B.H.

Here is a link to a thread that has a link to tons of information about ahadith:

http://www.islamicity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=3574&PN=4 - http://www.islamicity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=3574& ;PN=4

Have patience for it to download, there is lots and lots of info there.  Insha'allah, if you read through this stuff your question (and more) will be answered.

Peace, ummziba.

This doesn't answer my question

The Quran says it is a clear instruction.

We are told how to pray, to make hajj, wudu, ect.

As for things that we are commanded to do but given no specific instruction the Quran says that the consensus of the community can decide such.

We don't need hadith.

Bismillah irrahman irrahim

Assalamu alaikum

Just a simple question bro, do you know how many Prophets alaihis salaam were sent? and, how many Books?

Wassalam

fatima wrote: Bismillah irrahman irrahim Assalamu alaikum Just a simple question bro, do you know how many Prophets alaihis salaam were sent? and, how many Books? Wassalam

No, other than what the Quran says.  It is all I need.

Bismillah irrahman irrahim

Assalamu alaikum

In that case, im sure you remember sister amah posting some ayaat dealing with this matter in http://www.islamicity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=5863&PN=2&TPN=2 - http://www.islamicity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=5863& ;PN=2&TPN=2

If you truely want to follow Holy Quran, im sure you wont want to ignore all these ayaat and many more which inshaAllah you are going to come across reading the Holy Quran.

Wassalam

fatima wrote: Bismillah irrahman irrahim Assalamu alaikum In that case, im sure you remember sister amah posting some ayaat dealing with this matter in http://www.islamicity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=5863&PN=2&TPN=2 - http://www.islamicity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=5863& ; ;PN=2&TPN=2 If you truely want to follow Holy Quran, im sure you wont want to ignore all these ayaat and many more which inshaAllah you are going to come across reading the Holy Quran. Wassalam

I do not have time now but will look at your link later.

Have a blessed day!

Bismillah irrahman irrahim

Assalamu alaikum

My brother in islam, The Holy Quran is only the word of Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala. It has nothing much personal about Sayyidina Muhammad sallallahu alaihe wassalam. I heard a scholar once saying, if you read Holy Quran, you feel it more to be Book regarding Musa alaihis salaam rather than Sayyidina Muhammad sallallahu alaihe wassalam. But then again alhamdulillah we got quite authentic collection of ahadith and sirah books.

wassalam

B.H. wrote: You obey Allah and the Prophet by obeying what they say in the Quran.

2:187

187. It is made lawful for you to have sexual relations with your wives on the night of As-Saum (the fasts). They are L�bas [i.e. body cover, or screen, or Sakan, (i.e. you enjoy the pleasure of living with her - as in Verse 7:189) Tafsir At-Tabar�], for you and you are the same for them. All�h knows that you used to deceive yourselves, so He turned to you (accepted your repentance) and forgave you. So now have sexual relations with them and seek that which All�h has ordained for you (offspring), and eat and drink until the white thread (light) of dawn appears to you distinct from the black thread (darkness of night), then complete your Saum (fast) till the nightfall. And do not have sexual relations with them (your wives) while you are in I'tik�f (i.e. confining oneself in a mosque for prayers and invocations leaving the worldly activities) in the mosques. These are the limits (set) by All�h, so approach them not. Thus does All�h make clear His Ay�t (proofs, evidences, lessons, signs, revelations, verses, laws, legal and illegal things, All�h's set limits, orders, etc.) to mankind that they may become Al-Muttaq�n (the pious - see V.2:2).

The prohibition referred to in this verse (underlined) that Allah has removed is not mentioned in the Quran.

1) The order was given by the Prophet (saw)

2) The order is not part of the recited "wahy" (revelation)

3) The followers obeyed it, as if it had been part of the recited "wahy".

This proves:

a) not every command came through the recited wahy, and b) the Prophet (saw) gave commands, that were given by Allah, and were binding, as if it were in the recited wahy.

So this is a case where Muslims followed what Allah and His mesenger stated, and it was not in the Quran.

Therefore:

Following Allah and His messenger does not mean following only the Quran. 

Andalus wrote: B.H. wrote: You obey Allah and the Prophet by obeying what they say in the Quran. 2:187 187. It is made lawful for you to have sexual relations with your wives on the night of As-Saum (the fasts). They are L�bas [i.e. body cover, or screen, or Sakan, (i.e. you enjoy the pleasure of living with her - as in Verse 7:189) Tafsir At-Tabar�], for you and you are the same for them. All�h knows that you used to deceive yourselves, so He turned to you (accepted your repentance) and forgave you. So now have sexual relations with them and seek that which All�h has ordained for you (offspring), and eat and drink until the white thread (light) of dawn appears to you distinct from the black thread (darkness of night), then complete your Saum (fast) till the nightfall. And do not have sexual relations with them (your wives) while you are in I'tik�f (i.e. confining oneself in a mosque for prayers and invocations leaving the worldly activities) in the mosques. These are the limits (set) by All�h, so approach them not. Thus does All�h make clear His Ay�t (proofs, evidences, lessons, signs, revelations, verses, laws, legal and illegal things, All�h's set limits, orders, etc.) to mankind that they may become Al-Muttaq�n (the pious - see V.2:2). The prohibition referred to in this verse (underlined) that Allah has removed is not mentioned in the Quran. 1) The order was given by the Prophet (saw) 2) The order is not part of the recited "wahy" (revelation) 3) The followers obeyed it, as if it had been part of the recited "wahy". This proves: a) not every command came through the recited wahy, and b) the Prophet (saw) gave commands, that were given by Allah, and were binding, as if it were in the recited wahy. So this is a case where Muslims followed what Allah and His mesenger stated, and it was not in the Quran. Therefore: Following Allah and His messenger does not mean following only the Quran.

thank you very much for your kind reply.

I hope you are doing well Andalus.

I do not see where the text supports your idea.  The way I see it, the Prophet was correcting a false doctrine being taught without authority.  Some people were saying it was a sin to sleep with their wives the night of the fasts, which Allah never commanded be done.  The Prophet isn't invalidating an old command from Allah at all ,but refuting a false doctrine.

Bismillah irrahman irrahim

Assalamu alaikum

Lets take example from our daily lives, when a new born is born, there are few things done to bring him under the shade of islam. The adhan, shaving off head and paying amount equal to its weight to poor and aqiqah. If Allah subhbanahu wa ta'ala has only granted the new soul a limited time then adhan becomes very important as you dont pray funeral if adhan is not done.  Child growing up, when does he or she needs to start covering up awrah and what is awrah for each and who does it differ for. When do they need to start praying and fasting? I can not find any of this in detail in Holy Quran, all of the ruling concerning these issues are from ahadith.

Take prayer, Holy Quran merely tells the timings, its raka'at, different parts and what to recite in each part all this is understood through ahadith. Zakaah and its details, and so many other rulings that come from ahadith. Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala gives the main orders and rulings in Holy Quran and it was Sayyidina Muhammad sallallahu alaihe wassalam who gave details. We are been told to follow the Messenger sallallahu alaihe wassalam but even if that was not the case, would you rather not follow a way which is proven way to please Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala?

wassalam

B.H. wrote: My answer is that you follow the consensus of the community on issues that we are not given exact details on.

