Questioning the concept of holy war, he quoted a 14th-Century Christian emperor who said Muhammad had brought the world only "evil and inhuman" things.

A senior Pakistani Islamic scholar, Javed Ahmed Gamdi, said jihad was not about spreading Islam with the sword.

Turkey's top religious official asked for an apology for the "hostile" words.

In Indian-administered Kashmir, police seized copies of newspapers which reported the Pope's comments to prevent any tension.

A Vatican spokesman, Father Frederico Lombardi, said he did not believe the Pope's comments were meant as a harsh criticism of Islam.

'Abhorrent'

In his speech at Regensburg University, the German-born pontiff explored the historical and philosophical differences between Islam and Christianity and the relationship between violence and faith.

Stressing that they were not his own words, he quoted Emperor Manual II Paleologos of Byzantine, the Orthodox Christian empire which had its capital in what is now the Turkish city of Istanbul.

The emperors words were, he said: "Show me just what Muhammad brought that was new and there you will find things only evil and inhuman, such as his command to spread by the sword the faith he preached."

Benedict said "I quote" twice to stress the words were not his and added that violence was "incompatible with the nature of God and the nature of the soul".

The Pope is due to visit Turkey in November and the Turkish response was swift and strong, the BBC's Sarah Rainsford reports from Istanbul.

Religious leader Ali Badda Kolu said the Pope's comments represented what he called an "abhorrent, hostile and prejudiced point of view".

Whilst Muslims might express their criticism of Islam and of Christianity, he argued, they would never defame the Holy Bible or Jesus Christ.

He said he hoped the Pope's speech did not reflect "hatred in his heart" against Islam.

Many Turks see Benedict as a Turkophobe and commentators call his words just before the holy month of Ramadan "ill-timed and ill-conceived", our correspondent adds.

wasi siddiqui wrote: The emperors words were, he said: "Show me just what Muhammad brought that was new and there you will find things only evil and inhuman, such as his command to spread by the sword the faith he preached."

seems like the Pope had never read the Old Testament, especially the book of Joshua and Samuel that order the killing of Women, children and even Babies!!!

.

Agree with you hanan

and seems he didnt read also talmud

and he dont know about ZETO ( the most dangerous jewish terrorist organization ) and also ( kahane and kach )

they also believe in suiciding to save israel

and anyhow again the world tried to conveinced the arab world that our problem is jewish

while jewish cant be strong unless the christians would help them and support them

and the jewish isnt smart enough to know that they have been used to kill the more muslims they can

and do you think that the christians ( specially in the last war between lebanon and israel ) would care how many jewish would die

there policy let the infidels kill eachother

and for the christian ( we and jewish  ) are infidels we dont believe that jesus is god

though the christians never dare to face jewish that way

because if they do , they would lose their allies in middle east

the allies that likes to kill muslims ....

by aiding of USA and vatican

And no wonder why pope look his all his pictures as satan

( ghadab allah ala washo )

and I again sorry to say that sure those are the antichrist that trying to conveince people to worship to a man

the man on  the crusades ...

We see USA and europe as heaven

while their heaven is our hell ,, is sex , homosexuality in the houses of allah ( church and synagogue )

pride parade gays ,,,, naked woman , porn , freedom

what is the defenition of freedom for those people who fight islam ?

naked woman and those dirty songs they do on TV ?

or the freedom and the civiliazation is to help people to live with good ethics and be clever and upgrading their countries

Our arab leaders unfortunately because they are very weak

they cant understand that our civiliazation is not with HAIFA WAHBI and more naked woman

our civilization is to help the public to live in a better life

good education , good traffic

help youth to get married instead of fool girls cuz they cant marry

cuz they dont have money to have a appartment

many many gaps in arab world that been used by our enemies to fight islam and arab

Hasbi allah from those who gives satan the gate to our countries .

wasi siddiqui wrote: Muslim religious leaders have accused Pope Benedict XVI of quoting anti-Islamic remarks during a speech at a German university this week.

I wish the muslims stop being so jumpy for something they did not even read. For God sake, the pope was talking about the God head just like when the muslim sheikh preach the tauhid.

Please read before start talking, and stop listening to what other people say. I read the script myself and tried to understand it with great difficulty, but I did.

If any of you who does not read it fully have no right to make any comment. It is a simple rule to avoid flaming.

The Pope maybe attacking Islam or muslims, fine. But no read - no talk.

It become so annoying

everytime they insult islam and prophet mohamed

they come up with 100000 excuses that muslims are the one who dont really understand what bush said

what the pope said ,,,

I think YOU ARE JUST PATHETIC
and the war against islam dont need anyone smart to notice it

SO say what you want

and lets see how god will manage that inshallah .

Turkish official compares pope to Hitler

Politician joins outcry across Muslim world over pontiff's comments in Islam

ISTANBUL, Turkey - Pakistan�s legislature unanimously condemned Pope Benedict XVI. Lebanon�s top Shiite cleric demanded an apology. And in Turkey, the ruling party likened the pontiff to Hitler and Mussolini and accused him of reviving the mentality of the Crusades.

Across the Islamic world Friday, Benedict�s remarks on Islam and jihad in a speech in Germany unleashed a torrent of rage that many fear could burst into violent protests like those that followed publication of caricatures of the Prophet Muhammad.

By citing an obscure Medieval text that characterizes some of the teachings of Islam�s founder as �evil and inhuman,� Benedict inflamed Muslim passions and aggravated fears of a new outbreak of anti-Western protests.

The last outpouring of Islamic anger at the West came in February over the prophet cartoons first published in a Danish newspaper. The drawings sparked protests � some of them deadly � in almost every Muslim nation in the world.

Some experts said the perceived provocation by the spiritual leader of more than a billion Roman Catholics could leave even deeper scars.

�The declarations from the pope are more dangerous than the cartoons, because they come from the most important Christian authority in the world � the cartoons just came from an artist,� said Diaa Rashwan, an analyst in Cairo, Egypt, who studies Islamic militancy.

Pakistan demands apology
On Friday, Pakistan�s parliament adopted a resolution condemning Benedict for making what it called �derogatory� comments about Islam, and seeking an apology. Hours later, the Pakistani Foreign Ministry summoned the Vatican�s ambassador to express regret over the pope�s remarks Tuesday.

Notably, the strongest denunciations came from Turkey � a moderate democracy seeking European Union membership where Benedict is scheduled to visit in November as his first trip as pope to a Muslim country.

.

Shery wrote: I think YOU ARE JUST PATHETIC and the war against islam dont need anyone smart to notice it

If you are sitting on the chair now and you feel under attack what would you do?

superme wrote: Shery wrote: I think YOU ARE JUST PATHETIC and the war against islam dont need anyone smart to notice it If you are sitting on the chair now and you feel under attack what would you do?

I would promise that allah will send you disaster very soon inshallah

while I m sitting on my chair .

I have a question for you if you are christian

The pictures you have to christ and saint mary and to the angels in every church in the world

suppose to be from thousand of years

when people used to live with prophet jesus they painted him and painted saint marry

So if at prophet jesus time the people were able to paint with colors

why we havent seen 1 single picture for prophet mohamed

or for john ( yehia) or maybe you have paint for him also

Lets say that arab wasnt that talent to paint

christian exist at this time , they used to paint everything evil and good and according to your belief you believe that prophet mohamed is bad person and he fought your religion

according to what you claim that you were able to paint from thousand of years that is how you know how jesus look likes !

So no single christian thought to paint prophet mohamed ?

I think those paints are fake and I think that you really start to prove my theory of the antichrist

that Judas iscariot is the antichrist who been crusified instead of jesus

and seems also that JAmes Schall and pope are the servant of antichrist if they are not the antichrist himself !

I think the religion that allow gays to marry in the houses of god

( church and synagogue ) God would never lead you in the right way

and I think the religion that allow that also is the religion of human or from god and been corrupted as what qoran said

Inshallah more disasters in your way from god

to defend HIS prophets ( mohamed and jesus ) and HIS RELIGIONS
( ISLAM , CHRISTIANITY AND JUDAISAM )

from the people who dont deserve to carry those religions

GOD JUSTICE IS VERY CLOSE inshallah .

