Quite Sad...Warning if you are a "rational" parent this may be disturbing. BTW this was taken off by PMW [Palestinian Media Watch] not any other sites.

http://www.pmw.org.il/Bulletins_may2007.htm#b060507 - http://www.pmw.org.il/Bulletins_may2007.htm#b060507

Those who made this I am ashamed they are even called Muslims......I now know why I don't support the current Palestinian regime.

Israfil

Both your title and comments got my attention but when I red the Micky Mouse Palestinian version, I really found it to the point and sound. Thanks for the script writer, producer and everyone who contributed to that piece. We need more of them in time of media war and identity crisis. 

Instead of disowning Palestinians why don't consider the whole stuff as their God given freedom of speech not like that David Latterman/John Stewart Jews who preach hate to Americans every nite. Or by saying that is real self defeatism or cowardness. OK, if that is the case, Why don't you consider they spoke with the naked truth.

Jewish is illegimate regime planted in the heart of Ummah and we need to remove them by all means necessary.

Politcally correct terms says, Muslims hate Chrisitans/Jewish by virtue of their insult on Allah by saying Allah has son or they are chosen people and rest are their God given servants.

To my understanding, Islam condone the protection of Christian/Jewish minorities lives/properties as long as they abide Islamic rule. Moreover, Muslims can have good relation (Trade, Politcs, good neighborhood, dawa) with Christians/Jews who don't fight, oppress, or evict muslims from their homeland not like current zionist Jew and its allies did in Palestine, Iraq, Afghanistan etc.

So man, don't feel ashamed by hearing what Quran says. This politcal incorrect kills the foundation of Islam.  This so called HATE stuff is nothing but true peace of Islam. Call theif theif and killer murderer. Jewish are corrupt in nature and virtue killers among humanity. See what they did to American Christians and Western white poor slaves. They twisted and lied about the remaining of their religion. Now they want to do same to our religion by sitting on grand mufti chair. Soon the zionist will try to label Quran as hate literature. Hence prohibit to cite from it or mention what they did to humanity.......if they can!!

Brother, we have to work hard to save this wasted humanity from hell fire. We should save America from its Kufr and social ills by calling them to the word of towhid. We should teach American society that they need Islam not fake mosaic Jewish lies. We need to tell them only Islam can save them from their certain destruction. We should use wisdom which is Quran and correct sunnah. With that we can draw a line and clear the foggy air that every Dick/Harry egged out without qualification.

With that clear message, Roman Caesar and Persian King dealt Islam in peace and war. Anything less like this protection of Citizenship, Green Card, Jobs, American way of life!!!, political incorrect, muliticultural drama, social hypocrtite has never protected muslims from west nor conveyed real message of Islam.

May Allah guide us to right path of Islam....Amen

Abu Mujahid

Abu Mujahid and Crass,

Your views are exactly what ignorant people who have no understanding of Islam will look. Not even taking the sociopolitical problems in the Middle East if we are to teach Islam as a religion of peace we must speak out openly against things that tarnish the image of Islam. Of course some of you may say that its their God given right to "free speech" but let me tell you something. No speech is free especially speech which incites violence or teaches children violence. to justify what they do as free speech is exactly the opposite of what we would consider verbal justification. Meaning, we simply cannot justify hate filled speech simply because they are humans and its their God given right.

Any kind of speech whether it comes from a Muslim, Christian, or a Jewish person if their speech transgress moral boundaries (i.e. what is generally accepted as right and wrong action) then through wordly consensus we would all say that it is wrong. Abu Mujahid obviously you cannot tell the difference between opinions and directions. If I say "Abu Mujahid is evil" this is an opinion, or better yet, an assumption since I can safely say i have not met you in real life. But if I say Zaid, we must kill abu Mujahid because he is an evil person. Then we take a new direction in speech because it just went from a harmless opinion to a threat.

What they said in the video was a threat using a neutral entity such as the Mickey Mouse to appeal to small children. to me, any parent who even supports that has to have a defective mentality. It's one thing to hate Israel, but its another thing to plant the seed of hate in small children and convince them that bloodshed is acceptable. When are we going to get to a point where our mind becomes more powerful than an AK-47? By simply rambling on how we Muslims supported Jews in the past is irrelevant now because those times are over and this is a new decade. A new time.

What Zionist did in the past must be remembered, but it must not fuel our minds with hatred and we certainly should not subject our children to our own personal hatred. I definitely stand by my word and I will say that the video promotes "ignorant Islam" not te Islam I practice. as long as Hamas continues to incite violence the world will not view Palestinians as victims. As long as Muslims in that region continue to envoke Allah's wrath in songs and in neutral themes such as cartoons and puppets the world will never view Islam as a religion of peace.

In another thread I commented on what brother andalus said regarding those "brave israelis" who fired on innocent Palestinians I definitely stand by what I said there. Those Palestinians who fight Israelis peacefully without provocation I support them. But I do not support alestinian Muslims who incite violence in our children and convince our children to only find success through violence. It creates a backwards mentality in our youth. Is that the only way we will relieve the Middle East of Zionism, is through violence?

Israfil wrote: Abu Mujahid and Crass, Your views are exactly what ignorant people who have no understanding of Islam will look. Not even taking the sociopolitical problems in the Middle East if we are to teach Islam as a religion of peace we must speak out openly against things that tarnish the image of Islam.

Israfil

Your follow up shows Americanized Islamic version that Jews and its baby zionist has failed to export to muslim world. Moreover, how you balantly disregarded the basic truth that we uphold dear in Quran and sunnah. Good luck for your futile attempt to defend Jews and American aggression on Islamic world in the name of Gandi Style. The good news is no one is buying it. Even muslim Americans don't buy it. So you and likes have a tough task to sell this cheap unislamic commodity. 

Meanwhile, you cried for Islam image as Islam needs makeover and PR campaign. Islam need no image and remaking. Islam need people who tell the word of Allah in its pure and sound. Didn't you know Sahaba and rest of Salaf preached Islam with clearity and sincerity. The Roman/Persian media/military/political machine didn't deter them nor itimidate them in second by telling them who they were. For many real muslims, Islam makeover is self defeatism innovation that feeble minded dangle around in time of need true muslims stand tall without fear. One of third or more of world population are muslims so what world we are talking about.

Israfil,  I give you brotherly advice, learn real Islam before you spew outdated human poor thinking in the name of Islam. I really feel sorry for the sad status for many who want to understand the basic foundation of Islam according to the socio-political dogma dominant they puddle with. How many versus in Quran ask muslims to defend themselves if they were attacked? countless. Its human instinct. Jews are aggressors and need to be kicked out from muslim land by force not by singing we are together.......!!!! if that is hate/backwardness then you need to check out outpatient clinic.

May Allah guide you to right path....Amen

Abu Mujahid

Sign*Reader wrote: Israfil wrote: Quite Sad...Warning if you are a "rational" parent this may be disturbing. BTW this was taken off by PMW [Palestinian Media Watch] not any other sites.   http://www.pmw.org.il/Bulletins_may2007.htm#b060507 - http://www.pmw.org.il/Bulletins_may2007.htm#b060507 Those who made this I am ashamed they are even called Muslims......I now know why I don't support the current Palestinian regime.   : Hey Israfil: You need to chill out! Leave the cousins alone it is none of your cotton picken business what they do over there, how they do it. Don't you know every thing is fair in love and war. They got to do what they got to do! They are fightin the heavy weights of this world even if they can't win they will end up as #2 and that's not bad at all. If you can be in the ring with the champ how can you do wrong as long as you keep fighting. You can't fill their shoes!!!

It pains me to even try to decipher this post since I had a hard time distinguishing whether it was serious or it was a joke. Yes, I agree that I cannot "fill their shoes" but the fact of the matter is, while they are focusing teaching their children how to fight Israel they are losing time in rebuilding their people. A constant focus on the external world while problems with the infrastructure still exist only sustains the problem.

