I posted this last week.  Maryah also posted the same topic and URL.  I hope that some of you have become involved.  Amnesty have also become vocal as well as AVAAZ, But this is more than a petition and begs a question. I would like to know what your opinions are on this question...............

________________________________________________________

Quote Cassandra:

Please read and if you wish get involved with the petition below.  Who and what may not be important.  A tradition is clearly at stake along with these young lives.  Whisper, obviously your comments especially would be appreciated.  C

http://www.islamicity.com/forum/javascript%20ol'http://www.avaaz.org/en/honour_the_afghan_code/b.php/?CLICKTRACK'; - http://www.avaaz.org/en/honour_the_afghan_code/b.php/?CLICKT RACK

Thanks for your re-appearance, it's a delight, but the site fails to appear, I have been trying for sometime and end up in the Islamicity home page.

Muslim Advocacy Groups Condemn Kidnapping

By Audrey Hudson

The Washington Times

Muslim advocacy groups in the United States are condemning the recent kidnapping of 23 South Koreans in Afghanistan and are demanding their release.

The Christian missionaries have been held since July 19 by the Taliban, which is seeking the release of Taliban prisoners held by the Afghan government.

The Taliban killed two of the hostages, including group leader Shim Sung-min, 29, after saying that its demands had not been met.

A spokeswoman for the Council on American-Islamic Relations yesterday said the group "condemns the taking of the Korean hostages and demands that the kidnappers release them immediately and unconditionally."

Imam Mahdi Bray, executive director of Muslim American Society (MAS) Freedom Foundation, sent a formal letter of condolence to the Republic of Korea's ambassador to the U.S. on Tuesday and issued a public statement of condemnation.

"MAS Freedom completely condemns the taking and killing of South Korean Christian hostages in Afghanistan as not only a gross violation of the human rights of these captives, but also a horrible violation of the norms of basic human decency," Mr. Bray said.

"These actions are completely contrary to the basic tenets of Islam, and for the sake of our Lord, we implore those who have taken these hostages to return them safely to their loved ones, and to stop this madness," he added.

Dr. Zuhdi Jasser, chairman of the American Islamic Forum for Democracy (AIFD), said the hostage-taking "is a stark reminder of who our enemies are and the barbaric means they will continue to use to achieve their goals of militant Islamism."

S. Korea sending delegation to U.S. to seek help

"AIFD calls upon the Karzai administration and coalition countries working together against militant Islamists to harness our united military and diplomatic resources to achieve the release of the hostages and the defeat of their captors," Dr. Jasser said.

The World Muslim Organization in London yesterday warned about the effects of the kidnapping on the Muslim faith.

"Acts of violence and causing harm to innocent people will only damage the shining image of our great faith and no one will like to join our faith any more, after seeing what abnormal and thoughtless militants are doing to our innocent South Korean brothers. Let us leave such acts for the enemies of Islam," the group said.

The Associated Press reported that the Afghan army dropped leaflets yesterday warning of impending military action in the region where the missionaries are being held, but the army said the operation is not connected to the captives.

Gov. Marajudin Pathan said the Taliban agreed to a face-to-face meeting with Korea's ambassador to Afghanistan. Qari Yousef Ahmadi, who claims to speak for the Taliban militants, says the remaining 21 hostages were still alive, though two female captives were gravely ill and could die at any time.

South Korea is sending a parliamentary delegation to the United States to seek cooperation in resolving the crisis, and relatives of the hostages pleaded with U.S. Embassy officials during an hourlong visit for help in negotiating their loved ones' release.

The South Korean president's office said yesterday that Washington was involved in efforts to win the hostages' release, but at a basic level.

"We understand their dilemma and limits," presidential spokesman Cheon Ho-sun said.

� This article is based in part on wire service reports.

URL: http://wpherald.com/articles/5562/1/US-Muslims-demand-release-of-Taliban-hostages/Muslim-advocacy-groups-condemn-kidnapping.html - http://wpherald.com/articles/5562/1/US-Muslims-demand-releas e-of-Taliban-hostages/Muslim-a dvocacy-groups-condemn-kidnapping.html

Thanks a million, it finally opened and I am now 86,261!

This is simply against the very core of Pathaan character, tradition and code of conduct I have ever known or, in some way, loved. One of those few moments when shame just descends and dulls the mind and also the spirit.

Would you ever believe a man like me going just speechless?

Mailed the link to a few others.  

Israfil wrote: What crime did they commit and even if there was a crime (by religious provocation) show that they deserved to die in the manner that they did? They were captured and were given a time line. No trial. No jury. Simply proven guilty and killed. To what legal system were these rebels acting on? I would agree that it is common sense especially given the nature of the situation to not rush in a predominantly Muslim country trying to convert people because their actions draws attention. However, it is un-Islamic to kill someone without evidence.

how do you know they had "no evidence"???

At the very least these guys were preaching the religion of the invaders, and may well have also been spying for their country's occupation forces.

Why of all the countries in the world did they go and preach in Afghanistan? Why didnt they go and preach to their own people and their neighbours, many of whom are atheists. Why try to convert religious Muslims?
Let me tell you why, because they were payed to do so, what better way of increasing support for "Christian" occupiers than converting the occupied people to christianity?

Far from being "innocent civilians", these people were important agents of the ruthless occupation forces.

And all this is based on what we know about them, as I say it is highly likely that they were doing much worse things secretly, but what they did openly was bad enough.

Somehow they were found out as NGOs! Were they not? And according to the following statement they were part of the invading force!

Colin Powell's famous dictum about NGOs as US "force multipliers" avant la lettre: human rights and medical services for US friends and clients, none for the opposition.

Then everything is fair in love & war

What is the legality of these wars anyways?

By their irresponsible actions the latest being the kidnapping of the christian missionaries and by propagating a wildly radical form of Islam the Taliban and its supporters are defaming the noble image of Islam.  

All muslims need to stand up and condemn the heinous deeds committed by taliban and its supporters in the name of Islam.

By their irresponsible actions the latest being the kidnapping of the christian missionaries and by propagating a wildly radical form of Islam the Taliban and its supporters are defaming the noble image of Islam.  

Sign*Reader
Senior Member

Paa jee, please, don't. I can clearly hear your mind in gear, at my Morshed, again.

Please, remember my gramophone needle post? Seems you didn't read it. It's a bit stuck in the same track. Look, I plead for him, for anything's sake, pleeze, don't get at him.

He has a big image problem, living in the US, we just have to say such things, at times. He is so innocent. I promise, my mushedos is absolutely innocent, he doesn't even know that the Afganos are fighting a war of freedom and anyone seen as part of the US apparatus becomes a target.

Please, also look at my morshed's absolute innocence to any matters of freedom. Sir (look, I have even Knighted you!) he comes from a very long line of very decent folks, with a long tradition of being more loyal than the Dip Tea klector himself. I know, it's more loyal than the monarch, but his folks didn't have any such access so they just had to do with all their loyalty to the Dip Tea Klector.

Please, will you condone this act of absolute innocence?

All muslims need to stand up and condemn the heinous deeds committed by taliban and its supporters in the name of Islam.

Murshedo, I love you, but would you, please, list some of these deeds other than those you harvested from the US media?

Plus, have you ever been through an invasion or anywhere close to it? Sir, it's an outright war brought on my people by your government, just for the sake of the flag you swear allegiance to each morning, at school before starting lessons.

You will do the US great service if you worked for getting your forces (paid for by your tax dollars) out - before they all turn into hard drug junkies, courtesy of legendary Pathaan hospitality. I won't even mention the other Pathan things you young men are now experiencing.

I have submitted it once before that the Pathaan has no tradition of dancing to the tunes of some Dip Tea klectors and other invaders. He knows only how to fight for his freedom.

So, please, invest your breath in saving your boys and also your tax dollars. The Afghan and the Iraqi will bankrupt the US - instead of shouting all such abuses at us.

The Taliban are misguided religious zealots with a very narrow minded concept of Islam .

Talking about Afghanistan which is already a failed state mired in internal strife  lets not forget the fratricidal internal warfare after 1992 between the northern alliance and  the taliban.

Forget about fighting the external forces ,the ethnically divided afghans have been fighting among themselves since years.

