I have to again question because the last time nobody really gave me a definite and personal answer only things THEY saw what was going on in the world in magizines, newspapers etc and attribute them to our administration. Let me first say as I had always been saying for the last three years I've been here is that I love my country. This is all I have ever known and though this country has a very dark history especially with my culture and ancestors I love the people here and what its becoming. This country like most countries if not all, has its definite short comings. Like most countries if not all it has its share of violence. Like most countries if not all, has contradictions, double standards. Even the Islamic empire as it was evolving had a dark history.

It proves that no country is without fault and no people is without blame but the fact that many of you continuously and blindly post things against the United States without criticizing the other side shows how truly bias we can become. Again I am Muslim but I cannot support a Muslim who kills himself for a cause or commits a criminal act for a cause. I know many Muslims here on this site that has indicated to me that they do and though I wont say no names here I find such a belief truly sad. I have been told that a Muslim who does bad should not be excommunicated but should be disciplined by other Muslims. I find that flawed I as a human and law abiding citizen of this country USA believe that the one unalienable law that all humans are entitled to is life.

I cannot support terrorism especially if its from a person claiming to be one of my own faith. I cannot hate anothers country as I do not know the whole of the country meaning, I don't know the people, evironment etc. But I feel that those of you from Turkey, Pakistan etc do not give me that same respect. Many of you who may work or don't watch the news religiously and read the paper (especially knowing that all media outlets are biased) write post on the tragedies of Muslims and how people are dying and how arrogant and ignorant America is but you never post anything from the other side.

I find much of the American hate filled posts redundant and even though MOCKBA once told me "America is the prime aggressor of wars" we too are also the aggressor of our own affairs. I tend to show that we Muslims are obtaining this psychological mindset of moral absence when it comes to conflict. For example if something happens such as an American made Israeli fighter jet that bombs a town and kills innocence we call this a disgusting and terrible act yes? But if a Muslim suicide bomber gets on a bus, looks around and sees elder, young alike who had nothing to do with his torment or his people blow it up we call it a reaction to oppression.

I find such arguments ridiculous and absurd. WE ALL ARE MORALLY ACCOUNTABLE especially if we kill innocence and especially if we kill people who had nothing to do with our torment. There is nothing in Shariah that states even in military battles to kill both the enemey and those who live amongst the enemy. If so, prove this to me now. But what is this moral absence? Many of you with your straw-man arguments tell me that "What can they do?" they fight with tanks and advance weaponry? Those of you who think this way believe that there is some sort of justification of suicide bombing. There is none.

There is no excuse for the mass murdering of any people Israeli, American, Arab or Muslim. Nobody! I would hope even in the anger of those who hate my country would see both sides and condemn wrong doing on both sides. Sorry  brother Suleyman although you are my brother I don't mean to single you out but posting things about my country yet ignoring the issues of your own surprises me. Friends of mine who are Armenian attest to their parents parents on how they were slaughtered by the Turks not so long ago. Whisper who claims to be Afghanistanian, what about the countless woman who, without even a trial get taken into a soccer field only to be executed not with dignity but with two in the head from a high powered rifle.

There is no moral accountable absence! I just get so upset when post after post I see "America lies" or "Israeli murderers" yet nobody post anything about what we do wrong as if we dont do anything wrong. Then, if we do something wrong its only a reaction to being oppressed. LOL give me a break! even an oppressed person is still morally accountable. For instance if I go to jail for 25 years only to be let out at the mistake of the courts investigation does that give me a right to kill a lawyer because I'm pissed off that I was locked up for 25 years? NO! I'm still morally accountable.

So the question I have to ask after my rant is why do you dislike America? Give your own personal reason not some Al-Jazeera version I mean your own version. Please!

BTW those of you who may respond please spare me your justification of immoral acts by either side I have refuted from several comments above on how there is no absence of moral ccountability so please spare me the "But they are only reacting to oppression"

Bismillah

Assalamu'alaikum!

you wrote: I find much of the American hate filled posts redundant and even though MOCKBA once told me "America is the prime aggressor of wars" we too are also the aggressor of our own affairs. I tend to show that we Muslims are obtaining this psychological mindset of moral absence when it comes to conflict. For example if something happens such as an American made Israeli fighter jet that bombs a town and kills innocence we call this a disgusting and terrible act yes? But if a Muslim suicide bomber gets on a bus, looks around and sees elder, young alike who had nothing to do with his torment or his people blow it up we call it a reaction to oppression.

Brother Israfil, I would appreciate if you remind me when I made such statement and also provide the context in which it was featured since this is not the first time you mention my ID in your posts.      

you wrote: This country like most countries if not all, has its definite short comings. Like most countries if not all it has its share of violence. Like most countries if not all, has contradictions, double standards. Even the Islamic empire as it was evolving had a dark history.

There should be no comparison of Islam's development with the growth of whatever materialistic empires you want to mention. The principles, the fundamentals, the intentions are totally different. The Islamic empire never had any "dark history" contrary to what you mention in your post. Islam's growth was always with the light of faith and conviction and resulting from it action. I suggest you go back and re-read history again. Perhaps the events that you are referring to were no longer part of the growth of "Islamic Empire" but rather the beginning of its destruction... despite territorial gain through lands and people that declared Islam before taking time to understand its true meaning.

Your patriotism for your country is deserving of respect. However, with all consideration to all members in this board, whenever the word 'Israel' or 'Israeli' is mentioned I cannot stop thinking of the land being stolen from the Palestinian people and the suffering that continued in light of the official statements made by the Zionist governments and their leaders.

I can still recall crowds of Russians boarding planes and lining up in visa counters to become "Israelis"... many of them openly faked their identities and fabricated all kinds of "discrimination" reports only to escape from the Soviet Union... others are still pursuing opportunities to settle for free and live on a welfare package in a safer environment of Germany... �No Israel, please! Germany� send us to Germany�� is what they beg at today�s counters.

I also recall numerous Palestinian friends I met in many countries... they, too, faked their papers to raise families in a safer though not as comfortable environments and not on easy terms. Forced out of their rightful birthplace they however prevented themselves from blowing-up everything in the world of silent "Muslims" and violent non-Muslims in despair but never to forget their birthplace and never to rant uselessly about their misfortunes. Quite a contrast, if you want to agree. And this is no al-Jazeera or Steven Spielberg, as per your request.

Regardless of whether the land and lives of the Palestinians were sold by a Western capitalist group or an Arab traitor organization, the establishment and further expansion of Israel was a criminal act. Regardless of Saddam�s licentious behaviour, invasion of Iraq was a criminal act. And the link between Afghanistan and 911 no longer interests anyone� Ignorant Afghan tribesmen and their lack of knowledge of Islam has nothing to do with America. Somehow it is America who feels it is in her priority to rescue nomad woman in Afghanistan instead of attending to her own people drowning in faeces of New Orleans.

You should not ignore anyone's reminder of attacks being a "reaction to oppression". There are different people with different characters and different cultures. It is not without horror that I read of beheaded captives in Iraq... but I do not refuse to listen to the story of those who deliver such horror, too. And painfully, it often makes more sense...   

Some aspire to die for the land, others aspire to die for their family and property. There are some who aspire to just DIE, because they have been robbed off everything they had... unfortunately, though seldom, faith too. And they no longer want to believe in Allah, not to mention of fruitless peace parades, hypocritical solidarity and endless chains of petitions. And since their faith becomes clouded with immence emotional trauma, they are capable of doing anything... Once again, it is easy for us to build our own versions of peace models in the comfort we are having. Let's keep that in mind, too.

You want reason but only the one that fits framework of your own worldview and understanding. You want to fight but strictly with a condition that only YOU are allowed to win. You don�t want graphics, visuals, reports, video- evidence of horror or firsthand experience of blood and pain... You want philosophical contemplations... you want "versions" to conveniently pick from for further analysis and judgment.

Perhaps this, to give you a preview, is one of the reasons why I dislike America... for her advocating self-centered behaviour and aspiring to achieve her targets either through breaking the rules or shamelessly distorting them in her own interest... promoting only her right to live with no consideration of others' existence... achieving her success even if it needs elimination of competitors and even friends� with utter hypocrisy and artificiality... paranoia and self-suggested phobias� walking in zigzags instead of focusing on the Straight Path...

Now, where is the �moral absence�?

MOCKBA,

A very moving and passionate statement by you indeed.....

You said:

Brother Israfil, I would appreciate if you remind me when I made such statement and also provide the context in which it was featured since this is not the first time you mention my ID in your posts.      

Unless you have different individuals using your ID the comment you made to me was indeed in a PM which was made in context of an issue that I had (which alludes my memory).

It is undestandable of your passionate plea (in the sense of the word) of how the suffering of the people of the Middle East must take prescedence of our hearts and minds. However, even in your plight for our understanding of the people of the Middle East you still fail to see (as well as mention) the plight of others. What ever happened to those who are suffering in Africa far longer than the precious and fragile people of Palestine? Perhaps there is some cultural bias here in mentioning the suffering of others. Sure we mention what goes on in the Middle East because its what is going on but rape, plundrer, murder and the like are happening everyday in Africa as well as historically.

You said the following:

The Islamic empire never had any "dark history" contrary to what you mention in your post.

As you have suggested to me perhaps you would re-read the history of the Almohad Dynasty who, slaughered many Jews and Christians (non-military personnel have you) for the city of Cordova. Or perhaps you'd like to reflect on the Caliph of Egypt in 1055 in a fit of rage ordered the destruction of the Holy Sepulcher. Or perhaps you'd like to review the Ummayd dynasty period or the Almohad period and how Muslims at one point were fighting each other for land. Yes this civilization had its own dark period at one point. Another thing you'd might want to look at is the Ottoman Empire and how it took little boys as slaves and made them into janissaries.

you said:

Bismillah ir rahman ir rahim,

I am no scholar, just throwing in my few cents on this topic.

Moral accountability ...

The Quran says, if the ummul momineen were to be guilty of immoral conduct their punishment will be double.

It also says that the hudud of allah, on a free man is double than that on a slave.

It also says, there is no barrier between the dua of an opressed and Allah.

Why is it that the Quran does not see all (who are in varied situations) as eqaul when it comes to accountability? and punishemnts? and supplications?

Deprivation is a cause of certain results, one cannot deny.

Our situations are not an excuse for our immorality, but how many times are we successful in opposing the situations that drag us into guilt? - man was created in the finest of the moulds, but is he who is cast to the lowest of the lows! Why are the angels not cast to the lowest of the lows? why only man? Because we have a will, and we choose, not on fitra, but thru circumstances!

Give someone food, shelter, medicine, schooling, security and peace, and rob the other off everything, and expect both to behave identically on a spiritual scale? is that right? No, it is not. 

Islam says cut off the hands of those who steal, but read the tafsirs, it is not allowed to implement this law of the devine unless the situations in the land are such that ther is no reason for one to steal.

When there is hunger and deprivation, and a person is compelled to steal, should his hands be cut off for the same? NO! And if the sharia is implemented on him it is an abuse of sharia!

Even the religion is flexible to variations in circumstances.

 Everyone has moral accountability, and there is no justification to suicide bombing. There is no justification, and any who invents an evil is punished, like any who follows the evil thus invented is punished. So the inventor of unlawful murder is a criminal, and all those who followed are likewise criminals.

Every infant who was burried alive shall be questioned on the judgement day for what crime it was burried ... ofcourse it is not the infant who committed the crime, and this question is a rehtoric in the Quran. Those who burried this one alive shall be questioned - killing of women and children even in a declared war is HARAAM, thus by the same token suicide bombing is haraam. and,  shelling explosives on civilians is haraam. Not aiding the wounded or restraining help from the wounded is also haraam!

