Please will someone tell me........is there anything in the Quran which offers justification for this senseless act of retrogression?

Women's advocate killed in Afghanistan

ak_m_f wrote: Cassandra wrote: What are they so afraid of??? Look at it and tell me, wouldnt you be afraid of it too?

Mmmm...I'll buy her dinner if she has me for dessert. Great breeding stock! AND she'd have your back in a fight.

Cassandra,

I watched a show once on Soviet Occupied Afghanistan.  The Soviets encouraged the women to get out, and ditch the traditional garb.  Women were wearing short skirts, western styles and going to bars.  (Men, too)  I think many of these men are afraid to see that kind of morality come back to Afghanistan.  They are also afraid of losing control.  When women are educated, they refuse to be locked away and treated like animals.  By preventing the education of girls (And of Boys) they can control the population. 

I mean.  If a woman is illiterate, she can't read the Quran for herself.  Right?  Then she has no idea of the rights and protections that Allah gave her.  So the men can ignore what they don't like and focus on what gives them power.  Heck, many of the Men don't understand the Quran except what the Mullahs teach.  Thus the "government" (ie Taliban) can have control. 

Really its not about religion and belief.  Its about culture and power.  One group wants to control the rest.  Education is a weapon they fear most.  Thus, to fight terrorism, we need to build schools, not bomb people.

.

Angela wrote: I watched a show once on Soviet Occupied Afghanistan.  The Soviets encouraged the women to get out, and ditch the traditional garb.  Women were wearing short skirts, western styles and going to bars.  (Men, too)  I think many of these men are afraid to see that kind of morality come back to Afghanistan.  They are also afraid of losing control.  When women are educated, they refuse to be locked away and treated like animals.  By preventing the education of girls (And of Boys) they can control the population.  I mean.  If a woman is illiterate, she can't read the Quran for herself.  Right?  Then she has no idea of the rights and protections that Allah gave her.

1: What does education have to do with going to Bar and dressing up like a Whore? If anything, drunks and whores are harmful and make people stupid, Not more intellectual!

2: You actually think it's "MORAL" for people to dress like whores and faggots and get drunk ???

3: This "morality" as you call it is not really in the Afghan culture, rather it was brought to Afghanistan by the Communists, and now by the Capitalists/imperialists.

4: Do you think religious people want women to wear proper clothes in order to control them??? What does clothes have to do with education, when in reality slotty women are the stupid ones, while those who dress modestly can concentrate on their education and other useful activities instead of streetwalking.

No one is "afraid" of filthy women we just dont like to see our Muslim brothers and sisters acting like pigs.

5: You say women who stay at home and look after the kids are like ANIMALS???

Ever heard of PIGS??? Did you know that PIGS are animals???

6: And you then say... they want to prevent women from reading the Quran . So far, every single thing you said in your post is against the Quran and against Islamic laws, so who are you trying to fool ?

I mean SERIOSLY, do you think whores read the Quran but religious women who wear Hijab and take care of their kids and dont like cheating on their husband dont ?

And in the end you say:

 "Education is a weapon they fear most."

 So let me get this straight. A woman who dresses up like a whore, goes out of house without her husband's permission and gets into all kinds of filthy places including bars is "educated" ???

The truth is that most Afghans, men or women are not educated due to the Poverty. Even the Taliban wanted to build schools for girls but couldnt because they didnt even have enough money to feed their people. Their children were dying out of starvation and then you have the UN and the US condemning them for not building schools for girls  And then, these same guys bombed Afghanistan, placed sanctions of them, funded the warlords and drug addicts to spread chaos, and finally invaded the county and bombed more people and destroyed more houses...

Then they claimed that Afghan women are not educated because they dont dress like whores.... How on earth does nudity help women's education and intellect??????!?????

The Northern Alliance are losing, even with all the help that the USA gave them. Pakistan has already accepted defeat and sooner or later, the Taliban are going to take back control. What the Northern Alliance and the US are now trying to do is fight a propaganda war, hoping to turn the people against the Taliban in order to recruit more soldiers in their own army and decrease support for the Taliban.

1: What does education have to do with going to Bar and dressing up like a Whore? If anything, drunks and whores are harmful and make people stupid, Not more intellectual! Yo! Dude, I was condemning the immorality brought by the Soviets.  Not supporting it.  2: You actually think it's "MORAL" for people to dress like whores and faggots and get drunk ??? Actually no, I'm Mormon.  Premarital Sex, Alcohol and immoral behavior are just as horrid to me as they are to a Muslim woman.  And watch your language.  (more proof you are not Iranian) 3: This "morality" as you call it is not really in the Afghan culture, rather it was brought to Afghanistan by the Communists, and now by the Capitalists/imperialists. I'm not calling it "morality" I'm saying that form of "morality" was brought in and that the locals fear it returning.  With good reason. 4: Do you think religious people want women to wear proper clothes in order to control them??? What does clothes have to do with education, when in reality slotty women are the stupid ones, while those who dress modestly can concentrate on their education and other useful activities instead of streetwalking. You can dress Islamically and modestly without being forced into a burka that obscures your vision and suffocates you.  Even most niqabs with veils are not as restrictive as the Burqah.  I wear skirts to my ankles and long sleeve shirts.  I'm not talking about street walker clothes.  I do believe that FORCING a woman to wear a cloth that she cannot see out of is a form of control and not protection.  We are not talking headscarfs we are talking total obliteration of the woman. No one is "afraid" of filthy women we just dont like to see our Muslim brothers and sisters acting like pigs. 5: You say women who stay at home and look after the kids are like ANIMALS??? No, I'm saying that preventing a woman from leaving the house is what makes her like an animal.  Staying home to care for the kids is one thing.  Not being able to go to the grocery store without a male relative escort is another thing.  Not being able to work and being forced to beg for money because your husband has died is another thing.  Being shot for daring to be outside is something else.  Don't fool yourself, these women were not chosing to stay in the four walls of their home 24/7.  They were forced to be there. Ever heard of PIGS??? Did you know that PIGS are animals??? 6: And you then say... they want to prevent women from reading the Quran . So far, every single thing you said in your post is against the Quran and against Islamic laws, so who are you trying to fool ? 95% of the country is Illiterate and they are bombing and blowing up schools.  Do you think that destroying schools is Islamic?  And you obviously didn't read my post well enough.  I wasn't supporting the immorality.  Education is prized in Islam, the destruction of places of Education can only mean that those in control are afraid of people thinking for themselves. I mean SERIOSLY, do you think whores read the Quran but religious women who wear Hijab and take care of their kids and dont like cheating on their husband dont ? And in the end you say:  "Education is a weapon they fear most."  So let me get this straight. A woman who dresses up like a whore, goes out of house without her husband's permission and gets into all kinds of filthy places including bars is "educated" ??? The truth is that most Afghans, men or women are not educated due to the Poverty. Even the Taliban wanted to build schools for girls but couldnt because they didnt even have enough money to feed their people. Their children were dying out of starvation and then you have the UN and the US condemning them for not building schools for girls  And then, these same guys bombed Afghanistan, placed sanctions of them, funded the warlords and drug addicts to spread chaos, and finally invaded the county and bombed more people and destroyed more houses... Then they claimed that Afghan women are not educated because they dont dress like whores.... How on earth does nudity help women's education and intellect??????!????? Again, I NEVER SAID THIS, YOU ARE PUTTING WORDS INTO MY MOUTH. The Northern Alliance are losing, even with all the help that the USA gave them. Pakistan has already accepted defeat and sooner or later, the Taliban are going to take back control. What the Northern Alliance and the US are now trying to do is fight a propaganda war, hoping to turn the people against the Taliban in order to recruit more soldiers in their own army and decrease support for the Taliban.

From the filthy language you used through this whole rant, you're a hypocrite.  You don't know the first thing about the Taliban, the Quran or what honest hard working (chaste and modest) women are really like. 

You think that just because a woman has an education and leaves the house that she's going to become some harlot?  You think that because a woman speaks with another man, she's going to jump into bed with them?  Do I have to remind you which gender pays for sex?  Do I have to remind you the statistics of infidelity of male and female?  Women are not the ones who go all freaky and immoral when society breaks down.  Women are the ones that become the victims.  Men have always been the problem, when they beat their wives, rob them of their dignity and then blame them when morality breaks down.

The Quran and the Prophet Muhammed (pbuh) fought for women to be recognized as useful members of society deserving of fair treatment.  His own wife was a successful business woman and not some cowering slavegirl called a wife forced to stay home with her children. 

Every school built is time and money, blowing it up only shows ignorance and a need to create fear. 

And considering your need to lie about yourself and your origins, you have no right to say anything.  You're some couch jockey from Middle America who probably is jaded because no one cares what you think and so you created some identity.  Whisper caught you red handed... and reading over your post.  I totally agree with him, you don't have a middle eastern bone in your body.

Im sorry I got the wrong impression from your post, but you did really make it seem like you were supporting bars and bad clothing.

I DID read your post carefully, it seems like you did not type it carefully though.

This is what you wrote:

 "The Soviets encouraged the women to get out, and ditch the traditional garb.  Women were wearing short skirts, western styles and going to bars.  (Men, too)  I think many of these men are afraid to see that kind of morality come back to Afghanistan.  They are also afraid of losing control.  When women are educated, they refuse to be locked away and treated like animals.  By preventing the education of girls (And of Boys) they can control the population." 