Blaming united states or the western powers for their own internal failures and divisions is  wrong and detrimental for the progress of afghanistan.

Personal accountability , unity and tolerance is the need of the day for the afghans in order to prosper.

These nuts go into the war zone to make children sing about jesus while bombs are flying, and then show up on cams pleading for their lives.

you cant put your arm in Lions mouth and expect it to come out in one piece.

They dont deserve kidnapping, but its their own fault

Thank goodness, Community didn't succeed in getting you into some army. You would make a good journalist, ak_m_f

I know, it�s exceptionally sad. But, it just lies somewhere terribly deep in our psyche, no wonder we are not known for our good accountants or as some corner shop owners!

Afghanistan's present-day ethnic mix includes roughly  some 8 million Pushtuns; 5.6 million Tajiks; 1.5 million Hazarahs; 1.5 million Uzbeks; 60,000 Parsiwans; 125,000 Turkmens; and 200,000 Baluchis. Several thousand Kyrgyzes, Arabs, and other ethnic groups also make Afghanistan their home.

Afghanistan is primarily a country of nomads. There are two major tribal confederations in the south. Both Pushtun: the Durrani and the Ghilzai. Both confederations seek to rule the Loya Jirgah or the Afghan Assembly. In the past the Durranis have provided leadership. Increasingly, however, the Ghilzai are asserting themselves, as are the over 100 lesser tribal chiefs.

Similarly, the country is divided among regional warlords. These regions include Herat, Mazar-i Sharif, the Panjsher Valley, Kabul, Hazarajat, and Qandahar.

There has always been violence and bloodshed among all these volatile mixture of groups mentioned above.

The afghans need to start activating their neurons,put on their thinking caps reject violence and destructive ideologies like those of the taliban and work hand in hand with the world including the west  to stop their country from going further  into Oblivion .    

syed123
Morshed

I deeply admire your genius, how could anyone, in our whole world, other than just yourself, ever have such rare facts up his or her sleeve? You can beat Google, hands down.

Such unique research would have required some of your most precious years, in the country of those silly Afghans who have stained your such noble and civilised flag with their dirty blood?

If not that, I am certain, you must have, at least, lurked somewhere around the Durrand line or across the Amu Darya, at the other end? It couldn't be the Meshed-Herat crossing, that has been a bit dodgy for such wanderings and the Eastern corners are just impassable.

I know exactly what you mean, these blighters are utterly useless. Half of them can't even spell prosperity. The other half (not their other halves, just the other half of them!) simply laugh at the very word and start with funny tales from Rumi, Hafiz or that Shirazi chap, with his far better known  donkey!

I was sent to a college, in Lahore, promise, for no fault of mine, but my mother had seriously thought that I could be educated! Here I am, as a living proof of the fact that all dreams don't have to come true.

At this place, I made friends, with such fine men, each with his own Prosperity Street map and a timetable. I admired them. I still admire them. I admire all men of great wisdom like you.

I couldn't become them. Many reasons, some cultural and the others, perhaps, for centuries of genetic engineering. Over the years, I realised that in that silly tribal culture, we lacked was a prosperity based role model, like some Dip Tea Klektor who was the ultimate role model of all my friends - or, some other based on a similar design.  

Our role models are simply silly. And, almost all of these live with us, they love us, the live for us and at times also die for us. And, the ultimate role model is, always, a dead man; Shaheed so n so or such n such Shaheed.

As a social psychologist (though, always and ever a mere peasant horse breeder) I have failed to find a recipe for cooking all the global cultures into some one single flavour Biriyani. I believe that the State Department have also reached a similar conclusion.

So, Morshed, please mail us your recipe for a Global Masala.

And, also please deal with all those points lying at your table before your next fresh sermon.

Mr Whisper,Islam allows its followers not only to prepare for the eternal future but also to live with comfort and dignity in this world.

Misguided religious fanatics like the Taliban  by their total rejection of modern science and technology(except for stinger missiles and AK-47s) and their horrific  actions of destroying schools,treating females worse than slaves are not only going against the dictates of islam but also causing greater damage to it by their barbaric actions.

Its not a question of global culturism on the contrary its the religious duty of every sane human being in general and muslims in particular to stand up  against twisted regimes and ideologies whether its the Pol-Pot regime in Cambodia,Nazis in germany,        &nbs p;    Radical Zionism,Communistic Stalinism,Idi Aminism in Uganda Or Talibanism in Afghanistan.

Mr Whisper, Islam allows its followers not only to prepare for the eternal future but also to live with comfort and dignity in this world.

I am, again, honoured by your generosity to Mister me.

I am also grateful for this great pearl of wisdom, I promise, I would never have discovered it without your guidance. Now, you know why I always attend your sermons so obediently.

Misguided religious fanatics like the Taliban by their total rejection of modern science and technology

Thanks, I would never have known that just Science n Technology were the only most desirable tenets of Islam?

and their horrific actions of destroying schools, treating females worse than slaves are not only going against the dictates of islam but also causing greater damage to it by their barbaric actions.

Please mail me its Psy-ops sheet reference and I will photocopy and circulate it, at the Manchester mosque, this coming Friday.

Let�s make it a just bit more plain for you.

Do you take anything and everything the State Department puts out as some gospel truth? Or, do you really know anything about Afghanistan if not about the Afghans?

Do you know that decades of civil wars often bring in the likes of Talibaans? Or, are you just blank about the basic chemistry of the socio-cultural-political processes?

They did quite a fine job, for those times. But, our great Neo-Con friends were in a bit of a hurry to activate their New American Century project.

And, they seem to have done some great job, both, in Afghanistan and Iraq.

Its not a question of global culturism on the contrary its the religious duty of every sane human being in general and muslims in particular to stand up against twisted regimes and ideologies whether its the Pol-Pot regime in Cambodia, Nazis in germany, Radical Zionism, Communistic Stalinism, Idi Aminism in Uganda Or Talibanism in Afghanistan.

I have no idea which one should I ask you first:

What do you know of Talibaans or what you call Talibaanism?

Good bro Whisper good going but remember onething that you are trying to break your head against a rock.Never forget that 

Mr Whisper,Islam allows its followers not only to prepare for the eternal future but also to live with comfort and dignity in this world.

what sorts of comforts r u talking abt.the comforts vich r prominent features of western culture?

Misguided religious fanatics like the Taliban  

well most guided brother can u send only one post without using words like rightwing fanatics,extremists and misguided ppl.surly cant i know that.

total rejection of modern science and technology(except for stinger missiles and AK-47s) and their horrific  actions of destroying schools,treating females worse than slaves

"you are watching CNN news",and u are listening our correspondent(who is truly guided) live from afghanistan.

 its the religious duty of every sane human

well who else can achieve the title of sane except one bro of us.so bro u have to perform this duty solely

 being in general and muslims in particular to stand up  against twisted regimes and ideologies

now who 'll decide that whts r twisted ideologies and whts are not?wud u allow someone else to decide that or u wud like to do it too soley?when innocent muslims will stand up for anti social activities and elements then some hypocrites will call them as fanatics,extremists or misguided.so just forget to stand up and just lead ur life by accepting each everything either it is illusive or not?as it is a huge demand of 2day 's so called dignity.

 whether its the Pol-Pot regime in Cambodia,Nazis in germany,        & ;nbs p;    Radical Zionism,Communistic Stalinism,Idi Aminism in Uganda Or Talibanism in Afghanistan.

well bro wud u like to throw some light on dictatorships existing in many counteries and its advantages and friutfulness?

Good bro Whisper good going but remember one thing that you are trying to break your head against a rock. Never forget that 

Sister, thanks a million, but why would anyone break any heads against a block? I have been dealing with half-baked professors, almost, all my life and have ever enjoyed their inabilities to grasp the bare simple realities of Life.

Just enjoy the great and punch line;

but also to live with comfort and dignity in this world

With what comfort? Like the one that the Palestinians, the Kashmiris, the Iraqis and the Afghans are enjoying? 

And, with some great dignity of dancing to every tune of our Masters?

Hamsheer'eh, just enjoy the great jokes. Some of us are just a bit more prone to dancing to the pharen gallery, specially, when we come of a long tradition of treating the Dip Tea Klektor and, all his lookalikes, as the ultimate of everything everything right and absolutely immaculates!

