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50,000 Errors in the Bible

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Category: Religion - Islam
Forum Name: Interfaith Dialogue
Forum Description: It is for Interfaith dialogue, where Muslims discuss with non-Muslims. We encourge that dialogue takes place in a cordial atmosphere on various topics including religious tolerance.
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Topic: 50,000 Errors in the Bible
Posted By: salman
Subject: 50,000 Errors in the Bible
Date Posted: 19 May 2006 at 4:45am
http://www.jamaat.net/bible/AwakeArticle1957.html - http://www.jamaat.net/bible/AwakeArticle(1957).html

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It is better to be alone than to be in bad company.



Replies:
Posted By: Patty
Date Posted: 19 May 2006 at 6:18am

I couldn't open the link, Salman.  Are you still able to open it?

God's Peace,

Patty



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Patty

I don't know what the future holds....but I know who holds the future.


Posted By: salman
Date Posted: 19 May 2006 at 6:35am

if you are not able to open the link, then go to the main website http://www.jamaat.net - www.jamaat.net and the you may search the site by typing 50,000 Errors in the Bible



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It is better to be alone than to be in bad company.


Posted By: Patty
Date Posted: 19 May 2006 at 7:12am
Thanks.

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Patty

I don't know what the future holds....but I know who holds the future.


Posted By: DavidC
Date Posted: 19 May 2006 at 8:50am
This is a very poor source, Salman.  AWAKE is a tract published by a sect/cult called Jehovah's Witnesses.  It is manipulative propaganda and not scholarship.

If you want to discuss discrepancies in biblical manuscripts and translations that is certainly a valid topic in most Christian semniaries around the world.  A good accessible place to start is the book, "Don't Know Much About the Bible", by Kenneth C. Davis.  More advanced scholars will prefer the works of Dr. Bart D. Ehrman, chair of Religious Studies at UNC,  who has made a life long study of this topic. 

Christian scholars have not hidden this knowledge, in fact, we are the ones who have researched and published it.  I'm sure you will agree that reading genuine scholarship on the subject is preferable to reading pulp tracts.


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Christian; Wesleyan M.Div.


Posted By: Alibaba
Date Posted: 19 May 2006 at 9:59am

The Watchtower Society, which publishes Awake magazine, is viewed as a cultic system by Orthodox Christians.  They deny many central doctrines of the Christian faith, including the deity of Christ, the omnipresence of God, salvation by grace through faith alone, and also teach that only 144,000 "anointed" believers will ever go to heaven.  All the rest, known as Jonadabs, will have to live on a purified, regenerated earth and serve the anoninted ones.  Jesus is viewed as the Archangel Michael who took on a body, so obviously the Trinity is denied.

The Watchtower Society has its own Bible called The New World Translation, which might better be called the New World Mistranslation.  It incorporates into that book its own doctrinal views by purposely mistranslating various NT vss.

Watch your sources.



Posted By: Angela
Date Posted: 19 May 2006 at 10:00am
Also, the Jehovah Witness (Green Dragon) Bible has been rewritten.  I'm not sure which Bible they are using.  I had a dear friend who was JW and his bible didn't match the KJV I was given by my Methodist Church in a number of places.


Posted By: Angela
Date Posted: 19 May 2006 at 10:02am

Alibaba,

Have you ever heard of tact????  You really should look at David's post and your own and read into the TONE.  That's 90% of what's getting you flack here.



Posted By: Alibaba
Date Posted: 19 May 2006 at 10:02am

Angela, here is a link that answers the JW claim made in the Awake article.  Warning - it is not a pro-Muslim site:

http://www.bible.ca/islam/islam-bible-50000-errors.htm - http://www.bible.ca/islam/islam-bible-50000-errors.htm



Posted By: Alibaba
Date Posted: 19 May 2006 at 10:18am
Angela, in regard to which statement about the Watchtower Society do you refer?


Posted By: Cyril
Date Posted: 19 May 2006 at 10:20am
It is amusing to hear on a Muslim forum of "50 000 errors" in the Bible, which is a book written by men, when there are a number of errors in the Quran supposedly written by God.


Posted By: fredifreeloader
Date Posted: 19 May 2006 at 10:23am

Originally posted by Cyril Cyril wrote:

It is amusing to hear on a Muslim forum of "50 000 errors" in the Bible, which is a book written by men, when there are a number of errors in the Quran supposedly written by God.

"nice one cyril, nice one son, nice one cyril, lets have another one" - olde englishe footballe songe



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for i am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth - romans 1: 16


Posted By: Alibaba
Date Posted: 19 May 2006 at 10:23am

Cyril, excellent point.  The Bible has some 40 plus authors.  One of the proofs of the divine inspiration of Scripture is that 40 plus authors could write such a book that is so unform in its doctrine - how beautifully these various men wrote (under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit), a 66-book document that consistently teaches montheism, salvation by God's grace, andthe coming forth of the Messiah, Jesus, to pay the penalty of sin (compare Genesis 3:15 and Isa. 53 for instance).

The Quran on the other hand was supposedly created in Heaven, right?  Yet I recently read an article which asserts that there are many geographical and historical errors in the Quran, and that it also is not very intelligible in Arabic (but of course, I'm not an Arabic speaking person, so I can't confirm that).



Posted By: salman
Date Posted: 19 May 2006 at 10:26am

Originally posted by Cyril Cyril wrote:

It is amusing to hear on a Muslim forum of "50 000 errors" in the Bible, which is a book written by men, when there are a number of errors in the Quran supposedly written by God.

you are crazy. there are no errors in the Qur'an. It is the truth revealed by Allah to Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) the last messenger of Allah and it is for entire mankind. not a single word or letter has been changed in the Qur'an since its revelation and it can never be changed as Allah almighty has said because it is the true word of Allah.



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It is better to be alone than to be in bad company.


Posted By: Angela
Date Posted: 19 May 2006 at 10:52am
Originally posted by Alibaba Alibaba wrote:

Cyril, excellent point.  The Bible has some 40 plus authors.  One of the proofs of the divine inspiration of Scripture is that 40 plus authors could write such a book that is so unform in its doctrine - how beautifully these various men wrote (under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit), a 66-book document that consistently teaches montheism, salvation by God's grace, andthe coming forth of the Messiah, Jesus, to pay the penalty of sin (compare Genesis 3:15 and Isa. 53 for instance).

The Quran on the other hand was supposedly created in Heaven, right?  Yet I recently read an article which asserts that there are many geographical and historical errors in the Quran, and that it also is not very intelligible in Arabic (but of course, I'm not an Arabic speaking person, so I can't confirm that).

Just to play Devil's advocate, so what do we do with all the scriptures that were not included.  Anything can be uniform if you cut and paste.  (Not that I'm really arguing the point, but I know that is going to be an arguement against what your are saying.)



Posted By: Alibaba
Date Posted: 19 May 2006 at 10:58am

Angela, it is of course a belief found in your own church that there were books left out of Scripture.  However, for most Christians, including the C of E and the Roman Church, we believe that Jesus' promise that the Holy Spirit would guide His church was fulfilled, and certainly resulted in the correct canonization of Scripture.  The canonization of Scriptures is an interesting topic for study.  Perhaps you like to study it a little and get back to me:

http://www.foundationsforfreedom.net/Topics/Bible/Bible_Canonization.html - http://www.foundationsforfreedom.net/Topics/Bible/Bible_Cano nization.html

Of course there are some Roman and Eastern Orthodox distinctives, but none of the apocraphyl books in any way impact on doctrine.  In the CofE the apoc. books are inserted in the center and are called "good books for spritual study, etc., but not inspired in the same manner as the rest."



Posted By: Angela
Date Posted: 19 May 2006 at 12:05pm

Well, I was raised in a dual household.  I remember apocrypha being read as scripture by my aunts.  I also realize that in early Christianity there were many texts, such as the Gnostic texts that were rejected due to their incompatibility with the body of the texts.  We use the KJV in my own church.  The reason being its the most accurate of the bible translations.  However we must allow for the possibility of lost texts even prior to the Birth of our Lord. 

66 books by over 40 authors is a daunting task by any council.  I do not think there was any maliciousness in the Council of Nicea when agreeing on the Bible.  The most important thing is that we continue to delve into its depths and look outside to further gain our sense of belief and truth.



Posted By: Servetus
Date Posted: 19 May 2006 at 12:06pm

(Alibaba)  �The Bible has some 40 plus authors.  One of the proofs of the divine inspiration of Scripture is that 40 plus authors could write such a book that is so unform in its doctrine - how beautifully these various men wrote (under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit), a 66-book document that consistently teaches montheism, salvation by God's grace, andthe coming forth of the Messiah, Jesus, to pay the penalty of sin (compare Genesis 3:15 and Isa. 53 for instance).�

 

Interesting parenthetical aside, under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit.�  I suppose that would be worth mentioning.  Otherwise, the �amens� coming from what are ostensibly orthodox Christians on this board, including the arbiters of orthodoxy, to that part of Cyril�s statement which reads �the Bible was written by men� would seem quite inexplicable. 

Serv 



Posted By: Patty
Date Posted: 19 May 2006 at 12:18pm

Not by me, Servie, not by me!

Patty



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Patty

I don't know what the future holds....but I know who holds the future.


Posted By: Patty
Date Posted: 19 May 2006 at 12:21pm

Angela said:

"I also realize that in early Christianity there were many texts, such as the Gnostic texts "

Angela, my friend, the Gnostic texts were researched extensively and found to be extemely heretical.  Have you read them?  They are a real eye-opener as far as "unbelievers" go.  'Course, that's only my humble opinion.

Patty



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Patty

I don't know what the future holds....but I know who holds the future.


Posted By: Suleyman
Date Posted: 19 May 2006 at 12:35pm
Muslims should be careful SO CAREFUL on Bible,there are so many ayats being untouched and same as revealed from Allah,by the way one denies the whole bible then becomes Khafir...some ayats in the bible really touch the hearts...


Posted By: Angela
Date Posted: 19 May 2006 at 12:45pm
Originally posted by Patty Patty wrote:

Angela said:

"I also realize that in early Christianity there were many texts, such as the Gnostic texts "

Angela, my friend, the Gnostic texts were researched extensively and found to be extemely heretical.  Have you read them?  They are a real eye-opener as far as "unbelievers" go.  'Course, that's only my humble opinion.

Patty

I've read a few.....you are right, there needed to be a consolidation and canonization of texts.  But, I don't think we should reject a text just because its not in the 66.  Look at the wealth of knowledge coming out of the dead sea scrolls.  Some discoveries are obviously something to question, like the Gospel of Judas.  But each should be evaluated on its own merits. 



Posted By: Yankovich
Date Posted: 19 May 2006 at 3:19pm
The so-called Gospel of Judas has been debunked by the Roman Catholic Church and proven a Gnostic forgery, probably written sometime after 300 AD - hardly something you'd want to canonize.

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GETTING TO THE TRUTH!


Posted By: Angela
Date Posted: 19 May 2006 at 3:28pm
I was using it as an example.  The Gospel of Judas is an obvious forgery.  When between the Garden of Gethsemane and his suicide did he have an opportunity to write a Gospel clearing himself?  Of course its a forgery.....but that's its merit.  I was talking about taking each one and looking over it before its just dismissed without reason.


Posted By: Yankovich
Date Posted: 19 May 2006 at 3:30pm
Angela, are you a Muslim or Christian?  Isn't that what the early Christians did?  I mean, they looked them over and decided which ones were authentic and which ones were not.  There were church councils that decided that, I'm sure.

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GETTING TO THE TRUTH!


Posted By: Angela
Date Posted: 19 May 2006 at 3:38pm

But, there were how many texts lost by 350AD, that's 320 years of possibilities, in a world without internet, printing presses and newspapers.  Jesus sent his Apostles out into the world to teach....that means we cannot escape the possibility there are things that have been lost.

John 10:16

And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.



Posted By: Yankovich
Date Posted: 19 May 2006 at 3:40pm

Angela,

I teach Bible studies.  The verse you refer is Jesus talking to his disciples who were Jews.  The other sheep not of the Jewish fold were the Gentiles.  The one fold is the Christian Church which is made up of both Jewish and Gentile believers in Christ.  The Gentiles being grafted in to the Church.