.

TO:

ak_m_f

Y do u have that penguin thingy holding up a sign wit' my computer details.. is that really necessary...

???

ak_m_f wrote: IslamicGirl wrote: <SPAN =bold>TO:</SPAN> <SPAN =bold>ak_m_f</SPAN> <SPAN =bold>Y do u have that penguin thingy holding up a sign wit' my computer details.. is that really necessary...</SPAN> <SPAN =bold>???</SPAN> <SPAN =bold></SPAN>  The penguin is my trade mark.

What r ya trading lol

Hanan wrote: "These protesters look ridiculous"

psss, I'll let you in on a secrete, it's the muslims who are protesting AGAIN because they don't like what someone SAID. Really for muslims living in some of the most harsh conditions (heat, war, etc) you seem to have some thin skin. 

Shery wrote: superme wrote: Shery wrote: I think YOU ARE JUST PATHETIC and the war against islam dont need anyone smart to notice it If you are sitting on the chair now and you feel under attack what would you do? I would promise that allah will send you disaster very soon inshallah while I m sitting on my chair.

O My lord, to thee I complained of my feeblenes of my strength, of my lack of resources, and my being unimportant in the eyes of the people.

O Most merciful of all those capable of showing mercy, thou are the lord of the weak, thou are my Lord, to whom are thou to entrust me, to an unsympathetic foe, who would sullenly frown at me, or to an alien to whom thou are given control over my affairs?.
Not in the least that do I care for anything, except that I may have thy protection for myself.

I seek shelter in your light,-the light which illuminates the heavens, and dispells all sort darkness, and which controls all affairs in this world, as well as in the hereafter.

May it never be, that I should incur thy wrath, or that thou should be displeased with me. I must remove the cause of thy displeasure till thou are pleased. There is no strength, nor power, but through thee.

O Prophet of Allah, I am at your service. I can cause the mountains overlooking this town on both sides to collide each other, so that all the people therein would be crushed to death, or you may suggest any punishment for them

Even if these people do not accept Islam, I do hope from Allah that their progeny who would worship Allah and serve his cause.

Hanan wrote: seems like the Pope had never read the Old Testament, especially the book of Joshua and Samuel that order the killing of Women, children and even Babies!!! Unlike the Holy Koran, the Bible has been changed over time to fit the preacher, instead of the pracher changing to fit the Bible. I have often wondered how that can be.

Hello to all of you. I am new in this forum. I believe it is an interesting one since different ideas can be exchanged from the Muslim and the Christian sides.

I live in Spain and I was baptized as a Christian Catholic, like most people in Spain.

In connection to the quote above and to the words by Ratzinger, I would like to say:

1. That the Bible has been changed along time is true and false: the Catholic Church has had lots of faults (let me call it faults), most linked to its intolerance and close-mindedness. We could mention, among others, the Inquisition.

Although, the Catholic Church has always had members that were near the people and know about life changes in time. Then, the Bible explains things in a clearer way that is more updated to our days. You may read verses and chapters and then an example applied to life today. This can be seen in Bibles for children today mainly. They are adapted to our days but the background ideas are the same (and not very different from those promoted by Islam: fairness, love, peace, etc.

2. Ratzinger has used the words from an old Emperor to show their ideas, hiding himself after a historic character. He has acted cowardly and this is worse if we remember he represents the Christian people in the world. Although, one thing should be clear: in the western countries where Christians are majority, religion is not the center of the individual's life. For many people it is something important to which they dedicate a part of their days. But there are other "values" that have their importance too and if they are well used (important!), life becomes much better.

This "values" have developed independently from religion, like some others, because in the western countries religion is not as important and decisive in life.

These values are played and enjoyed properly by most people in our countries. And a part of the people dont use them in a good way.
One of the values I am talking about is the freedom of press and free speech. This is an individual right and freedom that one can use well or badly. But it is an individual right.

Ratzinger chose that quote because he wanted problems, no doubt. He has been really imprudent.

Then, as citizens in western countries are not so closely connected to religion as Muslims are, we Christians may choose to be in favor or against his words. I may be a Christian believer and not be in favor of his words.

Anyway, and regretting his badly intentioned words on what Islam has given to the world, are not these words be based on the Muslim rule to expand Faith by sword and fight to convert the infidel?

3. In connection the the "values" I referred to above, I would add that most of them are good ones in themselves, mainly if they are well used. The progress of our Christian civilization is based on an important amount of personal freedom mixed with respect for the others' freedom and rights that-if well used, I insist-makes life good to be lived. Of course, as another participant in the forum expressed, our civilization is stained with things like pornography, and other badly-used liberties that really make people less free and become vices. But, in change, we have free speech and can express our ideas and opinions about absolutely everything.

And these things are rejected and considered sins by the Catholic Church, that, by the way do not permit gay marriage (they are celebrated in City Halls, they are not catholic marriages, just civil ones).

But what about the good things in our civilization? There are numerous Charity organizations, both men and women are considered equal and with the same rights since both are human beings. Our life and economy here isnt based-as someone in the forum meant-on vice and sin; everyone works to give the best they can to their family and make life reasonably good. And, of course, there is a small part of the population that takes sick advantage of the liberties. But perhaps this is the price to pay.

In order to defend the people of my civilization, I would just like to add that we are open and try to understand the others' bad situation and most people here are against crimes like those committed by Bush and allies.

But, does it make sense to make innocent citizens pay for their rulers's decisions (9/11 US, 3/11 Madrid...) as if people in Christian countries backed the suffering of the Muslims? Even more after thousands of peoples had previously demonstrated against the rulers' decision showing the public opinion. This creates a bigger separation between the peoples of our civilizations.

We also dont understand why after Ratzinger's words there are such things like a nun who has been assassinated while working for the poor, and Christian churches burned down..while for example in Spain after the massacre of Madrid nobody killed Muslim people or attacked Mosques in the country. I mean, we are aware there are good muslims and bad muslims; but for muslims, we are all in the same side (as our rulers).

Perhaps the difference is so big between Muslims and Christians, and not just because of religion but probably because here and there we are taught different values and different ways to see things. And these two ways are not close to each other precisely. In my civilization, reasoning is preeminent in life (so, it is really harder to be a faithful believer) whereas in Islam areas Faith is preeminent.

Thanks for your time.

Theotherside.

Have any of you people even bothered to read or listen to what the Pope actually said?!

He was NOT condemning Muslims or promoting Violence. He was quoting something that was said hundreds of years ago. Are we not allowed to do that now? Has the Muslim religion taken over the world and free speech is not allowed anywhere now?!

As far as I am aware there are no Christian Extremist groups who think it is okay to set fire to Mosques or walk onto a bus and blow themselves and everyone else up, and yet this is the sort of violence that the rest of us have to put up with.

England has had to deal with terrorism for many years (from the IRA) and yet the only terrorism or acts of "religious" violence that we hear about now are from Muslim groups.

Why are Muslims claiming to be peace-loving and condemning acts of violence and at the same time they are blowing up Churches because of a speech? Is that not just adding to the anti-muslim hatred that is tearing the World apart?

Do we (English Christians, speaking from experience) stand on Hyde Park corner in London and make speeches about religious hatred and promote violence towards others? In case you hadn't noticed we cannot say anything anymore without being called Racists or Bigots.

There is free speech in this world and many of us live in countries where we can say what we like and express our opinions. If Muslim leaders or followers don't like that then tough! Millions have died to free us from this sort of small minded dictatorship.

I find the behavior of the Muslim community both, highly entertaining and supremely childish with regard to your ability to deal with political issues. Time and time again, the world witnesses protests, outrage and mindless violence from the Islamic community at the slightest suggestion that Islam be flawed. The outrage generated in the Muslim community over Pope Benedict's recent speech is no different. Having actually read the Pope's speech, the hollowness and transparency of the Muslim community's arguments become suddenly obvious.

The following is a link to his speech, translated from German: http://www.zenit.org/english/visualizza.phtml?sid=94748 - http://www.zenit.org/english/visualizza.phtml?sid=94748 . Please do read through it for a change, as any other educated human being would, before blurting out your opinions.

