Who are We ? (Revisited) |
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Caringheart
Senior Member Joined: 02 March 2012 Status: Offline Points: 2991 |
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Greetings m.sumair, I apologize and you are of course correct. I did not remove the earlier post simply because I did want to say, or agree, that that one comment of yours did stick out like a sore thumb. I guess much the same way my comment did. Please accept my apologies. I had hoped that my continuation would make the necessary amends. Salaam, Caringheart |
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Ron Webb
Senior Member Male atheist Joined: 30 January 2008 Location: Ottawa, Canada Status: Offline Points: 2467 |
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You're right, and that is precisely why we need laws protecting freedom of expression. As it has been said many times, if freedom of expression is to mean anything at all it must include freedom for speech that is unpopular or that we personally hate. Speech that is popular and that we like obviously doesn't need protection.
Absolutely. If you claim that Muhammad had sex with a dog, you could probably get arrested, because it is a blatant lie with the clear intent of inciting hatred. On the other hand, it is okay to say that he had sex with a nine year old girl (Aisha), because that is factually correct, or at least there is ample evidence to support it. What you make of that fact is up to you. And just for the record, truth is not an absolute defense against libel charges either, but it is at least a strong mitigating factor, depending on the jurisdiction. Let's not get into the details of libel laws.
The phrase in bold was "They are in power, they rule banks and major economy." This is factually incorrect. It is a lie repeated over and over by anti-Semites to incite hatred and distrust of Jews. You could say that Jews are disproportionately represented in the banking industry, which may be true for historical reasons, but their absolute numbers are simply too small to be "ruling" anything. |
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Addeenul �Aql � Religion is intellect.
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m.sumair
Groupie Male Joined: 28 November 2011 Location: Pakistan Status: Offline Points: 42 |
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Greetings Caringheart, it would have been very kind of you, if you had just read the complete thread and than have commented on my "real intent". To me it felt a bit rude, but Anyways ..my real intent is to condemn those who act horrendously, including the act of ill-speech/videos.
Surely the God is only one who bring change to the hearts and the honest follow-ship of the religion can bring about that change because God never mislead His servants. |
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m.sumair
Groupie Male Joined: 28 November 2011 Location: Pakistan Status: Offline Points: 42 |
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@Ron, I never denied that holocaust ever happened (if thts wat u
meant) and there was no intent to cause any discrimination, I wonder what were you thinking? My point is quite simple that when you are in Power, (weathr minority or majority) you tend to subjugate rights of others (weather minority or majority) either intentionally or unintentionally. So this whole talk of freedom of Expression is "good" as long as you talk against those not in power. When you dare to speak against those in power, against their injustice and chaos, than they will banish you (the history is clear & so is present, from such acts). So can I say, that you can get in trouble for spreading false information about a Prophet with the intent to promote hatred and discrimination, for instance We can ban you, restrict you from propagating such nonsense. (I personally don't think so because we are "others") Ron you said :
Now this is something that I am keen to comment. Me saying this nonsense in public will get me in trouble, while "they" saying nonsense against Prophet in public is a Freedom of expression. Don't you think its a double standards? And don't worry about my statement...I said that because than, we can have something common to share (the feel of nonsense being said)... I will say again, to imply the Emphasis that Freedom of Speech/Expression is good, it enables you to be a free man, but with each freedom there comes a limitation. Freedom without boundaries is worst than being imprisoned. You do pay care to what you express in private and in public, its a common human sense that implied in daily lives. |
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Caringheart
Senior Member Joined: 02 March 2012 Status: Offline Points: 2991 |
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Greetings Nothing, I'm sorry, and I know that many will find this offensive, but I agree with you... the problem... for me... what I have seen in studying Islam... is preceisely what you say... it is a 'me' message... It is all about doing for the purpose of what I will get... It is very much geared towards a mindset of 'what will I get?' for doing what I do. It does not put forth well a message of giving for the sake of giving... or that giving is its own reward because you are serving God. There is no message of Love. It's all about what will I get... selfish ambition (which is from one other than God, opposed to God) This is why I have not been able to accept the message of Muhammad as a message from God. I will add that I am not through with my study, and that I believe it is possible that something begun as not good can be made good, by God's willing hand(remember Joseph?), and man's discernment. I do not know that Muhammad had wrong intent... just maybe wrongly guided. And now many following his message are wrongly guided. There is some good... some Truth included in the message... It is necessary for Islam's people, and its leaders, to extract the good... and leave what is not good. Edited by Caringheart - 25 September 2012 at 11:43am |
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Caringheart
Senior Member Joined: 02 March 2012 Status: Offline Points: 2991 |
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Ok, reading this I can agree with you... un-Godliness has gotten out of hand and we would do well to put God back in the equation of human living, and this could be done by not allowing any mockery of any religion. Has any man made measure ever in history worked to make a difference though? or is God the only one who can bring about the change of hearts that is needed to drive people back to Him? All through ancient history we have seen how the people continue to go astray and there is only one forthcoming solution to this problem. Man has never been able to accomplish it on his own. Though I agree... we must try... but peacefully. |
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Caringheart
Senior Member Joined: 02 March 2012 Status: Offline Points: 2991 |
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I found that one line disturbing and out of sync too. For another reason. Here I thought this person was addressing condemning the violent of acts of those calling themselves Muslims and purportedly following the teaching of Muhammad and the Qur'an... and then He throws in his (real intent?)... his real concern? The concern is to condemn those who speak freely and not those who act horrendously? |
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Ron Webb
Senior Member Male atheist Joined: 30 January 2008 Location: Ottawa, Canada Status: Offline Points: 2467 |
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Thanks for that clarification. Okay, so earlier you wrote:
You're absolutely right that you can get into trouble for spreading false information about a minority group with the intent to promote discrimination, e.g. denying that the Holocaust happened. So for instance:
You could quite possibly get in trouble for repeating the above nonsense in bold, if you did so publicly enough and in a context implying hatred or animosity. On the other hand, you can certainly criticize or ridicule a minority, as long as you stick to the facts and as long as your purpose is not clearly to incite hatred and violence. There was recently a great Broadway musical comedy called "The Book of Mormon", which mocks the religion of Mormonism, for instance. Unfortunately I didn't get to see it myself, but I understand it was a big hit. I have heard several of the songs from it and they are hilarious. Would your proposed legislation ban this musical? |
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Addeenul �Aql � Religion is intellect.
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