IslamiCity.org Homepage
Forum Home Forum Home > General > General Discussion
  New Posts New Posts RSS Feed - hey heres an idea!  What is Islam What is Islam  Donate Donate
  FAQ FAQ  Quran Search Quran Search  Forum Search   Events   Register Register  Login Login

hey heres an idea!

 Post Reply Post Reply Page  123 4>
Author
Message Reverse Sort Order
AhmadJoyia View Drop Down
Senior Member
Senior Member


Joined: 20 March 2005
Status: Offline
Points: 1647
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AhmadJoyia Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: hey heres an idea!
    Posted: 12 December 2005 at 5:14pm

Thanks sis Andrea for sharing your comments.

I am anxiously looking forward to the reference from the Bible when you say "But there is one part in the bible that says that if you don't believe that Jesus died on the cross for our sins, then your whole faith is for nothing."

On the more, this picture is totally opposite (180 degree) when we see in the same bible (Matthew narration), how Jesus was preparing to avert this last hour situation. He was preparing with his materialistic (disciples to watch) as well as spiritualistic (prayers to God) means to avoid this. Kindly refer back to my posting on the 2nd page where this whole incidence is quoted.

If it is true as you ask us to beleive, why would he be so defensive or in other words reluctant to go for scrafice. It seems that he wasn't prepared for it as he his prayer to God clearly shows. On the same note, kindly note as what Bible records his last few words on the cross before crucifiction. Here it is "46About the ninth hour Jesus cried out in a loud voice, "Eloi, Eloi,[a] lama sabachthani?"�which means, "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?"["

 In view of all this evidence, contrary to your emotional beliefs, Jesus never planned nor did he ever professed that he came to atone the sins of others. However, it is totally a differnt understanding, once we find that he came to wash our sins (our own sins) by guiding us to the striaght path through our own efforts. Every one bears his own sins and hence are responsible for that. This is the law of nature, as this is the most just plan by the God.



Edited by AhmadJoyia
Back to Top
AhmadJoyia View Drop Down
Senior Member
Senior Member


Joined: 20 March 2005
Status: Offline
Points: 1647
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AhmadJoyia Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 December 2005 at 4:49pm

Sis Angela, thanks for your further elaboration. Though out of the scope of this topic, but I can't go without asking as what do you mean by "But, in Jerusalem, he sealed his new covenant and triumphed over death. " Which new covenant are you talking about, especially once we read from Bible that Jesus came not to change but to fulfill the law. Therefore bringing new covenant in picture, is as what I said, changing mind in the last hour. I didn't see the answer to this question of mine, in your reply.

The second point here as you said, is "triumphed over death". How is this achieved uniquely, which no other could do? I mean, in his life time, Jesus used to raise the dead to life by his God's permission.

Then what is big deal as what you think that he rose from dead. Don't you think God could do the same for him as well? Even this raising of dead is not unique to Jesus only, where OT also mentions some incidences of Prophets doing the same miracle. But all, through the will of God only.

On the more, which day is the day of Easter celebrations? The Friday (when supposedly the Christ was crucified) or Sunday (when he was resurrected alive)? It is really hard, for a person like me, to understand the celebrations of one day over the other, though only my Christian bro/sis may make this understand. Or, may be whole of the weekend, from Friday to Sunday is the celebrations. Yes, on a shorter note, who else would have joined you in these days of celebrations other than those Jews who conspired against Jesus as well? Just think about it. This shall be even more interesting to know, than imagined.

In the end, I can't leave my post without discussing when you say " Jesus in this respect was no different.  He to had to be tested.". Isn't this purely a human phenomena, totally in contrast to any divinity associated with him?

"This statement confuses me totally given the last 1400 years in that region?" Though you are not alone, but the presented discussion needs logical refutation and not the emotional one. I am anxiously waiting for such a response from any religious quarters. 



Edited by AhmadJoyia
Back to Top
AhmadJoyia View Drop Down
Senior Member
Senior Member


Joined: 20 March 2005
Status: Offline
Points: 1647
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AhmadJoyia Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 December 2005 at 4:21pm

I got your point, Bro Whisper, though the originator of this topic is one such example.

Back to Top
Whisper View Drop Down
Senior Member
Senior  Member

Male
Joined: 25 July 2004
Location: United Kingdom
Status: Offline
Points: 4752
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Whisper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 December 2005 at 2:19pm

It would definitely be interesting to know the response from my Christian brothers.

Yaar, who are you accusing of being Christian here? I mean before Andrea and Angela arrived.
Back to Top
ummziba View Drop Down
Senior Member
Senior  Member
Avatar
Female
Joined: 16 March 2005
Location: Canada
Status: Offline
Points: 1158
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ummziba Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 December 2005 at 6:35pm
Actually, in Arabic, Jerusalem is "al quds", the holy.  Ask anyone who lives there.
Sticks and stones may break my bones, but your words...they break my soul ~
Back to Top
Community View Drop Down
Guest Group
Guest Group
Avatar
Joined: 19 May 2005
Status: Offline
Points: 1135
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Community Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 December 2005 at 3:09pm

The land was holy before the birth of Jesus, and before the last prophet made the night journey to it. The holy land is right in the middle, between Europe, Asia and Africa, travelers from the west who went eastwards met there with travelers from the east who taveled westward. And those who found eachother chose to live there in peace. If you mix African with European and Asian you will get a person that is semetic. And out of this mixed people Allah chose His chosen people for messengers and prophets to declare that He is One God and He is the only one to be served. He chose them upon a knowledge He says in the koran.

