Where is the Injeel?

BMZ wrote:   Angela wrote: I'm looking forward to your elloboration.  The statement that the Injeel is in the Gospels but not the Gospels is kinda a cop out.  (sorry sweetie)  Why would any being allow for his message to be corrupted so?    Angela, I have not elaborated yet. I have not even said much. Please bear with me. There is no cop out. Angela wrote:   Many muslims argue with me on the Gospels because they were written anywhere from 20-100 years after the Crucifixion, they are complete fabrications.   For 50 years or so there were no gospels. Only Paul's letters were flying around. Qur'aan was already in the hearts and minds of Prophet's companions, while what Jesus preached was not even memorised in the hearts of his disciples at all. They had narrated to others who had narrated to some others till there were so many gospels written by many people.

Not true, BMZ.  All the Gospels with possibly the Gospel of John were written prior to 70AD.  Luke is thought to have been written around 64AD.  If Mark was written first it would have been written prior to 64AD, possibly in the mid-to late 50's.

Jesus' disciples did memorize his sayings.  This was very typical of Jews.  They memorized and recited.

There is some evidence that some of Muhammad's companions did not know all of the verses and could not recite them properly.

Paul's letters were not "flying around."  They were written to specific churches for specific reasons.  There is no evidence that all churches in existence had those letters.

BMZ wrote: In case of Qur'aan, whether it took 5 years or 150 years or 500 years, it was written down with all verses as revealed to Muhammad. Qur'aan was not written down by various authors telling stories.

That has no bearing on its truthfulness.  What you have is the testimony of one man.  Christianity has the testimony of 500 and more.

BMZ wrote: So much was written by men that the preaching and teachings of Jesus became like "salt in the flour" and more gospels were neeeded to find what he taught. Men who wrote the gospels are not even known by their real names and identities. No one truly knows who wrote what and for who. Matthew wrote for Matthew, Luke wrote for Peter, John wrote for John or Paul. No one knows. Even Christian scholars agree on this.

Again, you are historically wrong.  Matthew wrote Matthew, Mark wrote Peter's testimony, Luke wrote the testimony of many, John wrote his gospel.  There are no other "gospels" needed to find out what Jesus taught.  Take a look at some of the non-canonical books.  They say that Jesus died on the cross, rose from the dead, was the Messiah, died for our sins and made Jesus more divine that the 4 gospels do.

BMZ wrote: Can we believe that,"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning." this was taught and preached by Jesus? This was the view of John, not Jesus. Hence, we can say that this was not the Injeel.

Yes, we can.  Don't forget that John was an apostle of Jesus'.  They spoke of many things.  It is very evident that Jesus considered himself to be divine in the claims that he made and in the reaction of the Jews who encountered this claim.

BMZ wrote: Injeel is what Jesus taught and preached. Jesus only preached and taught. What did he teach? He taught the Torah. The Book Torah was his book. What Jesus taught and preached is the Injeel, a knowledge full of wisdom, that was given to him by God.

I have already written up some of what Jesus taught.  Cite the verses in the Gospel where Jesus taught the Torah and explain what he taught about the Torah. 

BMZ wrote: When we read the statement,"Thou shall worship only thy Lord God.", we know that was spoken by Jesus and we accept it as Injeel.

Yes, he taught that.  I think it would take about 4 or 5 seconds to say those words.  Do you think he repeated them continually for 3 years and said nothing else?

BMZ wrote: The entire stories written about him and the people are not what he taught. As such they cannot be Injeel.

Such as?  It is very important to know the reactions and thoughts of those who heard him preach.  It is vital.  Besides teaching that he was bringing in the kingdom of God, he taught that he would die and rise again.  He was seen risen by his apostles.  His brother James became a believer after seeing Jesus after he arose from the dead.  Three thousand people because Christians on the day of Pentacost.

BMZ wrote: Angela wrote:   Now, given that Moses (pbuh) supposedly wrote the Torah (which included the 1st 5 books of the Old Testament) and that Muhammed (pbuh) wrote down the Quran as it was revealled, why did Christ not write down the Injeel????   His followers never bothered to write it down during his short ministry.

I think you are again mistaken.  It is inconceivable that Jesus' followers did not write down his sayings and his parables.  Many were scribes and it was there job to write things down.

BMZ wrote: After he was long gone, then it started by Paul taking the lead role as fast as he could, by circulating his letters.

Again you are wrong.  James took the lead.  Paul's letters were written to specific churches based on their needs as said above.

BMZ wrote: Only then people realised and started writng but men's messages grew in size more than the messages and teachings of Jesus.

