Salaams Brother,

Your link that is in your signature doesn't work.

Did you write this poem?  Have you ever been in a mosque trapped as these people were, or is this poetic license for creativity?

ak_m_f wrote: interesting way of twisting facts.

Brother,

Salaams,  Could you elaborate?

Interesting brother.

Did you happen to take part of this mission? If so, I salute you for your bravery.

 Most of the Muslims in pakistan and India are Hanafi muslims. But their Hanafi Deobandi teachers do not teach them the proper things. According to the Imam Abu hanifah, it is forbidden to rise against a government which is established. That is an important principle if any one wants to follow.

Now these people who were running religious schools, did they not know about that ruling of a good guide, The Imam of Fiqah, Abu hanifah. Jihaad has also a few meanings. And it has conditions. They must be fulfilled. The two Ghazi brothers took on themselves to operate Jihad against a government, so the consequences are there. That is like doing a very honest duty, good work in the way of Allah but getting punished for that. Peace is the process not harshness.

The prophet lived in Makkah. But he did not do any Jihaad of the kind that these two Ghazi brothers tried to do. I do not want to defame or blame them. The consequences of this Lal masjid, the after math will also be bad. Because they (maulvis) have woved to carry our more attacks. All Muslims beware. They have no right to do that.

These Deobandis were running many schools. They were producing the Talibaan who fought well and gained a good government in Afghanistan. But what was the end result of that politics without spiritual guidance. These Afghans were no where as good as Hitler and his might. No good as the japanese. So why did they take on the world?? Because they can make a pistol on home made lathes so they think that they are capable of fighting. No. Fighting is not required at all.

Even now, it is better to learn a lesson. The debacle of Lal Masjid could have been avoided then it would have been much better. But it is all politics and who wants to lose a political battle?? Does Yazeed want to lose the battle?? But Hissain had to pay some price.

I liked the feeling of one good friend who saw a Afghan child (bachcha) picking food from a rubbish bin. He told me that these Afghans were the most beautiful people and very clean and honest practicing Muslims. But look how they been misled and ruined that their children are collecting the rubbish in the cities. Very true. I was very sad to learn that.

I don�t know enough about poetry or the incident at the Lal Masjid to comment on that.

However, I�d like to comment on the following statement:

�According to the Imam Abu hanifah, it is forbidden to rise against a government which is established.�

If it is forbidden to rise against an established government then what kind of government can people rise against; one that is not established and does not exist? That is like saying every government anywhere and at all times must be supported, even if it is unjust and evil.

THE MINDLESS FANATICS IN PAKISTAN ARE NOT ONLY HARMING THE NOBLE IMAGE OF ISLAM BUT ALSO STRIKING AT THE VERY ROOTS OF PAKISTAN.

PEACE,SENSIBLE THINKING,VISIONARY LEADERSHIP AND AN OPEN MINDSET ARE THE ONLY WAYS TO SOLVE THE PROBLEMS FACING  MUSLIMS TODAY.

ITS HIGH TIME THAT THE SILENT MAJORITY OF SENSIBLE THINKING MUSLIMS ACT AND ISOLATE THESE FANATIC ELEMENTS BEFORE THEY CAUSE SERIOUS DAMAGE TO ISLAM BY THEIR st**id AND INEXCUSABLE  ACTIONS.

As'salamualaikum,

I was surprised to read few members supporting there dear president.

First of all Lal masjid was creating state within state; They were trying to impose their own "taliban-Islam" on majority by the barrel of Gun. It all started when Gov issued the notice of demolition; because the mosque was built on stolen land public property.

Hope u have gone thru the history of lal masjid by now. If not u , there 's little enough at sign readers post. I  respect you ak_m_f   but in this case it was very sad to  know your opinions. Pakistan was separated with the aim to established a muslim state. Is this the islam that Pakistan now has? 

Lal masjid went to shops and threatened Video stores;
Then they kidnapped police men that were around mosque and disarmed them.

And let me , let know the readers that these videos had bollywood and hollywoood cassettes and blue flims as well. Oh is n't bad that lal masjid went to that shop and threatened. We shud have continued that bussiness na .  I would term better - Pakitani islam does allow that. Is n't it?

Does islam allow such things as to view those bollywood films wherein naked woman dance and u enjoy. I s it not our duty to threaten them when the govt is mute. But the fact which i know is that these people gave sometime of about 3 months and asked them to change there business. But still they  did not change so they had to smash them. Whats wrong in doing that when the westernised govt took no action against such vulgarities.

And  minuteman - don't u remember the hadith jaha'n imaan ke darjaat bataye gaye hai. Unn me se ek hai , burayi ko haat se roko. Aur sabse kamtar imaan ka darjah hai, jaise ki aapne ne apne post me zikr kiya -" No. Fighting is not required at all.". Sirf  dil mein bura jano. The least one of imaan. But those people were in the first stage of imaan and so they physically revolted after being giving them some time to change.

Am sorry that i was harsh but its sad that we today being a muslim. charge against our own. Become readymade muftis and state that so and so is wrong. Shud there be no stop in a muslim state for exposings and sex trades and such vulgars. Its not a non-muslim country that such things be encouraged. Shall we allow our sisters to go to those massage centres or trade them. In the name of modernisation, we are trying to modernise islam. Where as there is no  scope to change quran according to our own moods and values. Its the time to hold strictly to Quran and hadith. Now u call them fundamentalist, or fanatics or terrorists.

 Sorr, Imissed to notice the fine printed reply from aka2x2. Here is that message:

 I don�t know enough about poetry or the incident at the Lal Masjid to comment on that.

However, I�d like to comment on the following statement:

�According to the Imam Abu hanifah, it is forbidden to rise against a government which is established.�

If it is forbidden to rise against an established government then what kind of government can people rise against; one that is not established and does not exist? That is like saying every government anywhere and at all times must be supported, even if it is unjust and evil.

__________________

Respectfully
aka2x2

 Well my reply is that I did not quote the full proper advice of the great Imam. So now I give a slightly amended correct version here. He said that nobody should rise against any government established lawfully or unlawfully.

 Please now note the words "Lawfully or unlawfully" and these are more important. That almost forbids the (Hanafi) Muslims to rise against any established goverment. What is the reason, I do not know. I am also not a scholar. It is for every one to understand and comment as they like. That is the advice of the great Imam.

Please also keep in mind the word "Rise". That means a revolt. So, perhaps it is forbidden to revolt but allowed to use other means of love, preaching and persuasion etc. I cannot say. Have a good time please.

minuteman wrote:    Most of the Muslims in pakistan and India are Hanafi muslims. But their Hanafi Deobandi teachers do not teach them the proper things. According to the Imam Abu hanifah, it is forbidden to rise against a government which is established. That is an important principle if any one wants to follow. ..............................

I think you are misinterpretting. Hanafi can't have a principle which is against the teaching of Quran. If it is so, how can u be a muslim violating any part / teaching of Quran?

to ak_m_f I say, it would have been better if India had conquered Pakistan than Musharraf. Why? Because Monafiqeen are worse than Kuffar as they stab in the back.

If India invaded Pakistan most Muslims would have risen up against them, and then you would have the likes of Musharraf joining the Indian army and happily murdering his own countrymen for a few worthless rupees, as we see the National Guards doing in Iraq.

The people of Iraq have understood that these so called "National guards" and their leaders are no more Muslim than American soldiers, something which the people of Pakistan have only now started to wake up to regarding Musharraf and his Kennel Government.

I am extremely apalled and at the same time saddened at the immaturity,lack of understanding,empty bravado and foolishness of some of the members  here in this forum.

General musharaff  had very few choices left in the lal masjid incident.The  concerned Mullahs in this case bear full responsibilty for the unfortunate events that followed.

By the way the fanatical elements are hell bent on destroying whatever is left of pakistan and taking it back to the stone ages.Not only pakistan, muslims everywhere are paying the price due to their senseless acts of violence. thats why the Enemy of Islam is   present within and its under siege from these irresponsible fringe elements of the community.

I repeat and will say it emphatically unless the silent muslim majority rises up in one voice against these violent fanatical elements then we are all doomed to be in the same  suicidal pathway to destruction as these elements .

Enough is enough there should be no more room in Islam for these maniacal  violent morons who are hell bent on tarnishing the noble image of Islam

syed123 wrote: Enough is enough there should be no more room in Islam for these maniacal  violent morons who are hell bent on tarnishing the noble image of Islam

Are you talking about the Pakistani Army and their American allies?

I am referring to those political leaders, Mullahs and their followers who are twisting and misinterpreting the noble message of Islam for their own selfish ends

syed123 wrote: I am referring to those political leaders, Mullahs and their followers who are twisting and misinterpreting the noble message of Islam for their own selfish ends

yeah they selfishly want to sacrifice their lives instead of bravely obeying the United States in return for money!

