Salaam,

I hope this find all of you well. I wanted to make a seperate topic because I didn't want to take away from Moona's original question and if I contributed to that I apologize to sister Moona. I hope you (Muslimah's and people of the forum) will read clearly and respond to me in accordance of my words here rather interpret what you may think I'm referring to. Let me first say that there should be no circular explanations here in regards to the duties of men. I read the Qur'an serveral times over and have studied it in school and on my own personal time so I'm quite aware of the iplications of 'important verses' this including the duties of men.

My Position

I believe that a Muslim man in the faith of Islam has one of the greatest duties which is to be the provider of his family. He is the protector and trustee of his wife and partner and father of his children. He, like the wife is the example is which the children will see as models and will feed of the knowledge that he (the father) will teach them. With respect to this I understand the Qur'an is clear on the specific duties of men and although this is aparrent it is not always possible in every case.

For instance I noticed none of you members ever used an example of a Muslim Law Enforcement official either you guys don't know any or perhaps don't truly understand. I'm in a unique position here. I'm going to be done with the Academy soon and already have a station where I will be working. It is in my future at the station I will be working almost 50-55 hours per week this including overtime because I'm a "rookie" because rookies normally don't have "say so's" on what hours they want to work even with aset schedule. This is usually the first 6 months because I'm in probation and plus I need to pass my requirements as a rookie with several of my TO's (Training Officer).

This is really not the point because I know several guys now in the Academy who have wives at home and they have already made planning arrangements so this is not the issue, the issue is the independence of a woman. Let me be clear that I think the coment made by sister Mishmish when she said I wouldn' except a woman who believes its her right to stay at home is wrong. First off any good woman regardless what religion understands that if she loves her husband there would be some grounds for compromise first off. I want a woman who understands the dangers of my job. If I ever become incapacited or killed what will my wife do?

I want you guys to contemplate rather react emotionally and thump me over the head with Qur'an for a moment. Let us assume I have children and we live in a house and our mortage payments are $2500 per/month plus other expenses and let's say my wife does work to try to support her children what will she do? She will obviously work but she will have a difficult time because she is not only supporting herself, but the children as well as the house. She could move of course but even still the road to stability will be difficult. What I'm saying here is that I want a woman who understands herself and her capbilities but I also want a woman who also understands and knows that my life is temporal and its a possibility I may not come home.

This is not some job where there is no immediate threat like a Pharmecutical Tech, or a sit at home Mother or a Banker. I'm literally putting my life on the line to save each and every one of you (those in California at least) every single day. I need a woman to understand that and accept that reality. This is why I would want my wife to work because in the event that happens she can atleast manage the financial aspect and have the means to manage herself.

I know some of you would like to use the duties of men in accordance to the Qur'an to prove a point to me. No need. There are things in the Qur'an that we should do, must do and some we cannot always do. For instance we should judge judge each other on piety not culture, we must believe in God's Oneness but we don't always work our life around God's mandate on the duties of a Muslim family.

I feel some of the women here thumb their noses at me at the fact that I believe this. Well if women in Islam cannot understand my point then that is why I may feel that maybe being with a Muslim woman is not in my destiny. The hard part about finding good people is that there are not a lot and I don't feel like someone lecturing e about what I should do especially when my job is so dangerous and my life is always at an immediate threat. None of you will go what I will go through so in actuality, none of you can basically tell me "Women have this and that right and as a man I should understand that."

I feel that it would selfishness on a woman's aspect to think first about herself and what she can get out of a marriage rather than think about "family." It's funny that non-muslim women are on the same page as I am with this respect as well as some Muslim women I know. Some Muslim women do work because they understand that even to manage a simple lifestyle here is difficult. Some work because of cultural reasons because their families push them to be doctors or lawyers. Not like what Mishmish says "because they want to." Some Muslim women work because as immigrants their community forbade them to work.

One reality of our religion is that it is very much patriarchal and very much culturally influenced. but noting these particulars would be, besides the point. I'm not saying a woman should work hard hard and hard like me but at least even in partial, contribute financially. Not only does this teach independence (trust me in my life as of now I know some women raised to be dependent so not all women understand independence) but it also teaches interdependence because in relationships I feel that both the man and the woman should be equal partners. I hope you guys understand my position here and not may sweeping judgements in thinking that I think women should do this opr that but understand my opinion in respec with my career.

I'd like to here a reasonable argument from any of you women and men since many of you have opinions about what I should do. Knowing about my job now do you think I should let a woman stay home? If so, why? If not why? Knowing my situation as a cop do you think I'm wrong to believe this? I know to some of you I'm a "little brother" and whatever and to that I'm sure my respect level is low but honestly I'd like to hear (or in this case read) what you have to say.

Assalamu Alaikum Brother Israfil:

"Let me be clear that I think the coment made by sister Mishmish when she said I wouldn' except a woman who believes its her right to stay at home is wrong."

I simply responded to what you wrote here: 

" I personally don't like it when some sisters ( not you in particular) say "It's my right to stay at home and so be it"

My reaction is like What!"

You have stated again and again that you will probably not marry a Muslimah because they hold this belief. In fact, you wrote it again in the above post:

"Well if women in Islam cannot understand my point then that is why I may feel that maybe being with a Muslim woman is not in my destiny."

Many people have dangerous jobs. For many Muslims, just living where they live: Iraq, Afghanistan, Sudan, Somalia, Palestine, is extremely dangerous. Death can come upon anyone at any time.

4:78 Wherever you may be, death will overtake you - even though you be in towers raised high. "Yet, when a good thing happens to them, some [people] say, "This is from God," whereas when evil befalls them, they say, "This is from thee [O fellow­man]!� <>Asad(4,92)

Brother, if your job is so dangerous and you feel that your wife has to work because of this, and to be prepared in case something happens to you, then why would you want to have a family? What if something did happen to you and your wife would be left alone to raise the children? She would only have one income, the very thing you feel you have to avoid. How could she make it alone with children on one income if you and she can not make it on one income?

Wa Salaam

I'm glad you commented on those particulars, allow to explain in detail.

Mishmish your comments will be in bold:

Accoridng to my statement I was referring to women you say that it was their right to stay home. I made this comment in conjuction to my original thought in light of when I choose a mate. I should have been more distinctively clear in what actually I was referring to. If I'm choosing a Muslimah and let's say I told her my situation such as my career and let's say I'm looking for someone who is a professional like myself who can also contribute to the household financially. Given that knowledge if her only answer to that is "It is my right to stay home" I am going to react in opposition to that.

Especially if I'm telling you that what I'm, making cannot sustain two people especially if one is staying home. Well, actually my job can sustain two people but it would really be difficult. Rather, I'd avoid that by having a two party household working to a point where we both are financially secure and able to plan having additonal members to the family. I don't want to marry a woman who just wants to sit around the house only to household duties. I want an equal contributing member because I feel my wife is my equal. Now, we we get to a point where we are financially secure then if she wants we can both plan on how we can accomodate each other.

Many people have dangerous jobs. For many Muslims, just living where they live: Iraq, Afghanistan, Sudan, Somalia, Palestine, is extremely dangerous. Death can come upon anyone at any time.

You said:

>>>Many people have dangerous jobs. For many Muslims, just living where they live: Iraq, Afghanistan, Sudan, Somalia, Palestine, is extremely dangerous. Death can come upon anyone at any time. <<<<

Many people have dangerous jobs. For many Muslims, just living where they live: Iraq, Afghanistan, Sudan, Somalia, Palestine, is extremely dangerous. Death can come upon anyone at any time.