So...

What should be said about the behavior of a self sufficient country that goes on war with a poor nation with an agenda of stealing black gold?

What should be said about the agenda of nations who reduced the inhabitants of a land �nto a do or die situation?

What should be said about nations that have everything from basic needs to every kind of luxuries and sit there dumbfounded when Lebnon is being reduced to rubbles? 

Can we ask about moral accountabilities?

why is this happening with muslims is the question we must address.

what muslims must be doing to change the situation is another question we must ask ourselves.

Islam is the best religion. It is THE way of life. It was revealed through the chosen prophet for whom it is said that were it not for him, allah would not have created anything. But, his ummah is humiliated on earth today? why?

This question is not so narrow as the events of Lebnon, Palestine, Afghanistan, Iraq or Kashmir.

man is created in the finest of moulds, but he brings himself to the lowest ... because he is in haste, and he breaks the trust of Allah, which the mountains and the earth were not ready to take.

 Allah does not change the situation of a people unless they change it themselves.

If the muslims in nations outside the above menitoned do not put pressure on their governments for an improvement they are not one body, one ummah.

There is no place for nationalistic pride in islam. For that matter there is no place for pride in islam, because islam is about istislam - submission. One who submits is humble, not proud. Pride is the lower garment of Allah, and whosoever touches it is wretched.

If we humble ourselves with allah, He will elevate our ranks amongst His beloved salves, and if we are proud, he will humiliate us, so which is better?

If we look into ourselves, our affair in this world is not about nationalisitc pride, it is about istislam to one God. This is what the muslims have forgotten, and this is what has brought their humiliation!

The muslim ummah should repent, and again repent, for forgeting its purpose in life.

Muslims should be showing compassion and love , and become the paramount examples of love and compassion. They should feel the pain of another, and pray for deliverance from pain not reproach other for crying from pain. No, those who retaliate like beasts in pain are not true muslims. Those who inflict pain are also not true muslims, and those who are not compassionate to the ailing of human race are also not true muslims.

Muslims are lacking in spirituality. Muslims are lacking in their service to God. Muslims are lagging behind in their duty as the vicergents of Allah on earth ... and, muslims are humiliated!

It is said in a hadith serve this duniya, and it will make you its slave. Serve allah, and He will make this duniya your slave. Muslims are serving duniya and they are humiliated.

It is said in another hadith, make this duniya your goal and you will loose both worlds (ie this duniya and akhira) and make the hearafter your goal, this world will come begging on its knees for your acceptance. Muslims have made this duniya their goals, and they are being humiliated.

So address the question of why muslims are humiliated, and address the issue of the purpose of man on earth! And one will come to the realization that all other questions return to this issue.

Dear UmmTaaha,

I agree with everything you say!

NajamSahar

Bismillah

Assalaamu'alaikum!

Brother Israfil,

Firstly, it is useful to keep references or at least remember the context if you are planning to quote someone or mention IDs in your posts. You may not have intended to but you have put many members of this board in the context as if they support suicide bombings, violence aggression and killing of innocents.  

Human suffering is, indeed, present in every corner of the world and very likely within a walking distance from each of us. Nobody needs to be reminded of that. In my reply, I was trying to relate to events that were discussed at that point in time and stay close to examples of which you wrote. Having re-read your initial post I hardly found any mention of African plight. Let's try to stay focused.

You have only proven my assumption correct by sharing historical events of the Muslim Ummah that in reality marked the beginning of its destruction which continues today. It was about territorial ambition and material gain that drove Muslims further from true practices of Islam to eventually weaken them completely.   

You are more learned on the subject of opression of African people in America, therefore I will refrain from adding or commenting much on that. If you had a chance to travel outside of your continent, work, live and communicate with common people of the countries you visited you would learn that there are different cultures and values that are cherished. It may take centuries for some to respond to oppression committed against them while others may not wait a second, yet there are some who accept it as their fate and do not resist it at all.  

You are better aware of how 400 years of slavery has effected you personally and how such effect can be compared to a person's who has lost his family in a rocket attack today. I am not sure if it is appropriate for you to draw such comparisons. Do you feel the pain of your 4th generation forefathers' tortures the same way a child is feeling hers after losing her limbs in an a rocket attack today? You may attribute this to my "passionate plea (in the sense of the word") but i find it not very right for the person who had just had a wholesome meal in the comfort of peace at his house to call those starving in pain and in the midst of war for patience. To advise "brethren on the other side of the world" to exercise patience, you have to be on that side of the world and feel it...

It is forbidden to kill oneself intentionally in Islam, regardless of whether it kills or endangers others. I hope we agree on this. Now going back to the main question you posed, have you ever noticed how many innocents has your army killed, raped and humiliated in various parts of the world just over the last few years...? Perhaps if you took a closer look you would't be looking for answers and personal opinions anymore.

Also, I strongly recommend you (as my Muslim brother) to read "Confessions of An Economic Hit Man", by John Perkins at your leisure. A man, one from your own, sharing the bitter reality (not some conspiracy theory) that deals with the very subject you raised... Perhaps he is a more credible figure than any of those you met or heard from to make you ponder and not ask the same question again...

I also hope you read more than write... 

http://www.economichitman.com/ - http://www.economichitman.com/

Excerpt:

"In 2003, I departed Quito in a Subaru Outback and headed for Shell on a mission that was like no other I had ever accepted. I was hoping to end a war I had helped create. As is the case with so many things we EHMs must take responsibility for, it is a war that is virtually unknown anywhere outside the country where it is fought. I was on my way to meet with the Shuars, the Kichwas, and their neighbors the Achuars, the Zaparos, and the Shiwiars�tribes determined to prevent our oil companies from destroying their homes, families, and lands, even if it means they must die in the process. For them, this is a war about the survival of their children and cultures, while for us it is about power, money, and natural resources. It is one part of the struggle for world domination and the dream of a few greedy men, global empire.

That is what we EHMs do best: we build a global empire. We are an elite group of men and women who utilize international financial organizations to foment conditions that make other nations subservient to the corporatocracy running our biggest corporations, our government, and our banks. Like our counterparts in the Mafia, EHMs provide favors. These take the form of loans to develop infrastructure �electric generating plants, highways, ports, airports, or industrial parks. A condition of such loans is that engineering and construction companies from our own country must build all these projects. In essence, most of the money never leaves the United States; it is simply transferred from banking offices in Washington to engineering offices in New York, Houston, or San Francisco.

Despite the fact that the money is returned almost immediately to corporations that are members of the corporatocracy (the creditor), the recipient country is required to pay it all back, principal plus interest. If an EHM is completely successful, the loans are so large that the debtor is forced to default on its payments after a few years. When this happens, then like the Mafia we demand our pound of flesh. This often includes one or more of the following: control over United Nations votes, the installation of military bases, or access to precious resources such as oil or the Panama Canal. Of course, the debtor still owes us the money�and another country is added to our global empire."

Courtesy of : http://www.economichitman.com - www.economichitman.com

WA alaikum Salaam

Brother MOCKBA I used the comment from an early PM because it was a most striking remark made by you that stuck with me. Yes I am imperfect in my memory and yes I should have noted more thoroughly all what you have said. Well let me address one thing from you. When people make remarks here and when I note them I do not assume that they support anything but merely noting their comments and bringing it to their attention (if they dont know already). MOCKBA regardless what you think there are people here that do support suicide bombings. For instance when someone uses comments such as "Well, they don't have anything else to fight the military (Ahem excuse me Zionist)" it leaves me to believe that, that is an acceptable use of force.

Brother MOCKBA the problem with your ending statment on focusing on the suffering of Muslims is that when we do we lower ourselves to the question: Who is the cause of our pain? Rather what is the solution? We should be more worried on the solution to our problems and how we as a community can rise up against the challenges of life. Another problem with focusing just on our suffering is that people tend to be bias and over emphasize their own pain and their peoples pain. I think we need to realize is that there are others who have suffered in the world (perhaps more so than those in the Middle East). Jews have suffered. Arabs have suffered. Blacks, Whites and Native Americans have suffered.

The solution to our problems vary but what would start is the cognizance that all humans have a stake in this world and the only way to sustain life is to commit to a common goal to save it.

http://www.iviews.com/Articles/articles.asp?ref=IV0608-3076 - http://www.iviews.com/Articles/articles.asp?ref=IV0608-3076

Still do not understand why do they hate us?
8/11/2006
By: Jacob G. Hornberger
Iviews* -

 
You'll recall that immediately after the 9/11 attacks, U.S. officials declared that the attacks had been motivated by the terrorists' hatred for America's "freedom and values." That refrain produced the "war on terrorism" and, more recently, the "war on radical Islamo-fascism.�"

Nonsense, said libertarians. The anger and hatred that Arabs and Muslims have for the United States is rooted in decades of U.S. foreign policy in the Middle East. Ending the U.S. government's decades-old policy of empire and intervention would bring an end to the threat of terrorism (and radical "Islamo-fascism") against the United States.

The argument of the "freedom and values" crowd boils down to this: "The decades of U.S. supplying of advanced weaponry and foreign aid to the Israeli government, which is now being used to kill people in Lebanon, and the U.S. government's obeisance and submissiveness to the Israeli government, have had no adverse effect on how Arabs and Muslims feel about the United States. Their anger and hatred is caused by America's freedom of speech, freedom of the press, and rock and roll."

If there is another major terrorist attack on American soil, you can rest assured that the immediate response of U.S. officials will be: It has nothing to do with the U.S. government's unconditional U.S. taxpayer-provided support of the Israeli government ..

Therefore, the argument goes, the chants of "Death to Israel. Death to America" from hundreds of thousands of Shiites marching in Baghdad last week had nothing to do with U.S. foreign policy but were motivated instead by hatred for American principles and lifestyles.

(Reflect for a moment on the utter perversity of it all: U.S. soldiers in Iraq are dying to bring " freedom and democracy" to people who are screaming "Death to America" and whose radical Shiite government has aligned itself with Iran, which U.S. officials consider to be an arch-enemy of the United States.)

The same "freedom and values" argument was made with respect to more than a decade of brutal sanctions against Iraq, which contributed to the deaths of hundreds of thousands of Iraqi children - deaths that U.S. officials maintained were "worth it." People in the Middle East were indifferent to those deaths, the argument goes. Their anger and hatred were caused by the U.S. Bill of Rights and the gambling casinos in Las Vegas.

After 9/11, the greatest fear that U.S. officials had was that the American people would figure out that U.S. foreign policy was at the root of the terrorist attacks and thus demand a total reevaluation of U.S. foreign policy. That might well have meant an end to all foreign aid to the Middle East and a withdrawal of U.S. forces from the region. That could have obviously meant a significant diminution of the U.S. government's overseas empire and the military-industrial complex, along with the enormously high taxes needed to pay for it all. Thus, it's not surprising that U.S. officials immediately went on the propaganda attack after 9/11 in order to divert people's attention from U.S. foreign policy and toward the "freedom-and-values" motivation for the 9/11 attacks.

 
If there is another major terrorist attack on American soil, you can rest assured that the immediate response of U.S. officials will be: It has nothing to do with the U.S. government's unconditional U.S. taxpayer-provided support of the Israeli government, or with the brutal sanctions that contributed to the deaths of hundreds of thousands of Iraqi children, or with the callous position that such deaths were worth it, or with the invasion and occupation of Iraq, which have killed and maimed tens of thousands of Iraqi people. They'll say instead that it's all about anger and hatred for America's "freedom and values." And the sad part is that there will still be Americans who fall for it.