General musharaff had very few choices left in the lal masjid incident.

Are we talking of the same General who started to think of saving Pakistan just once he was sacked from his position? And, has occupied the poor country as an American proxy?

Well, Shah saheb, the members on this forum were not hatched just today, from some reptilain eggs. Some of us here do have a few more brain cells to rub together than the entire collection of the Brooking Institute scholars.

Kindly, do mind your bursts, we are not all just Amreekis here.

Incidents like the one at Lal masjid are inevitable consequences of the struggle between the reasonable majority muslim ummah  and the irresponsible and misguided fanatical minority.

NOBODY IS PERFECT INCLUDING GENERAL MUSHARRAF BUT UNDOUBTEDLY HIS  PROGRESSIVE AND PRAGMATIC POLICIES HAVE SAVED THE SKIN OF PAKISTAN TILL NOW...........

PAKISTAN DOESNT NEED ANY EXTERNAL ENEMIES.THE FANATICS WITHIN IT WHO ARE HELL BENT ON CREATING A ARMAGEDDON LIKE SITUATION  IN PAKISTAN ARE MORE THAN ENOUGH .

Incidents like the one at Lal masjid

Why did this incident start to brew just after Dick Chenney's Islamabad visit in which a hot exchange of words took place? My most revered murshed, it was all meant for delivering a message to the US.

UNDOUBTEDLY HIS  PROGRESSIVE AND PRAGMATIC POLICIES HAVE SAVED THE SKIN OF PAKISTAN TILL NOW

Shah saheb, I have really begun to love you. Please don't get startled, I am a Pathaan in name only, not at all in the practices they are well known for.

Could you please mail me the address of the cloud cuckoo land you live on? Saved Pakistan skin - perhaps, just in his "In Lane for Hire" but caused a thrid degree Cancer of the bone, with two full scale civil wars going in two of the country's four provinces?  

Sir, dare I ask when were you in Pakistan last? How long you were there and did you go anywhere beyond the 1st Chowrangi?

syed123 wrote: I am extremely apalled and at the same time saddened at the immaturity,lack of understanding,empty bravado and foolishness of some of the members  here in this forum.

You are a newbie and you are starting here on wrong foot, you haven't earned any laurels yet and violating # 8, 15 and 16 of the forum guidelines.

Who gives a crap if you are appalled?

The question is whether you will last on this forum with this chip on your shoulders!

Let me fill you in that there are no more than a couple of Mushies around here!

You will have to put forward a convincing evidence, there are no two ways about it.

syed123 wrote: General musharaff  had very few choices left in the lal masjid incident. The  concerned Mullahs in this case bear full responsibilty for the unfortunate events that followed.

There will be a court inquiry and we will find out sooner or later.

Who died and left you the judge anyways?

Let's talk about his legitimacy about your Syed general first, how did he get  to the presidency? the army thugs  invading the Prime Minister�s residence! It is also called �dadageeri� in your language and So you think this forum will support you?

Think again!

We will find out who is responsible  pretty soon.

How many generals have toppled the elected presidents in the land where you live now?

How many churches have been demolished and seminaries burnt by the order of the POTUS in the country?

Isn't right to bear arms is constitutional?

What is the credibility of this President after the Chief Justice fiasco? Why should we believe him? he might be your savior but not us here on  this site

Not a single news paper in and around Islamabad or near by city like Lahore supports Mush on this, and hundreds of columns been written protesting in sympathy of the homeless women and children and still going strong. Who are you fooling?

http://www.nawaiwaqt.com.pk/ - http://www.nawaiwaqt.com.pk

http:// - http://www.jasarat.com

This crime of Lal Masjid of burning women and girls will haunt him to hell; mark my words!

Why is he running after his old nemesis (BB) in Dubai now ?

To save his derri�re, what else, one secular loser looking for another secularist for Islamic Republic1 wow   

syed123 wrote: By the way the fanatical elements are hell bent on destroying whatever is left of pakistan and taking it back to the stone ages.Not only pakistan, muslims everywhere are paying the price due to their senseless acts of violence. thats why the Enemy of Islam is   present within and its under siege from these irresponsible fringe elements of the community.

Save the crocodile tears for another time and place!

Why should they save the place for the thieving rulers? It is against the Quraanic Sign to help the thieves.

I am revising a charge sheet against these SOBs generals will post pretty soon!

The most Pakis are dirt poor living in the stone age anyways, the scenes of Baluchistan's flood washing away the mud houses were proof plenty in this age of enlightened moderation! What the people have gotten in 60 years.

What violence -- after torching  woman and children with phosphorus you think this is going to die out just like that, this sounds like  Israelis talking:

 Just wait and see!

I would agree the enemies of Islam are within and has been since the days of Mir Jafar and Mir Sadiq and their replications are currently in the shapes of  Paki Army generals and their handlers in MQM/PPP.

. The Pakistani military junta knows that since 1958 Pakistan was an army with a state rather than a state with an army. Go figure

syed123 wrote: I repeat and will say it emphatically unless the silent muslim majority rises up in one voice against these violent fanatical elements then we are all doomed to be in the same  suicidal pathway to destruction as these elements .

How did you miss the whole country except MQM land rose up in defiance to Mush and in favor of the Chief Justice?

The  scum in MQM land that were violently opposed to the justice and forget not the massacre of the May 12.

Your thinking is a disgrace to even American sense of Justice .

syed123 wrote: Enough is enough there should be no more room in Islam for these maniacal  violent morons who are hell bent on tarnishing the noble image of Islam

 Action speaks louder than words! This massacre is worse than what happened at Karbala cuz at least the Yazeed�s forces gave reprieve to the woman and children!

Now every action has equal and opposite reaction, pay back is hell! you know what I mean!

Finally please don�t malign the name of Islam by constantly invoking in your diatribe.

People doing "Allah's" work in http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=444_1185526035 - Pakistan

Yaar, ak_m_f, just work out why any country our good old Americans kiss suddenly and violently turns extremist?

THE ROOT CAUSE FOR THE PRESENT SITUATION IN PAKISTAN IS THE NON COMPROMISING VIOLENT IDEOLOGY OF THE FANATICAL ELEMENTS..

PAKISTAN IS AN ISLAMIC STATE ON PAPER BUT WITHIN THERE ARE INNUMERABLE DIVISIONS BASED ON ETHNICITY,SOCIAL CLASS,REGIONAL AND LINGUISTIC DIFFERENCES .  

 I HAVE SEEN NUMEROUS MATRIMONIAL ADS IN WHICH PEOPLE CLEARLY SPECIFY THEIR MOHAJIR AND NON-MOHAJIR PREFERENCES.   PAKISTAN WITH ALL ITS SINDI-NON SINDI,PUNJABI-NON PUNJABI,MOHAJIR-NON MOHAJIR,BALUCH-NON BALUCH,SHIA-SUNNI CONFLICTS IS CLEARLY AN EXAMPLE OF A FAILED STATE ON THE PATHWAY TO  DESTRUCTION .

PROFESSING ISLAMIC VALUES IS ONE THING BUT PRACTISING THEM IS A TOTALLY DIFFERENT BALL GAME.

The economic reforms by the Musharraf government totally reversed the situation ; now the economy is one of the fastest growing in asia. Pakistan foreign exchange reserves now exceed $15 billion, as against less than $1 billion when he took office. The foreign investment in Pakistan in the first 9 months of the 2006-2007 financial year have exceeded $5.0 billion. Per capita income of Pakistan in current dollars has more then doubled in the last 7 years and expected to exceed $1000 by 2008    

Today pakistan is witnessing a  a fight between radical extremism and moderation. It is a fight between fundamentalist Pakistan and modern Pakistan. This incident, seemingly localized, reflects the greater struggle that Pakistani society has recently been witnessing. The Lal Masjid issue is only the tip of the iceberg. The entire fate of the Pakistani society hangs in the balance; will Pakistan plunge into the darkness of religious fundamentalism or will the moderate voices prevail?

THE ROOT CAUSE FOR THE PRESENT SITUATION IN PAKISTAN IS THE NON COMPROMISING VIOLENT IDEOLOGY OF THE FANATICAL ELEMENTS..

I lived in Pakistan for four months and not that I am an expert by any means. But the root of the problems in Pakistan is the GREED exhibited by the ruling elite, both with the military and the wealthy, land-owning class.

These people have benefitted from keeping their fellow Moslems poor, and illiterate. Now, these people, are supported by outside governements such as the US government. Whose sole concern is themselves, not the Paksitanis, not the Afghanis, not anyone else.

