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Why a corrupt Bible is a problem for Islam |
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believer 
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 Posted: 01 March 2009 at 12:17pm |
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Chyralis -Now that is definately a problem for catholics!!
More clarification:
The Torah is Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers and Deuteronomy the Quran validates these.
The Gospel Matthew, Mark, Luke and John that we have today is the Gospel that was used by the earliest Christians as early or even earlier then 67AD and was available to Mohammad and validated by the Quran.
There is no mention of the Epistles in the Quran. Through the epistles we know that the Gospel Matthew, Mark, Luke and John was in use by that 67AD date. St. Paul referenced them in his letters- Epistles and we know that Paul died in 67AD.
The New Testament combines the Gospel and Epistles into the New Testament.
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John 3
16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. |
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Apollos
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Joined: 29 January 2009 Status: Offline Points: 426 |
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Posted: 01 March 2009 at 9:29am |
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Chrysalis,
I am aware that many other groups hold similar ideas about the Bible being corrupted - including apostate "church" leaders that you reference here. My challenge here then could be put to them as well. I am not intimidated in the slightest by so called "scholars", atheists, and others who claim that Jesus was wrong.
Feel free to look to these type of people to find quotes, theories or explanations that account for the supernatural attributes of the Bible I list. I know their explanations are inadequate. I don't know what yours is.
Apollos
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Chrysalis
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Posted: 01 March 2009 at 8:53am |
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"O Lord, forgive me, my parents and Muslims in the Hereafter. O Lord, show mercy on them as they showed mercy to me when I was young."
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Apollos
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Posted: 01 March 2009 at 6:48am |
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FROM ALI: Surah 5: 46-48 I�ll just explain these verses 1 by 1 47. Let the people of the Gospel judge by what Allah hath revealed therein. If any do fail to judge by (the light of) what Allah hath revealed, they are (no better than) those who rebel. FROM APOLLOS: Ali � How would these believers be expected to know what the true parts are? This passage does not say that there are true and false parts nor does it say that these believers are to look to the Quran as their guide for finding true and false parts. And if one reads that thinking into the passage, the whole point of the passage disappears � That Christians can judge or should have judged by what is in the Gospel. 48. To thee We sent the Scripture in truth, confirming the scripture that came before it, and guarding it in safety: so judge between them by what Allah hath revealed, Meaning prophet Muhammad (referred here are thee/you) has been given scripture (i.e Quran) which confirms the scripture that came before it (meaning it confirms what Injeel, Torah really said, note that scripture that came before it is not Bible, its Torah, Injeel and Zabur). This verse further says that Quran is guarding Torah and Injeel i.e gospel, meaning that Quran has the truth given by Torah and Injeel but you lost that, and turned Injeel into NT and Torah into OT. From Apollos: Ali � Your explanation for this seems contrived to me. It brings in a host of outside concepts into this passage that aren�t stated here and turns �safe guarding� on its head by redefining this as �replacing� previous Scripture. Nonetheless, I grant Muslims great latitude in interpreting the Quran for it is your book, not mine. Thanks for your explanation of this. Do you have an explanation for how the corruption of the Torah and Gospel occurred � accounting for the various features I described? Apollos |
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_ALI_
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Posted: 01 March 2009 at 6:15am |
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. The Quran refers to the Bible as a means to evaluate its followers. It states that the Gospel confirmed and guarded previous Scripture. The version of the Bible that existed during Mohammed�s life is the same as we have today. So if the Bible is corrupt, the Quran�s statements here are incorrect. Surah 5: 46-48 I�ll just explain these verses 1 by 1 46. And in their footsteps We sent Jesus the son of Mary, confirming the Law that had come before him: We sent him the Gospel: therein was guidance and light, and confirmation of the Law that had come before him: a guidance and an admonition to those who fear Allah. 46: We Muslims believe that God sent many revelations. To Moses, He gave Torah. To Jesus, He gave Injeel(translated gospel). Now Injeel confirmed what was present in Torah (i.e God is one, all the fundamental commandments etc). That is what this verse says 47. Let the people of the Gospel judge by what Allah hath revealed therein. If any do fail to judge by (the light of) what Allah hath revealed, they are (no better than) those who rebel. 