Notice you first talked about how these things were brought into Afghanistan, then you said Afghan men are afraid of this kind of morality, and then you started condemning the religious Afghans.

So your post Clearly gave the wrong impression.

Again, Im sorry for misjudging you, I still totally disagree with what you said but Im sorry for being too harsh as I was shocked by your previous post.

Angela wrote: Actually no, I'm Mormon.  Premarital Sex, Alcohol and immoral behavior are just as horrid to me as they are to a Muslim woman.  And watch your language.  (more proof you are not Iranian)

Proof that Im not Iranian?????

Angela wrote: Then they claimed that Afghan women are not educated because they dont dress like whores.... How on earth does nudity help women's education and intellect??????!????? Again, I NEVER SAID THIS, YOU ARE PUTTING WORDS INTO MY MOUTH.

I didnt say you said this, I was talking about the US and UN accusations against the Taliban.

(if you read the previous paragraph, I was talking about US and UN, and here I said THEY, not YOU)

Now regarding the Thread title "What are they so afraid of".

Let me ask this:

Do you think people must be allowed to excrete in public ???

If your answer is no, then please tell me, WHAT ARE YOU SO AFFRAID OF ??? Why are you against people's freedom and liberty ?? Is it because you want to control them ?

What if you can do it as long as you clean it ? Do you think it should be allowed or not ?

It's funny being called an "American" by someone who himself lives in the United States, and possibly pays taxes and helps the economy, thus helping the Government in the murder of Muslims in Iraq and Afghanistan...!

In any case Angela's post gave the wrong impression (at least to me) because first she talked about western "morality" being brought to Afghanistan, then condemns those who oppose these things!

It's as if someone says: "Germany was bombed and defeated in World War 2 and thus democracy replaced the evil Nazi Government. Nazis were very evil people, they were racist and ..."

Now this sentence gives the impression that whoever says it does not only oppose the beliefs of Nazis, but also supports the bombing of Germany in World War 2. He or she may not SAY "I am happy they were bombed" but the sentence Does give that impression.

I got the exact same impression from the sentence posted by Angela which I quoted above. Again I apologise to Angela for being too harsh, but hope that she would also be more careful in the future.

Thank you Angela for you insightful and (to me) very clear comments.

But to the rest of you, I am still waiting for an answer to my question above:  is there any "justification" for this killing of a courageous Muslim woman who despite vilification and ultimately the loss of her life sought education, respect, and a right to have some say over their lives and personal dignity for Afghan women?

To me the answer is "no", but then I am not Muslim. What I have read still tells me the answer should be "no", yet the perpetrators (presumably) did this with a clear conscience sure that what they were doing was somehow sanctioned.

Can anyone clarify this for me please? 

Cassandra wrote: Thank you Angela for you insightful and (to me) very clear comments.

Ofcourse YOU would say that...youre the one who started this thread

Cassandra wrote: But to the rest of you, I am still waiting for an answer to my question above:  is there any "justification" for this killing of a courageous Muslim woman who despite vilification and ultimately the loss of her life sought education, respect, and a right to have some say over their lives and personal dignity for Afghan women?

If this was the case, then no there is no justification for it at all.

But beware of propaganda, especially coming from the drug addict Northern Alliance, and the WMD seeking US Government.

How could the Taliban Kill a woman for teaching, when they themselves wanted to build schools for girls and didnt only due to lack of funds?

How could the Taliban kill a woman when they believe killing women is not allowed except in the case of married adultery or murder.

Why would the Taliban even bother with this when they are busy enough fighting over 70,000 Northern Alliance troops, 11,000 Americans, and thousands and thousands of other troops including Nato?

Daniel Dworsky wrote: Sawtul: (Doesn't that mean "Stoner") I think you are full of your own metaphore. What's more I am tired of stepping in it.

No it doesnt...

Its just great to have you back, Cassandra!

I watched a show once on Soviet Occupied Afghanistan.  The Soviets encouraged the women to get out, and ditch the traditional garb.  Women were wearing short skirts, western styles and going to bars.  (Men, too)  I think many of these men are afraid to see that kind of morality come back to Afghanistan.  They are also afraid of losing control. 

That could be one of the reasons in this strange and a bit confused scenario, but these days we are, mostly, getting a lot of retreat propaganda. Kabul and Brussels are following CIA scripts.

Would you believe it, I have actually seen some of such guidance manuals!! 

Cassandra

You ask a valid question. I do not believe anyone can justify killing of a woman because she wants to improve conditions for women.

However, I think you simplify the issue by the way you asked your question. Let�s not forget that she was an official in the Karzai government. This government is currently engaged in a civil war. I do not know where you stand on this war. Personally, I no longer know whose side is less wrong. But, I do know there have been horrendous atrocities perpetrated by both sides.

Also please consider the fact that there have been assassination attempts on all government officials in Afghanistan. Why was this one successful? Did she have less protection than her male colleagues? If so why? Was there an investigation of the security lapse? Was anyone held accountable for the security lapse?

Is this another endless, senseless, savage war that will continue for generations to come?

Let�s not forget that she was an official in the Karzai government. You have hit the nail where it should be hit.

This government is currently engaged in a civil war. The Afghans are not fighting a civil war, we feel, we are resisting occupation, forced on us through a token puppet, kept alive by Amreeki and elite Israeli bodyguards.

She has been a casualty of being seen as a collaborator. 

Pronounced sootul means one under the influence

Uncs, please, don�t mind this chap. We all know his worth by now. I can�t apologise on his behalf, he is definitely from this side of the Suez.

I think that the CIA and the KGB have done a number on the Afghani people and the results are once again hurting any chance for real improvement.

A western set of (im)moral values were imposed by the athiest Soviet Regime.  The CIA armed men in the name of their religion to wage war on our enemy.  (Anyone who thinks the Cold War was Cold doesn't understand history.)  And then when they turned around and plunged the Afghani people back 500 years.  We cried foul.

This woman was murdered for multiple reasons.  I'm sure her place in power, her social programs and her "coziness" with the Americans had much to do with it. 

I still say that schools are the answer instead of bombs.  And I also feel that Islamic Missionaries establishing Madrasses (I know I mispelled that) for boys and girls would be a huge benefit to Afghanistan.  Imagine having every boy and girl fluent and literate. 

Poverty cannot end without education.  The Afghani people cannot stand on their own without empowerment.  They cannot decide their own path without knowing what's out there. 

I read a very good book that I recommend by Jason Elliott called An Unexpected Light. He traveled several times in Afghanistan.  What really was apparent to me is that the Afghani people have been under occupation or attempted occupation for a long time. Their country has been destroyed by many outside forces and influences.  Plus one can never know who is doing what unless you are there. I rarely trust media reports.  I think when you like in a world under constant attacks of some sort, your land in mined, your cities and towns were destroyed by the soviets and followed by others everything becomes chaotic.

A number of his t ravels took him to remote villages. And on the way or nearby are these old Russian tanks, basically in the middle of nowhere. What were they doing there? Then they mine the land and then people cannot support themselves, they conscripted men into the army.

I am saddened by all of the death and destruction that is occurring to Afghanistan and the people there.  This woman, like thousands and thousands of others is a casualty of  chaos, war, greed and oppression.

A western set of (im)moral values were imposed by the athiest Soviet Regime.  The CIA armed men in the name of their religion to wage war on our enemy.  (Anyone who thinks the Cold War was Cold doesn't understand history.)  And then when they turned around and plunged the Afghani people back 500 years.  We cried foul.

This woman, like thousands and thousands of others is a casualty of  chaos, war, greed and oppression.

Two absolutely divine statements.

Uncs, it could mean the "voice of Khilafa" or with a mute "w" it becomes the "hour, moment or the time" of khilafa.

Whatever, may he rest in peace.

At times, even watching some wellknown commercials, aka the BBC news, can solve certain riddles.

This morning I saw this huge global promo, wrapped up as some competition, with a signature tune, put together by some spin masters trained at Anna Freud�s school of Fraudology.

"Changing the Lives of People" must be some noble aim. In fact many champions have been awarded Nobel Prizes just for that - Changing the Lives of People!

Experience shows that such poetic flow past our screens as preambles of more interesting efforts of "changing" peoples� lives, say, with therapy from 52,000 feet in the air or some other more interesting changes like Qaboos suddenly being flown to take over from his own father - who was declared mad for starting to think of his own people first!

Could anyone please fill me in one the following questions:

Is it possible that when you talk of changing our lives, you are reflecting, in fact, a dream to change your own life?

Is everyone in our world living in the same concrete jungle, with hyped pressures, two visits a week to the shrink and other such status symbols?

Is it ever possible that some people in our world are living more happy lives than you could possibly imagine, but you have to be shown just how "lucky" you are for running hot water and a regular seat at the local theatre?

Is it possible that mothers in some parts of the world might feel a wee different from their sisters stuck in the Madison Avenue?

Why must we change our lives to the west�s prescriptions when all its medicine come pre-packed with 22 side effects?

How important it is for a three years old to know that mama is some Nuerosurgeon or that she is flying the 19:40 to Dubai and will be back by the morning?

Great industrial symbols always work, eveywhere?

How many of know here that every single child across the Muslim world can read the Quran before they are nine. They are taught at home or at the Madrassa?