What would be wrong with terminating foreign aid not only to Israel but also to every other country in the world and abolishing the taxes that support such aid, leaving the American people free to keep their own money and decide what to do with it?

What would be wrong with letting Americans support Israel or Lebanon or the Palestinians or any other cause in the world with their moral support and their own money and leaving the U.S. government and U.S. taxpayer money out of it?

What would be wrong with ending the U.S. government's role as world policeman, intervenor, meddler, and interloper, not only in the Middle East but also in the rest of the world?

With the situation in the Middle East degenerating into ever-increasing violence, conflict, death, suffering, and destruction after decades of U.S. intervention, what better time for the American people to reevaluate U.S. foreign policy, not only in the Middle East but also in the rest of the world?

Jacob Hornberger is founder and president of The Future of Freedom Foundation. He can be reached at mailto:[email protected] - [email protected]

Bismillah

Assalamu'alaikum Brother Israfil,

Unfortunately the world is not as perfect as we want it to be. Sometimes I wonder too, at the insanity of the officials and government representatives gathering to discuss the war to the attention of the world media and not come up with any way to stop it. Like many other of my brethren, I never expect some organization to come to the rescue of Muslim people. We must begin helping ourselves and pray for Allah's support.

Our shortcomings may be mostly to our fault, but lets also consider others' thirst for world dominance and control over natural resources that disturbs our peace.    

I could try to understand why someone is willing to detonate the bomb and tear himslef apart together with the surrounding innocents, this however does not mean that I support such an act and advocate its permissability. If i did, I would no longer be communicating with you... Therefore try not to be too quick in making assumptions.

Your main question was related to America and the reason why it was disliked. We were not discussing solutions. I gave a lengthy introduction and briefly answered your question though I must add that I was referring more to the Administration and not the people of your beautiful continent.

You ignore some interesting articles that answer your question in details and turn the subject in a different direction. In fact, I recommended a whole book that would help you find answers, but you seem to have missed it. Not all of us are fluent in English, and not many can express ther thoughts in the way they wanted to. Hence, reading some of the articles they share with us, helps. I think my participation on your question was sufficient and complete, I will leave it to others' contribution.

wassalaam.

Brother if were so kindly referr to my inquiry I never implied an article nor did I discourage it either but more importanly I'd like for people to post their opinion. I offered solutions as in the context in offering my opinion on this manner, this is natural for any discussion which parties disagree.

Bismillah,

Don't you know my personal opinion then?  I agree with Brother Mockba, drawing your attention to these paragraphs especially:

Brother Mockba said:  You are better aware of how 400 years of slavery has effected you personally and how such effect can be compared to a person's who has lost his family in a rocket attack today. I am not sure if it is appropriate for you to draw such comparisons. Do you feel the pain of your 4th generation forefathers' tortures the same way a child is feeling hers after losing her limbs in an a rocket attack today? You may attribute this to my "passionate plea (in the sense of the word") but i find it not very right for the person who had just had a wholesome meal in the comfort of peace at his house to call those starving in pain and in the midst of war for patience. To advise "brethren on the other side of the world" to exercise patience, you have to be on that side of the world and feel it...

It is forbidden to kill oneself intentionally in Islam, regardless of whether it kills or endangers others. I hope we agree on this. Now going back to the main question you posed, have you ever noticed how many innocents has your army killed, raped and humiliated in various parts of the world just over the last few years...? Perhaps if you took a closer look you would't be looking for answers and personal opinions anymore.

Salaamu Alaykum

Bismillah,

Also, I know non-Muslim Americans whose families have been here for a few hundred years, who hate America and are ashamed to be American.  Some people are morally devasted by the actions of our evil military and goverment.  They are dazed and powerless, overwhelmed by depression seeing no solution, and having no say.  They feel their votes don't count.  Where is the anti-war, anti-aggression, anti-world domination candidate?

Also, I disagree with people who think that entitlements for underprivilged blacks and Indians are wrong.  What about poor white folks?  Well, I believe that we should stop sending money for war and bloodshed and other people's destruction and have free health care, education and childcare instead. 

People hate America for its evil actions, no matter what race or nationality they are.  America abandoned me and my brothers and sisters and you won't see me rooting for teams of any sort either.  I root for the people that Allah, SWT, loves most to win in this life and the next.  He knows who they are, so I leave that up to Him.

It's such a pretty, quiet, peaceful day where I live.  The weather is fine.  The air conditioning is working.  I feel ashamed and sad and think always about the people in Lebanon, Gaza, Afgahnistan, Iraq, and elsewhere, who we are bombing out of their happy homes right now.

Salaamu Alaykum

herjihad wrote: Bismillah, Also, I know non-Muslim Americans whose families have been here for a few hundred years, who hate America and are ashamed to be American.  Some people are morally devasted by the actions of our evil military and goverment.  They are dazed and powerless, overwhelmed by depression seeing no solution, and having no say.  They feel their votes don't count.  Where is the anti-war, anti-aggression, anti-world domination candidate? Also, I disagree with people who think that entitlements for underprivilged blacks and Indians are wrong.  What about poor white folks?  Well, I believe that we should stop sending money for war and bloodshed and other people's destruction and have free health care, education and childcare instead.  People hate America for its evil actions, no matter what race or nationality they are.  America abandoned me and my brothers and sisters and you won't see me rooting for teams of any sort either.  I root for the people that Allah, SWT, loves most to win in this life and the next.  He knows who they are, so I leave that up to Him. It's such a pretty, quiet, peaceful day where I live.  The weather is fine.  The air conditioning is working.  I feel ashamed and sad and think always about the people in Lebanon, Gaza, Afgahnistan, Iraq, and elsewhere, who we are bombing out of their happy homes right now. Salaamu Alaykum

Assalaamu alaikum sister:

Jazakallah khayran for your beautiful talent of stating the facts for what they are. I agree with you. I too, have many non-muslim friends that feel that way and are disempowered by the corruption of the system. You "hit the nail right on the head" Shukran for your sensitivity...no one could have said it better!

Wasalaam,

Maryah

Even the Islamic empire as it was evolving had a dark history.

Yaar, yes, it did, but that history doesn�t effect us in the same way as Americanitis is doing to a whole range of people across the globe.

It proves that no country is without fault and no people is without blame but the fact that many of you continuously and blindly post things against the United States without criticizing the other side shows how truly bias we can become.

I hope you would agree that people always tend to blame the Bully-in-Chief and specially if the B-in-C lays dubious claims to being the bestest thing in the universe.

Again I am Muslim but I cannot support a Muslim who kills himself for a cause or commits a criminal act for a cause.

But, it�s okay for a country to commit crimes against humanity?

How do you suggest people should resist occupations? Specially, when they are oppressed by and forced to face the might of the most effective military in our world?

I know many Muslims here on this site that has indicated to me that they do and though I wont say no names here I find such a belief truly sad. I have been told that a Muslim who does bad should not be excommunicated but should be disciplined by other Muslims.

Brother, then what do you suggest?

That all Muslims across the world should file up and accept US bullying? And occupations?

My friend, occupations through out human history have had certain consequences. You occupy, you face the consequences.

USA believe that the one unalienable law that all humans are entitled to is life.

You mean also �the children of a lesser God� like the Iraqis, Palestinians and the Lebanese are entitled to Life?

But I feel that those of you from Turkey, Pakistan etc do not give me that same respect.

Yaar Israfil, not only we give you all the respect, but also really love you.

Thank goodness, you are not here, otherwise I would have given you a big big hug for such beautiful innocence.

Many of you who may work or don't watch the news religiously and read the paper (especially knowing that all media outlets are biased) write post on the tragedies of Muslims and how people are dying and how arrogant and ignorant America is but you never post anything from the other side.

Brother, give me a clue and I promise I will post as much as you wish from the other side the moment we have a minute away from the death and destruction the US is showering on us on hourly basis � not even on a daily basis.

I know, it�s all so sad, but I promise you � not our fault � we are not as apt on manufacturing news as is the State department � we tell you the straight truth.

Please don�t take it personally. You are as helpless as the rest of us.

But if a Muslim suicide bomber gets on a bus, looks around and sees elder, young alike who had nothing to do with his torment or his people blow it up we call it a reaction to oppression.

Are you trying to tell us that people do it because they couldn�t get tickets for the forthcoming super bowl?

WE ALL ARE MORALLY ACCOUNTABLE especially if we kill innocence and especially if we kill people who had nothing to do with our torment. There is nothing in Shariah that states even in military battles to kill both the enemey and those who live amongst the enemy. If so, prove this to me now. But what is this moral absence? Many of you with your straw-man arguments tell me that "What can they do?" they fight with tanks and advance weaponry? Those of you who think this way believe that there is some sort of justification of suicide bombing. There is none.

Please read Professor Robert Pape�s latest book.

I love innocence, but brother, too much innocence is known by some other name, which I will refrain from using out of �respect� for you.

There is no excuse for the mass murdering of any people Israeli, American, Arab or Muslim.

Have you told that your Rep in the Congress?

Nobody! I would hope even in the anger of those who hate my country would see both sides and condemn wrong doing on both sides. Sorry brother Suleyman although you are my brother I don't mean to single you out but posting things about my country yet ignoring the issues of your own surprises me. Friends of mine who are Armenian attest to their parents parents on how they were slaughtered by the Turks not so long ago.

So, brother Suleyman should now close his eyes to the on-going torture and start wailing for what unfortunately happened in Armenia in the century before last?

Whisper who claims to be Afghanistanian,

Brother, I have never claimed to be Afghanistanian.

It�s just that I happen to be an Afghan.

what about the countless woman who, without even a trial get taken into a soccer field only to be executed not with dignity but with two in the head from a high powered rifle.

Did you ever watch the �Babies in the Incubators� just around Gulf War One?

It was a documentary on video. What did it turn out to be? Were you a witness to any executions � without trial.

Even if there were any such executions, why is it that a majority of Afghans clamour for living under the Sharea Law?

What right you or your government holds of telling us how we should lead our lives?

Other than a horde of bigger guns?

There is no moral accountable absence! I just get so upset when post after post I see "America lies" or "Israeli murderers" yet nobody post anything about what we do wrong as if we dont do anything wrong.

I wonder if you may have noticed, but it�s a basic law of life � bigger things get noticed. US makes news. US is big. It has much bigger responsibility than you, I or Pakistan to behave and set an example in deed.

Then, if we do something wrong its only a reaction to being oppressed.

Have you seen (forget about ever facing) US oppression and bullying around the globe?

You are advising people to turn into some saints?

And, just forget about being killed left, right and centre and behave like boy Scouts only because it suits you and your bully country.

Let me attribute what you are saying here just to your innocence.

I told you too much of innocence is called something else.

But I do feel like being nice to you, today.

So the question I have to ask after my rant is why do you dislike America?

No. I pity the poor idiotic America.

It could have won the whole world with her affable character and a smile, with her spirit of venture. But instead, she was pushed by her greedy weapons manufacturers to pose threats and poise for threats, become belligerent and play wars. She set out to be the street bully of the world with an unbeatable record of death and destruction.

The position your country stands in today is not worth anyone�s hatred or dislike. It deserves everyone�s pity. I pity her and also her poor powerless people.

Brother, you seem to be going onnnn about morality in your post.

Won't it be a good idea to start spinning morality at home and start exporting when you get enough to spare some for the overseas markets?

