HAPPY Christmas?

Abu Loren,

Salaam Alaikum. It may be a good idea stop our debate where it is. I have made my points, and you have made yours. You have not been able to refute any of the points I have made, either about the story of the Thamud, or Muhammad's teaching on the Day of Resurrection.

Continue to follow your religion if you wish. I have respect for you for being so outspoken about your faith, even if I believe it is wrong.

I pray that one day you will come to Christ, so you can experience eternal life with Him in Heaven.


Take care,

TG12345

TG12345 wrote: Most of the answers provided were historically and scientifically and in other ways factually wrong. I showed this to be the case in my responses, and challenged the people who wrote them to respond.

Abu Loren wrote: Any answer that a Muslim can give MUST come from the Qur'an and Sunnah and not based on their own personal opinions.

I don't use personal opinion in my posts challenging most of the things that the Quran and hadiths teach. I was using scientific and historical facts, and I compare them to what Islam teaches.

Abu Loren wrote: Muslims have the TRUTH behind them and inevitably there will be people like you who will never understand because your premise to begin with is wrong. If you believe in the Trinity wholeheartedly then you will never understand the Qur'an. You will never understand that there is just God. He doesn't have to reveal Himself to mankind as 3 distinct persons as if He has multiple personality disorder. He is above what you associate with Him.

Even if I were to not believe that God is not a Trinity (astaghfirullah!), the mistakes contained in the Quran and hadiths would still stand out. When I read the Quran, I actually tried to set aside the fact that God exists as the Father, Son and Holy Spirit and what He did for us on the cross; so I could examine what the Quran has to say not from the lenses of my Christian faith. I asked God to just plain show me whether it is true or it isn't.

He certainly did show me.

Abu Loren wrote: Let's go back and examine your thread about Thamud. You are under the impression that the Nabataens contructed the buildings that are around the area known as Al Hijr.

Actually, both Muslim and non-Muslim historians and archaeologists say that. Look back to that thread. I gave source after source that all the same thing.

Abu Loren wrote:  Precious to this you asked a question asking if the people of Aad and Thamud existed before the people of Moses and Pharaoh and people here confirmed that they in fact did. So how do you judge? Why jump from a few thousand years to two thousand years?

I asked the Muslims on this forum whether Salih existed before Moses and Pharaoh and the answer was yes. I looked in the Quran itself, and it confirms that.

If the Thamud lived during in that area between 100 BC to AD 100 (around the time that these buildings were carved from rock), then the Quran could be correct in saying that they carved buildings from mountains in that area. Given that the Thamud lived more than a milennium prior to that time and these buildings were made in the time listed above, we know that they didn't make them. The Nabataeans did.

Abu Loren wrote:  The logical conclusion is that the Nabataens inherited the land of Al Hijr but you just simply would not accept that answer because in your head only you can be right and all the Muslims must be wrong.

Do us both a favour and read what I wrote. I didn't say that the Thamud didn't live in the area before the Nabataeans.

I am saying that they weren't the ones who carved buildings out of mountains. The Nabataeans were.

Go back to the thread and see all the sources I have provided.

Here are some more academic sources saying the same thing:

The National Museum Guide- Saudi Arabia Through the Ages

Al-Hajer (Medain Saleh)
Al-Hajer or Medain Saleh is located 22 kilometers
northeast of Al-Ula. Its historical reputation based
on its position along the ancient trade route linking
the Arabian Peninsula, the Levant, and Egypt. The
settlement had two main roads, the first one led to Petra
via Tabuk, and the other led to Mesopotamia through
Tayma and Dawmat al Jandal. Majority of the ruins in
the city date back to Nabatean period. Next to Petra, it
is no doubt the most important Nabataean site in the
world. Accounts from the Quran, however, tell of an
earlier settlement of the area by the tribe of Thamud.
rainwater tanks and places of worship.

Dedan and al-Hijr

At about the start of the Christian era, the Nabataeans took control of the oasis. They settled at al-Hijr, which grew considerably. It was from this period that the famous rock necropolis dates, with its splendid fa�ades cut in the sandstone like those at Petra.

In 106 AD, Rome annexed the Nabataean kingdom. Al-Hijr became a Roman town, as is
illustrated by a superb Latin inscription from the end of the reign of Marcus Aurelius
(161�180).

An inscription in Nabataean-type Aramaic, dating from the middle of the 4th century,
mentions princes of al-Hijr with biblical names. This fact is indicative that Judaism was probably the dominant religion.

Al-H�r was abandoned before Islam. The Quran refers to it as one of the victims of divine
anger (15:80�84). A French and Saudi archaeological team has been studying the site for about ten years.

Page 50
http://www.scta.gov.sa/Antiquities-M..._Arabie_ar.pdf

I challenge you to provide one academic source that dates these structures to any time prior to 100 BC- AD 100. Go ahead.

TG12345 wrote: Given that the Jews are monotheists who worship Allah, how would you explain the following narrations in which Muhammad describes the Day of Resurrection and how peoples will be judged on the basis of what they believe- during which allegedly every nation and every people will be asked to follow what they worshiped. He said that first of all, people who worshiped stones, false deities, idols, crosses will follow them and fall into hellfire until no one will be left but  those who worshiped God and some of the People of the Book. Then the Jews will allegedly be asked what they worshiped, and they will say "Ezra the Son of God" and will fall into hellfire. Then the Christians will be asked the same and they will say "Jesus the Son of God" and will fall into hellfire. Then Muslims will be asked and they will say they worshiped God, and the good ones among them will go to Paradise and the bad ones will spend some time in hell.As we know, 99.9% if not all religious Jews neither worship Ezra or Jesus or stones or crosses or idols or false deities. They also are not Muslims, and do not accept Muhammad as a Prophet of God.So what will happen to them on the Day of Resurrection? Muhammad neatly divided all the peoples and all the nations into categories that excludes Jews as well as other non-Christian and non-Muslim monotheists.

