Tax / Jizyah |
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Hayfa
Senior Member Female Joined: 07 June 2005 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 2368 |
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Thank you Shasta's Aunt.
It is amazing how some things, reactions are based on linguistics.. like the word or words 'in condition of submission." Often we have similar ideas or actions but the phrasing or words are different. English is actually one of the most complex languages. If you put the wrong word in for something the context or meaning comes out wrong. As a teacher of English to nonEnglish speakers this is the hardest concepts to teach. |
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When you do things from your soul, you feel a river moving in you, a joy. Rumi
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Shasta'sAunt
Senior Member Female Joined: 29 March 2008 Status: Offline Points: 1930 |
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The above is a great explanation of jizyah. It should be noted that if jizyah were indeed a "punishment" or a "religious tax" then ALL non-Muslims would have to pay: women, children, the poor, not just men who choose not to fight. Being a woman or poor does not make you less of a non-Muslim.
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�No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.�
Eleanor Roosevelt |
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Shasta'sAunt
Senior Member Female Joined: 29 March 2008 Status: Offline Points: 1930 |
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Edited by Shasta'sAunt - 07 August 2009 at 6:47am |
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�No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.�
Eleanor Roosevelt |
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Akhe Abdullah
Senior Member Male Joined: 19 November 2008 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 1252 |
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As Salamu Alaikum,Chrysalis.good job [:)JazakAllah Kheiran for starting a new topic,incase she missed it on the other one.
[Originally posted by Natassia] But these are taxes levied upon a people simply for their faith. They are not permitted to bear arms, form militias, and protect themselves . No, what happens is the Islamic ruling authority acts like a mafia syndicate and forces the people of the Book to pay for "protection Do the 'mafia' return protection money. [IMG]smileys/smiley36.gif" align="middle" />That's not tax that's extortion Edited by Akhe Abdullah - 06 August 2009 at 9:15am |
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Chrysalis
Senior Member Joined: 25 November 2007 Status: Offline Points: 2033 |
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I am continuing the discussion Natassia started in another Thread. This is an oft discussed issue, and one that non-muslims usually have a problem with.
The Islamic way of dealing with warfare and its religous minorities is FAR MORE just and fair than any other policy today. Your feelings as a non-muslim are respected, especially because it is possible that the (Islamic) army may very well be fighting people of your faith during war. E.g SUPPOSE you are a Jew, and your country is at war with Israel - you are EXEMPTED from fighting against your brothers/sisters in faith. Muslims are not extended the same courtesy when it comes to warfare on their own brethren (in modern-day societies. See: war on terror). People will label you an outsider, an alien and will question your loyalty/patriotism for your country. Islam on the other hand, doesnt put you in that situation, and doesnt make you 'choose'. It accepts this natural affiliation, and thus makes room for it. We dont say 'Either you are with us, or you are against us' when it comes to war. We say, you are welcome to stay out of it, and sit by the sidelines. And yet, people will ignore that generosity, and whine about Jizyah. The same Jizyah which will be used in protecting the nonmuslim families from attacks by an invading army/threat. It will be the muslims in the army laying thier lives for thier protection against any threat against them. You are exempted from serving in the army, you are not required to contribute to the Jihad fund, the least you can do is pay a substantially lesser amount called Jizyah, which will in turn be USED on your own people in cases and situations of war, or whenever you need the army's help, lives and aide in cases of natural disasters. . . . . . The noted historian Sir Thomas W. Arnold in his Call to Islam, states: � This tax was not imposed on the Christians, as some would have us think, as a penalty for their refusal to accept the Muslim faith. Rather, it was paid by them in common with the other dhimmis or non-Muslim subjects of the state whose religion precluded them from serving in the army, in return for the protection secured for them by the arms of the Muslims. When the people of Hirah contributed the sum agreed upon, they expressly mentioned that they paid this jizyah on condition that �the Muslims and their leader protect us from those who would oppress us, whether they be Muslims or others.�
If ANY citizen, including Muslims perform an injustice upon another - they are liable under Shariah law. If a christian or jew has been harmed by a muslim - that muslim can be charged, held accountable and punished. There are numerous instances from history. So yes, nonmuslims have a right to defend themselves. Even the muslim army is responsible for defending and protecting them: In his covenant with the people of certain cities near Al-Haira, Khalid ibn Al-Walid, may Allah be pleased with him, recorded: �If we are able to protect you, we deserve the collection of jizyah; otherwise, we shall not offer you protection.