Bismillah

If we are incapable of delivering then let's not look for excuses that may help us cover our impotence... Let's not call for peace at a time when we are forcefully served war... let's just sit and watch quietly as property of our brethren is being taken away, as children of our brethren are being murdered, as wives and sisters of our brethren are being raped and insulted, as the best amongst us are labeled as the scum of humankind... as our brethren is brought to their knees in humiliation... as our brave youth throws herself fearlessly before death for our silence and indifference... as we are called to war but our leaders are running in cowardice directing us onto a roadmap to piss...

let's also not condemn actions of those who RESPOND... even if their response is not conducted in the best of ways that could have been considered... let's pray that we will not be of those thrown out of the houses watching our fellow-Muslims looking down or preoccupied with some artificial affairs... shame on us living in the comfort... shame on us unable to reflect the courage conviction and determination of the Early Ummah... shame on us!... and may Allah forgive us... guide us... and help us become victorious...

let's have more moments of silence... during which we reflect and think... think of the purpose of life... of the true meaning of Shahada... depicted on our common flag... the only flag that we should hold high...

Assalamu alaikum,

So nice to see you back, Brother Mockba!  Surely the events of this world are spiraling ever faster beyond reason.  It is indeed time for us all to turn with sincere hearts back to the Qur'an and Sunnah.

Peace, ummziba.

Assalamu Alaikum,

Yes, only our sincere return to Qur'an and Sunnah can make the difference.  May Allah guide us all.

Brother Mockba, nice to see you back. Jazak Allah Khair.

Peace

Perhaps this may be praised to others but MOCKBA how about you join them on the battle field if you feel so strongly as you say:

>>>>let's also not condemn actions of those who RESPOND... even if their response is not conducted in the best of ways that could have been considered... <<<<

Sound slike Tit for Tat here....A lot of my brethren whine about how Israeli violence kills innocence in their blast radius. What about so-called Muslims who blow themselves up? Is this truly justified? What if the act of suicide bombing kills an innocent boy or girl? Should we respond in the same manner? To me you are giving up diplomacy my firned and other son the website, because you are famous celebrates that. However you did mention about returning to the clarity of Islam which I fully agree however in the midst of your ambiguous talk on the "road map to piss" perhaps that clarity of true Islam could be better brought out in the beginning of your premise

Bismillah

Brother Israfil, thank you for reading my post. It is easy for us to sit down and voice out our opinions in the comfort of peace that we have. I would condemn any carefully planned suicide attack, however I will refrain from responding to your argument... simply because I will never know how it feels to be a Palestinian surviving in an occupied territory today... I am convinced that if there was no injustice performed by the imported zionists towards the Palestinians, who somehow managed to live in harmony with the Jews prior to the establishment of Israel, there wouldn't be so much violence...  Hence i suggest you re-look at your follwing statement:

you wrote: A lot of my brethren whine about how Israeli violence kills innocence in their blast radius.

As far as ambiguity is concerned, there is plenty of it in the news reports and statements of our current leaders... therefore I may have been influenced in a way. 

All this is doing is justifying a non-religious cause and immorality...Don't get me wrong, what the Israeli government is doing and has done is outright wrong and does nothing but further its bloodshed. However with respect to my community, the Muslim community, I have to be more strict because as you have mentioned above in your post that the taking of innocent life is universally condemned.

To say "They are under immense pressure" is to say in the same breath that someone who is serving time for manslaughter is justified because he/she was under pressure and psychological distress. It still does not justify the means. Bush's Road Map is indeed horrible I agree but to say "We sit around and do nothing" I would invite those who are taking the time to write their post take the time to involve themselves in what they truly believe.

Bismillah

DavidC, thanks for the comment. In my simple opinion the battle and war has begun long time ago by pounding of Afghanistan, Iraq, systematic destruction of Palestine and openly threatening Syria and Iran...  

Hezbollah chose the timing for the response (not for the battle) when they thought it was inevitable. An Israeli military campaign of such scale is not the matter of saving two soldiers and does not take just few weeks to prepare...

Once again I want to remind everyone that this is my personal opinion which is not always based on a firsthand information from the region.

To Brother Israfil, yes I am ashamed that I am helpless when my Muslim brothers and sisters (and I don't mean those fighting for a national non-religious material or even territorial cause) are being murdered to the silence of their Brothers elsewhere in the world.

With this shame I started this thread, if you notice... I am not calling for anyone to join the battlefield or bolw themselves up in despair... neither am I planning to take up guns as I am not a sharp shooter... If you truly understand the situation of human lives in the region you would not be comparing them to someone serving time for manslaughter...  Every time someone blows himself up in despair he makes a statement to us - Muslims that we have failed to prevent him from doing so... He could have read your statements and understood that so-called "brethren" does not care.