Now, as a community of cool headed and reasonably competent human beings, lets proceed to analyzing this speech. What becomes immediately evident is that the Pope nowhere supports or endorses the view of the Byzantine emperor. He merely includes the emperor's commentary on Islam to highlight that religion should be spread through reason and example, not violence. Further, the quote "Show me just what Mohammed brought that was new, and there you will find things only evil and inhuman, such as his command to spread by the sword the faith he preached" was not uttered by Pope Benedict himself (as is wrongly being considered) but instead is the words of the Byzantine emperor. Also, his inclusion of the quote is not entirely inappropriate. The quote highlights and discusses the concept of Jihad, a very 21st century terror that we as the global community are struggling with at present. Finally, people have made the mistake of assuming that the Pope's entire speech revolves around Jihad and Islam. Readers with even an inkling of cognitive ability will be quick to note that the Pope discusses the situation of Islam in a short, concise series of quotes, and then moves on to other issues that concern the Christian faith. Then again, those very same people would have actually grasped what Pope Benedict really had to say.

Simply put, little knowledge is dangerous. So here is a lesson to remember. Next time your  going to say something, please make sure you have your facts right. Supporting your arguments � what a truly novel idea.  

Yedkar
 

"the quote "Show me just what Mohammed brought that was new, and there you will find things only evil and inhuman, such as his command to spread by the sword the faith he preached" was not uttered by Pope Benedict himself (as is wrongly being considered) but instead is the words of the Byzantine emperor."

This is called playing the game in a more "civilized" way. Why was he quoting anti-Islam figure in his speech? Why couldn't he quote many other non-Muslim figures who spoke very high about Islam? There was never this kind of problem at the time of his predecessor, John Paul II who put in efforts for better Muslim-Christian relations. The present Pope could have taken his example and avoided making such an irresponsbile speech.

At the same time I also oppose any form of violent protests as a response to his speech.

If you want to discuss the meaning of Jihad, open a thread in Islam for non-Muslim section and I ( or someone ) will be pleased to answer your queries as that is not in the scope of this section. 

Peace 

Its depressing for the future of the world reading some of your warped comments. The Pope was QUOTING someone. If there should be any out rage then it should be against the murderers who killed a NUN who dedicated her life to helping people.

I do not believe in religion and it is because of these very reasons. Your religions are your excuses for violence and control and seperation and condemnation. You all think you know everything and that you are seated at the right hand side of holy righteousness. Twisting your books to suit your beliefs.

I read one of the above comments about how our freedom is "naked women" and "porn" etc..............i had to laugh at that. I'd rather that then a hidden lady with eyes that show the fear of violence.

Remember when those cartoons came out from Denmark and the Muslim extremists started burning and killing as a result. For gods sake if you are in any way religious then grow a sense of humour. Why is violence always the first and last answer. You wouldnt see christians get so worked up about a cartoon or a anti christian speech (and there's loads of those). and no i'm not a christian remember.

This is my opinion and I'm entitled to it just like your entitled to yours. If I had my way I'd ban all religions and then maybe people wouldnt know who to murder or curse or threaten. RELIGION BREEDS VIOLENCE

Shery wrote: We see USA and europe as heaven while their heaven is our hell ,, is sex , homosexuality in the houses of allah ( church and synagogue ) pride parade gays ,,,, naked woman , porn , freedom what is the defenition of freedom for those people who fight islam ? naked woman and those dirty songs they do on TV ? or the freedom and the civiliazation is to help people to live with good ethics and be clever and upgrading their countries

lol Shery lay off the medication there...............this is a prime example of your nutty extremist spouting bile and preeching untruths......... you cannot preach to anyone about morals..........maybe you could preach freedom to that dead nun or the people she helped. u make me sick..............

raymond wrote: Its depressing for the future of the world reading some of your warped comments. The Pope was QUOTING someone. If there should be any out rage then it should be against the murderers who killed a NUN who dedicated her life to helping people. I do not believe in religion and it is because of these very reasons. Your religions are your excuses for violence and control and seperation and condemnation. You all think you know everything and that you are seated at the right hand side of holy righteousness. Twisting your books to suit your beliefs. I read one of the above comments about how our freedom is "naked women" and "porn" etc..............i had to laugh at that. I'd rather that then a hidden lady with eyes that show the fear of violence. Remember when those cartoons came out from Denmark and the Muslim extremists started burning and killing as a result. For gods sake if you are in any way religious then grow a sense of humour. Why is violence always the first and last answer. You wouldnt see christians get so worked up about a cartoon or a anti christian speech (and there's loads of those). and no i'm not a christian remember. This is my opinion and I'm entitled to it just like your entitled to yours. If I had my way I'd ban all religions and then maybe people wouldnt know who to murder or curse or threaten. RELIGION BREEDS VIOLENCE

It appears that you didn't read my previous post in this thread.

"the quote "Show me just what Mohammed brought that was new, and there you will find things only evil and inhuman, such as his command to spread by the sword the faith he preached" was not uttered by Pope Benedict himself (as is wrongly being considered) but instead is the words of the Byzantine emperor."

This is called playing the game in a more "civilized" way. Why was he quoting anti-Islam figure in his speech? Why couldn't he quote many other non-Muslim figures who spoke very high about Islam? There was never this kind of problem at the time of his predecessor, John Paul II who put in efforts for better Muslim-Christian relations. The present Pope could have taken his example and avoided making such an irresponsbile speech.

At the same time I also oppose any form of violent protests as a response to his speech.

If you want to discuss the meaning of Jihad, open a thread in Islam for non-Muslim section and I ( or someone ) will be pleased to answer your queries as that is not in the scope of this section. 

Why is it so hard to see what wrong Pope did? And as I said, violent response to his speech must also be condemned, and I condemn both. But, Pope having such a position of authority could avoid this mess altogether.

Peace

I dont care what the Pope or ANYONE says because i believe in a wonderful thing called freedom of speech and freedom of thought and expression. I believe it should be our right to criticise without fear of Terror. It doesnt mean we are right but it IS our right. Surely if a religion is so mighty and just then it can with stand any form of criticism............wouldnt it???????

i'm not religious so i dont care what the Pope said , infact its only because of the VIOLENT reactions that i have to listen to him. Do you believe in the Popes beliefs?? No you dont .......... so why are you so bothered with him. I'd be more worried about the Violent reactions from certain Muslims to criticism. Its not the Popes fault that these people do NOT allow or believe in freedom of speech. They are a cancer to society..............all society

Also why cant these people accept the popes IMMEDIATE appology instead of killing a nun

Leii wrote: Have any of you people even bothered to read or listen to what the Pope actually said?!

and free speech is not allowed anywhere now?! There is free speech in this world and many of us live in countries where we can say what we like and express our opinions.

you might like to do a bit of research, start with germany first  

In a way I agree with Raymond when he wrote about why we pay any attention to him.. we give him more power then we should. On the other hand, he DOES have influence.  People actually do listen to him. And if he is contributing to the problem then he should be called on it.

The truly sad case of things is that there are extremists on both ends.. either with people who are using violence in the name of self-defense and/or the people sending the US to invade others peoples' lands (war in Iraq and Afganistan).  And that most of the people in the world are caught in the middle and feel powerless. We can see things and get cannot stop them. People in west fear Islam and Moslems now and Moslems fear the west and/or governmental groups.  People are dying needlessly and uselessly.

and free speech is not allowed anywhere now?! There is free speech in this world and many of us live in countries where we can say what we like and express our opinions.

you might like to do a bit of research, start with germany first  

[/QUOTE]

Angel,

I'm sorry, I don't understand what you mean by "start with Germany first"? 

The Hindu wrote: I find the behavior of the Muslim community both, highly entertaining and supremely childish with regard to your ability to deal with political issues. Having actually read the Pope's speech, the hollowness and transparency of the Muslim community's arguments become suddenly obvious  The following is a link to his speech, translated from German: http://www.zenit.org/english/visualizza.phtml?sid=94748 - http://www.zenit.org/english/visualizza.phtml?sid=94748 . Please do read through it for a change, as any other educated human being would, before blurting out your opinions. .