The whole issue of Lal Masjid had been there for months. This is just a distraction ploy so people focus on it rather than other issues.

I am not sure what you mean by non-compromising.. the whole society is complex. Its not just oner aspect. And really most of this is all politics and self-ego.

The economic reforms by the Musharraf government totally reversed the situation ; now the economy is one of the fastest growing in asia.

Sir, you think, we will be taken in by your copy n paste exercises of such mediocre governmet propoganda, just because you are using some mega fonts?

The country is already flooded with such third rate spin, which has been refuted by learned quarters with lesser axes to grind.

Yes, Pakistan has turned into a global stock brokers' paradise, this has little to do with any general's jugglary, it's just that the Pakistanis started to transfer their funds back to the Pakistani banks, after the New Financial Regulations were introduced, on First December 2001,

It seems you haven't been to your country for quite sometime. Or, you haven't bothered to measure the plight of people who don't breathe in the stock brokers' world.

I am no scholar, but I just happen to know this much that  Islam is a societal order, it emphasies social justice. It's not just some pack of balance sheets of one or the other colour.

I lived in Pakistan for four months and not that I am an expert by any means. But the root of the problems in Pakistan is the GREED exhibited by the ruling elite, both with the military and the wealthy, land-owning class.

As usual, I fail to add anything to your post. You have hit the nail on it's head and with absolute precision.

The country has been under occupation, by it's own army but always as someone's proxy. This blockage of civil growth is the primary reason of her woes.

Inject all the worlds dollars or flash any number of balance sheets, a sick society would always remains in the Intensive Care unit till we develop a culture in which a man is treated as a man - with social justice.

ak_m_f wrote: People doing "Allah's" work in http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=444_1185526035 - Pakistan

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-1031193821250574185 - A Nation down the Drain ( Jesus Camp ) part 1

Sign Reader,

 I couldn't agree with you anymore. I stayed away from this thread thinking it was black and white case. But when I red what some members painted here I said some people will not learn no matter what.

What happened Lal mosqe was war on Islam. How sane muslim miss that?!!!

Abu Mujahid

The one underlying theme seen in many of the postings here is a thoughtless  bashing of the western world .

Instead of offering constructive and realistic solutions to the problems plaguing the Ummah,some of the postings here are purely short sighted ,confrontational and irrational bordering on personal attacks.

All i can say and reiterate is that Violence is hurting the muslim Ummah all over the world more than any body else and will continue to do so till we ordinary muslims take the moral high ground,isolate and educate the misguided minority and stop being misused and misled by our power hungry mullahs and leaders.

Here in the USA ,the ordinary american doesnt like  or enjoy violence.All he wants is to earn his livelihood,enjoy life raise his children and have a peaceful life like iam sure any iraqi,pakistani,afghani,indian,european or arab would want to do.

Thats why its sheer insanity to watch the fanatical fringe of any community resort to violence and take shelter under the guise of religion for which the whole community has to pay the price.

Tolerance not only for other faiths but also within our own faith,interfaith dialogue , pragmatic leadership,grassroot work among the common masses and a global vision are the needs of the day otherwise we are going to spend our lifetimes grappling with countless Lal masjids while the rest of the world passes us on its way to progress.

Here in the USA , the ordinary american doesnt like or enjoy violence. All he wants is to earn his livelihood,enjoy life raise his children and have a peaceful life like i am sure any iraqi, pakistani, afghani, indian, european or arab would want to do.

Great! Now to the positive Action Plan time!

Let's start from the home base. Sir, grant us the recipe of how an Afghani, an Iraqi would fry his dream of earning his livelihood, raising his children and also enjoying a ball game or two or even having just a peaceful life?

I sincerely hope you won't be hopping about here there n everywhere at least this once. Should I repeat the question in case it has dropped from your sight, already?

while the rest of the world passes us on its way to progress.

The world doesn't pass us by on its way to progress because we have empty minded military dictators that the elite of your calibre supports to the hilt?

Musharraf did what he had to do to prevent his country from falling into the hands of these extremists. Bravo Mr. Pressident.

Start with the name of Allah who is the creator of the universe who has most mercy and kindness.

Lal Masjid Issue is a very sensitive and emotional issue in which we observed two extremes. Also under this thread I was first time experienced in IC forum discussion that bro. Seekshidath who always very soft in talk (Needless I only experienced sisters for such a soft in talk),   also came under emotions on Lal masjid issue and swing the other peak in support of  Lal Masjid

Administration and also observed Bro. a-k-m-f and sign reader who are aslo showing extreme in favor of their opinion. Even though I was not intended to given any comments on this heartbreaking and horrible incidents but after reading the discussion which has done under this thread I would like to put my humble opinion on this issue.

No one can say that what Lal Masjid Adminstration demands were wrong but just we have (as majority of the Pakistani people) the objection on the way they were adopt for pursuit their demands.

Unfortunately on this issue both parties were swinging extreme each side that is the reason if any one deeply observed then he will know that �People of Pakistan neither supporting or considering the Lal Masjid Mullahs nor they support the Dictator�s action who is dump and deaf now�.

Unluckily the innocent students or common men and the employees (army or police men) are came victims and lost their life due to the nonsense�s of each side bosses.

What I have approached on this issue is � Neither Lal Masjid Mullah�s are fighting for the sake of Islam nor Dictator was killing them for national interest, both parties were fighting on their personal agendas, personal objectives & for personal aims�.

First of all I would like to discuss on Lal Masjid Mullah�s. Even though I will not discuss so deeply on them bcz every one know about them and don�t want the replication of the same thing but surely I would like to raise the some questions on Lal masjid Administration sincerity of the Islam.

�        Pakistan existing time is more than sixty years now why these mullah suddenly awaken for implementation the Islamic System only when the Gov�t going to release the Gov�t land from their illegal occupation.

�        The parents send their children for learning the Quranic Knowledge with its original spirit not for the training of fighting then who were authorize to bring the Masjid or madarsa as a training camp.

�        Is ever Islam allowed for suicide attack if not then how these Mullah�s many time threaded the Gov�t that if the Gov�t will take any action against us then our followers will go suicide attack.

�        If these so called religious people were so sincere with the implementation of the Islam then why they attempt to escape in the veil. Needless up to that time more than hundreds students and many army and civilians had been lost their life when Mulana Abdul Aziz tried to escape.

�        Why Abdul Rashid Ghazi (late) was agreed on a agreement with the Gov�t in which he willing to surrender and handover the Lal masjid to the Gov�t on the condition that he will not be arrested and will be allowed to go his home town. He died only due to the Dictator foolishness to whom Allah Almighty taken away the all thinking power and wisdom.

�        Are their this action is not prove correct the allegation of the anti-Muslim lobbies those were blaming that religious schools instead of teaching the Qurain and religious knowledge, are busy for training in which the young people are brain washed and then they utilize them for their objective on the name of Islam. Did we not prove this by the many suicide attacks against to the innocent people that those who are doing these suicide on the name of Islam are being brainwashed by so called Mullah�s and they don�t have any proper understanding of the Islam.

�        Here the question can raised that why these people were going to bow in front of the govt only after lost the hundred young students lives, were they not aware the consequences of their rigid actions in which they did not have to support of any single religious Scholar even their own organization �Federal Medars Organization� top leadership came to them and requested that whatever they are doing it will not support the Islam but reversal it will wrong impact too.

�        What was their source to get the heavy weapons and in such a large stock of these if they bought these weapons from where they collect the money for this business.

Many of other questions can raise with these so called Religious scholar. But at the same time we are totally condemn the action, which was taken by the Gov�t.

Dictator�s barbarism was the worst in the recent history, Alas Dictator�s always came very bold to conquer the own land people but came Jackal before nation enemy. Present Dictator�s will be well remember in the history to his remarkable victories by conquering his own nation and due to shown the extra-ordinary smartness to bow before the enemies in different occasion. Pakistan never experienced so worst in her life like in this dictator time.

As conclusion I would say that �Mullah Military Alliance�  (MMA) is pushing the country on the worst situation which we were never been experienced in our life & only Allah Almighty knows what kind of consequences we will have to face in our near future. May Allah give us the strengthen to bear all of such difficulties.  

May Allah give us the strengthen to bear all of such difficulties.  ....AMEEN!!

"........what happened during Operation Silence is a massacre. PERIOD!"

We are not appreciating or supporting the operation silence but we also can not take out the mullahas being  responsible of this operation and for the innocent lives which we lost on a unknown way.

The one underlying theme seen in many of the postings here is a thoughtless  bashing of the western world 

Could it be remotely possible, my most esteemed master of utter wisdom and all the secrets of this universe, that your such revered western world might have also had some contributions in all of this?

