THE MESSAGE OF THE MESSENGERS

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Caringheart wrote: truthnowcome wrote: �...as my father hath sent me, even so I send you (the disciple) and  when he had said this, he breathed on them, and said unto them, received ye the holy ghost.� (John.20:21-22) Now, which account is correct? You don�t have to be an academic to recognize that. tnc Greetings TNC, I tried to answer this, but perhaps I did not do so clearly. The verse that you are quoting was from when Jesus was with his Apostle's after He had been resurrected.  He had gone. Do I even find it confusing?  Yes.  But I do not expect to understand all that is God.  Jesus had gone, and returned, that is all that I know.  The Apostle's (who were many) testified to His return, and the events of His return, and of His ascending.

Well, it seems to me you don�t know anything at all! You just guessing!

Let me show you what you need to know:

 

In the N.T. in John 16:16 (KJV) Jesus (s) told his disciples:

 

�A little while, and ye shall not see me: and again, a little while, and ye shall see me, because I go to the Father.� John 16:16 (KJV)

In the �New International Version� they remove part of the verse �because I go to the Father�

"In a little while you will see me no more, and then after a little while you will see me." John16 

 You see that! They remove this last part of the verse �because I go to the Father.� WHY? They knew the implication that is why they removed it! �going to the father� Christians understand it to mean �the death and resurrection�.

Let us read it in context, Jesus (S) said:

��A little while, and ye shall not see me: and again, a little while, and ye shall see me, because I go to the Father.� John 16 (KJV)  
 

Then some of the disciples were enquiring what he meant:

17Then said some of his disciples among themselves, What is this that he saith unto us, A little while, and ye shall not see me: and again, a little while, and ye shall see me: and, �Because I go to the Father?�
 18They said therefore, �What is this that he saith� A little while? we cannot tell what he saith.

Now, Jesus (S) explained: 

19Now Jesus knew that they were desirous to ask him, and said unto them, Do ye enquire among yourselves of that I said, �A little while, and ye shall not see me: and again, a little while, and ye shall see me?�

 In V.20to 32, Christians understood it to mean �the death and resurrection�. So, when he said: �Because I go to the Father� that is referring to his death. It read as follows:

20Verily, verily, I say unto you, That ye shall weep and lament, but the world shall rejoice: and ye shall be sorrowful, but your sorrow shall be turned into joy.

 21A woman when she is in travail hath sorrow, because her hour is come: but as soon as she is delivered of the child, she remembereth no more the anguish, for joy that a man is born into the world.

22And ye now therefore have sorrow: but I will see you again, and your heart shall rejoice, and your joy no man taketh from you.  

28 I came forth from the Father, and am come into the world: again, I leave the world, and go to the Father.

32Behold, the hour cometh, yea, is now come, that ye shall be scattered, every man to his own, and shall leave me alone: and yet I am not alone, because the Father is with me.

 33These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.

Which �hour� he is talking? The �hour� of �going to the Father�

  In that chapter, Christians understand �Because I go to the Father� to mean �the death and resurrection�. We Muslims understand it to mean the sign that was promised to the Jews when he said:

�For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the wale�s belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth�. Matt.12:40

Did Jonas die in the wale belly? No! He [Jesus (S)] went to Geth-sem-a-ne and pray asking God Almighty to change the situation.

And he took with him Peter and the two sons of Zebedee, and began to be sorrowful and very heavy. Then saith he unto them, My soul is exceeding sorrowful, even unto death: tarry ye here, and watch with me. And he went a little farther, and fell on his face. And prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou will. Matt.26:35-39

Notice, he fell on his face and PRAYING to his God asking him to change the situation? Yes! And what happen next? His God send an angel to help him.

And there appeared an angel unto him from heaven, strengthening him. (Luke 22:43)

Another point, he said: �My soul� and not �flesh�, not his human side �flesh� but his spiritual side �soul.� His soul was exceeding sorrowful even unto death, he fears death. Which God will fear death? According to the writings of the bible, The Father God was in him and with him in the same John 16: verse 32 and also john14:10.