We are terribly afraid of becoming like you.

(More later . . . must rush)

Whisper,

I'm not for "forcing" women into any role.  I am for freeing all people to chose their path.  Without Madame Curie, we would not be able to understand X-rays that have saved thousands of lives.  Without Theano, Pythagoras' theories might have been lost to time and her discovery of the golden rule of geometry, Pascal would have been lost. 

Women have made great contributions to science, math, medicine and social change.  The Florence Nightingales and Clara Bartons of Afghanistan are there waiting to learn.  But, if a woman choses to focus on her children, she should be given the security and encouragement to do that.

I've often dreamed of having the freedom to have a small ranch/farmette here where my kids can run loose for hours and I have the benefit of staying home with them.  But, the more educated I am, the better they will be.  Even if I don't use it. 

Education should be cheap, accessible and equal for all.  Families should be equiped to get out of poverty, avoid debt and provide for the futures of their children. 

The middle class is dwindling in the United States, our system isn't working.  But that doesn't mean the basic fundementals of education are wrong.

You say every single child can read the Quran by 9.  Then why are so many adults illiterate?  This would be a dream that would be nice.  But its not a reality.  If women are forbidden to learn to read, who is going to teach the child at home while the father is working?

This is my problem with the former government of Afghanistan.  I don't care about terrorism, Al Qaeda or OBL.  I care about the Fatimas, Zarehs and Qalats.  I care about the young ones who are doomed to grow poppies for the northern alliance and the child brides sold off because of the poverty. 

I really think more aid and reconstruction money needs dumped into Afghanistan.  No strings attached.  For the Farmers, good crops should be supplied.  For the workers, better jobs.  For all, better schools and healthcare.

Angela

You get my vote for secretary of state!

If half of our foreign policy makers were half as smart as you and did only half the things you suggested we would be better off than we are today.

God knows we Muslims have our faults and have done terrible things to ourselves. Subjugation of Afghan women and stripping them of their human rights is one of them. However, not all Muslim men participated in this atrocity. Nor did all Afghan men support the Taliban. I feel there is a concerted effort to drive a wedge between Muslim men and women everywhere. The plight of Afghan women is sometimes used as a propaganda tool to this end. WASP men are portrayed as nights in shining armor rushing to the rescue of Muslim women and Muslim men are lumped together as �evil doers�, �dead enders� �savages� and �barbarians� who must be eliminated.

I hope and pray Muslims are smarter than that. I hope and pray we take it upon ourselves to face our deficiencies and correct them without tearing ourselves apart.

aka2x2 wrote:  Subjugation of Afghan women and stripping them of their human rights is one of them.

The so called "human rights" is just a term made by the UN who plan to destroy all religions and replace Islamic, Christian, Jewish laws with their own laws, and in the end, with their own global one world religion which is to abolish all other religions.

Men have no more rights than the rights given to them by Allah, and women have no more rights than the rights given to them by Allah.

We do not need to the UN rights which only encourage the breaking up of families, sexual perversion and all other immoral things that we see increasing in the west on a daily basis.

The Declaration consists of a preamble and 30 articles, setting forth the human rights and fundamental freedoms to which all men and women, everywhere in the world, are entitled, without any discrimination.

Article 1, which lays down the philosophy on which the Declaration is based, reads:

All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights. They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood.

The article thus defines the basic assumptions of the Declaration: that the right to liberty and equality is man's birthright and cannot be alienated: and that, because man is a rational and moral being, he is different from other creatures on earth and therefore entitled to certain rights and freedoms which other creatures do not enjoy.

Article 2, which sets out the basic principle of equality and non discrimination as regards the enjoyment of human rights and fundamental freedoms, forbids "distinction of any kind, such as race, colour, sex, language, religion, political or other opinion, national or social origin, property, birth or other status".

Article 3, the first cornerstone of the Declaration, proclaims the right to life, liberty and security of person -a right essential to the enjoyment of all other rights. This article introduces articles 4 to 21, in which other civil and political rights are set out, including: freedom from slavery and servitude; freedom from torture and cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment or punishment; the right to recognition everywhere as a person before the law; the right to an effective judicial remedy; freedom from arbitrary arrest, detention or exile; the right to a fair trial and public hearing by an independent and impartial tribunal; the right to be presumed innocent until proved guilty; freedom from arbitrary interference with privacy, family, home or correspondence; freedom of movement and residence; the right of asylum; the right to a nationality; the right to marry and to found a family; the right to own property; freedom of thought, conscience and religion; freedom of opinion and expression; the right to peaceful assembly and association; and the right to take part in the government of one's country and to equal access to public service in one's country.

Article 22, the second cornerstone of the Declaration, introduces articles 23 to 27, in which economic, social and cultural rights -the rights to which everyone is entitled "as a member of society" -are set out. The article characterizes these rights as indispensable for human dignity and the free development of personality, and indicates that they are to be realized "through national effort and international cooperation". At the same time, it points out the limitations of realization, the extent of which depends on the resources of each State.

The economic, social and cultural rights recognized in articles 22 to 27 include the right to social security; the right to work; the right to equal pay for equal work; the right to rest and leisure; the right to a standard of living adequate for health and well-being; the right to education; and the right to participate in the cultural life of the community.

The concluding articles, articles 28 to 30, recognize that everyone is entitled to a social and international order in which the human rights and fundamental freedoms set forth in the Declaration may be fully realized, and stress the duties and responsibilities which each individual owes to his community. Article 29 states that "in the exercise of his rights and freedoms, everyone shall be subject only to such limitations as are determined by law solely for the purpose of securing due recognition and respect for the rights and freedoms of others and of meeting the just requirements of morality, public order and the general welfare in a democratic society". It adds that in no case may human rights and fundamental freedoms be exercised contrary to the purposes and principles of the United Nations. Article 30 emphasizes that no State, group or person may claim any right, under the Declaration, "to engage in any activity or to perform any act aimed at the destruction of any of the rights and freedoms set forth" in the Declaration.

No of course we don't need these human rights, of course these rights break up families and express immorality.  Why would anyone want protected from being persecuted, tortured and oppressed?  The foundations of all the Human Rights can be found in the Quran and the Sunnah.  These are not foreign concepts. 

What was done to the Afghan women by the men in power was cruel and inhuman.  It was totally unIslamic. 

Not every man beat his wife under the Taliban, many of them were drug off to fight for the Taliban and if they refused they were killed.  They had to keep their wives at home for their own safety.  Men were victims of the Taliban too.  However, their misery was nothing compared to what was suffered by the women of the country.

A friend of mine told me that she remembers sermons from the local leaders at the Mosques denouncing the Taliban in the 1990s.  Long before 9/11 there atrocities were gaining attention around the world.  I remember an article by a women's group that was discussing the inability of many of these women to get even healthcare because there were few women doctors and they couldn't go to male doctors. 

Which is more morally bankrupt?  To give both men and women the same basic protections and rights.  Or to force one sex into a position where they are denied the most basic of rights.

No, its Virgins Daniel.  It's just 72 BYU coeds. 

Bismillahirrahmaanerraheem

Angela wrote:  Why would anyone want protected from being persecuted, tortured and oppressed?

Then what is the UN doing sending troops to Afghanistan to murder and persecute people.

Why did the UN place sanctions on Afghanistan before the war when people were dying out of poverty ? 

The UN does not care about human life and freedom, they only want to inforce their ideology and philosophy. But in order to spread their propaganda they try to use beautiful words like "freedom, liberty, peace", when in reality they spread corruption, war and oppression.

Some Bosnian civilians were once fooled by the UN, but they payed a big price for it. They came to the UN asking for help and protection, but the UN handed them over to the Serbs to be massacared. Most of these civilians were women and children, and they were brutally massacred by the Serbs, thanks to UN's promise of "protection and peace".

Angela wrote: Not every man beat his wife under the Taliban, many of them were drug off to fight for the Taliban and if they refused they were killed.

Infact it is the allies of the UN and the US, the "freedom loving" Northern Alliance who are the real drugs addicts. Infact, many of the military leaders of the Northern alliance are drugs Lords. Even Hamid Karzais brother is now known to be in the drug business. The previous leader of the Northern Alliance, Ahmad Shah Masood is also known to have made money by selling drugs.

Since the invasion of Afghanistan, the production of illegal drugs has at least treppled, and even according to the UN itself it has broken the record !!!!

Also you claim that anyone who refused to fight for the Taliban was killed. What do you base this on ? Do you have a source for this or is this just another one of your lies and false accusations.

Intrestingly, the Bible refers to the "red Dragon" (whom Christians believe to be Satan) as "the accuser of our brethren" (read Revelation 12).

Angela wrote:   I remember an article by a women's group that was discussing the inability of many of these women to get even healthcare because there were few women doctors and they couldn't go to male doctors.

Im happy you admit that there were female doctors in Afghanistan. Yes there werent many, but maybe if the UN and the US ceased bully the Taliban and helping in the spread of poverty and chaos, there may have been more places for females to educate.

Also, as far as I know Afghan women did go to male doctors. This is the first time Im hearing this accusation.

First off, the UN didn't go this to Afghanistan.  The USSR and the USA did.  Afghanistan was trapped between two warring superpowers.  The UN didn't declare war on Afghanistan, the US did. 

