Not only for Whisper

Israfil has raised a very valid point about the psychology of victimization.

And, sadly, he has agreed with me that the psychology of victimization doesn�t apply to the groups I am discussing. When some people are invaded they do not act out of some psychology of victimization. They can have a multitude of reasons to repel their occupiers.

If the Japanese had regressed and retreated into the victimization mode after their humiliating loss after the second world war including the hiroshima and nagasaki bombings they wouldnt have achieved even half of what they have done today.

One day, you might possibly grow up a bit and you might just possibly begin to count achievements beyond the one you have come to hold almost as some solitary goddess in your stable of thought.

After the Jews in Germany lost everything they had during the holocaust they did not shelter themselves under the umbrella of victimization. Instead they worked hard and using their brawn and brains control a large portion of the world's wealth, power and prestige.

And, despite all of that, they happen to be the largest Wholesale Merchants of Victim mentality in our present world?

Muslims in the conflict areas like afghanistan or palestine are doing exactly the opposite. They are being misled by their leaders and clergy in adopting a path of blind confrontation with the West without using their gray matter (Brain) which allah has provided them.

Do you know why I am here while all other serious established members of this group have forsaken to even read your posts let alone respond to these?

For, I have never come across anyone like you, in my entire political career. You amuse me no end, plus I harvest all the US media aspirations just from your posts.

What are conflict areas?

What is this confrontation with the West?

Why are you shy about calling a spade a spade?

Or, call an invaded land an invaded land?

What choice are the Afghans and the Palestinians left with of dealing with their occupations?

You happen to know an absolute nought about Afghanistan.

My people are fighting a war of independence. Each Afghan is fighting for his tribe and his Kishwar e Husseen.

They know not any different. We are not blessed with the long tradition of serving our invaders, heart, mind, body and mostly also with our souls like our Indian neighbours.

That's why it is difficult for you to understand us and our whole value system.

You knew Palestine just as some mere Refugee Problem. That sums up the extent of your knowledge about that �Conflict Area!�

When we don�t have any knowledge of something, it�s always best to keep shut.

Until this policy is reversed by muslims themselves the sufferings, death and destruction in areas like palestine and afghanistan will continue.

Thank you, but who told you that?

The Brookings Institute or the President�s very own wishfoolness herself?

It just shows that the simple minded and gullible nature of Afghan people like the lad mentioned.

Yes, we also do have a bit of a vocabulary for the Indian mentality, but I reserve the right of not using it.

The afghans are being tricked by Groups like the Taliban and their leaders into sacrificing themselves and their families by false religious and extremist propaganda.

So, that�s the situation as far as your info goes?

I wonder if anyone on this board could inform this gentle innocent soul that Afghanistan is actually occupied?

The afghans are living in a condition of total hopelessness, ignorance, acute poverty and misery. In such a state luring them with promises of riches and paradise in the everlasting life is relatively easy.

Really? Or could it be that the only divine goddess of your counts hasn�t yet effected our psyche and culture.

Hands off Afghanistan TILL you learn the ABC of my people and my country.

There is no Oil in afghanistan. All the West wants there is a land which doesnt become a Operational playground for all the crazy fanatics whose only aim is to create hatred of all things Western. 

This is a patent Pentagon line. Have you obtained their permission for using it? Or, are we just plagiarising, here?

The area around Afghanistan is RICHER in GAS and OIL resource. Unocol has been trying to construct a pipeline through Afghanistan.

The Government was invited and hosted in the states in JULY 2001.

The Corporations wanted to construct that pipeline in �huge bills to the shareholders� Enron style. We didn�t want too many foreigners running around our land (We hold an absolute right to want that if and when we desire)

The deal wasn�t struck.

And, we were told:

Either you can have a carpet of gold or a carpet of bombs

Everyone in the world knows what we chose.

Whisper my post will be in red

The matters of global injustice hold different dynamics and in such situations, the search for justice requires external struggles, backed by active support, not just some philosophical introspection.

I disagree....

Yaar�em, do you just disagree with me?

Or, do you disagree with the simple universal principle that in global injustice situations, justice is achieved through actual effective external struggles?

I do not deny that global injustice requires external struggles but your isolating this area as if this is the only effective way. People have to want to leave their situations its not a matter of giving individuals resources.

If just the internal worked then those millions of Indians shouldn�t have beaten the hell out of their masters, our good old Mohandas Karamchand Ghandhi should have squatted in his Ahmddabad prison cell, just on his own, and they would have got their Tricolour, without moving a finger.

You're greatly misunderstanding my point like people always do here. Relieving oneself of self-victimization is not a "cure all" solution. what I'm saying is people shouldn't place themselves as the constant victim once their status of victimhood is established. Even if it was established, some people are responsible for their situations. If you guys cared to read the Psychology of Victimhood thread I explained all of this in detail so no need to derail the thread here on re-explaining this all over.

Most disadvantaged cultures can be socialized into a pattern of thinking of feeling like a "victim."

Yes, I agree, but this applies only to disadvantaged cultures.