 

John 10:16

And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

 

 



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GETTING TO THE TRUTH!


Posted By: Angela
Date Posted: 19 May 2006 at 3:49pm

But, you are saying there is NO WAY that in 320 years, something could have been lost???????  Amazing since my mother can't even find her birth certificate and is going to have to order a new one and its only been 5 years since she had to last break it out.  (And no she didn't lose it in a move)



Posted By: Yankovich
Date Posted: 19 May 2006 at 3:50pm

Angela, your mother isn't God.  He has His ways of keeping His Word safe.  After all, didn't He say, His Word will stand forever?  Don't you believe in the keeping power of God?

Well,I'm off to the movies. Take care



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GETTING TO THE TRUTH!


Posted By: George
Date Posted: 19 May 2006 at 4:55pm

Salman,

Regarding the article.

Deedat then produces a reproduction of a page from a magazine entitled Awake dating back some twenty-three years published by the Jehovah's Witnesses  (non-Orthodox Christian minority) which quotes a secular magazine Look to the effect that there are some "modern students" who "say" that there are probably "50,000 errors in the Bible".

Very significantly no mention is made of the identity of these so-called modern students, nor is even the slightest evidence given of just a sample of this alleged abundance of errors. We can only presume that this allegation is purely rhetorical and stems from excessive prejudice against the Bible and all that it teaches.

Unfortunately those who share this prejudice willy-nilly swallow anything they read against the Bible - no matter how far-fetched or absurd it may be. In the same way Deedat takes as established fact any charge he reads against the Bible without the slightest effort to verify it. We find it hard to take him seriously when he says:

We do not have the time and space to go into the tens of thousands of - grave or minor - defects that the authors of the Revised Standard Version (RSV) have attempted to revise. (Deedat, Is the Bible God's Word? p.l4).

 

What he means is that he does not know of tens of thousands of errors in the Bible. Of these alleged fifty thousand defects he produces just four for our consideration. Now we must presume that a man with such an alleged wealth of errors at his disposal will be able to provide, in just four cases, very substantial evidence of total corruption in the Bible. We are also surely entitled to presuppose that these four examples will be the very best he can produce. Let us examine them.

 

a). The first - and presumably foremost - "error" in the Bible is allegedly found in Isaiah 7.14:

 

Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign: Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel. Isaiah 7.14 (KJV).

 

In the RSV we read instead of the word virgin that a young woman would conceive and bear a son. According to Deedat, this is supposed to be one of the foremost errors in the Bible.

 

The word in the original Hebrew is almah - a word found in every Hebrew text of Isaiah. Therefore there is no change of any nature in the original text. The issue is purely one of interpretation and translation. The common Hebrew word for virgin is bethulah whereas almah refers to a young woman - and always an unmarried one. So the RSV translation is a perfectly good literal rendering of the word. But, as there are always difficulties translating from one language to another, and as a good translator will try to convey the real meaning of the original, most English translations translate the word as virgin. The reason is that the context of the word demands such an interpretation. (Muslims who have translated the Qur'an into English have often experienced similar problems with the original Arabic text. A literal rendering of a word or text may lose the implied meani ng in the original language).

 

The conception of the child was to be a sign to Israel. Now there would be no sign in the simple conception of a child in the womb of an unmarried woman. Such a thing is commonplace throughout the world. The sign is clearly that a virgin would conceive and bear a son. That would be a real sign - and so it was when Jesus Christ fulfilled this prophecy by being conceived of the Virgin Mary.

 

Isaiah uses the word almah rather than bethulah because the latter word not only means a virgin but also a chaste widow (as in Joel 1.8). Those who translate it as a young woman (so the RSV) give a literal rendering of the word whereas those who translate it as virgin (so the KJV) give its meaning in its context. Either way the young woman was a virgin as Mary duly was when Jesus was conceived. The issue is purely one of translation and interpretation from the original Hebrew into English. It has absolutely nothing to do with the textual integrity of the Bible as such. So Deedat's first point falls entirely to the ground.

 

b). His second text is John 3.16 which reads in the King James Version as follows:

 

For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. John 3.16

 

In the RSV we read that he gave his only Son and Deedat charges that the omission of the word "begotten" proves that the Bible has been changed. Once again, however, this is purely a matter of interpretation and translation for the original Greek word properly means unique. Either way there is no difference between "only Son" and "only begotten Son" for both are fair translations of the original Greek and make the same point: Jesus is the unique Son of God. (We cannot understand Deedat's claim that the RSV has brought the Bible nearer to the Qur'an which denies that Jesus is the Son of God. In the RSV the fact that he is indeed the unique Son of God is emphasized in the same terms as in the KJV). We need to emphasize once again that there is no change in the original Greek text and that the issue is purely one of interpretation and translation. So Deedat's second point falls away as well.

 

To illustrate our point further we can refer to Deedat's quote from Surah 19.88 where we read that Christians say that God Most Gracious has begotten a Son. He has taken this from Yusuf Ali's translation of the Qur'an. Now in the translations of Pickethall, Muhammad Ali and Maulana Daryabadi, we do not find the word begotten but rather taken. If Deedat's line of reasoning is to be believed, then here is evidence that the Qur'an, too, has been changed!

 

We know our Muslim readers will immediately tell us that these are only English translations and that the original Arabic has not been changed even though the word "begotten" is not found in the other versions of the Qur'an. So we in turn plead with you to be quite realistic about this as well - nothing can be said against the integrity of the Bible just because the word "begotten", as in the Qur'an, is only found in one translation and not in another.

 

c). Deedat's third example is, we admit, one of the defects the RSV set out to correct. In 1 John 5.7 in the KJV we find a verse outlining the unity of the Father, Word and Holy Ghost which is omitted in the RSV. It appears that this verse was originally set out as a marginal note in an early text and that it was mistaken by later transcribers as part of the actual text. It is omitted in all modern translations because we now have older texts of greater authority where it is not found.

 

Deedat suggests that this verse is the closest approximation to what the Christians call their Holy Trinity in the encyclopedia called the BIBLE (Deedat, Is the Bible God's Word?, p.16). If it was, or alternatively, if the whole doctrine of the Trinity was based on this one text alone, then indeed this would be a matter for very serious consideration. On the contrary any honest expositor of Biblical theology will freely admit - as all Catholics, Protestants and other Christians uniformly do - that the doctrine of the Trinity is the only doctrine of God that can be obtained from the teaching of the Bible as a whole. Indeed the following verse is a far closer approximation to and definition of the doctrine of the Trinity than the spurious verse

 

Go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit. Matthew 2.19

 

Only one, singular name of the three persons is referred to. In the Bible the word "name" used in such a context refers to the nature and character of the person or place so described. So Jesus speaks of only one name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit - implying an absolute unity between them - and of only one name - implying a total similarity of character and essence. This verse is thoroughly Trinitarian in content and emphasis and therefore, as 1 John 5.7 merely endorses it, we do not see what effect the omission of this verse in modern translations has on Christian doctrine at all. Accordingly it is not worthy of any form of serious consideration.

 

d). His fourth point is such an outstanding fallacy that we marvel at his abysmal ignorance. He suggests that the "inspired" authors of the canonical Gospels did not record a single word about the ASCENSION of Jesus (Deedat, Is the Bible God's Word?, p.19). This claim is made pursuant to a reference to two statements about the ascension of Jesus in the Gospels of Mark and Luke which the RSV has identified as being among the variant readings we have earlier referred to. Apart from these verses the Gospel writers allegedly make no reference of any nature whatsoever to the ascension. On the contrary we find that all four knew of it perfectly well. John has no less than eleven references to it. In his Gospel Jesus says:

 

I am ascending to my Father and to your Father, to my God and to your God. John 20.17

 

Luke not only wrote his Gospel but also the Book of Acts and in the latter book the first thing he mentions is the ascension of Jesus to heaven:

 

And when Jesus had said this, as they were looking on, he was lifted up, and a cloud took him out of their sight. Acts 1.9

 

Matthew and Mark regularly speak of the second coming of Jesus from heaven (see, e.g., Matthew 26. 64 and Mark 14.62). It is difficult to see how Jesus could come from heaven if he had not ascended there in the first place.

 

In conclusion we must point out that the passages Mark 16. 9-20 and John 8. 1-11 have not been expunged from the Bible and later restored as Deedat suggests. In the RSV translation they are now included in the text because scholars are persuaded that they are indeed part of the original text. The truth of the matter is that in our oldest scripts they are found in some texts and not in others. The RSV editors are not tampering with the Bible as Deedat has suggested - they are merely trying to bring our English translations as close as possible to the original texts - unlike the editors of Uthman's reclension of the Qur'an who deemed it more expedient simply to destroy anything that varied in any way with their preferred text.

 

Finally it proves nothing to state that all the original manuscripts - those on which the books of the Bible were written for the first time - are now lost and have perished for the same is true of the very first texts of the Qur'an. The oldest text of the Qur'an still extant dates from the second century after the Hijrah and is compiled on vellum in the early al-mail Arabic script. Other early Qur'ans are in Kufic script and date from the same time as well.

 

Let me point out once again.  We are talking about a translation and not any changes in the original text.  I have read several English translations of the Qur'an and they are all different.  Could I say comparing one to the other that the Muslims have tampered with the Qur'an and made changes to it?  Since this is what Deedat is claiming, I could make the same claim against the Qur'an.

 

Peace



Posted By: Patty
Date Posted: 19 May 2006 at 7:25pm

To All,

I'm very sorry to have to be gone for awhile.  I received word this afternoon that my Father, who is in a nursing home, is dying.  The nurse told me I should come home.  So I'm leaving on a flight soon.  I will check in when I get back.  My Father loves ALL people.  He is a very compassionate and kind man.  So many people he has helped during his life.  We could all learn so much from him...he had no place in his heart for bigotry or hatred.  He's my hero.  I hope I can see him one more time.  I will be back, God willing.

Sincerely,

Patty



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Patty

I don't know what the future holds....but I know who holds the future.


Posted By: Suleyman
Date Posted: 19 May 2006 at 10:26pm
May Allah help you sister,our prays are with you...take care...


Posted By: BMZ
Date Posted: 19 May 2006 at 10:34pm

Patty,

I am saddened to hear that and please be strong. May God Almighty bless him and ease his pain.

I hope that you be at his bedside and be able to look into his eyes, he into yours and talk to your dear father. Amen

Please drop a note if you can. God bless.

Sincerely

BMZ



Posted By: salman
Date Posted: 19 May 2006 at 11:31pm

Originally posted by Cyril Cyril wrote:

It is amusing to hear on a Muslim forum of "50 000 errors" in the Bible, which is a book written by men, when there are a number of errors in the Quran supposedly written by God.

ok, so you do believe that Qur'an is the word of God. then how can  there be errors in the word of God? you think that God is imperfect? how can God make errors? I think you need to know in details what God really means. you are among the atheists i think.



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It is better to be alone than to be in bad company.


Posted By: salman
Date Posted: 19 May 2006 at 11:37pm
Originally posted by Alibaba Alibaba wrote:

The Quran on the other hand was supposedly created in Heaven, right?  Yet I recently read an article which asserts that there are many geographical and historical errors in the Quran, and that it also is not very intelligible in Arabic (but of course, I'm not an Arabic speaking person, so I can't confirm that).

even you, alibaba, how can  there be errors in the word of God? you think that God is imperfect? how can God make errors? I think you need to know in details what God really means. you are among the atheists i think.



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It is better to be alone than to be in bad company.


Posted By: salman
Date Posted: 19 May 2006 at 11:43pm

Originally posted by Suleyman Suleyman wrote:

Muslims should be careful SO CAREFUL on Bible,there are so many ayats being untouched and same as revealed from Allah,by the way one denies the whole bible then becomes Khafir...some ayats in the bible really touch the hearts...

brother suleyman, we muslims are to believe that the Bible which was revealed to Prophet Jesus (may peace be upon him) in the original form is the word of God. but we muslims are NOT to believe in the current bible as it has been fabricated and tampered by many people after it was revealed.



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It is better to be alone than to be in bad company.