Assalamu alaikum,

B.H., might I just comment that the consensus of the community has brought such things as legalized homosexual marriage (many countries) and females allowed to go topless (Ontario, Canada)....just to name two examples.

Sometimes the consensus of the community can be terribly misguided.  The true guidance comes from Qur'an and Sunnah of the Prophet.

Peace, ummziba

P.S. don't bother to say that neither of these examples are in so-called Muslim countries, you need not look too hard in many so-called Muslim countries to see the communities doing many un-Islamic things that there seems to be consensus about!

ummziba wrote: B.H. wrote: My answer is that you follow the consensus of the community on issues that we are not given exact details on. Assalamu alaikum, B.H., might I just comment that the consensus of the community has brought such things as legalized homosexual marriage (many countries) and females allowed to go topless (Ontario, Canada)....just to name two examples. Sometimes the consensus of the community can be terribly misguided.  The true guidance comes from Qur'an and Sunnah of the Prophet. Peace, ummziba P.S. don't bother to say that neither of these examples are in so-called Muslim countries, you need not look too hard in many so-called Muslim countries to see the communities doing many un-Islamic things that there seems to be consensus about!

Of course the consensus of the community can never allow anything explicitly forbidden in the Quran nor can it set aside clearly given instructions concerning the likes of ritual and morals.

Bismillah irrahman irrahim

Assalamu alaikum

B.H wrote, 'Of course the consensus of the community can never allow anything explicitly forbidden in the Quran nor can it set aside clearly given instructions concerning the likes of ritual and morals'.

Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala says in Holy Quran, '[Shakir 68:4] And most surely you conform (yourself) to sublime morality'.

So many other places when there is command of following the Messenger of Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala (sallallahu alaihe wassalam) and we can find His sunnah regarding majority of matters, then what is the reason for not following them and how would we be really following the Holy Quran if we choose to ignore some parts of it?

How can consensus of some scholars be equal or better than the decision of a Prophet when message comes to the Prophet day and night from the Supreme authority?

wassalam

B.H. wrote: Andalus wrote: B.H. wrote: You obey Allah and the Prophet by obeying what they say in the Quran. 2:187 187. It is made lawful for you to have sexual relations with your wives on the night of As-Saum (the fasts). They are L�bas [i.e. body cover, or screen, or Sakan, (i.e. you enjoy the pleasure of living with her - as in Verse 7:189) Tafsir At-Tabar�], for you and you are the same for them. All�h knows that you used to deceive yourselves, so He turned to you (accepted your repentance) and forgave you. So now have sexual relations with them and seek that which All�h has ordained for you (offspring), and eat and drink until the white thread (light) of dawn appears to you distinct from the black thread (darkness of night), then complete your Saum (fast) till the nightfall. And do not have sexual relations with them (your wives) while you are in I'tik�f (i.e. confining oneself in a mosque for prayers and invocations leaving the worldly activities) in the mosques. These are the limits (set) by All�h, so approach them not. Thus does All�h make clear His Ay�t (proofs, evidences, lessons, signs, revelations, verses, laws, legal and illegal things, All�h's set limits, orders, etc.) to mankind that they may become Al-Muttaq�n (the pious - see V.2:2). The prohibition referred to in this verse (underlined) that Allah has removed is not mentioned in the Quran. 1) The order was given by the Prophet (saw) 2) The order is not part of the recited "wahy" (revelation) 3) The followers obeyed it, as if it had been part of the recited "wahy". This proves: a) not every command came through the recited wahy, and b) the Prophet (saw) gave commands, that were given by Allah, and were binding, as if it were in the recited wahy. So this is a case where Muslims followed what Allah and His mesenger stated, and it was not in the Quran. Therefore: Following Allah and His messenger does not mean following only the Quran.      thank you very much for your kind reply.   I hope you are doing well Andalus.   I do not see where the text supports your idea.  The way I see it, the Prophet was correcting a false doctrine being taught without authority.  Some people were saying it was a sin to sleep with their wives the night of the fasts, which Allah never commanded be done.  The Prophet isn't invalidating an old command from Allah at all ,but refuting a false doctrine.

Greetings.

1) The prophet gave an order.

2) Breaking it was a sin.

3) Something cannot be a sin unless it is made such by Allah,

4) The actual command was not in the Quran.

What false doctrine was the prophet (saw) correcting?

People were not saying it was a sin, Allah  said it was a sin,

All�h knows that you used to deceive yourselves, so He turned to you (accepted your repentance) and forgave you. So now have sexual relations with them and seek that which All�h has ordained for you (offspring),

How can He forgive something that was not a sin?

 He then removed the stipulation that was placed on them by the Prophet (saw), which was a command that was backed by Allah and considered a sin if not followed.

This is a clear example of a command not being in the Quran but being held up like any other command found in the Quran.

I am unable to follow your objection?

fatima wrote: Bismillah irrahman irrahim Assalamu alaikum B.H wrote, 'Of course the consensus of the community can never allow anything explicitly forbidden in the Quran nor can it set aside clearly given instructions concerning the likes of ritual and morals'. Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala says in Holy Quran, '[Shakir 68:4] And most surely you conform (yourself) to sublime morality'. So many other places when there is command of following the Messenger of Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala (sallallahu alaihe wassalam) and we can find His sunnah regarding majority of matters, then what is the reason for not following them and how would we be really following the Holy Quran if we choose to ignore some parts of it? How can consensus of some scholars be equal or better than the decision of a Prophet when message comes to the Prophet day and night from the Supreme authority? wassalam

You have to establish that following Allah is somehow different from following the prophet.

The Prophet was inspired as far as giving us the Holy Quran but he was not necessarily inspired in all of his actions.  In fact, there are times he is actually rebuked by Allah in the Quran itself.

I still see no difference between equating obedience to Allah as obedience to the Prophet.  It would be like the president of a company saying to do a certain thing, and tells one of his managers to tell the workers to do that certain thing.  The workers could then say that when they followed the command they were obeying the president and the manager.

The Quran has allowed room for the consensus of the community on certain issues.  It is not my problem if some people object to that.

This is my response to Brother Andalus.

Greetings.

1) The prophet gave an order.

You assume that he gave an order that was later rescinded by the text in question.  I see nothing in the Holy Quran itself that lends itself that such is in fact the case.  Where does it explicitly state that the Prophet forbade having relations with one's wife during the fast and that this verse is a reversal of that order?

2) Breaking it was a sin.

You are assuming something the text does not say.  You are assuming that the prophet gave an order that Allah later abrogated.  It says that they were deceiving themselves.  If they were following a command of the prophet how could it be said they were deceiving themselves?  My inference from the text is that the people somehow got the idea falsely that they could not have relations with their wives during the fast and the Prophet was refuting this false doctrine.

3) Something cannot be a sin unless it is made such by Allah,

I agree.  However, something cannot be a sin if it is commanded by Allah either.  These people were following an error and if Allah through the Prophet had commanded the people not to have relations with their wives they would not have been said to be deceiving themselves.

4) The actual command was not in the Quran.

But you have not proven from the text that such a command was in fact given.

What false doctrine was the prophet (saw) correcting?

He was correcting the false idea that people could not have relations with their wives during the time frame being spoken of.

People were not saying it was a sin, Allah  said it was a sin,

Where does the actual text say this?

