Satan’s Great Manipulation of Christians
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Topic: Satan’s Great Manipulation of Christians
Posted By: salman_s
Subject: Satan’s Great Manipulation of Christians
Date Posted: 05 June 2006 at 5:13am
Satan�s Great Manipulation of the Christians http://www.islaam.com/Scholar.aspx?id=1 - Imam Ibn ul Qayyim al Jawziyyah
It is obvious to anyone with reason that Satan has greatly manipulated these misled people (Christians). He called them and they responded to him; he befooled them and they obeyed him. He manipulated them with regards to Allah, the Exalted and Most High. He also manipulated them with regards to making pictures and statues in churches and then worshipping them, so you will not find one of their churches without the picture of Mary and Jesus, saints and other holy individuals and martyrs of theirs. Most of them prostrate to pictures and statues, and pray to them instead to Allah the Most High� The typical example of what these polytheists are doing is like that of a servant of a king who entered upon a man, so the man jumped from his place, prostrated to the servant, worshipped him, and did to him what he was not supposed to do except to the king. Every rational person would consider him an ignorant and a fool because of what he did, since he did to the king�s servant what he was supposed to do only to the king, in terms of honoring, humbleness and humility. It is well-known that what the servant did here is more likely to cause the king to hate him and look down upon him than to honor him and exalt his status. This is the situation of one who prostrates to creation, or a picture of creation. This is because he resorted to prostration which is the greatest means of reaching the Lord�s pleasure. Such an action is not valid except for Allah, so there is no greater repulsiveness or injustice than doing it for a picture or statue of a servant and equalizing between Allah and His servant. This is why Allah the Most High said, �Verily, shirk (polytheism, setting up partners with Allah) is a great injustice.� [Luqman: 33] Allah the Most High has created his worshippers prone to recognize ugliness in expressing exaltation, glorification, sumbisiveness and humility towards king�s slaves and servants (as such actions are usually done for the king). So what is the situation of the one who shows this type of reverence to king�s enemies? For Satan is the enemy of Allah, and the polytheist is in reality setting Satan, not Allah�s prophets and righteous servants� as a partner with Allah. For the prophets and righteous servants have nothing to do with those who set them as partners with Allah; they are against them and the strongest in hatred of all people towards them. The polytheists, therefore, are only setting up as partners with Allah His enemies, and equalizing between them and Allah in worship, exaltation, prostration and humility. This is why the invalidity and ugliness of polytheism is recognized by sound innate nature and reason, and this type of ugliness is recognized more clearly than its other types. The intent here was to mention Satan�s manipulation of these people in both the foundation and branches of their religion. |
Replies:
Posted By: salman_s
Date Posted: 05 June 2006 at 5:23am
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'The intent here was to mention Satan�s manipulation of these people in both the foundation and branches of their religion.' |
Posted By: Patty
Date Posted: 05 June 2006 at 1:04pm
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Satan manipulates everyone if you allow him to, salman. Not only Christians. He wants all our souls, not just Christian's. Think about it. Peace to you. ------------- Patty I don't know what the future holds....but I know who holds the future. |
Posted By: AnnieTwo
Date Posted: 05 June 2006 at 3:13pm
Dear Patty, I see where the Catholic religion is being maligned from every front. Stay strong, dear Patty. May God be with you. Annie ------------- 14If you are reproached for the name of Christ, blessed are you, for the Spirit of glory and of God rests upon you. On their part He is blasphemed, but on your part He is glorified. 1 Peter 4 |
Patty wrote:Posted By: Patty
Date Posted: 05 June 2006 at 4:53pm
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Dear Annie, Thanks for the advice....no need to worry though. My heros died for the Church, I live to tell the Truth about the Church. Salman's posts stated: "He also manipulated them with regards to making pictures and statues in churches and then worshipping them, so you will not find one of their churches without the picture of Mary and Jesus, saints and other holy individuals and martyrs of theirs. Most of them prostrate to pictures and statues, and pray to them instead to Allah the Most High� " The Catholic Church has pictures and statues in the Churches so as to remind us of the Blessed Virgin, Jesus, and the saints, many of whom were martryd rather than deny their faith. We do not worship the pictures at all. And I have yet to see anyone, anywhere, prostrate themselves before the pictures and/or statues. And if someone did, the parishioners would probably carry them out, thinking they were ill. The only time I have seen someone prostrate themselves is during the Sacrament of Holy Orders, when the new priests are being ordained. This is to show total obedience to Jesus Christ and the Church. We genuflect (bend the right knee to the floor before entering the pew) because of the scripture which says, "at the name of Jesus every knee shall bend." We do NOT pray to the pictures and statues. To do that would be committing the sin of idolatry, which is a mortal (SOUL DAMNING) sin in the Catholic faith. It's right up there with murder, adultery, abortion, etc. The author obviously has either never been in a Catholic Church, or is deliberately lying in an attempt to mislead and prejudice uninformed persons against the Holy Church. Not nice!! God's Peace. ------------- Patty I don't know what the future holds....but I know who holds the future. |
Posted By: Israfil
Date Posted: 05 June 2006 at 5:08pm
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Patty I agree with you. The evil force or Satan is the great manipulator of mankind not just religiously but spiritually. He manipulates all human beings regardless of religion. |
Posted By: Patty
Date Posted: 05 June 2006 at 5:14pm
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Yes, Israfil. It is so true and sad. Satan is not particular at all about who's soul he "snatches". I believe we can all agree on that one. Peace, Patty ------------- Patty I don't know what the future holds....but I know who holds the future. |
Posted By: salman_s
Date Posted: 05 June 2006 at 11:40pm
| But regarding christianity, the christians have become astray as they have followed the footsteps of satan (as shown in the article) |
Posted By: Israfil
Date Posted: 05 June 2006 at 11:46pm
| That same shallow mindset presented in the article can be said of us Muslims! regardless of belief our negative actions can present the influence of the devil. This is why I made the thread "Reasons why I'm against Scholars" |
Posted By: salman_s
Date Posted: 05 June 2006 at 11:56pm
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i have not made any negative action by posting this. i am not doing anything wrong. i am spreading the true message |
Posted By: Patty
Date Posted: 06 June 2006 at 7:09am
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Yes, salman, you are spreading the true message......as you believe it. What we must realize in order to co-exist and find peace on earth, is that we all have the right to our beliefs. If I were somewhat disrespectful, I could say all sorts of nonsense about why your beliefs are wrong. But I could not do that....because you are following your mind and your heart. Isn't that really the bottom line? I feel Almighty God is merciful and just. So He knows when we are very honestly and steadfastly doing our very best as human beings to honor, worship, and adore Him. Maybe I do it in another manner from you, but I still do it. He is my everything. I love our God with all my being. Just as you do in your chosen religion. That is why I believe it is so important to share what we believe, and why we believe it, and not make attempts to show where "you are wrong and everything you believe is wrong, but I am right and everything I believe is right." God created every single one of us, and He loves all of us, even with our many faults and failings....at least in my case. I know I am not perfect, and I never will be. Only God is perfect. We can simply do our best to love and serve Him, and to do what we believe in our hearts is pleasing to Him. On Judgement Day, if we have done that, I honestly believe he will be quite merciful to us. I know you have great faith, Salman. And so do I, but I just have a little different view from yours. We're both trying our best, I think. Don't you think so? Peace Salman! ------------- Patty I don't know what the future holds....but I know who holds the future. |
Posted By: salman_s
Date Posted: 06 June 2006 at 7:39am
masha Allah (how good Allah wishes !) |
Posted By: salman_s
Date Posted: 06 June 2006 at 8:31am
may be you are right sister Patty... |
Posted By: Patty
Date Posted: 06 June 2006 at 10:17am
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Dear Salman, Maybe we're both right! ------------- Patty I don't know what the future holds....but I know who holds the future. |
Posted By: salman_s
Date Posted: 06 June 2006 at 11:06am
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Posted By: Aquinian
Date Posted: 10 June 2006 at 4:39pm