For starters, I think a Hindu is least qualified to pitch his 2 cent in here particularly on this issue. Now I am not a moderator so  if you are in here to learn, you will not be disappointed my dear friend. The Pope�s lecture is not a political issue, I reckon you paid attention to the title or you forgot before typing your tirade. Go back and read it again  if you like.

The Hindu wrote: Time and time again, the world witnesses protests, outrage and mindless violence from the Islamic community at the slightest suggestion that Islam be flawed. The outrage generated in the Muslim community over Pope Benedict's recent speech is no different. .

You need to describe how the outrages have affected you personally otherwise being a Hindu getting on the band wagon would be fruitless. Zillion low life enemies of God and Prophet in the crusading European countries are busy attacking through anti Islamic books and rags for a longest period of time, and now sites in cyberspace  joining their ranks to malign the most important man in the lives of true Muslims.

 It is one thing if a coward in cyberspace say something VS the Papa head of close to more less billion Catholics utter some non sense in an open university�s setting for all to hear. Not these two people carry the same weight and damaging impact through their expression. To top it off his facts were not exact, as I would expect from a supposedly� infallible vicar of the Christ�. He would not need a lost, besieged  emperor�s dialogue or should we say�controversy with an unknown Persian. You live in India probably you wouldn�t have seen this or done this; Third Party involvement during sales pitch used to be a common Sales Technique in the sales offices in the US before the advent of internet. The Pope was using the third party technique to make his point stick, and bcs of internet and fast media the whole thing blew up in his face. The last Pope was a Polish, they are simple and nice people, this guy is German and then an Aries on the top of that. Ram does what he did!! 

This is the main reason the critical conversation between God and Prophets used to take the form of parables.

 Have you forgotten Gandhi Gee was out demonstrating against Brits, any chance he would get till he was killed while he was in the middle of things he loved most-- march or you are too young to know any better.

POPE wrote: In the seventh conversation ("di�lesis" -- controversy) edited by professor Khoury, the emperor touches on the theme of the jihad (holy war). The emperor must have known that sura 2:256 reads: "There is no compulsion in religion." It is one of the suras of the early period, when Mohammed was still powerless and under [threat]. But naturally the emperor also knew the instructions, developed later and recorded in the Koran, concerning holy war. Without descending to details, such as the difference in treatment accorded to those who have the "Book" and the "infidels," he turns to his interlocutor somewhat brusquely with the central question on the relationship between religion and violence in general, in these words: "Show me just what Mohammed brought that was new, and there you will find things only evil and inhuman, such as his command to spread by the sword the faith he preached."  "

First thing the emperor supposedly erudite didn�t have his facts straight and it is even pathetic after all the professor Theodore Khoury�s skullduggery on the subject; the PAPA didn�t realize what he was talking about. READ CAREFULLY>>> The Surah he quotes (2:256) is not an early Surah meaning Meccan (Prophet preached 13 years in Mecca) but a Madinite surah and the Prophet (sa) was absolutely not under any personal threat after escaping unharmed under God�s protection from the Meccan�s assassination plot just like Jesus�s disappearance after showing the Romans/ Jews that if speak the truth you will be lead to the crucifixion. They were shown an image of crucifixion for show and tell purposes only.

This momentous event of flight or Hijra is beginning of new era in humanity�s redemption from the darkness and start of a new calendar if you care to know.  

POPE wrote:  The emperor goes on to explain in detail the reasons why spreading the faith through violence is something unreasonable. Violence is incompatible with the nature of God and the nature of the soul. "God is not pleased by blood, and not acting reasonably ("syn logo") is contrary to God's nature. Faith is born of the soul, not the body. Whoever would lead someone to faith needs the ability to speak well and to reason properly, without violence and threats.... To convince a reasonable soul, one does not need a strong arm, or weapons of any kind, or any other means of threatening a person with death....

Did Papa forget about his own shining history of Spanish / American Inquisition. How about the spectacle of Crusades:

READ A SAMPLE:

Not to be outdone, throngs of crusaders in the Rhine valley followed a goose believed to be enchanted by God to be their guide. I'm not sure that they got very far, although they did manage to join other armies following Emich of Leisingen who asserted that a cross miraculously appeared on his chest, certifying him for leadership. Showing a level of rationality consistent with their choice of leaders, Emich's followers decided that before they traveled across Europe to kill God's enemies, it would be a good idea to eliminate the infidels in their midst. Thus suitably motivated, they proceeded to massacre the Jews in German cities like Mainz and Worms. Thousands of defenseless men, women and children were chopped, burned or otherwise slaughtered.

This sort of action was not an isolated event � indeed, it was repeated throughout Europe by all sorts of crusading hordes. Lucky Jews were given a last-minute chance to convert to Christianity in accord with Augustine's doctrines. Even other Christians were not safe from the Christian crusaders. As they roamed the countryside, they spared no effort in pillaging towns and farms for food. When Peter the Hermit's army entered Yugoslavia, 4,000 Christian residents of the city of Zemun were massacred before they moved on to burn Belgrade.

Or he was afraid of the Zionists to quote from their  OT:

Let me show you some samples:

 Deuteronomy

CH. 2

34 And we took all his cities at that time, and utterly ^a http://scriptures.lds.org/en/deut/2/34a" title="Deut. 7: 2; 1 Sam. 15: 3. - destroyed the men, and the women, and the little ones, of every city, we left none to remain:

35 Only the cattle we took for a prey unto ourselves, and the spoil of the cities which we took.

 

CH.3

6 And we utterly destroyed them, as we did unto Sihon king of Heshbon, utterly destroying the men, women, and children, of every city.

 

 7 But all the cattle, and the spoil of the cities, we took for a prey to ourselves.

 
25 I pray thee, let me go over, and see the good land that is beyond Jordan, that goodly mountain, and ^a http://scriptures.lds.org/en/deut/3/25a" title="Josh. 1: 4. - Lebanon .

TheHIndu wrote: Simply put, little knowledge is dangerous. So here is a lesson to remember. Next time your  going to say something, please make sure you have your facts right. Supporting your arguments � what a truly novel idea.   Yedkar

Now is this enough for your edification. Who needs to check facts? If you have more questions; you are welcome

PS>>>>>>> If Muslims rulers of India were anything close to Roman Catholics in their practice, guess what how many Hindus would be running around today?

Answer: Nada  (Some in the reservations may be)

Now>>>>>>>>>SAY Thank you Allah and Muhammad Peace be upon him.

Cya

 

-------------
Kismet Domino: Faith/Courage/Liberty/Abundance/Selfishness/Immorality/Apathy/Bondage or extinction.

Sign*Reader wrote: The Hindu wrote: Time and time again, the world witnesses protests, outrage and mindless violence from the Islamic community at the slightest suggestion that Islam be flawed. The outrage generated in the Muslim community over Pope Benedict's recent speech is no different. . You need to describe how the outrages have affected you personally otherwise being a Hindu getting on the band wagon would be fruitless.

Yet again a Muslim is displaying their total lack of respect and tolerance for someone from another religion! Why does being a Hindu make any difference to whether they can offer an opinion?

The acts of terror caused by Muslims around the World affects everyone. Eventually your extremist acts will rip the planet apart - perhaps that is what Muslims want?

It is beginning to look as though no-one is allowed to disagree with Islam. Just because you think you are right - doesn't mean you are!

The Birth of Islam

In the holiest land of Arabia
In the tribal of Quresh
It was in Makkah
The Prophet Mohammad was born
The Holy Quran was blessed upon him in cave of Hira
When Gabriel asked him to recite Holy Quran
It was the beginning of the religion Islam
This is how Islam was born
Prophet Mohammad said there are five pillars of Islam
Faith in Allah, Prayers, Fasting, Charity and Haj
He said tolerance is what Islam teaches
Without these basic things there is no Islam
He travel across the communities
And said I am the messenger of Allah
Read this Holy book, this is word of Allah
This is Holy Quran as it comes to me
When the news of Mohammad reaches Far East
King of Egypt came to meet Prophet Mohammad

He was surprised to see his living style
He thought that he might be living in a castle
And found him sitting and preaching under a tree
Is this is how you live? asked the King
Yes he said I am Mohammad my life is simple as you see
I am not a King or have any servants
And the castle that you were expecting to see
Allah has given me all that I need
My life is simple as you can see
Where is your food that you eat?" asked the King
Prophet Mohammad said this is dates, which I eat
That king was so impressed by what he saw
And said "Like you a true Muslim can I also be"?
Prophet Mohammad said always forgive your enemy
As I did to that lady who used to throw garbage at me
One day no garbage came on me
I began to worry about her health
And found her in great pain
I comfort her and provided help that she need
She began to cry and said I am feeling ashamed for what I did?