All�h knows that you used to deceive yourselves, so He turned to you (accepted your repentance) and forgave you. So now have sexual relations with them and seek that which All�h has ordained for you (offspring),

How can He forgive something that was not a sin?

That's the point.  If Allah or the prophet through Allah's approval had ordered men to abstain from their wives no one would be committing a sin.

 He then removed the stipulation that was placed on them by the Prophet (saw), which was a command that was backed by Allah and considered a sin if not followed.

But where does it actually say this in the text?  How can they be said to be deceived if they are following Allah in totally abstaining from their wives?  I can understand that it could be said that they deceived themselves if they were following a command that was falsey believed to be Allah's will.  Anyway, you cannot show me in the actual text that it is speaking of what you think it is speaking of.

This is a clear example of a command not being in the Quran but being held up like any other command found in the Quran.

I humbly disagree.

I am unable to follow your objection?

I hope this response cleared things up a bit.

As Salamu Alaikum BH

Wow you really gave me something to thing about.

Do you really believe that we can practices our religious duties by following the consensus of the community on issues that we are not given exact details on in the Glorious Qur'an without referring them to the Sunnah.

Does that mean that if we decided amongst the members here in IC, due to our busy lives we now wish to pray only twice daily not five time, then we can decided by consensus and go ahead, or due to the affluence in most societies now days we only need to pay 1% zakat every 10 years. Audho Billahe minash Shaitanir-Rajim! Do you honestly believe that Allah Subhanahu wa Ta�ala will accept such Ibadah from us.

Dear brother/sister (not sure if you are a brother or sister) I would suggest that you go back to the basis and I mean here the first pillar of Islam.

Remember we took the Shahadah: �I bear witness that there is No God but Allah and that Muhammad is His Messenger.�

The Sunnah/Hadith are classified- some if we do not follow them, we are committing a sin and others if you do follow them, we stand to gain reward from Allah Subhanahu wa Ta�ala.

The Ahadith relating to the way we worship Allah Subhanahu wa Ta�ala like Salah, Zakat etc if we do not follow the method the Prophet (Sallallahu Alayhi wa Sallam) taught us to pray, etc we are committing a sin and our Ibadah will not be accepted.

On the other hand we have Ahadith showing the preferences of the Prophet (Sallallahu Alayhi wa Sallam) which if we follow them, Alhamdulillah we will be greatly rewarded and if we do not practice them then Insha Allah it is okay we do not get punished.

Let me give you an example: Take Salatul-Dhuhr � the Fard (obligatory) is 4 Rakat � if we pray two Rakat or five Rakat it will not be accepted and we will be punished for our negligence. On the other hand we know that the Prophet prayed some Sunnah Rakat before and after the 4 Fard. Now there we have a choice if we wish to pray the 2 Rakat before and 2 Rakat after that is our wish, no punishment here but ample reward. If one desires to increase the Voluntary (Sunnah/Nawafil) prayers Alhamdulillah that is good for the individual. If someone has the time and wishes to pray 10 Rakat after the 4 Fard no one can stop him neither can anyone one tell him that he is committing a sin by doing so. On the other hand if someone just prays the 4 Rakat and is on his way out of the Masjid- no one can tell him that he is committing a sin by not praying the 2 Rakat Sunnah after it. So you see the Hadith are classified, so I suggest you take the time to learn and distinguish what is necessary and what is not, not blankly say WE DON�T NEED HADITH ONLY QUR'AN

And remember what Allah Subhanahu wa Ta�ala has stated in the Glorious Qur'an

And whoever contradicts and opposes the Messenger after the right path has been shown clearly to him, and follows other than the believers' way, We shall keep him in the path he has chosen, and burn him in Hell what an evil destination! (Surah An-Nisa� 4: 115)

Whatsoever the Messenger gives you, take it. And whatsoever he forbids you, abstain from it.  (Surah Al-Hashr 59: 7)

Do you then accept part of the Glorious Qur'an and deny part?

May Allah Subhanahu wa Ta�ala save us from the whisperings of Shaitan and our own whims and desires and guide us to the truth and keep us on HIS Siratul-Mustaqeem. Ameen!

Wa Alaikum Salam

Dear Alwardah,

I will be back later and respond to you post hopefully tonight.  Good day and may all of you be blessed by the Almighty.

B.H. wrote: This is my response to Brother Andalus.   Greetings. 1) The prophet gave an order. You assume that he gave an order that was later rescinded by the text in question.  I see nothing in the Holy Quran itself that lends itself that such is in fact the case.  Where does it explicitly state that the Prophet forbade having relations with one's wife during the fast and that this verse is a reversal of that order? 2) Breaking it was a sin. You are assuming something the text does not say.  You are assuming that the prophet gave an order that Allah later abrogated.  It says that they were deceiving themselves.  If they were following a command of the prophet how could it be said they were deceiving themselves?  My inference from the text is that the people somehow got the idea falsely that they could not have relations with their wives during the fast and the Prophet was refuting this false doctrine. 3) Something cannot be a sin unless it is made such by Allah, I agree.  However, something cannot be a sin if it is commanded by Allah either.  These people were following an error and if Allah through the Prophet had commanded the people not to have relations with their wives they would not have been said to be deceiving themselves. 4) The actual command was not in the Quran. But you have not proven from the text that such a command was in fact given. What false doctrine was the prophet (saw) correcting? He was correcting the false idea that people could not have relations with their wives during the time frame being spoken of. People were not saying it was a sin, Allah  said it was a sin, Where does the actual text say this? All�h knows that you used to deceive yourselves, so He turned to you (accepted your repentance) and forgave you. So now have sexual relations with them and seek that which All�h has ordained for you (offspring), How can He forgive something that was not a sin? That's the point.  If Allah or the prophet through Allah's approval had ordered men to abstain from their wives no one would be committing a sin.  He then removed the stipulation that was placed on them by the Prophet (saw), which was a command that was backed by Allah and considered a sin if not followed. But where does it actually say this in the text?  How can they be said to be deceived if they are following Allah in totally abstaining from their wives?  I can understand that it could be said that they deceived themselves if they were following a command that was falsey believed to be Allah's will.  Anyway, you cannot show me in the actual text that it is speaking of what you think it is speaking of. This is a clear example of a command not being in the Quran but being held up like any other command found in the Quran. I humbly disagree. I am unable to follow your objection? I hope this response cleared things up a bit.

Greetings.

Before I continue, I was hoping for more clarity.

So you agree that someone told the Muslims to do something, which was related to having sex on the evenings of Ramadan.

You believe that the Muslims followed some other source.

You believe that this act was the sin (not having sex with their wives during the evenings at Ramadan), and Allah forgave them for this act (not having sex with their wives on Ramadan).

Does this sum up yuor belief?

Bismillah irrahman irrahim

Assalamu alaikum

Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala says in Holy Quran, '3:103] And hold fast, all together, by the rope which Allah (stretches out for you), and be not divided among yourselves;

Every time i read things like this and i think why do we not see the bigger picture. All you need to do is read the history and see how sahabah (ra) and salhaf were, there were not, just this and just that group for them, they were muslims. The laws are made from Holy Quran and Sunnah, thats how it always was from the day one. Brother all we need to know is Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala is close to us than our jugular vein, He knows our intention, if we are sincere He would guide us to His way. But if we are looking for an easy way out and means to give up few things because it is too hard to do this in this day and age. Then still the matter is between you and your Lord, He will judge you and He is Most Just Judge.

