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Did God turn his back on Israel and Islam?
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786SalamKhan View Drop Down
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Originally posted by Kish Kish wrote:



Did Ishmael submit to God�s will? No. He did not follow the God of Abraham, the God his father served. Can you show me where Ishmael submitted to God that would help me a lot?

Can you show me where he did not? That would help.
Originally posted by Kish Kish wrote:


�I (Jesus) set the pattern for you.� (John 13:15) Not Muhammad!

�Continue following me.� (John 21:19) Not Muhammad!

�All authority* has been given me in heaven and on the earth. (Matt 28:18) Not Muhammad!

(Matt 10:5-6)--- Jesus sent out these 12 after giving them instructions: "Don't take the road leading to other nations, and don't enter any Samaritan town. Instead, go to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.


(Matthew 15:24) He (Jesus) replied, "I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel."

In John 16: 12 & 13, Jesus says:

�I have yet many things to say unto you,

but you cannot bear them now.

Howbeit when he, the spirit of truth, is come,

He will guide you into all truth; �

http://www.islamreligion.com/articles/201/
http://www.islamreligion.com/articles/198/ Allah knows best.
Originally posted by Kish Kish wrote:



Say: "People of the Book, you do not stand on anything, until you perform the Torah and the Gospel [Injil], and what was sent down to you from your Lord." ... S. 5:68 Arberry

Say (O Muhammad SAW)] "Shall I seek a judge other than Allah while it is He Who has sent down unto you the Book (The Qur'an), explained in detail." Those unto whom We gave the Scripture [the Taurat (Torah) and the Injeel (Gospel)] know that it is revealed from your Lord in truth. So be not you of those who doubt. S. 6:114 Al-Hilali & Khan

Even your Quran openly acknowledges the important of obeying the Injil (Gospel) and Muslims are telling people not to, wow!

Narrated Ubaidullah:  "Ibn 'Abbas said, 'Why do you ask the people of the scripture about anything while your Book (Quran) which has been revealed to Allah's Apostle is newer and the latest? You read it pure, undistorted and unchanged, and Allah has told you that the people of the scripture (Jews and Christians) changed their scripture and distorted it, and wrote the scripture with their own hands and said, 'It is from Allah,' to sell it for a little gain. Does not the knowledge which has come to you prevent you from asking them about anything? No, by Allah, we have never seen any man from them asking you regarding what has been revealed to you!'  (Translation of Sahih Bukhari, Holding Fast to the Qur'an and Sunnah, Volume 9, Book 92, Number 461)" 

The Quran only says to believe in the (original) previous scriptures that were sent to the Prophets of old.
Originally posted by Kish Kish wrote:


I agree because Muhammad earlier followers believed the Injil It was only until Ibn-Khazem in 1064 made the accusation against the corruption of the Scriptures without any historical facts to prove it.

http://thedebateinitiative.com/2011/03/29/where-are-the-original-torah-and-gospel/

Originally posted by Kish Kish wrote:


Ps. 83:2, 6 For, look! your very enemies (Ish′ma�el�ites ) are in an uproar; And the very ones intensely hating you have raised [their] head. . . the Ish′ma�el�ites!!!

Because of Ishmael�s dismissal and hatred for Isaac, his heart became harden, that is why even today there is still great animosity between Arabs and Israelis, this hatred was handed down to his descendants. 



"'How can you say, "We are wise, for we have the law of the LORD," when actually the lying pen of the scribes has handled it falsely?(Jeremiah 8:8)
Also it says Ishmaelites but not Ishmael himself, Israel didn't even exist during Ishmael's life.
Originally posted by Kish Kish wrote:


First and foremost, Allah is nowhere associated with the children of Israel, not even Ishmael or Hagar. The first to associate Allah with the children of Israel was only Muhammad, not the prophets of the Holy Scriptures.

Allah literally mean "God" in arabic, the Arab Jews and Christians before Muhammad already used this. And who or what exactly is "Yahweh" and/or "Jehovah"? That's just a Christian transliteration of how the Tetragrammaton would supposedly sound or be read even though it is forbidden. The Jews who speak Hebrew call G-d "Elohim", "Eloah" or "El Shaddai" and Jesus who spoke aramaic would have called him "Alaha" both similar to "Allah".
And Allah knows best.



Edited by 786SalamKhan - 18 January 2013 at 1:34pm
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Assalamu alaikum.