Sign*Reader
Senior Member


Brozer, been mucho ocupado for a few days. I have copied your great post to my Morshed from your part of the world. You don't need any reinforcements, but nevertheless, I am still posting some, just for old times sake!

Just in a few moments.

i dont know about others people and their knowledge about lal masjid and jamia hafsa but i 'read views and opinions of different people and sorry to say most of them were not right in their approach.i being a pakistani,not only living in islamabad but also only on 10 minutes drive from sector G-6 where all it happened.

                  what were the objectives of mushraff behind this brutal act.everybody knows he just want to extend his tenure.earlier he occupied the country without nation's or public's will.nobod elect him but he forcefully becae our preseident then he served totally for america after occupation to islamic republic of pakistan and almost all nation went against of him either it iz iraq war or afghanistan or issu of our nation's patron AQ khan or chief justice issu.now mushraff came 2 know he cant be president forxt 5  years so he thought the only option left iz to please america and bloody bush so that in reward they may give him more luxries n wealth.

                      well i m not surprised why mushraff attacked lal mosque and jamia hafsa but i m surprised bcoz of some people who r absolutly playing the role of munafqeen.we cant expect anything good frmm a non muslim regarding muslims and Mr Mushraff iz a qadiyani,gave her daughter to parsiz,n his son iz married widin qadiyani family,his wife iz also qadiyani,he iz son of prostitute,wht a muslim he iz? how can v expect anything good and virtous to him.but some people who are going against jamia hafsa and lal masjid are really ununderstandable to me.i m the person who met 100 of ppl daily n exchange opinion on different issues.so thing iz dat 90% pakistani public iz against this brutal act.among 10% who r in favour of govt are mostly qadiyanis n shias.y qadiyanis iz in favour of him there iz nothing to talk about.their n mushraff objective iz same so they must favour him.while as far as shias r concerned they dont know wht ver happening inside n even they dont want to know.they r goig in favour of govt bcoz they ver having problem wid this name only that iz "hafsa".as i belong to a syed family so i m having also shias in my family so nobody know them better than me.

                      the people who ver saying people of lal masjid n students ver ronge.i dont agree wid them.u people dont know the actual situation.

                       i asked one question to everyone n inshAllah i'll ask this question to some official person if Allah give me opppertunity.why bloody mushraff and his companions attacked on jamia hafsa and lal masjid.were,criminal,lotters,robbbers,murderer inside. absolutly they ver not.then y they attacked on them while situation iz dat all politicians plundered pakistan top of the list mushraff.

                      well some people are asking frmm where they got weapons.a kind information for the ppl plz be logical n genuine in ur approach.they ver not having weapons at all.it iz matter of common sense pakistani army used to much bombs dat even iron of windows n doors got melt but really funny to know that all weapons r still new n well arranged n it didnt get burn it iz really a silly joke n only silly ppl will believe on that.the gove iz saying they ver having rocket launcher.only the ppl who listened the name of rocket launcher 1st time they can believe on that but ppl like me cant.being a student of all such weapons i know dat if they wud have all this then govt and his companions wud know wht the weapons r.n it iz also funny they didnt use all these weapons but they left for mushraff n his shofers so dat they do propaganda easily against them.a kind information such weapons need only one spark to get burn but in the situation when whole jamia was burning,weapons survived its really a big joke.and one thing more when a jouranalist tried to smell all these weapons to know either it used or not then Mr waheed rashid snatched dat gun frm his hand n said it iz automatic dont touch.iznt it a big joke to u ppl. 4 me it iz really a big joke.then govt was claiming the terrorist of other counteries r also inside n they gave only 2 photos in newspaper n said these r terrorists frmm uzbakstan but unfortunately when there parents saw their pics in newspaper they came and said he iz our son give us his dead body.both ver frmm attock city.one was frmm village shakardara and one was frmm mirza.yesterday i heard official spokesman was saying no terrorist frmm other country was inside?iznt it humourous 2 u.then gove saying only one female dead during operation and she was ghazi's mother n casualties ver only abt 100 but when last week when ejaz-ul-haq came to lal masjid for offering namaz-e-asar when masjid was opened 1st time after operation,mr ejaz-ul-haq was sitting on minbr-e-rasool.one journalist who was pretty old he said mr ejaz-ul-haq u r sitting on minbr-e-rasool now plz dont speak lie n tell me correctly how many ppl dead inside then ejaz-ul-haq stood up n left minbr-e-rasool n kept quite.all journalistsbegan to laugh.n he really make me laugh too.i thoght chalo kuchh sharam to hai iss main warna main to samjhi thi....?

                so briefly it was a brutal attack.only those ppl can participate or support this zulm whose hearts r free frmm imaan.and ppl who r talking against ghazi bros only one thing for them.have ur own opinion but remember onething we have to face Almighty oneday.n will be asked abt our words too.n v didnt do zulm wid only hand but also wid tongue or words.so dont be zalim othervise at the end u ppl will b arise frmm yazeed group bcoz he was biggest zalim of human n islamic history.and onething more there wasnt any single action of ghazi and his bro was anti islamic n onething more he iz shaheed its not my saying u know one of my bro'sfriendwho Participated in this operation told him that he was having bleeding since his burial n dat iz a sign of shahadat acc to hadiths.N LOOK AT HIS END HE WAS SMILING.HE WASNT ASHAMED WHT HE DID BUT HE WAS PRETTY SATISFIED.I M SURE VIEWERS OF GEO TV N ARY WONT LIKE MY WHOLE THREAS BUT THATS TRUTH N U HAVE TO FACE.

                 IN THE END MAY ALLAH MAKE PAKISTAN TRULY ISLAMIC REPUBLIC N SAVE US FRMM MUNAFQEEN N TRAITORS AAMEEN.

SAVE US FRMM MUNAFQEEN N TRAITORS AAMEEN.

Ameen...thanks.. Ferwa_Syeda....btw....these were exactly what I got from my brothers in Pakistan......which have left me speechless.

Musharraf did what he had to do to prevent his country from falling into the hands of these extremists. Bravo Mr. Pressident.

A man who had believed all his life, in Rising in Love, simply fell in love just a few minutes ago!

It's just another matter that he yet doesn't know whether he loves his friend's sloganeering more or just his beautiful sublime eyes that have been crafted, for not seeing the simplest and the most obvious.

This afternoon, I promise, I will spend writing verse in praise of the innocents of our world. Innocents, of par excellence, who fail or possibly refuse to glance through the pages of histrory that show us that;

The greatest and the only gift all dictators leave for their subjects is just extremism, violence and the utter chaos.

A few minutes ago, I have seriously fallen in love!

i dont know about others people and their knowledge about lal masjid and jamia hafsa but i 'read views and opinions of different people and sorry to say most of them were not right in their approach.i being a pakistani,not only living in islamabad but also only on 10 minutes drive from sector G-6 where all it happened.

My respected dukhtar Sayeda

I am amazed at your profound observations.

I was in Pakistan when the first few episodes of this drama were being dircted. You are right, our good old gone past his shelf date Mush is dancing to his Washington and Tel Aviv masters' gallery for nothing other than his survival.

All of this was set up after Dick Chenny's Islamabad visit and the now famous shouting match about the US plight in Afghanisan. The poor chap had to do something, when it's just a uniform you have, you can not afford to give it up.

Gen Pervez Musharaff is not a qadiayani.This is false propaganda and lies being spread by the very same forces who once accused the great poet and thinker Allama Iqbal and also qaid e azam of being a qadiyani. I challenge any body to put forth substantial evidence instead of mouthing falsehoods which is unbecoming of a muslim.

According to Khabrain (July 1, 2004) then prime minister-in-waiting Shaukat Aziz said that he was not a Qadiani and all the rumours spread about his being one were false and malicious. He pronounced Al Hamdu Lillah and said that he was a Sunni Muslim and the clerics who instructed him in Islam were still alive and could vouch for his not being a Qadiani.

This is false propaganda

Master, is there also some unfalse propaganda?

My most wise friend, please, could you enlighten us just on one simple matter and, I beg thee Master, without shouting abuse at us lesser mortals:

What is the only gift, recorded in the annals of history, that dictators leave their subjects other than extremism, violence and also civil war of the type that poor country is now facing in N W F P and Baluchistan?

ISLAMABAD, July 12 (APP): Mediamen visited the Jamia Hafsa here on Thursday and saw the centre of the militancy, which exposed the tall claims of the madrassa management about promotion of Islamic Education. The visit left no doubt that instead of being a seminary imparting religious education, it was a centre of militancy, according to a PTV report.

The government had held repeated negotiations with the management of Lal Masjid to save the lives of maximum number of innocent children and women, but all these efforts proved futile in the face of rigidness of Maulana Abdul Rashid Ghazi Naib Khateeb of the seminary.

