i believe Quran and Bible
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Topic: i believe Quran and Bible
Posted By: muslim153
Subject: i believe Quran and Bible
Date Posted: 03 September 2016 at 10:52am
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Hi please chat with me. I believe in the Quran and also the Bible. I believe Jesus was not God, but as Jesus said in John 8 "there are 2 witnesses, him and The Father." I believe the one called "The Father" is the God of the Quran. It's the same God.
I'd really like to talk to Muslims, or anyone haha. In America people really don't believe in the Quran. But THERE'S MORE SCIENCE AND MATH IN THE QURAN THAN IN THE BIBLE-i mean there's more proving the Quran came from God than evidence for the Bible. I can't believe people grow old but still don't believe in the Quran. Pastors say the Quran is evil etc! That's evil that they say that, because they poison people's minds against the Quran. People believe the Bible with NO evidence (they don't know the evidence) but they won't research the evidence of the Quran!! I think people who don't believe the Quran is true are spiritually dead. |
Replies:
Posted By: ovibos
Date Posted: 14 September 2016 at 2:22am
Hello there muslim153 I'm a muslim from Indonesia, and I love to read both the Quran and the Bible, although I don't believe that all parts of the Bible are inspired from God. In other words, I believe that there are certain parts of the Bible that were not inspired. Anyway, there's a verse in the Quran that explicitly command the muslim to believe in the Scripture that God send down before the Quran, which I presume it as the Book of Moses (not to be confused with the Torah). The verse that I'm talking about is in surah An Nisa 4:136 |
muslim153 wrote:Posted By: asep48garut60
Date Posted: 21 September 2016 at 9:58pm
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Assalaamu�alaikum, dear brother Muslim153,
Yes, I agree with you, I also strongly believe in the Quran and also believed in some parts of the Bible but not as a whole (same with brother Ovibos opinion), because Allah SWT has told me in the Quran QS 4:46 and QS 5:13. The contents of Quran are complete and perfect (QS 6: 114), one of them is able to inspire the development of science of mankind, among others: Evolutionary theory holds that the universe begins with a big explosion (Big Bang), this theory emerged after the 16th century, and the Quran had informed mankind earlier in QS 21:30, because the Quran was revealed around the 6th century. Another theory, as the theory of Newton's Law of Gravity in 1642, whereas about 10 centuries before the Quran has informed in QS 36:38. Now mankind have found that there is magma in the deep of the earth, and the Quran had informed in QS 52: 6, and about other science. By the examples given above, it is sufficient to prove to all people that the Qur'an is true, as well as the greatest miracle sent down by Allah SWT. As for some people who don't believe in the Quran, it's a sunnatullah as mentioned in QS 10: 99.100. Then there are those who insult the Quran or say nasty or whatever they say, it already has the answer in QS 74: 24-26 and QS 61: 8, and now the facts prove that Muslims had spread throughout the world, as well as to prove that the Quran is true and as the greatest miracle that does not exist in other books. Let us together to preach about the truth of the teachings of Islam in accordance with the words of Allah SWT in QS 16: 125-128. Wassalaamu�alaikum. |
Posted By: DavidC
Date Posted: 22 September 2016 at 6:35am
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The books of the Bible and the Qur'an are not comparable. The Bible is more like hadith than it is like the Qu'ran.
Again, the only candidate I can think of for An Nisa 4:136 would be the tablets with the ten commandments spoken directly to Moses by God in Exodus 20. A distant second choice would be the book of proverbs which the Israelites carried out of Egypt. "The Book of Moses" is not a term used by Bible scholars. Exodus contains Moses' narrative, but he dies in it and he couldn't have written about his own death. ------------- Christian; Wesleyan M.Div. |
Posted By: asep48garut60
Date Posted: 22 September 2016 at 5:02pm
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Dear David C, peace be with you !
Thank you for your short explanation, and I believe you've understood about the real mission of the contents of my writing is just to remind about the goodness in attitude towards others. Regards. |
Posted By: 786SalamKhan
Date Posted: 06 October 2016 at 1:17pm
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If you believe the Bible, you must keep in mind, you would not pick up a Quran, and interpret it however way you want.
There are many books in the Bible, the books of the New Testament were written by some of the Apostles of Christ; the http://www.catholic.org/saints/saint.php?saint_id=8 - Twelve , and the https://orthodoxwiki.org/Seventy_Apostles - Seventy . These men either directly knew and were chosen by Christ Himself http://www.drbo.org/x/d?b=drb&bk=47&ch=28&l=19#x - to spread the Gospel and Baptise in the Name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit , or, they directly knew the aforementioned men and also had authority to do what they did. Obviously, the authors of the New Testament, knew what they were writing about, it is not up to someone two thousand years later to believe their own, differing interpretation holds more authority. The authors of the New Testament, and the rest of the Apostles, http://www.drbo.org/x/d?b=drb&bk=60&ch=2&l=14#x - passed on their knowledge http://www.drbo.org/chapter/61003.htm - to whoever they deemed worthy to succeed them . This is known as Sacred Tradition and Apostolic Succession, equivalent to the Hadith and Sunnah in Islam. These Traditions in turn, are recorded in writing by the https://www.catholicculture.org/culture/library/fathers/ - Church Fathers , the earliest of whom would be equivalent to the Salaf in Islam. If you truly accept the Bible, it is now up to you to find the true Church that upholds the Traditions passed down by the Apostles of Christ. |
Posted By: asep48garut60
Date Posted: 07 October 2016 at 1:03am
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Dear 786SalamKhan,
I just ordered by Allah to believe in all books revealed to the Apostles when they were alive that these books actually came from Allah, even believing in the books before the Quran was revealed, it's included into the pillars of faith in Islamic law. Quran 3: 3 and Quran 4: 163 Keep in mind that believing in the books before the Quran it doesn't mean that now I have to follow all of what is on the books before. Book I believe and I always try to run all His commandments is the Quran, because in it there's the promise of Allah about preserve its authenticity, as His word in 15:9. The verse gives a guarantee of purity and authenticity of His words forever. Regards. Asep |
Posted By: 786SalamKhan
Date Posted: 07 October 2016 at 1:26am
If you were to thoroughly delve into my comment, you would realise that the Bible and the Quran cannot both be true. You are saying that before Islam, Christianity was true and God was the Holy Trinity, but now that Islam is here, Islam is true and God is the Tawhid; you present God as some sort of schizophrenic. Why not then join the Bahai or the Ahmadiyyah faith, do you see what my point is? |