Posted By: salman
Date Posted: 19 May 2006 at 11:46pm
Originally posted by salman salman wrote:

Originally posted by Suleyman Suleyman wrote:

Muslims should be careful SO CAREFUL on Bible,there are so many ayats being untouched and same as revealed from Allah,by the way one denies the whole bible then becomes Khafir...some ayats in the bible really touch the hearts...

brother suleyman, we muslims are to believe that the Bible which was revealed to Prophet Jesus (may peace be upon him) in the original form is the word of God. but we muslims are NOT to believe in the current bible as it has been fabricated and tampered by many people after it was revealed.

hence there are 50,000 errors in the bible as it has been tampered and fabricated by many people after it was revealed



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It is better to be alone than to be in bad company.


Posted By: DavidC
Date Posted: 20 May 2006 at 2:42am
Ths is what I find in the Qu'ran about the subject:

Al-'Ankabut (The Spider)

29:46 And dispute ye not with the people of the book, except with means better (than mere disputation), unless it be with those of them who inflict wrong (and injury): but say, "We believe in the revelation which has come down to us and in that which came down to you; Our Allah and your Allah is one; and it is to Him we bow (in Islam)."

So it appears Muslims are indeed called to believe in the Bible.

I also find where the Prophet Muhummad  would regularly imitate the People of the Book in areas where the Qu'ran provided insufficient clarity:

007.072.799 - Dress -  -  -  -

Narrated Ibn 'Abbas

The Prophet used to copy the people of the Scriptures in matters in which there was no order from Allah. The people of the Scripture used to let their hair hang down while the pagans used to part their hair. So the Prophet let his hair hang down first, but later on he parted it.

So it seems both the Prophet and God himself still find value in the Christian scriptures.



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Christian; Wesleyan M.Div.


Posted By: Suleyman
Date Posted: 20 May 2006 at 4:39am

I agree with wise DavidC may Allah bless him and his family,we muslims respect Bible ayats,of course we do not practice with but there are so many ayats still same in the bible,respecting and caring on Bible is also a respect to Allah...keep on your reading your Qur'an but be careful how you state words on Bible...it is an wise issue...Scholars gave fatwa about a muslim if totally rejects The Bible then may come Khafir...

We  muslims believe all of the prophets and books for their unchanged parts and saying;Islam is the final destiny,the end of the family story,why we do not meet on a new page including a family dinner each other....



Posted By: salman
Date Posted: 20 May 2006 at 4:51am
we muslims are to believe that the Bible which was revealed to Prophet Jesus (may peace be upon him) in the original form is the word of God. but we muslims are NOT to believe in the current bible as it has been fabricated and tampered by many people after it was revealed.

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It is better to be alone than to be in bad company.


Posted By: salman
Date Posted: 20 May 2006 at 4:56am

Originally posted by DavidC DavidC wrote:

Ths is what I find in the Qu'ran about the subject:

Al-'Ankabut (The Spider)

29:46 And dispute ye not with the people of the book, except with means better (than mere disputation), unless it be with those of them who inflict wrong (and injury): but say, "We believe in the revelation which has come down to us and in that which came down to you; Our Allah and your Allah is one; and it is to Him we bow (in Islam)."

So it appears Muslims are indeed called to believe in the Bible.


we muslims are to believe that the Bible which was revealed to Prophet Jesus (may peace be upon him) in the original form is the word of God. but we muslims are NOT to believe in the current bible as it has been fabricated and tampered by many people after it was revealed.

 



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It is better to be alone than to be in bad company.


Posted By: salman
Date Posted: 20 May 2006 at 4:57am
Originally posted by Suleyman Suleyman wrote:

Scholars gave fatwa about a muslim if totally rejects The Bible then may come Khafir...

we muslims are to believe that the Bible which was revealed to Prophet Jesus (may peace be upon him) in the original form is the word of God. but we muslims are NOT to believe in the current bible as it has been fabricated and tampered by many people after it was revealed.



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It is better to be alone than to be in bad company.


Posted By: Suleyman
Date Posted: 20 May 2006 at 5:00am

Brother i am talking about the ayats in the Bible,not the whole Bible...some ayats are still same and you can't reject,you must believe and trust but act with Qur'an...this is the issue,the point...



Posted By: salman
Date Posted: 20 May 2006 at 5:03am

Originally posted by DavidC DavidC wrote:



Narrated Ibn 'Abbas

The Prophet used to copy the people of the Scriptures in matters in which there was no order from Allah. The people of the Scripture used to let their hair hang down while the pagans used to part their hair. So the Prophet let his hair hang down first, but later on he parted it.

So it seems both the Prophet and God himself still find value in the Christian scriptures.

really, i don't know from where you got this hadith. there is no such hadith as such. you have made it yourself. the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) never imitated the style of christians and pagans. in fact, what he told was to cut the mustaches and grow beards so that you do exactly opposite of what the pagans do. and the Prophet's hair were curly and touched his earlobes, but he never imitated the christians, in fact he cursed those people who imitated the christians and those who grew long hair like them just to look good.



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It is better to be alone than to be in bad company.


Posted By: Suleyman
Date Posted: 20 May 2006 at 5:05am
The hadith is real...


Posted By: salman
Date Posted: 20 May 2006 at 5:06am
Originally posted by Suleyman Suleyman wrote:

Brother i am talking about the ayats in the Bible,not the whole Bible...some ayats are still same and you can't reject,you must believe and trust but act with Qur'an...this is the issue,the point...

brother suleyman, since the current bible has is distorted and tampered, it is just not possible to differentiate the verses from God and those which have been written by men. it all has been mixed up and now it is hard to realize which are the original verses of God and which have been written by men.



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It is better to be alone than to be in bad company.


Posted By: salman
Date Posted: 20 May 2006 at 5:08am

Originally posted by Suleyman Suleyman wrote:

The hadith is real...

it is hard to believe that such a hadith can be real, i feel it is not real, but somebody has made it himself



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It is better to be alone than to be in bad company.


Posted By: Suleyman
Date Posted: 20 May 2006 at 5:10am

Yes this is why i say we should not comment on the name of Bible,

U are right that we can't:it is just not possible to differentiate the verses from God and those which have been written by men

Then we should keep our silence bacs our words can come accross to a real ayat in the Bible..

Wa salaam...



Posted By: salman
Date Posted: 20 May 2006 at 5:14am
Originally posted by Suleyman Suleyman wrote:

Yes this is why i say we should not comment on the name of Bible,

U are right that we can't:it is just not possible to differentiate the verses from God and those which have been written by men

Then we should keep our silence bacs our words can come accross to a real ayat in the Bible..

Wa salaam...

50,000 errors in the Bible are the errors committed by men, and NOT by God, i hope you understand what i am trying to say brother.



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It is better to be alone than to be in bad company.


Posted By: BMZ
Date Posted: 20 May 2006 at 6:17am

Salman,

Suleyman has rightly said,"Brother i am talking about the ayats in the Bible,not the whole Bible...some ayats are still same and you can't reject,you must believe and trust but act with Qur'an...this is the issue,the point..."

You can find many verses in the Bible which are common with Qur'aan. For example the Ten Commandments, goodness to parents, righteousness, love and the Laws and repentance to God Almighty.

Although the Qur'aan never mentions the Bible by name, but you can find parts of the Torah, Injeel and Zaboor written in it.

The title of the post will naturally result in some adverse comments and that should be understandable. 

Best Regards & Salaam Alaikum

BMZ

 



Posted By: DavidC
Date Posted: 20 May 2006 at 6:56am
Salman, I did not make up the hadith.  It came from our own IslamiCity hadith search.  007.072.799 for your reference.  Perhaps it is one of the less reliable hadith; I don't know.

I do not think you are accusing me of forgery.  I read your post as showing genuine surprise and curiosity.  We have had plenty of collegial conversations, and am certain your statement was not accusing me of blasphemy.  I take your statement as a product of English language skills and friendly academic challenge.

I want to be helpful by finding items of interest, but I do not want to take things out of context or imply an incorrect interpretation.  Perhaps you could help by following up on my citation and finding out how Muslim scholars interpret it.

On the other Qu'ranic ayat,  I know how Muslims feel about biblical discrepancies.  Muhummad and the Qu'ran, however, came four centuries after the biblical texts were set at Nicea and I believe we can find copies identical to those in use in 8th century Arabia. 

God in his wisdom surely knew which versions of the Book were used by the Prophet Muhummad and those were the ones referred to in Qu'ran.  Your theory about the biblical discrepancies would only make sense if God himself was unaware of the problem when the Qu'ran was dictated and of course the existence of biblical error is directly stated in Qu'ran.

I assume "dispute by better means" indicates to compare Qu'ran with Bible, and to use the Qu'ran as a criterion to discern error in the Bible.  Since the Christian schools of thought extant in the 8th century did not read the Bible literally as Muslims do the Qu'ran the injunction to "believe" in the Bible would not mean to trust every word.  Perhaps  Muslims are supposed to read historical Biblke as they do Psalms - non-literal, poetic literature.

I suspect there are additional ayat that provide information not yet brought to the discussion by either of us, and that these will make the meaning clear.  Again, if you could help by providing some research in addition to opinion it would be helpful.  I realize my efforts are only dabbling in Islam and I post them as a request for someone to help me understand authentic tasfeer, not to somehow promote my amateur understanding as being somehow correct or even on point.

I also suspect your feelings that these ayat do not "fit" somehow is probably correct.  Hopefully a little scholarship by you or other Muslim members will clear this up for all of us.


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Christian; Wesleyan M.Div.


Posted By: BMZ
Date Posted: 20 May 2006 at 7:13am

David,

I did translate this when requesting ABrah on another thread:

"Wa-laa tujaa-day-lu ahlal-kitaab-ay il-la bil-lati hya ahsano, il-lal-lazeena zala-mu min-hum." (Part of Verse 46 Surah 29 Al-An-kaboot),

which means: "Argue with the people of the books in the best possible manner, excluding those who are extremely harsh."

(The above translation is done by me, so please do not compare with various English translations)

Best Regards

BMZ



Posted By: salman
Date Posted: 20 May 2006 at 7:23am
Originally posted by bmzsp bmzsp wrote:

David,

I did translate this when requesting ABrah on another thread:

"Wa-laa tujaa-day-lu ahlal-kitaab-ay il-la bil-lati hya ahsano, il-lal-lazeena zala-mu min-hum." (Part of Verse 46 Surah 29 Al-An-kaboot),

which means: "Argue with the people of the books in the best possible manner, excluding those who are extremely harsh."

(The above translation is done by me, so please do not compare with various English translations)

No offence. bmzsp, you should not take the Qur'an according to your convenience by making your own translations. are you a mufti or an islamic scholar? please, ... don't do such things, refer to the translations of the translators like yousuf and then quote the translations.



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It is better to be alone than to be in bad company.


Posted By: BMZ
Date Posted: 20 May 2006 at 8:10am

Salman,

From you: "No offence. bmzsp, you should not take the Qur'an according to your convenience by making your own translations. are you a mufti or an islamic scholar? please, please... don't do such things, refer to the translations of the translators like yousuf and then quote the translations."

I am flabbergasted by your comments. Since you believe that translation should come only from translators, please tell me which translation of the following verses is correct and which one would you accept?

Surah 38 Su'ad: Translation by N. J. Dawood

V38:30-33 "We gave Solomon to david; and he was a good and faithful servant. When, one evening, his prancing steeds were ranged before him, he said: 'MY love for good things has distracted me from the remembrance of my Lord; for now the sun has vanished behind the veil of darkness. Bring me back my chargers!' And with this he fell to hacking their legs and necks.

Now look at the translation of the same verses by Yusuf Ali:

"To David, We gave Solomon (for a son), How excellent in Our Service! Ever did he turn (to Us)! Behold, there were brought before him, at eventide, Coursers of the highest breeding, and swift of foot; and he said,"Truly Do I love the love of Good with a view to the glory of my Lord"--until (the sun) was hidden in the veil (of night): "Bring them back to me." Then he began to pass his hand over (their) legs and their necks."

Dawood's translation suggests that Solomon was so mad and furious upon missing his prayers that he chopped their legs and necks, killing them all.

Yusuf Ali's translation suggests that he did his prayers first and then patted their necks and ran his hands down their legs lovingly.