Finally in the early hours of July 10 the law enforcing agencies had to launch an operation against the extremists in the Jamia Hafsa.

At roof top of the Jamia Hafsa extremists had piled up sand bags to make their pickets and resort to firing on the security forces.

The operation by security forces against the extremists continued almost 36 hours during which the militants gave strict resistance.

The ammunition, rocket launchers, machine guns, hand grenades, petrol bombs and suicide bombing equipment recovered from the Jamia Hafsa are indicative of the large scale preparations made by the militants for confrontation.

The children studying in the Madrassa were used to be brain washed and given military training.

All the male and female students were not allowed to go home, while their parents were kept at distance from them whenever they come to meet.

The rooms for meeting between parents and children were so constructed that they remained separated by a net of iron rods, presenting the scene of the meeting place in a jail rather than in a madrassa.

The rooms give the impression that the parents were meeting with dangerous criminals not their children.

Shaukat Aziz is not the first man who has had to humiliate himself like this.

Do you happen to know him, personally?

Are you really as innocent and as naive as you come out to be? Do you seriously not know of persons would do anything to be in power even for a few days? Specially of the kind that steal power?

Sir, I love your drama. You shout the problems of umma and all that at us and in the same breath you support usurpers and enemy agentors?

Pakistan is one of the most beautiful countries of the world I have known. Saeen, agreed, I am not as "travelled" as you have cliamed in one of your maiden posts, but I have only been able to taste just a wee less than half the world. Plus, it's the only country in the world with the finest and the largest single irrigation network in the world. That effects us as farmers, sorry, as peasants.

This country would not be in this shape today but for the likes of dictators and usurpers you seem to promote while shouting at these poor Muzlims to civilise and develop a culture of negotiations!

What then is your game?

The people of Pakistan are solely responsible for all their misfortunes today.They were responsible for electing the most corrupt leaders like nawaz sharif and the bhutto family.

Gen Pervez Musharaff  stepped in with good intentions to stabilize the country when it was going to the dogs.  Unfortunately the fanatics who are bent on  taking pakistan on the pathway to destruction have put him in a tight spot and the common man in pakistan has to pay the ultimate price.

Unfortunately pakistan has become a classical example of a failed islamic state solely due to the machinations  of  religious right wing  fanatics.

Gen Pervez Musharaff stepped in with good intentions to stabilize the country when it was going to the dogs. 

Most revered Master, I am delighted to find at least one man other than the US admin who can certify his intentions, I have never been some cell in his brain and am not privy to any such sacred info.

But I have a very special friend of mine. He is quite a fine writer and also an ex-army chap. He always asks me some very st**id questions and one these is:

Why didn't the General think of doing something for his country while he was still the Chief of Staff? And was bitten by the bug of Shaving the Nation only when he was legally removed from his post?

I am just a peasant and hold no real answer for him? Shall I pass you his address, you could deal with him or ask the CIA to put him on some rendition flight and rehabilitate him in Guantanamo Bay?

The people of Pakistan are solely responsible for all their misfortunes today.They were responsible for electing the most corrupt leaders like nawaz sharif and the bhutto family.

Master of the Celestial oracles, I am more and more enamored by your wisdom. I am totally and in depth inspired by your words. Coulod I also have such a key-board that does all the thinking for you?

Great thought! All those Pakistani millions are absolute idiots unless and untill they vote only for persons only of the Master (or, his masters) choice.

Sir, what is your invention of this special democracy called?

Have you applied for the Patent?

seyd123 can respond

Paa jee, why doesn't our teacher respond in those other strings? Or, even in this one?

(You think, he is waiting for the script?)

First of all iam not a Mushite as some in this forum have claimed.

All i can say about Gen Pervez Musharaff is that he came to power with the best of intentions and at a very difficult time and  has managed to avoid a lot of landmines on his committed path of taking pakistan out of the mess it currently is.On the way he has made definitely a few blunders like the chief justice fiasco etc .   

Iam an ordinary member of the Ummah trying to understand the mindset of the religious radical elements who are bent upon taking the country to destruction by their destructive acts.

Trying to make peace with benazir or nawaz sharif is the right strategy in order to save pakistan from total destruction by the religious fanatics who have orchestrated the whole Lal masjid fiasco.          ; ;          There will be a  dangerous power vacuum if he decides to suddenly relinquish power and Gen Musharaff as a true patriot will never do that until a viable alternative is in place.

 At the same time there is no better alternative as far as my limited understanding and analysis of the whole situation in pakistan is concerned.       For all the rhetoric and personal attacks on me by some of the esteemed members of this forum, not a single person has suggested an viable alternative and pragmatic solution to the current mess.         & amp; nbsp;         & amp; nbsp;     May Allah grant the misguided and ill-informed elements of the Ummah  to the right path and give them the ability to think as visionaries and pragmatists .

Ameen

 There seems to be a tug of war here. Musharruf may be bad, as well described by S*R. All that glitters is not gold. The problem is that the other side is also dark. I mean the maulvis. Are they justified?? It is those maulvis who incited the Afghans to struggle without full guidance. The Afghans, handsome clean well believing people who had good self respect (Ghairat), they and their children are begging and searching the rubbish bins.

They were yearning to enforce Shariyat in the country. The Lal Masjid people were also trying to that. The same thing. They (Lal masjid people) opposed an established government. So the result is before us. The Musharruf government acted to remove the misunderstanding. Shariyat cannot be enforced. It will be a willing policy. When the Maulvis will have majority then they can opt for what they want.

At present, every one is yearning for the Shariyat. But the prive for Shariyat will be high and not every one will be happy to pay that price. There is no doubt that the law of Shariyat is the best law for all mankind. But S*R, please tell whose Shariyat will be enforced?? The Shia Shariyat or the Sunni Shariyat?? The Maulvis do not agree on many points, about freedom to preach any religion.

They believe that it is lawful to preach Islam in London and NewYork. But it is not lawful to preach christianity or Judaism or Hinduism any where in S. Arabia. Is that the right Islam??? Ifit is not right then please tell me what is the right type of Islam?? I have picked only one small point for clarification. There are many more like that being differed.

 I am not against Shariyat. But I am sure that the company of N. Sharif etc. with the Maulvis will never succeed, unless Nawaz Sharif first takes an oath from the Maulvis that they will remain peaceful. They will not call every one a kaafir. That had been their practice for the last 200 years.

It is not just the love of a religion or the love of th prophet s.a.w.s. which is required now. Much more is required. S*R do you think that any maulvi could have got Pakistan in the 40's?? Please be reasonable and gentle. Thanks.

You are a newbie and you are starting here on wrong foot, you haven't earned any laurels yet and violating # 8, 15 and 16 of the forum guidelines.

Brother, please, don�t say that.

He is my morshed and I haven�t had one for a long time! Plus, he is an American and when did you last see any Amreeki not starting on the wrong foot?

Who gives a crap if you are appalled?

Please, be careful and try a little and withdraw your words.

We are lucky, he is hurling just some words at us, normally, they bombs, anyone or anything, that doesn�t move their way.

The question is whether you will last on this forum with this chip on your shoulders!

Yaar, be honest, when was it last we had such fun?

We have even forgotten who was the last one copying n pasting official Washington handouts on this board. Was it Community? That great Recruiting Sergeant who was trying to get our AK MF into the army? And, it�s really easy to be nice to someone when you know they are here just for the monsoon.

Let me fill you in that there are no more than a couple of Mushies around here!

How would just one additional swallow ever force poor Mush�s bleak autumn into some spring?

You will have to put forward a convincing evidence, there are no two ways about it.

Now, that�s huge task!

For goodness' sake, be honest, how would he do that when his general has failed to come up with it? and that too with the entire resources of the country at his Imperial Service?

Any harm in aspiring for or just playing that role here?

Let's talk about his legitimacy about your Syed general first, how did he get  to the presidency? the army thugs  invading the Prime Minister�s residence! It is also called �dadageeri� in your language and So you think this forum will support you?

I promise, he just doesn�t know.

He believes that Mush had a dream, one night, a bit like Martin Luther King�s dream. Remember that resoanting: �I had a Dream!� line? Then he woke up and just started on the task of Shaving the Country.

Told you, he is just innocent.

Think again!

Now, that�s the real task!

Sir, if my morshed came with any such software won�t you agree that he would have at least known what actually cause extremism? instead of barking up all the wrong trees in his own veranda?

How many generals have toppled the elected presidents in the land where you live now?

Are we allowed just 23 minutes, on the internet, before answering your question, please?

How many churches have been demolished and seminaries burnt by the order of the POTUS in the country?

Sorry, pass!

Google doesn�t seem to throw any results for this one.

What is the credibility of this President after the Chief Justice fiasco?