That is true there are many people that live in dangerous environments and their lives are at risk there is no quarrel here. The difference I can only note that although their environement is dangerous this is a situation some cannot control, whereas in my profession I look for danger and embrace because I have the duty to contain these dangers.

Sister you said:

>>>>Brother, if your job is so dangerous and you feel that your wife has to work because of this, and to be prepared in case something happens to you, then why would you want to have a family? What if something did happen to you and your wife would be left alone to raise the children? She would only have one income, the very thing you feel you have to avoid. How could she make it alone with children on one income if you and she can not make it on one income? <<<<<

Sister that is the whole point not only is it a learning experience but I also want a woman to not be dependent on me in the event that something happens to me. Again the type of person I'm choosing is someone who is a professional like myself, someone who has a college education and someone who has a specialty in something that way she has no problem pulling in a salary (or wage) in that field and has the ability to bring in a supplimental income. This is why I said that I'm looking for a woman who understands these things. If a woman whom I'm seeking out is capable of love then she is also capable of understanding that there is the possibility I cannot provide for her.

It is best that a womn can be independent financially then rather than struggle later. Trust me she would have a harder time later if she didnt work than she did if she did work. At least while working she can make financially arrangements for herself and the children than if she did if she wasn't working at all. True a woman in a incident where the husband is incapcitated can plan financially arrangements but depending on the situation it would be a lot difficult. Some may choose to take out loans or depend on people. I would hope that isn't the case for my wife. I would hope as a professional she would not need that. She would be emotionally strong enough to financially plan just in case this happens. You aks how can she make it alone on one income if I feel that we both cannot live off my income?

First off I believe I noited the type of individual I'm looking for so that should answer your question. First off my mother was a single parent with me who had two jobs and raised us. She evntually got her own busniess and made really good money so any woman saying that they couldn't is a weak woman in my opinion. There are many like my mother who have worked and made good living by themselves. What my mother has missed out is a man who contributed equally. If she had one whop worked as hard and was as good of a person as she was she wouldn't have had to struggle. That is my point.....Eventually she would be able to plan her life and relax and stay home rather struggle like she did....That is my point.

Amah you may feel that I "want" my wife to work as wrong but that is how I feel. my wants are not necessarily bad and obviously they aren't because none of you gave a logical explanation to why it maybe bad so I assume what you are commenting on is me as a man who desires someone to be my equal. What the companions of the prophets went through was a different society. I cannot say it was the best society because we don't have a historical record of every society in human existence and even so, every society is different as the society of today is different. How they lived was a lot different than how we lived. So comparing how they lived then is very difficult in comparison to living arrangements. Sister Amah there is no difference in my reasons as you falsely claim. They are the same. I said I want my wife to work because it allows not only a supportive supplimental income but also she is not dependent on me because in the event that I become incapcitated or I die she is already working and able to financially plan how she will be able to survive without me....Honestly my reason makes all the best sense in the world according to my environement here in Southern California. I hope my clarification helps.

As-Salaam Alaiukum,

Israfil, I understand what you are saying.  My cousin is also a cop in California.  Two years ago he got into a gunfight with a criminal, and my cousin shot the criminal.  All of us was worried.  I mean he could've been shot and killed.  So I understand your point.  But, if you are concerned about how your future wife will handle herself financially you can set up some kind of fund that can help your wife financially if something were to happen to you.  I know that the money may not last forever but at least it will give her a little boost.  I know having life insurance is one good way.  My cousin is doing this for his wife and children.  His wife is a stay at home mother for now, but if something were to happen to him "TODAY" she does have something to fall back on.  She can go back to teaching school again.  She was a school teacher before she had her third child two years ago and decided to take a little break.  So I would just ask around.  I know the police department offer good benefits so I would just ask around.  Plus you are still young.  At least you have a chance to move around in the department, and make more money. Don't worry so much.  Just pray to Allah that he will provide for you, your future wife and children.

Hakeema  

Assalamu Alaikum:

Women don't have to work to have a fulfilling, independent life. Having a full time career can actually keep you from fulfilling many of your goals in life.

I understand what you are saying Brother Israfil. You are looking for a wife that can take care of herself and any children you may have on her own. But if you expect that of your wife, shouldn't she expect that of you? Shouldn't you expect that of yourself?

Besides, what if you get married, have children, and your wife were to die? What would you do then? You'd have yourself, children, and only one income.

As' Salaamu Alaikum,

I believe Arabian Knight is on to something. first off let me define that independence is not something that is defined by financial gain, but by the responsibility of the individual who is NOT dependent on another person. Now in the case with marriage I don't mind my wife being dependent on me for emotional support. i don't mind her staying home. however my point is, is that part of getting married and doing marriage planning starts with communication. My point is that any woman I will be involved with for the rest of my life must first understand me as a person.

she must also understand my duties as a Peace Officer and must respect the fact that I am risking my life. I know some women may say that women may understan dthat but to th ralistic standpoint some women don't. I know Muslim women are bent on acting on thir 'rights' I'm acting on reality. the reality is that in any household in California there are some struggle. Even if you financially plan your situation I myself am not at any point in planning and putting money aside for my wife to stay home.

First off that shouldn't even be in the mind of a woman. Her first goal is to marry me and to love and cherish me as I will her. i know many of you say you understand this and that but none of you have responded in a practical manner. Unless you live in this environment and understand the struggles some people go through you cannot really say you understand although I appreciate the advice. What if my wife dies? I would do exactly the same thing I would expect my wife do in the evnt of my absence. Take care of herself and move on.

Again, not all muslim women are born independent. Some of the attitudes are cultural and sometimes women are not breed to be sovereign entities of men I hope you all know that.

According to The Quran (from what I understand) a woman is not required to earn money to help support the household.

From my take on the discussion there is the �ideal� and the practical realities of life. None of us know what the future holds for each of us. One of us could die tomorrow. How many people are married and face that uncertain reality of what will happen to the family if one spouse dies, gets a terrible illness or be comes incapacitated for some reason.

The reality for MANY women throughout the world is that they are very dependent upon others. How many women stay with their abusive spouse for economic reasons? Happens all the time. In addition to education people need practical job skills. What happened here in west is women who are married, stayed at home, took care of kids. Husband up and left them in their mid-life crisis. These women were in BIG trouble. They suddenly found themselves without either education, job experience or both. Their options were extremely limited. They often end up in poverty. That is why the big push for women to be more economically capable of taking care of themselves. Yes working at home and taking care of your family is wonderful and important. The reality is that the rest of the world does not see it that way. Of course it is not right. But that is the way it is.

I remember reading this heart-wrenching story of this woman, stay at home woman. She is from Afganistan living as a refugee in Pakistan. Her husband lost his legs in the war. She had no means to support her family.  What must that sense of helplessness be like?

I think that wanting your wife to be able to be better take care of herself in a case of emergency is a great thing.  This is one way to, in the long run, help your wife. Is to not allow her to be stuck. Yes having a stockpile of money is a great thing and not always possible. Education and job skills are the best security in this day and age. Unless you are extremely wealthy of course�

Wanting to live a decent comfortable life is not a bad thing. Each family must determine what that means to them. It may then require that you hold off having kids for a bit. Or maybe not having any kids (if both agree). You should definitely find someone who shares the same goals you do. Many women in states would like to find someone who wants their spouse to work. You just need to find a strong woman. Not everyone could handle being the wife of a police officer. Others do fine.

Just find a good woman that meets your needs and you meet hers.