Posted By: asep48garut60
Date Posted: 07 October 2016 at 11:45pm
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Dear 786SalamKhan,
I really understand your points, all right I'll explain it in more detail: All Muslims are commanded by God to believe in the messengers before Prophet Muhammad, including Moses, David and Jesus (as mentioned in His Word). Likewise, faithful to their books, books that I mean here the books when they were still alive (as mentioned in His Word), not the books now. ---------------------------------- If you were to thoroughly delve into my comment, you would realise that the Bible and the Quran cannot both be true. You are saying that before Islam, Christianity was true and God was the Holy Trinity, but now that Islam is here, Islam is true and God is the Tawhid; --------------------------------- I've realized that the Bible and the Quran are not the same (The Holy Trinity and Tawhid), but I personally say that there's a Book that's still guaranteed its truth, ie the Quran (as mentioned in His Word), this means that I do not believe in the Bible now, and I just believe in the books at the time His messengers were still alive. ---------------------------- you present God as some sort of schizophrenic. Why not then join the Bahai or the Ahmadiyyah faith, do you see what my point is? ------------------------- I am not presenting God as a kind of schizophrenia, I do not have the slightest inkling as you said. God will never make mistakes, but God has an "Iradah" (will of God), and His will is absolute, anyone can not resist His will, in the Quran there are examples of His words. --------------------------- Why not then join the Bahai or the Ahmadiyyah faith, do you see what my point is? ----------------------- I'm not going to join the Baha'i or the Ahmadiyyah faith, but I will join with Muslims that are still faithfully practice their religion as commanded by Allah (in Quran) and the Prophet Muhammad. Regards, Asep |
Posted By: 786SalamKhan
Date Posted: 08 October 2016 at 6:44am
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Dear Asep,
I know what Muslims believe, you don't have to explain, as I used to be one (you can check my past posts on this forum). It has no bearing on my point whatsoever. You must delve into that post of mine thoroughly, as your reply indicates that you really didn't. I will address your reply anyway: You are implying that the books of the "past messengers", were either lost or corrupted. Would you believe me if I or anyone else were to claim that the Quran was lost or corrupted? No, you would not. You would ask me to prove such a claim, or declare me a liar. The "people of the book" claim to still have those books which you implied to be either lost or corrupted, which would be an incredibly serious claim to make, not something you can claim lightly and hope no one will question you. What you must do is prove with irrefutable evidence; when, where, why and how these books were either lost or corrupted. |
Posted By: asep48garut60
Date Posted: 08 October 2016 at 4:12pm
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Dear 786SalamKhan,
------------------------------- What you must do is prove with irrefutable evidence; when, where, why and how these books were either lost or corrupted. ------------------------------- Sorry, do you mean that I have to prove with irrefutable evidence for all the books or just the Quran? I can only prove that the Quran is true and still maintained its authenticity, while on the other books I only have a little knowledge of it. Then I am curious to ask you why you said "If you were to thoroughly Delve into my comment, you would Realise that the Bible and the Koran can not both be true." Can you explain to me if the Quran is not correct? Thanks. Regards, Asep |
Posted By: 786SalamKhan
Date Posted: 09 October 2016 at 4:19am
It seems you are still refusing to delve into my first post. Should I bother carrying on this conversation? There are irreconcilable differences between the Bible and the Quran; the Bible, does teach what Traditional Christians believe, as my first post covers. The Bible is either true, or the Quran is true, both cannot be true at the same time. If the Bible is true, then anything contrary to the truth is by that very fact, false. Muslims know this, and this is why they resort to claiming that the Bible is corrupted. Again, an incredible claim to make; they must prove with irrefutable evidence, when, where, how and why the Bible got corrupted. And even if they somehow manage to do so, the records of the "people of the book" being corrupted creates problems for the claim of Muhammad's prophethood being a continuation of the Abrahamic tradition. |
Posted By: asep48garut60
Date Posted: 09 October 2016 at 5:42pm
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Dear 786SalamKhan,
I just highlights and to answer your opinion and question related to the Muslim faith, including: ----------------------------------- If you believe the Bible, you must keep in mind, you would not pick up a Quran, and interpret it however way you want. You present God as some sort of schizophrenic. Why not then join the Bahai or the Ahmadiyyah faith, do you see what my point is? ----------------------------------- Is there something wrong about my responses to these points ? In addition, I would like to response your question and ask you a question as follows: ------------------------ This question is for Muslims, coming from myself as a lapsed Muslim: What does the claim that Jesus Christ Himself founded the Catholic Church, and gave Her divine authority to teach, mean to you? ---------------------------- 1. I can't explain your question about "What does the claim that Jesus Christ Himself founded the Catholic Church, and the Gave Her divine authority to teach, mean to you?", Because I do not follow all non-muslim worship. 2. If you are a lapsed Muslim, do you believe in the Quran ? Thank you. Regards, Asep |
Posted By: 786SalamKhan
Date Posted: 10 October 2016 at 1:10am
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Dear Asep,
This is the first post of mine which I was referring to, read it, along with the hyperlinks attached, remember to click on the underlined:
As a lapsed Muslim, I currently am not convinced by the Quran. |
Posted By: Tim the plumber
Date Posted: 10 October 2016 at 4:56am
From my external, athiest and experienced with people ripping me off the claim that any such holy book is not corrupted is the hard part to accept. Can you show that any book has any more credibility than the others which we agree are wrong? |
Posted By: asep48garut60
Date Posted: 10 October 2016 at 5:15pm
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Dear 786SalamKhan,
Well if so, thank you. I hope that someday you will be returned to believe in the Quran. Regards, Asep |
Posted By: Ceo3
Date Posted: 10 October 2016 at 10:36pm
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Quran [7:101] " Such were the towns whose story We (thus) relate unto thee: There came indeed to them their messengers with clear (signs): But they would not believe what they had rejected before. Thus doth Allah seal up the hearts of those who reject faith."
