Courage/Liberty/Abundance/Selfishness/Immorality/Apathy/Bondage or extinction.
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jusaskin
Groupie Joined: 28 July 2006 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 75 |
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Believer, Thanks! That's a nice selection, and I have run into some of them before .... which is where some of the frustration and confusion originates. I would imagine that Muslims will go to other verses and "help" us "understand" your selection. And I can see how and why they would do that. From what little I know of Islam, a devout follower will be convinced that the Quran is the ultimate authority over all other scriptures. Where the Quran conflicts with another, the Quran trumps the other. For a devout Christian it's the other way around, the Bible over the Quran. And that seems to be the basic problem. I wonder if it's even possible for the two to reconcile? There is something appealing in these words of 5:48, "... for every one of you did We appoint a law and a way, and if Allah had pleased He would have made you (all) a single people, but that He might try you in what He gave you, therefore strive with one another to hasten to virtuous deeds; to Allah is your return, of all (of you), so He will let you know that in which you differed;" I like the notion that we would "strive with one another to hasten to virtuous deeds", if it could be interpreted as both working toward loving God and our fellow man in a spirit of cooperation rather than competition. Even there, the Christian understands that good deeds are not meritorious toward the reward of eternity with God, in that Jesus has already gained that for us; but that should not prevent us from working side by side with the believers of Islam who hold a different view. In the effort to understand Islam, I'm often coming back to some things Paul said to Timothy in his second letter: "... strive not about words to no profit ... shun profane and vain babblings for they will increase unto more ungodliness ... foolish and unlearned questions avoid, knowing that they do gender strifes", but also considering, "... the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient, in meekness instructing those that oppose themselves ... ". I wonder sometimes if this is just "vain babblings" or do my conversations profit me and the other person? I hope it's the latter.
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joe
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jusaskin
Groupie Joined: 28 July 2006 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 75 |
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Sign Reader, "only the part that is a revealed from God(Allah) to an authentic messenger is a true word of God" We have the situation in the Bible where nothing can be verified as "authentic" if we must produce a document that claims to be written by Jesus, and it seems that would be the only authenticity that would satisfy a Muslim. Christians are convinced that our Scripture is accurate enough to convey the intended message of God through Jesus, and I am puzzled by how a Muslim can differentiate between what is "authentic" in our Scripture, and what is not. Perhaps we could take a specific incident and you can help me see how that is done. Are you aware of a much loved accounting of Jesus teaching the people called "the sermon on the mount"? One version is found in the gospel of Matthew, chapters 5, 6, and 7. I would like to know what of that teaching, if anything, can be determined by a Muslim to be a revelation from God. And while that might sound like a challenge, I only propose it as a tool for understanding. "So far your being friends with Muslims is concerned you need to read the Bio of the Prophet to see why those verses were revealed and the circumstances for them" This also confuses me! I was under the impression that whatever was found in the Quran was the exact words of God, and that the sole purpose of the Quran was to be a teaching for all mankind. Your statement sounds like one must read God's words as being conditional, and that other sources are needed to explain His intention. If I need to go elsewhere for clarification, wouldn't I be relying on a mere mortal to speculate on what God meant? I'm not trying to be quarrelsome, but that really threw me! I was just getting ready to think I understood how to read the Quran, but now I'm once again unsure. Can I take a verse like ... oh, let's say, 6:121 .... "Eat not of (meats) on which God's name hath not been pronounced: That would be impiety." Would that injunction need further clarification as to whether it applies to everyone? Is it meant just for people of that day, or today also? Or does it mean just what it says, without further qualifications? "I have been lot closer in friendship in business with Christians than Muslims." I had to smile at that one! I have the same sort of problem with Christians, especially when it comes to business transactions. I suppose we expect more (or maybe a better deal) of one who proclaims the same faith as yourself. It also proves that just because one professes a belief, it does not automatically mean that it is a sincere belief. "Historically speaking though the Muslim nations have been burnt by the Christian nations, look at the colonialism of last couple of centuries and the neo colonial control of the lands now" Separating religion from politics in world affairs is not my strong suite ..... if I even have one. When I look at Ireland, for instance, and try to figure out if Catholics and Protestants are religious or political antagonists, it seems a blur. Were the Crusades religious or political? Both, I imagine. Do we attribute religious motives to political motives at times? I'm pretty sure we do. Would it be better if we worked together to build a better world community, than to insist our way is the only way? I think so. Which reminds me ..... thanks for your willingness to try to help me understand Islam. That's why I'm here. |