Who do you believe is correct. This striking difference in opinion led me to learn Arabic and Qur'aan sixteen years ago. Now I don't need a translation.

If you wish to understand Qur'aan, it's best if you read and understand it in Arabic for it's language in Arabic is given by God Almighty and it's translation is done by men. I have already had enough of the Muftis and scholars, who differ in opinions among themselves.

By the way, thanks for your response. I would love to hear from you which translation would you go with?

Salaam Aalikum

BMZ



Posted By: AbRah2006
Date Posted: 20 May 2006 at 9:03am
Dear Salman....There are so many errors and contradictions in the Bible. I will like to expose them if the Christians dare enough to ask me to expose them!  I will expose one by one if they like to debate!

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God does not forbid you from showing kindness and dealing justly with those who have not fought you about religion and have not driven you out of your homes. God loves just dealers. (Quran, 60:8)


Posted By: salman
Date Posted: 20 May 2006 at 9:03am
Originally posted by bmzsp bmzsp wrote:

Salman,

From you: "No offence. bmzsp, you should not take the Qur'an according to your convenience by making your own translations. are you a mufti or an islamic scholar? please, please... don't do such things, refer to the translations of the translators like yousuf and then quote the translations."

I am flabbergasted by your comments. Since you believe that translation should come only from translators, please tell me which translation of the following verses is correct and which one would you accept?

Surah 38 Su'ad: Translation by N. J. Dawood

V38:30-33 "We gave Solomon to david; and he was a good and faithful servant. When, one evening, his prancing steeds were ranged before him, he said: 'MY love for good things has distracted me from the remembrance of my Lord; for now the sun has vanished behind the veil of darkness. Bring me back my chargers!' And with this he fell to hacking their legs and necks.

Now look at the translation of the same verses by Yusuf Ali:

"To David, We gave Solomon (for a son), How excellent in Our Service! Ever did he turn (to Us)! Behold, there were brought before him, at eventide, Coursers of the highest breeding, and swift of foot; and he said,"Truly Do I love the love of Good with a view to the glory of my Lord"--until (the sun) was hidden in the veil (of night): "Bring them back to me." Then he began to pass his hand over (their) legs and their necks."

Dawood's translation suggests that Solomon was so mad and furious upon missing his prayers that he chopped their legs and necks, killing them all.

Yusuf Ali's translation suggests that he did his prayers first and then patted their necks and ran his hands down their legs lovingly.

Who do you believe is correct. This striking difference in opinion led me to learn Arabic and Qur'aan sixteen years ago. Now I don't need a translation.

If you wish to understand Qur'aan, it's best if you read and understand it in Arabic for it's language in Arabic is given by God Almighty and it's translation is done by men. I have already had enough of the Muftis and scholars, who differ in opinions among themselves.

By the way, thanks for your response. I would love to hear from you which translation would you go with?

Salaam Aalikum

BMZ

i would go for yusuf ali's translation as his translation is most used all over the world.

i just wanted to say that you should not make your own translations. you should refer to the translators and then prefer which one you would choose but you should not make your own translations.



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It is better to be alone than to be in bad company.


Posted By: George
Date Posted: 20 May 2006 at 9:09am
Originally posted by salman salman wrote:

Originally posted by Suleyman Suleyman wrote:

Yes this is why i say we should not comment on the name of Bible,

U are right that we can't:it is just not possible to differentiate the verses from God and those which have been written by men

Then we should keep our silence bacs our words can come accross to a real ayat in the Bible..

Wa salaam...

50,000 errors in the Bible are the errors committed by men, and NOT by God, i hope you understand what i am trying to say brother.

Salman,

You aren't getting it.  We are merely talking about the KJV translation.  If you don't have faith in that one, then you have two choices:  Choose another translation--NASB or NKJV, or another.

Your second choice is to read the original Greek manuscripts and compare the Greek with the KJV.

I know a seminary graduate who did just that.  He read the Greek and compared it to the KJV.  He has great faith in the KJV because of his research.

The JW people who came up with the figure 50,000 cannot support their claim and besides that, they were not even experts in the Greek language.

In addition, the KJV wasn't in existance during the time of your prophet, so it is not an issue.  The fact remains that the Gospel that was in existance during that time is the same one we have today, so when the Qur'an commends that Gospel it is commending the one we have today.

Do you understand now?

God asked His people to write down His revelations and they did and God protected those revelations.  If you don't think that He could protect them, then you are giving men more power than you give to God.

Peace



Posted By: AbRah2006
Date Posted: 20 May 2006 at 9:12am
To BMZ......If you really want to know the Holy Quran, you should study it under the supervision of the scholars of the Holy Quran  because some of its contents  require good knowlegde of Islam in order to understand them.

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God does not forbid you from showing kindness and dealing justly with those who have not fought you about religion and have not driven you out of your homes. God loves just dealers. (Quran, 60:8)


Posted By: AbRah2006
Date Posted: 20 May 2006 at 9:13am
Dear Salman....There are so many errors and contradictions in the Bible due to errors, mistranslation, misintepretation, illegal addition etc. I will like to expose them if the Christians dare enough to ask me to expose them!  I will expose one by one if they like to debate!


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God does not forbid you from showing kindness and dealing justly with those who have not fought you about religion and have not driven you out of your homes. God loves just dealers. (Quran, 60:8)


Posted By: Cyril
Date Posted: 20 May 2006 at 9:16am
Salman

Here are a few errors in the Quran:

Everyone knows the ears are the organs for hearing, the eyes for seeing and the brains for thinking. In the Quran the organ for thinking is the heart. An old Semitic belief already found in the Bible.

Sumerians and Babylonians believed that a god created man by taking mud, shaping it into a human being and animating it by magical power. That concept has been taken up by the Bible then the Quran, in total contradiction with modern science. No school or university teaches the origin of man according to the Quran.

The seven heavens are an ancient tradition found in pagan religions as Hinduism.

Greeks and Semites believed masculine semen came from the kidneys. That error is in the Bible and the Quran says semen "comes from "between the loins and the ribs" which is the area where the kidneys are situated.







Posted By: BMZ
Date Posted: 20 May 2006 at 9:19am

Salman,

Thanks for the right choice: " i would go for yusuf ali's translation as his translation is most used all over the world."

Don't go for Yusuf Ali's translation only just because it is used mostly in the world. Read as many as you can for knowledge.



Posted By: George
Date Posted: 20 May 2006 at 9:31am

Salman,

Even Muslims believe that the Qur'an has human errors.  Please see:

 

Peace



Posted By: BMZ
Date Posted: 20 May 2006 at 9:47am

George,

I find that reasoning and research by the Polemics and their standard, in finding errors in the Qur'aan, able.



Posted By: AbRah2006
Date Posted: 20 May 2006 at 9:59am

[QUOTE=Cyril]Salman

Cyril's statement: Here are a few errors in the Quran:

Everyone knows the ears are the organs for hearing, the eyes for seeing and the brains for thinking. In the Quran the organ for thinking is the heart. An old Semitic belief already found in the Bible.

My response: Do you know what the meaning of heart is? Heart is the seat of intellect or imagination http://www.thefreedictionary.com/heart - http://www.thefreedictionary.com/heart

------------------------------------------------------------ ------



Cyril's statement: Sumerians and Babylonians believed that a god created man by taking mud, shaping it into a human being and animating it by magical power. That concept has been taken up by the Bible then the Quran, in total contradiction with modern science. No school or university teaches the origin of man according to the Quran.

My response: What contradiction? Even science fails to explain the existence of man. According to science Charles Darwin claimed that man's ancestors are apes but science fails to produce the proof because of the missing link between man and apes. After all there are no fossils that link man to apes! Why are the apes who live in the zoo still stupid by human standard eventhough they are exposed to human beings? Why are the human beings  so special when you compare them with other creatures? 

Humans have a highly developed brain capable of abstract reasoning, language, and introspection. This, combined with an erect body carriage that frees their upper limbs for manipulating objects, has allowed humans to make greater use of tools than any other species.

Why don't those apes go to schools to study to get a degree and become a doctor to treat you Cyril?We know that chimpanzee and human DNA is 96% identical but it also means that we are different creatures!

Can you explain the sudden disappearance of dinosaurs and the sudden appearance of man after the dinosaurs were gone?

To say that man is a descendant of apes is an insult to Adam, Eve and all mankind!

Even science fails to explain how the electron gets a negative charge! Who does give the negative to electron? Who does create the proton, neutron and electron?

------------------------------------------------------------ ------

The seven heavens are an ancient tradition found in pagan religions as Hinduism.

Greeks and Semites believed masculine semen came from the kidneys. That error is in the Bible and the Quran says semen "comes from "between the loins and the ribs" which is the area where the kidneys are situated.
------------------------------------------------------------ ------

My response: http://www.nzmuslim.net/modules.php?name=Sections&sop=viewarticle&artid=22 - http://www.nzmuslim.net/modules.php?name=Sections&sop=vi ewarticle&artid=22

MAN CREATED FROM A DROP EMITTED FROM BETWEEN THE BACK BONE AND THE RIBS

�Now let man but think From what he is created !

He is created from A drop emitted � Proceeding from between The back bone and the ribs.� [AI-Qur�an 86:5-7]

1 The reference for this statement is the video tape titled �Thus is the Truth. For a copy this video tape contact the Islamic Research Foundation.
In embryonic stages, the reproductive organs of the male and female, i.e. the testicles and the ovaries, begin their development near the kidney exactly between the spinal column and the eleventh and twelfth ribs. Later they descend; the female gonads (testicles) stop in the pelvis while the male gonads (testicles) continue their descent before birth to reach the scrotum through the inguinal canal. Even during the embryonic stage after the descent of the reproductive organ, these organs receive their nerve supply and blood supply from the Aorta, which is in the area between the backbone (spinal column) and the ribs. Even the lymphatic drainage goes to the same area.






 



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God does not forbid you from showing kindness and dealing justly with those who have not fought you about religion and have not driven you out of your homes. God loves just dealers. (Quran, 60:8)


Posted By: George
Date Posted: 20 May 2006 at 10:01am
Originally posted by bmzsp bmzsp wrote:

George,

I find that reasoning and research by the Polemics and their standard, in finding errors in the Qur'aan, able.

The article comes from Muslims, BMZ.  Also another point.  When the Qur'an was revealed it did not have vowel points.  According to my Arabic speaking friend vowel points can change the meaning of the words.  In other words, whoever added the vowels were men.  So you have the interpretation of men incorporated into the Qur'an.

Another good point is that the vast majority of Muslims cannot read or understand Arabic--even today's Arabic--much less ancient Arabic in the dialect in which it was given.  These Muslims rely on interpretations of the Qur'an in the language they speak.  In other words they are reading the thoughts of men.  Also, they rely on commentaries written by men to tell them what they are reading and how to interpret what they are reading even when they are reading it in a language they do understand.

Peace



Posted By: AbRah2006
Date Posted: 20 May 2006 at 10:24am
[QUOTE=George]

Salman,

Even Muslims believe that the Qur'an has human errors.  Please see:

 

___________________________________________________________

My response: Do you know  who is behind the website? He is the one who claim that his name is "Rashad Khalifa," but few know the true identity of this wretch. The most interesting fact about this dajjal is that he was NEVER Muslim. Rashad Khalifa was a Coptic Christian from Egypt and when Allah sent that wretch to the Hell-Fire, he died a Coptic Christian. His real name was Richard Kalif and he was registered as Richard both in Egypt and in America. He pretended to be a Muslim to mislead Muslims.

For example:

Always controversial, Rashad Khalifa, was an "absolutist" of hadith rejection in Islam.  He did NOT restrict his rejection to ahadith which he felt were illogical, contrary to natural laws or historical facts, or contradictory among themselves or with the Quran. He is the enemy of Islam!

His stated position was absolutist:

"Hadith (oral) and Sunna (actions) were invented and attributed to the Prophet. Hadith and Sunna are satanic innovations . . . ."  

My question: Why do you George always quote websites that pretend to be a Muslim website to slander Islam? I have read some of your suggested webs and I find that they are against Islam and Muslims!