As hard for anyone here to see there is somewhat a comparison. If we are talking about the direct impact then no there is no comparison to one whose forefathers had sufferd but if we are talking about systematic suffering then yes seeds of generations can indeed feel the injuries of slavery we see this today with the poverty stricken blacks in Los Angeles as well as the southern states. Of course I cannot compare the direct impact of suffering as a little child who is maimed by a rocket attack but I certainly understand one who may loathe a country because they feel that such a country (in this case the United States) is responsible for that suffering. However regardless of what I feel for a country it does not give me the desire to want to blow myself up-not only because the attack would be disproportionally wrong, but because it is immoral and unislamic as some of you have noted already.

This is not a question of whether I truly understand. Because realistically I don't. And neither do any of you. If any of you are personally effected I cannot see how since, neither one of you are directly getting bomb. However I'm not downplaying the effect another person suffering has on anyone of us but if this is a question of whether we truly undertand I can say that we all truly don't. Basically from what I get here is that the primary reason why many people overseas hate America is basically for historical and political reasons. Politically its obvious that America's foreign policy is biased and to those on the other end of the stick unfair. Historically because America has indeed washed its hands in a lot of blood.

Many of you may indeed think its funny that I continuously mention morality but that is the failing issue we as a community struggle with. I know that America has done wrong you don't need to constantly remind me that even I have said it here. However I look at both sides of the coin. America is damned either way and honestly even if America changed its policies it doesn't change the Middle East. This is another case of "the devil made me do it" because even if America left people will blame civil strife on the American influence upon the people while they were occupied. Regardless America is damned either way. Personally I prefer the isolanist idea. Frankly we have domestic terrorism which I have personally committed myself to fight.

Right now since we have had the terrorist who were captured my department has beefed up security at our local airport LAX (Los Angeles International Airport). Let me also mention when I say I support America I support its ideals not the particulars such as politicians, president etc. I love our Decleration of Independence our articles, amendements. I love the brilliance of how this was set up. This is perhaps the only country on this planet that was formed out of shame, arrogance, racism bloodshed and the like. But out of  all this this indeed a country where people can truly make a difference.

Let us not forget that we are a nation of laws and as I mention we are a nation (at least ideally) of moral accountability. There are truly people on this planet who feel empathetic that an individual has the right to commit mass suicide through terror because he/she is being occupied. Of course me speaking against it people are always saying "I don't understand." What is inconceivable is how one can take his/her life just because their suffering is so great and their pain is not bearable the same people who profess to believe that "God gives us no burden too great for us to bear."

I believe the solution here is to not focus on our hatred but rather commit ourselves to Jihad and I truly believe in the Jedi creed of patience and truth because such qualities are so rae and relevant to today.

Jazakallah khayran for your beautiful talent of stating the facts for what they are. I agree with you. I too, have many non-muslim friends that feel that way and are disempowered by the corruption of the system. You "hit the nail right on the head" Shukran for your sensitivity...no one could have said it better!

I have no idea why she doesn't just start writing full time instead of doing what she is doing. Just the truth, economy and the essence of her flow!

Must go and make a cup of tea, now.

Israfil wrote: As hard for anyone here to see there is somewhat a comparison. If we are talking about the direct impact then no there is no comparison to one whose forefathers had sufferd but if we are talking about systematic suffering then yes seeds of generations can indeed feel the injuries of slavery we see this today with the poverty stricken blacks in Los Angeles as well as the southern states. Of course I cannot compare the direct impact of suffering as a little child who is maimed by a rocket attack but I certainly understand one who may loathe a country because they feel that such a country (in this case the United States) is responsible for that suffering. However regardless of what I feel for a country it does not give me the desire to want to blow myself up-not only because the attack would be disproportionally wrong, but because it is immoral and unislamic as some of you have noted already. This is not a question of whether I truly understand. Because realistically I don't. And neither do any of you. If any of you are personally effected I cannot see how since, neither one of you are directly getting bomb. However I'm not downplaying the effect another person suffering has on anyone of us but if this is a question of whether we truly undertand I can say that we all truly don't. Basically from what I get here is that the primary reason why many people overseas hate America is basically for historical and political reasons. Politically its obvious that America's foreign policy is biased and to those on the other end of the stick unfair. Historically because America has indeed washed its hands in a lot of blood. Many of you may indeed think its funny that I continuously mention morality but that is the failing issue we as a community struggle with. I know that America has done wrong you don't need to constantly remind me that even I have said it here. However I look at both sides of the coin. America is damned either way and honestly even if America changed its policies it doesn't change the Middle East. This is another case of "the devil made me do it" because even if America left people will blame civil strife on the American influence upon the people while they were occupied. Regardless America is damned either way. Personally I prefer the isolanist idea. Frankly we have domestic terrorism which I have personally committed myself to fight. Right now since we have had the terrorist who were captured my department has beefed up security at our local airport LAX (Los Angeles International Airport). Let me also mention when I say I support America I support its ideals not the particulars such as politicians, president etc. I love our Decleration of Independence our articles, amendements. I love the brilliance of how this was set up. This is perhaps the only country on this planet that was formed out of shame, arrogance, racism bloodshed and the like. But out of  all this this indeed a country where people can truly make a difference. Let us not forget that we are a nation of laws and as I mention we are a nation (at least ideally) of moral accountability. There are truly people on this planet who feel empathetic that an individual has the right to commit mass suicide through terror because he/she is being occupied. Of course me speaking against it people are always saying "I don't understand." What is inconceivable is how one can take his/her life just because their suffering is so great and their pain is not bearable the same people who profess to believe that "God gives us no burden too great for us to bear." I believe the solution here is to not focus on our hatred but rather commit ourselves to Jihad and I truly believe in the Jedi creed of patience and truth because such qualities are so rae and relevant to today.

Brother Israfil,

I used to feel this way about America.  But there are some anomalies to think about.  When this wonderful document was created, humans were kidnapped from their homes and brought to be slaves in America, the land of the free and the home of the brave.  Even after they arrived, they had rights, their children had rights.  And the greedy, evil slaveowners passed new American, anti-human laws which said that their children would also be slaves, thus creating an easy, cheap labor source, an underclass of subhumans, in their point of view, for all time.

The Declaration of Independence and the Constitution did not free these people.  They freed themselves with the help of anti-slavery souls, Allah bless them all. Harriet Tubman should be on the dollar bill instead of that other guy. 

Have you read the history that is taught to our kids?  We can see some of the truths on PBS and in the libraries and bookstores, but they are still teaching lies about slavery and the souless people, our revered forefathers, who not only allowed it, but encouraged it for their own economic gain.

Look up eminent domain and what the supreme court has done to our limited rights as American property owners.  How free are Americans really?

Salaamu Alaykum

herjihad said:

"I used to feel this way about America.  But there are some anomalies to think about.  When this wonderful document was created, humans were kidnapped from their homes and brought to be slaves in America, the land of the free and the home of the brave.  Even after they arrived, they had rights, their children had rights.  And the greedy, evil slaveowners passed new American, anti-human laws which said that their children would also be slaves, thus creating an easy, cheap labor source, an underclass of subhumans, in their point of view, for all time.

The Declaration of Independence and the Constitution did not free these people.  They freed themselves with the help of anti-slavery souls, Allah bless them all. Harriet Tubman should be on the dollar bill instead of that other guy. 

Have you read the history that is taught to our kids?  We can see some of the truths on PBS and in the libraries and bookstores, but they are still teaching lies about slavery and the souless people, our revered forefathers, who not only allowed it, but encouraged it for their own economic gain."

I can't believe you are spreading such inaccuracies.  The slaves who first came here were sold to slave traders by AFRICAN AND ARAB slave traders.  They SOLD their own people for the money. In America we fought the Civil War, brother fighting against brother to free the slaves.  More men were lost during the American Civil War than in any other war in history.  That is  how determined and committed we were to freeing the slaves.  President Lincoln most certainly does deserve to be on the $5.00 bill.  Slavery STILL PERSISTS in many parts of Africa, Asia, and South America....but NOT in the US. 

Slavery was/is never right.  It is a horrible sin, and we have taken great strides to free this country from it.  Yes, there are many poor blacks living in ghettos, I've been there and worked with them.  I was also raised in poverty in Appalachia....white children know poverty too, herjihad, it's just not as publicized as it is for black people.  I think it would be a good idea to go back and read a few history books.  As for me, although I am a white Irish-American lady, I have many black friends.  Many of my girlfriends married black men, and live very good lives.  There are MANY Muslims near where I live....we all live together peacefully.  We have no problems...that's one reason this site bothers me.  I look for the good and positive, but everyone else tries to spread only the bad and pessimism. 

Just this morning at mass, we had a visiting priest from Haiti who runs an orphanage for 420 children (orphans).  He is a white priest, and has devoted his life to giving this poor children a home.  They call him Papa.  He said he is not trying to raise "little Catholics"....they are free to choose whatever religion they like because "we all worship the same God."  I thank God for saints on earth like Father Marc.  If more people spent time trying to actually DO something positive rather than spreading lies and stories of bigotry, we could see very good changes in the world....but to continue to spead false tales, to have a depressed, pessimistic attitude does absolutely no good for anyone. 

God's Peace!

Yaar, Israfil, I love you.

You are the only one who can make us laugh in such death and destruction days with your such mild humour.

America is damned either way and honestly even if America changed its policies it doesn't change the Middle East.

Be honest, cross your heart, you really mean that?

I love our Declaration of Independence our articles, amendments. I love the brilliance of how this was set up.

We all do. It does read like a good story. Today, it�s just a story like all others that lie buried somewhere in our libraries. Great!

Shall we now have your permission to talk about some ground facts about the US?

Rice's comment on the conflict as part of the "birth pangs" of a new Middle East was particularly "crude, insensitive and cruel," said Rami G. Khouri, an analyst and columnist for Beirut's Daily Star newspaper.

"She was basically seen as saying you have to kill Arabs to remake them and you have to allow Israel to destroy Arab movements to make better nations.

"If it is a new Mideast, it won't be the one she is expecting," Khouri said, particularly coming after deeply troubled U.S.-led efforts to transform Iraq, the Palestinian territories and Afghanistan.

After the July 30 Israeli airstrike on Qana that killed at least 28 civilians, a large banner went up in downtown Beirut depicting Rice with sharp fangs and blood flowing from her mouth. "The massacre of children in Qana is a gift from Rice," it said.

Almost 90 percent of Lebanese said that the United States is not an honest broker, according to a July 29 survey by the Beirut Center for Research and Information, compared with 38 percent who supported a U.S. role in a January survey.

Let us not forget that we are a nation of laws and as I mention we are a nation (at least ideally) of moral accountability.

Brother, we often try to remember that, but have not been able to see when was it last that the US followed some laws?

I hope you could put us on the right path about finding that occasion or shall we need to contact some archaeologists for that? By any chance do you have Indiana Jones address handy? He may be able to find that day for us, somehow, from somewhere.

There are truly people on this planet who feel empathetic that an individual has the right to commit mass suicide through terror because he / she is being occupied.

If you tried being occupied for even a short while, you might be able to start understanding what it�s like to be occupied. An �occupied� taxi is a good thing, it rings in a few dollars, but these occupied people can be a real pain in the . . . .

If you fancy experimenting with it, I could (privately) mail you addresses of a few private Afghan prisons, though that won�t be as much fun as being occupied by the largest single uncouth, MacCultured army of our world.

I can't believe you are spreading such inaccuracies. 

Neither can I believe it.

But only for the simple reason that she is not spreading any inaccuracies. I won't be able to find one single instance when she has failed to stand up and tell anything but straight simple truth - and with courage that I would love to acquire.

It's very easy to just come up with I can't believe you are spreading such inaccuracies, but it would be interesting to see how you back your claims up with solid historical references?