To Farwa Syeda and Whisper,

The happenings in the Islamic world and beyond may  not concern you in any way But for me they do because i feel the pain and not only try to relate to the sufferings and tragedies befalling the common muslim on the street but also analyse them  and think of workable solutions.

Today the Ummah  doesnt need sarcasm and ridicule instead it desperately needs individuals who can analyse,think out of the box and work pragmatic solutions benefitting the community.

syed123 wrote: To Farwa Syeda and Whisper, The happenings in the Islamic world and beyond may  not concern you in any way But for me they do because i feel the pain and not only try to relate to the sufferings and tragedies befalling the common muslim on the street but also analyse them  and think of workable solutions. Today the Ummah  doesnt need sarcasm and ridicule instead it desperately needs individuals who can analyse,think out of the box and work pragmatic solutions benefitting the community.

well bro syed123 another self conceited statement now brother i m 100% sure that you can not change as it seems it has become ur nature and u know "nature can not change".

           do u know brother whts your problem?you think of urself absolute and thats not acceptable way for discussion or debate.in discussion or debate you can only put forward your opinion but can not say i am the right one,most guided one,moderate one,very concerned member of ummat-e- Mohammadi.................and all others are absurds and st**ids.thats not good approach and unfortunately u r having such approach.

         brothe r analyst u r talking abt analysis then plz just reread ur posts and see wht u r trying to convey to your fellow members.

Have a look at this,

The happenings in the Islamic world and beyond may  not concern you in any way But for me they do because i feel the pain

Farwa Syeda, You have every right to have extreme right wing opinions

but thanks to allah people like you are very few and far in between with no support among the common folks who just want to lead normal peaceful lives as good muslims.

Narrow minded secretarian individuals like you who blindly hate the west

some of the contributors here are just sounding like immature teenagers

The remark about the positioning of the flag and the holy kabah by some people  is a cheap shot being taken at me and exposes the poverty of their intellect.

                                so brother analyst try to analyse ur self conceited way of discussion and try to realise something.You pose really well to be an open minded but sorry to say reality is  far different.Thats the way to discuss something in intellectual way in america bro?

Hamsheer'eh, just enjoy the great jokes.

ya thats wht i m doing incessantly since last for weeks

And, with some great dignity of dancing to every tune of our Masters?

and wht abt gr8 madonna the queen of america?

Sorry to interrupt your fun guys, but the topic began with the fate of the hostages in Afghanistan, and whether that fate (as AK_MF seems to suggest ) is in their hands only, or whether the world community has a right to ask for their release, especially given the Afghan Code. My purpose, and Maryah's, was to give ICForum memebers the right to decide.   I'm not a moderator, nor would I ever want to be (though thinking about it: a non-Islamic moderator isn't such a bad idea.  I vote for Colin) but within your tit-for-tatting, perhaps you are allowing time to pass within which innocent people are chosen for death.

Can't you at least stick to the point?

The Quote about" Madonna" by Farwa Syeda and also the tendency by Whisper and his cheerleaders to silence and ridicule any form of dissenting opinion only exposes the lack of seriousness ,cavaliar approach and mindset of these people  with respect to  burning topics concerning the entire Ummah.

syed123 wrote: The Quote about" Madonna" by Farwa Syeda and also the tendency by Whisper and his cheerleaders to silence and ridicule any form of dissenting opinion only exposes the lack of seriousness ,cavaliar approach and mindset of these people  with respect to  burning topics concerning the entire Ummah.

thanx for ur all sorts of titles bro syed123 and i m appericiating u very much as i know u confered all these according to ur best and truely possessing abilities.

          anyways i m really convinced abt ur capablities and i think with such an intellectual mind set u r going to approach shair-e-mashriq and gr8 thinker Allama Iqbal and i m hoping soon the world will know abt the gr888888888888 thinker of this age "shair-e-maghrib" bro  syed123,the one who is having so much pain in his heart for muslim ummah that the killing of 5000 ppl from this ummah is not a big thing for him,this gr8 thinker also think that the ppl who r dying in afghanistan,kashmir,palastine,bosnia,urdan and iraq they r dying bcoz of  their own faults and follies not bcoz of greedy america.

. . . and also the tendency by Whisper and his cheerleaders to silence and ridicule any form of dissenting opinion

Please, let me assure you, we love opinion and we respect dissenting opinion. We are just people, not some dictators who profit by silencing dissenting opinion.

Thus far, you have simply addressed us from some pulpit, with some regular Psy-Ops and State Department recipes for the burning topics concerning the entire Ummah.

Please, tell us, how to control our laughter when you post some totally unrelated Googled info on Afghanistan, instead of dealing with a whole list of factual Afghan affairs?

Let's leave Afghanistan aside.

you seem to have no real knowledge even of your own country, of her people, of their aspirations, of their anger at thousands of people being disappeared and murdered by what was supposed to be their own army, sometimes, when, perhaps never!

Sir, till you laugh at the bloodshed, of any people, anywhere in this poor and so badly bloodstained world, you grant me the RIGHT to laugh at you.

My friend, when you ridicule murder, under whatever excuses, YOU grant me the right to ridicule YOU.

Sir, when anyone, not just you, begins to prescribe just the one syrup for all of our world's ailments, we will always shout a quack!

To Farwa Syeda and Whisper,

The happenings in the Islamic world and beyond may not concern you in any way 

Morshed-in-Chief, please, educate us, is it some piece of great poetry? or just a mere assumption?

But for me they do because i feel the pain

An exceptionally noble sentiment!

and not only try to relate to the sufferings and tragedies befalling the common muslim on the street

Even a nobler cause, but what does any half baked diagnosis ever do to a patient? Ever heard of the legendary Neem Hakeem?

analyse them and think of workable solutions?

The solutions you offer have already been worked out and are detailed in all those CIA Handbooks. Why not offer us something fresh, something original? 

Today the Ummah doesnt need sarcasm and ridicule

Please, convince us why should we not hold sarcasm and ridicule for any and all murderous generals and their Washington backers?

it desperately needs individuals who can analyse, think out of the box and work pragmatic solutions benefitting the community.

Wny do we need any more individuals?

when you alone are enough for the whole kaynaat (the universe) to analyse, think out of the box and work pragmatic solutions?

And, if at all we needed some reinforcements, we could simply import people. I believe the Brookings Institute and the American Enterprise do have some brilliant readymade heads, for solving all our world�s problems, with the same very scripts you are trying to push down our throats.

Time and again i have always voiced my humble opinions without being influenced by any entity or person.

Any information i  present in this forum has been  posted by me after careful authentication of its veracity.

While not absolving the West of its faults and prejudices at the same time the postings by  people like Whisper  and Farwa Syeda show a almost blind hatred of anyting Western or American which puts them in the same boat as the so called Neo-Cons.

One of the very significant reason  for the lack of any significant scientific advances by Islamic countries is the same kind of intolerance , prejudices and blind rejection of anything thats western as exhibited by some select individuals in this forum but on a much more macro level.

bro syed do u know wht is ur problem?u r among the ppl have no opinion of their own,they simply follow suit as bro whisper,me and also some other members of this forum mentioned so many times in their posts.now u r also wanting such st**id kind of approach frm us thats not possible.

             i dont know bro y is dat but at one side u r posing like an intellect and good analyst and on other side ur capability of understanding others view point is absolutly nil.nobody said here we hate west but v said v r not in the favours of americans's intenntions which is like an open secret.we r against the bloodshedding which the america is doing all over the world for its interests.we are against illegal occupation and for illegal occupation america is well known all over the world.we r against inhuman acts in which american army is indulge in different muslim counteries.we are against the plundering of muslim country and making own country progresssive and establish.we are against propagation of degraded and obscene culture of west.so after such bashful acts u r expecting love for america so bro syed very concerned member of ummah u can do so we cant.

ya we know bro you have very much authentic sources .......... like................amm.......... oh ya ... prejudiced us media etc etc , now v ll also INSHALLAH try to approach such so much authentic sources..this time sorry next time we ll talk in western media(apparently western but infact in the hands of jews) tone.....