Islam is based on faith and no amount of convincing will prove Quran word of God for those who reject faith. God released Moses AS people from oppression, opended a sea for them, sent food from heaven and they still rejected faith even though the signs were clear. Jesus AS raised people from the dead and people rejected Him. Prophet SAW recited the Quran, a literary masterpiece in a time the Arabs had the highest regard for their language. Their sign was that none could replicate or better even one verse. Even so, the Quraysh justified their rejection of the Quran knowing the Prophet SAW was an honourable and truthful man. |
Posted By: Saved
Date Posted: 24 October 2016 at 9:24pm
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Posted By: 2Acts
Date Posted: 25 October 2016 at 5:02pm
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Posted By: 2Acts
Date Posted: 25 October 2016 at 5:12pm
You misunderstand the Bible. Jesus said he is the Son of God (Mathew 26), not God the Father. The Quaran is clear it says the Bible is the Word of God. S. 19.30, S. 5:46, S. 57:27, S. 5:46. Muslims need to accept and believe in the Bible. The "science" in the Quran is rubbish. The Quran says the sun set into a muddy pond ! It also says Soloman spoke with ants! These things are not scientific and are ridiculous. If the Quaran has so much science then why are there no decent Universities in the Muslim world. All the best universities are in Europe or America. The oldest Quaran found in Sanaa in the 1970s proves the Quaran is not a miracle book. |
Posted By: Ceo3
Date Posted: 25 October 2016 at 10:03pm
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We believe in all the scriptures in as far as it compliments the Quran. As you, we believe in the flood of Noah, parting of red sea through Moses and miracles of Jesus (may Gods peace be upon them all). Any scientific rationale for these? People of different denominations should rather focus on what we have in common, ie peace and justice on earth, concern for fellow man and the common enemy of immorality and materialism.
Muslims also believe Jesus (peace be upon him) will return to earth as well and fight the anti-Christ. The Quran is very strict ito our respect for other faiths and their Prophets. Peace brother, |
Posted By: Saved
Date Posted: 26 October 2016 at 8:48am
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Posted By: 2Acts
Date Posted: 28 October 2016 at 10:08pm
Hello Ceo3 Thank you for your reply. To say you believe in all the scriptures only in as far as it compliments the Quran. This is arrogant and ignorant. It is like me saying I only believe in the Quran only if it fits my own views. It leaves no room to be challenged or have your views widened. This is ignorance. The flood of Noah and parting of the Red Sea were miracles of God. Miracles only. Not the pseudo science that Muslims profess so as to promote the supposed �superiority of the Quran.� I agree. People of different denominations should focus on what we have in common. However I suggest you also tell that to muslim153 after his attempt to undermine the Bible and Christianity by misrepresenting what Jesus said is his relationship to God the Father. If you read his comment he also said �there�s more science and math in the Quran than the Bible�, attempting to use this as a straw man argument of the superiority of the Quran. He also said �People believe the Bible with NO evidence true are spiritually dead.� So if you are wanting to preach a focus on what we have in common the place to start is with your Muslim brothers such as Muslim153. Yes Muslims and Christians both agree that Jesus / Isa will return to earth and fight the anti-Christ. However the Injil / Gospels say much more than that. Jesus said he is The Son of God who has come to forgive and redeem world. This is a blessing Muslims are at risk of missing. Peace and Blessings and Truth |
Posted By: asep48garut60
Date Posted: 30 October 2016 at 5:34pm
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Dear Saved,
After a long time I studied the Bible, yes, that there are parts of the contents are not guaranteed its purity, therefore, I can't turn away from the Quran where the purity of Allah's words is still assured. I am a person who is not easy to believe in a book before I learned also the other books as comparative study like the Bible, the Tripitaka (Buddhist) and the Veda (Hindu). For muslims, only Allah the savior of the best. Regards, Asep |
Posted By: ovibos
Date Posted: 02 November 2016 at 8:08pm
This is one of the examples how the Bible's authors edited the Bible. The verse that you cited is from Matthew 28:19. Did you know that Matthew originally wrote the Bible in Semitic language (either Hebrew or Aramaic)? Church Fathers like Papias and Jerome confirmed that Matthew wrote his gospel in Hebrew, which Jerome called it as matthaei authenticum (the original Matthew), which was written in Hebrew. The Hebrew Matthew had been lost for centuries, but they still have a copy of copy of copy of that text. One of the copy of the Hebrew Matthew is from Shem Tov. In the version of Shem-Tov, there's is no Trinity in Matthew 28:19. Obviously that the trinity part of the verse is an addition by later author/editor. |
Posted By: ovibos
Date Posted: 02 November 2016 at 8:27pm
I think the best example is the gospel. Are the canonical gospel authentic? Many scholars believe that the author of Mark, Matthew, and Luke didn't write their gospel independently. Rather, they copied form other source(s), i.e. Matthew and Luke copied from Mark and another Lost Gospel called Q. Many scholars believe that the Lost Gospel Q is the original gospel, the first gospel, and the earliest gospel. The most important thing about Jesus according to the Gospel is his sayings and his teachings such as "the Sermon on the Mount". There are no stories about Jesus's death, crucifixion, and resurrection in the gospel. In short, Jesus' birth, death, crucifixion, and resurrection is not that important according to the original gospel. Only later that the New Testament authors changed this view, and they claim that Jesus's death and resurrection is the central theme of Christianity. |
Posted By: ovibos
Date Posted: 02 November 2016 at 8:42pm
The verses above talk about the Gospel (or Injil), not the Christian Bible (from Genesis to Revelation). Which Gospel does Quran talk about? Are they the canonical gospels? No! I believe that the gospel that Quran mentions is the original gospel, maybe it's the Lost Gospel Q, or maybe it's the Hebrew Matthew which Jerome called it as "matthaei authenticum". FYI, according to ahadith from Bukhari, Waraqa ibn Naufal - the uncle of the Prophet's wife, did translate a gospel from hebrew to arabic. |
Posted By: Ceo3
Date Posted: 03 November 2016 at 9:31pm
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Thank you ovibos for info.