As for the Bosnians, I would love someday to introduce you to a man who is a dear friend of my husbands.  He'll tell you about the UN and Bosnia.  He nearly died several times protecting Bosnia civilians.  But, more so, he can tell you the true horror of the massacres.  He's the poor guy who had to crawl through the bodies and disable the booby traps the Serbs left the UN troops when they were trying to give these people decent burials.  He'll also describe to you in detail the nightmares he still has at the woman and her infant the latter not a mark on her, thrown into the pit with her murdered mother alive.  The Bosnian Massacre is not the fault of the UN. 

As for the men who refused to fight being killed by the Taliban.  Talk to Sister Jenni here on the site.  She's married to a man from Pakistan.  There is a woman in her Mosque who had this very thing happen to her husband.  She had to flee with her small ones and not all of them survived.  Unless you want to call a Muslim sister a liar, too.

here's a bit on the Taliban and women.

 

Some of the restrictions imposed by Taliban on women in Afghanistan

 

The following list offers only an abbreviated glimpse of the hellish lives Afghan women are forced to lead under the Taliban, and can not begin to reflect the depth of female deprivations and sufferings. Taliban treat women worse than they treat animals. In fact, even as Taliban declare the keeping of caged birds and animals illegal, they imprison Afghan women within the four walls of their own houses. Women have no importance in Taliban eyes unless they are occupied producing children, satisfying male sexual needs or attending to the drudgery of daily housework. Jehadi fundamentalists such as Gulbaddin, Rabbani, Masood, Sayyaf, Khalili, Akbari, Mazari and their co-criminal Dostum have committed the most treacherous and filthy crimes against Afghan women. And as more areas come under Taliban control, even if the number of rapes and murders perpetrated against women falls, Taliban restrictions --comparable to those from the middle ages-- will continue to kill the spirit of our people while depriving them of a humane existence. We consider Taliban more treacherous and ignorant than Jehadis. According to our people, "Jehadis were killing us with guns and swords but Taliban are killing us with cotton."

 

Taliban restrictions and mistreatment of women include the: 1- Complete ban on women's work outside the home, which also applies to female teachers, engineers and most professionals. Only a few female doctors and nurses are allowed to work in some hospitals in Kabul. 2- Complete ban on women's activity outside the home unless accompanied by a mahram (close male relative such as a father, brother or husband). 3- Ban on women dealing with male shopkeepers. 4- Ban on women being treated by male doctors. 5- Ban on women studying at schools, universities or any other educational institution. (Taliban have converted girls' schools into religious seminaries.) 6- Requirement that women wear a long veil (Burqa), which covers them from head to toe. 7- Whipping, beating and verbal abuse of women not clothed in accordance with Taliban rules, or of women unaccompanied by a mahram. 8- Whipping of women in public for having non-covered ankles. 9- Public stoning of women accused of having sex outside marriage. (A number of lovers are stoned to death under this rule). 10- Ban on the use of cosmetics. (Many women with painted nails have had fingers cut off). 11- Ban on women talking or shaking hands with non-mahram males. 12- Ban on women laughing loudly. (No stranger should hear a woman's voice). 13- Ban on women wearing high heel shoes, which would produce sound while walking. (A man must not hear a woman's footsteps.) 14- Ban on women riding in a taxi without a mahram. 15- Ban on women's presence in radio, television or public gatherings of any kind. 16- Ban on women playing sports or entering a sport center or club. 17- Ban on women riding bicycles or motorcycles, even with their mahrams. 18- Ban on women's wearing brightly colored clothes. In Taliban terms, these are "sexually attracting colors." 19- Ban on women gathering for festive occasions such as the Eids, or for any recreational purpose. 20- Ban on women washing clothes next to rivers or in a public place. 21- Modification of all place names including the word "women." For example, "women's garden" has been renamed "spring garden". 22- Ban on women appearing on the balconies of their apartments or houses. 23- Compulsory painting of all windows, so women can not be seen from outside their homes. 24- Ban on male tailors taking women's measurements or sewing women's clothes. 25- Ban on female public baths. 26- Ban on males and females traveling on the same bus. Public buses have now been designated "males only" (or "females only"). 27- Ban on flared (wide) pant-legs, even under a burqa. 28- Ban on the photographing or filming of women. 29- Ban on women's pictures printed in newspapers and books, or hung on the walls of houses and shops. Apart from the above restrictions on women, the Taliban has: - Banned listening to music, not only for women but men as well. - Banned the watching of movies, television and videos, for everyone. - Banned celebrating the traditional new year (Nowroz) on March 21. The Taliban has proclaimed the holiday un-Islamic. - Disavowed Labor Day (May 1st), because it is deemed a "communist" holiday. - Ordered that all people with non-Islamic names change them to Islamic ones. - Forced haircuts upon Afghan youth. - Ordered that men wear Islamic clothes and a cap. - Ordered that men not shave or trim their beards, which should grow long enough to protrude from a fist clasped at the point of the chin. - Ordered that all people attend prayers in mosques five times daily. - Banned the keeping of pigeons and playing with the birds, describing it as un-Islamic. The violators will be imprisoned and the birds shall be killed. The kite flying has also been stopped. - Ordered all onlookers, while encouraging the sportsmen, to chant Allah-o-Akbar (God is great) and refrain from clapping. - Ban on certain games including kite flying which is "un-Islamic" according to Taliban. - Anyone who carries objectionable literature will be executed. - Anyone who converts from Islam to any other religion will be executed. - All boy students must wear turbans. They say "No turban, no education". - Non-Muslim minorities must distinct badge or stitch a yellow cloth onto their dress to be differentiated from the majority Muslim population. Just like what did Nazis with Jews. - Banned the use of the internet by both ordinary Afghans and foreigners. And so on...

 

http://www.rawa.org

Angela wrote: First off, the UN didn't go this to Afghanistan.  The USSR and the USA did.  Afghanistan was trapped between two warring superpowers.  The UN didn't declare war on Afghanistan, the US did.

First of all the UN was made by the US Government in the firts place, and secondly the UN DID send troops to Afghanistan and the UN did encourage chaos and sanctions in Afghanistan when the Taliban were incharge.

Angela wrote: 1- Complete ban on women's work outside the home...  Only a few female doctors and nurses are allowed to work in some hospitals in Kabul. Love the contradiction. Angela wrote: 2- Complete ban on women's activity outside the home unless accompanied by a mahram (close male relative such as a father, brother or husband). This was clearly explained by the Taliban numerous times. It was because Afghanistan was filled with rapists (the same guys who joined the Northern Alliance) so it was infact for the women's own protection. This was also not something that the Taliban introduced for the first time, as in Afghan culture this has always been the case.   Angela wrote: 18- Ban on women's wearing brightly colored clothes. In Taliban terms, these are "sexually attracting colors." As far as I know, most Afghan women wore bright blue ... Angela wrote: 19- Ban on women gathering for festive occasions such as the Eids, or for any recreational purpose. ????     Angela wrote: 11- Ban on women talking or shaking hands with non-mahram males. This is for both men and women so... ?? Angela wrote: 18- Ban on women's wearing brightly colored clothes. In Taliban terms, these are "sexually attracting colors." As far as I know, most Afghan women wore bright blue ... Angela wrote:   26- Ban on males and females traveling on the same bus. Public buses have now been designated "males only" (or "females only"). Yeah those guys even had seperate toilets for males and females!!!!!!!!

Amazing how you had to repeat yourself over and over.  Do you believe it yet?

Please, provide your proofs.  I posted this from an Afghani women's site.  I could post more if you like.  Oh, but you'd rather believe the lies of the men who plunged an entire group of the Ummah into utter darkness.

The Plight of the Muslim Women of Afghanistan under the Taliban
Islam means the submission of humankind to the will of God, not the submission of women to the will of men.

The four thumbnail photos above are taken from a video filmed using a hidden camera in Kabul on August 26, 2001 by RAWA, an all-female Afghan underground movement. It shows two Taliban from the department of Amro bil mahroof (Promotion of Virtue and Prevention of Vice, Taliban religious police) beating a woman because she dared to remove her burqa in public.

"Treat your women well and be kind to them for they are your partners and committed helpers."
From the last sermon of Prophet Mohammed

"None but a noble man treats women in an honorable manner. And none but an ignoble treats women disgracefully".
Prophet Mohammed (At-Tirmithy).

According to Abdullah ibn Mas'ud, the Prophet is reported to have said:

If a daughter is born to a person and he brings her up, gives her a good education and trains her in the arts of life, I shall myself stand between him and hell-fire.
(Kanz al-Ummal).
quoted in Women in Islam by M. Mazheruddin Siddiqi

How praiseworthy are the women of Ansar that their modesty does not prevent them from attempts at learning and the acquisition of knowledge.
(Sahih Muslim, Kitab al Tahrat).

A person who has a female slave in charge and takes steps to give her a sound education and trains her in arts and culture, and then frees her and marries her, he will be doubly rewarded.
(Sahih Bukhari, Kitab al-Nikah).

Some Muslim callers preach a false and ugly version of Islam and then complain because people do not accept it.  I think that those ignorant preachers should be imprisoned or lashed because they divert people from the way of Allah and the truth that Muhammad, the final Messenger, declared.
http://www.ghazaly.net/ - Sheikh Muhammad Al-Ghazaly .

