Yankovich,

http://www.islamicity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=4518&PN=1 - http://www.islamicity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=4518& ;PN=1

http://www.islamicity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=4893&PN=1 - http://www.islamicity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=4893& ;PN=1

http://www.islamicity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=4807&PN=2 - http://www.islamicity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=4807& ;PN=2

There are a number of threads already discussing the issue.  Please read over them and join those discussions.  We would love your input.

Okay, but what did my Muslim friend mean by this:

Jesus is God's Word.  He spoke and he was?

019.016
YUSUFALI: Relate in the Book (the story of) Mary, when she withdrew from her family to a place in the East.
PICKTHAL: And make mention of Mary in the Scripture, when she had withdrawn from her people to a chamber looking East,
SHAKIR: And mention Marium in the Book when she drew aside from her family to an eastern place;

019.017
YUSUFALI: She placed a screen (to screen herself) from them; then We sent her our angel, and he appeared before her as a man in all respects.
PICKTHAL: And had chosen seclusion from them. Then We sent unto her Our Spirit and it assumed for her the likeness of a perfect man.
SHAKIR: So she took a veil (to screen herself) from them; then We sent to her Our spirit, and there appeared to her a well-made man.

019.018
YUSUFALI: She said: "I seek refuge from thee to (Allah) Most Gracious: (come not near) if thou dost fear Allah."
PICKTHAL: She said: Lo! I seek refuge in the Beneficent One from thee, if thou art Allah-fearing.
SHAKIR: She said: Surely I fly for refuge from you to the Beneficent Allah, if you are one guarding (against evil).

019.019
YUSUFALI: He said: "Nay, I am only a messenger from thy Lord, (to announce) to thee the gift of a holy son.
PICKTHAL: He said: I am only a messenger of thy Lord, that I may bestow on thee a faultless son.
SHAKIR: He said: I am only a messenger of your Lord: That I will give you a pure boy.

019.020
YUSUFALI: She said: "How shall I have a son, seeing that no man has touched me, and I am not unchaste?"
PICKTHAL: She said: How can I have a son when no mortal hath touched me, neither have I been unchaste?
SHAKIR: She said: When shall I have a boy and no mortal has yet touched me, nor have I been unchaste?

019.021
YUSUFALI: He said: "So (it will be): Thy Lord saith, 'that is easy for Me: and (We wish) to appoint him as a Sign unto men and a Mercy from Us':It is a matter (so) decreed."
PICKTHAL: He said: So (it will be). Thy Lord saith: It is easy for Me. And (it will be) that We may make of him a revelation for mankind and a mercy from Us, and it is a thing ordained.
SHAKIR: He said: Even so; your Lord says: It is easy to Me: and that We may make him a sign to men and a mercy from Us, and it is a matter which has been decreed.

019.022
YUSUFALI: So she conceived him, and she retired with him to a remote place.
PICKTHAL: And she conceived him, and she withdrew with him to a far place.
SHAKIR: So she conceived him; then withdrew herself with him to a remote place.

019.023
YUSUFALI: And the pains of childbirth drove her to the trunk of a palm-tree: She cried (in her anguish): "Ah! would that I had died before this! would that I had been a thing forgotten and out of sight!"
PICKTHAL: And the pangs of childbirth drove her unto the trunk of the palm-tree. She said: Oh, would that I had died ere this and had become a thing of naught, forgotten!
SHAKIR: And the throes (of childbirth) compelled her to betake herself to the trunk of a palm tree. She said: Oh, would that I had died before this, and had been a thing quite forgotten!

019.024
YUSUFALI: But (a voice) cried to her from beneath the (palm-tree): "Grieve not! for thy Lord hath provided a rivulet beneath thee;
PICKTHAL: Then (one) cried unto her from below her, saying: Grieve not! Thy Lord hath placed a rivulet beneath thee,
SHAKIR: Then (the child) called out to her from beneath her: Grieve not, surely your Lord has made a stream to flow beneath you;

019.025
YUSUFALI: "And shake towards thyself the trunk of the palm-tree: It will let fall fresh ripe dates upon thee.
PICKTHAL: And shake the trunk of the palm-tree toward thee, thou wilt cause ripe dates to fall upon thee.
SHAKIR: And shake towards you the trunk of the palmtree, it will drop on you fresh ripe dates:

019.026
YUSUFALI: "So eat and drink and cool (thine) eye. And if thou dost see any man, say, 'I have vowed a fast to (Allah) Most Gracious, and this day will I enter into not talk with any human being'"
PICKTHAL: So eat and drink and be consoled. And if thou meetest any mortal, say: Lo! I have vowed a fast unto the Beneficent, and may not speak this day to any mortal.
SHAKIR: So eat and drink and refresh the eye. Then if you see any mortal, say: Surely I have vowed a fast to the Beneficent Allah, so I shall not speak to any man today.