Dear 2acts, I appreciate the corteous dialogue Christianity and Islam are diff idelogies therefore one cant believe in both from that point of view. By compliments I mean to say the similarities of creation of earth and man, judgement day, the Prophets as. We believe in Taugeed, Islam and Muhhamad saw was last messenger, that for us is cast in stone and offers no compromise. [16:125] You shall invite to the path of your Lord with wisdom and kind enlightenment, and debate with them in the best possible manner. Your Lord knows best who has strayed from His path, and He knows best who are the guided ones. Above is verse in Quran which guides our religious debates. We are not allowed to critisize, attack or question excessively other faiths core beliefs. We are only to explain what Islam is and what if offers. Therefore our passion when conveying especially Quran, its up to each person to make own decision. Take care |
Posted By: Saved
Date Posted: 04 November 2016 at 6:55pm
Hi Ovibos: We've the same gospel Muhammad had in his hand in the 7th century when Allah told him he sent it for guidance and light. Nothing got lost from the gospel. The Quran is clear that the gospel is the unaltered, incorruptible word of Allah, and he commands that the People of the Book (Christians) "stand on the revelation that has been revealed to them for we can do no other" How do we know it is not corrupted? It is because Allah told us to stand on the revelation revealed to us. The revelation of the gospel revealed that Jesus was born of a virgin sinless and he died and rose from the dead to save us from our sin. Jesus was the only person without sin to save us. All others fall short of God's glory. A drowning man cannot save a drowning man. Jesus was the only person that was found not to be drowning in sin. That is the revelation we got and stand on. People can interpret the Quran differently when it comes to the gospel being the word of Allah, I accept that Allah was right in telling us to stand firm on our revelation from the gospel. Those that disbelieve, are free to do so, but no one is free from the consequences of their choices. The gospel states that there is no other name given under heaven whereby we might be saved but the name of Jesus Christ. Is it true that you can justify almost any interpretation of the Quran; for instance, one can make an argument such as I have been doing by showing the Quran and the gospel agree in areas that Muslims don't or one can interpret it as a declaration of war on all unbelievers like Isis or one can see Islam as a religion of peace in that they are not trying to force sharia on the world? PBUY, Al |
Posted By: Saved
Date Posted: 06 November 2016 at 6:25am
| We are commanded to love our enemies in the gospel. What does the Quran teach you to do to those that oppose you? |
Posted By: 2Acts
Date Posted: 07 November 2016 at 11:16pm
Hello Asep. The oldest Quran in existence was found in Sanaa Yemen in the 1970s. It proves the Quran is not pure, but is influenced by man. |
Posted By: 2Acts
Date Posted: 07 November 2016 at 11:30pm
Exactly Saved We've the same gospel Muhammad had in his hand in the 7th century when Allah told him he sent it for guidance and light. These are the same established canon Gospels of Mathew, Mark, Luke and John. No others were canon. Therefore Muslims must believe in them. That is logical and historical. |
Posted By: asep48garut60
Date Posted: 08 November 2016 at 4:23pm
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Dear Saved,
Indeed, all Muslims are required to believe in the gospel because it is the word of God, but in this day, which one is true?, therefore, I ever propose to you "do I need to prove?" that each gospel is different one of another. Keep in mind that not all Muslims agree with the declaration of war against all unbelievers except as in the word of Allah 60: 8 where muslims are not forbidden to make good relationship in all matters without distinction of ethnic, nation, skin color, religion and so on, except they will change muslims aqidah and expel Muslims from their hometown like the Palestinians which are gradually their territory will annexed by Israel. In Islam, Jesus is not the only one who can save mankind, but all men who obediently follow the teachings of their Apostles will get salvation from Allah. If the Gospel said "The gospel states that there is no other name given under heaven whereby we might be saved but the name of Jesus Christ." This means that the Gospel of today invites you not to believe the other scriptures before the Gospel was revealed like the Psalms and the Torah. Is that right? Related to ISIS declaration issues, I personally do not agree with the ideology of ISIS, because not only declare war with non-Muslims but also ISIS fight and kill other Muslims. Regards, Asep |
Posted By: Saved
Date Posted: 08 November 2016 at 8:17pm
Regards, Al |
Posted By: DavidC
Date Posted: 09 November 2016 at 6:08am
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The Gospel is the good news that because of Jesus all mankind can have eternal life. This means everyone, including Muslims. The Gospel is the good news that Jesus opened up new dimensions in the relationship between God and mankind, not a written document.
The four biblical gospels are not "The Gospel". Those are only transcribed oral histories. 'Gospel' in the sense of the bible is a literary genre. In the Qu'ran, Jesus is the ultimate judge of all Muslims. I think the question for Muslims is "What is it about Jesus that the Qu'ran makes Jesus the final judge of Muslims instead of Muhammad?" ------------- Christian; Wesleyan M.Div. |
Posted By: DavidC
Date Posted: 09 November 2016 at 8:33am
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The Gospel is the good news that because of Jesus all mankind can have eternal life. This means everyone, including Muslims. The Gospel is the good news that Jesus opened up new dimensions in the relationship between God and mankind, not a written document.