I won't hold my breath, but it would be interesting to see how you prove to us that the US were something handcrafted by God in person.

Whisper wrote: I can't believe you are spreading such inaccuracies.  Neither can I believe it. But only for the simple reason that she is not spreading any inaccuracies. I won't be able to find one single instance when she has failed to stand up and tell anything but straight simple truth - and with courage that I would love to acquire. It's very easy to just come up with I can't believe you are spreading such inaccuracies, but it would be interesting to see how you back your claims up with solid historical references? I won't hold my breath, but it would be interesting to see how you prove to us that the US were something handcrafted by God in person.

Bismillah,

Dear Sasha and Hanan,

Thanks so much for responding for me.  I appreciate your support and understanding a lot.

Salaamu Alaykum

Whisper said,

"Brother, we often try to remember that, but have not been able to see when was it last that the US followed some laws?"

What about when the government executed that white, American, Catholic, Timothy McVeigh for bombing the Oklahoma Federal Building and murdering many innocent men, women, and children?  Just a thought.  There are many others, but for me, a non-muslim, to post them here would be considered too "aggressive".

herjihad,

"My response:  First of all, do you understand that people might view someone who writes this way as aggressive?"

Why is it that anytime I express an opposing view, I am "aggressive", but everyone else who is Muslim is quite welcome to express their opinions?  This doesn't seem fair to me.

"Secondly, you are not correct.  No one in Africa sold their own people.  (If they did, I have never read about it!  Do you have a reference?)"

Yes, I do have a reference to provide:

Millennium issue: Slavery

Guilty parties

Dec 23rd 1999
From The Economist print edition

IN HIS memoirs, published in England in 1789, Olaudah Equiano told how, as a child in what is now Nigeria, he was stolen into slavery:

One day, when all our people were gone out to their works as usual, and only I and my dear sister were left to mind the house, two men and a woman got over our walls, seized us and, without giving us time to cry out, stopped our mouths, and ran off with us into the wood. Here they tied our hands and continued to carry us as far as they could. < = =text/>

Sasha,

"I won't hold my breath, but it would be interesting to see how you prove to us that the US were something handcrafted by God in person."

Humm, I was raised to believe that God/Allah handcrafted everyone and everything.....even Americans.

Herjihad,

Here is another reference to the American Civil War.  Only America and Haiti fought a war to free the slaves.

THE CIVIL WAR (1861-1865)

Only America and Haiti fought a war to free the slaves.

Yes and half fought to keep it...

other countries did not have to fight because they either did not have it or outlawed it long ago.

It is quite common knowledge that initially the war was NOT to free the slaves.  That is very much common assumption. Not sure why you are arguing the point? The war began to stop the south from forming their own country.

Bismillah,

Patty, I should have known that you would just twist my words.  You insulted the people of this site by saying that it "bothered you".  So I invited you to go elsewhere since no one is binding you here.  I don't want to spend my time arguing with you.  It seems you enjoy that, and since your Catholic sites have more of it, I invite you to spend more time there.  Your insults of Sasha, me, Hanan, and anyone else who disagrees with you are constant and unjustified.  You start things and then point the finger.  Just stop it.

Your slave story that you posted only proves what I said.  The kids were stolen by members of other tribes, not their own tribe.  America and England and all of the other countries who got rich off of the slave trade are responsible, not some tribesman who had no idea what would happen to his world by dealing with the heathen slave trading ships.  Shoving the responsibility on to them and off of us is really irresponsible, but par for the course for you.

If I were a moderator, I would have banned you long ago for the way you insult the Muslims and friends of Muslims here.  What?  Muslims wanting a corner of the internet where they are not ridiculed for their faith and desire to live peacefully and garner support for issues we care about seems like to much for you?

I agree with you on one thing:  It's hard to lose a loved one.

Salaamu Alaykum

Herjihad, I have absolutely no idea what has happened to you.  If you recall, you were the one who began to PM me, and then to email me.  I'm not saying this to embarrass you...I am quite simply stunned.  I honestly thought you were a friend. 

There is not one person on this site whom I do not find something to genuinely like.  Where you are getting the idea I don't like these people all of a sudden is beyond me.  I wish I knew.  I have been on this site for five years.  I tried to offer assistance to you via email, if you recall....only to be nice.  This really shocks me, your reaction.  I hope someday I will have the answer to what has changed you.  I do remember we have a "mutual friend" with whom I am very close.  Perhaps she can shed some light on this....I hope so.  I've never been so confused.  And, yes, it is hard to lose someone....and then to have a friend turn on you at the same time.

God's Peace.

Herjihad,

We've been good friends for a while now, but I think you've crossed the line.

First off, though the Civil War was fought to preserve the Union, the Slavery Issue was the factor that lead to the conflict. 

Secondly,  Patty was pointing out that Blacks sold Blacks to the slavers.  Be they from different tribes or not, truth be told, slavery is not just a white mans issue.  Yes, the English, Spanish and Portugese were guilty of importing slaves to the New World.  Yes, the Southern Plantations were addicted to the cheap labor as we are addicted to foreign oil today.  But Slavery is not just the sin of Americans.  Look at the Serfs of Eastern Europe.  Those slaves were freed in Russia in 1860. 

The current administration has made huge errors and struck deadly blows to the ideals that founded this country.  America (despite what MOCKBA said earlier) was founded on altruistic ideals.  Freedom of Speech, Religion and the Representation of the People. 

Our government only works with the will of the People.  The great manipulations in the Media can drive that in directions wanted by the men in power, but it can also drive it back in the other direction.  It takes only a few to start change.  We will come out of this dark time, just as we came out of them in the past. 

However, the US herself is not totally to blame for everything.  Why are not more fingers pointed at the European Powers that carved up Africa, Asia and the Middle East into its artificial state?  England was largely responsible for Palestine prior to WWII.  Why are they not blamed for the problems there and it solely rest with the United States?

Why not place some blame with the Turks?  Was it not the Ottoman's who sided with the Kaiser?  This surely helped create this awful situation.

Everyone likes to point fingers.  And everyone likes excuses.  The US right now is a convenient excuse to blame violence that has been raging for centuries. 

The US invaded Afghanistan because they refused to hand over the men that planned the deaths of 3,000 people.  If you noticed, they barely batted an eye in that direction after the collapse of the Soviet Union. 

Iraq was Dubya's reclaiming the family honor since Daddy dearest didn't oust Saddam in 1991.

The UN is to blame for the Oil for Food program gone wrong, and Daddy Bush is to blame for the Oil for Food Program even being needed. 

The US needs to return to the Isolationism it practiced until World War I.  The world certainly doesn't need our interference, however, to a certain extent, that would mean that outside forces would have to put a leash on certain groups. 

If the US pulls out of Iraq, Afghanistan and other areas, then there cannot be anymore 9/11s or 7/7s. 

Israel is losing ground politically.  I really don't know what to say about Israel.  How do you decide the fate of those who were born there?  Its easy to say send them all back to Germany.  But only 32% of Israelis were born abroad.  What of the 68% that know no other place?  Its easy to say give the land back to Palestine.  Would it be preferrable to create a Yugoslavian styled state where groups that are bent on revenge are forced to live together under a central government?  We know what happened there?

I heard a German man today say that the path to Peace requires the destruction of the Jews.  It made my stomach sick and chills go up my spine.  I was stunned.  The momentary elation I had that the men in my office were supporting Lebanon and the Palestinians was cut short by such a statement. 

So, why is the US so hated?  Recent history mixed with centuries of hatreds. 

Do you know who's really to blame for all of this????  Alexander the Great.  So there.

Bismillah,

Crossed the Line?  This is how I feel and how I've felt for years.  You didn't know? I crossed a line that you drew somewhere?  Excuse me.   Why are you saying such a statement on a public forum?  Patty was attacking me personally and my statements and twisting what me and my fellow Muslim friends say.  And you are agreeing with that?  I guess that's your choice.

I am going to continue to be Muslim; this was never in doubt.  I will continue to support oppressed people, wherever they are from.  I have and will say things as I see them, although I will continue to try very hard to be polite, in spite of this statement of yours.

Do you think that I can concentrate on anything else you've written after your "cross the line" statement???

Salaamu Alaykum

Spacebo.

Herjihad,

We've been good friends for a while now, but I think you've crossed the line.

Me ___________________________________________ You

Hmm.

Salaamu Alaykum

"Patty was attacking me personally"

Herjihad, please show me where I have ever done this.  I expressed my opinion, which differed from your's.  That is all I did.  I thought that was what debate and mature dialogue was about.

God's Peace. 

Patty wrote: Herjihad, I have absolutely no idea what has happened to you.  If you recall, you were the one who began to PM me, and then to email me.  I'm not saying this to embarrass you...I am quite simply stunned.  I honestly thought you were a friend.  There is not one person on this site whom I do not find something to genuinely like.  Where you are getting the idea I don't like these people all of a sudden is beyond me.  I wish I knew.  I have been on this site for five years.  I tried to offer assistance to you via email, if you recall....only to be nice.  This really shocks me, your reaction.  I hope someday I will have the answer to what has changed you.  I do remember we have a "mutual friend" with whom I am very close.  Perhaps she can shed some light on this....I hope so.  I've never been so confused.  And, yes, it is hard to lose someone....and then to have a friend turn on you at the same time. God's Peace.

Patty,

Please stop talking to me.  If you noticed, I haven't emailed you for quite a while.  I don't want to talk to you.  We have nothing in common.

Your posts are filled with sarcastic, mean spriited cutting statements.  Friend?  Your post about me was aggressive and insulting. 

And in your way you are threatening to go around talking to my friends about me.  Why don't you stop doing that?  I don't want you to talk about me.  So do you know what the definition of gossip is?  Do you know how to censor yourself before you make a post?

Write a post.  Read it.  See if it's blatantly, uneccesarily offensive.  Dont post it if you care about the person you're posting about. 

Please don't answer me.  Just leave me alone and don't answer any posts that I make, even the ones you agree with.  You have your friends and your Catholic sites.  Enjoy them.  We were never friends.  That's called acquaintences, just so you know for the future.  Friendship is mutual.  You never offered me "help"  and I don't need or want any help from you and certainly never asked for such a thing.

Salaamu Alaykum

Patty wasn't attacking you personally.  I went back and read the posts.  She was responding to your statements.  She didn't twist your words.  I read your posts and her responses.  She was responding directly to your accusations. 

Good Grief....

Herjihad wrote: Secondly, you are not correct.  No one in Africa sold their own people.  (If they did, I have never read about it!  Do you have a reference?) Warring tribes, as with warring Indian tribes in America, used to keep their captives as slaves.  That they sold their own slaves was not selling their own people.

You asked for a reference, she gave you one.  Own people was referring to race, not tribe.

Herjihad wrote: Do you purposely twist things people say?  I said the $1 dollar bill -- Washington the slave owner.

I don't think she twisted, perhaps misunderstood.  I would still disagree with you.  Washington's purpose was to sever the colonies from England.  His place on our $ is for a completely different purpose.  However, I think Tubman, Douglas or Booker T Washington would be better on the $20 or $50 than the two Presidents on them.  Jackson was one of the worst presidents ever. 

Herjihad wrote: America encourages slavery all over the world.  And I personally helped free a slave, so I know that it exists.

Please justify this statement with an example.  I know there have been many calls over the years by Administrations to work against the human trade.  So, please, provide your source.

Patty & Herjihad wrote: Yes, there are many poor blacks living in ghettos, I've been there and worked with them.  I was also raised in poverty in Appalachia....white children know poverty too, herjihad, it's just not as publicized as it is for black people.  So you wear your previous poverty as a badge of honor?  What should I do with mine and my children's?  Deny it?