What?  Now you are making stuff up.

BMZ wrote: Initially it was all oral teachings and everyone had some parchments but not the entire teachings.

Yes, Jesus' gospel was preached orally.  On what historical basis do you claim "everyone had some parchments but not the entire teachings?"

BMZ wrote: One can see serious differences among Paul, Barnabas and the elders at Jerusalem.

Such as?  The apostles in Jerusalem gave Paul and Barnabas their blessings.

BMZ wrote: Had people followed his true teachings and preachings, there would not have been any need for so many gospels to have been written by many and there would have been no need to have even four gospels canonised.

What were Jesus' "true teachings."  He taught that he would die and rise again and he did.  This is recorded in all 4 gospels.  The reason for 4 gospels is that each wrote to a different audience�the same message.  Matthew to the Jews others to the Gentiles, for instance.

BMZ wrote: In short, the gospels do contain the teachings and preaching of Jesus but they contain more material from men.

So what?  The men agreed with Jesus.

BMZ wrote: That is why, all Hadith literature was kept away from Qur'aan to make sure that the Word of God did not get mixed with the words of men.

They why don't you throw out all of the Hadith literature?  Why keep it?  Why read it?

BMZ wrote: Angel, hope you are reading this. And Angela, I hope you got me right this time!

I hope that both read my corrections on your mistakes.

Edited by AnnieTwo

Thank you for the gentle correction, Ummziba.  The word trial can be taken different ways, but your point is quite clear.

My personal interpretation is it's more like a trial run of a new machine.  You run it, see where it fails, fix it and try again.  This fits well with Christian forgveness, but it can see where it doesn't quite fit the Quran.

I get BMZ's point about the injeel being a subset of the gospels.

I think a starting point might be the Sermon on the Mount, which begins in Matthew 5.

The Quran:
5:46 And in their footsteps We sent Jesus the son of Mary, confirming the Law that had come before him: We sent him the gospel: therein was guidance and light, and confirmation of the Law that had come before him: a guidance and an admonition to those who fear Allah.

Matthew 5:17
Do not think that I have come to do away with or aundo the Law or the Prophets; I have come not to do away with or undo but to complete and fulfill them.
Matt. 5:18 For truly I tell you, until the sky and earth pass away and perish, not one smallest letter nor one little hook [identifying certain Hebrew letters] will pass from the Law until all things [it foreshadows] are accomplished.

This seems to be a point, and a significant one, where the Islamic criterion is useful
Quran 3:3
It is He Who sent down to thee (step by step), in truth, the Book, confirming what went before it; and He sent down the Law (of Moses) and the gospel (of Jesus) before this, as a guide to mankind, and He sent down the criterion (of judgment between right and wrong).

The Quran itself states the Gospel is inaccurate in some way, and to use the criterion (Quran) to discern what is valid.  Based on the Sermon on the mount and Quran 5:46 this part of the gospel seems to be a likely candidate for acceptance by Islam. 

Why not start here, and save John 6:40 for another day?

Brother israfil

Allah swt says in Holy Quran, [39:42] Allah takes the souls at the time of their death, and those that die not during their sleep; then He withholds those on whom He has passed the decree of death and sends the others back till an appointed term; most surely there are signs in this for a people who reflect.

And also, '[31:34] Surely Allah is He with Whom is the knowledge of the hour, and He sends down the rain and He knows what is in the wombs; and no one knows what he shall earn on tomorrow; and no one knows in what land he shall die; surely Allah is Knowing, Aware.

Allah swt has also told us in many places in Holy Quran that Sayyidina Muhammad (saw) is the last Prophet. These are only three examples of His perfect knowledge of what to take place. He knows the time of last hour, the appointed term, because he knows how things are going to span out. As He knows how people are going to react to Prophets (as) and when they will currupt the real teachings so when the new teachings are going to be needed.

Now His perfect knowledge and His will dont inhibit our free will. His will is giving us sight and option of able to chose either good or bad. It is upto us what we choose but with His perfect knowledge He knows what we going to choose. Take example of behaviour psychology, even though you present a little child with many options, kids most likely would respond in a manner we would expect. You give them option of watching a cartoon or some documentary, 9 out of 10 is cartoons. This is what us limited, finite beings can predict, who only know through experience, cant really read the mind of a child. Now think about our dear Lord, Most High, He said in Holy Quran that He is closer to us than our jugular vein, He is between us and our heart, He knows what our ownself whispers to us. So why is it strange for you to acknowledge the fact that He knows our choices.

wassalam