The four biblical gospels are not "The Gospel". Those are only transcribed oral histories. 'Gospel' in the sense of the bible is a literary genre. In the Qu'ran, Jesus is the ultimate judge of all Muslims. I think the question for Muslims is "What is it about Jesus that the Qu'ran makes Jesus the final judge of Muslims instead of Muhammad?" ------------- Christian; Wesleyan M.Div. |
Posted By: 2Acts
Date Posted: 09 November 2016 at 1:33pm
Thank you for your reply Ceo. Perhaps you need to be preaching to Muslim 153 who started this thread with his criticism of Christianity ? Blessings and Peace |
Posted By: 2Acts
Date Posted: 09 November 2016 at 1:35pm
The original language of the Gospel of Mathew is irrelevant. What�s important is the accurate transmission of meaning. Not the original language. How many Muslims read the Quran in the original language of Arabic. Most do not. Mathew 28.19 is only one of the many verses in the New Testament that refer to the Trinity. How are you going to explain away all the other verses ? Shem Tovs version is only one of many. It is not significant. The new testament is the most validated of all ancient writings. More ancient copies exist than any other ancient writing, for example the Roman history of Julius Caesar, and others. Plus these copies cover a huge and wide geographic area that prevents them from being gathered together and falsified. You do not have your original Quran. Uthman burnt then all and all your Hafiz only recite the version of the Q after the U burning. The oldest Quran found in Sanaa in the 1970s prove the Quran is not a miracle book and it is full of inconsistencies, contradictions and problems. |
Posted By: 2Acts
Date Posted: 09 November 2016 at 1:38pm
Are the canonical gospel authentic? Yes. The new testament is the most validated of all ancient writings. More ancient copies exist than any other ancient writing, for example the Roman history of Julius Caesar, and others. Plus these copies cover a huge and wide geographic area that prevents them from being gathered together and falsified. You need to educate yourself about the synoptic gospels of Mathew, Mark and Luke. There is evidence they referred to each other with some similarities but also some significant differences. This only makes theses gospels more reliable, not less reliable. You also need to understand the history of the gospels in terms of their oral traditions and the criteria identified by Christian scholars over the centuries to establish the canon. You only know about the Q document theory because of the integrity of Christian scholars. This is nothing new for Christians. Which New Testament authors changed Jesus' birth, death, crucifixion, and resurrection ? Peter ? John ? Paul ? James ? They all stressed Jesus' birth, death, crucifixion, and resurrection and they were all first generation believers. As requested by 786SalamKhan you have provided no evidence. You have no concrete proof, only conspiracy theories. Muslims dont know what you�re original Quran said ! Uthman destroyed all original copies and the oldest pre Uthman Sanaa Quran shows it was a man made writing. |
Posted By: 2Acts
Date Posted: 09 November 2016 at 1:41pm
The word Injil means �gospel�. The New Testament has the four canonical gospels. Mathew, Mark, luke and John. Canonical Gospels ? YES ! The four canon Gospels of Mathew, Mark, Luke and John were established canon Gospels before Mohamad was even born. Mohamad either knew this � so commands you to believe them. Or else he was confused and ignorant of the �People of the Book� and the Injil. Which one ? |
Posted By: asep48garut60
Date Posted: 09 November 2016 at 4:52pm
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Dear David C,
----------------- The Gospel is the good news that because of Jesus all mankind can have eternal life. This means everyone, including Muslims. The Gospel is the good news that Jesus opened up new dimensions in the relationship between God and mankind, not a written document. ----------------- In Islam, only Allah can give eternal life to mankind (not Jesus), even in the Quran stated that Jesus was only a Messenger of God who was assigned only to a nation, and not for the whole of mankind. Here are the proofs: Quran 43:59. Such verse in Quran has the same meaning as the Gospel Acts 13:23. Based on the verse, then Jesus is a savior for Israel and not for the whole nation or the world. This is corroborated by the testimony of Jesus himself in Matthew 15:24. ------------ The four biblical gospels are not "The Gospel". Those are only transcribed oral histories. 'Gospel' in the sense of the bible is a literary genre. ------------- If so, is there the original Gospel? How Christians carry out the commands of God ?, because all religious people certainly recognize that not only faith but must be accompanied by deeds. This is the same as the statement in James 2:17. --------------- In the Qu'ran, Jesus is the ultimate judge of all Muslims. I think the question for Muslims is "What is it about Jesus that the Qu'ran makes Jesus the final judge of Muslims instead of Muhammad?" ------------ Please indicate the verse in the Qur'an stating that Jesus is the ultimate judge of all Muslims? In Islam, the supreme judge and the last is Allah (Quran 1:4). Only to Allah all mankind will be returned, and also only Allah who will judge mankind in Hereafter later. The Prophet Muhammad is the last Messenger of Allah as mentioned in Quran 33:40. Even in Other books there are also contained statements about the prophethood of Muhammad: In Hindu "Ahmad will receive the religious laws of his Lord. This law is filled with wisdom. I receive light from him as receive from sunlight.�( sama weda,11:6,8) In Buddha In the Doctrine of Buddhist by Caras (page 217-8) mentioned that the great Buddha coming to this world known as "Maitreya" (giver of grace which refers to Muhammad). The correlation of such Doctrine in the Quran are: 34:28, 21:107 informing that the duty of the Prophet Muhammad is a carrier of mercy to all mankind and nature. In The Bible Deuteronomy 18:20, and the meaning of such verse has the same meaning with the verse in the Quran 69:44-47, 61:6. Mystery of word of Himada in Hagai 2:7 "And I will shake all nations, and Himada for all nations will come; and I will fill this house with glory, says the Lord of the house." The letter "th" in Himdath word can be changed to "hi" or even eliminated, and analysis of the Himdath word in Jews language, Hebrew and Arabic are as follows: Himdath = Himdahi = Himda = Jews language Himada = Hebrew Ahmad = Arabic All these words have the same meaning that is "commendable" and have the same root word that is: H-M-D, and if omitted the vowels will be: H-M-D = Jews language H-M-D = Hebrew H-M-D = Arabic Whoever the person who is an expert in Semitic language would have the same conclusion that Himada and Ahmad (Muhammad) are the same. Regards, Asep |