I always call for commonsense and reasoning prevail in this forum. There is no need turning us as unintelligent folks and driven to hair splitting arguments.
Isaac was born when Ishmael was 16 years or so. It shows that Ishmael was also in Palestine then and not in Makka. This was the moment Ishmael was driven away. At sixteen years old his mother left him looking for water. The child was crying etc. Nobody question this. If actually both are normal human beings and behaved as we behave today, I have never seen in our society where mocking between brothers do not take place. If this is odd in today's Western Christian culture, I am sure it is not so in the then Jewish Muslim culture.

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Originally posted by honeto honeto wrote:

Kish,
....and that misinterpretation is ??
and what is this mistreatment of Isaac by Ishmael, from where do you get that?
Hasan


I can answer in part;

9 And Sarah saw the son of Hagar the Egyptian, which she had born unto Abraham, mocking.

10 Wherefore she said unto Abraham, Cast out this bondwoman and her son: for the son of this bondwoman shall not be heir with my son, even with Isaac.

11 And the thing was very grievous in Abraham's sight because of his son.

12 And God said unto Abraham, Let it not be grievous in thy sight because of the lad, and because of thy bondwoman; in all that Sarah hath said unto thee, hearken unto her voice; for in Isaac shall thy seed be called.

13 And also of the son of the bondwoman will I make a nation, because he is thy seed.  (the book of Genesis)
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Points: 2487 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote honeto Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 January 2013 at 3:26pm
Kish,
....and that misinterpretation is ??
and what is this mistreatment of Isaac by Ishmael, from where do you get that?
Hasan
The friends of God will certainly have nothing to fear, nor will they be grieved. Al Quran 10:62
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Originally posted by honeto honeto wrote:

Kish,
that goes against what God said in Genesis 21:18 where God himself is quoted to have said:
"18 Arise, lift up the lad, and hold him in thy hand. For I will make him a great nation."
So, the problem is in the contents, either one can be true. God says he will make him a great nation.
I know God does not say two different things at once. So the problem is in the book.
Hasan

Hasan, according to Genesis 17:20 God said �He will certainly produce twelve chieftains.� Was that not a great nation as God promised despite the fact that Isaac was being mistreated badly by Ishmael?

Just as God promised to preserve and protect his word which he did, God promised Ishmael to be a great nation which he did, how is that two different things?

The problem Hasan, is not God and his inspired contents but Muslims misinterpretation of God�s inspired contents.

So, you�re right God does not say two different things at once.
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Points: 2487 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote honeto Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 January 2013 at 3:40pm
Kish,
that goes against what God said in Genesis 21:18 where God himself is quoted to have said:
"18 Arise, lift up the lad, and hold him in thy hand. For I will make him a great nation."

So, the problem is in the contents, either one can be true. God says he will make him a great nation.
I know God does not say two different things at once. So the problem is in the book.
Hasan
The friends of God will certainly have nothing to fear, nor will they be grieved. Al Quran 10:62
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I am reminded of a line from Lord of the Rings, by C.S.Lewis, regarding gollum...
'I feel that he too has his part that he must play...'
 
Ishmael too has his part to play, and Muhammad is the one to play out this part, in this drama called life which the Creator has laid out for us.  It is all written in the Bible for those with eyes to see.
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Points: 237 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Kish Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 January 2013 at 1:52pm

Hasan, like the Jews/Israel, Ishmael eventually turned his back on the God of Abraham which resulted in God turning his back on Ishmael. God kept his promise as he always does, Ishmael had twelve sons and became a nation but like the Nation of Israel they did not keep following the God of Abraham and Isaac.   

As shown in the scriptures I posted he was not buried along with his family, an heir of the family, did not serve Abraham�s God, Jehovah. In fact they hated his God, this is very well documented.  

Ps. 83:2, 6 For, look! your very enemies (Ish′ma�el�ites ) are in an uproar; And the very ones intensely hating you have raised [their] head. . . the Ish′ma�el�ites!!!

Because of Ishmael�s dismissal and hatred for Isaac, his heart became harden, that is why even today there is still great animosity between Arabs and Israelis, this hatred was handed down to his descendants.  

I only say this to show as I mentioned earlier, God would not use any descendants of his because of these reasons and because of the promise he made to Abraham and Sarah NOT Abraham and Hagar.
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