I had seriously thought for sometime that we were friends and you kept it secret from me that he had any credibility even before that.

Not a single news paper in and around Islamabad or near by city like Lahore supports Mush on this, and hundreds of columns been written protesting in sympathy of the homeless women and children and still going strong. Who are you fooling?

How does it matter to you if my morshed feels that Fool�s Paradise is some great prestigious address? Specially, when it has taken him all these years to get there.

This crime of Lal Masjid of burning women and girls will haunt him to hell; mark my words!

You mean he will feel as if he were in Baluchistan?

Or are you speaking of some other hell?

Please guide.

Why should they save the place for the thieving rulers? It is against the Quraanic Sign to help the thieves.

Am I missing something here, is there something still left to be shaved?

I am revising a charge sheet against these SOBs generals will post pretty soon!

Sure? Won�t it take a wee more time than pretty soon to catalogue 59 years 11 months and 22 days of looting and shaving the country?

What violence -- after torching woman and children with phosphorus you think this is going to die out just like that, this sounds like Israelis talking:

But, Sir, you will have to agree that the army has to keep practicing and own people are the best targets for any army running �In Lane of Hire�?

. . . and forget not the massacre of the May 12.

He is our guest. He is here just for the few days and possibly with some grant from Karen Hughes� department to push the official line. And, you are rubbing salt into some very fresh wounds. You call that hospitality?

Your thinking is a disgrace to even American sense of Justice.

You didn�t mean to say the American Scent of Justice?

Finally please don�t malign the name of Islam by constantly invoking in your diatribe.

My friend, we should sincerely be kind with him. He is wrapped in absolute pure innocence. He really doesn�t know anything beyond what the Amrekans are allowed to know.

Just for an instance; he has started the �London and Glasgow Incidents� thread, with the same very innocence. He has flown with all manners of verbal salvos at us � without for one moment looking at the real cause of any events.

I promise, upon my scout�s honour, Sir, my morshed is not at all gulity of any thought at all. Please have mercy.

All i can say is that i cannot and will not stoop to his level  and class. Instead i will  pray for him and also will always strive to  maintain the decorum and civilized nature of this forum

Morshed, kindly, at least grant us the recipe to stoop to your class. I will be most grateful.

My morshed's greatest line of great and divine wisdom!

The people of Pakistan are solely responsible for all their misfortunes today.They were responsible for electing the most corrupt leaders like nawaz sharif and the bhutto family.

Stand to attention, folks! We must have a government only of my morshed's approval.

First of all iam not a Mushite as some in this forum have claimed.

I bear full witness to that, my Morshed is just being labelled as a Mushite. He stands confirmed as a full Bushite.

There seems to be a tug of war here. Musharruf may be bad, as well described by S*R. All that glitters is not gold. The problem is that the other side is also dark. I mean the maulvis.

My friend, you seem to have jumped to the conclusion that the the maulvis are the other side of this coin now being tossed about in this air!

These poor chaps never had any run in any affairs of the state till our Americans bombed Afganistan, occupied Iraq and got the Pakistan army, firmly, placed in the "Line For Hire".

The average Pakistani has, by now, got simply fed up with his own army killing own people just for pleasing Washington.

I am sure, you must have seen a wooden machine that crushes sugar cane (gana) and extracts its juice? The grand economic miracle has put an average Pakistan, just like a gana in that press, he is being crushed by the astronomical prices of food and other items.

The generals have pushed him to where he will even accept the devil and not just the maulvis.

Sir, your general never thought of shaving the country the night before he was removed from his post. It's a mere rumour that he had some great dream! (His After Eight dreams are no longer a secret for any Pakistani in the street. They all know, by now, why all orders issued After Eight need to be reconfirmed in the morning!)

For all these years, he has struggled just for keeping his uniform. Yes, he is a great asset, for the US, not for us. And, the Pakistanis hold every single right, under the sun, to have their man in Islamabad. This man turns out to be good or he turns out to be bad is their pot to carry.

Is that fair? Or, have be become ever so addicted to dictatorships and army occupations by London and Washington proxies? 

There will be a  dangerous power vacuum if he decides to suddenly relinquish power and Gen Musharaff as a true patriot will never do that until a viable alternative is in place.

Master, this does sound a bit like what Washington is trying to sell not just about Iraq, but about any place where they have their man.

Brilliant! Though, for just a few moments, I had taken it as a most original thought.

Do you generally suffer from dictator addiction or is this one the only exception?

Sign*Reader
Senior Member

Brother, is it any use flying so many words in our guest's direction? And, with all that hardcore factual stuff?

He is infatuated with two things. First, obviously, with the greatest general the world could have ever found, to get Pakis killed and at such a convenient per capita rate.

Second; with his key-board. He keeps on keying in, without any thought and also without ever reading any posts. Has he ever responded to any of your points. He posts sermons and just some script. Does it matter if it's relevant or not?

I don't mind if even you sign him up as your morshed, I told you he is absolutely innocent. If he werent so innocent, won't we find some content at least in any one of his posts?

Let's just enjoy him, he is such fun.

Firstly  i would like to congratulate minuteman for his mature post.

With respect to Whisper and all his cronies let me tell you my dear friends you are living in a fool's paradise. 

With all your sarcastic and immature comments you are not only  wasting your own time but also trying to mislead people with your shortsighted and inaccurate portrayal of reality.

We are in very delicate times and need to take pragmatic steps instead of getting bogged down in self made  unfortunate fiascos like the  Lal masjid tragedy.

Meaningless rants and sarcastic taunts are not the solutions .

The whole purpose of this forum atleast in my view is to try to discuss the current events and topics affecting the Ummah.

We can all agree to disagree without losing track of trying to explore meaningful soulutions.

We can all agree to disagree without losing track of trying to explore meaningful soulutions.

Morshed, somewhere in my previous posts, I had requested you to come up exactly with that: solutions. But, we haven't had any on the table even on the third day of that post.

Let me also assure you that this is an extremely mature forum and no one has any cronies, here. Non of us is infatuated by anyone or even by any particular idea.

With respect to Whisper and all his cronies let me tell you my dear friends you are living in a fool's paradise.

What a great delight to be found as neighbours! Shall we exchange phone contacts and then one day you could drop in for a pecan pie.

We are in very delicate times and need to take pragmatic steps instead of getting bogged down in self made unfortunate fiascos like the Lal masjid tragedy.

This no self made fiasco. It was crafted over years of misrule, by the army junta sold to shooting their own people and just for a few peanuts.

I love your style, you seem to champion the umma in the exact same breath in which you condone an army killing their own people. What's it? Nervousness at losing criminal MQM hold on that country in the wake of fresh events?

Bilal Musharraf is a Senior Associate at ePlanet Ventures focusing on investments in China, Pakistan, and India. He is a 2007 dual degree MBA/MA(Education) candidate at the Stanford Graduate School of Business and the Stanford University School of Education.

Like anybody else he is trying to make his living like everybody else here in a capitalist economy.I dont think there is anything wrong with that.

With regards to the privatization of the Steel mill i will expose all the lies and fallacies written by Sign *reader in my forthcoming post.

And, whenever your lines show as the official Washington propoganda script, my friend, I hold the courage to remind you of that.

Thus far you have come with nothing original other than your disregard for the right of Pakistanis to chose their government. What a beautifully fascistic idea!

With regards to the privatization of the Steel mill i will expose all the lies and fallacies written by Sign *reader in my forthcoming post.

Who are you accusing of lying here?

Have you read the Supreme Court of Pakistan judgement on the steel mills case? The same very case that made Shortcut Aziz mega nervous and, partially, led to the C J's bullying at the camp office.

Either you are too young or simply too naive to face the reality of any situation. Let's now come to the nuts n bolts. What do you know about anything going on in Pakistan - in actual reality, not through the State Department scripts.

Get your instructions from your bosses and please post those facts n figures about the steel mills fiasco.

We are all waiting for your next sermon.

For all those misguided individuals and rightwing fanatics  and their followers  i appeal to them to atleast cast a brief  glance at the life of our beloved Prophet Muhammad(PBUH) and borrow some lessons of life from it

Throughout the first thirteen years of his Mission, Prophet Muhammad preached in Makkah, but it was in the face of bitter opposition from the Makkans. When it became impossible for him to stay there, he left for Madinah. Wars were waged against him, but he showed his antagonists that the power of peace was far greater than that of war. The peace treaty of al-Hudaybiyyah is a clear example of this, when the Prophet agreed to every demand his antagonists made on the sole assurance that peace would subsequently prevail.