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God does not forbid you from showing kindness and dealing justly with those who have not fought you about religion and have not driven you out of your homes. God loves just dealers. (Quran, 60:8)


Posted By: Cyril
Date Posted: 20 May 2006 at 1:53pm
Abrah

Your quote: "My response: Do you know what the meaning of heart is? Heart is the seat of intellect or imagination"

I know that figuratively the heart is the seat of intellect and imagination. That view comes straight from the Bible and the ancient belief in the heart being mistaken for the brains. 
One explanation for that mistake is that the heart responds to stimuli from the brains which responds to what it perceives. The Ancients thought that it was the heart that perceived and directly responded.
Every time the heart is mentioned in the Quran as being the seat of reasoning two other organs are also mentioned, the ears and the eyes. Those are not used figuratively but for their anatomic function.

Who told you that science fails to explain the origin of man? From my school days I never heard that science could not explain it. What it cannot explain yet are more or less important details of its explanation.
God has chosen to have man emerge from an ape-like creature. When you see the complexity of a living organism, be it the body of an ape, you can realize that it is more gratifying to descend from such a complex creature than from a piece of mud.
Could you tell me what is the physical difference between an ape and a man that could show that one of them could not be descended from the other, or better from a common ancestor? Of course I am not talking about our superior intelligence which God granted us.

The Quran says a drop of semen is emitted. It can only be emitted from a working male gland, which is situated in the scrotum not in the kidney area.
The plain explanation that it is the reproduction of a ancient belief, as with the heart, the creation from mud, the 7 heavens and others, seems evident.



Posted By: BMZ
Date Posted: 20 May 2006 at 8:48pm

George,

You wrote, "Even Muslims believe that the Qur'an has human errors."

I had read the link which you had provided and I can tell you those  were no mistakes.

Qur'aan is printed in various scripts. For the people of the Sub-Continent, it is made easier by following "Urdu" or "Persian" style of writing, For the Indonesian Archiplego and Malaysia, it is printed in Javi (Javanese) style of writing. Arabs read Qur'aan printed in Arabic style. Most of the educated Muslims can read all styles.

If you have a Muslim friend nearby, you can ask him to show you various printing styles, if he has some. Whichever way it is written, the reading and pronunciation is the same all over the world. You can also do this by visiting any mosque in the U.S. They will have different styles of printing and you can easily spot the difference in the script styles.

That site, at the link you provided, has marked differences in the printing styles compared with the Arabic style and most likely it was done on a print for the people of the Sub-Continent.

Those differences are not mistakes. Those are just to facilitate reading by non-Arab Muslims. I don't have any software to do that comparison but hope someone would post different print styles for your knowledge.

However, this link would be helpful. If you look at various styles, you would know the difference in writing but that does not mean that there are differences in Qur'aan if all the writing styles appear different.

http://www.usna.edu/Users/humss/bwheeler/quran/quran_index.html - http://www.usna.edu/Users/humss/bwheeler/quran/quran_index.h tml

Many Muslims including yours truly can read almost all the written styles.



Posted By: AbRah2006
Date Posted: 21 May 2006 at 2:31am

[QUOTE=Cyril] Abrah

Your quote: "My response: Do you know what the meaning of heart is? Heart is the seat of intellect or imagination"

Cyril's statement:I know that figuratively the heart is the seat of intellect and imagination. That view comes straight from the Bible and the ancient belief in the heart being mistaken for the brains. 
One explanation for that mistake is that the heart responds to stimuli from the brains which responds to what it perceives. The Ancients thought that it was the heart that perceived and directly responded.
Every time the heart is mentioned in the Quran as being the seat of reasoning two other organs are also mentioned, the ears and the eyes. Those are not used figuratively but for their anatomic function.

My response: Please be  specific by showing me the specific Quranic verses so that we can refer to those verses as our references. So far you produce nothing! Do not beat around the bush....A bear may after you hahahaahah!

___________________________________________


Cyril's statement: Who told you that science fails to explain the origin of man? From my school days I never heard that science could not explain it. What it cannot explain yet are more or less important details of its explanation.
God has chosen to have man emerge from an ape-like creature. When you see the complexity of a living organism, be it the body of an ape, you can realize that it is more gratifying to descend from such a complex creature than from a piece of mud.
Could you tell me what is the physical difference between an ape and a man that could show that one of them could not be descended from the other, or better from a common ancestor? Of course I am not talking about our superior intelligence which God granted us.

 

My response: Why do you call that animal an ape? Why do you call a man a human being? Why do you differentiate them? How do you know that?
What are your proofs to refute my statement? So far you have no proofs to support your statement! Why did God grant us superior intelligence. Why didn't God give it to the animals and plants? Why do we human beings can differentiate right from wrong? Why those apes cannot differentiate right from wrong eventhough they are exposed to human beings? Why didn't apes develop into intelligent creatures?

Almost all evidence for human evolution is extremely questionable. Scientists theorize that we evolved from quadrepedal ape like creatures, (hominoids), into bi-pedal erect walking ape like creatures, (hominids), to eventually become ourselves. Many fossils have been found that are claimed to represent the various stages of evolution from quadruped to biped, yet there are 'missing links' between these forms.

Evolution demands that these missing links are authentic, for they would represent the transition from one group into a higher group. What does Charles Darwin say about missing links? "

Darwin states that if evolution is true, then there must be numberless intermediate links between species. Yet, Darwin himself admits that there are NO finely graduated links between these species that have been discovered. He then goes on to say that the geologic record is hiding these transitional forms from us. How could a belief system, based on unobserved events with no proof to back it up, become so prevalent in society? In more than 100 years that have passed since Darwin, we have more than quadrupled the number of fossil species that we have found and these links still have yet to be announced. Why was Darwin's theory accepted at all when by education he was not a scientist, but a theologian?

If these links were found, how would science know where to classify these fossils? Darwinian evolutionary change happens so slow that the changes would be so minute that it would be impossible to distinguish one species from another, let alone when one species became another.

Modem science has proven through the archaeological record that the geologic column does not contain these missing links or any evidence for gradual change via evolution. Do the evolutionists give up?

Now I dare you Cyril to show me the missing links between man and ape! And I dare you to show me the fossils that link man to ape! I want the concrete proofs!

 I think you are right by saying that your ancestors were apes....I am lucky because my ancestors were Eve and Adam who were the first human beings created by God!

__________________________________________________________
Cyril's statement: The Quran says a drop of semen is emitted. It can only be emitted from a working male gland, which is situated in the scrotum not in the kidney area.
The plain explanation that it is the reproduction of a ancient belief, as with the heart, the creation from mud, the 7 heavens and others, seems evident.

My response:

MAN CREATED FROM A DROP EMITTED FROM BETWEEN THE BACK BONE AND THE RIBS http://www.nzmuslim.net/article-22-page6.html - http://www.nzmuslim.net/article-22-page6.html

�Now let man but think From what he is created !
He is created from A drop emitted � Proceeding from between The back bone and the ribs.� [AI-Qur�an 86:5-7]

 The reference for this statement is the video tape titled �Thus is the Truth. For a copy this video tape contact the Islamic Research Foundation.
In embryonic stages, the reproductive organs of the male and female, i.e. the testicles and the ovaries, begin their development near the kidney exactly between the spinal column and the eleventh and twelfth ribs. Later they descend; the female gonads (testicles) stop in the pelvis while the male gonads (testicles) continue their descent before birth to reach the scrotum through the inguinal canal. Even during the embryonic stage after the descent of the reproductive organ, these organs receive their nerve supply and blood supply from the Aorta, which is in the area between the backbone (spinal column) and the ribs. Even the lymphatic drainage goes to the same area.

HUMAN BEINGS CREATED FROM NUTRA� (MINUTE QUANTITY OF LIQUID):

The Holy Qur�an mentions no less than eleven times that the human being is created from �Nutfa�, which means a minute quantity of liquid or a trickle of liquid which remains after emptying a cup. This is mentioned in several verses of the Qur�an including 22:5 and 23:13.

Science has confirmed in recent times that only one out of an average of three million sperms is required
1. The same is also mentioned in the Qur�an in 16:4, 18:37. 35:11, 36:77, 40:67, 53:46, 75:37, and 80:19. For fertilizing the ovum. This means that only a 1/300 millionth part or 0.000000003% of the quantity of sperms that are emitted is required for fertilization.

HUMAN BEINGS CREATED FROM �SULALA� (quintessence of liquids):

�And made his progeny From a quintessence Of the nature of A fluid despised�. [AI-Qur�an 32:8]

MAN CREATED FROM �NUTFATUN AMSHAAJ� (Mingled liquids)

Consider the following Qur�anic verse:

�Verily We created Man from a drop Of mingled sperm.� [AI-Qur�an 76:2]

The Arabic word �Nutfatin Amshaajin� means mingled liquids. According to some commentators of the Qur�an, mingled liquid refers to the male or female agents or liquids. After mixture of male and female gamete, the zygote still remains �Nutfa�. Mingled liquids can also refer to spermatic fluid that is formed of various secretions which come from various glands.

Therefore �Nutfatin Amsaj�, i.e. a minute quantity of mingled fluids refers to the male and female gametes (germinal fluids or cells) and part of the surrounding fluids.


 



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God does not forbid you from showing kindness and dealing justly with those who have not fought you about religion and have not driven you out of your homes. God loves just dealers. (Quran, 60:8)


Posted By: salman
Date Posted: 21 May 2006 at 7:14am
Originally posted by George George wrote:

Salman,

Even Muslims believe that the Qur'an has human errors.  Please see:

 

Peace

how can  there be errors in the word of God? they think that God is imperfect? how can God make errors? I think they need to know in details what God really means. they cannot be called as muslims. they are among the atheists i think.

 



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It is better to be alone than to be in bad company.


Posted By: salman
Date Posted: 21 May 2006 at 7:25am

Originally posted by AbRah2006 AbRah2006 wrote:

Dear Salman....There are so many errors and contradictions in the Bible due to errors, mistranslation, misintepretation, illegal addition etc. I will like to expose them if the Christians dare enough to ask me to expose them!  I will expose one by one if they like to debate!

sure... please expose them, don't hesitate, didn't you see cyril how he did not hesitate to make mockery of the Qur'an by saying that some verses regarding organs were errors, but he was then PROVED WRONG. be free to expose the errors in Bible.... go ahead......



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It is better to be alone than to be in bad company.


Posted By: George
Date Posted: 21 May 2006 at 8:33am

Salman,

Do you know understand that we are talking about a translation and not the original manuscripts?

Any mistranslations have been corrected.  Christians continually try to make the translations in tune with the original manuscripts just as the Muslims continually try to make the translations in tune with the original manuscripts of the Qur'an.

Do you get it now?

When I first read the Qur'an I read one from the public library.  I asked BMZ is it was a good and accurate translation because I wanted to buy one.  He say, no, that it was not a good translation and recommended that I buy Ali's and that is what I did.

There are not 50,000 errors in the KJV.  Even the JW's couldn't come up with them.  Scribal errors do not count, I mean a misspelling, or a transposition of a number.

This is the beauty in having so many copies of the New Testament.  Scholars are able to compare them and determine any misspellings, transpositions of numbers, determine gloss errors (notes in margins).  That is why the New Testament has been judged as about 98% accurate to the original manuscripts.

This, BTW, cannot be done with the Qur'an because Ulthman destroyed all inerrant copies.  You have nothing to compare your current Qur'an with.

The Qur'anic manuscripts found in Yemen have proven serious allterations in the Qur'an.

Peace



Posted By: Cyril
Date Posted: 21 May 2006 at 8:40am
Abrah

I am sorry I did not provide the verses because I assumed that most Muslims know the Quran. The verses about the heart are in different places, and already to be found in Baqara. Here some of them:

2:7) God has sealed their hearts and their ears, and on their eyes is a veil...

7:179) We have made for hell a great number of jinns and men. They have hearts with which they do not understand, they have eyes with which they do not see, and they have ears with which they do not hear...

22:46) Haven't... they hearts to understand or ears to hear? ...