Abu Mujahid wrote: Israfil wrote: Abu Mujahid and Crass, Your views are exactly what ignorant people who have no understanding of Islam will look. Not even taking the sociopolitical problems in the Middle East if we are to teach Islam as a religion of peace we must speak out openly against things that tarnish the image of Islam. Israfil Your follow up shows Americanized Islamic version that Jews and its baby zionist has failed to export to muslim world. Moreover, how you balantly disregarded the basic truth that we uphold dear in Quran and sunnah. Good luck for your futile attempt to defend Jews and American aggression on Islamic world in the name of Gandi Style. The good news is no one is buying it. Even muslim Americans don't buy it. So you and likes have a tough task to sell this cheap unislamic commodity.  Meanwhile, you cried for Islam image as Islam needs makeover and PR campaign. Islam need no image and remaking. Islam need people who tell the word of Allah in its pure and sound. Didn't you know Sahaba and rest of Salaf preached Islam with clearity and sincerity. The Roman/Persian media/military/political machine didn't deter them nor itimidate them in second by telling them who they were. For many real muslims, Islam makeover is self defeatism innovation that feeble minded dangle around in time of need true muslims stand tall without fear. One of third or more of world population are muslims so what world we are talking about. Israfil,  I give you brotherly advice, learn real Islam before you spew outdated human poor thinking in the name of Islam. I really feel sorry for the sad status for many who want to understand the basic foundation of Islam according to the socio-political dogma dominant they puddle with. How many versus in Quran ask muslims to defend themselves if they were attacked? countless. Its human instinct. Jews are aggressors and need to be kicked out from muslim land by force not by singing we are together.......!!!! if that is hate/backwardness then you need to check out outpatient clinic.   May Allah guide you to right path....Amen   Abu Mujahid

So let me get this straight. Because I criticized the Palestinian regime I am not a real Muslim or know Islam? How does the current Palestinian regime and whether I support it or not equates to learning [or even following] true Islam? Because they claim to be muslims therefore I support them? Whenever a regime regardless whether its muslim or not incites violence through small children who have no understanding of the world beyond them it infuriates me. Because we are taking our adult issues and implanting them in children so when they grow up they hate what we couldn't finish. To me the logic of that regime does not exist. They are cowards and they have shown they are cowards because they depend on children to win battles for them. Obviouslt they have given up their ability to use their brains so they think an Ak-47 [Notice they are teaching children the caliber and models of weapons] will solve their problems.

I can't believe you call it "unislamic commodity" because I advocate better alternatives than inciting violence through children? You also say my methods are unislamic because I defer to intellectual ways of solving issues rather than physical? Yes i'm a serious non-muslim on that matter. fortunately for you and those that think on the same line as you can live in the small hole called ignorance while others like myself look for ways to empower others. If you believe my rejection of Palestinian methods of fighting for their homeland [such as creating neutral entities like Mickey Mouse to promote violence] as a non-muslim behavior then I'll gladly take that title. I'd rather live with men than kill them.

Crass,

Arabs, Jews, Blacks and any other ethnic class have people who are promiscuous so, what is your point? Without statistical eveidence (relevant to the subject of course) all the things you are positing here are simple opinions that have no validity in them. Besides, your talking off the point here. The point is the Hamas government had a neutral Disney figure (mind you this is a Western image they are using which is a source of innocence) and using it to teach children how to fight. There is no righteousness in anything if children are being taught at an age of impression to fight. There is no righteousness teaching a child the model of a rifle and the caliber of its bullets. There is no righteousness in convincing a small child (or children) to take the land of Israel back by force.

I don't care what religion you are, that kind of mentality is unacceptable. I empathize with the Palestinian people as far as their frustration is concerned, but at the same time violence is not the way and if you cannot avoid being violent don't bring that to the children. Children do not need to learn how to be violent.

crasss wrote: Israfil wrote: I empathize with the Palestinian people as far as their frustration is concerned, but at the same time violence is not the way and if you cannot avoid being violent don't bring that to the children. Children do not need to learn how to be violent. Everybody educates their children like they want.

True,

Bu that doesn't mean that their education is rational and moral. Frankly, I find the Hamas government a group of men (or just people) mentally defective.

crasss wrote: In order to morally condemn something from an Islamic point of view, you need to derive the fatwa from the recognized teachings, that is, the Quran and the Sunnah.

That's a good point brother.  Do you know of anything from the Qur'an and sunnah that advocates such teachings of hate to children?  I don't know of any hadith where the Prophet taught the sahaba to "hate" anyone.  Think about how the people of At-taif treated the Prophet (s.a.w); do you know what his response was?  He made dua for not against them.   

There is a difference between teaching self-defense and teaching hate.   The Jews (some of them) during the time of the Prophet (a.s.w.s) were pretty much the same as some of them are now.  I don't know of any hadith where the Prophet (s) takes Hasan (r.a), Husayn (r.a), or any child on his lap and tells them when they grow up they're going to kill Jews.

Parents (mothers especially) need to focus on teaching their children Islam.  Tarbiyah starts in the home.  Muslim families are losing more children to kufr, or at best ma'siya, then the filisteneeyeen are losing in their civil war.   

Salaam

crasss wrote: Israfil wrote: Bu that doesn't mean that their education is rational and moral. Frankly, I find the Hamas government a group of men (or just people) mentally defective. In order to morally condemn something from an Islamic point of view, you need to derive the fatwa from the recognized teachings, that is, the Quran and the Sunnah. Why don't you try to refer to the accepted teachings and try to build an argument from there? If your objections can be underpinned in that way, I will accept your moral objections, and I am pretty sure Hamas would too. In the meanwhile, we are slaves to the One God and His rules only, and absolutely free to do what the One God has not forbidden, and so is Hamas.

Crass,

I don't need to argue from an Islamic point of view simply a logical point of view. For me to get into the technicalities of ethical law would be like a Lawyer trying to use legal lingo to prove eating twinkies increases body calories which makes you fat. Simply put, don't eat food that makes you fat! the same can be said about the video of Hamas. If you make songs which glorify hatred then obviously there is something wrong. If you look around the world most children in good environments do not sing songs of weaponry and hatred. Only Hamas does.

Crass, I mean come on its common sense here you don't see anything wrong with a neutral figure such as mickey Mouse being used to coerce children to hate Jews? for a moment let us not even use the pretext of the land being taken away from Arabs and look for a moment. Would you raise your child how to conduct him/herself violently when they come into conflict?

Israfil wrote: crasss wrote: Israfil wrote: I empathize with the Palestinian people as far as their frustration is concerned, but at the same time violence is not the way and if you cannot avoid being violent don't bring that to the children. Children do not need to learn how to be violent. Everybody educates their children like they want. True, Bu that doesn't mean that their education is rational and moral. Frankly, I find the Hamas government a group of men (or just people) mentally defective.

It is expedient for those with inferiority complex syndrome to stand to side with the stronger parties - and chastising the weaker party. It gives them a short burst of satisfaction as the victor which they failed to achieve by the meanest available means.

It is honourable for us to be slain by the smart foes rather than gaining victory by such kind of assistance.

superme wrote: Israfil wrote: crasss wrote: Israfil wrote: I empathize with the Palestinian people as far as their frustration is concerned, but at the same time violence is not the way and if you cannot avoid being violent don't bring that to the children. Children do not need to learn how to be violent. Everybody educates their children like they want. True, Bu that doesn't mean that their education is rational and moral. Frankly, I find the Hamas government a group of men (or just people) mentally defective. It is expedient for those with inferiority complex syndrome to stand to side with the stronger parties - and chastising the weaker party. It gives them a short burst of satisfaction as the victor which they failed to achieve by the meanest available means. It is honourable for us to be slain by the smart foes rather than gaining victory by such kind of assistance.

As in the case of apartheid South Africa our moral compass dictates that we appall the treatment of Palestinians, and we must never give Palestinians a �pass� to behave as they like.  In our faith the end does not justify the means.

crasss wrote: Israfil wrote: I don't need to argue from an Islamic point of view simply a logical point of view. The derivation methods for a fatwa are logical and axiomatically reduce back to the Islamic teachings. Further, the fatwa must have sufficient jima (consensus). Immorality consists, by definition, in a violation of the rules of the One God. Which rule or rules were broken? I don't see how you can qualify the content of the Hamas television program as immoral without a fatwa.

The position I was taking was the non-religious view. Meaning, any human being with rational capacity that looks at the video would hold it as immoral behavior. Crass, you are justifying their behavior by challenging me to present evidence in relation to Islamic law and prove whether they are just or unjust. It's freggin common sense! I assume you don't have children (if you do and support the Hamas video then i'd call you a mentally defective parent) if you did, hypothetically speaking, would you teach your children that kind of behavior?

crasss wrote: Israfil wrote: If you look around the world most children in good environments do not sing songs of weaponry and hatred. I've actually watched a clip from the Hamas http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/122365 - television programme . It is the callers who sing these songs, and not the presentators. You're asking to censure the audience. What point is there in doing that? Israfil wrote: Only Hamas does. I don't know about that. Every country at war publishes propaganda against the enemy, and rallies the population, including the children, to support the war effort. I'd be really interested in hearing a fatwa concerning this issue, and to see a law-based derivation of whether this is moral or immoral.

Obviously your eyes are failing you. Yes the callers were singing the aongs but if you look at the Mickey Mouse imposter and the young girl, their body language obviously show their involvement. The young girl even slightly reprimand one caller for using the word "surrender" in one of his/her songs? I'm asking to censure st**idity, which I'm sure is half the population there.

I can't believe your brain crass. I mean, do you even have an understanding of right and wrong without it being written? What makes any group righteous for teaching their children to watch shows which glorifies hatred through child shows? The whole time the Mickey Mouse is saying "Allah willing, Allah willing" while at the same time saying that they will "take back Palestine." these people are not real muslims in my opinion especially one who advocates violence through children. No wonder the muslims are seen as weak because we expect women and children to fight battles for men. I find it cowardice that Hamas would educate their children in this manner. They are not men in my opinion and if I had the chance, spit on their pitiful flag in front of them. This kind of behavior angers me because I have seen so many kids on the street dead without a chance at life and what Hamas is asking is for these kids to live short lives for what? For some st**id war.