Posted By: 786SalamKhan
Date Posted: 09 November 2016 at 5:12pm
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Dear ovibos,
I will answer some of your points, if not all: "Did you know that Matthew originally wrote the Bible in Semitic language (either Hebrew or Aramaic)?" Yes. So you admit the author was in fact St. Matthew? "Church Fathers like Papias and Jerome confirmed that Matthew wrote his gospel in Hebrew, which Jerome called it as matthaei authenticum (the original Matthew), which was written in Hebrew." If you can cite the Church Fathers for this, then you can cite the Church Fathers (not limited to these two) as trusting the Greek translation. "One of the copy of the Hebrew Matthew is from Shem Tov. In the version of Shem-Tov, there's is no Trinity in Matthew 28:19. Obviously that the trinity part of the verse is an addition by later author/editor." Ah, so a version from the Middle Ages, among Jews who reject Christianity and the Gospels, carries a more authentic reading than the version backed by ancient evidence? Absurd... "Are the canonical gospel authentic?" Ask St. Irenaeus, who was a disciple of St. Polycarp, who in turn was a disciple of St. John the Apostle of Christ; St. Irenaeus would be equivalent to what is known as a 'Tabitabieen' in Islam. "Many scholars believe that the author of Mark, Matthew, and Luke didn't write their gospel independently. Rather, they copied form other source(s), i.e. Matthew and Luke copied from Mark and another Lost Gospel called Q. Many scholars believe that the Lost Gospel Q is the original gospel, the first gospel, and the earliest gospel." That is only a theory, and not the only theory these scholars put forward. There are scholars who have several theories about the origin of the Quran too. Will you believe them? No, you would challenge them to prove their theories with irrefutable evidence. I have asked you to provide irrefutable evidence: when, where, why, and how this corruption took place, and you have not provided. Yet to you arrogantly come to your conclusions, evidently not having thoroughly delved into my posts, using only conjecture? Try having some integrity, please... |
Posted By: Saved
Date Posted: 09 November 2016 at 5:56pm
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Posted By: Saved
Date Posted: 10 November 2016 at 3:34pm
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Posted By: DavidC
Date Posted: 10 November 2016 at 8:59pm
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Asep - thank you for your gentle correction. The verses I remembered were from Bukhari not Qu'ran. This appears to give Jesus a special status in Islam. Why will Jesus return as the just ruler
Volume 4, Book 55, Number 657: Narrated Abu Huraira: Allah's Apostle said, "By Him in Whose Hands my soul is, surely (Jesus,) the son of Mary will soon descend amongst you and will judge mankind justly (as a Just Ruler); he will break the Cross and kill the pigs and there will be no Jizya (i.e. taxation taken from non Muslims). Money will be in abundance so that nobody will accept it, and a single prostration to Allah (in prayer) will be better than the whole world and whatever is in it." Abu Huraira added "If you wish, you can recite (this verse of the Holy Book): -- 'And there is none Of the people of the Scriptures (Jews and Christians) But must believe in him (i.e Jesus as an Apostle of Allah and a human being) Before his death. And on the Day of Judgment He will be a witness Against them." (4.159) (See Fateh Al Bari, Page 302 Vol 7) Volume 4, Book 55, Number 658: Narrated Abu Huraira: Allah's Apostle said "How will you be when the son of Mary (i.e. Jesus) descends amongst you and he will judge people by the Law of the Quran and not by the law of Gospel (Fateh-ul Bari page 304 and 305 Vol 7) ------------- Christian; Wesleyan M.Div. |
Posted By: Ceo3
Date Posted: 10 November 2016 at 9:11pm
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Going back to about 700AD there is proof via discovered Quranic script that what we have today is exactly the same. Also non muslim historians prove that Muhammad SAW did speak the words.
Now criticisms of Quran are from the mouth of Muhammad SAW up until when it was written down. There were 100s of companions who memorised the Quran and they come together to collate into book form. Some doubt this method, however today their are millions in the world who have memorised the Quran all 6000 plus verses in order, from 6 yrs old. You can take one from Malaysia, to Egypt to England to USA and they will all recite the same. No other book ever has been on such a large scale been commited to memory. |
Posted By: Saved
Date Posted: 11 November 2016 at 12:15am
But here is the gospel in a nutshell: God has made his yoke easy and His burden light, and God will reason with us personally. No man is able attain the holiness stature necessary to stand in front of our all powerful supreme Creator, but He has made a way for us to get there. For instance, like Noah was saved hidden in the ark during the judgmental global flooding of the earth. We too can be saved hid in Christ when God's judgment falls on all the earth of the end-time. Additionally, like the children of Israel were spared death when they obeyed God by putting the blood of an innocent lamb on their door post. The blood of the Lamb is key. We too can be saved if we are covered by the blood of the Lamb of God, but it is impossible to be covered that way if one doesn't believe Jesus died and rose from the dead. Once we accept the Truth who is Jesus, and the life who is Jesus, and the way who is Jesus we receive the gift of salvation; once we have that gift we need to work out our own salvation with fear and trembling (not work for it). But the beauty is, Jesus will be the author and finisher of our faith. It is written in the gospel that he who has started a good work in you will finish what He started. Now that sounds like a plan of salvation that goes beyond human reach, but with God all things are possible. Finally, wisdom tells us one cannot believe in both the Bible and the Quran. We will have to choose one or the other. The Bible and the Quran are unequivocally mutually exclusive. Had the starter of this thread known that, he or she wouldn't have started this thread. PBUY, al |
Posted By: asep48garut60
Date Posted: 12 November 2016 at 9:45pm
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Dear David C,