Your quote:"Why didn't apes develop into intelligent creatures?:"

My answer: because God decided it like that. If you are not satisfied with God's work, this forum is not the place to settle your questioning him.
I am not a scientist so I cannot provide you with the proofs you are asking for. But I am not dumb and I have noticed that the theory of evolution is the only one taught in schools, that the creation story according to the Quran is not taught in schools, that new discoveries are always corroborating evolution and never the contrary.
Which theory do you put forward instead of evolution? Every time I asked that question I got no answer. And tell me why the creation story according to the Quran is not taught in universities and schools.

I cannot provide you with the proofs that you require, except the proof that nearly every educated person on earth believes in it.
Can you provide me the proofs that Adam and Eve existed, in which place on earth and at which time?
I asked you also to tell me the relevant biological differences between an ape and a human being if you find any.




Posted By: AbRah2006
Date Posted: 21 May 2006 at 10:03am

Cyril's statement:
I am sorry I did not provide the verses because I assumed that most Muslims know the Quran. The verses about the heart are in different places, and already to be found in Baqara. Here some of them:

2:7) God has sealed their hearts and their ears, and on their eyes is a veil...

7:179) We have made for hell a great number of jinns and men. They have hearts with which they do not understand, they have eyes with which they do not see, and they have ears with which they do not hear...

22:46) Haven't... they hearts to understand or ears to hear? ...

My response: From the dictionary we find that the meaning of heart is (1) the organ that maintains the flow of blood (2)the seat of intellect etc.

 If we study the Quranic verses above we will find that heart as the seat of intellect is the most suitable for the verses above. If we insert heart as an organ that maintain the flow of blood into the Quranic verses we will find that it will not fit the meaning of the verses!

------------------------------------------------------------ ------

Your quote:"Why didn't apes develop into intelligent creatures?:"

Cyril's statement: because God decided it like that. If you are not satisfied with God's work, this forum is not the place to settle your questioning him.

My response: I am not questioning God for I believe that Eve and Adam are human beings. I am questioning you for you have claimed that the ancestors of man were apes! You  have apes as your ancestors. I am lucky to have Eve and Adam who were human beings as my ancestors. You are degrading them by calling them apes!

_______________________________________________________
Cyril's statement: I am not a scientist so I cannot provide you with the proofs you are asking for. But I am not dumb and I have noticed that the theory of evolution is the only one taught in schools, that the creation story according to the Quran is not taught in schools, that new discoveries are always corroborating evolution and never the contrary. Which theory do you put forward instead of evolution? Every time I asked that question I got no answer. And tell me why the creation story according to the Quran is not taught in universities and schools.

I cannot provide you with the proofs that you require, except the proof that nearly every educated person on earth believes in it.

My response: I am not against the theory of evolution. I am against the statement of Charles Darwin who says that apes are the ancestors of man. It is an irony that he and the scientists who support him have no proofs to support their claim!  What are your proofs to support them?

------------------------------------------------------------ -----

Cyril's statement: Can you provide me the proofs that Adam and Eve existed, in which place on earth and at which time?

My response: Adam and Eve existed because we are their descendants! Please read Quran Chapter 2:30-39 and Chapter 7:11-25

Can you provide me the proofs that Moses had splitted the Red Sea into two parts... which part of the sea and at which time?Do you know the exact spot where Moses had beaten the sea? Do you have any digital pictures showing Moses splitting the sea?   As a Muslim I believe that Moses was a prophet of Allah and he had splitted the Red Sea into two parts to save the Israelites!

------------------------------------------------------------ ---
Cyril's statement: I asked you also to tell me the relevant biological differences between an ape and a human being if you find any.

My response: You did not ask me to tell you about the biological differences! I quote your own word 'Could you tell me what is the physical difference between an ape and a man that could show that one of them could not be descended from the other, or better from a common ancestor? '

 My answer: Apes have 24 pairs of chromosomes but we have 23 pairs of chromosomes so man and ape are different creatures! Apes need to have 23 pairs of chromosones to become a man! And you Cyril need to add a pair of chromosones to yourself if you wish to become an ape! 




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God does not forbid you from showing kindness and dealing justly with those who have not fought you about religion and have not driven you out of your homes. God loves just dealers. (Quran, 60:8)


Posted By: George
Date Posted: 22 May 2006 at 7:55am

salman,

The Christian New Testament is exceptional in its reliability and trustworthiness and survival down through history.  It is unrivaled in manuscript authority.  There is more documentary evidence for the reliability of the New Testament than for any other book from the ancient world!! 

 

Christianity has today in our possession 5,300 known Greek manuscripts of the New Testament, another 10,000 Latin Vulgates, and 9,300 other early copies (MSS), giving us more than 24,000 manuscript copies of portions of the New Testament in existence today!

 

A manuscript is a hand-written copy over against a printed copy.  Of the Christian New Testament alone, there are more than 24,000 manuscripts.  Not versions of the Bible, but manuscript copies.  There are some variant readings, the vast majority of which are strictly grammatical.  These readings are spread through more than 5,300 manuscripts, so that a variant spelling of one letter of one word in one verse in 3,000 manuscripts is counted as 3,000 "errors."  The NT is 98.33 percent pure and there are no variant readings which affect Christian doctrine.

 

Do you understand now?

 

Peace

 



Posted By: Yankovich
Date Posted: 22 May 2006 at 8:17am

Hey, George, thanks for all that information about the reliability of the New Testament manuscripts.  I'm going to share that with my Bible Study class.  Great info.  I've always been amazed when people question the authenticity of the New Testament writings - there's a good book to read on the subject by F.  Bruce.  Also, I used this site as a study guide:

http://www.carm.org/evidence/textualevidence.htm - http://www.carm.org/evidence/textualevidence.htm



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GETTING TO THE TRUTH!


Posted By: BMZ
Date Posted: 22 May 2006 at 8:35am

George,

From you:"This, BTW, cannot be done with the Qur'an because Ulthman destroyed all inerrant copies.  You have nothing to compare your current Qur'an with."

FYI, there was no compiled Qur'aan in the form of a hardbound book, when Uthman started his work. Nobody had any solid copy of Qur'aan. He collected, gathered and sifted. Once the Qur'aan was compiled in the order set and given by the prophet, Uthman burnt up all surplus material. There were no copies of Qur'aan burnt. There is therefore no Papyrus 786 or a 2-inch square papyrus 45 available.

Qur'aan was already memorised by Prophet, Companions, AbuBakr, Umar, Uthman, Ali and many other Companions. Anyway, the Qur'aan has been around there since 1427 years and we are very happy with that.

From you: "The Qur'anic manuscripts found in Yemen have proven serious allterations in the Qur'an"

We have been hearing of that for years and nothing has been proven. Looks like the German experts on Arabic are still busy with their "findings".

 



Posted By: BMZ
Date Posted: 22 May 2006 at 8:48am

George, from you to Salman:

"The Christian New Testament is exceptional in its reliability and trustworthiness and survival down through history.  It is unrivaled in manuscript authority.  There is more documentary evidence for the reliability of the New Testament than for any other book from the ancient world!!"

The Bhagvad and Geeta of the Hindus are there for 5,000 years and there hasn't been a single change. How would you rate the 3,000 year-old Jewish Bible or the Jewish Scriptures from whom the Christians got an Old Testament Old Testament? Would you consider that Book more reliable than the New Testament?  

From you, George: "There are some variant readings, the vast majority of which are strictly grammatical." What ado you think about the variants expressed by Matthew, Mark, Luke and John in reporting various events?  

 

The doctrine is unaffected because it was written by others specifically to teach something on which there is no word or teaching of Jesus available.

 

For example, the triune or tri-unity was never taught by Jesus, the great teacher, the greatest Rabbi but that was added on by the gospel writers. The accounts of arrest differ and the accounts of killing and finding the empty tomb also differ.

 

Do you understand now?



Posted By: George
Date Posted: 22 May 2006 at 9:57am
Originally posted by Yankovich Yankovich wrote:

Hey, George, thanks for all that information about the reliability of the New Testament manuscripts.  I'm going to share that with my Bible Study class.  Great info.  I've always been amazed when people question the authenticity of the New Testament writings - there's a good book to read on the subject by F.  Bruce.  Also, I used this site as a study guide:

http://www.carm.org/evidence/textualevidence.htm - http://www.carm.org/evidence/textualevidence.htm

Hi Yank,

I use carm a lot.  I like their articles because they are for the most part very short.  It is a good place for Mulims to learn Christianity.

Peace



Posted By: George
Date Posted: 22 May 2006 at 10:00am
Originally posted by bmzsp bmzsp wrote:

George, from you to Salman:

"The Christian New Testament is exceptional in its reliability and trustworthiness and survival down through history.  It is unrivaled in manuscript authority.  There is more documentary evidence for the reliability of the New Testament than for any other book from the ancient world!!"

The Bhagvad and Geeta of the Hindus are there for 5,000 years and there hasn't been a single change. How would you rate the 3,000 year-old Jewish Bible or the Jewish Scriptures from whom the Christians got an Old Testament Old Testament? Would you consider that Book more reliable than the New Testament?  

From you, George: "There are some variant readings, the vast majority of which are strictly grammatical." What ado you think about the variants expressed by Matthew, Mark, Luke and John in reporting various events?  

 

The doctrine is unaffected because it was written by others specifically to teach something on which there is no word or teaching of Jesus available.

 

For example, the triune or tri-unity was never taught by Jesus, the great teacher, the greatest Rabbi but that was added on by the gospel writers. The accounts of arrest differ and the accounts of killing and finding the empty tomb also differ.

 

Do you understand now?

How do explain that the great teacher, the greatest Rabbi, taught that there was a Father, He was the Son, and that there is the Holy Spirit of God?

Peace



Posted By: Cyril
Date Posted: 22 May 2006 at 10:22am
Abrah

What can I discuss with you as you take myths and legends for real history?
Why don't you believe also in the myths and legends of the Aztecs, Sumerians, Vikings, Hindus, Greeks or Romans?
Whatever cannot be proven can be believed, so why not believe in anything?


Posted By: AbRah2006
Date Posted: 23 May 2006 at 3:35am

Cyril's statement: Abrah.
What can I discuss with you as you take myths and legends for real history?
Why don't you believe also in the myths and legends of the Aztecs, Sumerians, Vikings, Hindus, Greeks or Romans?
Whatever cannot be proven can be believed, so why not believe in anything?

------------------------------------------------------------ ----

My response: You fail to give me the concrete proofs to support your wild claim that man is a descendant of apes so I quote your own words 'Whatever cannot be proven can be believed, so why not believe in anything?'

I don't believe in the myths and legends of the Aztecs, Sumerians, Vikings, Hindus, Greeks or Romans but they are the  popular subject of the National Discovery etc. 

How do you know what is real, myths or legends? If history does not record a life of a common people, does he or she become a myth or legend? Does it mean that he or she does not exist? If history does not mention your parents' names in the history books, does it mean that they are a myth or legend so they do not exist? It is an irony that you exist!



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God does not forbid you from showing kindness and dealing justly with those who have not fought you about religion and have not driven you out of your homes. God loves just dealers. (Quran, 60:8)


Posted By: AbRah2006
Date Posted: 23 May 2006 at 3:54am

50,000 Errors in the Bible

(1)God good to all, or just a few?

PSA 145:9 The LORD is good to all: and his tender mercies are over all his works.

JER 13:14 And I will dash them one against another, even the fathers and the sons together, saith the LORD: I will not pity,
nor spare, nor have mercy, but destroy them.

(2)War or Peace?

EXO 15:3 The LORD is a man of war: the LORD is his name.

ROM 15:33 Now the God of peace be with you all. Amen.

(3)Is Jesus equal to or lesser than?

JOH 10:30 I and my Father are one.

JOH 14:28 Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice,
because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.

(4)In the Bible Bats are birds to the biblical God (Leviticus 11:13-19 & Deuteronomy 14:11-18). According to science bats are mammals.

(5) Some birds have four feet (Leviticus 11:20-21). lol.....How can birds have FOUR feet? ....

Moses peace be upon him predicted the corruption/tampering of the Law (Bible) after his death(Deuteronomy 31:25-29).The Book of Moses predicted that the Law (Bible) will get corrupted.  The Book of Jeremiah which came approximately 826 years after did indeed confirm this corruption.

