Pope’s speech stirs Muslim anger

Thank you Sr. Hanan for your recent remarks.  As you said:

"I�ve read that the pope invited the ambassadors of Muslim countries at the Vatican, as well as representatives of Italy's Muslim community, to a meeting on Monday. Over the past few days I�ve been wondering if perhaps Ratzinger�s quote and the ensuing controversy were �meant to be.� I am hopeful that the meeting, and subsequent meetings, will result in a deeper understanding of Islam and Christianity by all people, and in respect and tolerance towards members of both faiths..."

I think that we could cite many instances both in Christian and in Muslim history where Allah (SWT) has done this, often we don't recognize His hand in works of this sort until much later.

I am in total agreement with these comments, and join in prayer that they shall come about in the most hopeful fashion.

Forgive me for not using the quote function, but at this point I think it just repeats many things that we have discussed ourselves past, and are now therefore irrelevant.  But I do want to respond to brother peacemakers sincere and constructive remarks.

from peacemaker:

"Yes, I visited that link. But, as you see, that falls short of sincere apology. Pope feels sorry that his speech was misinterpreted and Muslims were troubled. It doesn�t say anywhere that he was sorry that he made wrong speech and that he doesn�t, in any way, endorse views of the emperor, quoted in the speech on Islam.

You see few sentences of that sort would have been very positive to lessen the tensed situation. And I think, that was one of the reasons why climate didn�t cool down after that kind of apology. With that said, I have already made my point that any form of violent reaction to his speech is not allowed in Islam. And if people choose to do so, they do on their own and that has no basis in Islam.

I pray to Allah that Muslims and Christians together realize that we have many common points. We Muslims believe in Jesus ( peace be upon him ) as a beloved and mighty Messenger of Allah, his miraculous birth, mother Maryam ( Mary ) ( peace be upon her ). We also wait for the day of judgement just as Christians do. We are also waiting that Jesus ( peace be upon him ) will return to Earth once again before the day of judgement. These similarities must be made known to the world to overcome the climate of fear and distrust."

First of all, let me thank you, peacemaker, for living up to the implications of your name.  So often Westerners and Middle Easterners (and by association Muslims, rightly or wrongly) find the difficulty of getting past, and getting past misunderstandings is so necessary now for us to avoid the murderous mistakes of the past, and to live up to the best expectations of our common creator.

At this point I am just wondering exactly what sincere apology the Pope could honestly offer that would satisfy people.  Perhaps you missed this portion of the statement at the link most recently offered:

"...- As for the opinion of the Byzantine emperor Manuel II Paleologus which he quoted during his Regensburg talk, the Holy Father did not mean, nor does he mean, to make that opinion his own in any way. He simply used it as a means to undertake - in an academic context, and as is evident from a complete and attentive reading of the text - certain reflections on the theme of the relationship between religion and violence in general, and to conclude with a clear and radical rejection of the religious motivation for violence, from whatever side it may come...

- The Holy Father thus sincerely regrets that certain passages of his address could have sounded offensive to the sensitivities of the Muslim faithful, and should have been interpreted in a manner that in no way corresponds to his intentions..."

I guess that he could apologize for having agreed with the Emperor's obnoxious statement that Islam is (doesn't bear repeating), and for conspiring with Christian extremist organizations to anhilate Islam.  This sort of statement would seem to fit the criterion that many demanding an apology have set, especially of those promoting more war by misleading Muslims into assuming those very conclusions.

But you must also ask yourself that if he made such a statement would it be sincere if he did not agree with the statement, and/or conspire to launch another Crusade?  And exactly what is its value if it in untrue?

And this gets to the heart of my earlier challenges and links to outside sources.  When I asked Sr. Hanan to present evidence to support the charge, and she so far has declined.  The Raimundo essay has provided ample evidence from long before this controversy to suggest that this charge was so distant to the truth that it could only have come from someone painfully, even intentionally and neglegently ignorant of his (and the Church's) recent history.

Do you see the difficulty with this situation?  If you admit the possibility that there is a misunderstanding then just how reasonable is it to demand that sort of apologetic statement (assuming of course that an insincere and untrue apology would not qualify)?  And what good and noble purpose might such an insincere/untrue apology serve?