Jerusalem "the house of peace" why would The Lord not declare it holy when it was the first place on earth where different people met and chose to live together in peace? Jerusalem.

For those who wish to learn something new and reflect, In arabic "Jaar" means "neighbour" so Jarusalem would mean "the neighbour" of peace.



Edited by Community
Back to Top
Andrea View Drop Down
Groupie
Groupie
Avatar
Joined: 14 September 2005
Location: Canada
Status: Offline
Points: 64
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Andrea Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 December 2005 at 10:44am

Those who have been living there in Jerusalam, or for that matter anywhere on this earth, since centuries, as a basic human right, has the right to stay there and even have the right to fight legally for their right of self defence against all atrocities of the aggressors to occupy their land on such flimsy pretexts of holiness. Yes, for those who consider it any religious attachement to any place, they can purchase the land and live in that area, but they don't have any right to bar others not to do the same.    

And to that I say, Amen!!  I agree wholeheartedly with you on that.  I think it is rude to come into someone's home bearing arms and kicking them out of it.  Not only is it rude, but it is also primitive and barbaric.  That is why we have an economic system and laws that allow for the sale of land, the issuing of Visas to visit countries, and fast airplanes to to visit them any time one wishes. 

However you and I know very well that the issue goes much deeper than that.  It originates since thousand's of years and the arrogance of the Jews in this case has made it impossible to have peace in this area.  Sure Jerusalem is holy to Christians, and at one time we did try to occupy Jerusalem, but honestly, I don't see Christians today claiming physical ownership of it.  We claim it in our hearts maybe, but I don't see a multitude of Christians trying to drive out both Jews and Muslims so that we have it all to ourselves.  The conflict here is between Jews and Muslims.  And in my humble opinion, I think it's the Jews who have not been able to "share" the place.  They haven't been "playing nice". 

So going back to your question:

It is difficult to understand as how one spiritual thing is more or less important than the other.

Well my friend, in order to understand this you would have to understand how our faith works.  But there is one part in the bible that says that if you don't believe that Jesus died on the cross for our sins, then your whole faith is for nothing.  This means that you could believe everything else, but if you don't believe this one little part then you've missed the whole point, and his sacrifice was lost on you.  Kind of like hearing a joke but missing the punch line!!  You don't get to laugh!!

Peace.

Back to Top
Angela View Drop Down
Senior Member
Senior  Member
Avatar

Joined: 11 July 2005
Status: Offline
Points: 2555
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Angela Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 December 2005 at 9:32am

You happened to forget that such spiritual things are not unique to Jerusalam, but to every where, where ever Jesus went to preach. Isn't it? It is difficult to understand as how one spiritual thing is more or less important than the other. I can quote, and probably you would agree with me, that there are many significant spiritual attachments of Jesus at places other than Jerusalam as well. The only way this last hour spirituality overrides all other occassions is understood to make sense when it is made to realize that some how Jesus changed his mind in this last hour than from rest of his whole life mission. Is this what you are telling us? Think about it? In my humble view, the correct position for my Christian brothers over Jerusalam should be that since Jesus was the continuation of Prophets sent to people of the Isreal, hence all such places which were holy prior to him, thus become holy to people beleiving in him.

Brother, there are many places that are Holy to Christians.  The location of the Sermon on the Mount, the site of his first Miracle, Bethlehem, Egypt.  But, in Jerusalem, he sealed his new covenant and triumphed over death.  This is greater than any sermon or healing.  This was for the entire world.  The Atonement and Resurrection are leaps and bounds ahead of turning water to wine or casting out devils from Mary Magdeline.  I suppose since you only see Jesus as a Prophet and you do not believe in these events, you cannot understand how they speak to the heart of a Christian.  The days between Palm Sunday and Easter are so sacred to all Christians, its hard to express that to anyone who doesn't believe.

And as for Jesus's doubts.  Now, remembering I'm LDS and so I can't speak for other denominations on this one.  We believe that our souls existed before creation.  When we are born here, a veil is pulled over our eyes so we cannot remember our lives with God.  This is so we can be tested.  We believe in order to progress eternally, we must go through certain trials.  Jesus in this respect was no different.  He to had to be tested.  We cannot even imagine what he went through in the Garden.  It said he bleed from every pour.  So, how can we question if he had a moment in failing?  Would I have been any stronger?  No, not even close.  But, in the end, doubt or not, he went forth and prayed for those that killed him.  "Father, they know not what they do." 

And yet, in that last moment, he failed not, instead he submitted himself to God entirely.

Luke 23:46

And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost.

And as for Muslims not finding anything special about Jerusalem?  This statement confuses me totally given the last 1400 years in that region?

Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  123 4>
  Share Topic   

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down

Forum Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 12.03
Copyright ©2001-2019 Web Wiz Ltd.