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As others have said, Catholics do not worship pictures, statues, or crosses. Catholics worship the Holy Eucharist. The Holy Eucharist is the body of Christ present in the front of the church, which is why the kneeling takes place. As you would kneel before Allah, so do Catholics kneel before the Jesus Christ, present in the Eucharist. As for the pictures, statues, and crosses, these are comparable to photos taken of your best friend. When you look at photos of your best friend, you do not worship them but use them to remember the friend who is not with you. We use pictures, statues, and crosses to remember the gifts that God has given us. Some might refer me to the Ten Commandments when God says that man shall make no graven image. Catholics make images of God all the time though, so how do we reconcile these beliefs? After God gives this commandment, he then directs the Israelites to build the Ark of the Covenant. For the Ark, he gives them very specific directions to make angels and other images on it. I have heard that Muslims do not allow any images of the prophets or angels because they believe that Allah does not allow any of these images. That is fine, but then that means that Allah and the Jewish God are two different entities with two different rules. One allows the image of angels etc and the other does not. One God allows holy images so long as they are not worshipped, and the other does not allow any images. The God of Abraham does not allow the worship of any image. That's okay for Catholics, because Catholics do not worship any images that they make. They use them to remember and praise God through their talents. It's my belief that Allah and the God of Abraham are two different entities, as defined by their respective followings. I cast no moral judgment on either faith, as I am uninterested in interfaith 'wrangling.' We are all sinners, after all. Peace be with you... |
Posted By: Patty
Date Posted: 10 June 2006 at 7:52pm
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Aquinian said: "Peace be with you..." And also with you...... Pax domini! ------------- Patty I don't know what the future holds....but I know who holds the future. |
Posted By: peacemaker
Date Posted: 10 June 2006 at 9:01pm
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Acquinian: "It's my belief that Allah and the God of Abraham are two different entities, as defined by their respective followings." When you say anything of this sort here, you must quote reference from reliable sources in your support. Allah is the Master of the entire universe, and He sent His Messengers such as Abraham, Moses, Jesus and Muhammad ( peace be upon them ) to guide the mankind from time to time. Peace ------------- Then which of the favours of your Lord will ye deny? Qur'an 55:13 |
Posted By: Andalus
Date Posted: 10 June 2006 at 10:42pm
Greetings. Pagan worship with the use of idols can also consist of not actually worshping the stone, but actually worshipping its representation. I understand the intention of Catholic worship, but I also understand that the road to hell was paved with good intentions. The images become an opiate for worship, and distract from Gd and His message. One cannot simply look at an image and remove it from the center of worship. It is human nature.
Gd ordering images on the Ark is far different from allowing statues of saints and paintings of Gd being depicted as an old "white" man from Europe. Also, the exact status of what can be draw or created is a matter of interpretation for the Jews, and even now 3 D images are still forbidden. Some Rabbis have used the images on the Ark to create a loophole for image creativity for the purpose of education or to beautify the commandments. Once again, this is all academic and open to interpretation.
Your logic produces an impasse for your theology. Noah had "x" number of prohibitions. Moses recieved "y" number of prohibitions, some an addition to that of x. Therefore, The Gd of of Noah is not the same Gd of Moses. So holding your thinking as true, then which Gd did Noah worship?
The church played a game of semantics. So by writing long discourse about the topic of "worship", they could free themselves of any wrong doing.
Great, then please find out which Gd Noah worshiped. I would agree that we are all capable of sinning, but we also have the ability to follow the commands of Gd, regardless of what the church has told you. The proof is from the words of Moses himself, if you hold your OT as true. Peace ------------- A feeling of discouragement when you slip up is a sure sign that you put your faith in deeds. -Ibn 'Ata'llah http://www.sunnipath.com http://www.sunniforum.com/forum/ http://www.pt-go.com/ |
Posted By: DavidC
Date Posted: 10 June 2006 at 10:52pm
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Aquinian, you should be aware that Roman Catholic doctrine clearly states that both Catholics and Muslims worship the same God. # # # Lumen gentium 16 Finally, those who have not yet received the Gospel are related in various ways to the people of God.(18*) In the first place we must recall the people to whom the testament and the promises were given and from whom Christ was born according to the flesh.(125) On account of their fathers this people remains most dear to God, for God does not repent of the gifts He makes nor of the calls He issues.(126); But the plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator. In the first place amongst these there are the Mohamedans, who, professing to hold the faith of Abraham, along with us adore the one and merciful God, who on the last day will judge mankind. Nostra aetate 3 The Church regards with esteem also the Moslems. They adore the one God, living and subsisting in Himself; merciful and all- powerful, the Creator of heaven and earth,(5) who has spoken to men; they take pains to submit wholeheartedly to even His inscrutable decrees, just as Abraham, with whom the faith of Islam takes pleasure in linking itself, submitted to God. Though they do not acknowledge Jesus as God, they revere Him as a prophet. They also honor Mary, His virgin Mother; at times they even call on her with devotion. In addition, they await the day of judgment when God will render their deserts to all those who have been raised up from the dead. Finally, they value the moral life and worship God especially through prayer, almsgiving and fasting. Since in the course of centuries not a few quarrels and hostilities have arisen between Christians and Moslems, this sacred synod urges all to forget the past and to work sincerely for mutual understanding and to preserve as well as to promote together for the benefit of all mankind social justice and moral welfare, as well as peace and freedom. # # # With this in mind, do you still care to continue with your conceit? ------------- Christian; Wesleyan M.Div. |
Posted By: Aquinian
Date Posted: 11 June 2006 at 5:25am
You specify that God makes x NUMBER of prohibitions for Noah and y NUMBER of prohibitions for Moses. The fact that you use "number" is of great significance. The number of rules that Allah gives to Muslims and God gives to Christians may differ, certainly, but the types of rules are what really matter. If Allah tells Muslims not to make any image whatsoever, this directly opposes the rule that God tells the Israelites: make these images for the Ark of the Covenant. Just because Yahweh gives a different number of rules to Noah than Abraham does not mean that there are two different Yahwehs. It matters only if his rules directly conflict. Making images and not making images is a clear and direct conflict between Allah and Yahweh. |
Posted By: Patty
Date Posted: 11 June 2006 at 5:31am
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Dear David, You are correct. I'm not sure if Aquinian is Roman Catholic or not, but I know that I AM! Of course we all worship the same God. The God of Abraham. The priests often have a homily (sermon) regarding this subject during Mass. However, as a Roman Catholic I can also refute Andalus' words regarding the "worship" of statues and pictures. Andalus, my friend, you have, or are being, misled on this idea. I have a beautiful statue of Mary of Fatima in my home, and a framed picture of the Blessed Virgin at the Chapel of Loreto in my home. We have a magnificant painting of the Holy Family (Mary, Joseph, and baby Jesus) which came from St. Patrick's Cathedral in NYC, in our living room. However, we NEVER WOULD THINK OF WORSHIPPING THEM!!!!! It is a mortal (or greivous sin) in my religion....which means if you were to die without repenting a sin such as this you are doomed. I respectfully disagree with your statements that Catholics have learned to "skirt" around what we are really doing. Why would we do that? We have no need to do such a thing. We always say exactly what we believe and why we believe it. If the Church encouraged worshipping of statues and/or pictures, I would not be lying and saying "nope, we don't do that....we do this". But I am telling you the truth because I cannot stand the myths and misconceptions to go about undefended. So to make myself perfectly clear, my friend, we do not worship any "things". We enjoy their beauty and we are reminded of their great faith and love for us by seeing their pictures and statues. (Just as I do when I see the pictures before me of my beloved Grandchildren, but I DON'T worship my Grandchildren as any sort of gods, even though I love them dearly.) We worship God.....the God of Abraham, which in my religion includes God the Father, Jesus the Son, and The Holy Spirit. Three entities, ONE GOD. As you know, I don't expect you or anyone of another faith to believe as I do......but I also cannot in good conscience allow misconceptions, myths, and untruths go undefended about my chosen religion either. God's Blessings Upon You! ------------- Patty I don't know what the future holds....but I know who holds the future. |
Posted By: Aquinian
Date Posted: 11 June 2006 at 5:33am
While you are correct about Catholic doctrine, I am not the most adherent of Catholics when it comes to theological "decrees" from the church. I prefer to hear it from the source: Jesus said to them, "I tell you the truth, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day." John 6:53-54 Though I sincerely believe that Muslims are devout and moral people, Christ states this without equivocation. The Church often acts as a diplomatic body without considering the addage: WWJD? |
Posted By: Patty
Date Posted: 11 June 2006 at 5:33am
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Here is what the Catholic Church believes regarding statues and paintings: Do Catholics Worship Statues?
