Killing in Pakistan for drinking tea... |
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Shasta'sAunt
Senior Member Female Joined: 29 March 2008 Status: Offline Points: 1930 |
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Natassia, there you go leaving out pertinent verses again.
Corinthians 7:15But if the unbelieving depart, let him depart. A brother or a sister is not under bondage in such cases: but God hath called us to peace.
Pauline privilegeFrom Wikipedia, the free encyclopediaThe Pauline Privilege (Privilegium Paulinum) is a Christian concept drawn from the apostle Paul's instructions in the First Epistle to the Corinthians. [edit] OriginIn Paul's epistle it states:
The first section, "not I but the Lord", matches Jesus' teaching on divorce, found in the Expounding of the Law, Matthew 19:9, Luke 16:18, and Mark 10:11. The second section, "I say, not the Lord", gives Paul's own teaching on divorce. Pauline PrivilegeScriptural AuthoritySt. Paul wrote, 1 Cor 7:12 �To the rest I say, not the Lord, that if any brother has a wife who is an unbeliever, and she consents to live with him, he should not divorce her. If any woman has a husband who is an unbeliever, and he consents to live with her, she should not divorce him. For the unbelieving husband is consecrated through his wife, and the unbelieving wife is consecrated through her husband. Otherwise, your children would be unclean, but as it is they are holy. But if the unbelieving partner desires to separate, let it be so; in such a case the brother or sister is not bound. For God has called us to peace.�
ConditionsThe Catholic Church can dissolve a marriage bond, allowing the Catholic party to re-marry, if:
Some Observations The Pauline Privilege applies only when both parties were unbaptized at the time of the marriage. It is not the same as an annulment. The Pauline Privilege dissolves a real but natural marriage. An annulment is a declaration that no valid marriage ever existed. If one party was baptized and the other unbaptized at the time of the marriage, the marriage is still natural but can be dissolved only by the Pope personally, exercising his authority as the Vicar of Christ and executive agent of divine law. This is called the Petrine Privilege because it is reserved to the Chair of Peter, and very rare. If both parties were baptized at the time of the marriage it is a sacramental and supernatural marriage, and is indissoluble, even if one party abandons his Christian faith. 1 Cor 7:10 �To the married I give charge, not I but the Lord, that the wife should not separate from her husband.� There is Biblical precedent for dissolving a marriage between a faithful person and an unbeliever, when the Jews put away their pagan wives. Ezra 10:1 �While Ezra prayed and made confession, weeping and casting himself down before the house of God, a very great assembly of men, women, and children, gathered to him out of Israel; for the people wept bitterly. And Shecani�ah the son of Jehi�el, of the sons of Elam, addressed Ezra: �We have broken faith with our God and have married foreign women from the peoples of the land, but even now there is hope for Israel in spite of this. Therefore let us make a covenant with our God to put away all these wives and their children, according to the counsel of my lord and of those who tremble at the commandment of our God; and let it be done according to the law. Arise, for it is your task, and we are with you; be strong and do it.� Then Ezra arose and made the leading priests and Levites and all Israel take oath that they would do as had been said. So they took the oath.� http://www.secondexodus.com/html/catholicdefinitions/paulineprivilege.htm |
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�No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.�
Eleanor Roosevelt |
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peacemaker
Moderator Group Male Joined: 29 December 2005 Location: Canada Status: Offline Points: 3057 |
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Everyone,
Please stick to the topic and comply with the section and the forum guidelines.
Peace
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Then which of the favours of your Lord will ye deny?
Qur'an 55:13 |
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Natassia
Senior Member Joined: 16 July 2009 Status: Offline Points: 177 |
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@ Shasta's Aunt
You wrote: Yet Jesus, his family, and his direct disciples never broke the Jewish dietary laws. So, Jesus never broke the dietary laws but a gospel written 70 years after his death, after Paul's epistles regarding gentiles and his views of the dietary laws had been written, has a parable that some have concluded means all food is allowed and the swine eating frenzy begins. Never mind what Jesus actually did...