I again disagree. Like I said if you cared to read the Psychology of Victimhood thread you would see that it is explained there that the pattern of victimhood is changing from disadvantaged groups to some priviledged groups claiming to be victims themselves.

Where, when and how a culture comes to feel disadvantaged is unfortunately not the same for all peoples of our world. Our sense of our advantage and our disadvantages very much depend on our desire shopping lists and also on our psyches.

This is your perception sir......

The African American was thousands of miles away from even the faintest memories of his homeland leave aside any possibility of ever getting back there. He had no rights. Thanks to the plantation owner�s greed that kept a roof over his head and some food in his stomach.

I agree....

Pure survival forced him to accept his situation and, over the generations, he graduated into a disadvantaged culture.

I agree....

The African American example doesn�t fit the Palestinian or some 14 years old Afghan lad with one leg blown off by some landmine. He is in his homeland. There is a very interesting Punjabi saying: apni dheri tay kutta wi sher hunda � even a common stray dog is like a Lion on his own patch.

See you're comparing suffering whereas I'm comparing both groups living in a disadvantaged system. the problem with comparing suffering is you are at the same time saying that another groups situation is not as important. By the fact that you said that the two situations dont compare simply because a 14-year old kid legs is blown off shows that you think the Palestinian/Afghan situation is a lot more severe. to me this is an unfair and wrong comparison but again I have my biases so if you wish to know the full honest truth I would definitely disagree with you there and would provide proof of my disagreement however this is not a discussion on who suffers more.

This saying almost says it all.

I sometimes pity the NATO forces for not knowing Punjabi or, at least, some its very old and applicable idioms.

My friend, the Afghan or the Palestinian dog has been standing on his patch for a little over a few thousands of years. Plus, unlike our African American, he doesn�t feel like a victim.

Actually, unlike the Palestinian or Afghan blacks have made a name for themselves in an disadvantaged situation. We designed Washington D.C. we shaped American socio-economic society during thr 1600-1800's. We were great philosophers, doctors, and pioneers of americans past, present and future. Now it seems you have played down African-American struggle (no offense taken) however in the Palestinian/Afghan situation who has championed the cause of both disadvantaged groups? Nobody. so I would disagree in th assertion that blacks are somehow self-proclaimed victims. Yes we scream injustices however more and more i'm hearing the Afghan and Arab voice on why their suffering is so prolonged. Its not the black voice anymore.

 If someone has told you that these chaps are ready to kill and get killed out of some victim mentality then please do pass this chap my phone contacts, I will normalise his mental reset for free. And, it�s some Chapie, I will also throw in a candle lit dinner with it!

Just fables. Mere stories. About people we have never met seen or experienced and as if the whole world does, feels, reacts and behave just in our own image!

A 14 years old Afghan lad sat sipping qahwa a Qissa Khawani Bazaar tea stall, in Peshawar.

One of his legs was amputated after a little date with a landmine. I asked him what he was going to do next.

The blighter looked at me with a calm smile and answered my question with a question:

�You are a Khan, don�t you know?�

I confessed, I was sort of an Export Quality Khan and I didn�t really know what the Kandhaar lads get on to these days.

�I know you are kidding, but I won�t argue with such a silver head� �when I can run again, I will run back to my mates and we will find the chap who sows the devil seed in my land�.

We both sat in silence sipping tea.

I watched him for a while. He had a strange deep resolve in his hazel brown eyes. He was a mere kid, a strange kid, with a strange regal look, of still dignity and that kind of strange power we can find playing on the face of some Flamenco singer, at the zenith of her performance.

I told him that right now he had only lost just a leg and what he now plans on doing could lose him his life. He placed his empty cup on the tray, lifted his metal crutch and came and stood opposite me, he offered his hand for me to shake. His break had finished and he had to go back to his bus cleaner boss.

He told me that he would win whether he lived or he died.

Yaar Israfil, this Masha Allah, Insha Allah, Allah o Akbar scenario is not a victim mentality based scenario. My friend, when a dog is fighting for his patch, he doesn�t feel victimised, he feels aggressed against. He fights for his land, he fights for his rights, he just fights for his freedom or whatever, but he fights with a spirit not just out of some pity for himself or his grandfathers� plight.

The African American model fails to fit here.

It's amazing you have taken my model as if I'm merely stating African-Americans are all vicitims. Your comments portray African-Americans as weak when we are the opposite. You portray my comment in an entirely different context than I had intended. You are comparing suffering of one group against another when that was not my intention. Brother you mentioned about seeing what we want to see and that is exactly how your words are coming off. Brother, I can get deep with you if I wanted to but me being deep would greatly offend the cultural sensitivities of others so I choose not to. Blacks have been fighting for centuries when Afghan and Palestinians did not even mentioned about strife in their land. You think strength comes from surviving bombs when I think it comes from persevering through internal and external struggles. Perhaps this is a difference of cultural experience but whatever that may be, we cannot sit here and compare scars where circumstances are different. What I was trying to compare was one disadvantge group over the other. So far as I can say Afghanis and Palis have no champions whiles blacks have had many.