God Said To Make Them People who oppose religious statuary forget about the many passages where the Lord commands the making of statues. For example: "And you shall make two cherubim of gold [i.e., two gold statues of angels]; of hammered work shall you make them, on the two ends of the mercy seat. Make one cherub on the one end, and one cherub on the other end; of one piece of the mercy seat shall you make the cherubim on its two ends. The cherubim shall spread out their wings above, overshadowing the mercy seat with their wings, their faces one to another; toward the mercy seat shall the faces of the cherubim be" (Ex. 25:18�20). During a plague of serpents sent to punish the Israelites during the exodus, God told Moses to "make [a statue of] a fiery serpent, and set it on a pole; and every one who is bitten, when he sees it shall live. So Moses made a bronze serpent, and set it on a pole; and if a serpent bit any man, he would look at the bronze serpent and live" (Num. 21:8�9). Peace and Wisdom! ------------- Patty I don't know what the future holds....but I know who holds the future. |
Posted By: Patty
Date Posted: 11 June 2006 at 5:52am
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Dear Aquinian, Are you a practicing Catholic? If so your following statement, as I'm sure you yourself realize, is dissident and goes against the doctrine of the Church, Holy Father, and Magisterium: "I am not the most adherent of Catholics when it comes to theological "decrees" from the church." IF you are Roman Catholic you are aware that you cannot "pick and choose, or decide to be a 'cafeteria Catholic', believing what you want, and discarding doctrine which is inconvenient or fails to suit your agenda.....it's like being a little bit pregnant, you either are or you're not. Same with being Catholic, you either believe the Church, or you don't. And if you don't believe all dogma and catechism, you are not in full communion with Holy Mother Church. So I don't think it would be prudent to come to this site and tell "half-truths" to these fine people. If I am mistaken by your statement, please forgive my lecture, but let me know why you made such a comment regarding the Church. I am particularly confused/distraught by your statement " I am not the most adherent of Catholics when it comes to theological "decrees" from the church. I prefer to hear it from the source:" As you are fully aware, the theological "decrees" or DOGMA/DOCTRINES are given to the Holy Father and Magisterium through the power of the Holy Spirit, as Jesus told us He would send the Holy Spirit to them to shepard and guide His Church!! I too listen to Jesus words, and Yes, I believe fully in the Holy Eucharist and transubstantiation. But to deny Church Dogma is heresy (as I'm sure you realize). God's peace! ------------- Patty I don't know what the future holds....but I know who holds the future. |
Posted By: Andalus
Date Posted: 11 June 2006 at 8:18am
In the case of x and y, number also includes differences such that "y" includes actions that were allowed with "x". My analogy therefore stands and I ask you which Gd did Noah follow VS Moses, if we follow your linf of reasoning.
Define "rules conflicting". in the case of those laws given to Noah, on could eat pork. Moses was not allowed pork. A conflict exists.. So which Gd did Noah worhsip VS Moses. Peace ------------- A feeling of discouragement when you slip up is a sure sign that you put your faith in deeds. -Ibn 'Ata'llah http://www.sunnipath.com http://www.sunniforum.com/forum/ http://www.pt-go.com/ |
Posted By: BMZ
Date Posted: 11 June 2006 at 9:16am
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A comic relief: "The U.S. Congress officially recognized the Noahide Laws in legislation which was passed by both houses. Congress and the President of the United States, George Bush, indicated in Public Law 102-14, 102nd Congress, that the United States of America was founded upon the Seven Universal Laws of Noah, and that these Laws have been the bedrock of society from the dawn of civilization. They also acknowledged that the Seven Laws of Noah are the foundation upon which civilization stands and that recent weakening of these principles threaten the fabric of civilized society, and that justified preoccupation in educating the Citizens of the United States of America and future generations is needed. For this purpose, this Public Law designated March 26, 1991 as Education Day, U.S.A." "Verse 3, God shows that "EVERY MOVING THING SHALL BE MEAT FOR YOU, unlike what God allows for the "Children of Israel"." I don't know whether Congress has ratified this? Source: http://www.auburn.edu/~allenkc/7laws.html - http://www.auburn.edu/~allenkc/7laws.html
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Posted By: Aquinian
Date Posted: 11 June 2006 at 9:21am
You are a fine Catholic Patty, and I'm glad you're concerned for another Catholic's welfare. It shows you've got sincere love. Yes, I am a practicing Catholic. The Church's stance regarding Muslims has nothing to do with it's theological dogma. The Church would just as soon convert all other religions to Catholicism, making the point moot. When I say that the God of Islam is different than the God of Catholicism, I do not speak against the creed of the church, or any other theologically Catholic belief in the Mass, the Eucharist, or The Trinity. I speak against a diplomatic effort by the church to bring about peace between Muslims and Christians, which I happen to believe is unnecessary - Muslims and Christians can get along just fine without believing that their respective faiths are based on the same God. You mention the Chair of Peter, that is, the Pope's direct connection to the Holy Spirit. This connection is not ever-present; therefore, the Church is not infallible at all times. In fact, it is fallible most of the time. How else could the Church allow the evils of its past to occur? I find certain aspects of Allah and Yahweh to be very different. Though Islam and Christianity are both monotheistic, I fail to see many other similarities. Many Muslims point out that there is the Trinity in Christianity and this is Pagan. This means that they believe that the Christian "gods" are different from that of the God of Islam. I don't mean to bring about division, but incite into the faiths. Allah focuses often on different problems than Jesus. What to do when you kill another Muslim - when you kill a non-Muslim? What to do when you steal from a non-Muslim or a Muslim? For Christ, if you kill from the least of people, you kill him. For Allah, if you kill a believer intentionally, you will most certainly go to hell. [4.93] And whoever kills a believer intentionally, his punishment is hell; he shall abide in it, and Allah will send His wrath on him and curse him and prepare for him a painful chastisement. Notice Christ makes no distinction about whether the person is a believer or not. Christ viewed the Gentiles, the sick, the tax collectors, etc as of equal human worth as the believers. I don't read the same into the words of Allah. I have trouble understanding why there is a distinction for believers and none for non-believers. Also, Christ spent time and fraternized with the lowest forms of human life. He spoke to the samaritan woman. This was viewed as foolish because the Jews stayed away from the samaritans since they were non-believers. Allah says the following: [4.144] O you who believe! do not take the unbelievers for friends rather than the believers; do you desire that you should give to Allah a manifest proof against yourselves? This is yet another direct opposition to the actions of Christ. Christ spent more time with unbelievers than with friends. On the cross, in complete humiliation before the world, Christ tells the thief that he will be with him in paradise because of his understanding of Christ's crucifixion. What a meager show of faith and what a huge reward! |
Posted By: Aquinian
Date Posted: 11 June 2006 at 9:27am
Noah was not necessarily told that he could eat pork, so this is not as good of an example. I am a Christian; therefore, I follow the rule that Jesus set forth - "It is not what you put into your mouth, but what comes out that will condemn you." This might conflict directly with what Yahweh told the Israelites, but if I had to compare it to the use of images (which is addressed by the commandments), I would view it as of much less significance. Eating pork is not a salvation issue. If you accidentally eat pork in your lifetime, you're not damned to hell for all eternity. Jesus pointed out that what you say can damn you to hell much more certainly. |
Posted By: BMZ