The entire Bible is corrupted and unreliable and is mostly filled with man-made laws and corruption!  "`How can you say, "We [the Jews] are wise, for we have the law of the LORD," when actually the lying pen of the scribes has handled it falsely?' (From the NIV Bible, Jeremiah 8:8)"

The Revised Standard Version makes it even clearer: "How can you say, 'We are wise, and the law of the LORD is with us'? But, behold, the false pen of the scribes has made it into a lie(From the RSV Bible, Jeremiah 8:8)"

In either translation, we clearly see that the Jews had so much corrupted the Bible with their man-made cultural laws, that they had turned the Bible into a lie!

In Islam Allah is the All Wise God so He will not contradict His own Word. So who do corrupt the Bible? Answer : The keepers of the Bible corrupt it into a lie. The contradictions are a consequence of the corruption of the Bible.

That is why God sends the Holy Quran as His final revelation to all mankind through His last messenger the prophet Muhammad to replace the  Bible, Torah etc!

Allah Himself has promised to guard the Qur�an: "We have, without doubt, sent down the Message; and We will assuredly Guard it (from corruption) [Al-Qur�an 15:9].

The Quran is Allah's greatest blessing for you . It is the fulfillment of His promise to Adam and his descendants: 'there shall come to you guidance from Me, and whatsoever follows My Guidance no fear shall be on them, neither shall they sorrow' (Quran  al Baqarah 2:38).




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God does not forbid you from showing kindness and dealing justly with those who have not fought you about religion and have not driven you out of your homes. God loves just dealers. (Quran, 60:8)


Posted By: fredifreeloader
Date Posted: 23 May 2006 at 4:23am

abrah said:

(5) Some birds have four feet (Leviticus 11:20-21). lol.....How can birds have FOUR feet? ....

there is no mention of birds in these verses!  the reference is to winged insects! - more of your silly nonsense exposed, abrah!



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for i am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth - romans 1: 16


Posted By: AbRah2006
Date Posted: 23 May 2006 at 4:40am
[QUOTE=fredifreeloader]

abrah said:

(5) Some birds have four feet (Leviticus 11:20-21). lol.....How can birds have FOUR feet? there is no mention of birds in these verses!  the reference is to winged insects! - more of your silly nonsense exposed, abrah!

------------------------------------------------------------ -----

My response:  I quote your Bible....

Leviticus 11:20 All fowls that creep, going upon all four, shall be an abomination unto you.
Leviticus 11:21 Yet these may ye eat of every flying creeping thing that goeth upon all four, which have legs above their feet, to leap withal upon the earth;
Leviticus 11:22 Even these of them ye may eat; the locust after his kind, and the bald locust after his kind, and the beetle after his kind, and the grasshopper after his kind.

Leviticus 11:23 But all other flying creeping things, which have four feet, shall be an abomination unto you.

Leviticus 11:20 All fowls ......What is a fowl?

A fowl is a bird of any kind, although some types of birds use the word specifically in their names (for example, Guineafowl and Peafowl).

As a generic plural, fowl often refers collectively to domestic farm birds (such as chickens, turkeys and geese (see also poultry)) or to wild game birds (such as wild ducks or pheasants). Some fowl, such as geese and ducks, are also referred to as waterfowl.

The word fowl has cognates in other Germanic languages, e.g., German Vogel, Dutch vogel, Danish fugl and Gothic fugls, all of which mean simply "bird".

Hey Fredi...Does the God of the Bible know the fowls? ....

I quote Fredi's statement: "there is no mention of birds in these verses!  the reference is to winged insects! - more of your silly nonsense exposed, abrah!"

My response to Fredi: According to science the thorax of an insect has six legs (one pair per segment) so an insect has six feet! Does your God of the Bible know science?

Fredi....I am laughing at you now! ....How can the fowls have four feet? How can the insects have four feet? You are entertaining me now



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God does not forbid you from showing kindness and dealing justly with those who have not fought you about religion and have not driven you out of your homes. God loves just dealers. (Quran, 60:8)


Posted By: fredifreeloader
Date Posted: 23 May 2006 at 6:12am
calm down, abrah, settle down old son, no need to get over-excited.  the bible is not a scientific treatise (please dont tell me that the quran is).  things were related by God the way people understood them.  if he had revealed everything, there would be no need for any research, would there?  (sun setting in a pool of muddy water on earth, indeed - quran 18: 86 - as if the whole sun could fit into a pool on earth, i never heard anything so stupid in my life)

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for i am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth - romans 1: 16


Posted By: AbRah2006
Date Posted: 23 May 2006 at 6:50am

[QUOTE=fredifreeloader]calm down, abrah, settle down old son, no need to get over-excited.  the bible is not a scientific treatise (please dont tell me that the quran is).  things were related by God the way people understood them.  if he had revealed everything, there would be no need for any research, would there?  (sun setting in a pool of muddy water on earth, indeed - quran 18: 86 - as if the whole sun could fit into a pool on earth, i never heard anything so stupid in my life)

------------------------------------------------------------ ----

My response:

To the west of the town of Lychnis is a lake170 square miles in area, fed by underground springs that issue through limestone rocks and give out murky water.   Both town and lake are now called Ochrida, about 50 miles west of Monastir.   The water is so dark that the river which forms the outlet of the lake to the north is called the Black Drin.  Looking at the sunset from the town, the observer would see the sun set a pool of murky water (18:86).  It was a question before the boy Alexander -- the dreamy, impulsive, fearless rider -- whether he would put the barbarous Illyricans to the sword or show them mercy.  He showed true discrimination and statesmanship.  He punished the guilty but showed kindness to the innocent, and thus consolidated his power in the west.  This I construe to be the meaning of (Noble Verses) 18:86-87; otherwise these verses do not seem to be perfectly clear

Quran

018.086 Until, when he reached the setting of the sun, he found it set in a spring of murky water: Near it he found a People: We said: "O Zul-qarnain! (thou hast authority,) either to punish them, or to treat them with kindness."

I quote: 'he found it set in a spring of murky water'....Who is he? Zul-qarnain! Therefore Zul-qarnain found it set in a spring of murkey water. The Quran does not say ' Quran found it set in a spring of murkey water'!

Please visit this web that will refute Fredi's statement: http://www.answering-christianity.com/iron_gates.htm - http://www.answering-christianity.com/iron_gates.htm

Hey Fredi your Bible says "He set the earth on its foundations; it can never be moved.   (From the NIV Bible, Psalm 104:5)" ....lol.......According to Science and the Holy Quran the world moves in an orbit around the sun!

Consider the following Qur�anic verse:

�It is He who created The Night and the Day, And the sun and the moon: All (the celestial bodies), each Travelling in an orbit With its own motion�. [AI-Qur�an 21:33]

 



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God does not forbid you from showing kindness and dealing justly with those who have not fought you about religion and have not driven you out of your homes. God loves just dealers. (Quran, 60:8)


Posted By: George
Date Posted: 23 May 2006 at 7:36am

The Qur'ans found in Yemen:

 

Some of the parchment pages in the Yemeni hoard seemed to date back to the seventh and eighth centuries A.D., or Islam's first two centuries -- they were fragments, in other words, of perhaps the oldest Korans in existence. What's more, some of these fragments revealed small but intriguing aberrations from the standard Koranic text. Such aberrations, though not surprising to textual historians, are troublingly at odds with the orthodox Muslim belief that the Koran as it has reached us today is quite simply the perfect, timeless, and unchanging Word of God.

 

http://cremesti.com/amalid/Islam/Yemeni_Ancient_Koranic_Texts.htm - http://cremesti.com/amalid/Islam/Yemeni_Ancient_Koranic_Text s.htm

 

Peace


Posted By: George
Date Posted: 23 May 2006 at 7:40am
Originally posted by bmzsp bmzsp wrote:

George,

From you:"This, BTW, cannot be done with the Qur'an because Ulthman destroyed all inerrant copies.  You have nothing to compare your current Qur'an with."

FYI, there was no compiled Qur'aan in the form of a hardbound book, when Uthman started his work. Nobody had any solid copy of Qur'aan. He collected, gathered and sifted. Once the Qur'aan was compiled in the order set and given by the prophet, Uthman burnt up all surplus material. There were no copies of Qur'aan burnt. There is therefore no Papyrus 786 or a 2-inch square papyrus 45 available.

Qur'aan was already memorised by Prophet, Companions, AbuBakr, Umar, Uthman, Ali and many other Companions. Anyway, the Qur'aan has been around there since 1427 years and we are very happy with that.

From you: "The Qur'anic manuscripts found in Yemen have proven serious allterations in the Qur'an"

We have been hearing of that for years and nothing has been proven. Looks like the German experts on Arabic are still busy with their "findings".

 

BMZ,

It is interesting what you wrote:

FYI, there was no compiled Qur'aan in the form of a hardbound book, when Uthman started his work. Nobody had any solid copy of Qur'aan.

Why would Allah go to all of the trouble to send down the Qur'an to Muhammad and not let him live to see it put into bookform and leave it up to others to do it?

Peace

 



Posted By: fredifreeloader
Date Posted: 23 May 2006 at 8:49am
yeah so why are the yemeni scripts not on open display in some opulent museum as final proof of the "miraculous quran", unchanged and unchangeable since it was first conceived?

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for i am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth - romans 1: 16


Posted By: BMZ
Date Posted: 23 May 2006 at 9:09am

George,

From you: "Why would Allah go to all of the trouble to send down the Qur'an to Muhammad and not let him live to see it put into bookform and leave it up to others to do it?"

Good question: You should ask Paul, Augustine and the other Gospel writers.



Posted By: George
Date Posted: 23 May 2006 at 9:11am
Originally posted by bmzsp bmzsp wrote:

George,

From you: "Why would Allah go to all of the trouble to send down the Qur'an to Muhammad and not let him live to see it put into bookform and leave it up to others to do it?"

Good question: You should ask Paul, Augustine and the other Gospel writers.

Well, I could ask Jesus but I don't think you would like his answer.

Peace



Posted By: BMZ
Date Posted: 23 May 2006 at 9:12am

Fredi,

"yeah so why are the yemeni scripts not on open display in some opulent museum as final proof of the "miraculous quran", unchanged and unchangeable since it was first conceived?"

Yeah! I would love to see that. Fredi, by the way, are you working at the airport terminal or the railway station, free loader!



Posted By: George
Date Posted: 23 May 2006 at 9:37am
Originally posted by bmzsp bmzsp wrote:

Fredi,

"yeah so why are the yemeni scripts not on open display in some opulent museum as final proof of the "miraculous quran", unchanged and unchangeable since it was first conceived?"

Yeah! I would love to see that. Fredi, by the way, are you working at the airport terminal or the railway station, free loader!

The work is still going on.

Peace



Posted By: AbRah2006
Date Posted: 24 May 2006 at 6:49am

50,000 Errors in the Bible:

God be seen?

Exod. 24:9,10; Amos 9:1; Gen. 26:2; and John 14:9
God CAN be seen:
"And I will take away my hand, and thou shalt see my backparts." (Ex. 33:23)
"And the Lord spake to Moses face to face, as a man speaketh to his friend." (Ex. 33:11)
"For I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved." (Gen. 32:30)

God CANNOT be seen:
"No man hath seen God at any time." (John 1:18)
"And he said, Thou canst not see my face; for there shall no man see me and live." (Ex. 33:20)
"Whom no man hath seen nor can see." (1 Tim. 6:16)

Allah (God) is the All Wise so He will not contradict His own Word. The Bible is not the Word of God for the Bible contradict itself. God is the All Merciful so God sends Quran to all mankind to replace the Bible.



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God does not forbid you from showing kindness and dealing justly with those who have not fought you about religion and have not driven you out of your homes. God loves just dealers. (Quran, 60:8)


Posted By: Miriam
Date Posted: 24 May 2006 at 12:28pm

However, the Quran upholds the authority of Christian Scripture, and nowhere indicates that the Gospels, for instance, were lost:

Let the People of the Gospel judge by that which Allah hath revealed therein. Whoso judgeth not by that which Allah hath revealed: such are evil-livers. (5:47, MP)



Posted By: Cyril
Date Posted: 24 May 2006 at 11:25pm
The Quran does not say the Gospels are lost. It says they have been corrupted. Besides it does not say Gospels in the plural, but uses a derived word Injiil which means something like "the Message of Jesus". Where that "Message of Jesus/Injiil" is to be found, that is the question.