                        my most innocent bro on this whole universe ya you are right in few last couple of years we were really prejudicid one and constantly refusing splendour life style of westerners but you must be happy by knowing that now in last 7 years pakistani(since mushraff took the control of pakistan) are becoming less prejudice and more moderate and enlightend as now  by giving up our traditional islamic civilisation although there are still some foolish ppl who are not ready to give up islam and its rules but you dont worry and hope for the best ...... (as u know UMEED PE DUNIYA QAEM HE )

      "congratullation for this achievment of jews n christians from thea core of my heart."

While not absolving the West of its faults and prejudices at the same time the postings by people like Whisper and Farwa Syeda show a almost blind hatred of anyting Western or American which puts them in the same boat as the so called Neo-Cons.

A great friend of mine, though I have never met good old Oscar Wilde, once said: �An idea can be a very dangerous thing, if it�s the only one we have�

Had I been in the same party room, I would have added: �It grows to be the most dangerous thing, when we begin to feel that we are the only ones with an idea�

You would have found an entirely a different audience, here, only if you had a wee more than just the one idea you ssem to have captured from somewhere. Our reaction to you would have been different only if our ears wer not, already, blasted  every single day of the week, by the US media + their loudspeakers and sub-hooters.

Hatred of the west?

You have such a lucky President, I didn't know so many people were still there, in his choire, chanting: �Why do they hate us?� "oh ho ho, why"

I am neither infatuated by the west nor find any joy in hating the poor things. I have grown indifferent to it and also it's recent plight.

One of the very significant reason for the lack of any significant scientific advances by Islamic countries is the same kind of intolerance, prejudices and blind rejection of anything thats western

Is scientific advances the be all and end all of Life? Or, do some people have certain other considerations. Is it at all possible that some cultures have different patterns?

Whisper wrote: Sir, when anyone, not just you, begins to prescribe just the one syrup for all of our world's ailments, we will always shout a quack! It�s not just about you.

And yet so many of you seem to think that getting rid of America would solve all the Muslim problems so make sure you put out a extra quack for yourselves.

And yet so many of you seem to think that getting rid of America would solve all the Muslim problems so make sure you put out a extra quack for yourselves

OPS, my coment was addressed out reident Quack and it's no way related to geting rid of America at all.

Whisper wrote: And yet so many of you seem to think that getting rid of America would solve all the Muslim problems so make sure you put out a extra quack for yourselves OPS, my coment was addressed out reident Quack and it's no way related to geting rid of America at all.

I understand but it seems that so many believe if the western countries were not around it would solve all problems for muslims so isn't it about the same thing?

ak_m_f wrote: Farwa_Syeda wrote:       "congratullation for this achievment of jews n christians from thea core of my heart." Always the jews & christains. Then people complain why do they hate us?... well maybe because we are racist?

               i think those blind and deaf and dumb ppl dont know whts happening in palastine,kashmir,afghanistan,bosnia and iraq?and another things their animosity with islam and muslims is not new.its quite old now.dont u remember wht they did with our prophet(SAW),a person who was mercy to humankind who was truely peaceful not so called peacful and unfanatic like many broz of us here at this forum.well how can u know as nobody told u abt all this and u urself dont wanna know anything abt islam.

           acc to reports "if we find out rate of books written against islam,muslims and our beloved prophet(SAW) then we 'll know 1.5 books were written against islam per day"

           who are the ppl who r backing and providing security and respectable titles to cursed and mutineers like sulman rushdi,asra nomani,aslam gora,tasleeema nasreen.who hired cursed and greedy man mirza ghulaam qadyaani for misleading innocent ppl?

          when Quran said this "yahood-o-nasaara can not be friend of us they are friend of each other","AL KUFR O MILLAT UN WAHID".after this the person who 'll accept something good from these yahood-o-nasaaraz will be inane,absurd and mad.

Allah Says in Quran,

"To whom i show the rite path nobody can mislead him and to whom i lead astray nobody can give hidayat to such person"

                so bro ak_f it is matter of luck.some ppl are having "hidayat" in their destiny and some are having "gumraahi"

                     just onething may Allah(SWT)give hidayat to everyone of us as we are not perfect one there4 asking for forgiveness to Almighty and for His merci as He is most merciful and give also hidayat to the ppl who are anti social and causing harm to islam in muslims clothing who r infact munafqeen and if they dont deserve for hidayat then may Allah(SWT)destroy them and show them the hell for which He promised many times in his book to munafqeen and kufaars and provide them company of Iblees,Phairoh,Abu jehal,sulman rushdi,tasleema nasreen and Namrood.Aameen

To Farwa Syeda,

Jews and christians are  people of the book and our brothers   and its totally wrong to generalise against them  based on their religion.

People like you are the reason why people like taslima nasreen and salman rushdie become famous and  come into prominence.

The best way to deal with people like  them is to ignore them or engage them intellectually instead of passing Fatwas and threatining them with violence.

syed123 wrote: To Farwa Syeda, Jews and christians are  people of the book and our brothers   and its totally wrong to generalise against them  based on their religion. People like you are the reason why people like taslima nasreen and salman rushdie become famous and  come into prominence. The best way to deal with people like  them is to ignore them or engage them intellectually instead of passing Fatwas and threatining them with violence.

Ditto!

Here's a story about mass graves in Afghanistan and the US army cover-up. Why are we not as concerned over this as we are about the Korean hostages? Where are the petitions of protest? Where is the outcry?

�During the first week of December 03, US corporate media reported that American forensic teams are working to document some 41 mass graves in Iraq to support future war crime tribunals in that country. Broadly covered in the media, as well, was the conviction of General Stanislav Galic by a UN tribunal for war crimes committed by Bosnian Serb troops under his command during the siege of Sarajevo in 1992-94.

�These stories show how corporate media likes to give the impression that the US government is working diligently to root out evil doers around the world and to build democracy and freedom. This theme is part of a core ideological message in support of our recent wars on Panama, Serbia, Afghanistan and Iraq. Governmental spin transmitted by a willing US media establishes simplistic mythologies of good vs. evil often leaving out historical context, special transnational corporate interests, and prior strategic relationships with the dreaded evil ones.

�The hypocrisy of US policy and corporate media complicity is evident in the coverage of Donald Rumsfeld�s stop over in Mazar-e Sharif Afghanistan December 4 to meet with regional warlord and mass killer General Abdul Rashid Dostum and his rival General Ustad Atta Mohammed. Rumsfeld was there to finalize a deal with the warlords to begin the decommissioning of their military forces in exchange for millions of dollars in international aid and increased power in the central Afghan government.

�Few people in the US know that General Abdul Rashid Dostum fought alongside the Russians in the 1980s, commanding a 20,000-man army. He switched sides in 1992 and joined the Mujahidin when they took power in Kabul. For over a decade, Dostum was a regional warlord in charge of six northern provinces, which he ran like a private fiefdom, making millions, by collecting taxes on regional trade and international drug sales. Forced into exile in Turkey by the Taliban in 1998, he came back into power as a military proxy of the US during the invasion of Afghanistan.

�Charged with mass murder of prisoners of war in the mid-90s by the UN, Dostum is known to use torture and assassinations to retain power. Described by the Chicago Sun Times (10/21/01) as a �cruel and cunning warlord,� he is reported to use tanks to rip apart political opponents or crush them to death. Dostum, a seventh grade dropout, likes to put up huge pictures of himself in the regions he controls, drinks Johnnie Walker Blue Label, and rides in an armor-plated black Cadillac.

�A documentary entitled Massacre at Mazar released in 2002 by Scottish film producer, Jamie Doran, exposes how Dostum, in cooperation with U.S. special forces, was responsible for the torturing and deaths of approximately 3,000 Taliban prisoners-of-war in November of 2001. In Doran�s documentary, two witnesses report on camera how they were forced to drive into the desert with hundreds of Taliban prisoners held in sealed cargo containers. Most of the prisoners suffocated to death in the vans and Dostum�s soldiers shot the few prisoners left alive. One witness told the London Guardian that a US Special Forces vehicle was parked at the scene as bulldozers buried the dead. A soldier told Doran that U.S. troops masterminded a cover-up. He said the Americans ordered Dostum�s people to get rid of the bodies before satellite pictures could be taken.�

http://www.projectcensored.org/newsflash/corporatemedia.html - http://www.projectcensored.org/newsflash/corporatemedia.html

ak_m_f   has made a very valid point with regards to the sufferings of a section of muslims due to emotions prevailing over logic and reason.