She was so impressed and became a Muslim
At the age of 63, when he was near to his death
He calls to all Muslims to have unity
I am leaving behind for you two things to follow
It is my life (sunnah) and the Holy Quran.

Copy right ( 2006 ) Wasi Siddiqui

[qoute]But, as any educated, self respecting and honorable man would, i politely refuse to step down to your level of numb, brainless and pitifully weak insults. This, after all, is a scholarly forum.[/quote]

Not going to jump into the discussion on this one but I thought I would point out that you did exactly what you said you would politely refuse to do.

.

Sign*Reader wrote: BTW Your fore fathers did and are doing enough terrorizing of the world to recolonise it, so your belly aching also doesn't matter. Does Iraq come to mind

So if someone of the same race, religion, nationality etc, as me has at some point in time "terrorized the world", then it means I am not entitled to pass comment on current events or express an opinion?

Does that include everyone on Earth, because if it does that doesn't leave many people.... 

Hanan wrote: Not going to jump into the discussion on this one but I thought I would point out that you did exactly what you said you would politely refuse to do. You go, Girl ... you tell this American in disguise what's what! This, after all, is a scholarly forum If that was really the case then your flag-loving fellow American would be restricted to gushing on Nazi forums only ...

Girl? You just couldn't go with out mentioning the flag I see, not surprizing with you intelligence. You seem to mention Nazis in a few post to me, wishing I would join the club with you?

TheHindu wrote: Your post includes a side about Hindu domination in the state of Gujrat. Perhaps it hasnt occured to you that these very bombings were instigated by, *surprise*, MUSLIMS! Instead of being thankful and proud to be residents of a diverse and homogenous nation, these men took it upon themselves to end the lives of women and children, for no apparent reason. The response of the Hindu community to this senseless violence was as justifyable and understandable as any. Who do these Muslims think they are to, as mere minorities, claim the lives of the nation's majority population? If anything, they should be grateful to the motherland; after all, atleast they were not relegated to living in Pakistan.

India report clears Muslims in train fire

By Shaikh Azizur Rahman
THE WASHINGTON TIMES
March 9, 2006

NEW DELHI -- An inquiry report has cleared Muslims of causing a deadly train fire four years ago that sparked savage communal riots in western India.
    The fire in the western state of Gujarat in February 2002 claimed the lives of 59 Hindus and sparked religious riots in which at least 2,000 persons, mostly Muslims, were killed.
    A Railway Ministry-appointed inquiry commission concluded last week that the fire was caused by an accident and not by any deliberate attack by Muslims.
    The main opposition Bharatiya Janata Party (BJP) and its Hindu allies, who maintain that the fire was caused by Muslim arson, plan to protest the inquiry finding when Railway Minister Laloo Prasad Yadav presents the report in Parliament later this week.
    The ruling Congress party and its leftist allies say the report backs their long-held charge that the BJP-led government in Gujarat state exploited the accident to target Muslims.
    "This report is totally unacceptable," an angry Hindu leader said.
    BJP President Rajnath Singh saw political motivations behind the report, which will be released ahead of assembly elections in five states.
    "Simply to win minority [Muslim] votes, Laloo Yadav and his friends have tailored this report in an immoral way," Mr. Singh said.
    Hindu activists were returning to Gujarat after a visit to the disputed site of a demolished 16th-century mosque in the north Indian temple town of Ayodhya when the train caught fire.
    Hindu parties said a group of Muslims in the Gujarat town of Godhra attacked the activists and burned their train car.
    The investigation committee has apportioned no blame for the disaster.
    "[The fire] was not the result of a deliberate attack by anybody, and there is no evidence of any conspiracy whatsoever," committee head Umesh Chandra Banerjee, a retired Supreme Court judge, said in his report.

Gujarat police and the state's BJP government had said a mob of Muslims threw gasoline inside the coach, set it on fire and locked the doors from outside, preventing the mostly Hindu passengers from escaping.
    But Mr. Banerjee said the blaze in the carriage could be "ascribed to an accidental fire."
    The Communist Party of India-Marxist (CPI-M), an ally in the federal coalition led by the Congress Party, demanded the resignation of Gujarat Chief Minister Narendra Modi after the Banerjee report.
    "This report has exposed Modi and his party. Now it is clear that they carried out an anti-Muslim pogrom against an innocent community," said Rupchand Pal, a CPI-M member of the Parliament.
    Congress spokesman Abhishek Singhvi said: "The findings clearly prove that the entire campaign of disinformation and insinuations launched by Modi immediately after the fire was simply for petty political gains."

http://www.washingtontimes.com/world/20060308-093158-1245r.htm - http://www.washingtontimes.com/world/20060308-093158-1245r.h tm

Hanan wrote: Oops: You seem to mention Nazis in a few post to me, wishing I would join the club with you? No, darlin�, I OUTED YOU as a Nazi. Goodness, what is it with you? Your seething anger is going to melt my screen soon. Punkin�, if you have nothing worth reading to say, couldn�t you just be quiet for a while? Please, pretty please?

Hanan:

If you are going to quote me, at least get it right! I have not mentioned Nazis on this forum and neither would I ever do so 

runner wrote: Perhaps this is a good time to return to the actual events which elicited all of this bruhaha.  While I can't say I agree with everything that this commentator says, it is a stunningly accurate and thoughtful exposition.  Everyone please read the whole article before proceeding with more vituperation.  Salaam.  In Defense of Pope Benedict The Catholic Church is an enemy of the War Party by Justin Raimondo What is an erudite and perhaps overly scholarly pope to do in the face of a news media that insists on cherry-picking his pronouncements � buried amidst references to obscure Byzantine emperors and abstruse theological constructs � and making of them blazing headlines? There isn't much he can do, and perhaps this is for the best. Benedict XVI is blunter and more assertive than his predecessor, and if I were a practicing Catholic � which I am not � I would be glad of it. In an era dominated by relativism and political correctness, where all religions are supposedly equal and truth is a matter of opinion (usually someone else's), it is refreshing to see someone uphold what they believe and defend it against all comers. Clearly, Benedict had no idea that, in returning to the University of Regensburg, where he once taught theology, and delivering a lecture with the supremely inoffensive title of "Faith, Reason, and the University � Memories and Reflections," he would be charged with launching the Tenth Crusade. Yet that is plainly happening.299... Continued at: http://antiwar.com/justin/?articleid=9709

You are again justifying that Pope made no mistake. And the more you justify, the more you will inflame Muslim passsion. In so many posts, it has clearly been described why Muslims think the way they think about this matter, yet you are adamant to make your point that he made no mistake. He made serious mistake, and only a sincere apology would help rebuild Muslim-Christian relations.

Next time, you post anything, read the warning in this section. Don't post something that would only inflame Muslim sentiments. You are at it again and again, and it is really sad.

Peace

Hanan wrote: As someone who dislikes religion you sure have an affinity for the Christian religion, must be Christian indoctrination during your formative years. I don�t see you condemning Christians for the Holocaust and Genocide! You�re just another Muslim-hater in disguise. This is my opinion and I'm entitled to it just like your entitled to yours.

That really is pathetic Hannon. I am talking about CURRENT events and the world today. so dont be so mellow dramatic. I'm not a muslim hater. I'd be the first to condemn christians and anyone involved in the Halocaust. Some people even suggest that the Halocaust didnt even happen, did you know that. Those people make me sick.

However I do hate Religions, Muslim or christian or whatever. your like street gangs fighting each other and controling people, and its TRUE to say that the Muslim extremists react to criticism with extreme violence and target civilians and that disgusts me but i am from a christian country and the peodophile priests and opressive church here sicken me too. Now i can say that here without being called a christian hater, because its true. Its pathetic that you try to label me a muslim hater. I wonder do you label anyone who disagrees with you as a "muslim hater"???? I just know you do but then again its just my opinion so dont go putting a jihad on me or anything.