If you think that you can work out every Fard through Holy Quran alone then May Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala bless you with wisdom and understanding to do that.

wassalam

Br. Andalus wrote:

Greetings.

Before I continue, I was hoping for more clarity.

So you agree that someone told the Muslims to do something, which was related to having sex on the evenings of Ramadan.

You believe that the Muslims followed some other source.

You believe that this act was the sin (not having sex with their wives during the evenings at Ramadan), and Allah forgave them for this act (not having sex with their wives on Ramadan).

Does this sum up yuor belief?

Yes, the Muslims were being deceived into believing something was Allah's will that was not in fact the case.  The Prophet refuted the false doctrine by telling the people they could have relations with their wives at night during the fast.

fatima wrote: Bismillah irrahman irrahim Assalamu alaikum Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala says in Holy Quran, '3:103] And hold fast, all together, by the rope which Allah (stretches out for you), and be not divided among yourselves; Every time i read things like this and i think why do we not see the bigger picture. All you need to do is read the history and see how sahabah (ra) and salhaf were, there were not, just this and just that group for them, they were muslims. The laws are made from Holy Quran and Sunnah, thats how it always was from the day one. Brother all we need to know is Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala is close to us than our jugular vein, He knows our intention, if we are sincere He would guide us to His way. But if we are looking for an easy way out and means to give up few things because it is too hard to do this in this day and age. Then still the matter is between you and your Lord, He will judge you and He is Most Just Judge. If you think that you can work out every Fard through Holy Quran alone then May Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala bless you with wisdom and understanding to do that. wassalam

Thank you for your kind words sister Fatima.

Here is my reply to Alwardah.

As Salamu Alaikum BH

Wow you really gave me something to thing about.

Do you really believe that we can practices our religious duties by following the consensus of the community on issues that we are not given exact details on in the Glorious Qur'an without referring them to the Sunnah.

Yes, some things are a matter of opinion and not explicitly stated in the Quran.

Does that mean that if we decided amongst the members here in IC, due to our busy lives we now wish to pray only twice daily not five time, then we can decided by consensus and go ahead, or due to the affluence in most societies now days we only need to pay 1% zakat every 10 years. Audho Billahe minash Shaitanir-Rajim! Do you honestly believe that Allah Subhanahu wa Ta�ala will accept such Ibadah from us.

If you disagree with my conclusion then show me in the Quran where I am wrong.

Dear brother/sister (not sure if you are a brother or sister) I would suggest that you go back to the basis and I mean here the first pillar of Islam.

The first pillar in Islam is understood in principle from reading the Holy Quran.  the Quran teaches that Allah is God and Muhammed is his prophet.

Remember we took the Shahadah: �I bear witness that there is No God but Allah and that Muhammad is His Messenger.�

Though not a false statement, where in the Quran is the shahada actually required?

The Sunnah/Hadith are classified- some if we do not follow them, we are committing a sin and others if you do follow them, we stand to gain reward from Allah Subhanahu wa Ta�ala.

This is yet to be proven.

The Ahadith relating to the way we worship Allah Subhanahu wa Ta�ala like Salah, Zakat etc if we do not follow the method the Prophet (Sallallahu Alayhi wa Sallam) taught us to pray, etc we are committing a sin and our Ibadah will not be accepted.

Again, this is yet to be proven.  It is not enough to cite some scholar as saying such is the case.  The scholar needs to actually produce his evidence that such is true.

On the other hand we have Ahadith showing the preferences of the Prophet (Sallallahu Alayhi wa Sallam) which if we follow them, Alhamdulillah we will be greatly rewarded and if we do not practice them then Insha Allah it is okay we do not get punished.

I have read that many hadith are open to question.  Also, while it is affirmed the hadith in most cases are reliable for doctrine and practice, I have not actually been shown the evidence that they are in fact reliable.  Again, I don't want to hear a scholar actually affirm such is true but prove it true with evidence.  How do we know that the hadith are reliable?  How do we know that the chain of narration has not been faked?  Even if the hcain of narration is reliable how do we know that a liar did not deceive someone into believing a lie?

Let me give you an example: Take Salatul-Dhuhr � the Fard (obligatory) is 4 Rakat � if we pray two Rakat or five Rakat it will not be accepted and we will be punished for our negligence. On the other hand we know that the Prophet prayed some Sunnah Rakat before and after the 4 Fard. Now there we have a choice if we wish to pray the 2 Rakat before and 2 Rakat after that is our wish, no punishment here but ample reward. If one desires to increase the Voluntary (Sunnah/Nawafil) prayers Alhamdulillah that is good for the individual. If someone has the time and wishes to pray 10 Rakat after the 4 Fard no one can stop him neither can anyone one tell him that he is committing a sin by doing so. On the other hand if someone just prays the 4 Rakat and is on his way out of the Masjid- no one can tell him that he is committing a sin by not praying the 2 Rakat Sunnah after it. So you see the Hadith are classified, so I suggest you take the time to learn and distinguish what is necessary and what is not, not blankly say WE DON�T NEED HADITH ONLY QUR'AN

Please do not take offense, but the claim that hadith is of equal in value to the Holy Quran has not been established in this thread yet.  Until it is, citing such hadith is of no authority in determining how and when we should pray.  Prove the hadith is an authority first, then we can discuss the intricacies of what the differing hadith have to say on a matter.

And remember what Allah Subhanahu wa Ta�ala has stated in the Glorious Qur'an

And whoever contradicts and opposes the Messenger after the right path has been shown clearly to him, and follows other than the believers' way, We shall keep him in the path he has chosen, and burn him in Hell what an evil destination! (Surah An-Nisa� 4: 115)

I have already responded to this when replying to one of Sister Fatima's posts.  When you obey Allah, you are obeying the prophet who gave you Allah's words.

Whatsoever the Messenger gives you, take it. And whatsoever he forbids you, abstain from it.  (Surah Al-Hashr 59: 7)

Yes, because whatever the Messenger gives you is from Allah and revealed in the Quran.

Do you then accept part of the Glorious Qur'an and deny part?

No.  I accept the Quran and what is says about ruling by consultation regarding issues not specifically addressed in the Quran.

May Allah Subhanahu wa Ta�ala save us from the whisperings of Shaitan and our own whims and desires and guide us to the truth and keep us on HIS Siratul-Mustaqeem. Ameen!

Amen!!!

Wa Alaikum Salam

Peace to you

B.H. wrote: Br. Andalus wrote:   Greetings. Before I continue, I was hoping for more clarity. So you agree that someone told the Muslims to do something, which was related to having sex on the evenings of Ramadan. You believe that the Muslims followed some other source. You believe that this act was the sin (not having sex with their wives during the evenings at Ramadan), and Allah forgave them for this act (not having sex with their wives on Ramadan). Does this sum up yuor belief?   Yes, the Muslims were being deceived into believing something was Allah's will that was not in fact the case.  The Prophet refuted the false doctrine by telling the people they could have relations with their wives at night during the fast.

One more item.

How do you know what the prophet stated? Where did you get his statement from?