� The seriousness with which the Muslims took their covenants with the non-Muslims is well illustrated by the following incident. During the reign of the second caliph, `Umar Ibn Al-Khattab, the Roman emperor Heraclius raised a huge army to repel the Muslim forces. It was thus incumbent upon the Muslims to concentrate their efforts on the battle. When the commander of Muslims, Abu �Ubaydah (may Allah be pleased with him) heard this news, he wrote to his officials in all conquered cities in Syria and ordered them to return the jizyah which had been levied in those cities. He also addressed the public saying; �We are returning your money because we know that the enemy has gathered troops. By the terms stipulated in the covenant, you have obliged us to protect you. However, since we are now unable to fulfill these conditions, we have returned to you what you paid to us. We shall abide by the terms agreed upon in the covenant, if Allah helps us to rout the enemy.� Thus, a huge amount was taken form the state treasury and returned to the Christians. They prayed for and blessed the Muslim commanders. They exclaimed, �May Allah help you to overcome your enemies and return you to us safely. If the enemy were in your place, they would never have returned anything to us, but rather they would have taken all our remaining property.� The jizyah was also imposed on Muslim men who could afford to buy their way out of military service. If a Christian group elected to serve in the state�s military forces, it was exempted from the jizyah. Historical examples of this abound: the Jarajima, a Christian tribe living near Antioch (now in Turkey), by undertaking to support Muslims and to fight on the battle front, did not have to pay the jizyah and were entitled to a share of the captured booty. When the Islamic conquests reached northern Persia in 22 A.H., a similar covenant was established with a tribe living on the boundaries of those territories. They were consequently exempted from jizyah in view of their military services. Other examples are to be found during the history of the Ottoman Empire: the Migaris, a group of Albanian Christians, were exempted from the jizyah for undertaking to watch and guard the mountain ranges of Cithaeron and Geraned (which stretch to the Gulf of Corinth). Christians, who served as the vanguard of the Turkish army for road repairs, bridge construction and so on were exempted form the kharaj. As a reward, they were also provided with some lands, free of all taxes. The Christians of Hydra were exempted when they agreed to supply a group of 250 strong men for the (Muslim) naval fleet. The Armatolis, Christians from southern Romania, were also exempted from the tax, for they constituted a vital element in the Turkish armed forces during the sixteenth and seventeenth centuries. The Mirdites, an Albanian Catholic clan who lived in the mountains of northern Scutari, were exempted on the condition that they would offer an armored battalion in wartime. The jizyah was also not imposed on the Greek Christians who had supervised the building of viaducts, which carried water to Constantinople, nor on those who guarded the ammunition in that city, as just compensation for their services to the state. However, Egyptian Muslim peasants exempted from military service was still required to pay the jizyah.� Excerpts taken from Islamonline.net Edited by Chrysalis - 06 August 2009 at 6:53am |
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"O Lord, forgive me, my parents and Muslims in the Hereafter. O Lord, show mercy on them as they showed mercy to me when I was young."
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Chrysalis
Senior Member Joined: 25 November 2007 Status: Offline Points: 2033 |
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Yes - I'm responding to this despite the fact that members pointed out this is off-topic. This should have been pointed out when Natassia brought up Jizyah in the first place. And well, thats how internet 'threads' work.
I'm sorry this just doesn't make sense. I dont think ANY government allows ANY segment of its public to form small militias, and take up arms. That does not make a stable/peaceful society. FYI "Taking up arms" does not mean simply mean owning a gun - it means to 'wage war', "prepare to fight" etc. So there is a big diff b/w just owning a weapon/gun/sword versus 'taking up arms'. EVEN MUSLIM individuals will be hindered by the govt from forming small militias of thier own, and 'taking up arms' on thier own, without any formal warfare . Flip the coin. Do you think ANY non-muslim govt would allow muslims to 'take up arms' on thier soil? would they allow militias to be formed? No sensible govt/authority would allow that. The 'taking up arms' rule is a standard for all. As for 'dont allow nonmuslims to protect themselves' - thats baloney. Under Shariah, a nonmuslim has as much right to individually defend him/herself from danger, as a muslim. They have the legal right to go to court, and sue a muslim for any harm. They are just not allowed to 'take up arms' against fellow citizens or revolt against the givernment, or side/fight for the enemy nations of thier govt. Something which was VERY COMMON in older times, hence this law was put into place. The nonmuslims, during times of war, would side with the other nonmuslim armies against the ruling muslim govt. This rule does not apply to weapons that are used for safety/personal defence/hunting etc. Whether some Christian churches choose to encourage their congregations to pay a 10% tithe or not is up to them; however, it is not mandatory and no one is punished for not doing it. I'm sorry, but 'Jizyah' is not a 'religous' tax. 'Zakat' , 'Fitrana' , 'Ushr' - these are 'religous taxes'. BECAUSE you HAVE TO pay Zakat, Ushr, Fitrana, when you enter the folds of Islam, and it is mandatory on you by law. If anything, the MUSLIMS are bieng 'taxed' based on thier religious beliefs. Non-Muslims on the other hand, are EXEMPTED from the above stated type of RELIGIOUS taxes. Had Islamic law believed in 'forcing' & 'punishing' its nonmuslim citizens, it would have herded nonmuslims in the same flock, and would have made Zakat, Ushr, Fitrana mandatory on them. It would not have been unfair either, 'one law for all' - but Islam went the extra mile to be just & fair , in order to respect their 'lack of belief'. i.e. why should you have to do what we do, if you don't believe in it. Unfortunately however, the ostrich hole is much much cozier for some. That doesnt mean you dont pay ANY taxes . . . you pay your fair share. |
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"O Lord, forgive me, my parents and Muslims in the Hereafter. O Lord, show mercy on them as they showed mercy to me when I was young."