As long as Arabs in that region keep themselves from rebuilding their country and focusing on war the stronger Israel will grow. The Arabs will never get their country back. They might as well get used to being the Israeli armies foot stool.

 How , How, Can you be critical of the Palestinians? I am shocked and hurt and appalled. These people are living under illegal occupation, suffer appalling living conditions, are beaten jailed, raped killed, under the Illegal occupation. When are homes are bulldozed with the residents still inside and the United Nations has files and files of International Human rights violations and a genocide of the Palestinians forgive me if I could care less about cartoons.

I am sorry Perhaps I found the wrong web site..maybe I won't be back I will never be ashamed to be muslim by the actions of an oppressed nation neglected by the world. What else do they have? When you ask a Palestinian he will tell you death is better than living like this.

  Salaam Alaykum,

I have to apologize for my previous post. I have yet to figure out why Palestine is criticised for reacting to oppresion? Do you think that a good Palestinian family would give this to their children. " If a dog is kicked at least it is allowed to bark, we are not even allowed to bark." quote from the documentary of the Jenin massacre by Israel by a Palestinian who spent years in an Israeli jail only to have his home and village obliverated. Many Palestinians are finally getting their message across with film and music. Every Resolution The UN has passed for Palestine the Israelis continue to ignore and massacre them. These children are affected by the oppression regime, military occupation, and are no strangers to rubble,artillery shells, and land mines. Amnesty International is overwhelmed as what it has deemed WAR CRIMES against Palestinians. Allah SWT will soon bring to them peace and the justice they deserve as others have mentioned. Patience, preserverence, and hope. Let us never give up on them as the rest of the world has done. Peacefully Inshallah. They are a warm people with incredible spirit,humor, and the ability to suffer this indignation, with what little honor they have left. The one true Judge Allah SWT will determine the fate of the wicked and those who have gone astray. May Peace be with you soon Palestine forever in my heart.

Masalaam

Tara

Jamal,

When I say I don't support the Palestinians I'm merely stating I don't support their government. their government is about annihilating Israel. Now, from my understanding this regime sound slike they are not about dialogue but rather physical action. Whether the video clip was from an anti-Palestinian site or not is not even the issue. the issue is, the Palestinians have a government that is not about dialogue but rather about violence. Palestinians are frankly not the poorest and the most suffering of all people in the world. I'm not gonna sit here and pity them just because they are Muslim. Frankly I see suffering people everyday in the States. What I don't like are governments that condone violence and Hamas is one of them.

Jamal you may be the one of thousands of Muslims that like to blame everyone accept oneself but I frankly look inside the glass house before i look outside.

 Salaam Alaykum,

"The people of Palestine" are not all extremists. This kind of thinking breeds Islamaphobia. The new regime is desperate to fill the people with hope. Many do not like it but if they were to speak out they would be classified as sympathizers. Why are we harder on ourselves than others suffering around the world? The war in Bosnia, for example, and the genocide there, nobody critcized anyone except the leader of that massacre Milosecvich. That was genocide then and it is no different in Palestine. Ariel Sharon's former deputy stated on more than one occassion "it was his objective to rid the region of Palestinians altogether." Praise Allah this mastermind of evil lies dead or in a coma. Maybe some of you misunderstand me because I live in the west and media commentators here are only allowed to begin filming after the Palestinian's are provoked due to a massive PR campaign by Israel in the United States. There are Jews and Israeli's who condemn the violence inflicted by them on the Palestinian's regularly in local papers in the region as well as The Village Voice a newspaper out of New York. Jews Against The Occupation.  I understand the frustration and yes I agree the behavior of violence in an extremesit way hurts their public opinion and their cause, but what may I ask you suggest they handle the situation? Perhaps launch their own PR campaign that states sorry we are not violent by nature we are just tired of getting killed. 

 Salaam Alaykum,

Again forgive for the comment about the IC. I do love this site and perhaps as a newbie I am a little out of my league here. There is hope and optimism for Palestine. Many courageous filmakers, artists, and poets are winning global awards for their films, music, ect. Perhaps the war will be won Inshallah with no more guns and bombs but these little seeds of peace. Hamas is a force to be reckoned with and yes I agree is self destructive militarily and morally the cartoon was wrong but there is a bigger picture. There are peaceful families living in the region we can never abadon them. They are dying. Yes there are problems all over the world and sometimes you must pick your battles. We can't win this one. If the flegling Islamic ummah thought this way we would not have Islam today. It is not 1400 years ago though so how can we spread the word and open the world's hearts and minds to a nation living in a prison. One person at a time. Peacefully. However if someone came into your home to rob, rape, and steal from your home you would call the police right?  They are calling on us the world and are discouraged because nobody seems to be hearing their cry. Allah SWT hears there cry and doors will open and freedom for Palestine will be heard around the world. I am a hopeless optimist..I hope it happens in my lifetime.  I have seen walls come down before torn apart by the hands of the people oppressed on the other side. In the end as in the case of Qarun the people see the punishment of the oppressor with their own eyes. Never lose hope Palestine...The end of the oppression will end soon.With all my Iman I believe...know call me a fool, I don't care I believe.

Wasalaam

Tara

It's funny when you criticize Hamas people defer to the Palestinian people as if Hamas is a representative of the people. But, perhaps maybe they are, maybe not. They say the people elected them so in respect to this could it be possible that the people believe in what Hamas believe? That is a question for think tanks I suppose. Tara the Israeli government for sure is not about peace, it is about the survival of Israel. However in contrast to this can you prove that Hamas is a peaceful government? If so I would like someone to prove that Hamas is a peaceful government. Not just by what they do for their people but internationally how are they peaceful? I need proofs not people running away from the criticism.

Salaam Alaykum,

I disagree the Isrealis are commiting acts of terrorism documented by Amnesty International and the United Nations. It is safe and fair to say the Israeli's are the terrorists sorry if it offends you it is a documented fact. What part of GENOCIDE did nobody get?

Wasalaam

Tara

Salaam Alaykum,

Yes, the Isreali's do stoop so low as to accuse a nation they are to inflicting genocide on of terrorism. As a people Isreali's are not all bad. Some can not bear the violence inflicted upon their neighbors, you will just not see honest reporting of the conflict in America.

After the Israeli's massacred the Lebanese the media and the world were outraged. The footage was broadcast worldwide and Israel realized it is fighting a war on two fronts 1. Militarily and 2. by spending Billions more in a PR campaign in the West. Western journalists were bullyed by the media companies to stop using words that in context might make them look like the aggressors.

Billions are spent in what and how Americans view Palestine. This series of filters goes as high as CNN to a s low as a forum like this. Israel has a host of watchdog groups that if the stories ever do get out they get sqaushed before the media ever see it. Therefore the objective was to desensitise America from ever realizing how bad the situation is. This cencorship is dangerous. Because technically if the occupation doesn't exist in the American mind, how can people symapathise? When the cameras are turned on AFTER an aggressive attack on Palestinan people on thier own land, they begin rioting and rock throwing and thus the West gets the version of the angry , dangerous , Palestinian. Israel's mission accomplished.

Western reportors are hassled and threatened by the media companies with being fired for ever if to deviate from this system of reporting. Fact.

The best strategy for the Palestinians is not feed that media machine with bad PR and behavior to regain sympathy and help from the International community and stop murdering their muslim brothers an abomination in Islam, or bombing campaigns set at Isreali targets. It makes as much sense as shooting yourself in the foot. I agree brother. May there be Peace upon them and Allahs SWT divine grace.

Wasalaam

Tara

[QUOTE=. Israel may be a terrorist but it is no different than Hamas and other organizations like them.[/QUOTE}

Are you following the official line of US government? How many more stuff you want to tell the world? I'm counting..... 

Abu Mujahid

Salaam Alaykum,

Thank you brother for your kind words and sensibility. I am honoured for your response..I was really believing that no one cared. I felt isolated and alone that No one understands my point. Some want proof? I will not even bother with that because the proof is self evident and some will believe that the current sufferage & oppression is a hoax.  These I say research a little further...Amnestey  International documentation of WAR CRIMES is not proof? Al Jazeera and any other media is a joke at best...but watch a village bulldozed in Jenin with the people still inside..civilians women and children and the atttempted cover up of Jenin..execpt for the courageous filmaker who I belive lost his life to get that film out there and sadly for the Israeli's proved whom he needs proof that they murdered in cold blood and lost that cover up just like the Lebanese massacre. Oh yeah sorry some of you want proof.. perhaps you can't handle it. "It is not the lie that gets you caught, it's the cover up." Al hamduallah they always do. I pray in my duas the Isreali's will stop the slaughter and genocide, because Allah is merciful and compasionate, but swift in justice...again poor Qarun he thought his riches will save him and he could slaughter the people. Sadly for him Allah's SWT punishment took time but reminded the people do not lust and wonder how long the oppressor will last and they saw his fate and realized the wrath of Allah when his believers are suffering.

Shukran Abu,

Wasalaam Tara

Salaamu Alaykum,

I agree with you Sister Tara, and thank you for your bravery and clarity.  Jazzakee Allah Khayr!

As the Israeli soldier holds down a boy by his throat beating him in his home after breaking in with five of his comrades in full military outfits, the mother cries out, "Please stop!  Please, he has stayed home and done nothing wrong." 

The soldiers hit her and shove her to the ground.  They broke the door.  Now they break the walls, the dishes, and spread mud all over.  They threaten all in the home.  They drag the boy out, who won't be seen or heard from for months. His family doesn't know if he is alive or dead.

A child cowered in the corner, a little girl of 7, hiding from the screaming and threats of the angry soldiers.

She wakes up each night crying with fear.  What can her mama say?

"Come child.  Don't worry!  Don't fret!  We will beat those damn Jews yet!  They won't come again.  We will be their end."

Or maybe she should just say, "Now, now honey.  As long as we fast and pray, it doesn't matter if the Jewish army comes and breaks our home and takes us away to jail with no charges since there was no crime but being Phalasteenee in Phalasteen.

It's okay.  We should just submit to the Israeli army quietly.  Why listen to the Holy Quran which says to defend ourselves?  Posh and nonsense.  Let's just quietly die like good Phalasteenee."

Israfil, You said that you don't have to care about the Phalasteenee because they are Muslim, or call themselves Muslim.  Oh, Wait.  You did say Hamas.  Let's be clear.  Hamas is made up of Phalasteenee children who saw their older brothers, fathers, sisters and mothers abused and murdered by the Israeli Occupiers.  They are Phalasteenee. 

Some submit.  Some are spies for the Israelis.  Some Fight.

A muslim's OBLIGATION is to defend her home, her family, her honor.  Allah, The Most Powerful, commands us not to cower in the corner and die helplessly when we can fight oppression.

I am sick of you dogging my husband's people and my children's people.  You drove Mishmish off.  Stop it.  Get off this subject.  Go join an anti Muslim site and brag with them how great you are.  But I know you won't.  You will keep going at the Phalasteenee people pointing out any imperfections you find and ignoring the truth of their situation and the truth of their humanity.

I am sick of you driving good Muslims from this site.   I don't want to hear anything you have to say because it is twisted. 

I agree with Sister Tara and Brother Sign*Reader.  As a Muslim Mom of Phalasteenee/American kids, i have confronted these issues personally.  There used to be a song that degraded the Jews as a religion and a people.  I changed the words and taught those to my kids.  I wouldn't like my kids to be listening to this.  But I wouldn't want them to feel ashamed of being Phalasteenee either because it is a great thing for them to be, an honorable thing.

The bottom line is that I can refer anyone to Daniel, a jew who immigrated to Israel as a teenager with his family and lives there with his family.  Look under the middle east on this forum.  He saliently points out that the Israeli schools teach the dehumanization of Phalasteenee as a matter of policy.  They have degrading songs, pictures and stories.  Those stories are not front page, U Tube videos because they aren't allowed out of the country. 

So anyone who cares about the truth needs to just open their eyes, and please ignore any posts Israfil makes about Phalasteen.  The fact that they are being oppressed by guns and weapons and power given to Israel by our country doesn't impress him at all.  He is not going to get it, and he is mad the way that Arabs treated him at the mosque, so he is getting his revenge by tearing the oppressed Phalasteen people apart on this web site every chance he gets.

Salaamu Alaykum

First off.

I do care about the people that are being tortured and murdered. I do not care about those individuals that are violent. Herjiad little do you know (or act like you dont) that violence begets violence and I don't think the making a group to fight Israel is the key. Tactically its not even close to being a smart plan. Number one Israel is supported by the United States. Number two Israel has a license to do whatever because it has that support. Number three their weapons are more advanced. Number four with the aspects of the above three Israel overall will dominate the Palestinians. What's the next phase? You can either fight them and lose or find an alternative to live with your enemy.

Herjihad you don't live there currently so you really can't say what is going on. As for my criticism I'm equal when it comes to both. If you remember (or not) there was a brother (a moderator) who posted a link about some drunk Israeli kids making derogatory slurs at the camera man calling him various names. I commented on that and called how cowardly they were regardless whether they were drunk or not.

Ok, I'll give you in the fact that Hamas may be the composition of people who have lost family to violence but let me ask you this? Of all their hate and anger what have they accomplished? Do they do their families justice by losing their lives to a cause of fury? This war is not abot who is right and wrong its about hatred and anger and pain. This is what I refer to when I say I don't support the Palestinians (i.e. their government). Like yourself I have Palestinian friends who are opposite. Oh, and let me remind you that they too were in Hamas and had discussed how it is there and very much like how we discuss it here and not very much like what people say here.

Herjihad its sad that you would consider me non-Muslim in the sense of asking me to join an anti-muslim website simply because I have an opinion. Why would you do that? I have an opinion and I'm strong opinionated. If people are weak minded to not defend themselves then that is their choice to be offended by their opinion. All I ask was what has Hamas done internationally that was positive. I see nothing good coming to violence and frankly I don't think propaganda on both sides of the fence is beneficial.

The Jews, like the Palestinians, are staunch in their position on who is right and who is wrong. What do we know besides reading what we read in our local news papaers of listening to loved ones who lived there? We all have an opinion on the matter but I believe that we should look at both sides of the spectrum not just one side. It's easy to talk about children being beat to gain the sympathy of others and in that respect you have gaine dmy sympathy...but....what about that young man in his early 20's with a bomb strapped to himself containing ball bearings to create extra damage and casualties blows himself up killing not only men and women but children and even animals?

What has this individual accomplished? What has he done to bring justice to his country? Yes he fights but has he won his own battle? How is this real Islam? How is it Allah's (or YHVH) will to coerce children to join Hamas (or any group even Israeli army) to take another human beings life?

 SalaamAlaykum ,

HerJihad does not have to go to Palestine,with all due respect sir to feel compassion in her heart as a mother. To have your child ..a mother's worse scenario torn apart ,shot, and babies murdered. To feel empathy for a people. When a mother gives birth and her baby dies at a Isreali checkpoint because her papers do not on that day or if he feels like it to let her cross to get to the hospital. Does not mean we have to visit the occcupied terroritories to feel especially in her case as a mother to feel empathy and say All Praise to Allah this was not my child, but ache in her heart for the murdered children in this GENOCIDE.  I am new here..funny my nickname is mishmish herjihad it means apricot. Not here my friend in new york calls me mishmish. It was his cats name when he was a child.  I am curious why did mishmish leve the IC.  

Tara I understand that thee are innocents being lost in the Palestine areas and that is unfortunate. However, all I'm saying Tara is that we have to look at both sides of the spectrum here. Yes, there are children being lost in Palestine but also children lost in Israel. Rage and anger is driving human families to destroy each other and it seems that there is no solution. For the most part a lot of us get our information from our respective media coverages and this is why I mentioned that people have to physically be there to get the facts. Yes we can get information otherwise but sometimes the opinions of families (along with the media coverage ) can skew the images of what is going on.

If we are physically there we can see for ourselves, but of course we comne to the thought that what if we skew the truth as well? Who knows? That is why its important to take both sides. Yes one side is at a disadvantage which is Palestine and the other side with the advantage is Israel. However, I do not believe rage and anger in response to the death of babies is the solution to a complex problem. Again, my main criticism is for their government which is Hamas. What have they done to support their people? Aside from their previous past of killing their enemy what have they done? Like I said previous tatically its not smart to go against Israel point blank and I think any military commander would tell you this. Their enemy (Israel) has infiltrated their system and have convinced others that their cause is bad.

Israel not only has more land but more weapons and more power. The Palestinians are definitely at a great advantage so what do you do? Do you continue to fight and pray that God will hear you? Or, do you choose another alternative to the fighting? Again, we can talk about the murder of children all day and it still will not change the situation. The Palestinians are not special in this respect. Just recently we arrested a mother who was a drug user (methamphetamine and cocaine) who put her baby in a microwave because according to her, the baby was "crying too much." Just before that, speaking of occupation there is a local gang a quarter mile where I am stationed that murder, yes, murders middle school kids for wearing the wrong color.

So if you wanna talk about the murder of children and innocents I can talk all day about that, so, what do we do? Well, I fight it. We have gang injunctions we educate kids and give them resources. We educate the parents on gangs and services in their community. It's easy for us in law enforcement and the military to simply go in there and annihilate the gangs with force if we wanted to. However, that is not law enforcement that is extermination even war has manners.

Similarly the Hamas government (or whatever government after them) has to start with the people. Focus on their direct needs such as the physiological needs such as food and water. Then expand from there such as shelter. Ask for loans from other countries to build their infrastructure put attacking Israel (and its occupation) aside. Work with what you have. Yes its easy for me to say this because I am not there but its easier than feeding into the "but the babies are dying" mentality because that only feeds into depression and anger. Hell, humans around the globe are being oppressed everyday. What about Africans? What about Sudan? Women being raped everyday. Children being born into a poor world. I even had one African mother very recently who told me that when she had her 2 year-old daughter, she wanted to throw her in a river because she was the product of a rape and also because she was poor.

She somehow made her way out her to the States (I didn't ask her how she came here) but has her own business and is doing well for herself. So, in the darkness there is hope but we have to come up with solutions. Now is the time to talk about solutions not who is dying more in each others country.

 Salaam Alaykum,

You are very passionate to the plight of the Israeli children's death but have contradicted by saying the ill equipped army cannot compare to the death toll of Palestinian children. I am confused. Some still need proof in this day and age that there is not ethnic cleansing of Palestine? Then read "The Ethnic Cleansing of Palestine." No bullets or bombs..just a book. Published by http://www.oneworldpublications - www.oneworldpublications   Quote's from readers 1. 'If there is to be real peace in Palestine/Israel, the moral vigour and intellectual clarity of "The Ethnic Cleansing of Palestine will have been a major contribitor to it. 2. "Illan Pappe has written an extraordinary book that is of profound relevance to the past, present, and future of Israel/Palestinians relations' Richard Falk Professor of International Law, Princeton University. 3. 'Biblical moral clarity and humaneness' Walid Khalidi Center for Middle Eastern Studies, Harvard University. More proof watch the dvd "Peace,Propaganda, and the Promised Land"  Perhaps the documentary of the Jenin massacre and the Israeli coverup titled "Jenin" available at http://www.AFD.com - www.AFD.com  Brother please the proof is overwhelming and the world is aware. I hope you can think outside the box on this one. The Israeli's are war criminals not the other way around. I interpet you feel sensitivity to the Israel struggle and that struggle is a fake one. Don't let them fool you brother.

Wasalaam

Tara

 There is violence here and all across the globe but Palestine is our holy land and the ummah has a duty to protect our interest there. This is not save the whales my friend. The only thing Africa and Palestine have in common is Poverty and Aparthied. At least Millions of aid and worldwide money goes to Africa..the Palestinians are are swept under the rug. Nelson Mandela as you know once political prisoner then President of the Nation. Ironic...What if sir Israfil one day it is a Palestinian?

Wasalaam

Tara

Its quite easy to get lost in ones passion by ignorantly commenting on the wrong thing. If I had long hair I'd be pulling it out. Sigh (or Sign Reader) as far as your concern and others I'm not even Muslim so save the incognito speech about me being "new to Islam."

Tara,

the first few sentences didn't make sense to me. Where did I say that I am passionate about Israeli children? Can you copy and paste it for me or was that something you simply drew out of my post? My position was, where is the solution to the situation? It is quite easy to go and recycle the suffering of others but what is the solution? Yes so many Muslims talk big about the suffering of a people but no solution, oh wait, let me see its the colonial chain that is holding you back? If you all cheer for their defiqance through violence then that is fine because its what you believe. I surely don't.

Israfil wrote: . What about Africans? What about Sudan? Women being raped everyday. .

 Israfil.

Who said Sudanese women are being raped everyday by Sudan Army? You must check your facts before your claim become another  hearsay.

I have been in Darfur, Khartoum, Port Sudan, Jubba, Malakal, Wad Madani, Kassala, Sinnar, Obied and rest of Sudan for many times. Jewish Media and its American child recipient claims are far from truth. You can say what about Arab media?! They are no better as all their sources are always from Reuters, AFP and AP a Jewish Cooperate media Global Monsters.

What happen there is neither genocide as Bush cried out without shame nor holucust. if there is any it should be on Palestinians. Darfur people was caught between a warring parties: Legitmate governmet forces and outlaws bandit: American/British lackeys who want to destroy the unity of Sudan territorial integrity by voilence means. The result is this 200K etc exodus which west want to manupilate for regime change in Khartoum.

Hope you read world politics with wide open eyes.

Abu Mujahid

 Salaam Alaykum,

I don't know brother Israfil but instead of learning or at least trying to understand the factual representation...you get and still ask for more leaves me confused. The subject of why Palestine won't win and you bring up babies die everday, a mother microwaved her baby, and millions of babies die in Africa. The factual representation that Palestine will not succeed is were in your head? We have presented facts now bring yours to the table or I might be under the impression that you see this as a won lose thing. Thats the thinking that gets Israel/Palestine into lack of dialouge...and us into disagreements. The above mentioned material have won awards worldwide and this book was published by the Oxford press with scores of International Laywers and Middle East scholars. The history is fascinating and surprising how it all came to be an ethnic cleansing. Remember this is our holy land our prophet Peace Be Unto him traveled there by a miracle of Allah SAW. He visited all of the holiest sight in one night and this masjid was one of them. This is our holy land and if you don't want to face the facts that there will be nothing left of the Palestinan people from the current ethnic cleansing than sir you might want to dig deeper into the facts. The prophet Pece Be Unto Him said don't waste your time trying to to teach he who has no interest in knowledge. It is senseless. You have your beliefs and thats fine with me.

Wasalaam

Tara

 Salaam Alaykum,

I was never under the impression you were are muslim. As you stated I am not even muslim...therefore you understand that because you are not , now you have been revealed a truth from many muslims. that many people of the book or whatever you believe, now may understand. My impression that you were a non muslim was very strong I was just confused why you chose the Avatar of Allah SAW to represent you on this site? Did you think it was pretty? It is. I wear that Allah pendant around my neck everyday..It is the arabic Allah SAW and it is very special to me. I hope you learned about us here. We are not violent, militant. We are just people.

Masalaam

Tara

Duende your position of my views I totally respect.

I guess my problem here are the conveyence of my words. Let me clarify a few things:

I don't support ANY group that condones violence to prove a point

I don't condone ANY group that uses religion w/violence to promote

I do codone defense

I do condone equal rights

I do condone the right to live and to pursue happiness.

Now if an Israeli soldier is bulldozing a Palestinians house that man/woman or whoever has a right to defend their property especially if the reason is not just. Yes that man or woman has a right to do whatever is necessary to defend their home. But I'm areligious in this respect because this right is extended to all human groups. Let me clarify my position with Hamas clearly:

I do not support them NOT because they're Muslim but because they use excessive aggression  in the past to promote their motives.

Just because they were elected "cleaner" than any U.S presidential election does not mean they are more moral than any U.S elected official. There are ways to convince the general public that a group has their best interest. If you have one pissed off group representing a group of pissed off people which is likely majority of the Palestinians then it becomes obvious who is more likely to win. But this does not mean their motives are moral.

So again let's stop this "Oh Israfil is not a muslim because he doesn't support Palestine crap" I'm not saying you said it Duende because you didn't actually you offered a better opinion so far. What I'm saying is I disagree with Hamas and their position and I do not support them. I don't even support Fatah because in the past they have shown to be corrupt themselves. I only support any idealist who wants change through non-violent means this goes both to Israeli or Palestinian. But to question someones faith simply because they differ in their opinion is st**id way of insulting someone. that is like me calling you st**id for not agreeing with Statistical methodology.

Now that I've cleared this up if my faith is continued to be questioned after this then I'll have to question the intelligence level of individuals here because nowhere in what I've said here is criticizing the people. Now I understand some of you equate Hamas with the people now this is a matter of perception I suppose. I don't see a group as a reflection of millions of people because there is always a percentage that disagrees with the majority. In that respect I hold Hamas to represent the majority. Now even if I criticize the majority group does not mean I criticize the people because frankly, the majority party which is Hamas should rightfully represent the people.

So far, the condition of the people has not changed since they have been in power and grant it, the U.S is biased and will not have dialogue with Hamas which is the U.S. fault and Israel's because they should at least try and make an attempt. But the fact of the matter is this whole situation is complex and until someone steps up and becomes the becon of change we will continue to discuss the suffering of people.

 Salaam alaykum.

Israfil in a recent post on 5 or 6 said "I am not a Muslim" Israfil why would you make a claim this or are people under the impression you are. Did you claim to be a muslim on the IC?.

Tara

Maybe I should get into the habit of spell check, but the problem I have is I type too fast and have long fingers. So I'll keep that in mind, but my English is way better than 99% of the people whose first language is not English and even some of those whose English is their first language. Duende I don't know whether to take the P.S. as a direct insult or some sarcastic remark but whether or not it is sincere is not the point. What this whole subject boils down to is a difference of opinions.

I hold a particular view and everyone else holds a particular view. I think majority of those here are incoherent, but, that is my opinion just like majority of the people may perceive me as one way (or many). They are all views and we all have the right to have them. At the end of the day we are who we are and in some cases people cannot change. So far I have not seen any refutations thus far concerning my view on Hamas. I have one view say Hamas is the people but that does not explain anything. This let's me know people do not know how to make distinctions between minority and majority groups in politics.

Just because you have one group representing the majority does not equate to ALL. So, let me restate again for those of you that don't understand. When I in the past criticized Hamas I didn't criticize ALL Palestinians. It is false to equate one group with every single individual especially when every individual is not physically polled in their opinion of Hamas. Since there are several political groups in contrast to Hamas it lets me know that within the majority there are people with difference of opinions. Perhaps those differences stem from ideals to whatever all what is important here are those differences. So in this respect we need to discern from the minority and the majority.

It's like me talking about republicans. If I criticize the republican party it does not mean I'm attacking all whites (since most whites statistically are republican). I seriously feel like a parrot because in my previous post I stated this ( no matter how imperfectly it was even in my misspellings I was quite coherent more so than most) but I feel as if people still don't understand.

Tell me what does your question mean:

God knows, but maybe you really are for peace?

I don't understand how this has any relevance to my earlier opinion just like I don't understand how me not supporting one political group is relevant to my religious affiliation.

Tara you said:

Israfil in a recent post on 5 or 6 said "I am not a Muslim" Israfil why would you make a claim this or are people under the impression you are. Did you claim to be a Muslim on the IC?.

This is totally false and it let's me know that you read what you want to read instead of reading for comprehension. I did not say I was not Muslim I was merely regurgitating the comments about my faith simply because I share a different opinion. Yes I have an unorthodox way about myself and I'll admit that but I never said I was not Muslim. I think thus far I've established a pretty brutally honest opinion about myself and my views on the world. I may sarcastically consider myself non-Muslim but only for pure sarcasm not sincerity.

 Israfil wrote " I'm not even muslim so save the incognito speech about me being new to Islam" What the hell are you talking about? I could care less..I am not going to bang my head teaching Islam to you. First off, I don't claim to be a scholar, but as far as I know about Islam I believe it is sick and twisted to humiliate your Creator by sarcasticly considiering yourself a non muslim for pure sarcasm. that is hugely offensive and if you are a muslim than you lied in your previous post, and that to me is a kifar of the worst kind. Sorry Israfil, this religion is based on pillars one of which is total belief Allah SAW, and all his messengers and angels..not for "pure sarcasm not sincerity."  Like I said before here is your so called incognito speech about being new to Islam. "I have my beliefs and you have yours" Our prophet Peace Be Unto Him..suggestion on how to deal with the kifar who ask about Islam only to make mockery of your religion.

Bye Bye

 Tara

Duende you said: I apologize I miswrote that it was not you it was Jamal

Tara the video was more like a precursor to the opinion I have of Hamas, whether the video was skewed is a matter of debate. The fact of the matter is prior to the video, they are a dangerous political movement. Now very recently I knw they are willing to talk to Tony Blair (anyone) "as long as they are not the occupier" (See Ref: http://www.jta.org/cgi-bin/iowa/breaking/103189.html - http://www.jta.org/cgi-bin/iowa/breaking/103189.html )

We will see how that pans out.

As for Harakat al-Muqawama al-Islamiyya or (Islamic Resistance Movement- which is arguably an acronym for Hamas) the main issue aside from the video posted I had with the was that in 1988 in their charter their main goal is the destruction of Israel however after reading their charter there were certain things I disagree with as a matter of opinion for instance the following:

Article Thirteen: Peaceful Solutions, [Peace] Initiatives and International Conferences
[Peace] initiatives, the so-called peaceful solutions, and the international conferences to resolve the Palestinian problem, are all contrary to the beliefs of the Islamic Resistance Movement. For renouncing any part of Palestine means renouncing part of the religion; the nationalism of the Islamic Resistance Movement is part of its faith, the movement educates its members to adhere to its principles and to raise the banner of Allah over their homeland as they fight their Jihad: �Allah is the all-powerful, but most people are not aware.� From time to time a clamoring is voiced, to hold an International Conference in search for a solution to the problem. Some accept the idea, others reject it, for one reason or another, demanding the implementation of this or that condition, as a prerequisite for agreeing to convene the Conference or for participating in it. But the Islamic Resistance Movement, which is aware of the [prospective] parties to this conference, and of their past and present positions towards the problems of the Muslims, does not believe that those conferences are capable of responding to demands, or of restoring rights or doing justice to the oppressed. Those conferences are no more than a means to appoint the nonbelievers as arbitrators in the lands of Islam. Since when did the Unbelievers do justice to the Believers? �And the Jews will not be pleased with thee, nor will the Christians, till thou follow their creed. Say: Lo! the guidance of Allah [himself] is the Guidance. And if you should follow their desires after the knowledge which has come unto thee, then you would have from Allah no protecting friend nor helper.� Sura 2 (the Cow), verse 120 There is no solution to the Palestinian problem except by Jihad. The initiatives, proposals and International Conferences are but a waste of time, an exercise in futility. The Palestinian people are too noble to have their future, their right and their destiny submitted to a vain game. As the hadith has it: �The people of Syria are Allah�s whip on this land; He takes revenge by their intermediary from whoever he wished among his worshipers. The Hypocrites among them are forbidden from vanquishing the true believers, and they will die in anxiety and sorrow.� (Told by Tabarani, who is traceable in ascending order of traditionaries to Muhammad, and by Ahmed whose chain of transmission is incomplete. But it is bound to be a true hadith, for both story tellers are reliable. Allah knows best.) See Reference: http://www.palestinecenter.org/cpap/documents/charter.html - http://www.palestinecenter.org/cpap/documents/charter.html

Also in the platform of their movement their creed states:

Israel will rise and will remain erect until Islam eliminates it as it had eliminated its predecessors See Ref:http://www.palestinecenter.org/cpap/documents/charter.ht ml

Now I recognize that they have last year as an elected group had taken the blanket statement out but of course in replacement of that had taken a softer approach (which may in subtle fashion still reflect their main goal) in their manifesto : The manifesto makes no mention of the destruction of the Jewish state and instead takes a more ambiguous position by saying that Hamas had decided to compete in the elections because it would contribute to "the establishment of an independent state whose capital is Jerusalem". See Ref: http://www.guardian.co.uk/israel/Story/0,2763,1684472,00.html - http://www.guardian.co.uk/israel/Story/0,2763,1684472,00.htm l

Now examining the charter for the Islamic Resistance Movement their original purpose is excessive. It goes from taking one's homeland to the annihilation of a group. Now if their original position was "we wish to take the land back from the occupiers" that is more reasonable approach to me since, they have a legitimate right to take their lang back but what becomes a problem is when they ask for the destruction of a whole people.

Tara

Take my statements how you want to because I don't want to keep explaining myself over and over and over. It's obvious you don't get it. When I say things like "I am not Muslim anyway" I'm pretty much mocking the individuals on this forum who, by the way, have never met in me in "real life" outside the web  who have called me a non-muslim before. I'm merely mocking the st**idity generated by premature judgements. Muslims here use sarcasm all the time against the Christians here. They mock the Christian beliefs but not so much Jewish (because most Muslims don't know Jewish law because its quite extensive and can hardly be criticized unlike Christianity).

From the emoticon you have used its obvious you do care! lol and by the way, to say "I care less" means to care a little bit which obvious you do care to some extent. Look Tara don't blow a gasket just accept me for how I present myself here like everyone else does. as for the opinion concerning the Mickey Mouse, he is matyred and dead and really there is no point in discussing the issue further. Allow this discussion to die like all others.

Sloppy research? How so?

I don't expect you to offer much except dumb comments anyway. I just cited theie 1988 charter and highlighted their extreme opposition to Israel and called it excessive yet, you offer no refutation.

Israfil wrote: ........................  the video was more like a precursor to the opinion I have of Hamas, whether the video was skewed is a matter of debate. The fact of the matter is prior to the video, they are a dangerous political movement. Now very recently I knw they are willing to talk to Tony Blair (anyone) "as long as they are not the occupier" (See Ref: http://www.jta.org/cgi-bin/iowa/breaking/103189.html - http://www.jta.org/cgi-bin/iowa/breaking/103189.html ) We will see how that pans out. As for Harakat al-Muqawama al-Islamiyya or (Islamic Resistance Movement- which is arguably an acronym for Hamas) the main issue aside from the video posted I had with the was that in 1988 in their charter their main goal is the destruction of Israel however after reading their charter there were certain things I disagree with as a matter of opinion for instance the following: Article Thirteen: Peaceful Solutions, [Peace] Initiatives and International Conferences [Peace] initiatives, the so-called peaceful solutions, and the international conferences to resolve the Palestinian problem, are all contrary to the beliefs of the Islamic Resistance Movement. For renouncing any part of Palestine means renouncing part of the religion; the nationalism of the Islamic Resistance Movement is part of its faith, the movement educates its members to adhere to its principles and to raise the banner of Allah over their homeland as they fight their Jihad: �Allah is the all-powerful, but most people are not aware.� From time to time a clamoring is voiced, to hold an International Conference in search for a solution to the problem. Some accept the idea, others reject it, for one reason or another, demanding the implementation of this or that condition, as a prerequisite for agreeing to convene the Conference or for participating in it. But the Islamic Resistance Movement, which is aware of the [prospective] parties to this conference, and of their past and present positions towards the problems of the Muslims, does not believe that those conferences are capable of responding to demands, or of restoring rights or doing justice to the oppressed. Those conferences are no more than a means to appoint the nonbelievers as arbitrators in the lands of Islam. Since when did the Unbelievers do justice to the Believers? �And the Jews will not be pleased with thee, nor will the Christians, till thou follow their creed. Say: Lo! the guidance of Allah [himself] is the Guidance. And if you should follow their desires after the knowledge which has come unto thee, then you would have from Allah no protecting friend nor helper.� Sura 2 (the Cow), verse 120 There is no solution to the Palestinian problem except by Jihad. The initiatives, proposals and International Conferences are but a waste of time, an exercise in futility. The Palestinian people are too noble to have their future, their right and their destiny submitted to a vain game. As the hadith has it: �The people of Syria are Allah�s whip on this land; He takes revenge by their intermediary from whoever he wished among his worshipers. The Hypocrites among them are forbidden from vanquishing the true believers, and they will die in anxiety and sorrow.� (Told by Tabarani, who is traceable in ascending order of traditionaries to Muhammad, and by Ahmed whose chain of transmission is incomplete. But it is bound to be a true hadith, for both story tellers are reliable. Allah knows best.) See Reference: http://www.palestinecenter.org/cpap/documents/charter.html - http://www.palestinecenter.org/cpap/documents/charter.html Also in the platform of their movement their creed states: Israel will rise and will remain erect until Islam eliminates it as it had eliminated its predecessors See Ref:http://www.palestinecenter.org/cpap/documents/charter.ht ml Now I recognize that they have last year as an elected group had taken the blanket statement out but of course in replacement of that had taken a softer approach (which may in subtle fashion still reflect their main goal) in their manifesto : The manifesto makes no mention of the destruction of the Jewish state and instead takes a more ambiguous position by saying that Hamas had decided to compete in the elections because it would contribute to "the establishment of an independent state whose capital is Jerusalem". See Ref: http://www.guardian.co.uk/israel/Story/0,2763,1684472,00.html - http://www.guardian.co.uk/israel/Story/0,2763,1684472,00.htm l Now examining the charter for the Islamic Resistance Movement their original purpose is excessive. It goes from taking one's homeland to the annihilation of a group. Now if their original position was "we wish to take the land back from the occupiers" that is more reasonable approach to me since, they have a legitimate right to take their lang back but what becomes a problem is when they ask for the destruction of a whole people.

Israfil, I find your reasonings extremely self contradictory, specially when u say that hamas is a dangerous movement, then you criticize their peaceful approaches, then giving up annihilation of israel as opposed to taking Jerusalem as the capital of liberated palestine, bringing in Syria as a saviour and conclude that, zihad is the only option for the liberation of palestine. Thoroughly contradictory...

You seem to have a diferent point, what's that? Can you come to it straight?

Jamal Morelli wrote: Peace, Abu Mujahid, David Letterman was raised Presbyterian. I didn't have nose- plugs or gloves on, so I didn't go through the rest of your post. (Didn't want Bro Israfil to feel he was the only one who cornered the market on sloppy research)

Jamal,

I don't want to spoil the thread. But If answer to you, I will say, what this man is today is more important than what he was yesterday. He was Jew regardless. An old adage was: no matter how much you wash swine, it will be filthy swine forever.  

BTW, next time have a gut/nose plugs to say why u belief this Submitter tafsir over authentic ones. And want to put his empty kufr claims on MP3. Or explain your fake Sufi Music glorification from Casabalanca. Good luck

Abu Mujahid

Let's go down the list here, unfortunately I'm pushed on time so hopefully this will be short.

Jamal you said:

"Sloppy research? How so?"
The below is about the video you posted here under the title "This is
why Palestine will not succeed" with the addition below that says
"Those who made this I am ashamed they are even called
Muslims..." Well, the re-packagers, translators and editors of the
video you presented, Palestine Media Watch and MEMRI aren't
Muslims.

I was referring to the actual makers of the show, not the media that posted the video.

Several commentators, such as CNN's Arabic department, have pointed
out translation errors in the transcript of the April 13 show (2007)
provided by MEMRI. Brian Whitaker, the Middle East editor for the
Guardian newspaper (UK), wrote in a blog for the newspaper that in the
translation of the video, showing Farfur eliciting political comments from
a young girl called "Sanabel", the MEMRI transcript misrepresents the
segment, by attributing a sentence said by Farfur, ("I'll shoot"), to the
child, and ignoring the child's statement ("I'm going to draw a picture").

Ok, I'll accept that perhaps there is a dialetical misrepresentation of reality here, but this still does not explain the overall content of the show. Most media outlets skew information (and truth within this information) to attract the masses to their news. Your above quote explains nothing except the possibility (I should say the existence) of  mistakes within the translation of the show.

and as for the revolting messages of violence that comes off the video
(from a translator of the video)
Now, one might - and I do - object to the politicization of very young
children. Even uncut it is clear that this was the ambition of the original
show. I find that very disturbing of itself.However, it is also clear that the
content is hardly as controversial as some would want.
Nowhere are violence, hate or terrorism extolled in any especially overt
or clear-cut way. The claims otherwise are clearly unsubstantiated -
even the subtitled translation cannot be shown to show that such occur
in the video as presented to YouTube by GIYUS.

The translator obviously does not deny that the show aims to be intentionally and undeniably hostile towards Israel, however, the medthod in the transmission of this hostility contrary to the translator's opinion is controversial. However let me say that the translator committed a logical fallacy (or what I would call a Formal Fallacy) in his statement. How does this objectifiable content not become controversial? Yes there are elements within certain things discussed that one may disagree with, but, in this particular setting how does the teaching of hate (whether direct or indirect) not become controversial? This same criticism is extended to Jewish media, European media and American media. American media teaches children to hate all the time. The media outlets themselves are teaching our children how to conduct themselves. All negative forms of media I outright criticize.

The author in the beginning of his/her statement offers a personal opinion by saying: Now, one might - and I do - object to the politicization of very young
children.

The early politicization of children is in itself controversial (and utterly wrong). That is like teaching your kids to hate republicans because they are pro-choice. Children have no concept of politics or religion so why should the media teach children complex social issues they cannot comprehend? Children at early stages only mimick what they are learning thus, if you teach children that Israel is bad (using media and parental reinforcers) they will listen to their authority i.e. Parental figure and mimick what the Parental figure is teaching. In this case the aim of the show is to indoctrinate children to Hate Israel. No matter the social/political view of parents or society itself, it is of  general opinion that children should only be taught what is necessary for child growth, not complex social issues. The author needs to come to identify what is controversial to him/her and not offer some illogical approach to the issue.

The title and genesis of this post has nothing to do with the Hamas
charter, but after having your little MEMRI Mouse re-packaged video
picked to pieces, you feel it's time to move on to another (easier) subject,
where there is no refutation

The charter I gave was an extension to the current present subject. I was offering supplimental text, in addition to my opinion on why I disagree with Hamas. If I make correlations to that supplimental text and to the current subject that is not "troll" behavior it is simply solidifying personal opinion on the subject matter. The charter basically states its excessive behavior and has encoded this message into television to attract a younger group of people. Why is that? Certain studies have shown that adults generally have a more developed understanding and are less likely to accept what a group says. Children on the other hand are not so fortunate.

Their mental states continually develop but prior to this development are susceptible to external messages that may attract them. If you have environmental forces pushing them to learn hate, they will likely hate without rational thought. Aside from the misinterpretation of whatever words were misinterpreted in the show, ultimately the show was teaching children to hate. Most psyshcologist that I have spoken with in cordial talk have expressed universal outrage of the video clip. So when I list supplimental text I usualy do with the intetion of supporting my argument, not running away from it.

Jamal, again you offer nothing in defense to what you are saying except that the video is possibly skewed. Although earlier I acknowledged your source, it still does not generate a defense to the whole context of the video except that there are some dialectical mistakes. Whether you accept that the video is hostile or not is a matter of personal perception of what the video OUGHT to be not what it actually is.

So now that Farfur has been replaced by his cousin, a Bee, who emphatically states:

"And  in his name we shall take revenge upon the enemies of Allah, the murderers of the prophets [i.e. the Jews], the murderers of innocent children, until Al-Aqsa will be liberated from their filth" http://dearbornunderground.blogspot.com/2007/07/speaking-truth-to-pollen-after-mouse.html - http://dearbornunderground.blogspot.com/2007/07/speaking-tru th-to-pollen-after-mouse.html

Can anyone explain to me how this is normal child rearing? Can you Jamal? I would assume you cannot as in the previous post you have not posted anything.

nu001

I didn't contradict anything. I was responding to several people in one paragraph. My mistake was I didn't single out my responses.

 Normal child rearing for the zionist jews in Israel began in "The Red House"  In this buliding on a cold Wedsnesday afternoon 10 March 1948 group of eleven men, veteran zionist leaders together with  young military Jewish officers, put the final touches on to a plan for the ethnic cleansing of Palestine.

That same evening,military orders were dispatched to the units on the ground to prepare for the systematic expulsion of the Palestinians on the ground from the vast areas of the country. The orders came with detailed description of the methods  to be employed to forcibly evict the people: large scale intimidation; laying siege and bombarding villages and population centers; setting fire to homes, properties, goods; expulsion;demolition , and finally , planting land mines among the rubble to  prevent any expelled inhabitants from returning. Code named PLan D (Dalet) in Hebrew.

There is much more horrible atrocities but this was the first blood rule drew on the Palestinians. I thank the author Illan Poppe and hope he doesn't mind I used the first paragraphs of his book "The Ethnic Cleansing Of Palestine" I am sure the zionist himself will ask for proof again. Ilan Pappe is an Israerli Historian and senior lecturer of Political Science at Haifa University. He is also Academic Director of the Emil Touma Institute for Palestinian Studies, Haifa. Israfil get your head out of the sand..please brother wake up...since your were only kidding when you posted you are a not a muslim.

Tara wrote:  Normal child rearing for the zionist jews in Israel began in "The Red House"  In this buliding on a cold Wedsnesday afternoon 10 March 1948 group of eleven men, veteran zionist leaders together with  young military Jewish officers, put the final touches on to a plan for the ethnic cleansing of Palestine. That same evening,military orders were dispatched to the units on the ground to prepare for the systematic expulsion of the Palestinians on the ground from the vast areas of the country. The orders came with detailed description of the methods  to be employed to forcibly evict the people: large scale intimidation; laying siege and bombarding villages and population centers; setting fire to homes, properties, goods; expulsion;demolition , and finally , planting land mines among the rubble to  prevent any expelled inhabitants from returning. Code named PLan D (Dalet) in Hebrew. There is much more horrible atrocities but this was the first blood rule drew on the Palestinians. I thank the author Illan Poppe and hope he doesn't mind I used the first paragraphs of his book "The Ethnic Cleansing Of Palestine" I am sure the zionist himself will ask for proof again. Ilan Pappe is an Israerli Historian and senior lecturer of Political Science at Haifa University. He is also Academic Director of the Emil Touma Institute for Palestinian Studies, Haifa. Israfil get your head out of the sand..please brother wake up...since your were only kidding when you posted you are a not a muslim.

Tara,

your above post is not relevent. You first begin talking about child rearing then in the last paragraph of your post you talk about a book on "The ethnic cleansing of Palestine." All of which is not related to what I'm saying here. I'm not talking about child rearing specifically I'm talking about what is non-acceptable television. Teaching children complex social political issues is not normal. I gurantee you if I went up to a 12 year old Palestinian kid (assuming the kid can understand english reasonably well) and questioned him/her about their views on Israel I'm sure I would receive an answer why, which, I assume would reflect the views of the parents and/society-obviously.

Now, if I continuously question the child and ask why do you dislike Israel? I'm sure I'd get a basic answer (ex. "The Israeli jews are bad because they stole my people's land). Now I'm sure basic questions of these kind, a typical 12-15 year old Palestinian kid can answer. However, true formulations of opinions aren't developed simply because of just the effect (i.e. Jews stole the land) they are developed through cause and effect. So if I rephrase my previous question (ex. why do you dislike Israel?) and asked "In the year 1947-1948 what decision lead to the war between Arabs and Jews?"

The child may not answer, in fact, I'm willing to bet 95% of kids would not be able to answer this question (the 5% are those who perhaps are exceptionally gifted in their knowledge of history). Of course my answer to them would be On November 29, 1947, the United Nations General Assembly voted 33 to 13, with 10 abstentions, in favor of a Partition Plan that created the State of Israel. The British reliquished their mandate over Palestine in 1948. War broke out between the Arabs and Jews soon after. The 1948 Arab-Israeli War established the state of Israel as an independent state, with the rest of the British mandate of Palestine broken into areas that are controlled by Egypt and trans-Jordan.

What does all this mean?

Normal child growth does not begin with complex social issues, it begins with basic things that develop the child's mind. Why do you think children shows deal with basic math (arithmetic) basic art, and songs? Because of these basic provides for child growth and future learning. Replacing these methods with songs of "taking the Holy land back by Allah's will" are too complex for these kids and does not provide proper growth. Children who support Hamas or any other extremist group has no true understanding of the situation. They are simply following authority figures!

I'm really not concerned with Jewish kids in this case as this subject is not about them. This subject is about teaching children (specifically Palestinian children) hate by attracting them by using positive archetypes (ex. Micky Mouse, Bumble Bee). Ultimately this type of leadership is to blame this is why I named the title as it is stated. Just to make this even America too, has a lot of short comings and is very much responsible for the problems abroad and domestic but like America, we too must be critical of other regimes that use illogical methods as a voice in the world.

 Salaam Alaykum,

With all do respect, your post, in my opinion is overloaded with jargon and irelevant crap. I like to keep my posts simple so "like even a child can understand it." I was merely being sarcastic you could say when I went off the topic, like for example when you did to make a point by stating that you are not even a muslim on a previous post. Overloaded statements and almost manifesto long posts have tired me of this topic, so with all due respect I would like to move on...

Wasalaam,

Tara

 The thought process of human beings and their interpretation of words amazes me. For the last time my statement about me not being Muslim was sarcastic yes and mocking but in no way related to the crap you wrote. It was totally irrelevent and made no sense to even post it. Overloaded, maybe. Overdone? perhaps. But at least I gave you the respect of an explanation. Most individuals that come here do what they call "drive by post." Look at it this way, if I didn't respect you to give you my explanation my post would be two sentences long. It looks like its going to have to be that way.

 salaam alaykum,

Thank God Masha Allah Israfil....you finally got it. Overloaded crap.

Wasalaam,

Tara

 Salaam Alaykum,

 Sorry Brother Israfil for the mean spirited post. This is not how I wish to represent my frustrations and devalue your opinions. I as a muslim have a responsobility and that is to treat others with respect. We as muslims are responsibile for our behavior and act as example of the faith, which is not slandering and backbiting. Please accept my sincere apologies.

Wasalaam

Tara

I have to admit that I did not read all of the posts in between the topic starting post and the current posts (it's soooo long) but in regards to the original post:

When the media wishes to show us a video from the Middle East the interpretation is done by the MEMRI which frequently misinterprets the videos either intentionally or unintentionally. I think it's important to keep this in mind before we swallow what they're trying to feed us. This story below shows the misinterpretations of the video in question:

Nichole,

Thank You for the translations and clearing up some of the miscommunication. when I posted the link I just used the video to suppliment my views on the Palestinian leadership not necessarily the struggle of the Palestinians themselves. Now, grant it, I'm sure you have Israeli's such as the MMERI and the PMW who love to analyze Palestinian media and issolate anything anti-Jewish. all these things I can certainly acknowledge and accept that, they will go to the depths to taint the image of the Palestinians.

HOWEVER.....Knowing this, it is up to the current Palestinian leadership to not play into the hands of the Israeli government by having children television shows such as the one we are discussing. It is not normal for children to watch "child based" television that discuss complex issues. My secondary point was, even if after acknowledging that there are intentional mistranslations in the video it still shows the true intentions of the current government which is to teach children about raising up against Israel and matyrdom. These are complex issues for children

. Biologically speaking our frontal lobe (which is the center of our working memory loical faculties and the organization of short/long term memories) this are adoes not stop growing until we reach our 30's. For children develop their logical faculties they need to have proper learning (which does not entail violence). This was my point.

I couldn't agree more Israfil. It's not appropriate subject matter for children through tv. But it is appropriate, if discussed in the correct manner, in the home. For example, the Prophet (SAW) used to shoot arrows with the children and one of the Companions' (may Allah be pleased with them all) used to stick his finger in his father's wound that he aquired in jihad.

While, I don't think cartoons are the correct place for children to learn of such things I do think they are detrimental for children to learn of as the children in the Prophet's (SAW) time grew up around the culture of Jihad and that was the best generation and we should seek to emulate that.

 Salaam Alaykum,

Masha Allah for your extraordinary effort to explain the "Mickey Mouse" interpertation..to the non arabic speaker; and how the "process" caused such a a row. I was confused and your explanaition and evidence , as well as unbiased facts, clarified much confusion.

Wasalaam,

Tara

Wa'alaikum Salaam,

You're very welcome!!!

Esto es una carta de Amnistia internacional para que la firmeis:
javascript:%20void%280%29 - http://www.es.amnesty.org/actua/acciones/territorios-palestinos-ocupados-continua-el-drama-de-la-poblacion-civil-palestina /