Andalus wrote: B.H. wrote: Br. Andalus wrote:   Greetings. Before I continue, I was hoping for more clarity. So you agree that someone told the Muslims to do something, which was related to having sex on the evenings of Ramadan. You believe that the Muslims followed some other source. You believe that this act was the sin (not having sex with their wives during the evenings at Ramadan), and Allah forgave them for this act (not having sex with their wives on Ramadan). Does this sum up yuor belief?   Yes, the Muslims were being deceived into believing something was Allah's will that was not in fact the case.  The Prophet refuted the false doctrine by telling the people they could have relations with their wives at night during the fast. One more item. How do you know what the prophet stated? Where did you get his statement from?

I got it from reading the Holy Quran.

B.H. wrote: Andalus wrote: B.H. wrote: Br. Andalus wrote:   Greetings. Before I continue, I was hoping for more clarity. So you agree that someone told the Muslims to do something, which was related to having sex on the evenings of Ramadan. You believe that the Muslims followed some other source. You believe that this act was the sin (not having sex with their wives during the evenings at Ramadan), and Allah forgave them for this act (not having sex with their wives on Ramadan). Does this sum up yuor belief?   Yes, the Muslims were being deceived into believing something was Allah's will that was not in fact the case.  The Prophet refuted the false doctrine by telling the people they could have relations with their wives at night during the fast. One more item. How do you know what the prophet stated? Where did you get his statement from? I got it from reading the Holy Quran.

So may I assume that you feel the Quran is the word of the Prophet or the word of Allah?

Although you might feel I am nit picking, or wrestling with nuances, I want to make sure I am clear, given the disparity between many from your line of thinking (ideology), I am trying to avoid presumptions.

There is a difference between saying that the Quran is the word of Allah and the word of the prophet vs, the word of Allah transmitted and taught by the prophet.

The verse in question is Allah delaing with the believers, as far as I can see?

(I am only seeking clarity so I do not make assumptions about your beliefs prior to my reply that I shall contribute)

Thanks

As Salamu Alaikum

I am now truly lost of words, BH and I am not sure how to reply to your comments, so I am not going to reply point by point, it will serve no purpose.

For me and many like me, the way to worship Allah Subhanahu wa Ta�ala is to refer to the Glorious Qur'an and Sunnah. The details not found in the Glorious Qur'an are found in the Sunnah. Simple.

You prefer to take the opinion of men, I prefer to take from the teachings of our Prophet (Sallallahu Alayhi wa Sallam). A MAJOR DIFFERENCE in our understanding of Islamic Shariah and practicing our Islamic duties.

Maybe I am wrong, but from what you have said, I assume that you do not pray your Salah like mainstream Muslims. The five pillars of Islam are from the Sunnah not Glorious Qur'an as you so rightly pointed out and the way to pray is also from the Sunnah. So, please you show me from the Qur'an the complete manner of Salah. How should I establish the Prayer? Allah say �Iqamat-as-salat�  HOW??????????

I already quoted two out of the many Ayah from Glorious Qur'an where Allah Subhanahu wa Ta�ala orders us to obey His Messenger (Sallallahu Alayhi wa Sallam). How do you obey the Prophet (Sallallahu Alayhi wa Sallam) today? How do you implement the Ayah referring to the Prophet (Sallallahu Alayhi wa Sallam) in your daily life? Do you just ignore them?

All I can read from your response is that it is : Again, this is yet to be proven. 

Andalus wrote: B.H. wrote: Andalus wrote: B.H. wrote: Br. Andalus wrote:   Greetings. Before I continue, I was hoping for more clarity. So you agree that someone told the Muslims to do something, which was related to having sex on the evenings of Ramadan. You believe that the Muslims followed some other source. You believe that this act was the sin (not having sex with their wives during the evenings at Ramadan), and Allah forgave them for this act (not having sex with their wives on Ramadan). Does this sum up yuor belief?   Yes, the Muslims were being deceived into believing something was Allah's will that was not in fact the case.  The Prophet refuted the false doctrine by telling the people they could have relations with their wives at night during the fast. One more item. How do you know what the prophet stated? Where did you get his statement from? I got it from reading the Holy Quran. So may I assume that you feel the Quran is the word of the Prophet or the word of Allah? Although you might feel I am nit picking, or wrestling with nuances, I want to make sure I am clear, given the disparity between many from your line of thinking (ideology), I am trying to avoid presumptions. There is a difference between saying that the Quran is the word of Allah and the word of the prophet vs, the word of Allah transmitted and taught by the prophet. The verse in question is Allah delaing with the believers, as far as I can see? (I am only seeking clarity so I do not make assumptions about your beliefs prior to my reply that I shall contribute) Thanks

Allah told the prophet what to say to the Muslims.

Alwardah wrote: As Salamu Alaikum I am now truly lost of words, BH and I am not sure how to reply to your comments, so I am not going to reply point by point, it will serve no purpose. For me and many like me, the way to worship Allah Subhanahu wa Ta�ala is to refer to the Glorious Qur'an and Sunnah. The details not found in the Glorious Qur'an are found in the Sunnah. Simple. You prefer to take the opinion of men, I prefer to take from the teachings of our Prophet (Sallallahu Alayhi wa Sallam). A MAJOR DIFFERENCE in our understanding of Islamic Shariah and practicing our Islamic duties. Maybe I am wrong, but from what you have said, I assume that you do not pray your Salah like mainstream Muslims. The five pillars of Islam are from the Sunnah not Glorious Qur'an as you so rightly pointed out and the way to pray is also from the Sunnah. So, please you show me from the Qur'an the complete manner of Salah. How should I establish the Prayer? Allah say �Iqamat-as-salat�  HOW?????????? I already quoted two out of the many Ayah from Glorious Qur'an where Allah Subhanahu wa Ta�ala orders us to obey His Messenger (Sallallahu Alayhi wa Sallam). How do you obey the Prophet (Sallallahu Alayhi wa Sallam) today? How do you implement the Ayah referring to the Prophet (Sallallahu Alayhi wa Sallam) in your daily life? Do you just ignore them? All I can read from your response is that it is : Again, this is yet to be proven.    If I followed your way of thinking that I can easily ask that it still has to be proven that the Glorious Qur'an is from Allah. What prove to you have that it is 100% from Allah Subhanahu wa Ta�ala. Audho Billahe minash Shaitanir-Rajim! Do you see how dangerous this way of thinking really is? I would like to add only one more point in conclusion: None of us who believe that the Islamic Shariah is based on the Glorious Qur'an and Sunnah ever claim that the Qur'an and Hadith are on par.  We believe without a shadow of doubt that The Glorious Qur'an is Flawless and Allah Subhanahu wa Ta�ala has promised to protect it till the Day of Resurrection, with regard to the Sunnah; the most authentic of these are the collection of Al-Bukhari and Muslim; we refer to these books and the books of the renowned scholars who travel thousands of miles to confirm a Hadith. We accept that there are differences but not on major issues. We believe in the information that was passed down to us, thru the eminent scholars. We truly believe this is the way Allah Subhanahu wa Ta�ala commanded us to worship HIM so there is no need for us to look for further PROOF. REMEMBER ONLY ALLAH IS PERFECT May Allah Subhanahu wa Ta�ala accept our Ibadah during this Blessed Month. Ameen! Wa Alaikum Salam

What you find in the Holy Quran is what you are required to do.  Anything that you are commaned to do and not given the precise instruction on how do to it is a matter of opinion that is solved through consultation.