Also Zanjabil, nobody is perfect not  the US army or any army of the world.

The point is that the time of pointing fingers is long over.

Either we uphold the noble traditions of Islam ,take the moral high ground ,encourage intra and interfaith dialogue ,tread the path of peace and progress or be reduced to penury  and a life of misery due to our failure to curb the forces of intolerance,radicalism and extremism present within.

Also Zanjabil, nobody is perfect not the US army or any army of the world.

Zanjabil
Newbie

You are the luckiest woman on earth!

God forbid, had anyone else mentioned anything like that, Morshed won't have even asked us to sit down, he would have simply charged with "you hate everything western" and "specially American" and ended the sermon there and then.

The point is that the time of pointing fingers is long over.

Shall we now all dance? When does the great fiesta begin? to celebrate the fact that the Alliance of the Billing has ceased to slaughter Muslims and peace has now dancing everywhere?

Either we uphold the noble traditions of Islam ,take the moral high ground ,encourage intra and interfaith dialogue ,tread the path of peace and progress or be reduced to penury and a life of misery due to our failure to curb the forces of intolerance, radicalism and extremism present within.

We love your sermons, Master, despite the fact that these come certified, by none other than your ownself!

May I ask you just a question and will you please answer it?

Are these the forces of intolerance, radicalism and extremism are merely present within?

These forces are something just home grown? cultured by the mere Axis of Evil? otherwise there is no rhym nor reason for their existence. 

Could you, please, also tell us: why would we pay more attention to you WHEN the State Department has been trying to push the same very sermon for years and with far better resources?

Take some moral High Ground and the Hyenas will eat grass?(Won't say tiger. Tiger is an exceptionally noble creature)

Syed123, my question was: the US army aided a war criminal in the cover-up of thousands of murders. Where is our international moral outrage?

Your answer? "Nobody is perfect." Kindly explain your meaning.

encourage intra and interfaith dialogue

There has been no such thing going before you suddenly dreamt about it?

Zapatero, the Spanish Prime Minister initiated the Alliance of Civilisations, ages ago for not just dialogue, but other activities also.

I know the US media is mumb about it, for the obvious reason; Spain is now a part of the Axis of Evil, since they withdrew their forces from the Iraq disaster.

The Great Morshed Questions Time!

1. Are you trying to tell us that the Muslims around the world have not had any effort at any such dialogue?

2. Or, by dialogue, you mean; we should all stand up and accept total and entire responsibilty for whatever has ever gone wrong in this world?

3. Or are you just so infatuated with the American dream that you fail (or, just refuse) to see who has NOT been KEEN on any dialogue - of other than the 52,000 feet from the air kind?

Please just answer these simple questions in plain simple words. No more sermons please.

Syed123, my question was: the US army aided a war criminal in the cover-up of thousands of murders. Where is our international moral outrage?

Zanjabil, please, be fair, when we swear total allegiance to the US media and come to accept it as some article of our faith, do we leave any gaps for things like international moral outrage or for even some mere balance?

I could be wrong. It's August and it might have gone on vacation?

Whatever you do, please, don't pay any attention to all these others, on this Forum, who think that my innocent Morshed is, in fact, working for Karen Hughe's "Dump All Our Misdeeds on the Mozlims" department.

Thank you for all the interesting questions.Let me get to Whisper first.

The Forces of intolerance, radicalism and extremism are every where and not merely within ,but some one  needs to take the moral high ground  .I believe muslims stand to gain morally,materially and faithwise by taking the initiative and confronting and isolating  the forces of ignorance  listed above.

Muslims on the whole do not have a unified voice or leadership and as such have been ineffective in communicating with the West on important issues of peace,security and tolerance.

The West only gets to hear what the Neo-Cons would like them to hear.

This issue needs our urgent attention and this is where Inter-faith and intra faith dialogues are crucial in building bridges .

I have never stated that all the problems of this universe are our fault alone.

But the fact remains that certain events committed by fringe elements within like the  suicide bombings,9/11,train bombings of spain,the Bali bombings,London bombings,the various conflicts in places like southern thailand,somalia,chechnya,kashmir,afghanistan,iraq, Phillipines etc have all increased the focus on Muslims throughout the world.

Muslims now are on the defensive all over the world and being wrongly portrayed as a extremist   religion bent on establishing their hegemony through violence.

This falsehood needs to be countered and the misunderstandings cleared not for any body's benefit but for the benefit of the majority peace loving muslims like us because otherwise genuine movements like the one in Chechnya are being painted with the same brush of terrorism.

There is a serious lack of communication and misunderstandings  between the common man in the west and the ordinary muslim on the street.          ; ;           ; ;           ; ;      Earlier this gap had a chance of being bridged through the power of Dawah but thanks to the lunatic  extremist fringe elements  within ,,Dawah has taken a backseat presently due to increased mistrust and preformed notions about Islam in general and Muslims in particular.

With respect to the question posed by Zanjabil,Firstly Unlike most of the middle eastern monarchies  where people pretty much do not have a voice,America being a functioning democracy ,every action is closely scrutinised and answers demanded under the public eye.

Like any sovereign country america has to protect its national interests and an incident like 9/11 was a direct attack on its national interest and groups like the taliban encouraging such attacks had to be held accountable.

People like Dostum were able to go scot free and international censure of america was muted because the common opposing force was the taliban which  by its extremist and intolerant actions has portrayed itself as an evil and dangerous group in the West.

Extreme groups like the taliban which do not  believe or advocate tolerance and eschew any form of accountability for their actions should also be ready to face consequences for their extremist policies.

am I correct?

absolutly not.very biased and prejudiced approach 2wards muslims.

Muslims loose because they are emotional not logical.

muslims r constantly losing bcoz they are having munafqeen under thier umbrella who r more interested in dollars rather than interests of ummah but onething they(munafqeen) know very well how to play with words.

ak_m_f   has made a very valid point with regards to the sufferings of a section of muslims due to emotions prevailing over logic and reason.

yeah he made a valid point as he happens to be among very rare ppl who r most guided(in the sight of bro syed123) after bro syed 123 as nobody can take place of bro syed123 in this world in terms of guidence and peace loving instincts.but he quoted absolutly ronge examples.and tried to show his jaundiced approach 2wards muslims,the muslims who r suffering bcoz of so called peaceloving,civilised but more greedy for muslims 's money and true enemy of islam.

    well bro akm_f wht u think abt MOSSAD,RAW ans CIA? 

Jews and christians are  people of the book and our brothers   and its totally wrong to generalise against them  based on their religion.

well that is something i already know so dont bother to tell.i know the ppl who disgraced Prophet(SAW)almost one years b4 they are brothers of u and the ppl who are muslims they are enemies of u and u think they r fanatic,extremists fanatic etc.wht a typical american approach?

People like you are the reason why people like taslima nasreen and salman rushdie become famous and  come into prominence.

ppl like u are the reason bcoz of whom muslims r compelled to adopt defencive approach that is something i really hate.y v shud be defensive, muslims did nothing like media is potraying.there isnt any sigle country or region which is illegally occupied by muslims but there r many examples of illegally occupation of non muslims(ur brothers) on muslims territories either it is kashmir or iraq or afghanistan or palastine or bosnia.

        there isnt any single proof that talibaan or so called existing Alqaida attacked on america but it is proved bush attacked on muslim counteries and he is biggest terrorist and it is  peroven wht ur bros(israelis)r doing with innocent palastanians specially with women and children.

          this time i can say that the ppl who r new muslims(not by birth)they are better than u ppl as they dont have complexes(extremisim,fanaticism,intolerence) like u and they r proving very good muslims than such muslims and proving as strength of islam.

Today, though Islam happens to be the fastest growing religion in the world, it also happens to be the religion about which people have maximum number of misconceptions. This is largely because of the virulent propaganda by the media about Islam.