Finding a wife/husband that shares your dreams and wishes for the family is very important Israfil.  But, you shouldn't look down on a woman because she wants to be at home with her children. 

I would like to make an example of my mother.  She chose to be a stay at home mother.  She spent a good portion of her day playing with us as kids, reading to us, teaching us our letters and numbers. (by Us, I mean my sister and I)  We did not have cable, only 3 stations that came in on the rabbit ears.  I remember doing crafts with her and helping her around the house before my father came home.  Picking up our toys and such. 

When my brother came along, there were many changes.  My father bought a bigger house, we had more chores.  But, he could still afford to make all the payments himself.  He was Union and had great insurance.  Then he fell while working on the Pittsburgh Children's Hospital.  His injury robbed the family of his very good income.  He went on disability for about 18 months.  During this time, My mother stepped out of the house and took over the duty of the employed.  My father did what he could around the house, but he never played the learning games with my brother that had been done for my sister and I.  He helped potty train my brother and I took over the heavy chores of cutting grass and carting laundry up and down the stairs.  The family worked together as a unit. 

When my father returned to work for the insurance company he works for, there was a lot of debt.  My mother and father realized they would not be able to pay for my education without her working.  So, she went to school and became a nurse.  This too required alot of sacrifice, but my father worked long hours, so the majority of the housework fell to us children.

Now, the point of the story.  I graduated 7th in my high school class, my sister was in the top 20 of hers.  My brother almost did not graduate.  He could barely read an adult novel at age 15, where my sister and I were reading adult books by age 10.  My sister and I attended college.  My brother did not and will not.  My sister and I hold professional jobs.  My brother is working in a factory.  My sister and I are deeply spiritual people.  My brother hasn't seen the inside of a church (save weddings and funerals) in 10 years. 

Why????  I fully and wholeheartedly believe its because Cristy and I had a mother, at home with us during those crucial years and Tim did not.  My mother did what was necessary for the family, when it was needed she left the home and entered the work place, however, there was one member of the family that suffered.  My baby brother.  Had no accident happened with my father, no debt would have mounted.  All would have been fine.  We could not have foreseen the events of that fall in 1989.  But, that three year old on the floor was not part of the decision making process and his voice was never heard.

You want your wife to work.  That's good, what it seems is you want her to be able to step up to the plate like my mother did.  You'll be working long hours like my father.  You won't be able to do what my mother did for us.  So, I want you to listen in your heart to the voice of the 3 year old on the floor in 1989.  Or more likely the 20 year old young man who's lost, in 2006.  Think about your own sons and wonder if its better to have a wife willing to work but doesn't, or a wife who's required to work but doesn't need to do it.

Happiness isn't a 5 bedroom house in the burbs, two new cars and a boat. 

Happiness is spending Saturday at the Zoo with your dad, mom and siblings.  Or having a picnic on Sunday on the shore of a lake.  Or reading a scary book by candle light when the power goes out.  Or the first time your mother goes out and leaves all the kids alone with father, they conspire to make her laugh and when she walks through the door, father is tied to the chair and the children are dancing around him like little indians. 

Here is the problem that reoccurs here with statements like:

>>>>Finding a wife/husband that shares your dreams and wishes for the family is very important Israfil.  But, you shouldn't look down on a woman because she wants to be at home with her children.<<<<<

or

>>>>Happiness isn't a 5 bedroom house in the burbs, two new cars and a boat. <<<<

Most of what you guys wrote are good but I think a lot of you before even reading my comments have a pre-conceived notion on what I believe. First before responding to me please read entirely what I'm saying! The reason I'm saying this is because people keep responding to me in the matter that all I care about is money and that is not the case. True I want a woman to work and support the family because I believe relationships are 50/50 sorry for thinking like a practical American! I apologize for not being conservative but frankly any professional woman would say that there is nothing wrong with a 50/50 relationship. There are plenty of individuals here in California that work and take care of their children so what you guys are saying are not universal truths but subjective experiences which are equally fine.

First off Angela, I never onced said in any statement here that I said "I looked down on a woman working" again read my statements before you falsely put words in my mouth. Guys one thing about me is that I find it annoying that yoiu over look what I say then assume how I think. As Sister Herjihad correctly statements even if I met a woman who was broke if she is a decent human with a good head on her shoulders and had some ambition in life I would marry her. I'm merely commenting partially on the economical standpoint. Women should stand on their own. The world today women aren't dependent on men comments supporting this are in relation to women overseas not in the States.

There are more women owning their own fortune 500 companies. There are women her ein law enforcement there are women in the work force. At least in partial a woman who works would understand what I'm going through at work rather a stay at home mom who only knows household duties and kids. That is my opinion. Again nothing wrong with stay at home moms but if I plan to marry I want a woman who can at least PARTIALLY contribute. So please ladies have respect for me and read my entire statement without assuming what I believe.

50/50 is a matter of opinion.  Yes, there are plenty of women who work and raise families....but look at the family unit.  No family meals, no time together.  Kids are glued to the TV, Xbox, or computer.  Kids are getting into drugs, having premarital sex and gangs.  With both parents out of the house for a 8 hour work days plus commuting time, this leaves most kids at daycare, babysitters and/or unattended several hours in a day.

The 50/50 relationship in America is actually hurting families.  Its not about traditional vs modern or religious vs reality.  The reality is that our children are suffering and its because they do not have the personal attention they require to blossom. 

I spent a large portion of my life as a "feminist", I am still very much a feminist when it comes to certain things.  I am in no way in favor of the sort of life that is forced on women in many countries.  I think you are also guilty of what your accusing us of doing.  You aren't seeing what we are saying. 

Many of us are speaking from experience Israfil.  I know you are young and there is much in your life you are looking forward to being able to do.  I just want you to try very hard to look at both sides of the issue and don't reject the "traditional" family set up because you're a modern american.

I know you are someone who trusts experts.  Perhaps you should do some research on child development in both types of households?

Assalamu Alaikum:

50/50 relationship? Now who's not being realistic? Even when women work outside the home, they are still primarily responsible for taking care of the home and the children. I don't know anyone in a relationship where both spouses work and the man does 50% of the housework and child rearing.

Once again, the point here is that Islamically the woman is not required to work or to help with the financial support. You can choose to live however you want, and you can choose to marry a woman who wants to work, but that doesn't change the Word of Allah.

Assalamu Alaikum Jenni:

I never said a woman was required to cook and clean. If women choose to do so, that is up to them. Just as it is up to them if they choose to work outside the home. But Islamically they are not required to do so.

As far as becoming an imbecile or being bored to death because you do not work outside the home, that can only happen if you let it.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/12888599/site/newsweek/ - http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/12888599/site/newsweek/

I found this just a few minutes ago, kinda relevant.

50/50 relationship? Now who's not being realistic? Even when women work outside the home, they are still primarily responsible for taking care of the home and the children. I don't know anyone in a relationship where both spouses work and the man does 50% of the housework and child rearing.

To what information are you basing this one on. If its 50/50 that mans both the husband and the wife are sharing the duties including takin care of children which is what I want to do. My old supervisor who waited 6 years to hava child took care of his kid. Went to work in the day and took care of the child at night.  That is 50/50. He understands that they have to work to provide for another life. You guys keep using the "Can't change the word of Allah" I'm not saying that I'm rying to, just showing you my position.

Angela, I'm 24 yes I'm young in comparison to you old folk! you guys always bring that up to me and that is fine. Because I'm younger than you doesn't mean I'm not listening to you. Many of you are making good points and I'm considering them, however a lot of what you guys are saying well some of them are not realistic to my situation. But thank you for the advice nonetheless\

Assalamu Alaikum:

Well, if you can find a man that will do half of everything, keep him because they are kind of rare...