The Prophet�s own modesty, coupled with great strength of character, is depicted in a well-known story of an old Makkan woman who hated the Prophet. Every morning when the Prophet passed by her house, she would empty a basket of rubbish on his head from the upper story of her house. He never once remonstrated with her about this. One day, when the Prophet passed through this area, no rubbish fell on his head. Thinking that the old woman must be ill, he went upstairs to inquire how she was, and found her ill in bed. When she discovered that the Prophet had come to see her, she began to weep, "I ill-treated you, and now you come to inquire after my health!" Ultimately, she became one of his followers. What strength of character, what patience and tolerance the Prophet evinced in refusing to be provoked, preferring rather to show kindness and magnanimity to one who had wished him ill

His life�s experience ranged from penury to prosperity, from defeat to success, yet whatever the degree of well-being or hardship, he steadfastly trod the path of moderation. At all times and right till the end, he remained a patient and grateful servant of the Almighty, bringing his message of peace and tolerance to mankind.

((Haven't they have sold off all the big utilities and pocketed the loot,the steel mill's sale to the Indian Mittal's conglomerate ))) The above statement by sign*reader is a blantant false hood.

The actual facts are as follows.

Around 19 parties had filed expressions of interest for Pakistan Steel. Nine were pre-qualified of which eight conducted due-diligence exercise and six of them formed two competing consortiums. Those who now say that the accepted bid is low have had their chance to offer more. If they did not do it, when every one was free to do so, they do not have a cause for complaint.

The consortium, made up of Russia's Magnitogorsk Iron and Steel Works Open JSC, Saudi Arabia-based Al-Tuwairqi Group of Companies and Pakistani firm Arif Habib Securities, made a bid of $362 million for a 75 percent stake in Pakistan Steel Mills at an auction on March 31.

The choice for the government was clear - either invest another $800 million or sell it and let the buyer take care of fresh investment. It rightly chose the latter course.

The apex court had declared as invalid steel mills� transactions on March 26, 2006 by saying that its privatisation was conducted in haste and in a non-transparent manner.

After the court�s decision,  the government took the matter to the Council of Common Interests (CCI) which after having been reconstituted reaffirmed the privatisation of the Mills on August 2, 2006.

Steel Mills� transaction has started afresh as directed by the Supreme Court of Pakistan.The process  has again begun with the issuance of Initial Public Offering (IPO) to be followed by its strategic sale to a potential investor.

The economic benefits of privatization  far outweigh its evils in the  long term and the govt of pakistan is trying to reap its benefits by privatization as is the practice of every thriving capitalist economy of the world.

Syed,

You did not answer me.. how do you know that the Palestinians did not engage in peaceful protest and civil disobedience.. which seems to be what you are asking them to do..

Do you believe everything that the mainstream press tells you?

You talk about the "ummah" as if we are all in any power to do anything about world conflicts. If that were true there would be no war in Afghanistan, Iraq, Somalia, etc.

Also, have you ever been to Palestine? Just curious. Its easy to be an armchair quaterback. Why don't YOU head over thre to help these people. You talk like no one else is doing anything. How in the world do you know??

Syed,

You did not answer me..

Please be patient, my morshed isn't here to answer anyone, he is here with a sermon. Now, you can sit down.

how do you know that the Palestinians did not engage in peaceful protest and civil disobedience..

I suppose, you don't understand or haven't read his posts with just a wee bit of care. His solution is for the Pelestinian Refugee issue. Should I underline it for you? When did he touch the intifada or anything else?

Do you believe everything that the mainstream press tells you?

Nope! That's an absolute rumour. My morshed gets all his scripts direct from the State Department.

You talk about the "ummah" as if we are all in any power to do anything about world conflicts. If that were true there would be no war in Afghanistan, Iraq, Somalia, etc.

Now be honest, if you ask such questions, who will answer you? Also, tell me, what's the harm in performing a great sermon? 

Also, have you ever been to Palestine? Just curious.

Now I know why my morshed chooses to steer clear of people like you! You are curious? you are terribly intelligent, in fact, tu eres muy peligrosa (you are a very dangerour femle person) - very very very bad for our sermons tour.

Its easy to be an armchair quaterback.

Ever been dead bored in your life? with no one paying any attention? and having no clues about the realities of life? What do you know of armchair quarterbacks?

Why don't YOU head over thre to help these people. You talk like no one else is doing anything. How in the world do you know??

People? You mean these Palestinian Refugees? I watch Fox news, regularly, with my morshed and there has never been nada about any people doing anything about anyone.

You must be like all those other right wing extremist liars.

With reference to the very valid points raised by Hayfa  and also Whisper in his own Unique way:

The Palestinian struggle has faltered under an erratic and often corrupt leadership(PLO,Fatah) often under external influences (arab)resulting in disastrous consequences for the ordinary palestininan common man.

The Intifada which began as a civil disobediance movt in 1987 was rapidly hijacked by the extremist elements culminating in suicide bombings ,counter assassination of palestinians by the Israelis etc

Violence has been tried and tested with no tangible results for the palestinians.      So in short the answer to Hayfa's question is that though palestinians briefly experimented with Civil Disobediance it was shortlived and the movement has been hijacked and  been degraded to a violent uprisisng with empty rhetoric and untold suffering for the man on the street.

Also in answer to Hayfa, no i have never been to palestine but i have time and again personally  seen the dark side of violence,poverty and disastrous consequences of right wing extremist ideology in islamic and non-islamic countries on the  common man at close quarters .           ; ; ;           ; ; ;           ; ; ;         The question again raised by Hayfa about what we can do  from a individualistic perspective:

Every single individual is asset to the community.Firstly i would like to implore the members of the community to wake up from their stupor and realise that Islam is in danger of being hijacked by these rigid  right wing extremist ideologies which have brought nothing but destruction and misery to the average man on the street.

Educate yourself,develop critical thinking,dwell upon the concept of IJTIHAD and then educate your brothers and sisters and try to build a consensus in the community about the evils of these extremist ideologies,BY doing so you are taking the first step on the long pathway to reviving the glory of Islam.      About being a arm chair quarterback my dear friends start by atleast being one.Today the muslims are still snoozing blissfully unaware  and are in a denial mode.   I would encourage every sleeping muslim to wake up and to atleast become an armchair quarterback for a start. and then move onwards

For all those misguided individuals and rightwing fanatics 

So, Morshed, anyone who doesn�t agree with us turns into rightwing fanatics!

The peace treaty of al-Hudaybiyyah is a clear example of this, when the Prophet agreed to every demand his antagonists made on the sole assurance that peace would subsequently prevail.

Have the antagonists detailed any terms of this Great Peace?

The above statement by sign*reader is a blantant false hood.

Really? What do you know about Sign Reader?

Other than the sheer fact that he doesn�t happen to be on the 90 approved list?

The actual facts are as follows.

It would be some miracle to know where you got these facts from?

The apex court had declared as invalid steel mills� transactions on March 26, 2006 by saying that its privatisation was conducted in haste and in a non-transparent manner.

Thank you for these words.

syed123 wrote: For all those misguided individuals and rightwing fanatics  and their followers  i appeal to them to atleast cast a brief  glance at the life of our beloved Prophet Muhammad(PBUH) and borrow some lessons of life from it Throughout the first thirteen years of his Mission, Prophet Muhammad preached in Makkah, but it was in the face of bitter opposition from the Makkans. When it became impossible for him to stay there, he left for Madinah. Wars were waged against him, but he showed his antagonists that the power of peace was far greater than that of war.

well brother syed123 and "most guided" brother,ya you are very right they should work with peace even when beasts kidnapped many sisters(coming out of universities and school)they should even then remains silent ..........their only fault was this that they think sister of every muslim as their own sister....... and when the sisters of so called modern,liberal muslims are kidnapped they must remain silent but they were true muslims(but infact then the so called muslims run to molvis and then they shout for peace and islam bcoz at that time their own home iz burning with fire of so called modernism).