Of course, those whose objective is to launch another lesser jihad, and muster Muslims in its unjust and untrue cause would use just such a misunderstanding to gain power for themselves.  And I fear that a few of them are doing just that, and many Muslims are being misled into it by passions like these.

And even if that fails, too many Westerners viewing this situation would draw the conclusion that coming to a peaceful accord with Muslims/Middle Easterners is not possible and would therefore give up on the effort as a waste of time.

Incidents like these are inexpressibly dangerous.  Too many lives depend upon our resolving it.

Salaam


Edited by runner

runner wrote: peacemaker wrote: runner wrote: peacemaker wrote: runner wrote: Perhaps this is a good time to return to the actual events which elicited all of this bruhaha.  While I can't say I agree with everything that this commentator says, it is a stunningly accurate and thoughtful exposition.  Everyone please read the whole article before proceeding with more vituperation.  Salaam.  In Defense of Pope Benedict The Catholic Church is an enemy of the War Party by Justin Raimondo What is an erudite and perhaps overly scholarly pope to do in the face of a news media that insists on cherry-picking his pronouncements � buried amidst references to obscure Byzantine emperors and abstruse theological constructs � and making of them blazing headlines? There isn't much he can do, and perhaps this is for the best. Benedict XVI is blunter and more assertive than his predecessor, and if I were a practicing Catholic � which I am not � I would be glad of it. In an era dominated by relativism and political correctness, where all religions are supposedly equal and truth is a matter of opinion (usually someone else's), it is refreshing to see someone uphold what they believe and defend it against all comers. Clearly, Benedict had no idea that, in returning to the University of Regensburg, where he once taught theology, and delivering a lecture with the supremely inoffensive title of "Faith, Reason, and the University � Memories and Reflections," he would be charged with launching the Tenth Crusade. Yet that is plainly happening.299... Continued at: http://antiwar.com/justin/?articleid=9709 You are again justifying that Pope made no mistake. And the more you justify, the more you will inflame Muslim passsion. In so many posts, it has clearly been described why Muslims think the way they think about this matter, yet you are adamant to make your point that he made no mistake. He made serious mistake, and only a sincere apology would help rebuild Muslim-Christian relations. Next time, you post anything, read the warning in this section. Don't post something that would only inflame Muslim sentiments. You are at it again and again, and it is really sad. Peace Br. Peacemaker, I have not bandied about charges without foundation, nor have I refused to furnish evidence for the charges I have not made, nor of the name-calling that I didn't do. I am merely and meekly inviting you to reexamine your conclusions.  Do you find that "inflames Muslim sentiments"?  Is it not possible that a human Muslim or his/her sentiments are in error? Did you read the article, or did you reject it before discovering what it actually said? I always read first prior to responding. And also that I think twice before making any statement. But, as a human, I may make mistakes like any other human, and when that happens, I sincerely apologize, and avoid making the same mistake again, and that is the secret of my success by the grace of Allah. I don't know what was in the heart of the Pope at the time he made the speech as only Allah knows that. Maybe, that is what he knew about Islam out of ignorance. But, once it has become clear that his speech affected 1.5 billion Muslims on the planet, he should have sincerely apologized, and that would have opened the door again for dialogue between Muslims and Christians. But, if he refuses to accept that he made a wrong speech, it would, undoubtedly confirm that he was fully aware what he was doing. Can't he just say, " I sincerely apologize for that kind of speech and I don't agree with emperor's view quoted on Islam." It would have been the best time to show the world that here is true Christianity that promotes peace and tolerance, mercy and compassion. But, on one hand innocent people become victims, and on other, we are still discussing if something went wrong. Making mistake is far less serious than not recognizing it. And I am really upset to see this negative trend between Muslim-Christian relations. Peace    I cannot agree more with your last two paragraphs, brother.  As to the one prior to that I invite you to inspect the following statement: "STATEMENT BY CARD. TARCISIO BERTONE, S.D.B., SECRETARY OF STATE Saturday, 16 September 2006 Given the reaction in Muslim quarters to certain passages of the Holy Father's address at the University of Regensburg, and the clarifications and explanations already presented through the Director of the Holy See Press Office, I would like to add the following: - The position of the Pope concerning Islam is unequivocally that expressed by the conciliar document Nostra Aetate: "The Church regards with esteem also the Muslims. They adore the one God, living and subsisting in Himself; merciful and all-powerful, the Creator of heaven and earth, Who has spoken to men; they take pains to submit wholeheartedly to even His inscrutable decrees, just as Abraham, with whom the faith of Islam takes pleasure in linking itself, submitted to God. Though they do not acknowledge Jesus as God, they revere Him as a prophet. They also honor Mary, His virgin Mother; at times they even call on her with devotion. In addition, they await the day of judgment when God will render their deserts to all those who have been raised up from the dead. Finally, they value the moral life and worship God especially through prayer, almsgiving and fasting" (no. 3)... Continued at: http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/secretariat_state/card-ber tone/2006/documents/rc_seg-st_20060916_dichiarazione_en.html And I invite you to read the whole statement rather than the clip posted here, or what other talkers have had to say about it.  I think we --all-- tend to react far too quickly based upon what others (sometimes malevolent others) have said about something rather than restraining our passions to find out the full story.  And when we do we often multiply the magnitude of the problem many fold. Its our human weakness, whether Jewish, Christian, Muslim or aetheist.  At its best religions give us tools and the desire to overcome these human weaknesses...and that's why its so ironic and frustrating to find these sorts of misunderstandings among people of faith, whichever one that is. And let me be clear, it is my view that it is our faiths either incompletely or incorrectly taught or learned rather than the revelations which we share that results in these misunderstandings; from hardened hearts to the point of heedlessness to reason even to  murder, not from the revelations themselves.  And we are all called to resist the urge to fall into that Shaitonic trap. Salaam.