019.027
YUSUFALI: At length she brought the (babe) to her people, carrying him (in her arms). They said: "O Mary! truly an amazing thing hast thou brought!
PICKTHAL: Then she brought him to her own folk, carrying him. They said: O Mary! Thou hast come with an amazing thing.
SHAKIR: And she came to her people with him, carrying him (with her). They said: O Marium! surely you have done a strange thing.

019.028
YUSUFALI: "O sister of Aaron! Thy father was not a man of evil, nor thy mother a woman unchaste!"
PICKTHAL: O sister of Aaron! Thy father was not a wicked man nor was thy mother a harlot.
SHAKIR: O sister of Haroun! your father was not a bad man, nor, was your mother an unchaste woman.

019.029
YUSUFALI: But she pointed to the babe. They said: "How can we talk to one who is a child in the cradle?"
PICKTHAL: Then she pointed to him. They said: How can we talk to one who is in the cradle, a young boy?
SHAKIR: But she pointed to him. They said: How should we speak to one who was a child in the cradle?

019.030
YUSUFALI: He said: "I am indeed a servant of Allah: He hath given me revelation and made me a prophet;
PICKTHAL: He spake: Lo! I am the slave of Allah. He hath given me the Scripture and hath appointed me a Prophet,
SHAKIR: He said: Surely I am a servant of Allah; He has given me the Book and made me a prophet;

019.031
YUSUFALI: "And He hath made me blessed wheresoever I be, and hath enjoined on me Prayer and Charity as long as I live;
PICKTHAL: And hath made me blessed wheresoever I may be, and hath enjoined upon me prayer and almsgiving so long as I remain alive,
SHAKIR: And He has made me blessed wherever I may be, and He has enjoined on me prayer and poor-rate so long as I live;

019.032
YUSUFALI: "(He) hath made me kind to my mother, and not overbearing or miserable;
PICKTHAL: And (hath made me) dutiful toward her who bore me, and hath not made me arrogant, unblest.
SHAKIR: And dutiful to my mother, and He has not made me insolent, unblessed;

019.033
YUSUFALI: "So peace is on me the day I was born, the day that I die, and the day that I shall be raised up to life (again)"!
PICKTHAL: Peace on me the day I was born, and the day I die, and the day I shall be raised alive!
SHAKIR: And peace on me on the day I was born, and on the day I die, and on the day I am raised to life.

019.034
YUSUFALI: Such (was) Jesus the son of Mary: (it is) a statement of truth, about which they (vainly) dispute.
PICKTHAL: Such was Jesus, son of Mary: (this is) a statement of the truth concerning which they doubt.
SHAKIR: Such is Isa, son of Marium; (this is) the saying of truth about which they dispute.

019.035
YUSUFALI: It is not befitting to (the majesty of) Allah that He should beget a son. Glory be to Him! when He determines a matter, He only says to it, "Be", and it is.
PICKTHAL: It befitteth not (the Majesty of) Allah that He should take unto Himself a son. Glory be to Him! When He decreeth a thing, He saith unto it only: Be! and it is.
SHAKIR: It beseems not Allah that He should take to Himself a ! son, glory to be Him; when He has decreed a matter He only says to it "Be," and it is.

019.036
YUSUFALI: Verily Allah is my Lord and your Lord: Him therefore serve ye: this is a Way that is straight.
PICKTHAL: And lo! Allah is my Lord and your Lord. So serve Him. That is the right path.
SHAKIR: And surely Allah is my Lord and your Lord, therefore serve Him; this is the right path.

Hello Yankovich,

Greetings!

You asked:"Okay, but what did my Muslim friend mean by this:

Jesus is God's Word.  He spoke and he was?"

Please let me explain: Qur'aan does not say that Jesus is God's Word. It simply means that the Word meaning Command went out and Mary conceived Jesus.

This can be explained easily with the help of Bible also: God said,"Let there be light." So, there was light. God said,"Let there be night." So, there was night. God said,"Let a child be conceived by Mary without any man touching her." Mary did.

In Qur'aan's Arabic, the Word of God for anything to be done upon God's Command is "Let there be and Lo! It is done."

Another example: I received a word from my driver that the car was being polished. It was a piece of information.

That is what your Muslim friend meant when he said that. Hope this helped.

Everything and anything that God brought into existence was a word with God, meaning God wanted to create or bring it out. There were no words living with God.

Best Regards

BMZ

Yankovich's statement:   bmz:  Well, thanks for that explanantion.  But, then that means that Jesus did not exist before He was in Mary's womb - right?  What about the Bible vs. that says, "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God."  Do you think that this is correct (probably not if you are Muslim), or was added to the manuscript, or is a corruption.  Or do you believe that the Apostle John really, really wrote that? And, if he did, was he wrong?