Working Women Do The Chores, Too

Israfil,

I'm glad you are at least considering what we are saying.  I wish I had listened a bit more over the years.   I certainly would be better off.

Salaam,

I believe that each of our situations are different. I cannot speak for neither of the ladies who responded her regarding what their husbands do, or how they should act. I'm merely speaking for myself and what I think right now is appropriate. Let me say here I do keep seeing a pattern from some of you because you all tend to use my age as an example from what it seems of my lack of knowledge. However if you read past I've noted serveral cases where I "observed" in this case my mother in how hard she worked. I lived in a single parent household where my mother worked full time and yet, still spent quality time with me.

I feel that I would have received twice as much if my father was around 24/7 but realistically that wasn't the case. Perhaps our situations differ and according to these situations the duties change. I told you the reasons why I want a wife to work but I never told the resons why I want a wife. The reason I want a wife at this point is because number one I'm mature. I feel that I've reached somewhat of a pennicle in my life at this point, as a professional and that I am able to maintain a household. I believe every man who is a professional and who is at a mature point in their life deserves a good woman.

Let me first note as I would disagree with Jenni that there are equally bad of women out there are there are bad men. Yes I did learn from a woman but all women cannot teach men, that is the extreme feminist view and its false. My mother never taught me how to be a man, unfortunately I learned on my own. That is one of the things she did say. Since men and women are biologically and mentally different one cannot teach the other about themselves.

These roles are filled with both parties involved such as in my case, what I didn't have, a father. My father and I do every so often establish contact but if he was ever the man I am now I would be proud of him because the kind of man I am now I would want to be there for all my children. Perhaps how I'm thinking is the modern 2006 American man and perhaps I'm not thinking as a Muslim. Is that a sin?

One of the things I'd like to tell my fellow brethren is at some point we cannot always judge people in accordance to our religious tradition. In this case, tradition is not always applicable to everyone's situation. I'm sure int he back of your minds (Well some of you) you may want to suggest that I shouldn't get married if my criteria is that "a woman should work." Perhaps, but again this is my life and my lifestyle. One of the things that I do struggle with in my Islamic culture is that women are not taught to be independent. Because if taught to be independent, then in the marriage lifestyle they would have to be independent on the man financially.

I don't want that of my children. My children will learn what it's like to be working adults regardless whether I have boy(s) or girl(s). In my personal belief women should be professionals, educated and independent because in marriage or life, there are unknown variables and who knows what might happen. For a professional man if he is taking care of his wife and his wife dies for whatever reason he is able to support himself bgecause he already has a career and its good enough where he can take care of himself or his children if he had any.

For a stay at home woman who does not know what its like to work and be independent the struggle is much hard because she has x2 as much work as the husband that took care of her. Not only does she have to find a job but if she's educated she must find a job suitable to where she can earn a decent pay. Not only that take care of household expenses as well as other necessities. This does not require a person to live a lavish lifestyle even if you lived in the "Ghetto's" the trials and tribulations can be difficult.

My mother had it difficult and I think if she had a man that could have met her halfway and helped her in the sense of contribution I think perhaps maybe she wouldn't have contracted breast cancer. Or perhaps she wouldn't have stressed all those years supporting me and my brother. This is why the importance of a 50/50 relationship. These types of men aren't rare, they are out there but they are scattered. Men like myself who would love the challenges of this type of relationship.

It's possible to be working parents and have children at the same time even though some of you don't. this is why we have classes that is called "Planned Parenting." Before a man and wopman engaged in sexual intercourse their lives should be planned ahead. Such as the possibilities of children. But before a man and woman have kids they should first stabilize themselves. Again I refuse to give money to a woman as what I earn is not hers, its for the family. Now of course on special occassion such as anniversaries etc this is where the wife deserves this treatment and vice versa. But I don't like the idea that I'm working to pay my wife. I think that's the wrong words to say but rather, working for my family.

Israfil wrote: . Again I refuse to give money to a woman as what I earn is not hers, its for the family. Now of course on special occassion such as anniversaries etc this is where the wife deserves this treatment and vice versa. But I don't like the idea that I'm working to pay my wife. I think that's the wrong words to say but rather, working for my family.

Wow, this is a horse of a totally different color?  Paying your wife?  Giving her money?  Its the families its not hers?  What do you think marriage is?????  My husband and I both work.  There is no concept of his or mine.  There is only ours.  It was that way when he was disabled and I worked.  It was still that way when I was laid off and he was the only income for 4 months.  We payed all the bills first, then bought things for the house (little things) and then it was whatever was needed.  If I needed work clothes we bought them, if he needed new pants and dress shirts we got those. 

I'm sorry this is going to make you angry, but you have a messed up view if you're going into marriage thinking in the terms of mine, hers and the family.  Once the ring is on the finger...its OURS, WE, US.....never ME, MINE, YOU, YOURS. 

If you can't think in those terms.  Do not get married.  It gets old real fast.  Lemme tell you, the only men I hear those words coming from are either abusive control freaks, or very lonely divorcees/bachelors.  The happily married men I know (both with and without working spouses) never use those words.

Just because I work doesn't mean its my money...my husband and I share responsibility.  And when I don't work.....its not like he sits there and says, well since you're not working, you can't go get new sneakers because your old ones are falling apart. 

Providing for your family can mean making sure your toddlers are being cared for by their mother and not some stranger in a daycare where they could be molested or abused.  Providing for your family can be waiting until the kids are in school before your wife returns to work.  I don't see why she can't work before the kids or after they are in school, but those years from 0-5 are crucial.

Single Moms are a tragedy and I'm sure none of them would chose that over having a loving spouse willing to help.  But taking the mother away from the developing infant only causes problems.

In the end, I was beginning to think we might have planted some seeds for thought but aparently there was a whole different issue.

(Oh and the age thing....get used to it, and trust me, one day, about 5 years from now, you're going to turn around, look at somebody in your shoes 5-10 years younger and you're going to realize what we were all talking about.  Its aggrivating when you're young, the older ones acting like they know better....well guess what....unfortunately, WE DO, we've already walked the paths you haven't even started on yet.)

Angela that comment was merely coming as the response of those here who believe that a man works for her...I was not saying that that is how I feel, if I thought that way then I'd be totally contradicting my statements that i've been saying all of along. you have totally used one statement and discarded the rest. If you're so wise and intelligent why not read the entire post rather make a broad sweeping arguement on what i believe. Again, that was a statement in response to some words that were said here which sounded as if Muslim men who marry are working to give money to their wives. I don't believe in this. i believ as you do as both the man and woman work for each other, its never individualistic.  Me being mad? Who are you? you are just a name on a computer who has no effect on my life so whay would I get angry?

On that piece about Russia, I saw another article saying Putin was worried that Russia will become a Moslem state as Moslems have more kids..

Again I refuse to give money to a woman as what I earn is not hers, its for the family. Now of course on special occassion such as anniversaries etc this is where the wife deserves this treatment and vice versa. But I don't like the idea that I'm working to pay my wife.

I think it is when you write from above it makes it all sound so planned and neat and tidy. Right now it is theoretical what may be what you want Israfil. But keep in mind that if and when marry, and you love and care for your wife, what is 'yours' and 'mine' will change. Is your wife not you 'family"?  I guess it may be the wording you are using. You can look at it as though you are 'paying' by why not look at it as sharing.  Does make you think about it differently

I think it is easier to think and plan for what one may feel is their 'ideal.' Nothing can prepare us about how it will feel being in the moment and living each day as it comes.