                         as far as Mohammad(SAW)strategy of propagting islam with peace iz concerned then my dear brother go back to history and read there,when Mohammad(SAW) introduced islam muslims were less in numbers,at that time every tribe was non muslims so Allah(SWT)ordered Mohammad to work with peace but when they went to Madina and got their own govt there then they fought for islam and i expect you might have heard about "ghazwaat".but here it was muslim country same like madina and they were having a muslim govt(infact so called).if your intentions was to demolish sacred mosques then why we ppl demanded pakistan hindus can do better than us with mosques?where iz 2 nation theory?mushraff and his murrederor companions and his so called guided and moderate(not fanatics) puted a slape on the face of 2 nations theory but infact cause of pakistan as ppl of pakistan did same with mosques,Quran,hijab and respected daughters of muslim ummah like an every hindu or non muslim can do.

                 well brother tell me onething are you muslim?if you are then from which school of thought do you belong?must be shia i guess???????

syed123 wrote: Gen Pervez Musharaff is not a qadiayani.This is false propaganda and lies being spread by the very same forces who once accused the great poet and thinker Allama Iqbal and also qaid e azam of being a qadiyani. I challenge any body to put forth substantial evidence instead of mouthing falsehoods which is unbecoming of a muslim. According to Khabrain (July 1, 2004) then prime minister-in-waiting Shaukat Aziz said that he was not a Qadiani and all the rumours spread about his being one were false and malicious. He pronounced Al Hamdu Lillah and said that he was a Sunni Muslim and the clerics who instructed him in Islam were still alive and could vouch for his not being a Qadiani. Shaukat Aziz is not the first man who has had to humiliate himself like this. Before him, President Pervez Musharraf also went through the same kind of self-abasement. He had to exclude the Qadianis from his joint electorates, but no one believed him. The more you say you are not a Qadiani the more the fanatics will shout Qadiani. Dozens of politicians and bureaucrats were thus put through the humiliating trial-by-falsehood in the past.

well brother syed123 wht sort of proof u need regarding musharaf and his association wid qadiyaniizm?

i think u r living in pakistan. r u? so u must know all this abt musharaff 's reality.

if u r trying to say that musharaff iz not qadiyani so may be i can believe on u but if u 'll he iz muslim i'll never believe that.

well tell me how can u say that musharaff iznt qadiyani,r u relative of him?and onething more plz dont take name of Iqbal and Mohammad Ali Jinnah with murederror musharaff.as far as iqbal iz concerned he was gr8 man ever subcontinent history known.the ppl like Iqbal use to born once in centuries but ppl like musharaff n mirza ghulaam ahmed  r available (specially now a days )everywhr.anybody can buy them at any price.they can do anything for their self intrest.

a person who attacked on mosque and disgrace the mosque,my knowledgable brother do u think he can be muslim?but i dont think so?

being a muslim do u know abt hurmat of masjid.or shud i tell u?

if anybody disgrace Quran,hijab andsunnat-e-rasool wht do u think can he be muslim?i dont think so

well for the sake argument if v accept that ghazi and his bro was ronge then u tell me

there iznt any hurmat of masjid?

thereiznt any hurmat of Quran?

there iznt any hurmat of madrasa?

there iznt any hurmat of ppl preservinG Quran and sunnah in their hearts?

there iznt any hurmat of aalims?

there iznt any hurmat of ladies specially the modest one dats wht they all ver?

our religion doesnt allow even to kill the children and women of our enemies then how can v justify killing of our own brothers and sisters being muslim they ver part of us.u ver refering others to consult with prophet's life and now i m refering u go back to Quran n Hadiths and learn wht iz hurmat of Quran,hadiths,hijab,ulmas,madrasaz and sunat-e-rasool and hafizs?

have u seen burnt Quran on ur tv?

a muslim can do this?

have u seen burnt book of hadiths?

any muslim can do this?

have u seen verses of quran under debris?

any muslim can do this?

have u seen the bullets mark on hadiths and verses of Quran written on wall of mosque and jamia hafsa?

muslim can do dat?

have u seen pages of Quran present in brook and rivulet?

any muslim can do that?

all these prove the ppl who participated in this operation along with murederror musharaff and ppl who r favouring this brutal,barbaric,ruthless and inhuman act they all dont have any concern wid islam.

if mushraff iz sincere with pakistan then he must eliminate prostitution and obscenity frmm pakistan bcoz being a knowledgable person u  must know abt qoum-e-loot and u also know that Allah destroyed them just bcoz of their obscenity.now may there iz turn of us if v wont change us.Allah wont 4give 2 things 1-obscenity 2-zulm

so mind it both things r prevailing around us.have u forgotten earthquake hitted islamabad last time but some ppl dint take lesson frm it now ppl r waiting for wht sort of torment.remeber Allah will never let zalim.He 'll ask these money makers by hooks or crooks and chracterless ppl abt each and every drop of blood.

y musharaff killed all muftis or aalims who ver back bone of khatm-e-nabuwwat movement?y musharaff omit seprate place for qadiyaniz frmm registeration form and try to include qadiyaniz with muslims?y musharaff married wid qadiyani womwn?y his son married with a qadiyani too?y musharaff iz placing qadiyaniz everywhr in pakistan?why chairman of pcb iz qadiyani?y media manager of pakistan cricket team iz qadiyani?y our prime minister iz qadiyani?y mushraff expelled 100 of ppl frmm airforce who ver inclined towards islam?y all the ppl who r appearing in media to spoil the whole generation r qadiyaniz?do u know that  knowledgeable brother 95% pakistani actors and actressess of present times r qadiyaniz?somebody told u or not?do u know all army officers and police officers r qadiyaniz?do u know 80% parlimenterians are either qadiyaniz or agha khani or secular?

iznt it making everything clear?

              well do u know the two prime ministers Mohammad Ali durani or wazir-e-ghalat bayaani(info minister) and aftab sherpao(federal minister)who were very active during this brutal operation their wives r running brothel in islamabad?do u know that?why musharaff iz having such chracterless ministers?when mushraff will attack on their brothel?well i tell u never bcoz they are mushraff 's type person they r providing mushraff everything he want.

With respect to the post of Farwa Syeda (((well brother tell me onething are you muslim?if you are then from which school of thought do you belong?must be shia i guess???????)))
 I am a Sunni of the Hanafi maslaq  but i also consider Shias as my brothers in Islam.

I dont even want to consider replying to her ramblings about qadiyanis etc etc which  are all false hoods and dont make any sense .According to her frightening ideology,

1) Shias are not muslims 

2)Any one who disagrees with destructive Right wing  fanatical ideologies is either a qadiyani or a Shia.     

May Allah grant all these misguided  and delusional people the ability to think objectively  and also  o-Allah  save us all from these hateful and destructive thinking and ideologies which are totally  against the teachings of Our beloved Prophet(PBUH) and Islam

Ameen

The Lal masjid incidents resulted in regrettable loss of precious human life and the right wing religious  fanatical leaders and clerics need to be made accountable and brought to justice for their shameful role in this tragic episode.

((The man in the Palestinian street has no qualms about paying the price he has to pay for his freedom. Your neighbours, the Afghans, won�t share your considerations either. The Mesopotamian has also shown to treats his invaders differently)))

Well Mr Sasha Khanzadeh, I think its high time you woke up to the fact that now its the 21st century  not  the good old times of horse riding and sword play and muslims are technologically  far far behind the western powers in matters of defence and warfare.

With respect to the Palestinians,afghanis and the Iraqis they do have qualms about being caught in the crossfire and having had to face miseries and sufferings due to being saddled with either a  ineffective leadership or having short sighted rightwing fanatics as their defenders

Wake up Mr Sasha Khanzadeh and start  analysing the events in their true perspective instead of indulging in empty rhetoric.

Musharaff being a qadyani, is still a question for me? But bro Syed - one plain question - When Pak is an islamic state then why is such difference between the other islamic state i.e Malaysia? OK, If i assume the general as a sunni muslim ruler, then why is that he attacked over a mosque ! over Women and children?   He shud have arrested them. Is to burn Quran an act of a muslim ruler? How can we support such person and his ideologies brother? U speak of peace then why did n't u act peacefully?
What are the steps your president acted upon to stop vulgars and unislamic acts spreading in the society, We know very well how Pure and islamic Pakistan is? I thank Allah SWT that our ancestors did not move there during partition.
Is Islam being implemented today? Pak's constitution is Quran , How well is it followed?

Allah, the Exalted, says that there should have been a group of wise people present among the past generations who called to good and forbade the evil and corruption that took place among them in the land. Let there arise out of you a group of people inviting to all that is good, enjoining righteousness and forbidding evil. And it is they who are the successful. Allah commanded this noble Ummah (followers of Muhammad ) to always have among them those who command the good and forbid the evil. A Hadith says - Verily, whenever a group of people see an evil and they do not change it, it is likely that Allah will cover them with His punishment. So i feel this is the group which invites towards good to the snoozed ummah. As there 's a verse," We wronged them not, but they wronged themselves". This is the fact of people in Pak.

Anyways, i actually wanted a brother to reply u  but unfortunately he did not turn up because of few reasons. It would have been a very very intresting one.

I request all the members participating in this thread not to attack personally and develop hatred towards each other. Lets just express our views and continue the discussions.

Wake up Mr Sasha Khanzadeh and start analysing the events in their true perspective instead of indulging in empty rhetoric.

My Grand Master of the only True Perspective in this world!

It�s the day of great delight for me, being addressed by my name. And, you do that only when you are a bit lost for words and have to use some, almost like that soft putty, we use for filling the cavities in some aging wood.