Abu Loren wrote: The Qur'an tells us that a sect of the Jews used to worhsip Ezra as the son of god just like the Chritians worship Jesus. God tells us not to associate anyone or anything with him in worship.

Correct.

Abu Loren wrote: We are also told in the Qur'an that those Jews and Christians who worshipped God in the proper way will receive their reward.

Correct. Do not the Quran and hadiths also teach that those who do not accept Muhammad as a messenger will go to hell?
 
Because that, as I am sure you know, describes the beliefs of most of the world's religious Jews. They worship God alone. Yet they also do not accept Muhammad. And they do not worship Ezra, stones, idols, crosses or false deities.

Yet Muhammad, in his teaching on the Day of Resurrection, described the fate of every person and every nation. It seems he was unaware of, or completely forgot about, about non-Christian and non-Muslim monotheists... like for example, the Jews.

We all make mistakes, of course. But given the fact he was telling his followers about the fate of the world on the Day of Resurrection, it makes you wonder where he was getting his info from. It wasn't Allah, that's for sure.

Abu Loren wrote: By the way, reading the Qur'an just once and thinking that you know it all will not help. It is a life long study to gain an iota of knowledge and He gives knowledge to whom He Wills.

I can read it again. The mistakes contained in it don't disappear.

Abu Loren wrote: In my own personal experience by reading the Qur'an over and over again you are given pieces of knowledge as if what you've just read wasn't there before. What I mean is that you will find a sentence that totally answers a question that you had in your head. The reason that you do not find any answers is because from the beginning you set out to disprove and invalidate the Qur'an. That was a bad idea. And you are still fighting against God by nit picking a verse here and verse there and trying to prove that a man made it all up.

I don't need to prove that the Quran is not from God. The errors contained in it, and the errors contained in Muhammad's teachings, show this very clearly.

PS BTW notice I didn't ever say on this forum that the Quran was made by a man. Read what I actually say before knocking down strawmen.

Abu Loren wrote: Repent then fall down on your face asking forgiveness.

I fall to my face asking God for forgiveness everyday. I hope that one day you do the same thing, and repent for not accepting what He did for you on the cross, and accusing Him of being the author of the Quran.


Edited by TG12345 - 18 February 2014 at 8:41pm

TG12345 wrote: Most of the answers provided were historically and scientifically and in other ways factually wrong. I showed this to be the case in my responses, and challenged the people who wrote them to respond.

Any answer that a Muslim can give MUST come from the Qur'an and Sunnah and not based on their own personal opinions. Muslims have the TRUTH behind them and inevitably there will be people like you who will never understand because your premise to begin with is wrong. If you believe in the Trinity wholeheartedly then you will never understand the Qur'an. You will never understand that there is just God. He doesn't have to reveal Himself to mankind as 3 distinct persons as if He has multiple personality disorder. He is above what you associate with Him.

Let's go back and examine your thread about Thamud. You are under the impression that the Nabataens contructed the buildings that are around the area known as Al Hijr. Precious to this you asked a question asking if the people of Aad and Thamud existed before the people of Moses and Pharaoh and people here confirmed that they in fact did. So how do you judge? Why jump from a few thousand years to two thousand years? The logical conclusion is that the Nabataens inherited the land of Al Hijr but you just simply would not accept that answer because in your head only you can be right and all the Muslims must be wrong.

TG12345 wrote: Given that the Jews are monotheists who worship Allah, how would you explain the following narrations in which Muhammad describes the Day of Resurrection and how peoples will be judged on the basis of what they believe- during which allegedly every nation and every people will be asked to follow what they worshiped. He said that first of all, people who worshiped stones, false deities, idols, crosses will follow them and fall into hellfire until no one will be left but� those who worshiped God and some of the People of the Book. Then the Jews will allegedly be asked what they worshiped, and they will say "Ezra the Son of God" and will fall into hellfire. Then the Christians will be asked the same and they will say "Jesus the Son of God" and will fall into hellfire. Then Muslims will be asked and they will say they worshiped God, and the good ones among them will go to Paradise and the bad ones will spend some time in hell.As we know, 99.9% if not all religious Jews neither worship Ezra or Jesus or stones or crosses or idols or false deities. They also are not Muslims, and do not accept Muhammad as a Prophet of God.So what will happen to them on the Day of Resurrection? Muhammad neatly divided all the peoples and all the nations into categories that excludes Jews as well as other non-Christian and non-Muslim monotheists.

The Qur'an tells us that a sect of the Jews used to worhsip Ezra as the son of god just like the Chritians worship Jesus. God tells us not to associate anyone or anything with him in worship.

We are also told in the Qur'an that those Jews and Christians who worshipped God in the proper way will receive their reward.

By the way, reading the Qur'an just once and thinking that you know it all will not help. It is a life long study to gain an iota of knowledge and He gives knowledge to whom He Wills.

In my own personal experience by reading the Qur'an over and over again you are given pieces of knowledge as if what you've just read wasn't there before. What I mean is that you will find a sentence that totally answers a question that you had in your head.

The reason that you do not find any answers is because from the beginning you set out to disprove and invalidate the Qur'an. That was a bad idea. And you are still fighting against God by nit picking a verse here and verse there and trying to prove that a man made it all up.

Repent then fall down on your face asking forgiveness.

at tg12345,those books were onlyfor those people and for that period of time,U shud watch dr zakir nak programs in which he describes how Prophet Muhammad(pbuh) being prophesied in different scriptures.