Posted By: AbRah2006
Date Posted: 25 May 2006 at 5:01am
In Islam Jesus is God�s Word means that Jesus received injeel that contained the Word of God from God. Other prophets of God such as Moses and Muhammad received the Word of God in the form of the Torah and Quran respectively.

If you and other Christians claim that the OT and NT are the Word of God, then you are wrong for they contain so many errrors and contradictions.Would you attribute those errors to God and Jesus? If the Bible contained conflicting verses would you still consider it to be Holy and the Word of God? Most likely you will say of course not.

I will give you some examples of the corruption of the Bible to support my statement:

1)The God of the Bible allows slavery, including selling your own daughter as a sex slave (Exodus 21:1-11), child abuse (Judges 11:29-40) and Isaiah 13:16), and bashing babies against rocks (Hosea 13:16 & Psalms 137:9).          ; ;  Question: Would you attribute those brutal teachings to Allah(God) and Jesus? 

2)Jesus also promoted the idea that all men should castrate themselves to go to heaven:  "For there are eunuchs, that were so born from their mother's womb: and there are eunuchs, that were made eunuchs by men: and there are eunuchs, that made themselves eunuchs for the kingdom of heaven's sake. He that is able to receive it, let him receive it."  ( http://www.evilbible.com/February.htm#Feb 26 - Matthew 19:12 ASV )

Question: Why don't you Christians castrate yourselves so that you can go to heaven? Would you attribute those brutal teachings to Allah(God) and Jesus? 

3)The Biblical Pornography"Yet she multiplied her whoredoms, in calling to remembrance the days of her youth, wherein she had played the harlot in the land of Egypt. For she doted upon their paramours, whose flesh is as the flesh of asses, and whose issue is like the issue of horses." ( http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Eze/Eze023.html#19 - Ezekiel 23: 19-21 )

"and lusted after her paramours there, whose members were like those of donkeys, and whose emission was like that of stallions." (Ezekiel 23: 21, NRSV)Questions: why does God have to describe their adventures in such pornographic detail? Does God love porn?

What parent would want their children reading http://www.calvin.edu/cgi-bin/bible?version=KJV&passage=Ezekiel+23:20-21 - verse 21 about comparing the size of men's penises to donkey genitals and the sperm flow to that of horse issues?

As any adult religious parent might believe, such lustful descriptions, if culled from secular sources, would corrupt children should they happen to read them. Should it not also corrupt children if read from the Bible?

Would you attribute those pornographic teachings to Allah(God) and Jesus? 

4)Eat Human Feces!

"And thou shalt eat it as barley cakes, and thou shalt bake it with dung that cometh out of man, in their sight. And the LORD said, Even thus shall the children of Israel eat their defiled bread among the Gentiles, whither I will drive them." ( http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Eze/Eze004.html#12 - Ezekiel 4:12-13 )

Question: How many good Christians today realize that their God has coprophilic tendencies? Would you attribute this teaching to Allah(God) and Jesus? 

5)Eating Dung And Drinking Piss

"But Rabshakeh said unto them, Hath my master sent me to thy master, and to thee, to speak these words? hath he not sent me to the men which sit on the wall, that they may eat their own dung, and drink their own piss with you?" ( http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/2Ki/2Ki018.html#27 - II Kings 18:27 )

Question: How many good Christians today realize that their God has coprophilic tendencies? Would you attribute this teaching to Allah(God) and Jesus? 

6)Boil and Eat Your Son

"And the king said unto her, What aileth thee? And she answered, This woman said unto me, Give thy son, that we may eat him to day, and we will eat my son to morrow. So we boiled my son, and did eat him: and I said unto her on the next day, Give thy son, that we may eat him: and she hath hid her son...." ( http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/2Ki/2Ki006.html#28 - II Kings 6:28-29 )

Would you attribute this cannibalism to Allah(God) and Jesus? 

7)Howl And Strip Naked

"Therefore I will wail and howl, I will go stripped and naked: I will make a wailing like the dragons, and mourning as the owls." ( http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Mic/Mic001.html#8 - Micah 1:8 )

Question: Picture in your mind a religious man of today stripping and running around totally nude and prophesying in public, wailing and hooting at the top of his lungs. No doubt the police would snatch him up in a second while citizens stare in embarrassment. It just goes to show how far we have demeaned ourselves and our bodies as shameful. Would you attribute this teachings to Allah(God) and Jesus? 

8)Raping And Killing

"Every one that is found shall be thrust through; and every one that is joined unto them shall fall by the sword. Their children also shall be dashed to pieces before their eyes; their houses shall be spoiled, and their wives ravished." ( http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Isa/Isa013.html#15 - Isaiah 13:15-16 )

Question: How some people who believe in an infallible Bible can accept these verses as God inspired, or morally uplifting can only give evidence to the blinding nature of belief. For if we believe these words as God inspired, then the killing of children and the raping of wives must also come as an inspiration from the Supreme Being. Would you attribute this brutal teaching to Allah(God) and Jesus? 

9) Christ taught non-resistance
          Matt 5:39/ Matt 26:52
         Christ taught and practiced physical resistance
          Luke 22:36/ John 2:15

Would you attribute this contradictory teachings to Allah(God) and Jesus? 
    

 10) Christ warned his followers not to fear being killed
          Luke 12:4
         Christ himself avoided the Jews for fear of being killed
          John 7:1

        Would you attribute this contradictory teachings to Allah(God) and Jesus? 
 

11)Christ preached his first sermon on the mount
          Matt 5:1,2
         Christ preached his first sermon on the plain
          Luke 6:17,20

 Would you attribute this contradictory teachings to Allah(God) and Jesus? 

12)A woman of Canaan besought Jesus
          Matt 15:22
         It was a Greek woman who besought Him
          Mark 7:26

Would you attribute this contradictory teachings to Allah(God) and Jesus? 

13)Christ is equal with God
           John 10:30/ Phil 2:5
          Christ is not equal with God
           John 14:28/ Matt 24:36

Would you attribute this contradictory teachings to Allah(God) and Jesus? 

14) Jesus was all-powerful
           Matt 28:18/ John 3:35
          Jesus was not all-powerful
           Mark 6:5
Would you attribute this contradictory teachings to Allah(God) and Jesus? 

15) Christ's witness of himself is true.
           John 8:18,14
          Christ's witness of himself is not true.
           John 5:31
     Would you attribute this contradictory teachings to Allah(God) and Jesus? 

Are those Biblical contradictions and immorality above inspired by God? Would you attribute those errors to God and Jesus? If the Bible contained conflicting verses would you still consider it to be Holy and the Word of God?

Note: The earliest Gospel was written about 70 years after Jesus was gone so Jesus was not there to correct the contradictions and errors of the NT!

In Islam Jesus is a great prophet of God so he will not contradict his own words. After all Jesus had received the teachings from Allah (God) Who will never contradict His own Word for Allah is the All Wise. However Jesus' teachings were corrupted by the Christians!

The errors and contradictions of the Bible (the OT and NT) is the cause why Allah(God) sends the Holy Quran as His final revelation to all mankind through His last messenger the prophet Muhammad to replace the  Bible, Torah etc!

Allah Himself has promised to guard the Qur�an: "We have, without doubt, sent down the Message; and We will assuredly Guard it (from corruption) [Al-Qur�an 15:9].




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God does not forbid you from showing kindness and dealing justly with those who have not fought you about religion and have not driven you out of your homes. God loves just dealers. (Quran, 60:8)


Posted By: AbRah2006
Date Posted: 25 May 2006 at 5:06am
Originally posted by Miriam Miriam wrote:

However, the Quran upholds the authority of Christian Scripture, and nowhere indicates that the Gospels, for instance, were lost:

Let the People of the Gospel judge by that which Allah hath revealed therein. Whoso judgeth not by that which Allah hath revealed: such are evil-livers. (5:47, MP)

------------------------------------------------------------ -----

Answer: Surah 3 - Ali 'Imran - THE FAMILY OF 'IMRAN

003.070 Ye People of the Book! Why reject ye the Signs of God, of which ye are (Yourselves) witnesses?

003.071 Ye People of the Book! Why do ye clothe Truth with falsehood, and conceal the Truth, while ye have knowledge?

003.072 A section of the People of the Book say: "Believe in the morning what is revealed to the believers, but reject it at the end of the day; perchance they may (themselves) Turn back;

003.073 "And believe no one unless he follows your religion." Say: "True guidance is the Guidance of God: (Fear ye) Lest a revelation be sent to someone (else) Like unto that which was sent unto you? or that those (Receiving such revelation) should engage you in argument before your Lord?" Say: "All bounties are in the hand of God: He granteth them to whom He pleaseth: And God careth for all, and He knoweth all things."

003.074 For His Mercy He specially chooseth whom He pleaseth; for God is the Lord of bounties unbounded.

003.075 Among the People of the Book are some who, if entrusted with a hoard of gold, will (readily) pay it back; others, who, if entrusted with a single silver coin, will not repay it unless thou constantly stoodest demanding, because, they say, "there is no call on us (to keep faith) with these ignorant (Pagans)." but they tell a lie against God, and (well) they know it.

003.076 Nay.- Those that keep their plighted faith and act aright,-verily God loves those who act aright.

003.077 As for those who sell the faith they owe to God and their own plighted word for a small price, they shall have no portion in the Hereafter: Nor will God deign to) speak to them or look at them on the Day of Judgment, nor will He cleans them (of sin): They shall have a grievous penalty.

003.078 There is among them a section who distort the Book with their tongues: (As they read) you would think it is a part of the Book, but it is no part of the Book; and they say, "That is from God," but it is not from God: It is they who tell a lie against God, and (well) they know it!

003.079 It is not (possible) that a man, to whom is given the Book, and Wisdom, and the prophetic office, should say to people: "Be ye my worshippers rather than God's": on the contrary (He would say) "Be ye worshippers of Him Who is truly the Cherisher of all: For ye have taught the Book and ye have studied it earnestly."

003.080 Nor would he instruct you to take angels and prophets for Lords and patrons. What! would he bid you to unbelief after ye have bowed your will (To God in Islam)?

003.081 Behold! God took the covenant of the prophets, saying: "I give you a Book and Wisdom; then comes to you an apostle, confirming what is with you; do ye believe in him and render him help." God said: "Do ye agree, and take this my Covenant as binding on you?" They said: "We agree." He said: "Then bear witness, and I am with you among the witnesses."

003.082 If any turn back after this, they are perverted transgressors.

003.083 Do they seek for other than the Religion of God?-while all creatures in the heavens and on earth have, willing or unwilling, bowed to His Will (Accepted Islam), and to Him shall they all be brought back.

003.084 Say: "We believe in God, and in what has been revealed to us and what was revealed to Abraham, Isma'il, Isaac, Jacob, and the Tribes, and in (the Books) given to Moses, Jesus, and the prophets, from their Lord: We make no distinction between one and another among them, and to God do we bow our will (in Islam)."

003.085 If anyone desires a religion other than Islam (submission to God), never will it be accepted of him; and in the Hereafter He will be in the ranks of those who have lost (All spiritual good).

003.086 How shall God Guide those who reject Faith after they accepted it and bore witness that the Apostle was true and that Clear Signs had come unto them? but God guides not a people unjust.

003.087 Of such the reward is that on them (rests) the curse of God, of His angels, and of all mankind;-

003.088 In that will they dwell; nor will their penalty be lightened, nor respite be (their lot);-

003.089 Except for those that repent (Even) after that, and make amends; for verily God is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.

003.090 But those who reject Faith after they accepted it, and then go on adding to their defiance of Faith,- never will their repentance be accepted; for they are those who have (of set purpose) gone astray.

003.091 As to those who reject Faith, and die rejecting,- never would be accepted from any such as much gold as the earth contains, though they should offer it for ransom. For such is (in store) a penalty grievous, and they will find no helpers.



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God does not forbid you from showing kindness and dealing justly with those who have not fought you about religion and have not driven you out of your homes. God loves just dealers. (Quran, 60:8)



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