Obviously you wanted to discuss your particular situation and it is hard as, as you mentioned, we are all just random people on the computer.

I think that for the most part, in the US, most women who are in jobs, still do more housework and child care-taking than their spouses. And if you are in law enforcement you probably will work long, at times, unpredictable hours. No matter the situation your wife will be in terms of work, your job will cause a burden on her. And as relationships are give and take it would be, I think, important for you to realize this. So then you give in a different way.

I think as people are trying to post here, marriage and living a good healthy life with a partner, is not always neat and organized. I am sure you are aware of this.  

Jenni, I like what you wrote about speaking to your husband when he doesn�t want to do house chores.. pay for a maid

Assalamu Alaikum Brother Israfil:

"Again, that was a statement in response to some words that were said here which sounded as if Muslim men who marry are working to give money to their wives."

I think Muslim men work because they want to eat and have a place to sleep besides the street. Isn't that why non-Muslim men work also?

"Again I refuse to give money to a woman as what I earn is not hers, its for the family. Now of course on special occassion such as anniversaries etc this is where the wife deserves this treatment and vice versa. But I don't like the idea that I'm working to pay my wife."

I just don't even know what to think about this. I guess your Mom working two jobs through sickness and health didn't teach you the importance of sharing. Your wife is not a business partner, she is your family. And she's definitely not for hire.

Well, good luck with your marriage thing my Brother.

whatever

Israfil wrote: whatever

That's mature.....

Maybe i should have re-worded what i've said because it was not my intentions to sound selfish, i was merely (and again I was commenting on an earlier statement) responding to the comment made here that sounded as if the man works to support her, the woman. In my opinion the man works to support the family. Now if I were selfish I would have said the man works for himself. Mishmish let me remind you that I know my mother better than you do and I observed what she went through, you didn't so kindly not make remarks as if you knew her or as if you know me or what kind of person I am sister.

Again I appreciate every comment made here, and although I don't agree with some I do take much of what is said here in consideration. Inshallah on my 'marriage thing.' LOL what a joke!

Angela wrote: Finding a wife/husband that shares your dreams and wishes for the family is very important Israfil.  But, you shouldn't look down on a woman because she wants to be at home with her children.  I would like to make an example of my mother.  She chose to be a stay at home mother.  She spent a good portion of her day playing with us as kids, reading to us, teaching us our letters and numbers. (by Us, I mean my sister and I)  We did not have cable, only 3 stations that came in on the rabbit ears.  I remember doing crafts with her and helping her around the house before my father came home.  Picking up our toys and such.  When my brother came along, there were many changes.  My father bought a bigger house, we had more chores.  But, he could still afford to make all the payments himself.  He was Union and had great insurance.  Then he fell while working on the Pittsburgh Children's Hospital.  His injury robbed the family of his very good income.  He went on disability for about 18 months.  During this time, My mother stepped out of the house and took over the duty of the employed.  My father did what he could around the house, but he never played the learning games with my brother that had been done for my sister and I.  He helped potty train my brother and I took over the heavy chores of cutting grass and carting laundry up and down the stairs.  The family worked together as a unit.  When my father returned to work for the insurance company he works for, there was a lot of debt.  My mother and father realized they would not be able to pay for my education without her working.  So, she went to school and became a nurse.  This too required alot of sacrifice, but my father worked long hours, so the majority of the housework fell to us children. Now, the point of the story.  I graduated 7th in my high school class, my sister was in the top 20 of hers.  My brother almost did not graduate.  He could barely read an adult novel at age 15, where my sister and I were reading adult books by age 10.  My sister and I attended college.  My brother did not and will not.  My sister and I hold professional jobs.  My brother is working in a factory.  My sister and I are deeply spiritual people.  My brother hasn't seen the inside of a church (save weddings and funerals) in 10 years.  Why????  I fully and wholeheartedly believe its because Cristy and I had a mother, at home with us during those crucial years and Tim did not.  My mother did what was necessary for the family, when it was needed she left the home and entered the work place, however, there was one member of the family that suffered.  My baby brother.  Had no accident happened with my father, no debt would have mounted.  All would have been fine.  We could not have foreseen the events of that fall in 1989.  But, that three year old on the floor was not part of the decision making process and his voice was never heard. You want your wife to work.  That's good, what it seems is you want her to be able to step up to the plate like my mother did.  You'll be working long hours like my father.  You won't be able to do what my mother did for us.  So, I want you to listen in your heart to the voice of the 3 year old on the floor in 1989.  Or more likely the 20 year old young man who's lost, in 2006.  Think about your own sons and wonder if its better to have a wife willing to work but doesn't, or a wife who's required to work but doesn't need to do it. Happiness isn't a 5 bedroom house in the burbs, two new cars and a boat.  Happiness is spending Saturday at the Zoo with your dad, mom and siblings.  Or having a picnic on Sunday on the shore of a lake.  Or reading a scary book by candle light when the power goes out.  Or the first time your mother goes out and leaves all the kids alone with father, they conspire to make her laugh and when she walks through the door, father is tied to the chair and the children are dancing around him like little indians.

Bismillah,

Thank you, Sister Angela, for sharing this poignant family story.

Israfil wrote: 50/50 relationship? Now who's not being realistic? Even when women work outside the home, they are still primarily responsible for taking care of the home and the children. I don't know anyone in a relationship where both spouses work and the man does 50% of the housework and child rearing. To what information are you basing this one on. If its 50/50 that mans both the husband and the wife are sharing the duties including takin care of children which is what I want to do. My old supervisor who waited 6 years to hava child took care of his kid. Went to work in the day and took care of the child at night.  That is 50/50. He understands that they have to work to provide for another life. You guys keep using the "Can't change the word of Allah" I'm not saying that I'm rying to, just showing you my position. Angela, I'm 24 yes I'm young in comparison to you old folk! you guys always bring that up to me and that is fine. Because I'm younger than you doesn't mean I'm not listening to you. Many of you are making good points and I'm considering them, however a lot of what you guys are saying well some of them are not realistic to my situation. But thank you for the advice nonetheless\

Bismillah,

A lot of people that I know don't share the housework equally even though both of them work full time jobs.  That is the culture that is killing all of us and our families as well.

You're welcome for the advice.  ISA we can all help each other, Brother.  Peace

Assalamu Alaikum!

Sister Jenni: "Women teach men how to treat them. And men take advantage of women that is clear."

What is the point of such generalizations? It doesn't help the cause. I understand that women are going through hardships in many parts of the world. And they are subjected to discriminations of different forms. But,  there is no point to paint "men" with one brush. And I am also one of those men who always fight for the rights of women. I have done it all  my life. I was subjected to various forms of persecutions due to this activism, but never gave up the cause.

At the same time,  I  have also seen the cases where some stronger sisters beat their weaker husbands. Such cases may be far lower compared to the number of women victims.

Let us not divide the world along  the lines of "men" and "women". Let us unite for our common cause of humanity, and unite for the sake of Allah.

I suggest that you please choose better words to address your concern. It really hurts me to hear such words as if all my efforts have gone fruitless.

Peace

Angela wrote: Single Moms are a tragedy and I'm sure none of them would chose that over having a loving spouse willing to help.  But taking the mother away from the developing infant only causes problems.

I am offended at you saying that single mums are a tragedy!  how dare you.

And by the way there are many women who are choosing to be single parents these days.