Behold, the hour cometh, yea, is now come, that ye shall be scattered, every man to his own, and shall leave me alone: and yet I am �not alone,� because the Father is �with me�. (John 16: 32)

Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works. (John 14:10) 

If the Father is �with him and in him�, what is the purpose of �sending an angel?� Do angels strengthen God? Or why the angel has to strengthen Jesus (S) when all power was given unto him?

"...All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth." (Matthew 28:18)

The angel was assuring him what is going to happen. Did God Almighty answer his prayers? Let us examine what Jesus (S) has to say because all the disciples fled from the scene.

And they all forsook him and fled. (Mark 14:50)

 

AFTER THE SUPPOSE CRUCIFIXION:

And when she (Mary Magdalene) had thus said, she turned herself back, and saw Jesus standing, and she knew not that it was Jesus. Jesus saith unto her, Woman, why weepest thou? Whom seekest thou? She, supposing him to be the gardener... (John 20:14-15)

  Mary knew Jesus (S) all through his ministry and within a day and a half she did not recognize him, she took him for a gardener, why? Is it another man �the gardener� God Almighty substitute instead of Jesus (S) and place a spirit (Rooh) upon him to act as Jesus (S)? I suppose, if a Christians saw the so call photo of Jesus (s) now and after twenty years they would recognize it, is that a fact? O Yes! Even the disciples did not know him:

��But the disciples knew him not that it was Jesus.� John 21:4

Why? Because it was not him! Qur�an conforms that:

But they killed him not, nor crucified him, but it was made to appear to them so, and those who differ therein are full of doubt with no (certain) knowledge, but they follow only conjecture� (Q.4:157)

   Mary didn�t recognize him nether the Disciples. As the Qur�an rightly said: �There are full of doubt with no (certain) knowledge�

Behold! Allah said: �O Jesus! I will take thee and raise thee to Myself and clear thee (of the falsehoods) of those who blaspheme... (Q.3:55)

  The question is when did it happen? Is it possible when Jesus was at Gethsemane, because all the disciples were asleep which also indicate it was night too (see Matt.26:40) and that is where they laid hold on him (the supposed Jesus the Gardiner) Matt.26:57. May be, Allah (S) has placed a Spirit (Rooh) on him (the gardener) to act as Jesus (S). Of course, it was night and no one had that in mind [that Allah (S) will replace him with another man �the gardener� who Mary recognizes as. 

  Allah (S) said:

�And (the unbelievers) plotted and planned, and Allah too planned, and the best of planner is Allah! (Q.3:54)

   To be more certain it is not Jesus (S) we can look at the accounts of John when they were about to capture him:

   It is mentioned in John 18:1-8

V1When Jesus had spoken these words, he went forth with the disciples over the brook Cedron, where was a �GARDEN,� into which he entered, and his disciples.

V.3 Judas then, having received a band of men and officers from the chief priests and Pharisees, cometh thither with lanterns and torches and weapons.

V.4 Jesus therefore, knowing all things that should come upon him, went forth and said unto them, whom seek ye?

V.5 They answered him, Jesus of Nazareth. Jesus said unto them, I am he. And Judas also, which betrayed him, stood with them.

V.6 As soon then as he had said unto them, I am he, the went backward, and fell on the ground.

V.7 Then ask he them again, whom seek ye? And they said, Jesus of Nazareth.

V.8 Jesus answered, I have told you that I am he: if therefore ye seek me, let these go their way.

  There you can see how Christians miss the boat. They did see that his enemy didn�t �recognize� the man to be Jesus (S).