Muslims who advance conservative views on female affairs...are normally very literal in their understanding of texts; but they tendentiously opt for an understanding that suits their prejudice.
Dr Hassan Al-Turabi

http://afghanwomensmission.org/index.shtml">

Women have clearly defined rights in Islam.  These have been set out in the http://www.islamfortoday.com/womens_rights_references.htm - Quran and Sunnah and also have been made explicit by scholars such as Dr Hassan Al-Turabi of Sudan in his seminal 1973 pamphlet, http://www.islamfortoday.com/turabi01.htm - On the Position of Women in Islam and in Islamic Society and by the famous English convert to Islam and Quran translator, Mohammad Marmaduke Pickthall. Yet much as Pickthall lamented and condemned the non-Islamic treatment and "pitiful condition of Muslim womanhood"  in India as long ago as 1925 in his lecture http://www.islamfortoday.com/pickthallsexes.htm - The Relation of the Sexes , today in 2001 we find the Muslim women of Afghanistan being treated much worse by the Taleban regime, who serve up a grotesque caricature of Islam and  bring the good name of our beloved religion into such disrepute.

http://rawa.fancymarketing.net/donation.htm">

Islam means the submission of humankind to the will of God, not the submission of women to the will of men.  Please find below links to web pages and sites detailing the plight of the Muslim women of Afghanistan

http://www.islamfortoday.com/afghanistanwomen1.htm - http://www.islamfortoday.com/afghanistanwomen1.htm

http://www.hazara.net/taliban/revocation_of_rights/revocation_of_rights.html - http://www.hazara.net/taliban/revocation_of_rights/revocatio n_of_rights.html

http://www.phrusa.org/campaigns/afghanistan/Afghan_report.html - http://www.phrusa.org/campaigns/afghanistan/Afghan_report.ht ml

http://www.islamfortoday.com/taleban13.htm - http://www.islamfortoday.com/taleban13.htm

Great logic.

Make an accusation, then instead of proving the accusation, just explain "why it's wrong".

The Taliban never forbade education for women, but you simply put forward the accusation, then try to explain why it's wrong to prevent women from education!!!

Also, you claim that some websites on the internet are "proof". As if you dont know about something called "PROPAGANDA".

Just look at the pictures you posted. This is precisely what propaganda is. Show a picture of a girl crying, (as if no other girl in the world cries) simply to make it all look emotional.

This is what deception is all about, and this is precisely how propaganda works.

It's also amazing how Ive seen this one picture of some guy in Afghanistan hitting a woman over and over and over and over again. They keep showing the exact same footage on every channel on TV and Sky, every website and any other source who want to spread anti-Taliban propaganda.

As if this one guy is the only man living in Afghanistan!

The Hadith you quote have absolutely nothing to do with letting women go around naked. Infact, we cant respect women if they dont respect themselves. So how are we to respect a girl who shows half her body and shape, hoping to attract young men so she can fulfill her own sick desires.

Neither can a woman respect a stranger who looks at her luftfully or tries to touch her. So if we want men and women to respect eachother, then they must follow certain morals and laws, or else we might as well live in a jungle.

You also quote a deceptive sentece:
"Islam means the submission of humankind to the will of God, not the submission of women to the will of men."

This is like saying "Islam means the submission of humankind to the will of God, not the submission of a child to his/her mother."

And hence, the child stops listening to his/her mother using this sentence, and does whatever he wants.

This is also like a criminal saying: "Islam means the submission of humankind to the will of God, not the submuission of a man to the will of Governemnt" and then he goes and commits crimes and breaks the law, using the above sentence as an excuse.

Well God clearly states in the Quran that Man is the head of family, so the sentence you wrote contradicts itself!!!

Infact, even the Bible states that women are not even allowed to speak up in Church and numerous other similair things.

Oh, and that picture of the old woman is just hilarious. What does that supposed to mean? That she is upset she cant show off her body ??? These guys just take pictures of sad looking Afghans and then use them as propaganda, when in reality they may have absolutely nothing to do with what is being propagated.

Here's my propaganda:

People in the west want Islamic Caliphate

Sawtul Khilafah wrote: The Taliban never forbade education for women, but you simply put forward the accusation, then try to explain why it's wrong to prevent women from education!!!

This is documented by both Afghani and Muslim women's groups around the world.  Want to call them liars again.

Sawtul Khilafah wrote: Also, you claim that some websites on the internet are "proof". As if you dont know about something called "PROPAGANDA". Just look at the pictures you posted. This is precisely what propaganda is. Show a picture of a girl crying, (as if no other girl in the world cries) simply to make it all look emotional. This is what deception is all about, and this is precisely how propaganda works.

So, anything that shows women in misery is propaganda, but there never seems to be any videos available to disprove them.  Please, show me pictures of women under the Taliban smiling and enjoying themselves, their children and their faith. (Here's a hint...you won't be able to)

Sawtul Khilafah wrote: It's also amazing how Ive seen this one picture of some guy in Afghanistan hitting a woman over and over and over and over again. They keep showing the exact same footage on every channel on TV and Sky, every website and any other source who want to spread anti-Taliban propaganda. As if this one guy is the only man living in Afghanistan!

Never said that was every man in Afghanistan.  But, what faced the women when they left the house?  What about the women who were widows and had no mehram to escort them?  Are they to be abandoned by society because the law says they cannot have a job outside the home?  In a poverty stricken country with no welfare system, this dooms the woman to starvation and begging.  It robs her dignity to have to go into the street (risking either being beaten by the authorities, accused of prostitution or being raped) to have to beg for handouts? You really are heartless.

Sawtul Khilafah wrote: The Hadith you quote have absolutely nothing to do with letting women go around naked. Infact, we cant respect women if they dont respect themselves. So how are we to respect a girl who shows half her body and shape, hoping to attract young men so she can fulfill her own sick desires. Neither can a woman respect a stranger who looks at her luftfully or tries to touch her. So if we want men and women to respect eachother, then they must follow certain morals and laws, or else we might as well live in a jungle.

Why is everything about sex and nakedness with you?  You're obsessed.  Okay, here's an experiment.  Put on a Burqah and try to walk around your house.  Get some needlework mesh and a sheet.  Try telling me that this is modesty.  Now, go to the local masjid and see what the sisters are wearing.  You can see their eyes for a reason.  God would never make it harder on a woman than necessary.  Were not talking legs and breasts here.  We are talking being able to see that car barreling down on you or that hole in front of you so you don't twist an ankle.

Sawtul Khilafah wrote: You also quote a deceptive sentece: "Islam means the submission of humankind to the will of God, not the submission of women to the will of men." This is like saying "Islam means the submission of humankind to the will of God, not the submission of a child to his/her mother." And hence, the child stops listening to his/her mother using this sentence, and does whatever he wants. This is also like a criminal saying: "Islam means the submission of humankind to the will of God, not the submuission of a man to the will of Governemnt" and then he goes and commits crimes and breaks the law, using the above sentence as an excuse. Well God clearly states in the Quran that Man is the head of family, so the sentence you wrote contradicts itself!!! Infact, even the Bible states that women are not even allowed to speak up in Church and numerous other similair things.

The Man being the head of the household does not make him a slave master.  We are only to bow to God and submit to him.  You saying that a woman should submit to the man makes him superior.  A parent is superior to a child, that is why they must submit.  But men are not superior to women.  They are the protectors and maintainers not the masters.  There is only one master, God.  Ever heard the statement that no man can have two masters.  Its the same for a woman.

Sawtul Khilafah wrote: Oh, and that picture of the old woman is just hilarious. What does that supposed to mean? That she is upset she cant show off her body ??? These guys just take pictures of sad looking Afghans and then use them as propaganda, when in reality they may have absolutely nothing to do with what is being propagated.

Maybe she's upset because she's in danger, poverty or has lost someone special.  You have this obsession where you think that equality means nakedness.  I really wonder about you at certain points.  Why does the idea of women being out of the house and going to school mean nudity to you?   Why does the total obliteration of a woman under a burqah mean chasity to you?  Millions and millions of Muslim women wear jilbabs, abaya and hijab and are considered modestly dressed.  Why is forcing women into burqahs and making them paint their windows black only seen in areas that were controlled by the Taliban?   The websites I used were very specific.  They were muslim websites or respected impartial groups. 

What proof do you have that women were not forbidden from schools?  The few female doctors practicing in Kabul (one city in all of Afghanistan) were educated BEFORE the Taliban came to power.  How many women became doctors AFTER?

Bismillahirrahmaanerraheem

Angela wrote: So, anything that shows women in misery is propaganda, but there never seems to be any videos available to disprove them.  Please how me pictures of women under the Taliban smiling and enjoying themselves, their children and their faith. (Here's a hint...you won't be able to)

Ofcourse because you cant see them smiling when they are covering their faces (Duh!)

Angela wrote:  They are the protectors and maintainers not the masters.  There is only one master, God.  Ever heard the statement that no man can have two masters.  Its the same for a woman.

I never said the husband is the God of the wife, but since the man is the head of the family the wife must listen to her, the same way that the man must obey the laws of the country.

Angela wrote: Maybe she's upset because she's in danger, poverty or has lost someone special.

Or maybe it's because someone special to her was killed by the Allies (US, UN, Northern Alliance etc.)

Angela wrote:  You have this obsession where you think that equality means nakedness.  I really wonder about you at certain points.  Why does the idea of women being out of the house and going to school mean nudity to you?