((sigh)) Pigs are no dirtier than chickens. You are more likely to get a disease nowadays from poultry than you would from pork, especially if the pork is cooked thoroughly. Christians have some pretty solid theology to explain the spiritual meanings behind the food laws found in the Torah. I do wonder what the Islamic theology is that explains their dietary restrictions. So far I've heard some unscientific answers such as "pigs are dirty animals and you can get really bad diseases from them" (as if you can't get mad cow disease from beef or salmonella from poultry or mercury poisoning from fish) and some vague responses like, "it's a test." It's not a test for a vegetarian. Also, you do not know that his family and disciples never broke the Jewish dietary laws. Obviously the Jewish religious leaders felt they did and took exception to it. Jesus came to fulfill the law. He satisfied it completely by adhering to all of the commands, and then he offered his perfect life as a sacrificial Lamb in atonement for our sins. You are picking and plucking at dietary laws when you don't even know why they were in place or why Jesus would have followed them in the first place. And what Jesus was telling people about 'unclean' and 'clean' was not a parable. He was speaking directly and clearly on the matter. That's why the writer of the gospel of Mark interpretated his meaning to be that all food was declared clean. That's why another writer, the author of the Acts of the Apostles, also concluded such a thing when he recorded Peter's vision. And Paul, the writer of our earliest Christian scriptures, also verified this belief in his epistles. The earliest Christians who wrote the scriptures agreed that Jesus had fulfilled the dietary laws when he ended the separation between Gentiles and Jews and Man's separation from God. The gospel of Matthew was written by a different author from both Mark and Acts. However, this gospel confirms the teaching that it isn't what you ingest that makes you 'unclean' but rather what comes out of your heart. You are missing the meat of the message (pun intended) in favor of promoting your belief that eating swine does in fact make you unclean. (By the way, according to the Torah, Israelites weren't supposed to eat camels either.) And where did Paul permit divorce? I Corinthians 7
10To the married I give this command (not I, but the Lord): A wife must not separate from her husband. 11But if she does, she must remain unmarried or else be reconciled to her husband. And a husband must not divorce his wife.
12To the rest I say this (I, not the Lord): If any brother has a wife who is not a believer and she is willing to live with him, he must not divorce her. 13And if a woman has a husband who is not a believer and he is willing to live with her, she must not divorce him. 14For the unbelieving husband has been sanctified through his wife, and the unbelieving wife has been sanctified through her believing husband. Otherwise your children would be unclean, but as it is, they are holy.
27Are you married? Do not seek a divorce...
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You diligently study the Scriptures because you think that by them you possess eternal life. These are the Scriptures that testify about me, yet you refuse to come to me to have life. (John 5:39-40)
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Natassia
Senior Member Joined: 16 July 2009 Status: Offline Points: 177 |
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Same story recorded by two different people who may or may not have been relying on a shared primary source.
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You diligently study the Scriptures because you think that by them you possess eternal life. These are the Scriptures that testify about me, yet you refuse to come to me to have life. (John 5:39-40)
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Akhe Abdullah
Senior Member Male Joined: 19 November 2008 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 1252 |
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Question: are these verses repeats Matthew 15,1-12and Mark 7,1-7 ?
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Shasta'sAunt
Senior Member Female Joined: 29 March 2008 Status: Offline Points: 1930 |
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" 17After he had left the crowd and entered the house, his disciples asked him about this parable. 18"Are you so dull?" he asked. "Don't you see that nothing that enters a man from the outside can make him 'unclean'? 19For it doesn't go into his heart but into his stomach, and then out of his body." (In saying this, Jesus declared all foods "clean.")" Yet Jesus, his family, and his direct disciples never broke the Jewish dietary laws. So, Jesus never broke the dietary laws but a gospel written 70 years after his death, after Paul's epistles regarding gentiles and his views of the dietary laws had been written, has a parable that some have concluded means all food is allowed and the swine eating frenzy begins. Never mind what Jesus actually did...
Here is the Matthew version of the same story, different ending:
Matthew15:15Then answered Peter and said unto him, Declare unto us this parable.
16And Jesus said, Are ye also yet without understanding? 17Do not ye yet understand, that whatsoever entereth in at the mouth goeth into the belly, and is cast out into the draught? 18But those things which proceed out of the mouth come forth from the heart; and they defile the man. 19For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies: 20These are the things which defile a man: but to eat with unwashen hands defileth not a man. A bit of a difference between making unclean food lawful and making unclean hands lawful.
I wonder why Christians aren't as keen about other passages in Mark. Like the ones where Jesus forbid divorce, but wait, the Pauline Privilege changed that too......