Yes, I visited that link. But, as you see, that falls short of sincere apology. Pope feels sorry that his speech was misinterpreted and Muslims were troubled. It doesn�t say anywhere that he was sorry that he made wrong speech and that he doesn�t, in any way, endorse views of the emperor, quoted in the speech on Islam.

You see few sentences of that sort would have been very positive to lessen the tensed situation. And I think, that was one of the reasons why climate didn�t cool down after that kind of apology. With that said, I have already made my point that any form of violent reaction to his speech is not allowed in Islam. And if people choose to do so, they do on their own and that has no basis in Islam.

I pray to Allah that Muslims and Christians together realize that we have many common points. We Muslims believe in Jesus ( peace be upon him ) as a beloved and mighty Messenger of Allah, his miraculous birth, mother Maryam ( Mary ) ( peace be upon her ). We also wait for the day of judgement just as Christians do. We are also waiting that Jesus ( peace be upon him ) will return to Earth once again before the day of judgement. These similarities must be made known to the world to overcome the climate of fear and distrust.

May Allah guide us all.

"and nearest among them in love to the believers wilt thou find those who say, "We are Christians": because amongst these are men devoted to learning and men who have renounced the world, and they are not arrogant." Qur'an 5: 82

 Peace

peacemaker wrote: runner wrote: peacemaker wrote: runner wrote: Perhaps this is a good time to return to the actual events which elicited all of this bruhaha.  While I can't say I agree with everything that this commentator says, it is a stunningly accurate and thoughtful exposition.  Everyone please read the whole article before proceeding with more vituperation.  Salaam.  In Defense of Pope Benedict The Catholic Church is an enemy of the War Party by Justin Raimondo What is an erudite and perhaps overly scholarly pope to do in the face of a news media that insists on cherry-picking his pronouncements � buried amidst references to obscure Byzantine emperors and abstruse theological constructs � and making of them blazing headlines? There isn't much he can do, and perhaps this is for the best. Benedict XVI is blunter and more assertive than his predecessor, and if I were a practicing Catholic � which I am not � I would be glad of it. In an era dominated by relativism and political correctness, where all religions are supposedly equal and truth is a matter of opinion (usually someone else's), it is refreshing to see someone uphold what they believe and defend it against all comers. Clearly, Benedict had no idea that, in returning to the University of Regensburg, where he once taught theology, and delivering a lecture with the supremely inoffensive title of "Faith, Reason, and the University � Memories and Reflections," he would be charged with launching the Tenth Crusade. Yet that is plainly happening.299... Continued at: http://antiwar.com/justin/?articleid=9709 You are again justifying that Pope made no mistake. And the more you justify, the more you will inflame Muslim passsion. In so many posts, it has clearly been described why Muslims think the way they think about this matter, yet you are adamant to make your point that he made no mistake. He made serious mistake, and only a sincere apology would help rebuild Muslim-Christian relations. Next time, you post anything, read the warning in this section. Don't post something that would only inflame Muslim sentiments. You are at it again and again, and it is really sad. Peace Br. Peacemaker, I have not bandied about charges without foundation, nor have I refused to furnish evidence for the charges I have not made, nor of the name-calling that I didn't do. I am merely and meekly inviting you to reexamine your conclusions.  Do you find that "inflames Muslim sentiments"?  