Date Posted: 11 June 2006 at 9:28am
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Andalus and Aquinian, The Seven Commandments for Noah and the Ten Commandments for Moses. While we are at it, here is something very interesting: The Children of Israel are the Jews, the descendants of the Patriarch Jacob. They are commanded to fulfill the 613 commandments of the Torah. The Children of Noah are the Gentiles, comprising the seventy nations of the world. They are commanded concerning the Seven Universal Laws, also known as the Seven Laws of the Children of Noah or the Seven Noahide Laws. BMZ |
Posted By: Israfil
Date Posted: 11 June 2006 at 10:04am
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Brother Bmzsp but you understand there large gap been observance of those Laws right? I'm sure an intellectual such as yourself are in no need for me to explain that but you are right, those are very interesting...Good post! Patty you allocation of Biblical verses to justify "making statues" is an incorrect justification. There are many devoted Catholics (like yourself) who say that religious icons in the churches you see are not worship but are venerated as intercessors on the behalf of mankind. Although that is ideally great the images in these churches are not only historically inaccurate in the sense of how they looked, but also to venerate others such as saints or even Mary the supposed Mother of God on the behalf of yourself not only goes against the Jewish Law (which Christianity orginates from) but also the universal Law which exist in the Old Testament or the Torah. Noting the verses about the Ark of the Covenant is hardly a justification for the veneration of Saints, and religious icons. |
Posted By: Patty
Date Posted: 11 June 2006 at 1:03pm
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Dear Israfil, I am not Jewish, I am Roman Catholic/Christian. We do not follow Jewish Law. We follow the new covenant of the New Testament. The old law was changed by Jesus' sacrifice on the cross. (For instance, we no longer offered a lamb as a sacrifice to God in repentence for our sins. There are many other things. I will need a little time to prepare to show you where we differ in our beliefs from the Jewish Law. I guess we just have to disagree as to how the Holy Mother and the Saints, etc., looked, but I do know they are historically accurate. Their statues and pictures were from the New Testament days....not the old. God's Peace, Patty ------------- Patty I don't know what the future holds....but I know who holds the future. |
Posted By: Patty
Date Posted: 11 June 2006 at 1:26pm
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Dear Aquinian, You posted this: "This connection is not ever-present; therefore, the Church is not infallible at all times." No, the Church is most certainly not infallible at all times. I think you know I am referring to the times when the Holy Father is speaking ex cathedra. When he is speaking ex cathedra he is preserved from error when he solemnly promulgates, or declares, to the Church a decision on faith or morals. This was what David had posted earlier regarding the dogma issued by Pope Paul VI on the subject of Lumen Gentium, which he proclaimed in November of 1964. This is one paragraph which Pope Paul stated regarding Mulims in this dogma: But the plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Moslems: these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind's judge on the last day. You stated that you did not always follow or believe these "decrees". This is a Church dogma, and the pope was speaking ex cathedra at the time.....therefore, for you to choose not to follow it is heresy. I believe you trying to be a good Catholic. But I have listened to many popes state the verse in Scripture where Jesus said "many sheep I have who are not of this fold"....and I know He meant this for people who worship in another faith than ours. You don't have to answer this, I'm just curious, but do you belong to one of several "organizations" out there now, such as Call to Action, Voice of the Faithful, CORPUS, etc.? Or, are you a laicized priest? Peace with you always! ------------- Patty I don't know what the future holds....but I know who holds the future. |
Posted By: amlhabibi2000
Date Posted: 11 June 2006 at 3:13pm
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Satan is just an excuse people use for their bad behavior, this creation does not exist except for in the imaginations. People use Satan all the time as their excuse for acting badlly when in truth it is their lack of good communication skills, anger management skills, parenting skills, relationship skills and their lack of understanding how to cope with stress and frustrations that is the real problem. There is not a magical being tempting anyone it is our own imaginations and ignorance of how to deal with life and the world. Sure we can act like the mythical creature but there is not a being creating the crisis in the world it is ourselves. ------------- Judgement day passes in the moment we decide something needs attention & we take positive action. Then there will be a great sorting out of people into groups, Inspired by Surah 99 Ayat 1-8 |
Posted By: Aquinian
Date Posted: 11 June 2006 at 5:34pm
How do we know when the Pope is infallible and fallible? Should we take his word for it? To address a more pressing point, could the pope directly contradict sacred scripture and still be infallible in his claims? Could the Pope say that those who do not eat of the body and drink of the blood can receive eternal life when Christ clearly opposes this statement with his own words? The purpose of the church is solely to propagate the Word. That is all the apostles did - they did not make new claims about the Virgin Mary or the equality of other faiths to the Christian faith. Call me a heretic, but I fail to suffer the Church's "infallibility" in the face of Christ's words in scripture. Just as the Vatican pressed that the earth was flat in the face of scientific reasoning that proved opposite, the Vatican presses this idea that the God of Islam is the same as that of Christianity when it is simply not true. I don't care whether the Pope has claimed it is - it is not, based on the words of Christ himself as I have argued. I would prefer to argue about the actual words of Christ rather than the church's infallibility. Jesus establishes the church (upon this rock I will build my church) but never mentions the infallible teachings of Peter. The Pope is a sinner like all of us and, though he spends his life in holy contemplation of God, I do not believe that he has any greater connection to God's ear than any other Christian. Seeing as how the first pope was Peter, the greatest denier of Christ, I fail to see any tradition of infallibility within the Holy See. Christ chose the least of his faithful apostles to begin the church. Now the Pope has become the greatest of the the faithful in the church, with expensive robes and extravagant living quarters. I love the Pope. I think he should be a leader for all Catholics and offer to them insights gained through a thorough examination of sacred scripture. He should make clear the doctrines of the church based solely on scripture and tradition. This idea that we can learn new things about Christ or Mary by listening to the pope's infallible communications with the Holy Spirit is hierarchical and certainly unintended by Jesus Christ. The Church does not encourage enough understanding of the Word. Unfortunately, that's where all understanding of Christ begins. |
Posted By: DavidC
Date Posted: 11 June 2006 at 5:36pm
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As much as I like discussing Christian theology, it's time for me to stop here because we are to relate to Islam. ------------- Christian; Wesleyan M.Div. |
Posted By: BMZ
Date Posted: 11 June 2006 at 5:42pm
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Brother Israfil, Thanks for the comment. Couldn't write more on that as it was late in the night but I will put forward some more thought on the Laws since the days of yore. Best Regards & Salaam Aalikum BMZ |
Posted By: Andalus
Date Posted: 11 June 2006 at 5:47pm
Your conclusion is fallacious. So now, any difference between the the Noachide law and the numerous laws in the Torah cannot be seen as such as long as one can find no "explicit" command affirming something when it was not denied! That thinking is problematic. Noah could eat pork. Moses could not. Noah was not told he could eat a pizza either, but this does not preculde eating pizza from his diet. So in your reasoning, Noah and Moses followed different Gds.