Bismillah irrahman irrahim

Assalamu alaikum

You know reading this reminds me of interview of musawi, the executive of a tv channel in lebonon. BBC reporter said to him during his interview that their building got attacked because they are propaganda wing for hizbullah. Musawi just looked at him and laughed and said 'the shameless hypocricy of west'. He asked the reporter, so do you think those bridges, hospitals and schools were some sort of network of hizbullah too? Reporter's innocent reply was 'but hizbullah started the war by kidnapping two soldiers'. Musawi reply was, 'go to cities of lebonon, you dont have to knock many doors and you will find out that in last 23 years one in every few houses is missing its son, father, brother or a member of family. They all are in jails in israel. So its ok for you to take our innocent citizens in hundreds but when your two soldiers get taken, you destroy the cities.'

interesting enough, couple of years back a tradesman was taken by hizbullah and israel released 400 people in exchange for that one person. You think they would release any of them if israel had anything against them. No we muslims get captured because we are muslims and because no one is going to say a word if few hundred of us get slaughtered. A reporter on BBC was showing these newspapers which show that 85% of israeli population want this to carry on till there are missiles coming there way. As if those missiles were the start of the war. And dont tell me i know 'Hizbullah started all this'. All i want to say is 'shameless hypocricy'.

Brother israfil, I really have lost words and please dont start that guilt trip again that no muslim has given you feel of ummah. You write lines and lines about how immoral it is on behalf of muslims and a meaningless sentence about america and israel. I still am waiting for anything which would mean something against the brutal murder carried out by israel or injustice carried out by america.

Lastly DavidC They are like a mouse yanking the whisker of a sleeping cat.  You know what i could not even find an animal who is so brutal, cunning and wicked. Wolf and all the other animals, they hunt and kill for survival not for mere play and because they can do it or my favourite 'because hizbullah attacked them first'

wassalam

Asalam..... brothers n sisters in ISLAM.

May the Light of ALLAH (NUR) will be in each every Muslim heart so the NAR will disappeared from US.

Isya ALLAH.

Bismillah

Israel created Hamas... it is an oranization created as a reaction to Israel's motives and moves. When corrupt governments of Muslim nations failed to respond to injustices committed towards their people by external powers these DIY organizations have been established with their "not-so-smart" bombs.

Where is your call to a non-violent diplomacy when unarmed children are shot dead live on the TV by Israeli troops, when peace activists (even non-Muslims) are crushed under Israeli bulldozers, when the entire nation is kept in filthy concentration camps and prisons, when old men are murdered in their wheelchairs... when all of the mentioned practices become almost daily affair...? Of course, there are some who are sad primarily because the beaches in Lebanon empty these days... and I hope you are not one of them, Israfil.     

DavidC wrote: I missed the newspaper article about the Lebanese Army. Was it in the sports section or the comic section?

I saw one featured in CNN "section"... Comic News Network.

  http://edition.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/meast/07/18/mideast/index.html - http://edition.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/meast/07/18/mideast/index. html

You know what, I am sick and tired of things being blamed on isreal, NOT THAT I AGREE WITH THEIR RETAILATION OF 2 HOSTAGES TAKEN BY HEZBOLLAH,

THIS time it is hezbollah's fault! they probably knew what would happen, and it did, AND now isreal is getting blamed for all, but please excuse me but isreal is NOT all to blame!

And another thing. To the muslims stop thinking this is about muslims - me me me BECAUSE it is not muslims that are getting hurt or attacked on soley. 

both hezabollah and isreal are hitting all citizens. hezabollah is as much hitting citizens and towns than they could before!

Angel point well said!

MOCKBA I perhaps agree with what you said that being Israel creating Hamas but again we are going back to the justification of terrorist groups. Time and time over many of you said "what do they do when they are fighting against tanks and rifles?" I remember a case where the people of Iran ousted the Shah without even using weapons! Many people were indeed massacred however it was non-violent to my understanding. The same can be said of Dr. King's movement (and please don't even fathom saying that this example isn't relevant) Dr. King walked hand in hand down a crowded street of angry whites who hated him ignorantly, because he is peace loving and because of his skin color.

Trust me.....If there didn't exist non-militarized groups such as Hamas and Hezbollah and if there were to only be civilians being killed the world including America would definitely be more inclined to be sympathetic. Because if Israel is seen only as the agressor without any retaliatory attacks coming from the other side, that being Palestinian terrorist groups and Lebanese Terrorist groups then the world would definitely and unanimously be more sympathetic. The world of course is sympathetic now however not as on the same level as it is with Israel.