Is it not possible that a human Muslim or his/her sentiments are in error? Did you read the article, or did you reject it before discovering what it actually said? I always read first prior to responding. And also that I think twice before making any statement. But, as a human, I may make mistakes like any other human, and when that happens, I sincerely apologize, and avoid making the same mistake again, and that is the secret of my success by the grace of Allah. I don't know what was in the heart of the Pope at the time he made the speech as only Allah knows that. Maybe, that is what he knew about Islam out of ignorance. But, once it has become clear that his speech affected 1.5 billion Muslims on the planet, he should have sincerely apologized, and that would have opened the door again for dialogue between Muslims and Christians. But, if he refuses to accept that he made a wrong speech, it would, undoubtedly confirm that he was fully aware what he was doing. Can't he just say, " I sincerely apologize for that kind of speech and I don't agree with emperor's view quoted on Islam." It would have been the best time to show the world that here is true Christianity that promotes peace and tolerance, mercy and compassion. But, on one hand innocent people become victims, and on other, we are still discussing if something went wrong. Making mistake is far less serious than not recognizing it. And I am really upset to see this negative trend between Muslim-Christian relations. Peace

I cannot agree more with your last two paragraphs, brother.  As to the one prior to that I invite you to inspect the following statement:

"STATEMENT BY CARD. TARCISIO BERTONE, S.D.B.,
SECRETARY OF STATE

Saturday, 16 September 2006

Given the reaction in Muslim quarters to certain passages of the Holy Father's address at the University of Regensburg, and the clarifications and explanations already presented through the Director of the Holy See Press Office, I would like to add the following:

- The position of the Pope concerning Islam is unequivocally that expressed by the conciliar document Nostra Aetate: "The Church regards with esteem also the Muslims. They adore the one God, living and subsisting in Himself; merciful and all-powerful, the Creator of heaven and earth, Who has spoken to men; they take pains to submit wholeheartedly to even His inscrutable decrees, just as Abraham, with whom the faith of Islam takes pleasure in linking itself, submitted to God. Though they do not acknowledge Jesus as God, they revere Him as a prophet. They also honor Mary, His virgin Mother; at times they even call on her with devotion. In addition, they await the day of judgment when God will render their deserts to all those who have been raised up from the dead. Finally, they value the moral life and worship God especially through prayer, almsgiving and fasting" (no. 3)...

Continued at:
http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/secretariat_state/card-ber tone/2006/documents/rc_seg-st_20060916_dichiarazione_en.html

And I invite you to read the whole statement rather than the clip posted here, or what other talkers have had to say about it.  I think we --all-- tend to react far too quickly based upon what others (sometimes malevolent others) have said about something rather than restraining our passions to find out the full story.  And when we do we often multiply the magnitude of the problem many fold.

Its our human weakness, whether Jewish, Christian, Muslim or aetheist.  At its best religions give us tools and the desire to overcome these human weaknesses...and that's why its so ironic and frustrating to find these sorts of misunderstandings among people of faith, whichever one that is.

And let me be clear, it is my view that it is our faiths either incompletely or incorrectly taught or learned rather than the revelations which we share that results in these misunderstandings; from hardened hearts to the point of heedlessness to reason even to  murder, not from the revelations themselves.  And we are all called to resist the urge to fall into that Shaitonic trap.

Salaam.


Edited by runner