We are dealing with two issues here. You complained about two things:Women not being able to wear attractive clothes or show their body or shape And women not being able to go to school.

I dont think the old woman in the picture looked sad becuase she wanted to go to school..., neither could she be wanting to show her body (unless she is totally retarded). Hence she must be sad about something else. We dont know what, but to use that picture for an unrelated propaganda is dishonest to say the least.

Angela wrote: What proof do you have that women were not forbidden from schools?

To tell you the truth I dont have any Real Proof, and neither do you. All I know is that the Taliban said they would make schools for girls if they had enough funding.

Were they telling the truth ? Well I think they were, because if they were totally against female education they would not let female doctors and nurses to work there, especially as this would encourage other women to educate.

Angela wrote: The few female doctors practicing in Kabul (one city in all of Afghanistan) were educated BEFORE the Taliban came to power.  How many women became doctors AFTER?

Obviously none, since the Taliban were only incharge for less than 5 years and that's not enough time for someone to become a doctor!

In almost all cases of war, peoples lives are chaotic and fearful. Often any new ruling group will force subjugation of those who came before them.

Oh, and that picture of the old woman is just hilarious. What does that supposed to mean? That she is upset she cant show off her body ???

Are you just heartless and cruel? Where is your compassion? The Afghani people have suffered for decades. They have been pawns of others. Can you not look into the eyes of another human being and feel for them? Have you thought about her being hungry?  Clerly people there are suffering, especially the women.  No one is saying that it is because they are Moslems. There are many happy and healthy Moslems in the world. 40 years of war and conflict will destroy people. It destoys their systems of governance, their education systems, their food production and their social systems. With the advent of war many people with the skills such as doctors or educations either were killed or fled. Very few brave people stayed.

Not everything is "propoganda" as you say.  Some sure, yes, but not all of it. No one is saying Iranians live such terrible lives and they are a Moslem country. Or how about those Saudis. The sad part is the Russians had reduced it to rubble and the US finished what little their was left. In war and chaos there is no regular life.

Sawtul Khilafah rejoined:

"As far as I know, most Afghan women wore bright blue ..."

(?)point

Sign Reader commented: (and thanks for your post; you make some very interesting points)

"You know after a good round of hashish, what does a dopehead would like to have-- a woman of easy virtues!!!"

Yessiree:  those bright blue burquas can really turn a man into an animal!

If a man can't control himself, it is a woman's fault for not covering herself from head to toe (thus restricting all movement - but a good way to keep us under control, no?) I am sitting here at the computer wearing mid height heels, a mid calf skirt, and a tank top (exposing arms!!!). I think I look quite acceptable, not provocative, there are no male teachers beating my office door down, and anyway, would find it hard to type in a burqua! When are men going to stop using the excuse that women "provoke them"?

When are men going to stop turning equality into a question of chastity versus harlotry?

Why does a woman have to be some submissive animal at the beck and call of her less chaste male counterpart to stay pure?

Why does a woman have to submit to her male counterpart that are the perpetrators of 99% of sexual crimes?

Rape, incest, child abuse, pedophilia...these crimes have far, far, far more male perpetrators and far, far, far more female victims.

Men are the ones failing in situations like Afghanistan.  Stone the woman "accused" of adultery, but don't round up the rapists and have public executions.  If the men truly feared the punishments available like women must, then a woman wouldn't need an escort 24/7.

There are hadiths that state a woman only needs a mehram with her if she's going somewhere further than 88 miles (I think) which was the distance you could travel in three days. 

The Prophet of Islam clearly did not intend for women to be locked away in their homes.

And he clearly did not believe they should denied their rights, which they were under the Taliban.

Muhammed (pbuh) wrote: O People, it is true that you have certain rights over your women, but they also have rights over you. Remember that you have taken them as your wives only under God's trust and with His permission. If they abide by your right then to them belongs the right to be fed and clothed in kindness. Treat your women well and be kind to them, for they are your partners and committed helpers. It is your right and they do not make friends with anyone of whom you do not approve, as well as never to be unchaste...

Sign*Reader,

I do not want to see Afghani women become paper dolls of American women.  I would much prefer to see them in their hijabs and abayas, smiling and laughing and happy. 

I would love to see them without fear of Taliban executions or American Bombs.

I would love to see female doctors, teachers and scientists that can help their people to pull them up out of the rubble made by foreign powers.

This for me isn't about the miniskirt and tank top.  Its far more basic.  Its about the woman's well being.  Being scantily clad is not well being, I certainly won't let my daughters dress lewdly.  However, I also want my girls to be able to go to school and travel without interference.  I want them to be able to find a good husband and not have to fear the government dictating how their relationship should work or having him carried off to war. 

Forced submission is anti-Islamic.  Choice is a gift from God.

Angela wrote: Men are the ones failing in situations like Afghanistan.  Stone the woman "accused" of adultery, but don't round up the rapists and have public executions.  If the men truly feared the punishments available like women must, then a woman wouldn't need an escort 24/7.

Even your own sources confess that wherever was taken over by Taliban, they put an end to rape. Infact, what made Mullah Muhammad Omar stand up and fight in the first place was when he saw a family who had been raped by criminals during Soviet Rule.

The Taliban did infact execute a lot of rapists, this is while the beloved friends of the UN and US, the Northern Alliance have always been famous for rape (even according to your sources).

But women dont dress up just so that they wont be raped! Intrestingly, a lot of Afghan women continue to wear the Burqa even after the US invasion and the taking over by the Northern Alliance who encourage the removal of Hijab.

The problem is its wrong no matter where it is, while women in the West were property, Muslimahs were property owners and respected.

While the ancient churches called us unclean, Muslimahs like Aisha were quoted and respected.

The Taliban robbed muslim women of their rights, their dignity and their souls.  The robbed muslim men of benefit of learning the truth of the faith they practice.

As much as people complain about the evils of the west.  I just cannot understand why it would be more acceptable for Muslim men to do the same or worse.

I would think you would hold your own to a higher standard since they should know better.

Dubai

If we looked around and asked some of these women here, we would find that women's priorities are different in some parts of the world. What a woman envys or aspires for, say, in Manhattan, would turn out to be as shocking a concept for this woman, in that park, with here four cute daughters as much as some women not wanting to go beyond the elimentary tution is for us the other sdie of the Suez. 

Assalaamu alaikum:

I am striving to free myself of the western ways, which is difficult. I also have to train my spouse to lean the proper ways, which is difficult because he has become comfortable in the ways things have been. I have been the educated one that has basically been the breadwinner because of the extreme shortage of qualified nurses in the Us southwest, but it has been neccessary to move out of the country in order to afford to just live. The southern az desert town where I still work has become as pricey to live in as Malibu CA, and one cannot work in the service field and survive there. I receive a generous salary for my services, others with less education and no skills cannot.

In Mexico there is much poverty. I am currently working with doctors without borders as a liason for children with special education and health needs. Since I am both a nurse and teacher this helps. this work is voluntary, I still work in the US 2 days a week to meet our living needs, Alhamdullillah, there is so much to do! My children are raised, yet there are so many children that still need help.

Much of the poverty in this borderland area is created by the desire of many of the latino peoples to provide a manner in which to better the lives of their families. Over 279 people alone so far have died in the Camino del Diablo, the vicious merciless desert of the Arizona corridor in which "illegal immigrants" try to cross into the USA to obtain work so that they could send money back to their families. Some bodies are never identified.

That is the type of lure that the USA, the west, has on 3rd world countries such as Mexico. The sad thing is, these people have wonderful resources in their own country, and many of the white anglo americans despise these beautiful and proud people. Who would think that western ways are better? The traditional woman of Mexico is like that of a traditional muslim mother: She is the queen of her castle and all things go through her, her life is that of the well being of her children. How many americans are willing to risk their lives to provide for their families?

Interesting thought?

Bravo Duende, Bravo Angela and Hanan. Bravo Maryah!  This type of dialogue is what I started this thread for.  I just said to someone that I have often found the posts here written by women more intelligent and incisive, more coherent, more pertinent than those written by the males on this Forum.  This is not sexism.  This is not Feminism.  This is not any -ism any of us could conjure up.  It is simply a statement of fact.

I applaud you.  I hope that the men who visit this site will recognise your astuteness, your intelligence, your sensitivity, your projection into a future world where we all can win.

Thank you all, so much!  Cassie

Cassandra wrote: I hope that the men who visit this site will recognise your astuteness, your intelligence, your sensitivity, your projection into a future world where we all can win.

If any men reading this in any way feel threatened by these words, then perhaps they need to reappraise their take on what they think women are all about.

ak_m_f wrote: I am currently working with doctors without borders as a liason wow, I am working with engineers without borders!!

Hmmm sign wars, your on!

Cassi wrote: I hope that the men who visit this site will recognise your [named womens'] astuteness, your intelligence, your sensitivity, your projection into a future world where we all can win.

In response, Colin wrote: If any men reading this in any way feel threatened by these words, then perhaps they need to reappraise their take on what they think women are all about.

Lord Colin, I am quite disappointed to see that you are apparently unable to mount a more convincing defense of the burqa than this. 

Serv 

________________________________

I�m not anti-American.  I am only against 50.7% of the �popular� voting lot of them.