Hanan wrote: RELIGION BREEDS VIOLENCE ?and which religion would that be?

okay now read this slowly hanan....ALL OF THEM.... but as a NEUTRAL i find the muslim one the most violent at the moment to look at. Alot of Muslims seem to react violently to criticism which i cannot justify but you seem to be able too.

Hanan wrote: Also why cant these people accept the popes IMMEDIATE appology instead of killing a nun There was NO immediate apology, or any kind of apology from Ratzinger himself. The killing of an innocent victim, in this case a Nun, is a crime and must be punished.

well my news reported that the pope apologized. If he didnt then I got the wrong info and apologise and if he did then you should apologise to me..  either way though it doesnt excuse the reactions of violence, nothing does.........and that nuns MURDER was the biggest crime in this pathetic story. How good of you to admit it.

Hanan wrote: Leii: If you are going to quote me, at least get it right! I have not mentioned Nazis on this forum and neither would I ever do so I did not quote you. My message was to your friend ops154, or as I call him: �Oops (he did it again)� Sorry for the misunderstanding.

Apologies Hanan - I did not realise you meant someone else!

.

Hanan wrote: Leii: If you are going to quote me, at least get it right! I have not mentioned Nazis on this forum and neither would I ever do so I did not quote you. My message was to your friend ops154, or as I call him: �Oops (he did it again)� Sorry for the misunderstanding.

 I'm stilling laughing at the oops I did it again statement. Oh my you are a clever one but really tell me where I was angry with you, you and whisper are the two who keep me coming back. As long as you are so naive and biased I will be back to correct you.

runner wrote: peacemaker wrote: runner wrote: Perhaps this is a good time to return to the actual events which elicited all of this bruhaha.  While I can't say I agree with everything that this commentator says, it is a stunningly accurate and thoughtful exposition.  Everyone please read the whole article before proceeding with more vituperation.  Salaam.  In Defense of Pope Benedict The Catholic Church is an enemy of the War Party by Justin Raimondo What is an erudite and perhaps overly scholarly pope to do in the face of a news media that insists on cherry-picking his pronouncements � buried amidst references to obscure Byzantine emperors and abstruse theological constructs � and making of them blazing headlines? There isn't much he can do, and perhaps this is for the best. Benedict XVI is blunter and more assertive than his predecessor, and if I were a practicing Catholic � which I am not � I would be glad of it. In an era dominated by relativism and political correctness, where all religions are supposedly equal and truth is a matter of opinion (usually someone else's), it is refreshing to see someone uphold what they believe and defend it against all comers. Clearly, Benedict had no idea that, in returning to the University of Regensburg, where he once taught theology, and delivering a lecture with the supremely inoffensive title of "Faith, Reason, and the University � Memories and Reflections," he would be charged with launching the Tenth Crusade. Yet that is plainly happening.299... Continued at: http://antiwar.com/justin/?articleid=9709 You are again justifying that Pope made no mistake. And the more you justify, the more you will inflame Muslim passsion. In so many posts, it has clearly been described why Muslims think the way they think about this matter, yet you are adamant to make your point that he made no mistake. He made serious mistake, and only a sincere apology would help rebuild Muslim-Christian relations. Next time, you post anything, read the warning in this section. Don't post something that would only inflame Muslim sentiments. You are at it again and again, and it is really sad. Peace Br. Peacemaker, I have not bandied about charges without foundation, nor have I refused to furnish evidence for the charges I have not made, nor of the name-calling that I didn't do. I am merely and meekly inviting you to reexamine your conclusions.  Do you find that "inflames Muslim sentiments"?  Is it not possible that a human Muslim or his/her sentiments are in error? Did you read the article, or did you reject it before discovering what it actually said?

I always read first prior to responding. And also that I think twice before making any statement. But, as a human, I may make mistakes like any other human, and when that happens, I sincerely apologize, and avoid making the same mistake again, and that is the secret of my success by the grace of Allah.

I don't know what was in the heart of the Pope at the time he made the speech as only Allah knows that. Maybe, that is what he knew about Islam out of ignorance. But, once it has become clear that his speech affected 1.5 billion Muslims on the planet, he should have sincerely apologized, and that would have opened the door again for dialogue between Muslims and Christians. But, if he refuses to accept that he made a wrong speech, it would, undoubtedly confirm that he was fully aware what he was doing.

Can't he just say, " I sincerely apologize for that kind of speech and I don't agree with emperor's view quoted on Islam." It would have been the best time to show the world that here is true Christianity that promotes peace and tolerance, mercy and compassion. But, on one hand innocent people become victims, and on other, we are still discussing if something went wrong.

Making mistake is far less serious than not recognizing it. And I am really upset to see this negative trend between Muslim-Christian relations.

Peace 

I have to say that, although I have some very strong views regarding these matters, after reading some of the posts on here and seeing things from another's point of view, I am beginning to realise how offensive the Pope's speech must have been to the Muslim community. 

It would be not be very hard for the Pope to clarify what he meant and to apologise to Muslims around the world for causing such turmoil. Unfortunately, it always more difficult to admit we are wrong, is it not?

And to clarify that He does not represent or speak to all Christians around the World, he is the head of the Catholic Church, which, yes, is a lot of people, but not all of us!

runner wrote: peacemaker wrote: runner wrote: peacemaker wrote: runner wrote: Perhaps this is a good time to return to the actual events which elicited all of this bruhaha.  While I can't say I agree with everything that this commentator says, it is a stunningly accurate and thoughtful exposition.  Everyone please read the whole article before proceeding with more vituperation.  Salaam.  In Defense of Pope Benedict The Catholic Church is an enemy of the War Party by Justin Raimondo What is an erudite and perhaps overly scholarly pope to do in the face of a news media that insists on cherry-picking his pronouncements � buried amidst references to obscure Byzantine emperors and abstruse theological constructs � and making of them blazing headlines? There isn't much he can do, and perhaps this is for the best. Benedict XVI is blunter and more assertive than his predecessor, and if I were a practicing Catholic � which I am not � I would be glad of it. In an era dominated by relativism and political correctness, where all religions are supposedly equal and truth is a matter of opinion (usually someone else's), it is refreshing to see someone uphold what they believe and defend it against all comers. Clearly, Benedict had no idea that, in returning to the University of Regensburg, where he once taught theology, and delivering a lecture with the supremely inoffensive title of "Faith, Reason, and the University � Memories and Reflections," he would be charged with launching the Tenth Crusade. Yet that is plainly happening.299... Continued at: http://antiwar.com/justin/?articleid=9709 You are again justifying that Pope made no mistake. And the more you justify, the more you will inflame Muslim passsion. In so many posts, it has clearly been described why Muslims think the way they think about this matter, yet you are adamant to make your point that he made no mistake. He made serious mistake, and only a sincere apology would help rebuild Muslim-Christian relations. Next time, you post anything, read the warning in this section. Don't post something that would only inflame Muslim sentiments. You are at it again and again, and it is really sad. Peace Br. Peacemaker, I have not bandied about charges without foundation, nor have I refused to furnish evidence for the charges I have not made, nor of the name-calling that I didn't do. I am merely and meekly inviting you to reexamine your conclusions.  Do you find that "inflames Muslim sentiments"?  Is it not possible that a human Muslim or his/her sentiments are in error? Did you read the article, or did you reject it before discovering what it actually said? I always read first prior to responding. And also that I think twice before making any statement. But, as a human, I may make mistakes like any other human, and when that happens, I sincerely apologize, and avoid making the same mistake again, and that is the secret of my success by the grace of Allah. I don't know what was in the heart of the Pope at the time he made the speech as only Allah knows that. Maybe, that is what he knew about Islam out of ignorance. But, once it has become clear that his speech affected 1.5 billion Muslims on the planet, he should have sincerely apologized, and that would have opened the door again for dialogue between Muslims and Christians. But, if he refuses to accept that he made a wrong speech, it would, undoubtedly confirm that he was fully aware what he was doing. Can't he just say, " I sincerely apologize for that kind of speech and I don't agree with emperor's view quoted on Islam." It would have been the best time to show the world that here is true Christianity that promotes peace and tolerance, mercy and compassion. But, on one hand innocent people become victims, and on other, we are still discussing if something went wrong. Making mistake is far less serious than not recognizing it. And I am really upset to see this negative trend between Muslim-Christian relations. Peace    I cannot agree more with your last two paragraphs, brother.  As to the one prior to that I invite you to inspect the following statement: "STATEMENT BY CARD. TARCISIO BERTONE, S.D.B., SECRETARY OF STATE Saturday, 16 September 2006 Given the reaction in Muslim quarters to certain passages of the Holy Father's address at the University of Regensburg, and the clarifications and explanations already presented through the Director of the Holy See Press Office, I would like to add the following: - The position of the Pope concerning Islam is unequivocally that expressed by the conciliar document Nostra Aetate: "The Church regards with esteem also the Muslims. They adore the one God, living and subsisting in Himself; merciful and all-powerful, the Creator of heaven and earth, Who has spoken to men; they take pains to submit wholeheartedly to even His inscrutable decrees, just as Abraham, with whom the faith of Islam takes pleasure in linking itself, submitted to God. Though they do not acknowledge Jesus as God, they revere Him as a prophet. They also honor Mary, His virgin Mother; at times they even call on her with devotion. In addition, they await the day of judgment when God will render their deserts to all those who have been raised up from the dead. Finally, they value the moral life and worship God especially through prayer, almsgiving and fasting" (no. 3)... Continued at: http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/secretariat_state/card-ber tone/2006/documents/rc_seg-st_20060916_dichiarazione_en.html And I invite you to read the whole statement rather than the clip posted here, or what other talkers have had to say about it.  I think we --all-- tend to react far too quickly based upon what others (sometimes malevolent others) have said about something rather than restraining our passions to find out the full story.  And when we do we often multiply the magnitude of the problem many fold. Its our human weakness, whether Jewish, Christian, Muslim or aetheist.  At its best religions give us tools and the desire to overcome these human weaknesses...and that's why its so ironic and frustrating to find these sorts of misunderstandings among people of faith, whichever one that is. And let me be clear, it is my view that it is our faiths either incompletely or incorrectly taught or learned rather than the revelations which we share that results in these misunderstandings; from hardened hearts to the point of heedlessness to reason even to  murder, not from the revelations themselves.  And we are all called to resist the urge to fall into that Shaitonic trap. Salaam.