A Christian surveyor, Professor Edward reported in the Time Magazine of April 16, 1979 that in a span of 150 years, from 1800 CE to 1950 CE �over 60,000 books have been written against Islam by the Christian West.�  Now, it is questionable, who has initiated, nurtured and collected the hatred which you have referred to, the Muslims or the Christian West?

Many are surprised that despite such propaganda being made against Islam, it still happens to be the fastest growing religion in today�s times. It is so, on the merits of its superior and noble teachings. Says Allah swt in the Glorious Qur'an:

�They (the non-Muslim enemies and critics of Islam) plot and plan, and Allah too plans; but the best of planners is Allah�.

(Al-Qur'an 8:30)

You have said the Muslims not to attack non-Muslims; I request you to direct your advice to those authorities, who only claim to be �peaceful, peace-loving people� and �peace-keepers of the world�, but ironically have attacked thousands of innocent Muslims under the theme �War on terror�. The noted writer Arundhati Roy states: "So now we know. Pigs are horses. Girls are boys. War is Peace."

A number of skeptics have made comments about Prophet Muhammad (pbuh). Skeptics allege(bro syed 's brothers as they r ppl of books) that Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) was �a violent man, a man of war�. Some further state that "Jesus set the example for love, as did Moses � Muhammad set an opposite example� (remember Jerry Falwell?). These skeptics somehow fail to realize that far from being a man of war, ��he (Muhammad) must be called the saviour of humanity�, as described thus by George Bernard Shaw.

• ak_m_f wrote: exactly. No one gave a damn about salman rushdie, but then Iran passed a death fatwa on him, suddenly he became famous & was knighted. He was seen as a guy who stood up in the face of mullah.

  Oh really! the facts give a different picture:

  You weren�t even conceived when he was brought on the scene with his book "Midnight Children� by his Jewish publishing house. These Jews could be your brothers may be! but not every knowledgeable Muslim's.  They found a  scum of Muslim name and background who was ready and willing to sell his soul for acceptance in the west for doing the ultimate disparagement of  Muslims & Muhammad (P).

• Can you ask him why is he hangin on to the Muslim name?
  

   

   When the Brits gave him Booker Prize in 1981 where were Iranian Mullahs then?  Where was the outrage then?   

  In another seven years time the bombshell was TSV, it took Khomeini four months to react after the publication while India had already banned it in the country!

  
  

  ak_m_f wrote: More logical approach would have been to publish a book that would have discussed issues described in "satanic verses".

• This is also called Monday morning quarterbacking! you know what I mean?
  

  This is so moronic and na�ve to state after two decades when  the icing of the cake has also come about in the knighthood of this mohajir from India! who is talking about revision of Quraan also!

  It seems you don�t have foggiest idea what TSV is all about!  You need to list the  debatable  issues in TSV! It is blasphemy in satire. How do you get even with a whore in this ish media?
   
  

• You weren�t around to know that something was not done to educate and inform  the people.
  

   It was never going to satisfy the western crassitude. I still have the booklets  Late Ahmed Deedat  brought from South Africa to his US tour on the subject.

  The general buyer of the book  wanted to know what dirt he could read against Muslims in general and the Prophet in particular even  though the American public was clueless about the terms and characters used which are Indian / Islamic in their origins and use. What Selman�s hang up did on a much larger scale, you and your other Mushite are doing on the smaller scale indicating identity crises but pleading for a compromise being the aliens in the adopted societies.
  Finally any Muslim expecting decency from the Nobel committee  chaired by Lord Rothschild should have his head examined; that settles the issue who called the shots anyways!

   The sixty four thousand dollar question is; would this Lord make people like you his brothers? See if you get past the doorman!
  
  

syed123 wrote: Like any sovereign country america has to protect its national interests and an incident like 9/11 was a direct attack on its national interest and groups like the taliban encouraging such attacks had to be held accountable.

You will remember, Syed123, that the Taliban offered to hand over Usamah bin Laden to the US authorities. All they requested was corroboratory evidence showing why he was a suspect in the 9/11 attrocities.

The moment the FBI present the Taliban with some modicum of evidence, I have no reason to suspect they will not keep their word.

But the reality is that Usamah bin Laden is not a suspect for 9/11. Due to the absence of evidence of his involvement. You can verify this courtesy of the FBI's own site:

No Hard Evidence Connecting Bin Laden to 9/11
Researched by Morgan Ulery

You will remember, Syed123, that the Taliban offered to hand over Usamah bin Laden to the US authorities. All they requested was corroboratory evidence showing why he was a suspect in the 9/11 attrocities.

Mullah Zaif the then Afghan Ambassador in Pakistan had made that offer, through Islamabad.

So, do I interpret your reply correctly, syed123? It is morally acceptable to murder thousands of prisoners and then to cover up the crime. Because it is all done in the name of a noble cause -- namely, the War on Islam. Does this accurately sum up your position, syed123?

Could I act as a co-asker of this question?

Jews and christians are  people of the book and our brothers   and its totally wrong to generalise against them  based on their religion.

but it is absolutly rite to call taliban and other muslims as terrorists without any proof and after watching propaganda channels like BBC and CNN and call them as fanatics just for few dollars.is it rite brother syed123?

my suggestion for u bro syed,so called concerned member of ummah is this 1st try to behave like brother with muslims(by not blaming them and by feeling their pain and miseries and by not thinking that blood of muslims is so cheap that anybody can kill them in the presence of their so many brothers)then try to win the so called nobel prize for peace and universal brotherhood by making ahl-e-kitaab(jews and christians),enemies of Allah(rejector of tauheed and our beloved Prophet)and his Rasool(SAW),for whom Allah said in Quran "they are even worst than animals",ur brothers.

To Sign*Reader,

I do not know which religion you belong to or what kind of upbringing you had  but still iam curious to know, why you are so narrow minded and hate Mohajirs passionately  inspite of them being muslims also???

To Farwa  syeda, all i can tell you is that Extreme opinions and ideologies aare causing muslims great harm and have no place in Islam.

Besides extremism by itself is a sign of immaturity and arrogance and a real muslim is neither.

Your opinions show that you have gone astray on the road of ignorance.

Its my sincere advice to you to try to learn more, read more,interact with people of all classes and religions before forming your opinions.

To Sign*Reader,

I do not know which religion you belong to or what kind of upbringing you had  but still iam curious to know, why you are so narrow minded and hate Mohajirs passionately inspite of them being muslims also???

I had asked to behave, I knew, this was coming. Now, just sit in that corner and silently listen to my Morshed's sermons and fall (or, even, rise) in love with his innocence.

What do you expect to be called, if not narrow minded and utterly badly brought up? when you disagree with anything he says.

In reply to the questions of Whisper and Zanjabil,

In a general sense it is absolutely not acceptable to murder any body and cover up the crime.

As i have stated before no army in the world  can claim to be saintly and in today's world and the present context  wars generally produce losers on both sides with no clear cut winners.

The biggest casualty of a war is the loss of human rights and individual freedoms.

Regarding Taliban, their basic principles and ideology is flawed simply because it aims to rule by trampling on the basic rights of individuals and curbing freedom of expression.

The united states holds a higher moral ground here due to the absolute freedom of expression and upholding of individual rights.

If any country including the United states doesnt bring the guilty to justice it would lose its moral authority and standing in the World arena.

I wonder what the Hazaras of the Northern alliance would say about the atrocities committed by the Taliban on their people and the brutal slaying of Ahmed shah Masood????

To Whisper,One simple Question ,

Do you agree with  people like Sign*Reader who by their attacks on Mohajirs etc   aim to divide the already hopelessly divided Ummah????

Zanjabil
Newbie

 I am only a co-asker, I leave it with you, if you manage to distill an answer from my Morshed's sermon, would you please mail it to me?

Its my sincere advice to you to try to learn more, read more,interact with people of all classes and religions before forming your opinions.

bro syed123

dont need any device from a neem mullah who is always a khatra-e-imaangot it?

Its my sincere advice to you to try to learn more, read more,interact with people of all classes and religions before forming your opinions.

bro syed123

dont need any advice from a neem mullah who is always a khatra-e-imaan got it?