I am a Christian; therefore, I follow the rule that Jesus set forth - "It is not what you put into your mouth, but what comes out that will condemn you." You are going off on a tangent. The point of teh trhead is not about the issue of eating pork, but about the issue of Gd denying one body something and not denying it for another, and whther or not this constitues a different Gd.
What we are discussing is your methodology to conclude that one Gd is different from another "Gd". That you feel one example is less significant than that of images is irrelevant, what we have are two examples of Gd saying one thing to one people and a second thing to another. The notion of images based upon what was allowed for the Ark raises "interpretation" that 1) allows some forms of art in Judiasm based upon extending that incident (extending the evidence) which is hardly a solid case and 2) hardly allows one to construct statues and face them during the asking for intercession
Eating pork in this thread is an issue of deriving a conclusion. If Noah is allowed to eat it, and Moses is not, then if we follow your line of reasoning, they both worshiped different Gds. ------------- A feeling of discouragement when you slip up is a sure sign that you put your faith in deeds. -Ibn 'Ata'llah http://www.sunnipath.com http://www.sunniforum.com/forum/ http://www.pt-go.com/ |
Posted By: Andalus
Date Posted: 11 June 2006 at 5:49pm
I think satan just needs counseling, consultation, and education. ------------- A feeling of discouragement when you slip up is a sure sign that you put your faith in deeds. -Ibn 'Ata'llah http://www.sunnipath.com http://www.sunniforum.com/forum/ http://www.pt-go.com/ |
Posted By: Andalus
Date Posted: 11 June 2006 at 5:53pm
Assalam Aleikum. Yes, there is in fact a movement, though small, of people who are gentile who are "returning" to their convenant, and they call themselves "Noachides". My point to Aquanian was that the covenant between Gd and Moses and Noah were not identical, yet I am sure he has not problem concluding that Noah and Moses worshipped the same Gd. Thats the only point I was trying to make.
------------- A feeling of discouragement when you slip up is a sure sign that you put your faith in deeds. -Ibn 'Ata'llah http://www.sunnipath.com http://www.sunniforum.com/forum/ http://www.pt-go.com/ |
Posted By: amlhabibi2000
Date Posted: 11 June 2006 at 6:20pm
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Alaikoam Salam Andalus Your right if he exists that is what he needs Education, Counseling and Consultation. LOL I enjoyed your response! At least some one understands what I am trying to get acrossed in my threads. ------------- Judgement day passes in the moment we decide something needs attention & we take positive action. Then there will be a great sorting out of people into groups, Inspired by Surah 99 Ayat 1-8 |
Posted By: Israfil
Date Posted: 11 June 2006 at 6:28pm
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I guess we just have to disagree as to how the Holy Mother and the Saints, etc., looked, but I do know they are historically accurate. Patty well ok....... But we just have to agree to disagree... Brother BMZSP looming forward to your next response. |
Posted By: ak_m_f
Date Posted: 11 June 2006 at 7:13pm
If Satan really dosnt exist then why do people worship him? ever heard of Church of satan?
Then maybe people also use God as an excuse for everything that good happnes to them, maybe in reality its all your hardwork and intelliegence? If you deny Satan then you deny God.
Isnt God very much like a magical being? isnt what you cant understand through science is known as magic?
Ofcourse we are creating crisis. I think of person as an arsonist, he has the gasoline ( potential). Satan is like a Flame (wrong path). If you combine both then you burn something down. In an arsonist's case its usually the property. In Satans case he uses you, he makes you follow the wrong path, so you can do the work for him. in the end you end up burning in hell. |
Posted By: mariyah
Date Posted: 11 June 2006 at 7:33pm
From the old testament of the Bible of the Christians: Exodus 20 verse one: I am the Lord thy God, thou shalt not have any other gods before me: Isn't that one of the Ten Commandments that God gave to Moses? I was raised Catholic, and left because the faith disobeys this law, period. My mother was a coptic christian from what used to be Constantinople, now known as Instanbul. She later in life reverted to Islam after my father died and was happier than I have ever seen her. She even went on the hajj before she died at the age of 72. My Uncle escorted her to Mekkah. To me, this scripture states that you cannot pray to any other god or ask any other person or being to intercede for you. After I obtained my degree in education with the major of history, I know the truth of how the bible was made, how Jesus (pbuh)was voted to be "divine". If a person knows the truth and continues to say, "no, that is not it," and continues to follow his old traditions: Will God hold them accountable for being stubborn and disobedient? Who knows? We have the free agency and will to follow Him on the true path or not. I suggest you read the Bible and stop following the doctrine of man if you stay on the path, is your faith that of habit or faith? Peace be unto you.