I'm sorry that is off topic but what you said Angela is really offensive and it keeps the stigma of single parents as a bad thing and looked down upon, and I had to say something.

Well, Angel. I'm sorry you're offended.  But, I do believe single parenthood is a BAD THING.  Whether or not its by Choice.  Children deserve two parents, a mother and a father.  Its fundemental to my religious beliefs and my personal ones.  I don't look down on single parents, there are many societal problems that are causing parents to chose to do it on their own.  Abuse, Premarital sex, divorce and death.  None of these choices arise out of anything good.  The woman might chose to be a single parent to save their child from an abusive father.  That is a noble choice, but its still a tragedy that she was forced by situations beyond her control to have to do it on her own.  A father may chose to stay single after the death of his wife and raise his sons alone (my father in law), but that was not his original or best situation for the family.  The best situation would have been Irene living and the family being together.  But that didn't happen.

I do find single parenting to be a bad thing, but that doesn't mean that I don't think there are circumstances that should be tolerated to avoid it.  Again, abuse, drugs, divorce (abandonment), death.....all reasons to grab your kid and leave.  But, I really believe that the best place for a child is with a loving family that has both a MOTHER and a FATHER. 

Sister Angela,your words:"bad thing,tragedy",the wrong part of your comments are these two words,the others are your view no problem we respect and generally true and recommended but condemning the choices,using sharp words for the life styles we do not know their behinds:i think it is the one offenses the hearts...

Was the life of Hz.Mary,tragedy?,bad?...

003.044
YUSUFALI: This is part of the tidings of the things unseen, which We reveal unto thee (O Messenger!) by inspiration: Thou wast not with them when they cast lots with arrows, as to which of them should be charged with the care of Mary: Nor wast thou with them when they disputed (the point).

003.045
YUSUFALI: Behold! the angels said: "O Mary! Allah giveth thee glad tidings of a Word from Him: his name will be Christ Jesus, the son of Mary, held in honour in this world and the Hereafter and of (the company of) those nearest to Allah;

003.046
YUSUFALI: "He shall speak to the people in childhood and in maturity. And he shall be (of the company) of the righteous."

003.47YUSUFALI: She said: "O my Lord! How shall I have a son when no man hath touched me?" He said: "Even so: Allah createth what He willeth: When He hath decreed a plan, He but saith to it, 'Be,' and it is!
003.048
YUSUFALI: "And Allah will teach him the Book and Wisdom, the Law and the Gospel,

003.049
YUSUFALI: "And (appoint him) a messenger to the Children of Israel, (with this message): "'I have come to you, with a Sign from your Lord, in that I make for you out of clay, as it were, the figure of a bird, and breathe into it, and it becomes a bird by Allah's leave: And I heal those born blind, and the lepers, and I quicken the dead, by Allah's leave; and I declare to you what ye eat, and what ye store in your houses. Surely therein is a Sign for you if ye did believe;

Angela wrote: Well, Angel. I'm sorry you're offended.  But, I do believe single parenthood is a BAD THING.  Whether or not its by Choice.  Children deserve two parents, a mother and a father.  Its fundemental to my religious beliefs and my personal ones.  I don't look down on single parents, there are many societal problems that are causing parents to chose to do it on their own.  Abuse, Premarital sex, divorce and death.  None of these choices arise out of anything good.  The woman might chose to be a single parent to save their child from an abusive father.  That is a noble choice, but its still a tragedy that she was forced by situations beyond her control to have to do it on her own.  A father may chose to stay single after the death of his wife and raise his sons alone (my father in law), but that was not his original or best situation for the family.  The best situation would have been Irene living and the family being together.  But that didn't happen. I do find single parenting to be a bad thing, but that doesn't mean that I don't think there are circumstances that should be tolerated to avoid it.  Again, abuse, drugs, divorce (abandonment), death.....all reasons to grab your kid and leave.  But, I really believe that the best place for a child is with a loving family that has both a MOTHER and a FATHER.

I don''t necessarily disagree with what you say nor do I deny that some kids are better off with two parents but I do detest that you say (and I know that is your view) that single parenting is a bad thing and a tradegy. Because it is not, not in all cases, it can and has and will be for some the best thing.

I come from a single parent household and I know others. I was raised by my mum only, it was not a tradegy nor did it arise out of one, nor was it a bad thing. Not for one moment do I think my situation of growing up was a tradegy, I believe and looking back it was the best thing for me. Sure there were struggles and many times that we could have dipped below the proverty line, but what two parent situation don't struggle either?

Angel wrote: Angela wrote: Well, Angel. I'm sorry you're offended.  But, I do believe single parenthood is a BAD THING.  Whether or not its by Choice.  Children deserve two parents, a mother and a father.  Its fundemental to my religious beliefs and my personal ones.  I don't look down on single parents, there are many societal problems that are causing parents to chose to do it on their own.  Abuse, Premarital sex, divorce and death.  None of these choices arise out of anything good.  The woman might chose to be a single parent to save their child from an abusive father.  That is a noble choice, but its still a tragedy that she was forced by situations beyond her control to have to do it on her own.  A father may chose to stay single after the death of his wife and raise his sons alone (my father in law), but that was not his original or best situation for the family.  The best situation would have been Irene living and the family being together.  But that didn't happen. I do find single parenting to be a bad thing, but that doesn't mean that I don't think there are circumstances that should be tolerated to avoid it.  Again, abuse, drugs, divorce (abandonment), death.....all reasons to grab your kid and leave.  But, I really believe that the best place for a child is with a loving family that has both a MOTHER and a FATHER. I don''t necessarily disagree with what you say nor do I deny that some kids are better off with two parents but I do detest that you say (and I know that is your view) that single parenting is a bad thing and a tradegy. Because it is not, not in all cases, it can and has and will be for some the best thing. I come from a single parent household and I know others. I was raised by my mum only, it was not a tradegy nor did it arise out of one, nor was it a bad thing. Not for one moment do I think my situation of growing up was a tradegy, I believe and looking back it was the best thing for me. Sure there were struggles and many times that we could have dipped below the proverty line, but what two parent situation don't struggle either?

Bismillah,

Angel and Brother Israfil have being raised by their moms in common.  I know I had two adults around at all times, and frankly, they weren't very useful to my upbringing.  Maybe one dedicated parent could have done a better job of paying attention to me.  Allahu 'Allam.

Semantics are always tricky. Tragedy really denotes, to me, something really horrific-like war. Frankly, if you have at least one person looking out for you, physically, emotionally and mentally you are doing pretty well. Considering how many orphans there are in the world�

Hafya said it best!

I have to say I too disagree with Angela's comments regarding single parent households however as she notes that is also in accordance to her belief so we must respect her for her comments. I have to say that not everyone's circumstances are the same and not everyone woman pans out with a dedicated man. As for my mother unfortunately the men she chose did not reflect the same qualities she had in herself and unfortunately she constantly met the wrong man. With that said let me re-word a few things.

As i sat back and went outside of myself to read what I wrote I can understand how some words may lead to misunderstanding. perhaps I should have been more deicated into clarifying my position rather than exposing my few with little clarification. First off let me say that I do not come into any situation demanding a woman should do anything I tell her to do. that is not my belief about marriage. My belief about marriage is about being in unison which should be the emotional/spiritual state which reflects the spirituality of God's message.

With thatsaid given the nature of my society, my job and everything that involves my lifestyle it would be helpful and beneficial to meet someone of similar standards. Someone Academically educated (although not detrimental to me) and who understands discipline, and someone who can love and be loyal. I have no problems replicating these things as it is easy for me to say these. I say that its important to me a woman has to work as i have explained here numerous times is because the lifestyle here is dificult if you don't have a good paying job. That is clear here.