Yes, I visited that link. But, as you see, that falls short of sincere apology. Pope feels sorry that his speech was misinterpreted and Muslims were troubled. It doesn�t say anywhere that he was sorry that he made wrong speech and that he doesn�t, in any way, endorse views of the emperor, quoted in the speech on Islam.

You see few sentences of that sort would have been very positive to lessen the tensed situation. And I think, that was one of the reasons why climate didn�t cool down after that kind of apology. With that said, I have already made my point that any form of violent reaction to his speech is not allowed in Islam. And if people choose to do so, they do on their own and that has no basis in Islam.

I pray to Allah that Muslims and Christians together realize that we have many common points. We Muslims believe in Jesus ( peace be upon him ) as a beloved and mighty Messenger of Allah, his miraculous birth, mother Maryam ( Mary ) ( peace be upon her ). We also wait for the day of judgement just as Christians do. We are also waiting that Jesus ( peace be upon him ) will return to Earth once again before the day of judgement. These similarities must be made known to the world to overcome the climate of fear and distrust.

May Allah guide us all.

"and nearest among them in love to the believers wilt thou find those who say, "We are Christians": because amongst these are men devoted to learning and men who have renounced the world, and they are not arrogant." Qur'an 5: 82

 Peace

Leii wrote: I have to say that, although I have some very strong views regarding these matters, after reading some of the posts on here and seeing things from another's point of view, I am beginning to realise how offensive the Pope's speech must have been to the Muslim community.  It would be not be very hard for the Pope to clarify what he meant and to apologise to Muslims around the world for causing such turmoil. Unfortunately, it always more difficult to admit we are wrong, is it not? And to clarify that He does not represent or speak to all Christians around the World, he is the head of the Catholic Church, which, yes, is a lot of people, but not all of us!

I appreciate your kind input on the matter. I pray to Allah that peace prevails. And Muslims and Christians sit together, talk and share what Allah has blessed us in common. Muslims are only non-Christians who believe in Jesus ( peace be upon him ) as a mighty Messenger of Allah. The path of truth can lead us to peace and prosperity.

Peace

The Vatican's Tyrant

The Politics of Pope Rat

By MICHAEL CARMICHAEL

Addressing an academic group assembled at his former university at Regensburg in his native Germany, Pope Benedict XVI launched into a mystifying homily against Islam. At the height of the diatribe, Pope Benedict quoted a medieval monarch who insulted Islam by stating that Islam was both "evil and inhuman."

Predictably, the pope's ill-conceived outburst triggered outrage and protest throughout the world. Public demonstrations have called for a formal papal apology, and in Somalia, an aged nun became the victim of what is being portrayed as a reprisal.

In the midst of the emerging crisis, the pope issued yet another statement designed to quell the outrage and stem the violence. Strangely, in his new statement the pope chose to insult the Jews by quoting a biblical passage blaming them for the crucifixion of Jesus Christ. The pope must have had an unfortunate lapse of memory, for it would appear that he may have forgotten that the disciples were all Jews and so, too, were many of Jesus's myriads of followers who did not support the crucifixion.

This latest insult was not the first time that Pope Benedict has enraged the Jews. When he appeared at Auschwitz earlier this year, the pope had forgotten (deliberately, of course) to mention that the Holocaust was the product of Anti-Semitism. Instead, Benedict air-brushed the Anti-Semitism of Nazism and its collaborators out of history altogether in his clumsy attempt to revise the Holocaust.

Almost immediately following the outrage at the pope's Islamophobia, Angela Merkel, the right-wing Prime Minister of Germany, leapt to his defence. Following swiftly on her statement defending the Pope, election results from Merkel's home constituency confirmed the political resurgence of the far right in Germany.

The National Democratic Party � an extraordinary political euphemism for a party that espouses xenophobia, anti-semitism, Islamophobia, racial superiority of Nordic and Germanic races and Aryan supremacy - swept to victories that will allow them to send representatives to the German Parliament, the Bundestag. With this latest triumph of racial extremism, three radical parties will now be represented in the Bundestag. Merkel and her pope must be pleased.

Pope Benedict's statements about Islam have been shameful. While no monotheistic religion is blameless � and each has committed atrocities in the name of their divinity � Christianity and Judaism have long and atrocious records of war crimes extending back to the time of Joshua who led the Hebrews in the massacre of the people of Ai slaughtering twelve thousand men, women and children (Joshua 8:25). King David was a brutal warrior. Not only did he slay Goliath; he gruesomely desecrated the corpse by severing the head and brandished it about ghoulishly. In his poetic Book of Psalms, David addressed the Babylonians by writing a macabre curse, "A blessing on him who takes and dashes your babies against the rock!" (Psalm 137).

Neither was Jesus totally non-violent. "Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword." (Matthew 10:34) More. Jesus advocates the execution of rebellious children (Mark 7:9-10) and the amputation of limbs as punishment (Matthew 5:29-30).

In recent Islamophobic diatribes, the Pope and others have castigated the Muslims for their resort to the sword to spread their religion. This tactic is outrageous for it airbrushes the crusades, the Inquistion and the Holocaust out of history. All of these atrocities were perpetrated by Christians against millions of victims among the unfortunate non-believers, pagans, Jews and Muslims who lost their lives in wars, in courts of Inquistion or in the Nazi extermination camps arrayed across Germany and Poland that are coincidentally the sites of the birthplaces of the present pope and his immediate predecessor, John Paul II.

Worse than outrageous, these statements are lies, outright lies. The word "sword" does not occur in the Qu'ran � not even in the so-called "Sword Verse," (at-taubah 9:5) - but it certainly does occur in the Judaeo-Christian Bible where it appears at least 424 times. In fact, in the Bible the word "sword" appears more than one hundred times more frequently than the word for "peace."