Your opinions show that you have gone astray on the road of ignorance.

you plz keep on walking on the road of dictators,assasinators,so called champions of peace,animals and money(dollar)makers and................???best of luck for rest of journey

I won't say a thing to your Morshed, no matter what till I have the permission! Though my fingers are itching!

Luck you, only fingers itching! not lungs bursting with laughter.

I wonder why your Morshed is so naive and sanctimonious at the same time; may be these qualities come as one package.

How often have you seen me with a Morshed? Promise, he is as innocent as they come. Ustad ji, in all your years, here, how many others have you seen some who would post exact U S psyops lines and expect you to take these as gospel truth?

A gut feeling probably has not seen civil rights era and just acting too FOBish in his sermons!

That's not his fault, his vision is Starred n Striped, I have dealt with many such cases of serious Americanitis. I diagnosed it with his maiden sermon, it was an attempt, at performing what his admin had failed to do - load all these Muzlimz with the responsibility of all the world's wrongs.

We must forgive anyone who can post Palestine as a mere Refugee Problem!

Pehli peerhi ulum ghulm
teh doosri sheikhzadeh;
Aand gawandh murr gae teh nervair syedzadeh!

If I am not mistaken is it Mian Mohammed Shah's?

To Whisper,One simple Question ,

Do you agree with people like Sign*Reader who by their attacks on Mohajirs etc

Brother, I am in full sympathy with your point and also respect your sensitivity about this matter.

But, if you read Sign*Reader's message, just with a bit of care, you will find that he hasn't attacked anyone. He has just used an expression, which has gained currency, through these years of MQM mafiosi reign and specially since 12th May 2007.

aim to divide the already hopelessly divided Ummah???

Be honest, does anyone need to aim at dividing such already shreded Ummah?

Hi Syed (and welcome to the discussions, from me, a non-Muslim guest).

At this point, and though the wheels of justice can at times grind slowly, I consider that loss of moral authority largely a fait accompli.  At any rate, in this case and for once we cannot blame citizens of Germany for not trying to bring the potentially �guilty� to at least a show trial and to some form of perceived justice:

http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,1557842,00.html - http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,1557842,00.ht ml

Serv

A colony?  What�s that?  If you don�t mind, I prefer to be called a neo-trusteeship territory!

Let me get to Whisper first.

The Forces of intolerance, radicalism and extremism are everywhere and not merely within, but some one needs to take the moral high ground. I believe muslims stand to gain morally, materially and faithwise by taking the initiative and confronting and isolating the forces of ignorance listed above.

There is no denying that it is a problem.

But, its magnitude and the extent that you and the State Department are portraying is a bit of tired fiction.

Just take this The Forces of intolerance, radicalism and extremism phrase. Isn't it borrowed from some very familiar source?

Muslims on the whole do not have a unified voice or leadership and as such have been ineffective in communicating with the West on important issues of peace, security and tolerance.

True.

The West only gets to hear what the Neo-Cons would like them to hear.

Absolutely right.

This issue needs our urgent attention and this is where Inter-faith and intra faith dialogues are crucial in building bridges.

A noble suggestion, but a dialogue is something thats conducted, by tabling all the parties, it doesn't work if we shout all the blame on just the one group and, that too, in some Enlightened Moderation style. 

I have never stated that all the problems of this universe are our fault alone.

But, somehow your posts have cast that impression, more so, when you remain frozen about the root causes of this problem.

But the fact remains that certain events committed by fringe elements within like the suicide bombings, 9/11, train bombings of spain, the Bali bombings, London bombings, the various conflicts in places like southern thailand, somalia, chechnya, kashmir, afghanistan, iraq, Phillipines etc have all increased the focus on Muslims throughout the world.

The primary conflict of Palestine is missing in your list, but never mind. Where were these dark Forces of intolerance, radicalism and extremism before this present spate of invasions, before the New American Century project was launched?

Muslims now are on the defensive all over the world and being wrongly portrayed as a extremist religion bent on establishing their hegemony through violence.

Not all over the world, really, but just in the United States.

Our European and also British neighbours are, by now, simply tired of all such US pedled fables.

This falsehood needs to be countered and the misunderstandings cleared not for any body's benefit but for the benefit of the majority peace loving muslims like us because otherwise genuine movements like the one in Chechnya are being painted with the same brush of terrorism.

I couldn�t agree any less than 100% with your point.

There is a serious lack of communication and misunderstandings between the common man in the west and the ordinary muslim on the street. Earlier this gap had a chance of being bridged through the power of Dawah but thanks to the lunatic extremist fringe elements within ,,Dawah has taken a backseat presently due to increased mistrust and preformed notions about Islam in general and Muslims in particular.

This is your strongest point.

I understand and respect your points, but it would greatly help if we started by Building some Bridges, at the home front; between your posts and this Forum.

If I may make some suggestions just in good faith:

1.                    Try and reconsider your alarmist approach.

2.                    You will be more effective if you used a bit less of 

           the US media coined phrases.

3.                    Be kind, more people will listen to you if you talked with them instead of shouting some sermons at them.

Thank you for your suggestions Whisper.

My approach to issues affecting the Ummah is a manifestation of the continued frustration ,anxiety and concern at the mishandling  and misunderstanding of key issues by our clergy and leadership .

It is time  for a fresh new pragmatic  leadership  one which has the guts to  abandon the age old prejudices and issues and start with a progressive new outlook along with an agenda of peace, prosperity and co-operation  not only among the muslim masses themselves but also with the rest of the world.

Is this something too much to ask or expect?????

I am most gratified to see that this thread is still running.  Astonished in fact.  Yes, it has gone well off the topic I originally posted, but that is natural evolution.  And certainly many more recent posts have been on topics I know very little, if anything at all about.

But mostly, I have noticed lately that there is a spirit of cooperation, of stopping to listen to and consider the post which came before, rather less than the knee-jerk reactions I have come to expect from many.  Perhaps the cooler atmosphere is due to the timely visit of Servetus, almost always my favourite voice of reason.

Either way, if I didn't know better, I would swear that women were responsible for these last posts!   Cassie

Syed and Whisper both of you have raised some strong points that I very much agree. However, I don't know if any of you covered this, but, in order to have an effective dialogue with the emphasis of understanding the Muslim faith, religion, mind etc we must first battle what is internal. I have constantly said it repeatedly and unfortunately, not most of the Muslims online commented on which I call "psychology of victimhood."

I believe in order to be effective outward we must also be effective inward as well.I like Syed's point in that he states that Muslims do not have a unified voice. This is one reason why I particularly don't follow a Madhab. How can I follow a school of thought when the greater macrocosmic society does not even have one voice? Regardless whether our voices yell "we are not terrorist" this remains ineffective. I believe the examples must not just come from telling someone but actual examples.

I have constantly said it myself that it is quite easy to blame the U.S. (mind you there are other countries that contributed to Muslim oppression as well) which rightfully so however we continuously victimize ourselves which is also ineffective.

Point by Israfil well taken.

Also to Cassandra, i think the trend is changing ,nowadays its the men who are mostly the milder,cooler  and less stubborn.

However, I don't know if any of you covered this, but, in order to have an effective dialogue with the emphasis of understanding the Muslim faith, religion, mind etc we must first battle what is internal. I have constantly said it repeatedly and unfortunately, not most of the Muslims online commented on which I call "psychology of victimhood."

Yaar'em, you have been with us for almost as long as I have been here. Have you once seen me waving any flags? Or, even, claim to be a Muslim at any point?

Brother, I am a secularist. I love my Cardhu with a cigar in the Mediterranean sunset. I was raised by a man who was a Founder Member of the Communist Party of Great Britain.

We both grew to rate Islam and its system as the best for mankind. I stand for nothing other than universal justice, the person's faith or orientation doesn't concern me, even for a mere breath.

The Psychology of Victimhood does apply well in personal matters and, if I am correct, this term gained currency since of those David Whatshisname? self-help books and tapes that most of my friends used to listen, on their way to their workplaces.

The matters of global injustice hold different dynamics and in such situations, the search for justice requires external struggles, backed by active support, not just some philosophical introspection. 

I have constantly said it myself that it is quite easy to blame the U.S.