------------- "Every good deed is charity whether you come to your brother's assistance or just greet him with a smile. |
Posted By: Patty
Date Posted: 12 June 2006 at 5:52am
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Dear Maryah, I will just state this briefly, that I DO most certainly read and study the Bible. I believe the Bible exactly, and Catholics certainly believe the 10 Commandments. We also believe that Jesus gave Peter the keys "to the Kingdom" .... as stated in the Bible, and told him that "what ever you loose on earth will be loosed in Heaven and whatever you bind on earth will be bound in Heaven"...this is from the Bible, is it not? We know that Jesus sent the Holy Spirit to the apostles/and to the pope to guide Him in his many decisions regarding ministering to the people who are the Church. Maryah, we have NO OTHER GODS BEFORE GOD. We honor our saints and the adore the Holy Mother as the Mother of Jesus, but we do not place ANYONE above God and we most certainly DO NOT PRAY TO ANY OTHER GOD. There is only ONE God, and every Catholic knows that. And for those from other religions who believe otherwise, they are sadly mistaken. We ask the saints to pray or intercede for us, and that is also biblical. If that were wrong, why would we ask other humans to "pray for my mother, etc." here on earth? As for Aquinian, he/she is NOT a Catholic in good standing, and does not believe as Catholics believe.....which is fine. Everyone is certainly free to believe whatever you decide in your heart is true. But I cannot stand to see someone who portrays themselves as Catholic to teach the exact opposite of my faith. Aquinian failed to answer my questions in regards to him being a member of one of the new heretical/dissident organizations which are outside the Church. It appears he is a member of one of these organizations. (It would be the same if someone came to this site and said they believe in the religion of Islam, and then went on to say many things which YOU, as a good muslim, know to be false.) Anyway, I'll let this thread go back to its original subject. Sorry for any inconvenience. God's Peace. ------------- Patty I don't know what the future holds....but I know who holds the future. |
Posted By: AnnieTwo
Date Posted: 12 June 2006 at 11:20am
I know the truth of how the bible was made, how Jesus (pbuh)was voted to be "divine". Jesus was not voted to be divine. If you are speaking of the Council of Nicea, this Council had nothing to do voting Jesus to be divine. That was established hundreds of years before 325AD in the first century. The Council was called because Arius said that Jesus was created, but nevertheless, he was still divine. The opposite side said that he wasn't created. The Council was called to decide HOW he was divine, not WHETHER he was divine. I pray to one God and one God only, creator of heaven and earth. Annie ------------- 14If you are reproached for the name of Christ, blessed are you, for the Spirit of glory and of God rests upon you. On their part He is blasphemed, but on your part He is glorified. 1 Peter 4 |
Posted By: Angela
Date Posted: 12 June 2006 at 1:38pm
Traditional Christians do not believe in 3 Gods, there is only ONE GOD. So to them they are following this commandment. That much I remember from my 25 years as a mainstream Christian. Only the heterodoxical Christians separate the Trinity into three different beings and even then, God is supreme and anything else is subordinate. |
Posted By: DavidC
Date Posted: 12 June 2006 at 2:10pm
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Does this sound like any graven images you know? 1Cor. 11:14 Does not nature itself teach you that if a man has long hair, it is a disgrace to him... ------------- Christian; Wesleyan M.Div. |
Posted By: BMZ
Date Posted: 13 June 2006 at 3:07am
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Brother Israfil, "Brother BMZSP looming forward to your next response." Didn't notice it the first time I read. "looming forward", that was a nice one. In fact, I am studying the Noahide Laws and the Mosaic Laws, once again. I am trying to correlate and establish two points: Why was there a shortfall of 3 in the Noahide Laws? Why was there a bonus of 3 for Moses? It is quite intriguing when we are told that Jesus took away a few or may be 3 or more but I am not sure! This subject will need further study. BMZ
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Posted By: BMZ
Date Posted: 13 June 2006 at 3:36am
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I enjoyed reading the Closing banquet in honour of the 250+++ quarrelling bishops: "CLOSING BANQUET The council came to an end on July 25 with a solemn banquet attended by the emperor. They had deliberated for nearly seven weeks, not only about the Arian heresy. An Arabic translation of the canons discussed at Nicea, found in the sixteenth century, shows that they debated on 84 subjects, ranging from the date of Easter (they set the day as the first Sunday, not coinciding with the Passover, after the first full moon following the vernal equinox) to determining whether the clergy could marry (the clergy were enjoined to marry before ordination, but not afterward). Now exhausted, the bishops prepared to make their way homeward. The last speeches had been made. There remained only the ceremonial leave-taking at the banquet, with the emperor sitting at a table in the midst of them. Constantine, stiff with purple, gold, and precious stones, was in good humor. He complimented Athanasius, gave presents to the bishops he favored, and at one point he summoned the unregenerate Bishop Acesius, who possessed a singular regard for the Novatian heresy, which held that only God had the power to pardon sins and that anyone who commits sin after baptism must be permanently refused Communion. Constantine reminded Acesius that the doctrine of the church was now finally established. Acesius made a long speech in defense of his puritan interpretation of the Scriptures. Constantine guffawed, "Ho, ho, Acesius! Now plant a ladder and climb up to heaven by yourself!" And sometime later, Constantine summoned the saintly Bishop Paphnutius and kissed the empty socket, and pressed his legs and arms to the paralyzed limbs, and he was especially gentle to all the other bishops who had suffered under the persecutions. Then the bishops went out through a line of imperial bodyguards with bared swords. |
Posted By: DavidC
Date Posted: 13 June 2006 at 3:42am
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Jesus did not "take away" anything from the law. What Jesus did was correct the Jewish people who followed only the letter of the law and not the spirit of the law. And what is a Noahide Law? Where does one find them? ------------- Christian; Wesleyan M.Div. |
Posted By: BMZ
Date Posted: 13 June 2006 at 4:46am
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David, "Jesus did not "take away" anything from the law." Agreed. I was trying to question the difference between 7 and 10 with a different approach. "What Jesus did was correct the Jewish people who followed only the letter of the law and not the spirit of the law." Agreed. This is a good link, David: http://www.ahavat-israel.com/am/goyim.php - http://www.ahavat-israel.com/am/goyim.php BMZ |
Posted By: Israfil
Date Posted: 15 June 2006 at 11:14am
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Salaam Surprised DavidC as a Christian you don't know this! Also Jews say that if a Gentile practices the Noachide Laws he too can attain a place in "the world to come." |
Posted By: Aquinian
Date Posted: 15 June 2006 at 6:16pm
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Not to be disrespectful, but this statement is false. Matthew 5:38 "You have heard that it was said, 'Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth.'[g] 39But I tell you, Do not resist an evil person." Christ directly contradicts Exodus 21:24, establishing a new law. In sum, taking away from the old law. Through his death, Christ becomes the paschal sacrifice, nullifying the former need for the passover rituals of sacrificing the unblemished lamb. He "takes away" the need to perform the passover. Christ does encourage people to live by the commandments, but it is undeniable that he establishes new laws. |
Posted By: BMZ
Date Posted: 15 June 2006 at 6:48pm
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I beg to differ, Aquinian. You wrote: ""Matthew 5:38 "You have heard that it was said, 'Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth.'[g] 39But I tell you, Do not resist an evil person."" Jesus himself is found in the NT, resisting all the evil persons through out his ministry. From you:"Through his death, Christ becomes the paschal sacrifice, nullifying the former need for the passover rituals of sacrificing the unblemished lamb. He "takes away" the need to perform the passover." That is not what Jesus taught or did. Paul, who was not taught by any disciples and claims to have learnt all direct from Jesus in his own visions, did carry out the purification and sacrifices according to the Old Law. It is right here in ACTS 21:17 Paul's Arrival at Jerusalem: Please read the entire 21:1 to 21:26 and mark this one: 26The next day Paul took the men and purified himself along with them. Then he went to the temple to give notice of the date when the days of purification would end and the offering would be made for each of them. All this after Jesus had gone? The Law stands. You see James and the elders got him to carry out the sacrifcial offering which Paul did willingly without any excuse. It also means Jesus never told him to stop offerings. I don't know how this glaring proof was left in ACTS! No one can take it out now!