As Salamu Alaikum wa Rahmatullahi wa Barakatuhu BH

I felt I was a bit unfair in my response to you but I had to make you realize that when we start casting doubt, there is no end. Insha Allah one day you will understand that.

You have still not failed to show me how you perform salah. Remember Iqamat-as-Salah- establish the prayer. You keep repeating yourself. Anyway I will let you off as I know that you cannot really answer my queries. But I would add this for your reference, something to think about Insha Allah maybe it will make you realize that you are on the wrong track.

The Glorious Qur'an was not sent down as a book from Allah Subhanahu wa Ta�ala. It was during the Caliphate of Abu Bakr (Radhi Allahu Anhu) that the Ayah were collected and compiled in a book form. So that brings us to the Companions who were responsible in the first instant to preserve both the Glorious Qur'an and the Sunnah the then early scholars. Differences arose in the Sunnah because some Companions witness a situation differently from another but these differences are not present where our religious duties, like Salah, are concerned.

You know a Muslim what ever his/her nationality can pray Salah in any Masjid anywhere in the world and will not have problem being part of the congregation. Why?

Every Imam of every Masjid prays the same, be it in Turkey, Indonesia, America or South Africa. The prayer is in Arabic, the Fard of Salatul-Fajr is 2 Rakat and since it is a prayer that is recitation is aloud, he will recite aloud, the movements are the same and follow the same sequence. The same applies to the other four daily prayers as well. The salah has being performed this way from the time the Prophet (Sallallahu Alayhi wa Sallam) thought it to his Companions. Insha Allah it will remain so till the end of time. This is Islam. This is Islamic Unity. This is what Allah Subhanahu wa Ta�ala means when He says �ONE NATION�

Yes I agree, today there are a few (a handful) of Masajid that do things differently that is because they have deviated from the true path not because they have a better understanding of the Deen.

But without the Sunnah we are DEAD.

I pray Allah Subhanahu wa Ta�ala gives all Muslims a better understanding of HIS Religion and keeps us on the Path that leads to Paradise. Ameen!

wa Alaikum Salam

B.H. wrote: Br. Andalus wrote:   Greetings. Before I continue, I was hoping for more clarity. So you agree that someone told the Muslims to do something, which was related to having sex on the evenings of Ramadan. You believe that the Muslims followed some other source. You believe that this act was the sin (not having sex with their wives during the evenings at Ramadan), and Allah forgave them for this act (not having sex with their wives on Ramadan). Does this sum up yuor belief?   Yes, the Muslims were being deceived into believing something was Allah's will that was not in fact the case.  The Prophet refuted the false doctrine by telling the people they could have relations with their wives at night during the fast.

In essence, it seems we have some interpretational agreement, but we greatly differ with the details of who said what and what the actual sin was. You have offered an interpretation of the details that is contrary to what I have given. In such a situation, the best thing to do is to compare the two based upon the best evidence and keeping in mind that entities should not have to be multiplied beyond necessity (Occam�s Razor), or in simple terms, given two valid explanations about the same "event", one should embrace the one that is least complicated (the easiest explanation is the best one).

Let�s start with your interpretation:

1)                             �Someone� told the Muslims to do something, which was about having sex on the evenings of Ramadan.

2)                             Muslims followed some other source

3)                             this act was the sin (not having sex with their wives during the evenings at Ramadan)

4)                             Allah forgave them for this act (not having sex with their wives on Ramadan).

This gives us two pivotal points that separate our two interpretations by 180 degrees: Who was the �someone�, and what was the sin?

Now a fresh look at the verse in question: 2:187

It is made lawful for you (������� �����, passive perfect, 3^rd person male singular and could be translated as �it has been made lawful�)

to have sexual relations with your wives on the night of As-Saum (the fasts). They are L�bas [i.e. body cover, or screen, or Sakan, (i.e. you enjoy the pleasure of living with her - as in Verse 7:189) Tafsir At-Tabar�], for you and you are the same for them. All�h knows that you used to deceive yourselves, so He turned to you (accepted your repentance) and forgave you. So now have sexual relations with them and seek that which All�h has ordained for you (offspring)�

1)      Allah makes the act of having sex with your wives on the nights of Ramadan to be lawful / permissible.

2)      The Muslims had been deceiving themselves.

3)      Allah turned to them and forgave them

4)      Allah reiterated that it is now lawful for Muslim men to have sexual relations with their wives (on the nights of Ramadan)

5)      The verse furthers the granting of privileges by stating that it is permissible to freely eat and drink without stipulation.

You first contention, that the sin committed by the early Muslims was not having sex with their wives, is implausible given that the command to Muslims to have sex on the nights of Ramadan is given in this verse. In other words, it was made lawful in this verse, meaning that refraining from sexual relations out of religious belief on the evenings of Ramadan was not a sin before this command mentioned twice in 2:187 (It is made lawful for you��� So now have sexual relations with them�). Since your interpretation is bound to finding things explicitly stated, then you cannot conclude that it was sinful to believe that it was a sin to refrain from sexual relations with your spouses prior to this verse, given that the command had not been given until 2:187.

You assert that the believers followed another authority that misguided them. This would imply that the Prophet (saw) had some kind of an authority rival, and was, somehow, too indebt and weak in authority to make a difference such that some other authority rivaled him, and it took Allah to reveal this verse to convince the believers that they were wrong. (Which is a bit irrelevant as a point given that Allah made having relations lawful on the nights of Ramdan at this point, so that the sin could not have been refraining)

Allah further states in the verse in question that He turned to the believers and forgave them. Forgave them of what? You assert that their sin was abstaining from their wives during Ramadan. So your interpretation lets us suppose that there was a successful movement of Muslims who gave up having relations with their spouses on the nights of Ramadan for no good reason but just because someone said it is a good idea. Keep in mind that the verse uses the term �deceive yourselves�. Deceit requires the sinner or the wrong doer to have knowledge and intention of their act, knowing it is wrong, and to conceal it from someone. So if the �sinners� were deceiving themselves, then this would mean, according to your interpretation, that they did know it was wrong to abstain from having relations with their spouses and they knew they could have relations, but they did it anyway because the sin was somehow overwhelmingly �tempting� (mass abstinence when they knew abstinence was wrong does not make any sense on a number of levels). The sin of abstinence does not sound tempting. Is that tempting to you? To any normal healthy human?

Finally, with your interpretation it becomes odd that Allah would forgive them of a sin, which really was not a sin up to until that point, and even at this time, abstinence for short periods is not necessarily a sin. The verse states they were sinning, and then states that �now it has become lawful (sexual relations)�. Doesn�t it make more sense that they were doing an act which was a sin and then He showed leniency and allowed the act, along with eating and drinking without stipulation, or does it make more sense to you, that they were practicing abstinence and it was becoming popular and so Allah intervened and forgave this, and then had to make sexual relations between spouses lawful in order to motivate them? They needed urging from Allah to procreate on the evenings of Ramadan? I find your interpretation to be a bit comical (the scenario it implies, and not derogatory to your position).

I find that your group has an endearing feature that deserves mention. It is a �tautological� like positioning built into its core which craftily will preserve its ideology without effort. It goes like this:

1) The Quran is the only authority

2) We follow only what is in the Quran

3) The Prophet has no relevance or authority on our religion in terms of law or religious positions unless they are found in the Quran (which goes back to 1, and makes the Prophet irrelevant) and we do not recognize a �Sunnah�, because of 1.