Hanan wrote: I believe that here is the difference between Western women and women of other cultures. I don�t believe that our accomplishments in the West are something most women in Afghanistan, for example, aspire to. Maybe they would want to continue to live and take care of their families, including their husbands, as their mothers and grandmothers did, without having their CHIOCES taken away from them. I don�t believe that most of these women would enroll in schools. If the Taliban would allow women to CHOOSE, then I think that most women would decide to be home-makers. Even after the �sexual revolution� many Western women chose to remain home-makers. It was only when the pressure to �keep up with the Joneses,� which in turn made living more expensive, made it impossible for women to stay at home, did they �decide� to work outside of their homes. I really believe that most working women would still be stay-at-home moms, stay-at-home wives, if the economic pressures on families weren�t so strong. It�s about CHOICES. Most Western women don�t have choices either, they HAVE TO work. Could the same be applied to men? Do men have CHOICES?

I so totally agree with this, the robbing of personal choice is what I would like to see end.  The cost of living and wages should be such that one member of the family can support the unit.  Western women have been forced by mounting national debt, personal debt and societal pressure to aquire things to enter the workplace and stay there.

However, equally sad is a state where a woman could not leave the home and go to work in circumstances that prevent any other form of income.

I remember having to care for an injured husband and being the only income.  What needs to happen for women of all nations and faiths is a fundemental respect for their abilities and choices.

You are right, most women in the rural areas of Afghanistan probably don't dream of moving to Kabul and becoming a doctor or stock broker.  But, should a girl learn in school about Petra, Jordan and feel the need to become an Archeologist and see the world.  She should have the freedom to dream and follow that dream.

Likewise, I would like to see a society in the West where women are freer to choose to say home with their children.  With a mortgage payment, two cars, utilities, food and all the other extras required in western society, its nearly impossible for women to focus on their families.

Scanning through these replies, I am struck by the fact that although as of today this thread has been visited by almost 1000 people, the overwhelming majority of posts and comments here are from women! The exceptions are notable and welcomed.  But where are the rest of you men???  Should I rename the thread "What are YOU afraid of?"

Or should I ask for it to be moved to the Women's section where it doesn't have to trouble you?

Consider yourselves challenged!

Cassi

Servetus wrote: Cassi wrote: I hope that the men who visit this site will recognise your [named womens'] astuteness, your intelligence, your sensitivity, your projection into a future world where we all can win. In response, Colin wrote: If any men reading this in any way feel threatened by these words, then perhaps they need to reappraise their take on what they think women are all about. Lord Colin, I am quite disappointed to see that you are apparently unable to mount a more convincing defense of the burqa than this.  Serv

Sir Serv, I really did try my best.. but I know when I�m outnumbered!

I think many people all over the world are just trying to get by in any system they are in. Me nand women.  We often have only limited control over things.

I saw an excellent piece on the news about education around the world. What children face to get even a basic education. And often in more rural, poorer areas the education is about the basics, reading, writing, math, hygeine etc. And it is also clear that if girls receive a basic education the standard of living increases for all, espcecially her children. Un fortunately war, famine, poverty and social up neavel prevents many from getting a basic education.

Hanan,

Its really sad.  People should not have to leave their homes to become better.  If they do leave for education or training, I really feel they have an obligation to return home and make a change.

Africa has been too long ignored in the industrial age.  Poverty, disease and death.  With a land as rich as Africa, poverty should not be an issue.  Disease is within world power to change and death is inevitable but not always necessary.

I read an article a few weeks ago about the education of women and its result on infant mortality.  Studies show the more educated women are, the lower the infant mortality. 

I've also recently read an article that shows the number of children with autism, ADHD, anxiety disorders and other behavioral and mental problems has dramatically increased with the women entering the workforce in the US.  Women are spending less time at home and starting their families later in life when they are at higher risk for certain birth defects. 

We wonder why there is a break down of moral values in this nation, but the children are being taught by their peers and by the television and Internet.  The world needs educated women, but it also needs the balance of mothers and traditional homes.

I have been "chastised" in private for my views.  But, since I do not response to said individual in Private I will post his comments and respond to them.

Brother X wrote: If you don't mind me commenting on the issue privately, as I barely came across what you wrote. A couple things I wanted to comment on based on what you wrote. First, I wanted to say that isn't it possible that your idea on women staying home is the result of a religious belief (subjective) rather than something objective and isolated from your own intellect? If Yes then the next obvious criticism would be that the fact that YOU think what is right based on your religious background (or social) may not apply to every woman? My responses will be in Blue.  First off, I spent many years as a non religious feminist.  My experiences are derived from my family life (I had the stay at home Mother and my youngest Sibling did not, there is a huge difference in our success and education) and from my travels around the world. For instance let's examine what you wrote my responses are in Red. You Said: "The cost of living and wages should be such that one member of the family can support the unit.  Western women have been forced by mounting national debt, personal debt and societal pressure to acquire things to enter the workplace and stay there." Allow me to comment on the later portion of your comment. What makes you think that just western women alone are forced in the job market? Men too are also "forced" to work. Also I think your idea of one being forced to work is quite skewed since, high prices and high cost are dependent on your geographical location rather than something that is clear across the board. Someone who works in Atlanta will not have the same housing cost as someone who lives in California. In California we pay property taxes (Approximately $2,000 per/month.... depending) as well as high taxes in other areas. Housing in the L.A area runs approximately between $500k-800k but this is not including location within the L.A area. Some areas are cheaper some a re lot higher and because of this if you are in a middle class you cannot possibly have one person just footing all the expenses. Also keep in mind that the houses that ran in those approximates are luxury these are decent housing. Just women in California are pressured to work but men as well. You are singling out men in the later portion of your paragraph as if women are the only ones because it effects both. In the beginning part of you paragraph you said that the cost of living should be such that one member of a family can be able to support the unit. Even if this were the case you'd still be opposed to that "person" being a woman? It's obvious based on your religious background that women should stay home and Cook and clean and do all those things. So that "person" which you didn't specify in gender is obviously that man you believe should work and support the family. First off your argument that location is key is false.  I grew up in a small town where property values are far less than California and the cost of living is such that a man making $30K a year could support his family comfortable.  But, guess what.  There are almost no jobs that pay enough for one parent (man or woman) to support the family.  There are even less opportunities for women as many of the major employers are factories and heavy construction.  The only jobs available to women are retail, food service and clerical (which in that area pays nothing).  Therefore, moving to a cheaper area does not free up one of the parents from having to work.  Secondly, yes, I am singling out the woman as the one who should not be "FORCED" to work.  Studies have shown that children who have a stay at home mother are healthier, happier and better adjusted.  However, I do feel its the MAN'S responsibility to care for his family.  Now, if the man is uneducated, disabled or otherwise unable to provide for his family, then I have no issue with the wife leaving the home to work.  Ideally, if the cost of living was reasonable and only one income was needed, then in those cases, the father should remain at home and take over the domestic duties.  Giving the young children the stability of their home.  If the children are of school age and are not at home during the day, then also there is no problem with the woman or man (whoever is the domestic) stepping out and getting a job to help the family if its needed.  You seem to have this misconception that a domestic is somehow unemployed and sits around doing nothing?  Have you ever wrangled three toddlers and tried to maintain a household?  I have SIX god children and I can tell you, the times I had the three toddlers were a nightmare to get things done around the house.  I understand why their working mother and father were never able to keep on top of everything.  And as for team work, yes, working parents can make it work, but hey, you've just worked 8-10 hours.  Wouldn't it be nice to have family dinner and spend time with the kids before you went to bed.  But no, dishes need done, laundry, vacuuming, dusting, homework.  By the time everything is done, the kids are off to bed and the parents are so tired they don't even have the energy for intimacy (also from a study).   You Also said: "However, equally sad is a state where a woman could not leave the home and go to work in circumstances that prevent any other form of income." True, I agree "I remember having to care for an injured husband and being the only income.  What needs to happen for women of all nations and faiths is a fundamental respect for their abilities and choices The bold part of your statement is true, in that all women of different nationalities and religions have a choice and in that choice a respect for their abilities. However in challenging your thought in the same context women should also have the choice to work which, judging from your comment you agree. However keep in mind that society as a whole is not forcing women to work, because like I mentioned before there are different variables in what puts an individual to work. In addition, keep in mind that many women believe working establishes their independence. A woman in Wyoming may not suffer the same financial issues in work as a woman in California or a woman who lives in New York. Also keep in mind that societal pressure of the family unit is not aimed just at women but men are effected as well. not every man gets a really good paying job. Again, a woman in Wyoming will have less opportunities for meaningful work as will her spouse, which is why the cost of living is less.  When jobs are plentiful and high paying, the cost of living increases.  Societal pressure is not as great on a man.  This is another flaw in your reasoning.  He's no longer expected to look for work that would support his family.  American society now only expects that he make enough that with his spouses income they are able to live comfortably.  However, he's not expected to pick up on the domestic chores.  There is still the image of the couch potato with his beer in hand watching football while his wife is in the kitchen doing dishes.  Only now, the woman also put in the 8 hours of hard work. In following, you said: "You are right, most women in the rural areas of Afghanistan probably don't dream of moving to Kabul and becoming a doctor or stock broker.  But, should a girl learn in school about Petra, Jordan and feel the need to become an Archaeologist and see the world.  She should have the freedom to dream and follow that dream." I agree that a young girl should have the choice to dream but one must also be realistic that choosing to not have goals at the expense of societal defiance can result in putting one in poverty or in the lowest art of society. I personally believe education is very liberating and very important in the developing person. A woman who makes the choice to stay just in the home and go nowhere and only know her own environment is isolating herself from global knowledge and to some extent, knowing herself. I believe that a society which advocates education and to allow both men and women to personally enrich themselves is good. The choice has always been there but its also a good thing that many societies condone education and giving options to people. Our societies are ever changing and we have become a society where we are past hunter-gatherer. In conclusion, you said: "Likewise, I would like to see a society in the West where women are freer to choose to say home with their children.  With a mortgage payment, two cars, utilities, food and all the other extras required in western society, its nearly impossible for women to focus on their families." Let me again comment on the bold. It obvious by you saying women should be more "freer" as in "more free" acknowledges that women already have choice already, which  contradict some of your earlier comments where you claim that society pressures women to act (or in this case work) in essence restricts them of choice. So in this case which is it? When you note in the latter in Bold about the materialistic things such as cars, utilities etc. You need to be clear in which society at least in America, which you are referring. True, that overall from the 50's on up prices have changed, but you have to take into consideration our country's population. Its not because we are such an advanced society that everything suddenly becomes expensive but its also the taking up on space which is meant  to curb population growth as well also including supply and demand. you say its nearly impossible for women to focus on their families right? Well, according to who? Have you asked every single working woman or depend on a websites poll? If so, which poll? There are plenty of women who do work and do take care of their children, but in taking into account your thought of what a family should be its obvious your thought is more religiously based than practical. And not saying that something religiously based isn't practical but at the same time the structure of the family around a growing society cannot be based on the structure of the family as it was 3000 years ago. We live in America. It's obvious you wouldn't see no problem with a man toiling in work and destroying his body yet have a fit if a woman does. Women do have choices as you admit clearly in bold, but wish that women have "more freedom" to stay at home. My information comes from studies, observations and having worked with troubled children.  My statement of freer is a statement that there are some women who have that luxury.  They lucked out and have educated husband with 6-7 figure salaries or found other ways to get around it.  I do know one stay at home Mom that's miserable. In order for her to be with her kids, they do not have a second car, no telephone or cable and they only buy thrift clothing.  She had to chose between being comfortable or being with her kids.  She sacrifices her comforts so that her children can have their mother before they go to kindergarten.  Its not about religion.  You keep making this about religion.  Its about mental well being.  You, I and Angel clashed over the whole single mom issue.  I'm not turning this into that argument.  Single parents leave the equation because there is no choice in those situations.  However, there are plenty of studies on child development that show all sorts of data.  Children are better off with one loving parent than a married couple with an abusive parent.  Children are better off with two loving parents than one stressed out loving parent.  Children are better off in rural areas with less crime and drugs.  Children are better educated in Urban areas where they have access to public museums and libraries.  In the end, you cannot argue that over the last 50 years that morality has decreased, crime has increased, debt (personal and governmental) has skyrocketed and families have all but become a thing of the past.  Divorce rates are over 50%, Unmarried births are at an all time high and poverty is spreading. God set up things to work a certain way for a reason.  As a religious person, I do believe his way is best.  But as a rational person, the proof is in the product.  Come to Utah and stay with me for a week.  I will show you the difference in a Mormon Child with two loving parents that honor their responsibilities and their callings as parents.  I will also show you a 17 year old boy who's mother died when he was 6 and the broken family because her husband had left her with no choice but to try to support the family with his refusal to find a decent job.  Now she's gone, guess what, the family is worse off. Mothers are the most important person in a child's life, they provide emotional and mental stimulation during key periods of development.  Fathers have a responsibility to their children to give them security, protection and provide for them.  You're refusal to see this makes me only pity your children and your wife.