In the Mosaic book of Deuteronomy, Chapter 20, the Lord God of Israel commands Moses to sack all cities in his wake, but � in those cities in the promised land � the Lord commands Moses to kill all of the inhabitants utterly � i.e. commit genocide. According to the writers of Deuteronomy, the Lord God of Israel ordered the Israelites to commit genocide by mass-murdering and massacring all of the Hittites, the Amorites, the Canaanites, the Perizzites, the Hivites and the Jebusites � a massive conglomeration of humanity equivalent to the populations of the Middle Eastern nations currently occupying Turkey, Syria, Lebanon, Jordan, the Palestinian territories and Iraq.

In the final book of the Christian Bible, the Revelations of St John the Divine, after the Rapture, Jesus Christ will return to commit genocide on all the inhabitants of the earth. Men, women, children, animals and plants will be convulsed, exploded, lacerated or incinerated in a global holocaust that will eradicate every last vestige of life on our planet.

The current Pope is not the only holder of his office to foment wars against members of other religions. The crusades were papal onslaughts against Jews and Muslims. The Jewish populations in the German provinces of Europe were the first victims of the first crusade. A long line of papal diatribes led the way for the Nazi genocide of the Jews in the same anti-semitic region of Europe.

In the nineteenth century, Pope Leo XIII explicitly stated,

"The death sentence is a necessary and efficacious means for the Church to attain its end when rebels act against it and disturbers of the ecclesiastical unity, especially obstinate heretics and heresiarchs, cannot be restrained by any other penalty from continuing to derange the ecclesiastical order and impelling others to all sorts of crime ... When the perversity of one or several is calculated to bring about the ruin of many of its children it is bound effectively to remove it, in such wise that if there be no other remedy for saving its people it can and must put these wicked men to death."

Pope Leo XIII's statement stands as a clear and blatant call to genocide of Jews, Muslims and non-believers. It is worth noting that in recent decades, the number of conversions from Christianity to Islam and Buddhism has been gaining momentum throughout the world � a phenomenon well known to the Vatican and its chief lieutenants including Josef Ratzinger, the former Hitler Youth.

Prior to becoming pope, Josef Ratzinger led a controversial career. Known as "God's Rottweiler," Ratzinger delivered numerous Islamophobic and Buddhaphobic harangues, and he excommunicated leading reformist theologians while crushing liberation theology and covering up the sex crimes of thousands of Catholic pirests. Ratzinger's ecclesiastical career is predicated on the radical reform of Roman Catholicism by returning it to medieval levels of absolutistic-totalitarian authority.

While his predecessor made explicit statements condemning the war in Iraq, Pope Benedict has done no such thing. Worse. During the American presidential election in 2004, when he was still a Cardinal, Josef Ratzinger sent a controversial letter to America's bishops threatening to excommunicate every Catholic who voted for Bush's opponent, Senator John Kerry. In doing so, Ratzinger became openly and willfully complicit in Bush's explicitly Islamophobic wars.

This pope has a well-established record of inciting wars against Islamic peoples. To date, Benedict's highly politicized statements have fomented wars between the Christian West and the Islamic Middle East. Neither before nor since assuming his papal throne has Benedict done anything worthy of note to increase genuine understanding between the major religions. For this reason alone, Benedict's is a failed papacy. For other reasons � especially his personal bigotry and his obstinate preference for political prejudice � Benedict's pontificate will be remembered as a disaster for Roman Catholicism.

Writing the greatest Christian literature of the medieval period, the Divina Comedia, Dante Aligheri boldly attacked the treacherous political machinations of the papacy in the fourteenth century. Seven centuries later, the situation is no different. The papacy is in the hands of a neoconservative political extremist, who views his personal role as that of a religious tyrant. There can be little serious doubt that the world will pay an extremely high price for his outrageous vanities.

Brother, in short, it is a roguish act. The whole Islamic world is caught up shouting and screaming.

I feel, we have far more important matters for our attention and energies than just shouting and screaming at God's Rottweiler. For instance, developing self defence teams and proper mechanisms, across the entire Muslim world, against US attacks with or without her "allies".

You may laugh at my suggestion, but this scenario is now simply imminent and whoever follows Bush will plough the same exact routine, with or wothout the public knowledge.

If anyone knows what is exactly happening in Afghanistan and why Iran is now being demonised, would begin to understand what those who now run the US actually have in their stomachs - minds, god bless, they don't have.

Is Islam a violent religion?

The Pope�s actual quotation is not just a medieval point of view. It is a common modern view; read any Western newspaper.

The quote said, �Show me just what Muhammad brought that was new, and then you shall find things only evil and inhuman, such as his command to spread by the sword the faith he preached.�

Is it true that the Koran contains such a command, and has it influenced modern terrorists? The answers, unfortunately, are �yes� and �yes�.

The so-called Sword Verse from Chapter 9 must have been in the emperor�s mind: �So when the sacred months have passed away, Then slay the idolaters wherever you find them."

�And take them captive and besiege them, and lie in wait for them in every ambush.�

Most of the Popes speech related to the influence of Classical Greek philosophy on early Christianity and the consequent requirement that God should be rational. That means, for example, that there can be no conversion by force.

Nowadays Islam is the ONLY major religion in which violence is a serious doctrinal issue. It is true that tribalised Roman Catholics and Protestants in Ireland have only recently stopped killing each other and vengeful Sikhs assassinated Indira Gandhi in India, but neither the Catholic nor the Protestant leaders believe in violence; nor do the Sikhs.

The Pope did not give offence. Muslims took it.

Taking offence is a blackmail strategy for the irrational and any excuse, real or imagined, will do: it is seen in the belligerent drunk, growling �What are you lookin� at?� or the gang member who draws a knife because he has been �dissed�. It works because polite, educated respondents try to treat this as a real question, to apologise and negotiate.

You cannot engage with a drunk or a knife, and you cannot engage  with those who manufacture offence as a weapon.

Is Islam a violent religion?

Would you now, kindly, also subtitle your post?

Does your sermon sum up that all the others of our world don't believe in violence but they just do a good job of carrying it out?

Rezz wrote: Is Islam a violent religion? The Pope�s actual quotation is not just a medieval point of view. It is a common modern view; read any Western newspaper. The quote said, �Show me just what Muhammad brought that was new, and then you shall find things only evil and inhuman, such as his command to spread by the sword the faith he preached.� Is it true that the Koran contains such a command, and has it influenced modern terrorists? The answers, unfortunately, are �yes� and �yes�. The so-called Sword Verse from Chapter 9 must have been in the emperor�s mind: �So when the sacred months have passed away, Then slay the idolaters wherever you find them." �And take them captive and besiege them, and lie in wait for them in every ambush.� Most of the Popes speech related to the influence of Classical Greek philosophy on early Christianity and the consequent requirement that God should be rational. That means, for example, that there can be no conversion by force. Nowadays Islam is the ONLY major religion in which violence is a serious doctrinal issue. It is true that tribalised Roman Catholics and Protestants in Ireland have only recently stopped killing each other and vengeful Sikhs assassinated Indira Gandhi in India, but neither the Catholic nor the Protestant leaders believe in violence; nor do the Sikhs. The Pope did not give offence. Muslims took it. Taking offence is a blackmail strategy for the irrational and any excuse, real or imagined, will do: it is seen in the belligerent drunk, growling �What are you lookin� at?� or the gang member who draws a knife because he has been �dissed�. It works because polite, educated respondents try to treat this as a real question, to apologise and negotiate. You cannot engage with a drunk or a knife, and you cannot engage  with those who manufacture offence as a weapon.

Chapter 9 is http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/009.qmt.html - AT-TAWBA (REPENTANCE, DISPENSATION)

Islam is religion of peace and submission to Allah. Please back up your claims with reliable sources, otherwise you will not be allowed to spread lies and misinformation here. You have already been warned many times in the past.

Well,

I hope Pope got the message , it is time to forgive him.

Wasi siddiqui

This issue can be solved when there will be a total understanding of the religion of Islam and Christianity. Inter-faith religious meeting must be held between east and west leaders.