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Shasta'sAunt
Senior Member Female Joined: 29 March 2008 Status: Offline Points: 1930 |
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"I am NOT taxed based on my religious convictions."
But churches, religious groups and religious leaders are exempt from being taxed based on their religious convictions and affiliations. Therefore by default you, I, and everyone not belonging to the clergy are being taxed merely because we are not a part of the clergy or a religious organization.
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�No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.�
Eleanor Roosevelt |
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Natassia
Senior Member Joined: 16 July 2009 Status: Offline Points: 177 |
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@ Shasta's Aunt
You wrote: Christians and Jews were not forbidden to take up arms. They were given the choice. If they chose not to fight, then they had to pay the tax. Something which does not exist in any government today. But I get your meaning. I'm forced to pay taxes for protection: the police and the military. In fact, I would be forced to pay taxes even if I was actively serving in the military. But are Christians and Jews allowed to protect themselves from Muslims by forming their own militias? Americans, for example, under the U.S. Constitution, may bear arms and form militias and even overthrow the government if its leaders (Congressmen, President, etc.) are violating the U.S. Constitution. Also, if a Christian or a Jew chose to be a conscientious objector rather than fight in the Islamic army, why should they be taxed for it? Are Christians and Jews, under shariah law, allowed to bear arms in their own homes and use them against an intruder (whether they be a Muslim or not?) Are Christians and Jews allowed to protect themselves from injustices committed by Islamic leaders? Are they allowed to fight back? You wrote: But Jesus told his followers to follow the Laws of Moses. Are you making a distinction between those who follow Jesus and the gentiles who claim to be Christians? You know, I always wonder why people get so hung up on the Mosaic Law. Jesus fulfilled it. He brought it to completion, and has ushered in the new covenant. He certainly give many commands to his followers, and he told them that if they truly loved him then they would obey him. I wonder if you can pick out what those commands are. In Jesus Christ, there is no Gentile or Jew, female or male, slave or free. You wrote: I think you are right about that. Look at all of those church leaders who have 12 homes and private jets. They don't even have to pay income taxes. Must be nice... I wonder what Jesus would think? Wait, we already know don't we: Matthew 19: 23Then Jesus said to his disciples, "I tell you the truth, it is hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven. 24Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God."With God, all things are possible. You wrote: Well, since so many countries are poor, 2.5 % of nothing is nothing.... Ah ah ah....Now wait a minute. I thought there was only ONE Islamic Ummah. So, if you've got several oil-rich Islamic nations full of wealthy Muslims (not to mention all the wealthy Muslims in Western countries), then where is all their 2.5% going? You wrote: Churches and other Christian groups are exempt from paying taxes in the U.S. Isn't that prejudicial? Aren't I a citizen of this country with the same rights? Aren't these organizations receiving the same benefits, protection, use of public facilities as I am? Aren't they under the same obligations as citizens as I am? Not all churches and Christian groups have tax-exempt status. And there are plenty of other organizations affiliated with other religions that also qualify for tax exemption. Your taxes pay to keep the roads safe. If you caused a car accident while driving to work one day, my taxes would be going to help pay for the police officers and fire & rescue who would be dispatched to save your life as well as protect the lives of others. My taxes would be going to pay for the investigation into the cause of the crash, and if you are on Medicare or Medicaid, then my taxes will also go to pay for your medical care. You wrote: Now I'm wondering why it's legal for people to gamble in churches but not elsewhere? Running gaming halls is illegal where I live, but the churches have lotteries and bingo every week. Isn't it prejudicial against those who wish to gamble to be barred by the law from doing so, yet churches are exempt. Not only exempt, but they don't have to pay taxes on the proceeds. Besides, didn't Jesus chase the gamers and money lenders out of the temples? Wait, that must not apply to the gentiles.... Bingo and lotteries being held for charitable causes probably don't qualify as "gambling." Plenty of town fire halls hold bingo meetings that are not affiliated with religion. Really, perhaps you should research the tax code. What angered Jesus was the fact that people were turning the Temple into a marketplace and a den of thieves. Are some churches "marketplaces" and "dens of thieves"? Oh, most definitely. But that doesn't mean that the theology of Christianity is incorrect or that it promotes greed. But, you've sidetracked with illegitimate tu quoque claims. The problem I have is not with taxes. The problem I have is with PREJUDICIAL taxes. Why should I have to pay a certain tax simply because of my religious beliefs? Why should I be treated like a second-class citizen? |
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You diligently study the Scriptures because you think that by them you possess eternal life. These are the Scriptures that testify about me, yet you refuse to come to me to have life. (John 5:39-40)
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