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�No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.�
Eleanor Roosevelt |
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Natassia
Senior Member Joined: 16 July 2009 Status: Offline Points: 177 |
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@ Shasta's Aunt
I suppose these scriptures are worthless then...
Matthew 15
10Jesus called the crowd to him and said, "Listen and understand. 11What goes into a man's mouth does not make him 'unclean,' but what comes out of his mouth, that is what makes him 'unclean.' " 12Then the disciples came to him and asked, "Do you know that the Pharisees were offended when they heard this?" 13He replied, "Every plant that my heavenly Father has not planted will be pulled up by the roots. 14Leave them; they are blind guides. If a blind man leads a blind man, both will fall into a pit." 15Peter said, "Explain the parable to us." 16"Are you still so dull?" Jesus asked them. 17"Don't you see that whatever enters the mouth goes into the stomach and then out of the body? 18But the things that come out of the mouth come from the heart, and these make a man 'unclean.' 19For out of the heart come evil thoughts, murder, adultery, sexual immorality, theft, false testimony, slander. 20These are what make a man 'unclean'; but eating with unwashed hands does not make him 'unclean.' " Mark 7
14Again Jesus called the crowd to him and said, "Listen to me, everyone, and understand this. 15Nothing outside a man can make him 'unclean' by going into him. Rather, it is what comes out of a man that makes him 'unclean.' " 17After he had left the crowd and entered the house, his disciples asked him about this parable. 18"Are you so dull?" he asked. "Don't you see that nothing that enters a man from the outside can make him 'unclean'? 19For it doesn't go into his heart but into his stomach, and then out of his body." (In saying this, Jesus declared all foods "clean.") 20He went on: "What comes out of a man is what makes him 'unclean.' 21For from within, out of men's hearts, come evil thoughts, sexual immorality, theft, murder, adultery, 22greed, malice, deceit, lewdness, envy, slander, arrogance and folly. 23All these evils come from inside and make a man 'unclean.' " Silly Christians for believing in their scriptures. |
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You diligently study the Scriptures because you think that by them you possess eternal life. These are the Scriptures that testify about me, yet you refuse to come to me to have life. (John 5:39-40)
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Shasta'sAunt
Senior Member Female Joined: 29 March 2008 Status: Offline Points: 1930 |
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Nope. Jesus kept all of the Mosaic Laws. Here is why the dietary Laws were discarded:
Acts 10:9On the morrow, as they went on their journey, and drew nigh unto the city, Peter went up upon the housetop to pray about the sixth hour:
10And he became very hungry, and would have eaten: but while they made ready, he fell into a trance, 11And saw heaven opened, and a certain vessel descending upon him, as it had been a great sheet knit at the four corners, and let down to the earth: 12Wherein were all manner of fourfooted beasts of the earth, and wild beasts, and creeping things, and fowls of the air. 13And there came a voice to him, Rise, Peter; kill, and eat. 14But Peter said, Not so, Lord; for I have never eaten any thing that is common or unclean. 15And the voice spake unto him again the second time, What God hath cleansed, that call not thou common. 16This was done thrice: and the vessel was received up again into heaven. Acts 15:19Wherefore my sentence is, that we trouble not them, which from among the Gentiles are turned to God:
20But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood. 21For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day. 22Then pleased it the apostles and elders with the whole church, to send chosen men of their own company to Antioch with Paul and Barnabas; namely, Judas surnamed Barsabas and Silas, chief men among the brethren: 23And they wrote letters by them after this manner; The apostles and elders and brethren send greeting unto the brethren which are of the Gentiles in Antioch and Syria and Cilicia. 24Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment:
26Men that have hazarded their lives for the name of our Lord Jesus Christ.
27We have sent therefore Judas and Silas, who shall also tell you the same things by mouth.
28For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things;
29That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare ye well. 11And ye shall circumcise the flesh of your foreskin; and it shall be a token of the covenant betwixt me and you.
12And he that is eight days old shall be circumcised among you, every man child in your generations, he that is born in the house, or bought with money of any stranger, which is not of thy seed.
13He that is born in thy house, and he that is bought with thy money, must needs be circumcised: and my covenant shall be in your flesh for an everlasting covenant.
14And the uncircumcised man child whose flesh of his foreskin is not circumcised, that soul shall be cut off from his people; he hath broken my covenant. Edited by Shasta'sAunt - 05 August 2009 at 12:45pm |
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�No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.�
Eleanor Roosevelt |
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