Honestly, I feel sorry for both civilians. you all may only care about the children but I care about all lives lost on both sides. Because perhaps many of you are parents and you focus on the children however any innocent lives that are lost are equally as important. However my crazy theory here is that perhaps if Hezbollah or any terrorist faction puts down their arms and actually declare a stand down but Israel continued to bomb then I'd be on the side of Hezbollah.

Bismillah

Israfil, sometimes it helps to take off the shades to see the world in its real colors. Perhaps Rose's pictures are giving you nightmares as they flash images of murdered children, but you may want to notice that I covered all civilians and innocents including old men in wheelchairs in the posts you commented on.

It is useless to fantasize "what the world would be if...". 

You suggest Hezbollah lay down their weapons, would you also like them to deliver themselves together with the rest of Muslims to Guantanamo Bay, lock themselves in prison cells and squat naked before the world to make their point, concerning their determination, clear?

What do you read, brother?

Bismillah

It would indeed be stupid and make no sense. As far as the result of the strategy is concerned, we do not know what it will produce. Time will tell.

Bismillah

May Allah guide us all.

Sign*Reader wrote: [ OK Angel ---it is not about Muslims, it is about Arabs and Jews--it is RACIST war--RU happy. If I take your mother and daughter captive and there is no recourse  available to you. Are you going to wait year after year and not do anything to get them back?Go read  Glatians in your Bible then comeback and tell us what does it say about the Arabs vs Jews.

check your facts again

and by the way I don't have a bible.

Sign Reader, Allow me to destroy a few of your pitiful arguments, you said:

Israfil wrote: Apart of this doctrine (which stems from revelation) a lot of Christians seek to eradicate the Muslim empire by systematically contributing to the support of Israel and its campaign. However let me say that not all christians have this belief nor do majority of Christianity subscribe to these beliefs. Typical answer by most muslims:

Are you over stressed that is hindering your Godly philosophical thought clarity.  This  is  an oxymoronic  statement -- this gibberish doesn't go anywhere first you say-- a lot, then say --not all --Do you know what UR talking about? pitiful

Israfil wrote: The Crusades have no relevance here. This is not a religious war but a political one. What world are you living in? Perhaps you are content with this being religious so that you may indirectly justify the formation of terrorist groups?

Modern day post WWII crusade  has  new paradigm , it is Judeo Christian combined enterprize led by the Jews.

Haven't  U seen the Israeli soldier reading his book of prayer in his break shown  on  CNN  and  don't even go to  this " terrorist" balderdash. Facts only

You need to watch CNN, MSNBC Fox News' Zionist neo con propaganda anchors and reporters and their Zionist/ neocon guests if your are not over worked and can spare  time for it. Read history of the region during commercials.

The bottomline is how dare the brown man challenge the fairboys--the messiah's relatives.

There  is no need for me  to justify  anything  here. 

LET THE BEST MAN WIN

[the "retarded" statement edited by MOCKBA]

[Self-Edited for the purpose of reconciliation]

LOOOL!!

Israfil vs Sign*Reader:

The game is now 2-1 with Israfil in the lead...  Israfil now has the ball...what will be Sign*Reader's next move?  keep watching to find out after these breif messages!

where's the referee who could sight a FOUL a mile away? 

Israfil wrote: Trust me.....If there didn't exist non-militarized groups such as Hamas and Hezbollah and if there were to only be civilians being killed the world including America would definitely be more inclined to be sympathetic. Because if Israel is seen only as the agressor without any retaliatory attacks coming from the other side, that being Palestinian terrorist groups and Lebanese Terrorist groups then the world would definitely and unanimously be more sympathetic. The world of course is sympathetic now however not as on the same level as it is with Israel.

I couldn't agree more.  allow me to relate to you a couple snapshots about the pacifist reactions of prophet Muhammad (SAW) during times of great opposition:    (I emphesized some phrases for easy read and reduced passage sizes for conciseness)

http://www.islamic-study.org/Legacy%20of%20Peace.htm#prevention - http://www.islamic-study.org/Legacy%20of%20Peace.htm#prevent ion

ISLAM: A LEGACY OF PEACE

After the Muslims emigrated to Medina, Quraysh did not stop its aggression, but extended it to their new city in the form of formal war attacks. All three major battles, Badr, Uhud and the Ditch that took place after the Muslims emigrated to Medina, were initiated by Quraysh to attack and finish off the Muslims. In all of the three battles, Muslim�s reactions were purely made in defense, and with each engagement the Muslims attempted to prevent the clash....