You described the "N" word as proof positive of the evils still lingering in the US.  Poverty leads to a lack of education, but not an excuse.  There is a huge divide in this country and its not just along racial borders.  Poor are poor and rich are rich.  Patty has lived long enough to work herself out of it.  That doesn't mean she can not remember what its like.  Badge of honor might be pushing it, but if she is proud of her humble beginnings, that's her right.  Don't deny the situation your in, identify the reasons your in that situation and make the necessary changes.  Why do you think I'm going back to school? 

I've been homeless (living on the charity of family and friends) with an injured husband.  I know poverty.  I may not live on Ramen and Hotdogs anymore, but I sure remember going to bed hungry.  So am I not allowed to say I sympathize too????

You attacked first.  Patty responsed to your challenges and you called her aggressive.  Honey, my family has been here since 1662, I might hate the administration and its policies, but I love this country.  I love what she was founded on and I love her trials and evolutions. 

No country is perfect.  I challenge you to find a place where your family would be safer.  If you can find one, then so be it...

But, I'd rather work on the flaws and enjoy the things this country got right.  At least I'm not one of those poor oppressed tribal women that MOCKBA doesn't think deserves help.

 

 

 

Assalaamu alaikum sister Herji and peace to you Patty and Angela..

Okay, everyone to their corners, you need to put on your gloves ladies:

What is going on here, I see three ladies who are usually good friends and stick up for each other fighting over, HISTORY?

Being a person who's emphasis in secondary education was history, I have come to the following conclusion:

History, as it is written, is always subject to the biases and interpretations of the author who wrote the account:

Everybody has their own opinions injected into the accounts.

So. let's shake hands, put this behind us and make up,

Inshallah we will get past this, are we hormonal females or what?

Believe me, I know, I have been a brat myself....

I can seriously say I hate the fact that it has turned into a discussion in part, about slavery and its history along with other things that doesn't address the question. Although some of what was said, does tie into the question I don't want bickering on such an important issue, but, its understanable that emotions on this discussion can create that. First off, let me address something here. As someone who has studied Black History I would hope some of the "non-whites" in here presume to be a scholar at Black History just because he/she can google search Black History off websites. I'm not accusing anyone of doing that, but I'm saying that its easy to get such information off other websites.

As an African-American and learning from what my grandfathers father had did to survive I can honestly say that the decisions made has definitely sowed the future of some. Racism in the 1400's which lead to the enslavement of Africans in fact still has effects today. It's not justifying ignorance, nor laziness nor the lack of wanting to work but it still does have its effect today much like the effects of the cosmic "Big Bang" has on the cooled universe. My earlier point in interconnecting this with those who have hatred for America was to relate that even though this is evident in our history this does not create a desire of hatred of all whites nor does this make me want to strap a bomb to myself to kill a group of whites for what has happened to my ancestors in the past. Some of you may think this is not comparable to a modern problem. I say it is.

We are all discussing the effects of a past event. The land that was taken from the Palestinians by the people now called Israelis didn't happen recently but approximately 5 decades ago. Also, let me address something Angela said which struck a nerve. She states that everyone is to blame in slavery. Sorry to say, for one who is not African-American you cannot conceiv what my mother and her parents had to go through. We as African Americans were already poor in coming this country then, suffered in slavery. Even when the so-called abolitionist "freed" us we still suffered social injustice. Just because some of you say blacks were freed doesn't mean we had automatic social equality. So before you go into your speech of "we freed the slaves" remember lenching still went on LOL.

Also! Although everyone hands were in the cookie jar of slavery, some whites still propagate what is now considered institutionalized racism. here are still injustices in our American system. If I can say something I truly loathe about America that is truly it. In my personal opinion suffering is suffering and  like I said before we go into the poor Palestinians and Poor Lebanese let's look at the Sudanese African whose husband (BTW was Muslim) was shoot in the head while praying fajr. Or the woman who was gang raped by Arab militia. Or the child in the streets of Los Angeles who was shot in the sternum just playing in the front yard. Suffering happens on every face of the planet and although Angela states imperfectly that the United States was created on "ideals" it still suffered incredibly for its arrogance in that I side the worlds wrath upon the US on.

We as a nation historically was arrogant. We were arrogant towards the native people to the Africans who built this country. Yes we Africans built this country along with others who have suffered along with us. I think more often than noit people hate this country for its past and where it is going!

I hear ya, Israfil.  I'm not gonna comment on the bigotry suffered by my ancestors, the Irish.  It's not talked about much....so be it.  It's over, and nothing good will come from rehashing it.  Injustices have been committed by nearly everyone to nearly everyone.  All of it has/is wrong and a huge sin.  I agree with Angela when she said if anyone can find a less bigoted country, have at it.  I know I can't.  All countries, cultures, races have their share of sins for which they must atone.  ALL OF US.

I must agree with Maryah.  You're right.  We're beginning to look like a gaggle of teenage girls at a MacDonald's.  Time for everyone to take a deep breath and drop this.  I know I'm finished with it....and I'm still not sure what it was about.  Peace Sisters (and brothers too).

God's Peace!

Israfil wrote: patty all in all we all humans truggle its in every corner of the world

You're absolutely right, Israfil!

herjihad wrote: Bismillah, Patty, I should have known that you would just twist my words.  You insulted the people of this site by saying that it "bothered you".

Herjihad, Honestly it seems you have taken this out of proportion and in your temper are twisting words of hers around. The "bothered you" you have completely missed patty' point.

This is the sentence of what was said:  There are MANY Muslims near where I live....we all live together peacefully.  We have no problems...that's one reason this site bothers me. 

In other words, The muslims she interacts at home with are different here on this site and are peaceful and tolerant whereas for this site patty experiences something else - the opposite and that bothered her for which she cannot figure out why the extreme differences.

You think Patty has been insulting perhaps you can check your words again.

If I were a moderator, I would have banned you long ago for the way you insult the Muslims and friends of Muslims here.  What?  Muslims wanting a corner of the internet where they are not ridiculed for their faith and desire to live peacefully and garner support for issues we care about seems like to much for you?

with that attitude, you shouldn't be moderator.

Angel wrote: herjihad wrote: Bismillah, Patty, I should have known that you would just twist my words.  You insulted the people of this site by saying that it "bothered you".  Herjihad, Honestly it seems you have taken this out of proportion and in your temper are twisting words of hers around. The "bothered you" you have completely missed patty' point. This is the sentence of what was said:  There are MANY Muslims near where I live....we all live together peacefully.  We have no problems...that's one reason this site bothers me.  In other words, The muslims she interacts at home with are different here on this site and are peaceful and tolerant whereas for this site patty experiences something else - the opposite and that bothered her for which she cannot figure out why the extreme differences. You think Patty has been insulting perhaps you can check your words again. If I were a moderator, I would have banned you long ago for the way you insult the Muslims and friends of Muslims here.  What?  Muslims wanting a corner of the internet where they are not ridiculed for their faith and desire to live peacefully and garner support for issues we care about seems like to much for you? with that attitude, you shouldn't be moderator.

Bismillah,

Not interested in moderating this board, chicita.  I have a busy life as mom and a wife.  And power corrupts, so I'm really not going there at all.  AstagfirAllah!

Nuf said. 

Bismillah,

Right now the biggest crisis in the world, Brother Israfil, is that all of the Lebanese population has been attacked by the Israeli army which got its guns and money from our government.  We need to stop the attacks and insist on war reparations now.

The crisis in America of impoverished people continues.  Our lives are important.  We matter.  But most of us are not being attacked with guns every day and thrown out of our homes only to be bombed on the road of our escape.

America needs to reinvent herself.  Our people need help and attention.  Our money should go for healthcare, education and housing instead of bombing countries because they suit the financial interests of the rich and greedy of this world.

Did you hear the story of George Washington and Guyasuta?  It should make you think about things if you study it and think about it.  My people are to blame for your people's suffering. We need to stop sending bombs all over this world and correct the mistakes of our past and take full responsibility for our mistakes, past and present.

Institutionalized racism is the only thing you hate about America?  But that's a big thing.  A lot of people won't acknowledge that it exists.

Salaamu Alaykum

ak_m_f wrote: herjihad wrote: I have a busy life as mom and a wife. mom, wife?! when did that happened?

Bismillah,

Quite a while ago!

Salaamu Alaykum

Wa alaikum Salaam sister Herjihad, before I respond to you let me address Duende please:

Duende you laid out a few paragraphs on why you may dislike America, but let me ask you personally do you have a problem with America? Have you been to America? What was your experience? If you live in America has injustice been done to you?

Herjihad:

Sister I understand what you are saying and I agree that first the Lebanese situation should cease of course. I agree with you there! But sister Herjihad you also would agree that prior to the Lebanese situation there is a recurring problem that Islamicity.com does not always address: Darfur, Sudan. The problem is still ongoing. You think that just because there is a so-called ceasefire that the problems have stopped? Men are killed, the women are raped and the children sold into modern-day slavery. Also sister do you know that the government is using attack helicopters against the people?

I have so much to say against this form of bias media its ridiculous! With no offense to you sister Herjihad nor to any one of Arab descent but I firmly believe (which I find to be true in this case) that Sudan is not getting much covered because its Arab media. Not to mention since the Janjaweed is an Arab militia killing Black African it reflects somewhat not only on the culture but also on the Arab dilemma. I firmly think that Arab problems take prescedence over non-Arab problems-even if they're Muslim. Now I maybe wrong in my generalization now correct me please but I tend to find this true. Al-Jazeera for instance covers mostly problems going on in the Arab world, grant it, it does cover other problems ion the Muslim world but none takes prescedence over things dealing with Arab countries.

My theory from this, is that the psychological effect of more media coverage on Arab problems such as Lebanon etc the more sympathetic and empathetic Muslims are towards the Arab problem rather than the problems going on in the other world. Again I made the example of the strife going on in Africa long before the Palestinian/Israeli situation and nobody here chose to tackle that. We are talking about centuries old problems not just decades old.  Black African Muslims in Sudan in my opinion are perhaps the most underpriveledged and oppressed in the sense of longevity of injustice. However in the sense of measurement of pain and suffering no pain is greater than the next because they all amount to the same end: Suffering.

There is Jedi saying Master Yoda quoted, he said: "Fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, hate leads to suffering."

My theory from this, is that the psychological effect of more media coverage on Arab problems such as Lebanon etc the more sympathetic and empathetic Muslims are towards the Arab problem rather than the problems going on in the other world.

I think that is the way humans are.. we are al lvery concentrated on our own issues and problems.  Plus with the fact that there is rascism, I cannot imagine that people are immune from these effects.

Lots of people also don't know what the answers are. Sudan, Somalia, Afganistan, these areas that have faced long-term conflict and turmoil face an uphll battle. 