Two gunmen on a motorbike killed the provincial director of Afghanistan's Ministry of Women's Affairs outside her home Monday in apparent retribution for her efforts to help educate women, officials said.

First of all its not absolutely clear from the cited article, as to why she was killed. She could have been colloborator of the American forces against the Afghan resistance. In fact, whether you like it or not, Taliban is supported by people in large parts of Afghanistan. The Taliban represented the Afghans better than the present govt. Even people in the American govt. now accept this. http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/articleshow/2091218.cms - http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/articleshow/2091218.cms

Islam does permit women to work outside home. But apprehensions of people (and I mean, both men and women, here) who oppose adoption of the Western culture are not unfounded. I don't want Islamic societies to be affected with decadent and immoral Western culture. Michael Noer highlighted some of the problems (with convincing proofs) prevalent in the Western society in the respectable Forbes magazine. http://in.rediff.com/money/2006/aug/24forbes1.htm - http://in.rediff.com/money/2006/aug/24forbes1.htm

So yes, unless Islamic sharia is fully implemented I oppose the right of women to work outside home in Islamic societies. I think Taliban would have also come round to that if they had got more time.

And if at all if there is any substantial change needed it should come from within the Afghan society without any external support.

There are many driving forces they push and pull people in different directions. There are several levels

-those women who work must work to survive and feed their families. Either they are on their own or their husband's income is not enough.

-those women who choose to work and end up neglecting their familiy's needs.

I am sure we meet all meet both of these women. In the first case the woman or family is doing so the basic needs are met, a place to live, food to eat, etc. The second is more of a product of the 'me' and 'I' generation we now live in. This culture affects both men and women with terribly consequences. (Though it is not as prevalent in small towns.)

I recently watched a very good Frontline piece on PBS about the current situation with the Taliban. What I concluded is

1. The west has no clue what it is doing, in a sense they don't know the culture, the way people operate, the values. etc.

2. Whereas there may be deliberate actions to de-stabalize, destroy etc., it is clear to me that what the US and west is doing there is producing more harm then good. Not because people hated the west, but that people don't like being bombed or attacked (quite normal) and it forces people to focus precious resources to fight rather then build and grow. Frankly no one gets educated in a time of war.

I was reading a travel forum and it was a topic about traveling to Afghanistan. This 21 year from UK old wrote in asking if it was safe to go there. She really wants to go. sHe was invited to be on this library project and to "help Afghani women learn their rights under the new constitution."  Never mind she spoke no languages of that region. And that is the issue to me by the "do gooders" is there is often a type of arrogance and superiority that comes into the equation. That somehow she could 1. really do any good 2. She knew and could explain the rights better then Afghani women themselves. It was a terribly paternalistic view.

You're right Hayfa, one of the worst factors in the continuing effort to help the Afghani people is the Hubris of those that think they know better.

In reality, we should not force our values on others.  If a country is happy with their dictorial monarchy, then so be it.  I'm of the opinion as long as a country is serving the needs and wants of its citizenry, then who cares if they call themselves democratic or socialist or islamic.

I seriously believe change and true help can only come to these people through ISLAMIC organizations.  Women's groups in Islam can help, men's groups, scholars. 

There is no way for a supposedly secular government with heavy Christian overtones can dictate the direction needed for these people.  Women always suffer the hardest when economies and governments are in chaos. 

But Hubris is the folly of many in todays world.  The "I know better" crowd.  I actually screamed in rage yesterday when I saw that the Westboro Baptist Church was going to protest the funerals of the little Amish girls killed in Pennsylvania.  They said these girls deserved it because of their false beliefs.  I was livid.  I grew up in Amish country and there are not a more loving and humble people.  They live without modern convenience and only educate to the 8th grade.  They live simple humble lives.

One thing that strikes me is that during their teen years, the Amish encourage their youth to rebel.  They encourage them to go out and see society and then to make their choice.  These kids get to see all the evils and goods of a modern society.  And here's the kicker.

85% OF THEM RETURN AND ARE BAPTISED AMISH!

That's a HUGE number of people that experience Modern society with no pressure from their families and still decide to return to a "backward" way of life.

I think that's something to think about.

You are a fundamentalist Muslim. Not everyone feels the way you do.

You are entitled to your feelings but for you live as you wish, you will have to stay in Iran. The rest of the globe may not feel the way you do about such things and you have no right to tell others what to feel or how to pray. You can't tell me how to live my life, you can you tell me how to pray. This is tolerance with choice.

USA1: who or what are you referring to?

Angela you are right about different ways of operating, governments etc. all of the language of "freedom" and "democracy" are just words, an excuse really. If not then we should go and "free" the Chinese or North Koreans.  

Th Amish are a very fascinting group of people. Whereas I cannot profess  or beleive what they do, I admire that they really do seek to live their values. They walk the walk so to speak.

And they bake the most amazing Shoo-fly pie I have EVER had.

They also make great quilts and very nice furniture, but its sooooo expensive. 

But, the real point is that No one is 100% right, 100% of the time. 

We are all human, there is not one person on this Green Earth that is infallible and innocent of all sin.  There are some who are better than others, but we are each guilty of something.  I really despise the crowd that tries to tell another they are wrong and impose their ideals on another.

I see this constantly here in Utah, watching the Street Preachers every conference weekend.  They are no better than the Taliban in their supposition of superiority and they are a direct reflection of the Evangelical Christian politics this country is engaged in.

I do think the women of Afghanistan would be better off without the Taliban.  But, I don't think they are safe from an artificial democracy in danger of collapsing the minute the US leaves.