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Posted By: DavidC
Date Posted: 16 June 2006 at 6:21am
You ae not being disrespectful, but you are being unnecessarily argumentative. I never said there were no new laws. This isn't a seminary, Aquinan. We are just simple people trying to explain our faiths to each other. Why not just keep it simple? ------------- Christian; Wesleyan M.Div. |
Posted By: Aquinian
Date Posted: 16 June 2006 at 1:45pm
The quote I offer from Matthew refers to Jesus' "turn the other cheek" message. He was saying that you should not resist evil done to you by acting recriprocally; that is, when someone hits you, you do good to them instead of hitting them. That flies in the face of hitting them back when they hit you, which is what Exodus tells us. Therefore, Jesus did establish a new law separate from that of the Jews. As for the passover, though the apostles and others may have still practiced their Jewish traditions, it is well understood in most christian theological circles that Jesus established a new tradition for a new church. This is why he chose the passover for the Last Supper. This is why he says "Do this in memory of me." During one of the most important jewish traditions commanded by God, Christ says to remember him when we celebrate the eucharist. He takes precedence over the passover. I have trouble understanding why Muslims can accept anything Jesus says because, through his own words, he blasphemes teachings of Allah. Rather than commemorate the passover with respect, Jesus turns all of the focus onto himself and his sacrifice. Luke 22:14 When the hour came, Jesus and his apostles reclined at the table. 15And he said to them, "I have eagerly desired to eat this Passover with you before I suffer. 16For I tell you, I will not eat it again until it finds fulfillment in the kingdom of God." 17After taking the cup, he gave thanks and said, "Take this and divide it among you. 18For I tell you I will not drink again of the fruit of the vine until the kingdom of God comes." 19And he took bread, gave thanks and broke it, and gave it to them, saying, "This is my body given for you; do this in remembrance of me." 20In the same way, after the supper he took the cup, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in my blood, which is poured out for you." bmzp, this is irrefutable. Christ made a new covenant in his blood. The passover was a part of the old covenant. The last supper establishes a new covenant with new laws written by Christ himself. DavidC, sorry for being so argumentative. I tend to stress the differences often and the similarities rarely. |
Posted By: Srya
Date Posted: 16 June 2006 at 8:53pm
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Salem all,
Salman said :Most of them prostrate to pictures and statues, and pray to them instead to Allah the Most High�
Most Christians....let me rephrase that because well for many reasons. Let me just stick with my Family's Church and the old Church I used to go to for now. Most Catholics will disagree to that there, which puzzles me because in my Catholic Family when they file into the church and when the other people of the congregation file in the church (Which means go in )they kneel (bend one knee) in front of the pue in which they will enter to eventually sit (The seat, bench) While looking up and doing Father, Son, Holy Spirit...Touch Forehead ,Touch heart, Touch one shoulder Touch other shoulder and while they are doing this kneeling, Father, Son and Holy Spirit and looking up what is on the wall? A Huge Cross with a Statue with what is supposed to be Jesus pbuh. Yet most will say 1 example "We are not praying or bowing to an object"
Yet, they are. What sadness me is most of the Christians will read this and get offended when I am just trying to show them how Satan is using the three example Salam listed in the beginning of this forum to draw them away from the truth while it is so obvious.
Oh, also I wanted to talk Little more about bowing by the pue (seat). I was thinking today even before I read this post about prostrating to ALLAH in Islam. How we bow completely to the ground with our forehead in complete submission. How we stand and then bend in complete submission. When we are offering Salat we sing our prayers in the original form of Arabic instead of speaking because our best voice is for ALLAH swt alone.
In a Catholic Church some prayers are sung too and in Latin, Bowing is sometimes but on the knees and in the pues, Sometimes Catholics are required periodically during the Mass to just stand in place while singing sometimes. The idea and in tension is their and good. But, offering praise not to GOD almighty alone creator of heaven and the earth. ALL this praise is being directed to a bronze skinny statue hanging in front of the Church. Yet, they are not offering praise only looking as they sing.?
What I am trying explain here but I feel that the job is not so good is, Sometimes for other people when you compare something familiar to what is not understood it often becomes obvious that maybe the gap is smaller then what they thought. What I am trying to do is make that connection to someone. I tried in the other forum on Idols. Maybe, Inshallah I can make someone think differently just even for a split second.
Okay folks let it pour....
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Posted By: BMZ
Date Posted: 16 June 2006 at 9:54pm
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Excellent, Suzanne. I know that Catholics do not worship that statue of Jesus. But the questions you raised are absolutely correct. In a place, where God is being worshipped, there should not be any image or any graven image or a sculpture. Hanging up Jesus on Cross before the eyes of all worshippers, may indicate worship of Jesus. I have always wondered who really is in the mind of Christians when they worship in the Church, Jesus or God Almighty? When we pray and offer Salaat, only God Almighty is in our mind which shows what Jesus really wanted people to do, that is, constant devotion to God Almighty only and to worship and love God Almighty with all heart, all mind and all soul. No one can serve two masters with the same amount of love and affection. Could you please tell me from your own past experience, Suzzane? Who was it at that time when you were a Catholic Christian? God Almighty or Jesus? An answer would be highly appreciated. Thanks for the insight & Best Regards Salaam Alaikum BMZ |
Posted By: DavidC
Date Posted: 16 June 2006 at 10:00pm
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C'mon. When you prostrate yourself at jummah is Satan working to get you to idolize the prayer leader? What about that black stone in the Ka'aba? Do you pray to it 5X a day? Really, Suzanne. This is just silly. Even the most Islamophobic Christians would not make that kind of reach. Rituals and reminders are part of every successful religion. ------------- Christian; Wesleyan M.Div. |
Posted By: Srya
Date Posted: 16 June 2006 at 11:14pm
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David,
When we do prostrate yeah Satan is working to get us. How? One example Making us think of other things in our daily lives while we are reciting prayers and not paying attention to what we are saying just spouting out. Sort of like when you do something so many times you can do it without thinking twice, no meaning. I want to stay on the idol example here for now I just wanted to answer you briefly.But, as far as when we prostrate our self at jummah (since you gave this example I will stick to it) we do not have a statue or picture in front of us as we are doing it. Why? All idols.
That is the point.
Yes, you are right when we do Prostrate 5x a day (More for some if they want) we are directing toward the Ka'aba ; and No we do not pray to IT 5 times a day. The direction. Direction toward the east. Where all 3 Religions started.
Yes, you are right every religion has rituals and reminders as you said. A part of every successful religion.
The difference is YOU, ME, We do not know what JESUS pbuh looks like.Yet, most Christians when they pray have a picture (there are many choose one) in their minds from an image, statue, a card are a few examples ......while they are praying. Or facing a statue as a "Reminder" hanging in Church that is supposed to represent Jesus pbuh.
Please explain to me how this is not a form of worshiping idols? Because is it not an Image?
Salem Bmzsp,
You asked:Who was it at that time when you were a Catholic Christian? God Almighty or Jesus?
When I would pray I would have an outline of Jesus pbuh in my head and then pray to GOD. Because, I was taught back then that you pray to GOD thru Jesus pbuh. Because it was taught that Jesus was GOD in the living form.
I hope inshallah the ones who are on this website trying to prove wrong will see the truth. Amen
The difference for me is not to say ah ha got ya! Or, along those lines of you are wrong, etc etc. I am truly wanting people to see what it is that drives them to worship what GOD almighty has created instead of GOD almighty himself which there are no images of be it statue or picture.
Thanks for your time.