Israfil wrote: Wa alaikum Salaam sister Herjihad, before I respond to you let me address Duende please: Duende you laid out a few paragraphs on why you may dislike America, but let me ask you personally do you have a problem with America? Have you been to America? What was your experience? If you live in America has injustice been done to you? Herjihad: Sister I understand what you are saying and I agree that first the Lebanese situation should cease of course. I agree with you there! But sister Herjihad you also would agree that prior to the Lebanese situation there is a recurring problem that Islamicity.com does not always address: Darfur, Sudan. The problem is still ongoing. You think that just because there is a so-called ceasefire that the problems have stopped? Men are killed, the women are raped and the children sold into modern-day slavery. Also sister do you know that the government is using attack helicopters against the people? I have so much to say against this form of bias media its ridiculous! With no offense to you sister Herjihad nor to any one of Arab descent but I firmly believe (which I find to be true in this case) that Sudan is not getting much covered because its Arab media. Not to mention since the Janjaweed is an Arab militia killing Black African it reflects somewhat not only on the culture but also on the Arab dilemma. I firmly think that Arab problems take prescedence over non-Arab problems-even if they're Muslim. Now I maybe wrong in my generalization now correct me please but I tend to find this true. Al-Jazeera for instance covers mostly problems going on in the Arab world, grant it, it does cover other problems ion the Muslim world but none takes prescedence over things dealing with Arab countries. My theory from this, is that the psychological effect of more media coverage on Arab problems such as Lebanon etc the more sympathetic and empathetic Muslims are towards the Arab problem rather than the problems going on in the other world. Again I made the example of the strife going on in Africa long before the Palestinian/Israeli situation and nobody here chose to tackle that. We are talking about centuries old problems not just decades old.  Black African Muslims in Sudan in my opinion are perhaps the most underpriveledged and oppressed in the sense of longevity of injustice. However in the sense of measurement of pain and suffering no pain is greater than the next because they all amount to the same end: Suffering. There is Jedi saying Master Yoda quoted, he said: "Fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, hate leads to suffering."

Brother Israfil,

We must try to know as much as we can about geography and the people of the world and what is going on.  We can only try and we should try harder and more diligently.

For myself, I care very much about all of these things.  Darfur and Sudan would be easier to understand if someone came and posted things about them from their perspectives and the people who live there as well.

Ruwanda remains on my mind as an example of how evil people can be to each other and I would like to know much more about it.  There is a book by a survivor that I would like to read called "Left to Tell"

You quote crime statistics in LA.  You live in California.  Share with us things that come up there.  My husband lived in a little refugee town because the Israelis burned down his mother's village and killed many of the people there.  We are all interested in events going on with our families and friends.  Right now that same refugee camp is under siege, not last week, but today.  I read about it in Daniel's link.  There are little old women and men and children and young workers that I know and care about that are being attacked there right now.

I can't speak for others about their interest in LA or Darfur or Ruwanda, but I will learn as much as I can and take action in what I am humanly able.  What can we do to help in Sudan, Somalia, Ethiopia right now?  Post things about it Brother.

Yoda -- cool little dude.

Salaamu Alaykum

herjihad wrote: Angel wrote: herjihad wrote: Bismillah, Patty, I should have known that you would just twist my words.  You insulted the people of this site by saying that it "bothered you".  Herjihad, Honestly it seems you have taken this out of proportion and in your temper are twisting words of hers around. The "bothered you" you have completely missed patty' point. This is the sentence of what was said:  There are MANY Muslims near where I live....we all live together peacefully.  We have no problems...that's one reason this site bothers me.  In other words, The muslims she interacts at home with are different here on this site and are peaceful and tolerant whereas for this site patty experiences something else - the opposite and that bothered her for which she cannot figure out why the extreme differences. You think Patty has been insulting perhaps you can check your words again. If I were a moderator, I would have banned you long ago for the way you insult the Muslims and friends of Muslims here.  What?  Muslims wanting a corner of the internet where they are not ridiculed for their faith and desire to live peacefully and garner support for issues we care about seems like to much for you? with that attitude, you shouldn't be moderator. Bismillah, Not interested in moderating this board, chicita.  I have a busy life as mom and a wife.  And power corrupts, so I'm really not going there at all.  AstagfirAllah! Nuf said.

lol, good evasion.

Bismillah,

The evasion of rounds of mutual insults is not a bad thing when no good will come out of it.

Salaamu Alaykum

ak_m_f wrote: Patriotism means NOT BEING PROPAGANDISTS FOR THE GOVERNMENT. Patriotism, for you, and for me, and for all of us, means not allowing the truth to be the first casualty of war.

Never so true a statement. 

Once upon a time the US stayed out of Foreign Affairs.  The Monroe Doctrine was very simple, you stay out of our Affairs and we'll stay out of yours. 

Over the years, this deteriorated into further and further excuses to interfer in the Western Hemisphere and was finally thrown out all together with World War I.

Globalization has caused a number of problems.  Isolationism is no longer viable but neither is the constant interference.

I love the United States, but she needs to learn to mind her own business.  Human suffering will continue no matter what we do.  But at the very least we can not cause any new problems.

Patty such a sad statement! there is hope for humanity we should always maintain a state of hope.

Ak

What you said I cannot fully argue against because yes I have stated that the United States' imagine has deteriorated over time, and yes, perhaps the contradictions and lies has caught up to us. Frankly I'm at a point as an American to allow the rest of the world barbarically destroy itself and take care of the domestic terrorism at home.

"White Westerners can look at images of crushed Palestinians and
Lebanese and feel disgust. But we see images of maimed and broken
Black Africans, and we don�t feel as related to them. This is mostly to
do with how Black Africans are portrayed in the media and film/
culture. It is also to do with the extreme sense of futility we feel
when we see how utterly corrupt and inneffective Black African
leaders are."

I respect your opinion, Duende, but this is not the opinions of most Americans.  I have lived all over the country, from one coast to the other, and the great majority of Americans are deeply distressed by the suffering of Black Africans.  Btw, my husband is also an artist, and we are not concerned with material things.  We live a very simple life on the coast of Maine, in the woods in a cottage.  Most of our friends live the same.  There are the very poor, poor, middle class, upper middle class, and wealthy in this country.  The majority are certainly not wealthy! 

My husband and I help support many humanitarian causes the best we can.....as do many of our friends who have no more financial resources than we have.  You should not be so quick to paint an entire country with one wide brush.  Millions of Americans are greatly saddened by what is happening to the suffering in Africa, India, Haiti, and many other countries.  We can't obviously save them all, but we do try.  I am amazed at how so many who are not Americans, or do not really know many Americans, portray us as something we most definitely are not.  We care very deeply for others around the world. We are not unsympathetic.  I feel most Americans know we are very blessed to have what we do have, and the monies donated by individual Americans during times of great hardship and/or catastrophes in various areas of the world, show this is so. 

Here is one article regarding American aid to Africa.  There are many others, but then if I post them, I'm not being humble...so damned if we do...damned if we don't.

  http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/06/13/AR2005061300126.html - http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/06 /13/AR2005061300126.html

"When the war in Iraq
was just a year old, in Times Square a big display was set up showing
how many dollars it was costing. Not how many lives. How many
dollars."

There were, and are, MANY signs which reveal how many have died since the war began too, and I believe you realize this.  In the very tiny village next to where I live there is a big field which is filled with tiny white flags, each one representing the death of an Iraqi since the beginning of the war, and it changes everyday.  These scenes are all across the country.  No, it is NOT that Americans don't care.  It is just the opposite....but many still persist in their attempts to portray us as people who don't care.   How many care when an American dies?  Not many, I'd wager.  So how compassionate is that?

God's Peace. 

Angela wrote: Isolationism is no longer viable

ummm....i wonder how OBL does it then  

sorry couldn't resist, but yes I understood your post

Angela wrote: Yeah, but I'm sure he's not really enjoying life.

Well, whether he is or not, I sometimes wonder what Judgement Day will be like for him.  Of Course, only God knows the answer to that.  And many others will be shaking in their boots on that day as well.  I see life here on earth as a grain of sand on the beach....but I see eternity as all the sand on the beach.  I'm much more concerned about eternity than I am my brief life here on Earth.

God's Peace!

Dear Hanan,

You are so anti-American, bigoted, and mean spirited, I wouldn't begin to respond to you again.  I am here to speak to mature, knowledgeable people from all sides.  You have one purpose, and one purpose only for being here (for just one month I might add), and that is to promote your hatred of the United States and any American and/or non-Muslim you can latch on to.  Well, that won't be me, because I don't play the game.  I've just stepped out of your non-peaceful circle.  If you want to have a conversation which is fair and mature, let me know.

May you learn the meaning of peace.

Hanan wrote: Patty wrote: There were, and are, MANY signs which reveal how many have died since the war began too, and I believe you realize this. In the very tiny village next to where I live there is a big field which is filled with tiny white flags, each one representing the death of an Iraqi since the beginning of the war, and it changes everyday. Anti-war activists put them there, not the average white American. Needless to say the activists are treated like so much dirt by their fellow Americans. No, it is NOT that Americans don't care. It is just the opposite....but many still persist in their attempts to portray us as people who don't care. Americans in general don�t care about anything but the dead presidents. That is one thing Blacks and Whites have in common, and they kill for it if they have to. How many care when an American dies? Not many, I'd wager. So how compassionate is that? As soon as AMERICANS start caring about the teenagers and other much-too-young-to-die soldiers, then maybe the world would see that Americans have a heart and start caring too. Why should I care about the death of a soldier who�s mother says that she is proud that he died for his country. The mothers of the suicide bombers say the same thing, but they are hated by Americans for saying it. Is his country under threat? Terrorists? Doesn�t this mean that the government of Americans isn�t doing its job. The greatest country in the world? Not true! Sweden is the greatest country in the world!!! Can you refute that? It is my opinion that Americans hate themselves and therefore think that everyone else hates them too. When will they realize that we have much more pity for them than any other emotion.

Bismillah,

As one American who does not hate herself, I thought I should let you know that small fact, Sister.   In fact, I try to only hate that which Allah, The Most Loving would want me to hate.

The fact that you're right about is that America is supplying the weapons and warfare around this globe right now.  In the past, we could look to England, France, Italy, Portugal and even the Ottomans.  But when America is the one exporting the bombs and money and your country is the one they are landing on, how can (And get this, Brother Israfil, your original topic) people not "dislike" America?

Oh, Sister, I think you're lovely, warm-hearted and diligent.

Salaamu Alaykum

Assalamu alaikum Sister Hanan,

I know you won't lose any sleep over Patty's name calling, but so you know, I give you "two thumbs up"!

Assalamu alaikum Sister Herjihad,

Good post!

Patty,

You have made it quite apparent from many of your posts that you will scream "hater", "anti-american", "bigoted" and the like to just about anyone who does not see the world in the same way that you do.  Like it or not, you seem to represent the kind of American that makes so many others in the world just shake their heads in disbelief at the incredulity of your refusal to see the world through anything but your own eyes.

Peace, ummziba.

I have one response to Hanan's assertion the average american is somehow for the war...  Do you realize that the support for the war has dwindled to less than 1/3? 

So, by laws of averages, the Average american does not support the war.

Though, I will give you credit and Patty might disagree with me.  Those of us who are vocal against Israel, the War on Terrorism and against the administration are often treated with hostility by those that do.

There is a silent majority here in the US.  Most americans would rather end the war, bring home the troops and focus on domestic issues. 

The administration has been doing a good job of keeping this silent majority quiet by using fear, intimidation and propaganda.

I am disgusted by the assertions made by some of you that Americans are somehow all white bigots and apathetic warmongers.

This is where I loose respect for your arguements. 

First off, this is a nation of many cultures.  You can enter every major city and find clusters of ethnic groups living together.  Yes, there is racism.  But what gets the news?  Certainly not the good.

There are 295 Million Americans....and yet, a handful of stories, politicians and criminals is all you see. 

How about those poor americans who DON'T give a second thought to the middle east?  Did you ever stop to think why?  They are too busy trying to survive.  They don't have the money or education to fight to get the government to stop.  This applies to most of the middle class as well.  Many are just trying to survive.

You talk about the racism in America, but I see Arabs being just as racist against others.  America does not have a monopoly on Racism.  If anything there are far worse societies when it comes to this. 