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joe
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believer
Guest Group Joined: 08 January 2008 Status: Offline Points: 1397 |
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I like that verse too. There is a chance though that if this is an earlier verse, a better one has been put in place of it. Good Questions. I want to know - How do you know if a messanger is authentic? I have been asked repeatedly but Muslims -where is the Gospel that Jesus wrote? The Quran wasn't written by Mohammad. Allah ->Gabriel -> Mohammad -> Scribes YHWH->Apostles(who happened to be the sribes)
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John 3
16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. |
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Andalus
Moderator Group Joined: 12 October 2005 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 1187 |
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You are now "dumping", which is prohibited (see the thread at beginning of interfaith section). If you want to argue that a verse supports your view of your NT, then argue for that verse and show it to be as you say. "Dumping" is a game, which includes pasting a long line of verses with nothing more than an assertion labled on the paste. Please follow the rules. |
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A feeling of discouragement when you slip up is a sure sign that you put your faith in deeds. -Ibn 'Ata'llah
http://www.sunnipath.com http://www.sunniforum.com/forum/ http://www.pt-go.com/ |
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honeto
Senior Member Male Islam Joined: 20 March 2008 Location: Texas Status: Offline Points: 2487 |
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Hi Joe, you wrote: "Christians are convinced that our Scripture is accurate enough to convey the intended message of God through Jesus, and I am puzzled by how a Muslim can differentiate between what is "authentic" in our Scripture, and what is not." Joe, the simple answer to your question is because we the Muslims, if are convinced of anything is the absolute Oness of God, we are truly monothiestic without any ifs or buts. We may deny anything else but we are very hard headed (very firm) when it comes to accepting anything other than absolute One God. Chirstians may be conviced about the authenticity of their scripture as you said, I was too before I read it. There are some fundamantals upon which a belief is built, God and our salvation are the two most important ones for most of us. On both of those basic points Christians and the Bible failed to agree. Their stand on those two points does not convince me, and so many other people who were Christians before and after figuring out the facts by themselves, no longer accept its teaching and have become Muslims. We the Muslim believe that God is One, He is not begotten, nor he begets. So if we see anyone or anything saying otherwise, we know its not the truth. We believe that our salvation comes through following the guidance we are given by God, and through obedience to Him. God loves those who obey Him, for them He has promised forgiveness and a reward. If any tell us otherwise it's not the truth. We belief each one of us works toward his/her own destiny. If any tell us otherewise it must not be the truth. So based on that open eye knowledge upon which we build our belief, we are able to figure out the right from wrong, firmly. Hasan |
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The friends of God will certainly have nothing to fear, nor will they be grieved. Al Quran 10:62
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believer
Guest Group Joined: 08 January 2008 Status: Offline Points: 1397 |
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Why did Allah and Mohammad authenticate the Torah and Gospel? How was the Quran authenticated? |
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John 3
16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. |
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Andalus
Moderator Group Joined: 12 October 2005 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 1187 |
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Please provide proof of what you say, so that we may know what context you are referring to. Asking loaded questions that have unargued assumptions buried in them is not a sign of honest dialogue.
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A feeling of discouragement when you slip up is a sure sign that you put your faith in deeds. -Ibn 'Ata'llah
http://www.sunnipath.com http://www.sunniforum.com/forum/ http://www.pt-go.com/ |
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