47:Here therein refers to the Gospel, not Bible. Which gospel is it? Gospel of Mark, John, Mathew? No, it is the Gospel of God given to Jesus. You guys don�t have that gospel, you only have a corrupted form of that gospel in the shape of gospel of Mark, Mathew, John etc. Part of it may be God�s word like I said before. Here Allah is saying that you should judge right from wrong by what Allah has revealed in the gospel, meaning that part of the gospels of Mark, Luke, John which is God�s word in the true sense. And Shakir translates this verse a bit differently SHAKIR: And the followers of the Injeel should have judged by what Allah revealed in it; and whoever did not judge by what Allah revealed, those are they that are the transgressors. 48. To thee We sent the Scripture in truth, confirming the scripture that came before it, and guarding it in safety: so judge between them by what Allah hath revealed, Meaning prophet Muhammad (referred here are thee/you) has been given scripture (i.e Quran) which confirms the scripture that came before it (meaning it confirms what Injeel, Torah really said, note that scripture that came before it is not Bible, its Torah, Injeel and Zabur). This verse further says that Quran is guarding Torah and Injeel i.e gospel, meaning that Quran has the truth given by Torah and Injeel but you lost that, and turned Injeel into NT and Torah into OT. The verse is explained by Maududi in tafheem.net: *78. This points to a fact of major significance. It could also have been said that the Qur'an confirms all those parts of the earlier divine books which are still extant in their true and original form. But the sense has been conveyed by employing the word 'the Book' rather than 'the previous Books'. This expression reveals that the Qur'an and all those Books sent down by God at various times and in different languages in reality constitute one and the same Book. Their Author is one and the same; their aim and purpose are the same; their teaching is the same; and the knowledge which they seek to impart to mankind is the same. The difference between these Books lies in their modes of expression, and this was necessarily so since they were addressed to different audiences. It is, therefore, not merely that these divine books support rather than contradict each other but that they are actually different editions of one and the same book - 'the Book'.
*79. In Arabic, haymana, yuhayminu, hayamanah signify 'to protect, to witness, to keep trust, to back and to support'. The expression 'haymana al-rajul al-shay' means that the man protected and guarded the thing. Likewise, 'haymana al-ta'ir 'alafirdkhih' means that the bird took its young ones under the protection of its wings. Once 'Umar said to the people: 'Inni da'in fa hayminu' ('I am praying; support me by saying amen'). To say that the Qur'an is muhaymin of al-kitab means that it preserves all the true teachings of the earlier divine books; that it has secured them from loss. The Qur'an also confirms those Books in that the contents of the Qur'an testify to the truth of those parts which are indeed from God. The Qur'an is, further, a witness over those Books in the sense that, with its help, the elements which embody true revelations from God can be distinguished from the accretions which have corrupted them. Whatever in these Books accords with the Qur'an is from God, and whatever is not in conformity with it is from human beings. |
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_ALI_
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Posted: 28 February 2009 at 11:16pm |
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Salam Apollos
I'm really glad that you started this topic. Let me first tell you about what Muslims think of the Bible. We think that it is composed of three parts.
1)The part which agrees with the Quran may be true. For example those verses in which God is potrayed as 1, Holy, merciful etc.
2) The part which contradicts with the Quran, we all deem it false. For example, no Muslim can ever say that prophet Lot first drank wine, then commited adultery, with his own daughter, twice (first night with one, 2nd night with the other) Hence we disagree with Gen 19:30-36, and all the other similar parts are interpolation for us.
3) The part which neither contradicts nor matches with the Quran. That part could or couldn't be true.
But for us, Bible is irrelevent. God gives books for guidance and there is complete guidance in Quran for us, so Muslims don't read the Bible for the sake of guidance. They read it to chat with folks like you
 Edited by _ALI_ - 28 February 2009 at 11:38pm |
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Apollos
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Posted: 28 February 2009 at 10:35pm |
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The version of the Bible that existed during Mohammed�s life is the same as we have today From Nur_Ilahi: However the Christians cannot produce this version as claimed above. From Apollos: You�ve got to be joking. Are you saying we don�t have manuscripts of the Bible from Mohammed�s time? There are hundreds and the Bible of today is based on these. Please clarify what you are saying or do some study. If God�s Word the Bible has been corrupted over time, the logical implication is that other revelations from God could also be corrupted. How do we know that the Quran has not also been corrupted the same way? From Nur_Ilahi: There is nothing in the Bible that says God is The Guardian - Al-Muhaimin, The Preserver = Al Hafiz - The All-Aware - Al-Khabir. And there are sentences in the Quran that Allah himself guaranteed that He Himself will guard this Holy Scripture. This aspects of guardianship of the Holy Scripture is not found in the Bible. From Apollos: Of course the Bible doesn�t use these terms because it doesn�t use Arabic. But the Bible makes it clear that God has assured us His word will remain and accomplish what He purposes. He never states that He needs humans to accomplish this or that it is uncertain. Below are a few examples.