Frankly, my feelings say that you are a good man to anyone, not just the look from your writings, but my sixth sense to talk like that. And I was instructed by Allah to reciprocate the goodness from someone, whoever that person (Quran 4:86). Maybe these are just additional of things on Islam. Not only in Hadiths, but also in the Quran there are several verses that say, Jesus hasn't dead, among them: Quran 3:54-55, 5:117. The word "tawaffa" or "mutawaffika" or "tawaffaitani" in the such two verses has a meaning that Allah takes the spirit and body of Jesus together to be lifted into the sky, and I interpret those words as "akhadza wa qabadha" (calling and holding), but the meaning is the same. Both of these verses is made clear by the word of Allah in the Quran 4: 157-158 The word "qataluuhu maa" (they did not kill Jesus) is the word of a general nature, that is, they did not kill him in any way. Then followed by the words' maa shalabuubu "(they did not crucify him), it's a special word. That is, they did not kill him in any way, and also means they did not crucify Jesus. Then proceed with the word "bal rafa'ahullahu ilaih" (but Allah lifted him) meaning that Jesus was appointed by Allah to be saved from murder conspiracy. Narrated by Ahmad and Abu Dawud that: "Rasulullah said:" ... and indeed he (Jesus) is going down ... and then he will be on the earth 40 years ...� Qadir Hasan explained, which shows Jesus will come down is the word "Kahlan". The word "kahl" means old age is more than 30 years old and grizzled. The relationship between hadith with Quran 3:46 is the word "wa Kahlan" or "al kahlu", it shows to thirty years in the time of Jesus ever on earth and in the last 40 years in the future, Jesus will down again to the earth. This verse gives a hint that Jesus had not died and will return to the earth until he reaches the age of "wa Kahlan" or "al kahlu". I like to discuss with anyone on the essential truth that does not come from human opinion, no coercion and no hatred feeling. Thanks David, Peace be with you. Regards, Asep |
Posted By: Saved
Date Posted: 12 November 2016 at 10:08pm
How is that the best of plans or how is it a better plan then Jesus came and died to take the punishment of our sins; so, he can reconcile God's creation back to himself. The first Adam brought death and the last Adam (Jesus)brings life Jesus predicted his own death twice in Matthew 17; BTW, that is where the original story of Jesus' virgin birth was found. All other sources are secondary to the gospel. |
Posted By: DavidC
Date Posted: 14 November 2016 at 6:53am
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Likewise, Asep. When we politely discuss religion with mutual humility, we praise God and honor each other. ------------- Christian; Wesleyan M.Div. |
Posted By: asep48garut60
Date Posted: 14 November 2016 at 4:03pm
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yes David, I agree with you.
Regards, Asep |
Posted By: Saved
Date Posted: 14 November 2016 at 6:27pm
| Being polite and discussion with humility is a good thing, but when we speak truth it will sometimes if not always come across as rude to those in deception. The Scriptures state that faithful are the wounds of a friend, but the kisses of the enemy are deceitful. Jesus said, "Beware when all men speak well of you." Jesus came across as rude, arrogant and proud many times to the religions rulers and unbelievers, but He was a righteous faithful witness and the perfect example to follow. |
Posted By: asep48garut60
Date Posted: 16 November 2016 at 3:27pm
Dear Saved, I didn't write like the above sentence, that is from David C. Thanks. Regards, Asep |
Posted By: asep48garut60
Date Posted: 16 November 2016 at 4:36pm
Dear Saved, Yes, you are right, but for me is more than that, my attitude should still be polite to anyone although I am explaining about the truth. (Quran 16:125) Regards, Asep |
Posted By: Saved
Date Posted: 16 November 2016 at 6:47pm
Yes, you see to me honestly this appears to be another imperfect borrowing of the Scripture that came before along with the virgin birth of Jesus and that God sends deception that unbelievers might continue to believe lies over truth. FYI, with all due respect, the gospel states that we owe not only to be polite but our love to all people; in fact, we are to love even our enemies. The next verse in the Quran 16; 126 is just another way of saying an eye for an eye and tooth for tooth which is first and original to the Scripture that came before. Jesus tells us in so many ways doing to people the evil they do to you will only make the world blind and lame. We are to love our enemies and pray for those that use and abuse us. There is no other better way; that is the truth that trumps falsehood. It is written beware, lest you also be found to be fighting against God. Acts 5:39 Regards, Saved |
Posted By: asep48garut60
Date Posted: 17 November 2016 at 5:55pm
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Dear Saved,
I agree with you that we should love our enemies and pray for those who use and abuse us. Allah said in the Quran 28:77 "And do good to mankind as Allah has been good to you. And do not do mischief on earth, Allah does not like those who do mischief. " I don't dare to oppose Allah, even I only fear to Allah. Regards, Asep |
Posted By: Saved
Date Posted: 18 November 2016 at 10:18am
You are agreeing with the gospel. Quran 28: 77 doesn't state to do good to those that abuse you. The verse you quoted however is very general, because most people do good to those that do good to them. What reward is there in that as Jesus asked? The reward from God is when you do good to those that don't do good to you, hate you or can't do good for you. So,(Quran 28:77) is not in clear support of the gospel, my comment, or what you are agreeing with. Do you realize this? Remember, Jesus said love your enemies; that Quran verse is general, because Allah's love in the Quran is conditional, and the love of God in the gospel is not conditional love. I don't see that Quran verse agreeing with the gospel or what I posted and yet you agree with me. That is interesting to say the least. We should owe no man anything but our love. The verse you quoted fails to express that. I believe you know I am speaking truth. What you do with that truth is up to you. May you come to the knowledge of truth that leads to paradise since you do appear to me to be still searching for the best knowledge. PBUY, Saved |
Posted By: syed_z
Date Posted: 18 November 2016 at 8:05pm
Saved, Please learn your own scriptures before you come here to preach us. The thirty-fourth verse of the tenth chapter of Matthew quotes Isa (alaihi Salaam) as having said, �Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.� (Matt: 1034) It is written in the fifty-first verse of the twelfth chapter of Luke that Isa (alaihi Salaam) said, �Suppose ye that I am come to give peace on earth? I tell you, Nay; but rather division:� (Luke: 12-51) All the best. |
Posted By: Saved
Date Posted: 19 November 2016 at 8:01am
The sword Jesus is talking about is the sword of the spirit (The Word of God) It is written the word of God is quick and powerful sharper than any two edged sword piercing to the dividing of the body and the soul and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart. Google it bro. When did you ever hear of Jesus having an actual steel sword in his hand?