 They were asking for Jesus of Nazareth, Why? Because he was not there! V.4 says that: �Jesus therefore, knowing all things that should come upon him, went forth and said unto them, whom seek ye?�  Think about it, Jesus was asking them �whom seek ye?� and what they said? V.5 �They answered him, Jesus of Nazareth.� why? Because they didn�t recognize him as Jesus (S) and he was just in front of them, and the suppose Jesus �the gardener� according to Mary in John 20:15 where she supposing him to be the gardener said: �I am he�. And what happen after that? V.6 As soon then as he had said unto them, I am he, they went backward, and fell on the ground. Why? They were shock to know that they man whom they were looking for was right in front of them and they fall back, because they didn�t recognize him. AGAIN when he asks them in Verse7 they insisted �Jesus of Nazareth� why again? Because they didn�t recognize him to be Jesus (S), but the supposed Jesus the gardener insisted �I am he,� and in V. 8 he said: �I have told you that I am he� more emphasis add here, why? Because they didn�t recognize him as Jesus (S), and also where they caught him? In the �garden,� and what Mary said? �She supposes him to be the gardener.� Coincident!

 You see! He look like a �gardener� and was caught in the �garden�, And they didn�t �recognize� him. It was not him!

 

I've established that:

 

1- Mary didn't RECONIZE HIM, Why?

2- The Disciples didn't RECONIZE HIM, Why?

3- And also when Judas and his band went to capture him they didn't RECONOZE HIM, Why?

4- They captured him in the GARDEN,

5- And Mary took him for a GARDENER.

 And Allah (S) said:

�That the rejected Faith; That they utter against Mary a grave false charge; That they said (in boast): We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah, But they killed him not, nor crucified him, but it was made to appear to them so, and those who differ therein are full of doubt with no (certain) knowledge, but they follow only conjecture, for a surety they killed him not. Nay, Allah raised him up unto Himself; and Allah is Exalted in Power, Wise. And there is none of the people of the book (Jews and Christians) but must believe in him (Jesus) before his death; And on the Day of Judgment he (Jesus) will be a witness against them.� (Q.4:156-159)

  to be continue...

Caringheart,
so you realize your position, so its time to play!
Haha.
Hasan

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Caringheart wrote: truthnowcome wrote: Caringheart, there is a big difference between �WITH him� and �HE is� If the spirit of God is with him and he is the Spirit of God then what you are implying is that Jesus is with Jesus. So this verse �I saw the Spirit descending from heaven... and abode upon him.�(John 1:32) Will imply that Jesus abode upon Jesus. Which one is really Jesus (S)? thc Greetings TNC, Your question made me think of this: "Will the "real" Jesus please stand up."  Sorry just my humor. Anyway, "... there is a big difference between �WITH him� and �HE is� Truly there is not. The Spirit of God was with Him, and He was, and is, that Spirit of God. This goes to understanding the Holy Trinity, which I have as yet to be able to explain and make clear to any Muslim.  It must be a mystery revealed to the mind only by God himself. They are all one and the same... Father(Creator God), Son(Father in the flesh, conceived as the Son), and Holy Spirit(the spirit of God). Just as a three leaf clover has three leaves, but they are all part of one clover. This is the way I understand. Caringheart

Peace to you,

Caringheart don�t bring that crap to me about �Holy Trinity is a mystery to reveal by God Himself�. That is an excused when there is no explanation for  1+1+1 =1 !

If Father is the Creator God, and Son is Father in flesh well then the Father in flesh has no Power. He said: �I can of mine own self do nothing�� (John.5:30)

Also the Father in flesh has a God:

 

��Touch me not, for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and my God, and your God.� (John 20:16-17 AKJV)

 

According to him, his Father is �OUR GOD and HIS GOD; He has a GOD, He said: �MY GOD AND YOUR GOD.�

What a great mystery!

tnc

 

Caringheart wrote: "So this verse �I saw the Spirit descending from heaven... and abode upon him.�(John 1:32) Will imply that Jesus abode upon Jesus." The flesh was flesh before God sent the Spirit(the power of God), at baptism.  Did Jesus perform any miracles before receiving the Spirit, the power of God?  Until then He was flesh with divine knowledge but without the power. This is the way I understand. Caringheart

When Father God was in flesh he has no power he was a powerless God until he get help from Father Creator God; Father Creator God �SEND� Father Spirit God to help Father flesh God; what a mystery to revealed! And the three are one!

 

Caringheart there is no mystery about God and his Messengers. Let me show you what you don�t know about the message you claimed to believe.