(David re: God) Psa 138:2 I will worship toward thy holy temple, and praise thy name for thy lovingkindness and for thy truth: for thou hast magnified thy word above all thy name. (God) Num 11:23 And the LORD said unto Moses, Is the LORD'S hand waxed short? thou shalt see now whether my word shall come to pass unto thee or not. (God) Isa 54:10 For the mountains shall depart, and the hills be removed; but my kindness shall not depart from thee, neither shall the covenant of my peace be removed, saith the LORD that hath mercy on thee. (Jesus) Mat 24:35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away. Additionally, all you have done is say: "The reason the Quran hasn't been corrupted is because it says so." If one is supposed to ignore statements from the Bible that says it won't be corrupted but accept similar ones from the Quran, you are being inconsistent and hypocritical.
From Nur_Ilahi:
I will make this short, and I will say that the Bible is corrupted because the Christians could not produce the authentic one that was written at the times of Jesus. (a Very big headache for the Christians indeed!) If the God that the Christians believe is Powerful, it will not be impossible for this God to preserve the holy scripture. From Apollos: I don�t have a clue what you mean by this. Please clarify. And please clarify how anything you have said accounts for the supernatural attributes of the Bible that exists today. Apollos |
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Nur_Ilahi
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Posted: 28 February 2009 at 7:15pm |
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Why a corrupt Bible is a problem for Islam.
The Title should read, WHY A CORRUPT BIBLE IS A PROBLEM FOR CHRISTIANITY. The facts that more and more Christians are dissatisfied of worshipping a powerless God who died on the cross. A Bible which is full of contradictions and traces of pornography and evil. The version of the Bible that existed during Mohammed�s life is the same as we have today However the Christians cannot produce this version as claimed above. If God�s Word the Bible has been corrupted over time, the logical implication is that other revelations from God could also be corrupted. How do we know that the Quran has not also been corrupted the same way? There is nothing in the Bible that says God is The Guardian - Al-Muhaimin, The Preserver = Al Hafiz - The All-Aware - Al-Khabir. And there are sentences in the Quran that Allah himself guaranteed that He Himself will guard this Holy Scripture. This aspects of guardianship of the Holy Scripture is not found in the Bible. I quote from another website - As for the claim that Allah did not preserve Divine Books (such as Torah, Gospel, etc.) or allowed them to be tainted and corrupted, this is not true. This is because Allah entrusted the People of the Book with the task of preserving and guarding their Books from any corruption but they disobeyed Him and failed to do so. This is stated in the Qur'an: "It was We who revealed the law (to Moses): therein was guidance and light. By its standard have been judged the Jews, by the prophets who bowed (as in Islam) to Allah's will, by the rabbis and the doctors of law: FOR TO THEM WAS ENTRUSTED THE PROTECTION OF ALLAH'S BOOK, and they were witnesses thereto..." (Al-Ma'idah: 44) That is why Allah took upon Himself to guard the Qur�an. Almighty Allah says, �Lo! We, even We, reveal the Reminder (Qur�an), and lo! We verily are its Guardian.� (Al-Hijr: 9)" http://www.islamonline.net/servlet/Satellite?cid=1119503546346&pagename=IslamOnline-English-Ask_Scholar%2FFatwaE%2FFatwaEAskTheScholarI will make this short, and I will say that the Bible is corrupted because the Christians could not produce the authentic one that was written at the times of Jesus. (a Very big headache for the Christians indeed!) If the God that the Christians believe is Powerful, it will not be impossible for this God to preserve the holy scripture. Edited by Nur_Ilahi - 28 February 2009 at 7:15pm |
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Ilahi Anta Maksudi, Wa Redhaka Mathlubi - Oh Allah, You are my destination, Your Pleasure is my Intention.
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Chrysalis wrote: