Mohamed post dated Christ and the original christian teachings on the trinitarian God.This would have seemingly presented him with the perfect opportunity through enlightenment reflection and prayer to properly address the issue of the Trinity dis-proving it once and for all to Muslims and Christians alike.

Seemingly he has failed in his endeavours, what do you believe to be the root cause of this failure, was it due to his human limitations that restrained him from a genuine understanding of the "Christian" concept of trinity thus leading to his failue to provide the necessary enlightenment to the Christians of his day and ours (and if so are we to assume that it is thus gods will that the concept of Trinity lives in the hearts of people to this day).   

Assalamu'Alaikum,

How could there be failure when the Quran speaks on these issues and it was Prophet Muhamaads(pbuh) responsibility as messanger to ensure that the message was being taught, memorized, and recorded....Allah(swt) is the one that sent the message and was taught to Prophet Muhamaad(pbuh) by Angel Jibreel to say what you've said is to say Allah(Swt) makes mistakes....and that is Shirk at the highest level.

7672171 wrote: Mohamed (s)post dated Christ and the original christian teachings on the trinitarian God.

Try rephrasing in English!

7672171 wrote:                                        This would have seemingly presented him with the perfect opportunity through enlightenment reflection and prayer to properly address the issue of the Trinity dis-proving it once and for all to Muslims and Christians alike.

It wasn�t Muhammad(s)�s prerogative to disprove Trinity rather Allah�s and which He did in numerous places in Quraan. Muhammad (s)took care of the assignment given by Allah in such flying colors as no other Prophet apostle in history of mankind ever did and what his successors achieved is also unparalleled in the annal of all history.This point alone has filled the hearts of enemies with rancor against legacy but his lovers sing and send salutations day and night no matter where they are on the ground in the sea in the air no matter where. Do you get the picture?

7672171 wrote: Seemingly he has failed in his endeavours, what do you believe to be the root cause of this failure, was it due to his human limitations that restrained him from a genuine understanding of the "Christian" concept of trinity thus leading to his failue to provide the necessary enlightenment to the Christians of his day and ours (and if so are we to assume that it is thus gods will that the concept of Trinity lives in the hearts of people to this day).

It seems you are unaware of Michael Hart's 100 Greats, and Muhammad (s)being the top of his list or studied his Seerah, How would you know the MAN--Tell how old are you ?  so I can recommend appropriately.

As God said �Muhammad (s)was sent as the blessing to all the worlds�  and he did invite all the neighboring heads of the states  including Roman Caesar Heraclius who had been given vision about Muhammad(s) in his dream prior to arrival of emissary with Muhammad's  letter. He knew the truth and was ready to declare Shahada, but  did not, being afraid of the Roman public for his life as they did kill his bishop for accepting Islam. The King of Abyssinia accepted Islam , the Persian Emperor tore up the letter(so was his empire in short order). Rest is history!!

Don't you know  the ass u me routine doesn't work here.

The long and convoluted mythology of Trinitarian practices saning over many millenniums you will discovers a strong affinity of the most Caucasian/Aryan folks with Trinitarian ism. They just won�t let go!, when they do they will find some other ism like socialism, humanism, hinduism,communism,or even Bushism etc

can take the mule or horse to the water but can't make it drink!!

Trinity Combo's::

From the earliest ages, the concept of the Great Goddess was a trinity and the model for all subsequent trinities, female, male or mixed.  Anatolian villages in the 7th millennium B.C. worshipped a Goddess in three aspects � as a young woman, a birth-giving matron, and an old woman.  (See, Merlin Stone, When God Was A Woman at 17). 

This typical Virgin-Mother-Crone combination was Parvati-Durga-Uma (Kali) in India, Ana-Babd-Macha (the Morrigan) in Iceland, or in Greece Hebe-Hera-Hecate, the three Moerae, the three Gorgons, the three Graeae, the three Horae, etc.  Among the Vikins, the threefold Goddess appeared as the Norns; among the Romans, as the Fates or Fortunae; among the Druids, as Diana Triformis.  The Triple Goddess had more than three: she had hundreds of forms.

Pre-Roman Latium worshipped her as the Capitoline Triad under the collective name of Uni, �The One,� a cognate of yoni.  Her three personae were Juventas the Virgin, Juno the Mother, and Menarva or Minerva the wise Crone.  Under the empire, Juventas was ousted to make room for a masculine member of the trinity, Jupiter.  (See, Georges Dumezil, Archaic Roman Religion at 116). 

Some modern scholars refer to the two-female, one-male Capitoline Triad of the later period as �three gods� � as if they might describe a group of two women and one man as �three men.�  (See, J.B. Carter, The Religious Life of Ancient Rome at 26).

 
Cumont says, �Oriental theologians developed the idea that the world forms a trinity; it is three in one and one in three.�  (See, Franz Cumont, Astrology and Religion Among the Greeks and Romans at 69).

The masculine scholar substitutes the neuter �world� for �Goddess,� though they were in a sense synonymous.  It was she who established the Trinitarian form of Creator, Preserver, and Destroyer.  Even though Brahmans evolved a male trinity of Brahma, Vishnu, and Shiva to play these parts, Tantric scriptures insisted that the Triple Goddess had created these three gods in the first place.  (See, Amaury de Riencourt, Sex and Power in History at 167).

Mother of the Greek gods was a trinity composed of Virgin Hebe, Mother Hera, and Crone Hecate; at Stymphalus she was worshipped as Child, Bride, and Widow.  (See, Robert Graves, The Greek Myths at 1, 52).

Each of her personae could be a trinity again, so she could be the Muses or the Ninefold Goddess.  Hecate was called Triformis and shown with three faces, each a lunar phase.  Among the Irish she was the Triple Morrigan, or Morgan, sometimes multiplied into �nine sisters� who kept the Cauldron of Regeneration and ruled the western isle of the dead.  (See, Robert Graves, The White Goddess at 406; Alwyn & Brinely Rees, Celtic Heritage at 193).

The Goddess Triformis ruled heaven as Virgin, earth as Mother, and the underworld as Crone, or Hel, or Queen of the Shades.  This was remembered even in Chaucer�s time, for his Palamon invoked her �Three Forms,� Luna in heaven, Diana on earth, Proserpine in hell.  (See, Chaucer, The Canterbury Tales at 81, 511).  The old name of Sicily, Trinacria, invoked her as a �center of the earth� with three realms.

 
Bardic romances abounded in manifestations of the Triple Goddess.  Wayland the Smith married her, after she first appeared to him as three magic doves.  (See, Thomas Keightley, The World Guide to Gnomes, Fairies, Elves and Other Little People at 215)  King Arthur went to Avalon with her.  The triadic Guinevere was another version of her.  Sir Marhaus (Mars) encountered her as the Three Damosels at their magic fountain: the eldest �threesome winters of age, wearing a garland of gold; the second thirty winters of age, wearing a circlet of gold; the youngest fifteen winters of age, wearing a wreath of flowers.�  (See, Sir Thomas Malory, Le Morte d�Arthur at 1, 115).  Fifteen was the number of the pagan Virgin Kore, the pentacle in the apple.  Mythic virgin mothers, like that of Zoroaster, typically gave birth at the age of fifteen.  Double that was the Mother�s age, double again the age of the Crone.

 
The notion of a trinity appeared during the 14th century B.C., a popular Babylonian trinity was composed of Shamash, Sin, and Ishtar � Sun, Moon, and Star.  In Greece this was repeated as Helios the sun, Selene the Moon, and Aphrodite the star.  A Father-Mother-Son trinity was worshipped at Costopitum as Jupiter Dolichenus, Celestial Brigantia and Salus.  (See, Jack Lindsay, The Origins of Astrology at 112, 328, 375; Dorothy Norman, The Hero at 71).

 Gnostic versions of the trinity followed the Father-Mother-Son patterns of the contemporary east, with the Holy Ghost recognized as a female Sophia, the Dove, worshipped as the Great Goddess in Constantinople, and viewed by most Gnostics as the Shakti of God.  The Christian God was originally modeled on Far-Eastern heaven-fathers such as Brahma and Dyaus Pitar, all of whom needed their female sources of �Power,� or else they could not act.  (See, Heinrich Zimmer, Myths and Symbols in Indian Art and Civilization at 25) 

Therefore, a female member of the triad was essential even to God.  Among Arabian Christians there was apparently a holy trinity of God, Mary, and Jesus, worshipped as an interchangeable replacement for the Egyptian trinity of Osiris, Isis, and Horus.  (See, Geoffrey Ashe, The Virgin at 206).

 During the Christian era, all-male trinities became popular among Germanic tribes.  Woden, Thor, and Saxnot were worshiped together by the Saxons of the 8th and 9th centuries.  Norsemen called them Odin, Tyr, and Frey.  According to a certain fragmentary myth, the Triple Goddess seems to have burned as a witch.  She had to be burned to ashes three times.  Afterward, youth, beauty, and love in the person of Freya departed from Asgard; and there was war in heaven.  (See, Brian Branston, Gods of the North at 112, 213-14).

American currently use Father-Son & Holy Ghost combo right

DavidC wrote: Muhammad did not fail in delivering his message. If you think his mission was to 'disprove' the Trinity, I think you are missing the point entirely. Hadith has evidence that Nestorian and Ebionite Christianities were familiar to Muhammad. These heretical Christianities were persecuted by the mainstream Christians but were protected by Muhammad if they paid a civil tax. Muhammad was more accepting of his Christian neighbors than they were of accepting each other,

Well-said, David.  And the same (emboldened by me) can be said of the Jews in Medinah and nearby areas.

Best Regards

BMZ

Does Islam not believe in predestination, isnt everything written in heaven and unchangeable.

To USA Niqaabi: On the contrary I believe that no failure has occured on Gods part because it is his will entirely that the Christian view of the Trinitarian God flourishes to this day, it was his will that his word spread throughout the known world, it is his will that even those that do not accept his son as lord and saviour know of him and have consciously rejected him (Muslims, Hindus and Jews).

You have rejected him, he who was immaculately conceived (even in your eyes), he who raised the dead cured the ill, expelled demons.

He who was so accurately prophesised of by Isaiah and he who you believe will return to judge the living and the dead.

The WORD of god, one of three parts of the one lord god, his WORD his living and breathing example to humanity.

Disprove the Trinity? Never, for the MAN could barely understand it.

A great law maker and military leader, just like Alexander of Macedon, he also proved the term that Absolute Power is Absolute corruption.

Whisper: Thanks for your contribution.

Sign Reader: Your first comment does not warrant a response, to your second comment, you have simply volunteered an opinion and made no genuine attempt to answer my question. I didnt ask you whether he convinced you, I asked you why he didnt convince me or anyone else outside of the Arab's in his day, oh sorry yes there was that Roman who agreed but then just changed his mind.

David C: David I disagree, how could Mohammad lay claim to being the seal and the greatest among his prophets, was he not sent to convert the wayward Arab's and the Jews and Christians who had become misguided by misinterpreting gods will.

Sign Reader,

On your third comment, I grow tired of re-hashed writings of Jewish academics that have already been adequately addressed and discredited on numerous occasions. The fact is that you dont understand the concept of trinity ( but thats OK, neither did Mohammad).

Whisper: Thanks for your contribution.

Thank you very kind, Sir, now can we all jump to the next semester? yawn . . . yawn . . . snore . . . snore

Wow...five stars from Whisper to an American Christian...who said there is no Santa Claus in Islam? 

My friend, always had the fondest for Christians all my life. I won't bore with the reasons. But I have lead mass at Lahore Cathedral, in my early years.

Whisper wrote: DavidC Senior Member I wish I could put a few more stars there for your brilliant contribution!

Whisper,

If I could I would make DavidC and Servetus have 6 Stars. Their brilliant comments always come at the right time.

The time when we cannot think of a crisp, prompt and short response.

7672171 wrote: Mohamed post dated Christ and the original christian teachings on the trinitarian God.This would have seemingly presented him with the perfect opportunity through enlightenment reflection and prayer to properly address the issue of the Trinity dis-proving it once and for all to Muslims and Christians alike.

1) At the time of the 6th century, Christians were still divided on the issue. Hence, the "original Christian teachings" would not be a single school of thought.

2) The Trinity is an idea that has been established through the use of "implicit" verses that fit the "assumptions" founded by the church fathers who were trying to bring together their various ideas and beliefs about Jesus, his mission, his nature, and the resurrection..

3) The trinity has been disproven for Muslims, as a belief in a trinitarian god and being a Muslim are mutually exclusive.

Seemingly he has failed in his endeavours, what do you believe to be the root cause of this failure, was it due to his human limitations that restrained him from a genuine understanding of the "Christian" concept of trinity thus leading to his failue to provide the necessary enlightenment to the Christians of his day and ours (and if so are we to assume that it is thus gods will that the concept of Trinity lives in the hearts of people to this day).

Complex question, (this means you have buried an unproven assumption in your question), which is a logical fallacy. 

Your statement, "Seemingly he has failed in his endeavours" uses the very ambiguous word, "seemingly", this is pretty much useless unless you can clarify. Also, "failed in his endeavours", please show which endeavours he failed at (specific exmaples). I am not privy to any failure he has made.

Hope this helps.

bmzsp wrote: Their brilliant comments always come at the right time. The time when we cannot think of a crisp, prompt and short response.

I totally agree here.

If I could I would make DavidC and Servetus have 6 Stars.

I didn't dish out just the Five Stars, he has himself been a bit too kind with the helping! You are aik dum fit on both David and Serv -  as we would also say about your Indian story.

To Whisper, 

You posted this:

"My friend, always had the fondest for Christians all my life. I won't bore with the reasons. But I have lead mass at Lahore Cathedral, in my early years."

I am quite curious about your statement here.  I know very well my Catholic religion.  If you lead mass/celebrated mass, that means you had to be a priest, as only a Catholic priest can celebrate mass.  A lector can read scriptures (not the Gospel though), and an extraordinary minister of the Eucharist can help administer Holy Communion to the faithful, but ONLY a priest can "lead mass".  Could you tell me what you meant by this please?  Thank you for your response.

Here's a site regarding Lahore Cathedral in Pakistan which shows how Catholics/Christians have/are suffering too.  God help us all.

http://members4.boardhost.com/acnaus/msg/1143428063.html - http://members4.boardhost.com/acnaus/msg/1143428063.html

"My friend, always had the fondest for Christians all my life. I won't bore with the reasons. But I have lead mass at Lahore Cathedral, in my early years."

I am quite curious about your statement here.  I know very well my Catholic religion.  If you lead mass/celebrated mass, that means you had to be a priest, as only a Catholic priest can celebrate mass.

My friend, it was a simple and an innocent affair. We were invited to visit the Lahore Catherdral, around Christmas, a few decades ago. Somehow, we were delayed and reached there when the service had started.

The Padre asked me if I would lead Psalm 143. I was pleased, nay, flattered. I did and the essence of that experience has remained with me, always.

Must thank you for putting me on the right path. I stand corrected and have withdrawn all my cliams on Pappacy!

Here's a site regarding Lahore Cathedral in Pakistan which shows how Catholics/Christians have/are suffering too.  God help us all.

http://members4.boardhost.com/acnaus/msg/1143428063.html - http://members4.boardhost.com/acnaus/msg/1143428063.html

Thank you for the link.

The situation has turned not just sad but, in some corners, plain simple ugly.

The sub-continentals are by nature exceptionally laid back and peace loving people. On the whole poverty and the daily rigors of life bind them. It hardly matters who worships who or where. I have seen Sikhs, Hindus, Muslims, Christians, Jens, Buddhists and the whole range of religions and cults trying to find whatever joy they can just in each other in communities, which have remained mixed for a few millennia.

You would find Hindus, Sikhs and Christians celebrating Eid with the Muslims and the Muslims joining them, without any reservations, for Divali, Christmas or any other festivals that come there way. Any other forms of entertainment are almost non-existent.

It�s a different situation from the Catholic � Protestant divide that our friends, in the west, tend to hold for an easy reference. Let�s have a very simple example; at Nizam Uddin Aulia (Delhi) you will find more Hindus, Sikhs and Christians offering their tributes than the Muslims.

Mostly, all treat a place of worship as a place for worship.

Or, let me rephrase, mostly they used to treat a place of worship as a place of worship � be it out of respect or, in most cases, just out of fear of annoying some god or deity.

The sub-continent holds an exceptionally deep tradition of saints, scholars and Sufis of all shades and of a good few thousand years of vintage.

Can we be charitable enough to stop and think, just for a few minutes, that how could such a social fabric, woven by strong bonds of village poverty, come to be so torn apart?

Could it be for:

The spate of violence that plagued the Christian community during our visit was sparked by the outrage that spread across the Islamic world at the publication of the cartoons of the Prophet Mohammed.

Unable to express their rage at the West, militant Muslims turned their fire on the local Christian community instead.

The article is great for Fund raising, but it's a bit lacking on some straight simple facts. I know, it will be futile placing the following facts for Patty, but I just need to keep the record straight for the Forum:

Relative newcomers to this part of Asia, the Christians are judged to be guilty by association

The first church was established in the sub-continent in 1533.

Up to 85 percent of the Christian population live in villages,

Where does the rest of the 85% community live?

In palaces vacated by Saddam Hussain?

mostly as �bonded labour� entirely dependent on urban-based landlords

Isn't it the same for the rest of the humanity in the 3rd world? What has a socio-economic ill got to do with any religion?

When job vacancies arise, preference automatically goes to Muslims.

Sorry, absolutely wrong number. Almost all the vacancies go to folks favoured by Mush�s lackeys.

When the Christians do get jobs � mostly as farm labourers, domestic cooks and cleaners and road sweepers � pay is woefully poor.

And, the rest of the population gets some Silver Spoon Service at the local Inter-Continentals?

Child labour is commonplace � parents can�t afford education and daren�t spare them from the workplace for fear of the landlord docking their pay.

This doesn�t apply to the rest of the exploited millions?

Lacking identity cards and the right to vote,

Now, I am forced to call a spade a spade - absolute rubbish. Every single citizen is required BY LAW and is issued a CNIC. I have over 400,000 Masihi followers, in that country, and each one of them holds an Id Card. And, anyone with an Id card can vote.

they have virtually no political representation.

Really? They have special allocation of seats in the National Assembly. But then, perhaps, you are right. Who has any Political Representation in a dictatorship supported by the State Department?

Nor do they have any legitimate access to health care.
My friend, who else does?

Little did we realise it but as we spoke to the congregation, churches elsewhere in the country were being torched by militants.

Would you please tell us How many churches were torched in the history of that country prior to US invasions of Muslim lands?

Whisper wrote:

"My friend, it was a simple and an innocent affair. We were invited to visit the Lahore Catherdral, around Christmas, a few decades ago. Somehow, we were delayed and reached there when the service had started.

The Padre asked me if I would lead Psalm 143. I was pleased, nay, flattered. I did and the essence of that experience has remained with me, always.

Must thank you for putting me on the right path. I stand corrected and have withdrawn all my cliams on Pappacy!"

Thanks so much for your answer, Whisper.  It makes perfect sense, and I must tell you I think it was wonderful that the priest asked you to lead in the recitation of the 143rd Psalm....and equally beautiful that you agreed to do so.  But ME putting YOU on the "right path?"  Sometimes you can really be a hoot, Whisper!!   I have always known that I am not the brightest bulb in the lamp.  it was kind of you to add that sentence though.

As such, I will decline your request to explain the details from the cathedral in Pakistan.  I am definitely not qualified.  Perhaps Servetus or David C. can respond.

God's Peace to You, Whisper.

Thanks so much for your answer, Whisper.  It makes perfect sense, and I must tell you I think it was wonderful that the priest asked you to lead in the recitation of the 143rd Psalm .... and equally beautiful that you agreed to do so. 

Patty, how could I ever refuse such an honour and offered with so much love?

But ME putting YOU on the "right path?"  Sometimes you can really be a hoot, Whisper!! I have always known that I am not the brightest bulb in the lamp.  it was kind of you to add that sentence though.

Feliz Anio Nuevo!

As such, I will decline your request to explain the details from the cathedral in Pakistan. I am definitely not qualified. Perhaps Servetus or David C. can respond.

I will be in Pakistan next week and specially post on this issue.

Paz y luz

I will be in Pakistan next week and specially post on this issue.

Paz y luz

That's wonderful!  I will be waiting to read about your visit there.

Pax Domini

Thanks everyone, for the comments.  DavidC and I are Indian brothers in the same kayak.  Especially when I am behaving myself, I am pleased to be associated with him.

Serv

Serv said,

"Especially when I am behaving myself"

When in the world has that ever happened??  In my wildest dreams I cannot imagine YOU behaving!!!!

Patty

And did I mention that Patty is our ultramontane Pocahontas?

Serv

Servetus wrote: Thanks everyone, for the comments.  DavidC and I are Indian brothers in the same kayak.  Especially when I am behaving myself, I am pleased to be associated with him. Serv

No wonder. Blood is thicker than water. Both of you are brothers of this ex-Indian. When I visit you guys, make sure there is an extra place in the kayak.

BMZ 

That we will do, BMZ.  We shall of course make room for you on our next toe-curling kayak trip southward, over the Niagara Falls.

Here�s a photograph of what to expect:

http://www.niagarafallslive.com/images/copyrightG1962FS1012004www.niagarafallslivecom_small.jpg - http://www.niagarafallslive.com/images/copyrightG1962FS10120 04www.niagarafallslivecom_small.jpg

Your bro,

Serv

Serv,

I thought the first kayak trip would be in smooth waters, where the three brothers could reminisce over soft drinks. Can we do this trip when I am too old and expressionless?  

Your elder bro

BMZ

bmzsp wrote: Serv, I thought the first kayak trip would be in smooth waters, where the three brothers could reminisce over soft drinks. Can we do this trip when I am too old and expressionless?   Your elder bro BMZ

You're all more than welcome to kayak in the waters behind my home. You just have to walk down a path through the woods to get there. Here's a photo I snapped of it in the fall.  (My dog was getting ready to go for a swim.)  Nice calm waters here which lead out to the Atlantic.

I see many kayakers paddling away here.  We have a canoe...so I guess I could be Pocahantas.  My husband is a Passamaquady Indian.

Happy Paddling!

Patty,

That is beautiful.

If and when I retire from work, I would love to come and spend some time  there. According to my dear daughter, I am supposed to continue working, at least, till I am 80.

I would prefer this place to the one picked by Bro Serv, which could be hazardous not only to me but also by way of me becoming a safety hazard to Serv and DavidC.

And, I am definitely not going to stay and go kayaking with Angel, as I don't want the Aussie sharks to chew the kayak also!

Happy kayaking

BMZ 

Dear BMZ,

You're welcome here anytime at all.  I rarely leave....since my great passions are nature and photography, as well as hiking...I have no reason to leave except when I HAVE to travel to a village or town.

(*hint,  don't turn your back on Serv...with the suggestion you go over Niagra Falls in a kayak, I'd be a little bit concerned about my welfare with him if I were you.  I could be wrong, but better safe than sorry.)

Tell your daughter she is quite welcome to come along with you, shucks, bring the whole family!  There's lots of room, and there's a mosque 30 miles away.

God's Peace.

Yes, but I was looking forward to seeing your expression, mate.

But not just any Pocahontas, Patty, our ultramontane (i.e., Roman Catholic) Pocahontas!

I�m always looking out for me no-tee (naughty) frater BMZ, whether he is in front of or behind me.  What I didn�t mention is that (think James Bond and 007 here) I have an extra special kayak which, at the press of a button, becomes air- and water-tight and encapsulated in layers of practically miraculous rubber.  At times, it comes in handy.

Ok, now back to our arguments.  As the expression goes:  have Theology, will argue!

Serv

Serv,

There is one female Native American Saint.....Kateri Tekakwitha who lived from 1656 - 1680.  She was beatified by John Paul II in 1980.  She has a very interesting history.

Now back to the topic at hand!