______________________________________________________

My response: 

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

Hi Yank,

I liked your footnote slogan.

You wrote: "bmz:  Well, thanks for that explanantion.  But, then that means that Jesus did not exist before He was in Mary's womb - right?"

That is right.

"What about the Bible vs. that says, "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God."  Do you think that this is correct (probably not if you are Muslim), or was added to the manuscript, or is a corruption.  Or do you believe that the Apostle John really, really wrote that? And, if he did, was he wrong?"

All I can say is that John wrote that himself and that seems like his own thought as we do not hear of this from any other person or gospel writers. That is quite an imagination of his own and even God and Jesus would have been surprised.

To me, it does not seem correct. Even if I were a non-Muslim, I would not have accepted it as good English.

In the beginning there was only God, would have been more proper and acceptable. Not a single word or Word could have existed before God. If it did, then God was beaten or overtaken by the word or the Word and God became a second fiddle. 

If the word or the Word became God, then God lost all his Highness, Glory, Godliness and became a useless God.

We do not even know who this John was. There were so many Johns, Matthews, Marks and Lukes and none of these writers signed his books.

This John sounds more like a philosopher engaged to write a gospel (which he wrote on his own), injecting his own word or Word, which was not at all a thought or a word of or from Jesus. I am surprised where did he get that idea from?

AbRah,

Looks like a nice early morning in the US. Only a difference of two minutes between the postings.

Salaam Alaikum

BMZ

Wa Alaikum Assalaam, AbRah

Thanks for your kind words. As I was explaining to our friend Yankovich, "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.", this was written with the thought or the word in John, the writer's mind that he had to explain God and God Jesus to his people. The other three gospel writers did not write anything like that.

His being the last to be chosen gospel, he had to start with something forceful. Remember there were hundreds of learned men and priests from various areas who were trying to compromise on who Jesus really was and they were debating. I think John borrowed the idea from the start of Genesis and coined his own opening statement, "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." 

What John says can also mean that God in the very beginning had thought of having another God and that thought "the Word" was in God's mind. the reason I say this is: NO Word or word or anything could have existed before God. So John might have preferred to use Word instead of Thought. Because if he had used the word Thought, it would not have impressed the Gentiles.

What do you think?

BMZ

Hey Abed,

I hope AbRah will try to do it legit!  AbRah is a novice.

Since you mentioned the Jesus Seminars, is this true of Thomas Jefferson?

"There is nothing new about this approach in New Testament scholarship. Thomas Jefferson, a great American patriot and president did the same thing in the late 1700s with almost identical results. He admired Jesus as a moral man, but like the Jesus Fellows, he assumed all supernatural and extraordinary elements in the Gospels were unreliable and could not be true. With scissors and paste, Jefferson cut out of the Gospels any and everything which contravened the laws of nature and his own reason.

When he had finished his project, only 82 columns of the four Gospels out of his King James Bible remained from an original 700. The other nine-tenths lay on the cutting room floor. Jefferson entitled his creation The Life and Morals of Jesus, and his book ended with the words, "There laid they Jesus . . . and rolled a great stone to the door of the sepulcher and departed."(2)"

Good to see you here, Mate.

BMZ

Yes that's true. Here is a link to the book you can down load it.

http://nothingistic.org/library/jefferson/jesus/ - http://nothingistic.org/library/jefferson/jesus/  

Bear in mind, Jefferson was a Deist, he was not a Christian. He rejected out of hand revealed religion.

You are quite right Abednego - didn't Jefferson create his own bible, having torn out those portions which he didn't agree with?

As far as the Jesus Seminars go, isn't it interesting that this group whose scholarship has been exposed as biased and faulty is used as a weapon against Christianity?

My response: 

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

Is Jesus God? Jesus is not God because Jesus is a powerless man: John 5:30 I (Jesus) can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.

Abed,

"Jefferson entitled his creation The Life and Morals of Jesus, and his book ended with the words, "There laid they Jesus . . . and rolled a great stone to the door of the sepulcher and departed."(2)" "

He has left nothing for you, George and me! He just shut the door and left.

Greetings, Mirium & welcome.

"bm:  Of course, Muslims would have to disagree with Jefferson, since the Quran denies that he died, and therefore could not have been laid in a tomb."

I meant that Jefferson stopped at that point and left out all about resurrection, which he might have thought was redundant. George and Abednego know me well.

Yes, as a Muslim, regarding Jesus, not only do I disagree with my Christian friends but I would also disagree with Jefferson. But I would like to add that Jefferson was a smart guy. I think he really read the NT too much.