 

Jesus (S) A FAITHFUL witness back there in the beginning:

�John to the seven churches which are in Asia: Grace be unto you, and peace, from �HIM� which is, and which was, and which is to come; �AND� FROM THE SEVEN SPIRITS WHICH ARE BEFORE HIS THRONE; V.5 �AND� from Jesus Christ, WHO IS THE FAITHFUL WITNESS�� Rev.1: 4-5

 

  As you can see all are distinct personality, First God Almighty: �GRACE BE UNTO YOU, AND PEACE, FROM �HIM� WHICH IS, AND WHICH WAS, AND WHICH IS TO COME�;

then the seven Spirits which is before the throne: �AND FROM THE SEVEN SPIRITS WHICH ARE BEFORE HIS THRONE�;

and then Jesus Christ who is a Faithfull witness: �AND FROM JESUS CHRIST, WHO IS THE FAITHFUL WITNESS�.

If the seven Spirits of God Almighty was part of Him well then they would also be on the throne, but they were before the throne worshiping God Almighty. So the One, which is, which was and which is to come is �GOD ALMIGHTY� because God Almighty existed as he is, He was here when Adam was created on earth; and is yet to come in the end. In Rev. 1: 8 mentioned that! He is the ALMIGHTY:

�I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the ALMIGHTY�. Rev.1:8 

The seven spirits were before the ALMIGHTY GOD�S THRONE and JESUS (S) WAS A �FAITHFUL WITNESS�. In Revelation 4: 2-11 and 5:1-7 mentioned who was on the Throne:

Revelation 4:2-11:

And immediately I (John) was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and ONE SAT ON THE THRONE. Rev. 4:2

 

The one that sits on the throne is God!

And he that sat WAS TO LOOK UPON LIKE A JASPER and a sardine stone: and there was a rainbow round about the throne, in sight like unto an emerald. Rev.4:3

 And round about the throne were four and twenty seats: and upon the seats I saw four and twenty elders sitting, clothed in white raiment; and they had on their heads crowns of gold. Rev.4:4 

And out of the throne preceded lightnings and thunderings and voices: and there were seven lamps of fire burning BEFORE THE THRONE, WHICH ARE THE SEVEN SPIRITS OF GOD. Rev.4:5  

 

THE SEVEN SPIRIT IS BEFORE THE THRONE AND NOT ON THE THRONE; THEY ARE NOT PART OF GOD ALMIGHTY.

And when those beasts give glory and honour and thanks to him that sat on the throne, who liveth for ever and ever, Rev.4:9

Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created. Rev.4:11

THE ONE THAT SITS ON THE THRONE:

Revelation 5

And I saw in the right hand of �him that sat on the throne� a book written within and on the backside, sealed with seven seals. Rev.5:1

The One that sits on the throne has a book, and what he did with it? Let�s find out.

And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof.Rev.5:5

And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth. Rev.5:6

And he came and took the book out of the right hand of him that sat upon the throne. Rev.5:7

You see that? The One that sits on the throne has a book, and what happen with the book? The lamb took it. So, who took the book out of the right hand of him that sat on the throne? The Lamb! And who is sitting on the throne? God Almighty!

Nothing new! It�s all in Revelation 1:1

The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John. Rev.1:1

�For I have not spoken on My own authority; but the Father who sent Me gave Me a command, what I should say and what I should speak." (John 12:49)

And who was Jesus (S)? Revelation 1:5 says:

�Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness!�

And who is God Almighty? He is the �creator�:

�Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.  Rev.4:11

And when those beasts give glory and honour and thanks to him that sat on the throne, who liveth for ever and ever,� Rev.4:9 

 

The God of the O.T. has (Holy) Spirits by the thousand. It is mentioned in Rev.4:5

�And out of the throne preceded lightnings and thunderings and voices: and there were seven lamps of fire burning before the throne, WHICH ARE THE SEVEN SPIRITS OF GOD.� Rev.4:5