So for proof that the Sunnah of the Prophet (saw) had authority, one would have to show an example where his authority was considered law by Allah. But any example of his authority that is in conjunction to the Quran, would not be in the Quran. Therefore, we do not recognize it.

Another proof of authority would be to show where a command was given in the Quran, but not actually found in the Quran. But, unless the Quran explicitly stated that the Prophet (saw) stated it, then it could be interpreted to be someone else, and if the Prophet (saw) is explicitly shown to give a command, then the command is a part of the Quran, and our belief is correct (either way!).

So your system has a built in assertion that puts forth a tautological type feature where whatever is put forth, your belief is right. Tautologies are always right, which in the real world, does not allow anyone to make a full inquiry.

Now let�s look at my interpretation.

The believers were supposed to abstain from relations from their spouses on the nights of Ramadan. Some were having trouble with this, and so that had relations anyway, ���All�h knows that you used to deceive yourselves�� Knowing they were wrong and in error, they turned to Allah to seek His forgiveness, ��so He turned to you (accepted your repentance) and forgave you�. As a mercy to these people, Allah then allowed believers to partake in relations and drink and eat freely without stipulation at night, �So now have sexual relations with them and seek that which All�h has ordained for you (offspring), and eat and drink until the white thread (light) of dawn appears to you distinct from the black thread (darkness of night), then complete your Saum (fast) till the nightfall��.

Since the Quran does not contain any details about this event, and there is no mention of any restrictions on the nights of Ramadan, one must ask the question: Who gave the order? The answer is, Allah gave the order, and the Prophet (saw) spoke it, and because it was not a part of the recited revelation, does not take away from its place in religious law. If not this scenario, then who, Abu Jahl, or Abu sufyan? Or maybe Zaid? Who? Who else would the Muslims have listened to? And is it the case that the believers had trouble being tempted with abstinence? And then had a hard time with intimacy and required Allah to step in and tell them that this was an act they should be doing?

I believe you will find any reason to object, even if it requires funny interpretations, simply to save that one guiding principle your group follows blindly: Only in the Quran. That principle gives a great deal of freedom to interpret the Quran in a very loose way, and that is part of the secret of that �tautological like� feature.  

Kindest Regards

In essence, it seems we have some interpretational agreement, but we greatly differ with the details of who said what and what the actual sin was. You have offered an interpretation of the details that is contrary to what I have given. In such a situation, the best thing to do is to compare the two based upon the best evidence and keeping in mind that entities should not have to be multiplied beyond necessity (Occam�s Razor), or in simple terms, given two valid explanations about the same "event", one should embrace the one that is least complicated (the easiest explanation is the best one).

Let�s start with your interpretation:

1)                             �Someone� told the Muslims to do something, which was about having sex on the evenings of Ramadan.

2)                             Muslims followed some other source

3)                             this act was the sin (not having sex with their wives during the evenings at Ramadan)

4)                             Allah forgave them for this act (not having sex with their wives on Ramadan).

This gives us two pivotal points that separate our two interpretations by 180 degrees: Who was the �someone�, and what was the sin?

We agree on the above for the most part.

It is made lawful for you (������� �����, passive perfect, 3^rd person male singular and could be translated as �it has been made lawful�)

to have sexual relations with your wives on the night of As-Saum (the fasts). They are L�bas [i.e. body cover, or screen, or Sakan, (i.e. you enjoy the pleasure of living with her - as in Verse 7:189) Tafsir At-Tabar�], for you and you are the same for them. All�h knows that you used to deceive yourselves, so He turned to you (accepted your repentance) and forgave you. So now have sexual relations with them and seek that which All�h has ordained for you (offspring)�

1)      Allah makes the act of having sex with your wives on the nights of Ramadan to be lawful / permissible.

2)      The Muslims had been deceiving themselves.

3)      Allah turned to them and forgave them

4)      Allah reiterated that it is now lawful for Muslim men to have sexual relations with their wives (on the nights of Ramadan)

5)      The verse furthers the granting of privileges by stating that it is permissible to freely eat and drink without stipulation.

I have no argument with this either.

You first contention, that the sin committed by the early Muslims was not having sex with their wives, is implausible given that the command to Muslims to have sex on the nights of Ramadan is given in this verse.

I have been misunderstood.  I never said that the early Muslims sinned in not having sex with their wives.  their sin was in being deceived into thinking it was wrong to have sex with their wives where Allah had not actually said so.

In other words, it was made lawful in this verse, meaning that refraining from sexual relations out of religious belief on the evenings of Ramadan was not a sin before this command mentioned twice in 2:187 (It is made lawful for you��� So now have sexual relations with them�). Since your interpretation is bound to finding things explicitly stated, then you cannot conclude that it was sinful to believe that it was a sin to refrain from sexual relations with your spouses prior to this verse, given that the command had not been given until 2:187.

I am not sure if I understand you here.  I do not believe it was a sin to have sex with ones wife  during Ramadan either.  The problem was that some if not all of the early Muslims got the idea that it was and Allah corrected this through the prophet.

Allah further states in the verse in question that He turned to the believers and forgave them. Forgave them of what? You assert that their sin was abstaining from their wives during Ramadan.

The sin was not in abstaining from their wives in and of itself but in being deceived into thinking they HAD to abstain when it was not commanded. 

So your interpretation lets us suppose that there was a successful movement of Muslims who gave up having relations with their spouses on the nights of Ramadan for no good reason but just because someone said it is a good idea.

Whatever the reason given, the Muslims that followed such instruction were in error and Allah in his mercy corrected their misunderstanding.

Keep in mind that the verse uses the term �deceive yourselves�. Deceit requires the sinner or the wrong doer to have knowledge and intention of their act, knowing it is wrong, and to conceal it from someone. So if the �sinners� were deceiving themselves, then this would mean, according to your interpretation, that they did know it was wrong to abstain from having relations with their spouses and they knew they could have relations, but they did it anyway because the sin was somehow overwhelmingly �tempting� (mass abstinence when they knew abstinence was wrong does not make any sense on a number of levels). The sin of abstinence does not sound tempting. Is that tempting to you? To any normal healthy human?

Andulus, human beings never cease to amaze me in the things they fall for.  The idea that they would fall for something like this does not shock me one bit in the least.

As for "deceive themselves" I do not see why you have a problem here.  People who are deceived and spread their error can be said to deceive others or themselves.  Whether some people knew they were speaking ill or not is irrelevant

Finally, with your interpretation it becomes odd that Allah would forgive them of a sin, which really was not a sin up to until that point, and even at this time, abstinence for short periods is not necessarily a sin. The verse states they were sinning, and then states that �now it has become lawful (sexual relations)�. Doesn�t it make more sense that they were doing an act which was a sin and then He showed leniency and allowed the act, along with eating and drinking without stipulation, or does it make more sense to you, that they were practicing abstinence and it was becoming popular and so Allah intervened and forgave this, and then had to make sexual relations between spouses lawful in order to motivate them? They needed urging from Allah to procreate on the evenings of Ramadan? I find your interpretation to be a bit comical (the scenario it implies, and not derogatory to your position

I am having a problem following you here.  Allah was concerned that the people were cheating themselves by not having realtions with each other.  I infer that somehow they got the idea that husbands and wives could not have relations at night during Ramadan and it was a wrong idea.  If it was commanded by Allah why would he say they were cheating themselves?  No, Allah saw that they were following an idea that was not good and had the prophet tell them it was okay to have sex with your wives at night during Ramadan.