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Posted By: DavidC
Date Posted: 17 June 2006 at 12:14am
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Hi Suzanne, I hope you appreciated the sarcasm in my post. If you understand that Christians do not worship objects that is my only concern. Feel free to speculate on the metaphysical manipulations of Christians, satanic or otherwise. I will try to clarify any notions that may leave an inaccurate picture of Christian belief, but it is against my principles to undermine anyone's faith in God, so I shall not counter in kind. ------------- Christian; Wesleyan M.Div. |
Posted By: Srya
Date Posted: 17 June 2006 at 12:18am
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Oh, I wanted to mention something else or again just talk about it more. The three things I listed in my first post when I was taking about the three ways that Satan helps to devert from the truth was what Salman had listed: He manipulated them with regards to Allah, the Exalted and Most High. Satan is not what is always shown as a cartoon or in moves....example:Red with horns and a long tail with a cape and pitch fork. Satan comes to us with our eyes,ears, thoughts, actions. How is that on the lines of someone who is Islamiphobic Christian? I am guessing you read and was along the lines of ...I am going to wing it just stay with me,,,, or try to anyways here goes ..."Satan, how obsurd I worship the 1 and only GOD how is Satan this and that" When someone is praying to GOD the almighty and is thinking what they believe Jesus pbuh looks like....is in essance a form of worshiping and idol. It is okay to those who do this because it is all in a way of good and truth...praying etc...Right? No ,it is not in a good way. Satan makes those ones feel that it is okay because Jesus pbuh was a Prophet of GOD and thinking of him is okay. Even though they don't know what he looks like. It is still okay to them. Not a form of worshiping an image? The thoughts are from Satan, that is what I meant. Good night all |
Posted By: Patty
Date Posted: 17 June 2006 at 11:39am
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Aquinian, very good post! Here is another very important message which Jesus Himself spoke in John 6:48-68: "I am the bread of life. Your ancestors ate the manna in the desert, but they died; this is the bread that comes down from heaven so that one may eat it and not die. I am the living bread that came down from heaven; whoever eats this bread will live forever; and the bread that I will give is my flesh for the life of the world." The Jews quarreled among themselves, saying, "How can this man give us (his) flesh to eat?" Jesus said to them, "Amen, amen, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you do not have life within you. Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him on the last day." Dear Suzanne, I can't believe you were ever a Baptised Catholic. There are FAR too many inaccuracies in your statements as to what Catholic, do, believe, and how we feel. They are quite simply, INCORRECT. We genuflect (remember that word) out of respect for Jesus whom we know is in the Tabernacle (remember). We bless ourselves in respect and honor of the Holy Trinity. We pray whatever we feel like praying when we enter the pew and kneel. Some people look up at the Crucifix, others have their head bowed downward. It's up to the person. We DO NOT WORSHIP THE CRUCIFIX!!!!!!!!! We look at it to remind us of the great suffering Jesus endured for the unworthy and wretch sinners such as me. We rarely sing in Latin, although I wish we did more, because it is beautiful! We sing in Latin at times because so many of the long dead saints wrote the songs in Latin back in the early centuries. There is much, much more I want to say to you, my Dear Suzanne....but I have to run some errands. I will be back. It seems to me that from the way your write, someone has really done a number on you...gotten into your head. I hate that!!! I just cannot see you as Catholic. If you really were at one time, I apologize....but you do NOT write like any former Catholic, and you are horribly inaccurate in far too many regards. Peace to you always! ------------- Patty I don't know what the future holds....but I know who holds the future. |
Posted By: Israfil
Date Posted: 17 June 2006 at 3:15pm
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Salaam, I honestly feel that most Christians, Caholics or those who are adherents to the Christian faith truly worship God. I understand that there are those who worship blindly, and ignorantly but for the most part it all leads to God. Without mentioning Islam if I said I worshiped the Lord of the Universe to a priest in his mind it is obviously God. Now only when we discuss the specifics in the nature of God such as his manifestation and so forth then we may come to differences. However Christianity is not manipulated by Satan but by man. Any deviation among the people is because of human error not because of Satan. If Satan caused so many errors in mankind how do we discern the particular actions of man from Satan? We cannot. As Allah says in the Qur'an that all good comes from his and evil come from mankind. In regards to the whole statue isue although I do believe that SOME Catholics venerate the saints image in their cathedrals I firmly believe that they are expressing their devotion to God through seeking an intermediary. I see this as the symbolic gesture odf not feeling worthy enough to directly communicate with God and therefore on the behalf of the human they seek the saints. As it was explained to me since the Saints are with God in the Empyrean they can be sought out as intermediaries on the behalf of those who invoke them in prayer. However invoking those [Saints] in prayer according to some Catholics is not the same thing as invoking God. In some Catholic sermons some priest will mention the name of a a saint and say "[Saint's Name] pray for" or For example [Saint John the Baptist] pray for us etc. One thing I admire about Cathedrals is that the images are indeed beautific although perhaps inaccurate historically I do feel a spiritual presence there. I once prayed in a Cathedral and luckily for me the east direction I was praying in did not have any of the icons in front of me I still felt the presence of God there nonetheless. |
Posted By: Patty
Date Posted: 17 June 2006 at 7:06pm
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Beautiful, Israfil. Peace be with you..... ------------- Patty I don't know what the future holds....but I know who holds the future. |
Posted By: Srya
Date Posted: 17 June 2006 at 10:09pm
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Patty, You are entitled to your opinion about me either by what you assume or your comments on what I posted or how you interpret what I post all is the same, an opinion. If it were someone else than you I maybe would counter or if the base of your post was not entirely an opinion of your view on me I would counter. The only reason why I have choose not to for you is based on this......from the thread that you started on Idols. Which I posted a couple times there. After all what I posted to you; You submitted a painting of Mothers of the Sea or something. Um, and that is all that I am going to say about that. But, Hemdeallah you are still here. Bess. |
Posted By: BMZ
Date Posted: 18 June 2006 at 3:16am
That was beautifully said, Israfil. Good post. 
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Posted By: Patty
Date Posted: 18 June 2006 at 6:02am
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My dear Suzanne, you posted this: "You submitted a painting of Mothers of the Sea or something." Yes, a beautiful icon painting by my husband, the Maris Stella. If you feel so strongly against artistic works and the sinfulness of appreciating their beauty, perhaps it is a form of idolatry to have the avatar posted at your name?? Are you worshipping that avatar in some way by showing it to the world? Just a thought. God's Peace. ------------- Patty I don't know what the future holds....but I know who holds the future. |
Posted By: Aquinian
Date Posted: 18 June 2006 at 6:26am
From what little I know, I believe that Muslim art has always utilized more designs and abstractions rather than modeling real life. Faces are off limits, if I am correct. I would be interested in knowing what type of art is allowable in Islam though. |
Posted By: Patty
Date Posted: 18 June 2006 at 4:37pm
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Dear Israfil, you stated this: "I see this as the symbolic gesture odf not feeling worthy enough to directly communicate with God and therefore on the behalf of the human they seek the saints." No, that's not the way it is. I pray to God all the time. Do you know of the Our Father? "Our Father, who art in Heaven, Hallowed be Thy name".... We defininitely believe in praying to God and do it regularly. Peace to you.
------------- Patty I don't know what the future holds....but I know who holds the future. |
Posted By: Israfil
Date Posted: 18 June 2006 at 7:30pm
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Then forgive me for any inaccuracy on my behalf! I do believe that Catholics do worship God in their own way of course! |
Posted By: Patty
Date Posted: 18 June 2006 at 7:33pm
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No problem, Israfil.....I only wanted to clarify this issue. Peace to You! ------------- Patty I don't know what the future holds....but I know who holds the future. |
Posted By: Israfil
Date Posted: 18 June 2006 at 7:37pm
| `Ameen |