And before the throne there was a sea of glass like unto crystal: and in the midst of the throne, and round about the throne, were four beasts FULL OF EYES before and behind. Rev.4:6 

What are these eyes? They represented Spirits:

�AND SEVEN EYES, which are the SEVEN SPIRITS OF GOD sent forth into all the earth. Rev.5:6

And the four beasts had each of them six wings about him; and they were FULL OF EYES WITHIN: and they rest not day and night, saying, Holy, holy, holy, LORD God Almighty, which was, and is, and is to come.  Rev.4:8

EYE REPRESENTS �SPIRIT� AND THOSE SPIRITS ARE SPIRITS FROM GOD ALMIGHTY AND THEY ARE HOLY. WHAT ARE THEY DOING? THEY ARE PRAISING GOD ALMIGHTY SAYING: �HOLY, HOLY, HOLY, LORD GOD ALMIGHTY�.

THIS IS A DIFFERENT LEVEL OF INFORMATION COMING MY FRIEND!

So we can see God Almighty has Holy Spirits by the thousands! The Spirit (Ruh) and the angels will stand forth in front of Allah (S):

�  يَوْمَ يَقُومُ الرُّوحُ وَالْمَلَائِكَةُ صَفًّا لَّا يَتَكَلَّمُونَ إِلَّا مَنْ أَذِنَ لَهُ الرحْمَنُ وَقَالَ صَوَابًا (78:38)

Yawma yaqoomu alrroohu waalmalaikatu saffan la yatakallamoona illa man athina lahu alrrahmanu waqala sawaban (Qur�an 78:38)

�The Day that the spirit and the angels will stand forth in ranks, none shall speak except any who is permitted by (Allah) Most Gracious, and He will say what is right.� (Qur�an 78:38)

 

tnc

Edited by truthnowcome - 21 October 2012 at 10:22pm

honeto wrote: Caringheart wrote: honeto wrote: Hasan Greetings,I really hate when people confuse my words when I think I have been quite clear.  I will say it again.The Holy Spirit whom Jesus referred to while He was with His apostles was Himself... the Holy Spirit was in Jesus... remember the Spirit of God... the dove... which descended upon Jesus when John the Baptist baptized Him?  Jesus promised to send the Holy Spirit to His apostles after He was gone from the earth... that the Holy Spirit could not come into them while He was still here on earth, but when He was gone they would not be left alone... that when He was gone he would send that Spirit[of Himself] to them, to indwell them.While with them in the flesh, Jesus was that Holy Spirit of God.Once he was gone the Holy Spirit came into the Apostle's at pentacost.No confusion.Is it a mystery?  Yes.  Mystery is not the same as confusion.Salaam Caringheart, That creates a couple of more questions at least, I will ask only one at this time the second one after you clearify: 1-So at that time two persons of the "Trinity" were on earth, one being the "Holy Spirit" and other being the "Jesus, Son of God" according to you? If that was the case, whatever is coming out of Jesus' mouth, is it both speaking combined or is it Jesus the son of God, or God the Holy Spirit talking? I want your clear answer to that question so I can proceed. Hasan

Greetings Hasan,

I say this most respectfully to you.  You and I have gone over the understanding of the Holy Trinity so many times that I don't wish to keep going over it with you.
I only engaged TNC because he was interested and we had not as yet discussed it.
But because my time and energy is limited, I don't wish to go around in circles on the subject.  I believe it has to be revealed by the Spirit of God and He reveals it to those with open hearts to receive it.  You can always read back through some of our earlier conversations. 
To give an answer to your question though, because you have most respectfully asked;

"1-So at that time two persons of the "Trinity" were on earth, one being the "Holy Spirit" and other being the "Jesus, Son of God" according to you?
If that was the case, whatever is coming out of Jesus' mouth, is it both speaking combined or is it Jesus the son of God, or God the Holy Spirit talking? "

They are one and the same.  Father, Son, Holy Spirit.
I wonder if you would read the book The Shack, if that would help illuminate the relationship, as I thought it did a very good job of doing when I read it.

My sincerest wishes for you Hasan,
Caringheart