I can't move yet until I have established myself financially here and until then perhaps this is why I may put off having kids, however this would be a discussion me and my wife (Godwilling) i will have so I wish not to make premature decisions here. I think this is where the understanding part comes from. any great woman will understand the struggles of a man and would do things to accomodate that by meeting him halfway, regardless of her duties. Sometimes personal accomodations have to be set aside in the best interest of the family I know i have done them and have no problem doing that for my wife.

Of course I understand that there is a small percentage here that believes otherwise and that i know personally a large portion of Muslimah's who do work and who believe much like me. I just want people to understand here is that although its in the qur'an not everyone's situation is different and its like one of these cases here where you can agree to disagree.

I'd like to point out that I did say there were circumstances where single parenthood is preferrable to the alternatives.  My religious beliefs include eternal families.  Which means that the bond between a family is supposed to be a divine ordinance.  In our religious beliefs, if my husband and I adopt.  We will be going to a Temple and being sealed to that child just as my husband and I were sealed.  In our beliefs... a child that is missing their father is missing a worthy priesthood holder, a spiritual guide and a strong male role model.  A child missing their mother is missing the love and nurturing women give their children, the strong emotional support and a good female role model. 

However, I understand there are people's families like Herjihad's and Jenni's that aren't doing what they are supposed to as parents.  I consider this an equal tragedy to the woman or man who is having to do it on her own.  Tragedy doesn't have to be a war, it can be a circumstance like divorce.

In Islam, didn't the Prophet (pbuh) take several widows for wives to care for them so they would not be alone and didn't he foster those children so they would have (if not a father) a father figure?  In Suleyman's response as to Mary, don't forget that we Christians believe that Mary was cared for by Joseph and that he was Jesus's foster father here on Earth. 

My father in law is a single parent.  My mother in law died when my youngest brother in law was only 7 and her other sons were 12, 21, and 23.  The two youngest had no clue how to deal with a woman in the household when I married my husband.  The youngest is still quiet clueless at times about a number of things. 

I'm sure those who have been in single parent households love their parent tremendously for the sacrifices.  That parent did the best they could in many situations.  However, all things being equal, I'm sure a loving father in the home would have just made things that much better.

There are alot of bad parents out there.  Married and unmarried.  But, God created us to be man and woman, mother and father, husband and wife.  If we are doing our duty before God, not having premarital sex, honoring our spouses and practicing what we preach, then the family unit is strong and whole.  There are circumstance that tear it apart.....death, abandonment and abuse.  There is also premarital sex that creates single parents.  ALL are bad things.  I refuse to say any different.

http://www.lds.org/library/display/0,4945,105-1-11-1,00.html - http://www.lds.org/library/display/0,4945,105-1-11-1,00.html

Angela,

With all due respect to you, you are no judge to either Sister Jenni or Sister Herjihad's life nor can we say what their parents did are tragedies. Like you said these things are in accordance to your belief and I respect that, but if we are to respect the poweers that be i.e God, then we must leave judgement to him. With that said, we have totally swayed away from the subject heading but I want to make a few things clear.

My mother had me out of wedlock and so according to your definition (and beliefs) she committed a tragedy. Now since you guys believe in predestination I would assume you would agree that God directly or indirectly guides our lives whether he puts things in front of us to sin or to be pious. I'm sure you would also agree that even when we sin, sometimes even the outcome could be positive. Not only for the individual but for everyone else.

Angela let me say that I am proud that I was raised by a single parent, a woman who showed courage and spirit in the face of adversity. My biological father although was thee, was an alcoholic whose priorities didn't involve me. I would agree that my mother couldn't teach me how to be a man, but she did teach me things that men should practice.

According to you families are considered "eternal bond" I would agree partially. Nothing in this physical life is eternal not even marriage. There are circumstances that could happen: Death, inreconcilable differences, divorce etc. Nothing is in the sense of the word, "eternal." Now this is according to my own personal beliefs excluding my faith here so "judge" me on these words alone.

We can quote all the scripture we want but the fact remains that in the year 2006 everyones lives are different and how we as people were raised we had no control. Perhaps what we can learn through our upbringing we can impliment the positive to enchance our own lives and better our children's future. First we must find the right spouse to make that happen.

I was not "judging" the two sister's families anymore than they have already done.  *sighs*  I give up.  Is Zina bad or not Israfil?  Is a child without two loving and faithful parents good or bad??? 

Would you have preferred your father an alcoholic or a faithful man of god who loved and cared for you as a man should?  Do you excuse his actions because your mother was a strong woman who could do it on her own?

I'm done arguing this point.  I don't care what any of you think.  God says we are to be man and wife and that children should be born and raised within a family.  If you all can't understand that, you aren't the Muslims/Christians I thought you were.

Angela wrote: II'm done arguing this point.  I don't care what any of you think.  God says we are to be man and wife and that children should be born and raised within a family.  If you all can't understand that, you aren't the Muslims/Christians I thought you were.

�s this Angela?...

Angel wrote: I don''t necessarily disagree with what you say nor do I deny that some kids are better off with two parents but I do detest that you say (and I know that is your view) that single parenting is a bad thing and a tradegy. Because it is not, not in all cases, it can and has and will be for some the best thing. I come from a single parent household and I know others. I was raised by my mum only, it was not a tradegy nor did it arise out of one, nor was it a bad thing. Not for one moment do I think my situation of growing up was a tradegy, I believe and looking back it was the best thing for me. Sure there were struggles and many times that we could have dipped below the proverty line, but what two parent situation don't struggle either?

...Best Regards to your mum,go on Angel...there is no tragedy and drama,just a blessing of God....

Angela wrote: Well, Angel. I'm sorry you're offended.  But, I do believe single parenthood is a BAD THING.  Whether or not its by Choice.  Children deserve two parents, a mother and a father.  Its fundemental to my religious beliefs and my personal ones.  I don't look down on single parents, there are many societal problems that are causing parents to chose to do it on their own.  Abuse, Premarital sex, divorce and death.  None of these choices arise out of anything good.  The woman might chose to be a single parent to save their child from an abusive father.  That is a noble choice, but its still a tragedy that she was forced by situations beyond her control to have to do it on her own.  A father may chose to stay single after the death of his wife and raise his sons alone (my father in law), but that was not his original or best situation for the family.  The best situation would have been Irene living and the family being together.  But that didn't happen. I do find single parenting to be a bad thing, but that doesn't mean that I don't think there are circumstances that should be tolerated to avoid it.  Again, abuse, drugs, divorce (abandonment), death.....all reasons to grab your kid and leave.  But, I really believe that the best place for a child is with a loving family that has both a MOTHER and a FATHER.

....

Angela,

We have to get something straight here.....

First, commenting on the upbringing of people here is totally against what we were discussing before. You pose the question "Is Zina bad or not?" Yes, according to religious traditions committing premarital sex is bad, however there are circumstances within peoples lives which in the moment of this engaement people act upon their emotions. You ask me what would I prefer, an alcoholic father or man of God? For some of us we never grew up with these choices and how we are as adults we can live with what we had and move forward. Having a "man of God" is indeed an idealistic quality women should want however, it doesn't pan out that way.

I apologize if I frustrate you, but because I disagree with you you shouldn't question the "kind of Muslim" I am. I'm glad you exercise the lack of care of what I think because you are exercising your right to free speech because I feel exactly the same way of people here.

Israfil wrote: Salaam, I hope this find all of you well. I wanted to make a seperate topic because I didn't want to take away from Moona's original question and if I contributed to that I apologize to sister Moona. I hope you (Muslimah's and people of the forum) will read clearly and respond to me in accordance of my words here rather interpret what you may think I'm referring to. Let me first say that there should be no circular explanations here in regards to the duties of men. I read the Qur'an serveral times over and have studied it in school and on my own personal time so I'm quite aware of the iplications of 'important verses' this including the duties of men. My Position I believe that a Muslim man in the faith of Islam has one of the greatest duties which is to be the provider of his family. He is the protector and trustee of his wife and partner and father of his children. He, like the wife is the example is which the children will see as models and will feed of the knowledge that he (the father) will teach them. With respect to this I understand the Qur'an is clear on the specific duties of men and although this is aparrent it is not always possible in every case. For instance I noticed none of you members ever used an example of a Muslim Law Enforcement official either you guys don't know any or perhaps don't truly understand. I'm in a unique position here. I'm going to be done with the Academy soon and already have a station where I will be working. It is in my future at the station I will be working almost 50-55 hours per week this including overtime because I'm a "rookie" because rookies normally don't have "say so's" on what hours they want to work even with aset schedule. This is usually the first 6 months because I'm in probation and plus I need to pass my requirements as a rookie with several of my TO's (Training Officer). This is really not the point because I know several guys now in the Academy who have wives at home and they have already made planning arrangements so this is not the issue, the issue is the independence of a woman. Let me be clear that I think the coment made by sister Mishmish when she said I wouldn' except a woman who believes its her right to stay at home is wrong. First off any good woman regardless what religion understands that if she loves her husband there would be some grounds for compromise first off. I want a woman who understands the dangers of my job. If I ever become incapacited or killed what will my wife do? I want you guys to contemplate rather react emotionally and thump me over the head with Qur'an for a moment. Let us assume I have children and we live in a house and our mortage payments are $2500 per/month plus other expenses and let's say my wife does work to try to support her children what will she do? She will obviously work but she will have a difficult time because she is not only supporting herself, but the children as well as the house. She could move of course but even still the road to stability will be difficult. What I'm saying here is that I want a woman who understands herself and her capbilities but I also want a woman who also understands and knows that my life is temporal and its a possibility I may not come home. This is not some job where there is no immediate threat like a Pharmecutical Tech, or a sit at home Mother or a Banker. I'm literally putting my life on the line to save each and every one of you (those in California at least) every single day. I need a woman to understand that and accept that reality. This is why I would want my wife to work because in the event that happens she can atleast manage the financial aspect and have the means to manage herself. I know some of you would like to use the duties of men in accordance to the Qur'an to prove a point to me. No need. There are things in the Qur'an that we should do, must do and some we cannot always do. For instance we should judge judge each other on piety not culture, we must believe in God's Oneness but we don't always work our life around God's mandate on the duties of a Muslim family. I feel some of the women here thumb their noses at me at the fact that I believe this. Well if women in Islam cannot understand my point then that is why I may feel that maybe being with a Muslim woman is not in my destiny. The hard part about finding good people is that there are not a lot and I don't feel like someone lecturing e about what I should do especially when my job is so dangerous and my life is always at an immediate threat. None of you will go what I will go through so in actuality, none of you can basically tell me "Women have this and that right and as a man I should understand that." I feel that it would selfishness on a woman's aspect to think first about herself and what she can get out of a marriage rather than think about "family." It's funny that non-muslim women are on the same page as I am with this respect as well as some Muslim women I know. Some Muslim women do work because they understand that even to manage a simple lifestyle here is difficult. Some work because of cultural reasons because their families push them to be doctors or lawyers. Not like what Mishmish says "because they want to." Some Muslim women work because as immigrants their community forbade them to work. One reality of our religion is that it is very much patriarchal and very much culturally influenced. but noting these particulars would be, besides the point. I'm not saying a woman should work hard hard and hard like me but at least even in partial, contribute financially. Not only does this teach independence (trust me in my life as of now I know some women raised to be dependent so not all women understand independence) but it also teaches interdependence because in relationships I feel that both the man and the woman should be equal partners. I hope you guys understand my position here and not may sweeping judgements in thinking that I think women should do this opr that but understand my opinion in respec with my career. I'd like to here a reasonable argument from any of you women and men since many of you have opinions about what I should do. Knowing about my job now do you think I should let a woman stay home? If so, why? If not why? Knowing my situation as a cop do you think I'm wrong to believe this? I know to some of you I'm a "little brother" and whatever and to that I'm sure my respect level is low but honestly I'd like to hear (or in this case read) what you have to say.

Good article Israfil..JazzakallahuKhayr

To those here let me say that I have to agree with Israfil's POV......I too live in California and as a woman its sometimes hard living here. I of course live a pretty good life but I had to work hard for it. I'm educated, street smart and run my own business.

I can personally say, as Israfil describes himself, not a lot of men in California possess that kind of quality. Not trying to make a love connection but qualities in which he is saying what he wants in a woman to me is a good catch. Unfortunately California is materialistic and there a lot of women here (as well as abroad) that are materialistic.

I remember even making a trip to Iran for a conference a lot of people "In a Muslim country" are materialistic. I remember wearing Chanel shades a woman in full "Islamic-Style" clothing approached me and asked me "In America, how much did my sunglasses cost?"

The way our society in the United States is today things are a lot more pricier and a lot more expensive than some Bedouin Arab who lives in a hut in the Arabian desert. Money can be maintained and sure, a woman can stay home but I wouldn't want to be a sit-at-home wife. It's too boring and I'm too educated. No offense to housewives here.

As I was coming into my own busniess there was a lot of discrimination because I'm a woman. I've made through the hurddles and have championed my own struggles. What Israfil wants is not a lot and unfortunately none of the Muslim women here seem to appreciate that. Too bad good men like that has to put up with much  crap. But to the women I say stay home and follow religious guildance as that would be best. Some of you made really good points to him but some of you were saying points that were valid but didn't address what he was saying.

Salam Alaykum,

Your reasons are concrete, I cannot object to what you are saying, however your opinion differs to put conditions on your wife to work or what have you, she may already work, but would you reject somebody who doesn't fit that criteria?

To think broad is a good aspect you possess. Nothing better than knowing the depth of the future and it's possibilities. I am a woman and my view towards this varies. Personally when it's my time to get married inshAllah, the person i want, would not be your type. not personality wise, which im sure is quite explicit, more so to the fact, i don't think that this is the life i would want, never seeing my husband or having my hand on my heart each time your on the streets. Again life could be taken away from you whether your a cop or a banker. Point being is that i always imagined myself being with someone who is highly educated and who can teach me more than what i know about religion, I am not looking at PHD's because to me that just proves knowledge in one subject, but someone who has a clear view on life and everything in general is someone i call wise. I am just realisitic  in regards to where i am heading, and to have someone who constantly thinks about the hereafter, will effect my children in a way that when he leaves this world he will leave content. 

Besides a woman's jihad is to stay at home, no-one is saying she's restricted which i'm sure in my case i would be working and making a living, but you see i can leave when i want because this is not my duty. Hence all that study without work would be worthless. I know that i have duties and the number one on my list would be to look after my husband and children, but if i had a husband who was constantly working well i would feel like i'm doing this all on my own, because financially is not what i asked for, but to care and look after a family he created also.

Salam Alaykum..:)

DrEaMa...