We have a freedom of press, which means all our dirty laundry gets aired for all to see.  But many of the complaints I've seen here are universal sins of many countries.

The US has the misfortune right now of being the only true Superpower in the world.  Therefore, no one looks at the arms dealing coming out of Russia.

Herjihad wrote: But when America is the one exporting the bombs and money and your country is the one they are landing on, how can (And get this, Brother Israfil, your original topic) people not "dislike" America?

This is why most of the warlords in Africa carry AKs?  Why Hizbollah has Katushka Rockets? 

The majority of illegal weapons sales do not come out of the US.  There are two major groups that get Weapons from the US Israel and Pakistan.

Now, Since all the world doesn't universally have problems with this group, its only the Middle East that has issue with us selling to Israel.

I notice that in peoples signatures, many of the worst American haters live here.

So can I ask why?

Hanan wrote: Patty wrote: There were, and are, MANY signs which reveal how many have died since the war began too, and I believe you realize this. In the very tiny village next to where I live there is a big field which is filled with tiny white flags, each one representing the death of an Iraqi since the beginning of the war, and it changes everyday. Anti-war activists put them there, not the average white American. Needless to say the activists are treated like so much dirt by their fellow Americans. No, it is NOT that Americans don't care. It is just the opposite....but many still persist in their attempts to portray us as people who don't care. Americans in general don�t care about anything but the dead presidents. That is one thing Blacks and Whites have in common, and they kill for it if they have to. How many care when an American dies? Not many, I'd wager. So how compassionate is that? As soon as AMERICANS start caring about the teenagers and other much-too-young-to-die soldiers, then maybe the world would see that Americans have a heart and start caring too. Why should I care about the death of a soldier who�s mother says that she is proud that he died for his country. The mothers of the suicide bombers say the same thing, but they are hated by Americans for saying it. Is his country under threat? Terrorists? Doesn�t this mean that the government of Americans isn�t doing its job. The greatest country in the world? Not true! Sweden is the greatest country in the world!!! Can you refute that? It is my opinion that Americans hate themselves and therefore think that everyone else hates them too. When will they realize that we have much more pity for them than any other emotion.

Where did I post anything bigoted or hateful in my post.  I was pointing out that in our small community even we place flags to remind us of the many deaths which have, and are occurring in Iraq.  I work, along with my Church, for many efforts for peace.  I do not support President Bush.  I never have said that I support him.  I detest politics!

You insult me on a regular basis, and you have no idea what my thoughts really are.  As you have just been here a few weeks, how could you possibly know me?  Or have you been here a bit longer under a different "name"?  Or are you perhaps being "coached" by another person?

So, I am supposed to hate the country I was born and raised in because I cannot control the federal government??  How ludicrous! Of course this country has faults....every country has faults.  But I wonder sometimes why so many people from other lands want to come here to live in such an evil place, and those who are here are determined to stay...they certainly don't want to leave.  Why is that if this country is so terrible?

You have been misjudging me for several days now, and I have no idea why.  I have my opinions which may differ from yours.  That's natural to have differences.  But I am not blind.  I am well-read and have much compassion for all those who are suffering.  You choose to disregard anything I say, or even condemn me for calling the Iraqi people "fine Iraqi people".  It would not matter to you what I say because you (for whatever reasons) dislike me personally.  Both you and herjihad have taken to insulting me, talking rudely to me, and twisting my opinions and words.  I have absolutely no idea why.

But it doesn't matter, really.  I know what I am....that I do love all people as God commanded us.  That I spend much time working for peaceful efforts within my church and community.  So if it pleases you in some unknown (by me) way to behave as you are, then go ahead.  Hopefully the many Muslims here who do know what I'm really like will stand up for me....and if not, well that's okay too.  But it is very disheartening and saddening to see how you treat others you have no real knowledge of.

God's Peace.  (I do hope your reasons come to light one day.)

Patty,

You have made it quite apparent from many of your posts that you will scream "hater", "anti-american", "bigoted" and the like to just about anyone who does not see the world in the same way that you do.

Don't listen to her at all and, please, don't worry. Tomorrow I will search around and find a few new words for you. They are just a bit bored with these three you have in hand.

Whisper, et al:  They are "Love", "Universal", "Family"....we'll get there one day, but we have to get outside our tribal and personal egos first.  Oh how little we have grown as a species!  

Just one more instance of "Cassandra's" prophecies being ignored.

When I joined this forum, I thought you were looking for answers!!! The questions are obvious enough. Get a Life, Folks!

Cass.

P.S., Herjihad: Forgive me.  We seem to be sharing The Colour Purple.  Pistols at Dawn?  Or shall we just get together for a cup of tea? "She who shall not be named" now seems to be a distant memory.  I am happy to go back to Green?

I have indeed come to the realization that America's image has been tarnished overtime, due to not only its policies, but its actions to various peoples over this planet. With that saying all what has been said here in opposition to the United States is somewhat accurate. I can understand the dislike for those of you who really dislike (or even hate) the United States. But the problem with those of you who complain about the one-sidedness of the United States too, have the same one-sidedness that America reflects.

The average response to "resistence" fighters and "suicide bombers" does not have the same resounding disdain as the average "American hater." Obviously, for many reasons noted here is the excuse that such an individual is reacting from the many decades of oppression of the United States. I really want people to see both sides of the spectrum. It is easy to dislike or hate America but not easy to dislike or hate the individual who professes belief in Islam and kills in the name of religion. I hate both actions. One by my country and one by so-called people of my faith. Any lief that is taken innocently by someone of my faith is not supported by me let's get that clear. But also, we as Muslims must also take into account for ourselves including me, on our moral accountability.

I cannot stress that enough because as we all believe God will judge each of us accordingly. A friend of mine had an interesting theory that since we as humans reach the end of our evolutionary cycle (of the formation of our being etc) from hunter-gatherer to parasite we have indeed over populated and over consumed our resources (at least almost) to the point where we humans will, in the near future kill each other for the other persons resources. Sounds far fetched? No closer to the truth then the average stop sign in your city.

Hanan wrote: You wrote: I notice that in peoples signatures, many of the worst American haters live here. Now THAT is a racist/biased/prejudiced statement if I�ve ever �heard� one. You are of the kind that would like all foreigners, especially Muslims to get out of our country, aren�t you? If you can show me one post in which a Muslim (and that�s who you�re talking about, correct?) wrote that he or she HATES America, then I will leave this forum. But if you have to say that �it is YOUR perception� that a Muslim meant to say that he or she hates America, then please don�t even bother to answer.

Ok well since most of the post wasn't to me I'll just skip to the part where I almost fell out of my chair. Myself I read that she is saying the most anti-American people are people who live here in America. Yet you somehow take that as she is racist who wants all muslims out of America. Wow what a jump you made there!!! Maybe you missed some of Salmons post before he was banned but if I remember correct he talked about hating America and it's immoral people so if you just look in some of the old topics I'm sure you will see something.

.

Hanan if I may and I know that your comments wasn't directly at me but the following was curious to me:

The word Racism comes from Race. That�s like saying - Caucasians are racist against other Caucasians, African Americans are racist against other Arfican Americans. What your TRYING to say is: Arabs discriminate against other Arabs. Correct?

Whas this a tought from another persons comments or what you took from her comment? Just curious

.

Just for Argument's sake I'll comment......

I don't like Bush as a President because of obviously reasons which I don't need to list here. I don't support Bush because number one I never voted for him in the first place. My first vote in 2000 was for Al Gore and then in '04 I voted for Kerry. I felt that my so-called sacred vote was robbed in '00 but oh well!

Hanan your turn!

Bismillah

Dear all,

Through participation in this forum we should learn to at least understand others' opinions if we are unable to respond without personal attacks.  There is a lot of unnecessary pride and self-attributed importance in the threads. There is still a lot of garbage in the discussions, let's try and keep this place clean, insha Allah. Islam teaches us to say something that is good, otherwise remain silent.

And for those who felt they were treated unfairly - stay patient, for that is the reflection of real strength. 

---

Patty, in many of your posts you tend to derail the subject by predominant "you said, i said, she said" statements... try to avoid such approach and discuss the subject, not people.

Cassandra wrote: Whisper, et al:  They are "Love", "Universal", "Family"....we'll get there one day, but we have to get outside our tribal and personal egos first.  Oh how little we have grown as a species!   Just one more instance of "Cassandra's" prophecies being ignored. When I joined this forum, I thought you were looking for answers!!! The questions are obvious enough. Get a Life, Folks! Cass. P.S., Herjihad: Forgive me.  We seem to be sharing The Colour Purple.  Pistols at Dawn?  Or shall we just get together for a cup of tea? "She who shall not be named" now seems to be a distant memory.  I am happy to go back to Green?

Bismillah,

I don't know.  It's not so important to me. Color choice is so optional.  And do you think we should commit to just one color?

Hanan said:  If you can show me one post in which a Muslim (and that�s who you�re talking about, correct?) wrote that he or she HATES America, then I will leave this forum. But if you have to say that �it is YOUR perception� that a Muslim meant to say that he or she hates America, then please don�t even bother to answer.

Sister, so many of them have come and gone; but you are new.  Still, don't make statments like this because we want you to stay!

Salaamu Alaykum

Angela said: There is a silent majority here in the US.  Most americans would rather end the war, bring home the troops and focus on domestic issues. 

The administration has been doing a good job of keeping this silent majority quiet by using fear, intimidation and propaganda.

I am disgusted by the assertions made by some of you that Americans are somehow all white bigots and apathetic warmongers.

Bismillah,

In Shah Allah, the silent majority that you speak of will prevail.  Brother Ginghis's conversation by the water cooler under the Muslim President topic speaks for a vocal minority then?  But they are the ones encouraging the bloodshed, so is the voice of the majority the most important, or the loud, raucous voice of the well-known battle cry going to continue to rule?

Angela wrote: ak_m_f wrote: Patriotism means NOT BEING PROPAGANDISTS FOR THE GOVERNMENT. Patriotism, for you, and for me, and for all of us, means not allowing the truth to be the first casualty of war. Never so true a statement.  Once upon a time the US stayed out of Foreign Affairs.  The Monroe Doctrine was very simple, you stay out of our Affairs and we'll stay out of yours.  Over the years, this deteriorated into further and further excuses to interfer in the Western Hemisphere and was finally thrown out all together with World War I. Globalization has caused a number of problems.  Isolationism is no longer viable but neither is the constant interference. I love the United States, but she needs to learn to mind her own business.  Human suffering will continue no matter what we do.  But at the very least we can not cause any new problems.

Bismillah,

I agree that at the very least we can try with all of our hearts and efforts not to cause any new problems.

In this world we have to have a passport.  So mine is American.  I consider myself a loyal Muslimah earthling.

Salaamu Alaykum

One difference between the current situation and the Vietnam war was the fact that there was a draft and people were sent who did not choose voluntarily to be in the military.

If there was a draft things would become far more different. More people would be vocal as their brothers, sons and fathers would be forced into the war.

In general people are quite comfortable with their lives or on the other scale, working too hard to survive.

I went to one group that was talking about the Middle East situation. I felt like things were in a time warp as the speaker talked about "Comrade Lenin" and "Comrade Castro"

I went to one group that was talking about the Middle East situation. I felt like things were in a time warp as the speaker talked about "Comrade Lenin" and "Comrade Castro"

After watching the natural strengths of these women, here, I am now certain that only women will be able to put our planet right. Poor man has shown his best ability and look what it has come to look like!

Sarsawati women were smart, they kept men for mere menial tasks. Sad, but my gender was not manufactured for what we have started to assume - responsibility for the society.