Brother, we are here, discussing present atrocities, specially, in this thread. We are not holding some symposium on the Global History of Mankinds Tortures in various ages. The U S plays a handsome part in almost all the globe's tragedies of our here and now.

But, if you insist, I would start taking all the 172,000 Tuvalu Islanders to task for all the blood shed in our world in the past few years? Like, if you had ever noticed, I had done for a few weeks last year.

Justice requires us, just at times, to rise above our flag infatuations.

Is this something too much to ask or expect?????

We can achieve anything in our lives, specially, in this electronic age, but justice refuses to hug us when we fail to take all her violaters to task.

My friend, even otherwise we need a balanced approach for solving any problem and, at times, we have to rise above our flags just for the sake of Justice.

Either way, if I didn't know better, I would swear that women were responsible for these last posts!

For a whole moment you had me thinking as if one of us, from the limited abilities gender, had actually posted something resembling like our women's (won't mention any names, the list is running too long) posts, even with just a fraction of their wisdom or some other finer touch.

Promise, I really did.

But you can easily see, from the only response to your post, that we fail to see wimins deeper endowments just beyond the fact that they don't brawl like us!

But thanks for your encouraging pat on the poor Homo Sapianos' backs

The matters of global injustice hold different dynamics and in such situations, the search for justice requires external struggles, backed by active support, not just some philosophical introspection.

I disagree....

Victimhood is not necessarily an individual thing. Most disadvantaged cultures can be socialized into a pattern of thinking of feeling like a "victim." I've pointed to the Palestinian for instance to prove my example but since some members are too sensitive in my examples I'll use blacks and women. Blacks have been a disadvantaged grouped for as long as our ancestors arrive. Our socialization started since the ancestors toiled in American lands. However, centuries old abuse and stigma's placed on us have caused us to become self-victims due to the unfair system created by America. Since, the system is unfair this has cause some members in the black community to not try. Some commit crimes with the emphasis that "the man is holding me down" quite funny since they are the ones freely not looking for work or committing jobs.

Similarly some women have been socialized into thinking they are second to men of course it is changing but there are women who behave as if they are victims as well when there are opportunities for women. I acknowledge that there are real injustices and although there are victims of such injustices how long are we going to remain victim? So far foreign Muslims have not shown me that they can arise out of their own trials. American blacks have done it and some continue to do it (mind you, we have been disadvantage since the 1600's so this is longer than any current Muslim strife) women are doing it and are doing well and better than before. So in reality there is no excuse.

Yes I acknowledge there are war zones and children dying and all that but this is no different than what I face everyday and trust me, I can tell you stories.\

Brother, we are here, discussing present atrocities, specially, in this thread. We are not holding some symposium on the Global History of Mankinds Tortures in various ages. The U S plays a handsome part in almost all the globe's tragedies of our here and now.

I agree that the U.S. is responsible for a lot of tragedies but there are other countries that have played into the suffering of others. The U.S. is not alone and no, its not just Britain. When soviets sell Kalashikov rifles to Arabs they contribute suffering so I would think there is a huge playing field of contributors it just so happens the U.S. is openly the antagonist.

Israfil wrote:  Some commit crimes with the emphasis that "the man is holding me down"

I would think that substance abuse is the main reason for crime and not the "man".

The matters of global injustice hold different dynamics and in such situations, the search for justice requires external struggles, backed by active support, not just some philosophical introspection.

I disagree....

Yaar�em, do you just disagree with me?

Or, do you disagree with the simple universal principle that in global injustice situations, justice is achieved through actual effective external struggles?

If just the internal worked then those millions of Indians shouldn�t have beaten the hell out of their masters, our good old Mohandas Karamchand Ghandhi should have squatted in his Ahmddabad prison cell, just on his own, and they would have got their Tricolour, without moving a finger.

Most disadvantaged cultures can be socialized into a pattern of thinking of feeling like a "victim."

Yes, I agree, but this applies only to disadvantaged cultures.

Where, when and how a culture comes to feel disadvantaged is unfortunately not the same for all peoples of our world. Our sense of our advantage and our disadvantages very much depend on our desire shopping lists and also on our psyches.

The African American was thousands of miles away from even the faintest memories of his homeland leave aside any possibility of ever getting back there. He had no rights. Thanks to the plantation owner�s greed that kept a roof over his head and some food in his stomach.

Pure survival forced him to accept his situation and, over the generations, he graduated into a disadvantaged culture.

The African American example doesn�t fit the Palestinian or some 14 years old Afghan lad with one leg blown off by some landmine. He is in his homeland. There is a very interesting Punjabi saying: apni dheri tay kutta wi sher hunda � even a common stray dog is like a Lion on his own patch.

This saying almost says it all.

I sometimes pity the NATO forces for not knowing Punjabi or, at least, some its very old and applicable idioms.

My friend, the Afghan or the Palestinian dog has been standing on his patch for a little over a few thousands of years. Plus, unlike our African American, he doesn�t feel like a victim. If someone has told you that these chaps are ready to kill and get killed out of some victim mentality then please do pass this chap my phone contacts, I will normalise his mental reset for free. And, it�s some Chapie, I will also throw in a candle lit dinner with it!

Just fables. Mere stories. About people we have never met seen or experienced and as if the whole world does, feels, reacts and behave just in our own image!

A 14 years old Afghan lad sat sipping qahwa a Qissa Khawani Bazaar tea stall, in Peshawar.

One of his legs was amputated after a little date with a landmine. I asked him what he was going to do next.

The blighter looked at me with a calm smile and answered my question with a question:

�You are a Khan, don�t you know?�

I confessed, I was sort of an Export Quality Khan and I didn�t really know what the Kandhaar lads get on to these days.

�I know you are kidding, but I won�t argue with such a silver head� �when I can run again, I will run back to my mates and we will find the chap who sows the devil seed in my land�.

We both sat in silence sipping tea.

I watched him for a while. He had a strange deep resolve in his hazel brown eyes. He was a mere kid, a strange kid, with a strange regal look, of still dignity and that kind of strange power we can find playing on the face of some Flamenco singer, at the zenith of her performance.

I told him that right now he had only lost just a leg and what he now plans on doing could lose him his life. He placed his empty cup on the tray, lifted his metal crutch and came and stood opposite me, he offered his hand for me to shake. His break had finished and he had to go back to his bus cleaner boss.

He told me that he would win whether he lived or he died.

Yaar Israfil, this Masha Allah, Insha Allah, Allah o Akbar scenario is not a victim mentality based scenario. My friend, when a dog is fighting for his patch, he doesn�t feel victimised, he feels aggressed against. He fights for his land, he fights for his rights, he just fights for his freedom or whatever, but he fights with a spirit not just out of some pity for himself or his grandfathers� plight.

The African American model fails to fit here.

Israfil has  raised a very valid point about the  psychology of victimization.

If the Japanese had regressed  and retreated into the victimization mode after their humiliating loss after the second world war including the hiroshima and nagasaki bombings they wouldnt have achieved even half of what they have done today.

After the Jews in Germany lost everything they had during the holocaust they did not shelter themselves under the umbrella of victimization.   Instead they worked hard and using their brawn and brains control a large portion of the world's wealth,power and prestige.

Muslims in the conflict areas like afghanistan or palestine are doing exactly the opposite . They are being misled by their leaders and clergy in adopting a path of  blind confrontation  with the West without using their gray matter(Brain) which allah has provided them.

Until this policy is reversed by muslims themselves the sufferings, death and destruction in  areas like palestine and afghanistan will continue.

One of his legs was amputated after a little date with a landmine. I asked him what he was going to do next.

The blighter looked at me with a calm smile and answered my question with a question:

�You are a Khan, don�t you know?�

Thank you Whisper for posting this piece.

It just shows that the simple minded and gullible nature of Afghan people like the lad mentioned .

The afghans are being tricked by Groups like the Taliban and their leaders into sacrificing themselves and their families by false religious and extremist  propaganda .

The afghans are  living in a condition of total hopelessness, ignorance,acute poverty and misery.In such a state luring them with promises of riches and paradise in the everlasting life is relatively easy.

There is no Oil in afghanistan.All the West wants there is a land which doesnt become a

Operational playground for all the crazy fanatics whose only aim is to create hatred of all things Western.