Even though the battle of Uhud was in favor of Quraysh (Muslims� dead 70, Quraysh�s dead 45), Quraysh prepared another army to attack the Muslims in their city a year later. However, the Muslims were successful in preventing the battle, known as the battle of the Ditch, from taking place. Quraysh had prepared a ten thousand people army to attack the Muslims in their city. In order to fail their attempt and prevent bloodshed, the Muslims dug a huge ditch around Medina thereby making it impossible for Quraysh to cross it and attack. After forty days of continuous attempts to clash with the Muslims, Quraysh gave up and returned home without a fight. During the forty days, the Muslims overcame the plots of Quraysh made against them, and ignored all the intimidation in which Quraysh poets publicly challenged the Muslims to engage in the war. The Muslims, however, took in the humiliations and intimidations to preserve their noble cause of saving souls and preventing wars.

Prophet Muhammad's magnanimity and mercy spared to his opponents in many other instances during the rise of Islam. A good example is shown in the next story. When Prophet Muhammad was extremely tired from the rejection of his people in Mecca, he went to Ta'iff (150 kilometers southwest of Mecca) calling its people to worship God. There he was utterly turned down by its three leaders. ...The prophet had to leave heartbroken. As he was leaving town, the same leaders who turned him down stirred up their servants and children to insult him and throw rocks and stones at him. As a result, he was cut in his head and body and bled severely where his shoes got full and saturated with blood. As he reached the outskirts of Ta'iff, inconsolable, he made this prayer:

"O my God, unto You I complain of my weakness, of my helplessness, and of my lowliness before men. O Most Merciful of the merciful, You are Lord of the weak. And You are my Lord. Into whose hands will You entrust me? Unto some far off stranger who will ill-treat me? Or unto a foe whom You have empowered against me? I care not if Your wrath is not on me�"

Upon this, the Angel of Mountains came to the service of Prophet Muhammad asking his permission to close the two mountains on the people of Ta'iff, but despite his deepest wound of rejection, the compassionate Muhammad replied: "No, God may bring from their offspring people who would testify to the oneness of God and worship Him."

This story of the Prophet with the people of Ta'iff indeed proves the Prophet�s zeal and love of peace that indeed overpowered his anger and wounds. His big heart refused the request to punish the people who badly rejected him in the anticipation that at one point in the future they or their offspring may come to realize the truth. His vision was so true. All the people of this city later embraced Islam. This is the vision of Islam in promoting its cause for peace, not barbarity. Confirming this God said:

�And We have not sent you (O Muhammad), but as a mercy to the worlds.� Qur�an, 21:107.
�But if you pardon and overlook and forgive � then indeed, Allah is Forgiving and Merciful.� Qur�an, 64:14.

It is our hope that this close look at some historical events interpreted in the light of the culture existed during the rise of Islam, and the illustration of some aspects of Islam concerning aggression and harmony help the reader see a clearer picture of some of the mechanisms of Islam in achieving its ultimate goal

amalhayati2 wrote: pacifist reactions of prophet Muhammad (SAW) during times of great opposition:    (I emphesized some phrases for easy read and reduced passage sizes for conciseness)----------------- Three Major Battles After the Muslims emigrated to Medina, Quraysh did not stop its aggression, but extended it to their new city in the form of formal war attacks. All three major battles, Badr, Uhud and the Ditch that took place after the Muslims emigrated to Medina, were initiated by Quraysh to attack and finish off the Muslims. In all of the three battles, Muslim�s reactions were purely made in defense, and with each engagement the Muslims attempted to prevent the clash

I think this a an apologetics' website bcs it is obfuscating a fact  clearly stated in Quran as related to Badr in surah Anfal. You may read tafsir on your own. It was planned by Allah as such-----And when Allah promised you that one of the parties be yours, and you wanted to have the one that was not armed.i.e., booty and not war. And God wanted to establish the truth by His words, and to cut off teh uttermost part of the unbelievers i.e., By the disaster which he brought upon the chiefs and leaders of Quraysh on the day of Badr.

And I would say most Muslims don't have the foggiest idea that this Sign of Allah exist in Qur'an

Do I need to go into more details?

Another point paying a visit to Taifis was that he was dedicated and was not going any stone unturned but the in reality under God's grand plan, Taif would not be in the right geographic location as compared to Madina.

Look at the map and tell me did you get the scheme of the plan

to Sign*Reader. 

 Brother you just made no sence at all.  i did not understand your argument.