I find that your group has an endearing feature that deserves mention. It is a �tautological� like positioning built into its core which craftily will preserve its ideology without effort. It goes like this:

1) The Quran is the only authority

2) We follow only what is in the Quran

3) The Prophet has no relevance or authority on our religion in terms of law or religious positions unless they are found in the Quran (which goes back to 1, and makes the Prophet irrelevant) and we do not recognize a �Sunnah�, because of 1.

So for proof that the Sunnah of the Prophet (saw) had authority, one would have to show an example where his authority was considered law by Allah. But any example of his authority that is in conjunction to the Quran, would not be in the Quran. Therefore, we do not recognize it.

If you wish you can bring forward arguments that you feel refute this doctrine.

Now let�s look at my interpretation.

The believers were supposed to abstain from relations from their spouses on the nights of Ramadan. Some were having trouble with this, and so that had relations anyway, ���All�h knows that you used to deceive yourselves�� Knowing they were wrong and in error, they turned to Allah to seek His forgiveness, ��so He turned to you (accepted your repentance) and forgave you�. As a mercy to these people, Allah then allowed believers to partake in relations and drink and eat freely without stipulation at night, �So now have sexual relations with them and seek that which All�h has ordained for you (offspring), and eat and drink until the white thread (light) of dawn appears to you distinct from the black thread (darkness of night), then complete your Saum (fast) till the nightfall��.

Since the Quran does not contain any details about this event, and there is no mention of any restrictions on the nights of Ramadan, one must ask the question: Who gave the order? The answer is, Allah gave the order, and the Prophet (saw) spoke it, and because it was not a part of the recited revelation, does not take away from its place in religious law. If not this scenario, then who, Abu Jahl, or Abu sufyan? Or maybe Zaid? Who? Who else would the Muslims have listened to? And is it the case that the believers had trouble being tempted with abstinence? And then had a hard time with intimacy and required Allah to step in and tell them that this was an act they should be doing?

I believe you will find any reason to object, even if it requires funny interpretations, simply to save that one guiding principle your group follows blindly: Only in the Quran. That principle gives a great deal of freedom to interpret the Quran in a very loose way, and that is part of the secret of that �tautological like� feature.  

Kindest Regards

You have stated your opinion and I have stated mine. I stand by the position that some of the early Muslims somehow got the false idea they could not have sex with their wives during the nights of Ramadan and Allah, seeing that they were cheating themselves, instructed the Prophet to tell them that it was permissable.

B.H. wrote: I find that your group has an endearing feature that deserves mention. It is a �tautological� like positioning built into its core which craftily will preserve its ideology without effort. It goes like this: 1) The Quran is the only authority 2) We follow only what is in the Quran 3) The Prophet has no relevance or authority on our religion in terms of law or religious positions unless they are found in the Quran (which goes back to 1, and makes the Prophet irrelevant) and we do not recognize a �Sunnah�, because of 1. So for proof that the Sunnah of the Prophet (saw) had authority, one would have to show an example where his authority was considered law by Allah. But any example of his authority that is in conjunction to the Quran, would not be in the Quran. Therefore, we do not recognize it.   If you wish you can bring forward arguments that you feel refute this doctrine.

What I gave was an argument. You can disagree, or agree, or show why it is wrong.

The last time I checked, your school of thought is "anti-scholarship", and as of to date, there is not solid, guiding, uniform doctrine.

Kindest regards

B.H. wrote: Now let�s look at my interpretation. The believers were supposed to abstain from relations from their spouses on the nights of Ramadan. Some were having trouble with this, and so that had relations anyway, ���All�h knows that you used to deceive yourselves�� Knowing they were wrong and in error, they turned to Allah to seek His forgiveness, ��so He turned to you (accepted your repentance) and forgave you�. As a mercy to these people, Allah then allowed believers to partake in relations and drink and eat freely without stipulation at night, �So now have sexual relations with them and seek that which All�h has ordained for you (offspring), and eat and drink until the white thread (light) of dawn appears to you distinct from the black thread (darkness of night), then complete your Saum (fast) till the nightfall��. Since the Quran does not contain any details about this event, and there is no mention of any restrictions on the nights of Ramadan, one must ask the question: Who gave the order? The answer is, Allah gave the order, and the Prophet (saw) spoke it, and because it was not a part of the recited revelation, does not take away from its place in religious law. If not this scenario, then who, Abu Jahl, or Abu sufyan? Or maybe Zaid? Who? Who else would the Muslims have listened to? And is it the case that the believers had trouble being tempted with abstinence? And then had a hard time with intimacy and required Allah to step in and tell them that this was an act they should be doing? I believe you will find any reason to object, even if it requires funny interpretations, simply to save that one guiding principle your group follows blindly: Only in the Quran. That principle gives a great deal of freedom to interpret the Quran in a very loose way, and that is part of the secret of that �tautological like� feature.   Kindest Regards   You have stated your opinion and I have stated mine. I stand by the position that some of the early Muslims somehow got the false idea they could not have sex with their wives during the nights of Ramadan and Allah, seeing that they were cheating themselves, instructed the Prophet to tell them that it was permissable.

One may develope numerous interpretations, and you may feel free to maintain your position. The difference is that my position falls upon sound evidence from a contextual view, a common sense view (people tempted into abstinence?), and grammatical.

I believe you are only sticking to your position, even if you use words such as , "somehow", only to validate your groups erroneous beliefs, regardless of the cost. Just my observation.

Kindest regards

As Salamu Alaikum  

During the last days of Ramadan, a friend invited us over for Iftar (breakfast).  We decided to watch the Tarawih in the Grand Masjid in Makkah on TV. It was the night the Imam completed the Qur'an. Subhanallah! Alhamdulillah! Allahu Akbar! Most incredible Scene! An Ocean of Worshipers! This is Islamic Brotherhood, Islamic Unity and the Beauty of Islam.

It was then that I thought about my cyber brothers and sisters on IC and other groups, who claim that there is no need for Hadith. There were millions of worshipers that night from every corner of the globe.  Every country was represented at that gathering. Can you imagine the chaos if each group followed their own consensus and not the Sunnah?

This Harmony and Serenity can only be achieved by practicing Islam according to the Glorious Qur'an and Sunnah.

Yes I agree that we do not need to implement each and every Hadith/Sunnah in our daily life but without the Sunnah we cannot worship Allah Subhanahu wa Ta�ala the way HE commanded us to worship HIM. Not implementing some Sunnah in our daily life is one thing saying that there is NO NEED for the Sunnah is something else.  We need to differentiate the the Fard (Obligatory) Sunnah and those that are Wajib (highly recommended) and Mustahabb (encouraged)

You may be interested in the Hadith evaluation resources and links available at 

http://www.geocities.com/asimiqbal2nd/hadeeth.htm - www.geocities.com/asimiqbal2nd/hadeeth.htm and it also gives many Qur'anic Ayaat on the issue with clear highlighting, and clear arrangement according to subject.

Also check out about a dozen links including some books on this issue.

and on predictions etc... check out :

http://www.geocities.com/asimiqbal2nd - www.geocities.com/asimiqbal2nd