If you want to understand the intents of the gospel listen to me, and you can learn a lot. With all due respect, you should be more quick to listen than to speak bro. PBUY, Saved |
Posted By: 2Acts
Date Posted: 20 November 2016 at 11:47pm
In 1972 a large number of ancient Quranic manuscripts, dating from first century of Hijra were discovered in the Great Mosque of Sana�a (Yemen), which significantly differs from the present standard one. This challenges the orthodox Muslim belief that the Quran, as it has reached us today, is �the perfect, timeless, and unchanging Word of God�. It means the Quran has been distorted, perverted, revised, modified and corrected, and textual alterations had taken place over the years purely by Human hands. Millions have memorised the Quran. Really !Which Quran ? The original one or the changed one ? Muslims willnever know because Uthman destroyed the originals ! |
Posted By: 2Acts
Date Posted: 20 November 2016 at 11:50pm
It is obvious Jesus was talking figuratively. He was simply saying his message would bring division. He was not and never did advocate violence. Unlike Mohamad. There are dozens of verses in the Quran that advocate violence. |
Posted By: Saved
Date Posted: 22 November 2016 at 10:16am
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Posted By: Saved
Date Posted: 22 November 2016 at 2:58pm
If that is the case, why didn't Uthman depend on memory when he recompiled the Qurans he had burned. He used Hafsa's copy (the help of text not memory) afterwards her was destroyed (after her death). I don't see any evidence that the Qurans they use today trace directly back to Muhammad accept for the final copy Hafsa had that was destroyed and the one you speak of in Yemen. I do believe you are correct that is an older copy found that doesn't resemble perfectly the one Muslims use today. I understand that if there is one discrepancy in the Quran it renders all of it useless. My question is who gave Uthman the divine mandate to put the Quran to writing? Quran means recite not write; who made Uthman Muhammad's successor and Allah's editor in chief? I believe the copy Hafsa had was very different from the one he recompiled, and he destroyed the evidence so one one would be the wiser. We don't have it to compare and contrast, and the Turkish government won't let anyone carefully examine the oldest Quran found to compare and contrast to the one they use now. This sounds like a man controlled endeavor that has gone on for centuries IMHO. PBUY Saved |
Posted By: asep48garut60
Date Posted: 23 November 2016 at 12:09pm
Dear Saved, You said: ------------------------------------------------------ The verse you quoted however is very general, because most people do good to those that do good to them. What reward is there in that as Jesus asked? ------------------------------------------------------ Yes, indeed I quoted it is common because the Quran was revealed for all era, even until the Day of Judgment. Quran was revealed as a warning to the whole of nature (Quran 68:52), and so the prophet Muhammad, he was sent to all mankind (Quran 34:28), not for one community only, even he as a mercy to all the world (Quran 21: 107). And you said: ------------------------------------------------------ So,(Quran 28:77) is not in clear support of the gospel, my comment, or what you are agreeing with. Do you realize this? ------------------------------------------------------ Yes, I am very aware, and I just agreed that we should do good to all humans, even to all creatures other than humans, except what is mentioned in the Quran 60:8. And you said: ------------------------------------------------------ that Quran verse is general, because Allah's love in the Quran is conditional, and the love of God in the gospel is not conditional love. ------------------------------------------------------ Yes like that, everything that God created was not in vain, certainly all be useful as in His word. Allah created heaven and hell, is reserved to those who faithfully execute His commands and for those who don't run His commands. That's why the love of Allah in the Quran is conditional. Here I would like to ask, who created heaven and hell? and then for whom heaven and hell? And you said: ------------------------------------------------------ I believe you know I am speaking truth. What you do with that truth is up to you. May you come to the knowledge of truth that leads to paradise since you do appear to me to be still searching for the best knowledge. ------------------------------------------------------ Yes, the way we look in the understanding of truth is different, we can only explain the truth in accordance with our respective beliefs, and shouldn't impose one another. Regards, Asep |
Posted By: DavidC
Date Posted: 23 November 2016 at 2:39pm
The sword is a common Biblical image. The Roman short sword was an axe, a knife, even a shovel. Searching through the Bible the imagery is usually of dividing and cleaning. Separating good from bad, meat from bone, removing excess fat and sinew. We even have God's tongue appearing as a sword in Revelation, sorting out the final judgment Sometimes the sword is a tool of violence, but not often. Most Biblical violence is in the OT histories. The ability to forge iron was a closely guarded Phoenician technology the Israelites did not have. In the story of the defeat of Sisera in Judges, Deborah's entire army only had one brass sword. By Mohammed's time weaponry and metallurgy had become much more advanced. ------------- Christian; Wesleyan M.Div. |
Posted By: Ceo3
Date Posted: 23 November 2016 at 8:49pm
Like a drowning man clutching on straws, your retort if not anything offered some amuzement. How have these manuscripts differed? Is it the grammatical content, writing style or is each word still the same as per 1400 years ago? Kindly check your facts. Millions have memorised 1 Quran, and one can only memorise from a teacher which links back to beginning of Islam. So we have 2 solid methods of having preserved the Quran. Can the followers of Bible and Torah make the same assertion? Surely you must concede Quran better chance of preservation than other books. Also Islam came when there were better writing instruments and the full light of history was shining. |
Posted By: syed_z
Date Posted: 23 November 2016 at 10:02pm
Saved, You change topics very quick. Let me remind you what you had mentioned earlier:
My purpose to quote the words of Jesus son of Mary (alaihi Salaam) in the Gospel about the sword was to inform you that the Gospel also mentions words like 'Sword' and 'War' 'Division' which can be misinterpreted, infact they are being misinterpreted and have in the past. History speaks for itself. Constantine the Great commanded the mutilation of all the Jews in his country by cutting their ears and exiled them to various places. In 372 C.E., the Roman emperor Gratianus, after a consultation with his commanders, commanded the Christianization of all the Jews in the country and the killing of those who would resist. Misinterpretation of the words of Jesus son of Mary (alaihi Salaam) has indeed taken place in the past and continue to do so by the Christians. The thirty-sixth verse of the twenty-second chapter of Luke quotes, �... But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one.� (Luke: 22-36) Does that mean Jesus son of Mary (alaihi Salaam) promoted violence? No. But those who claimed to be his followers have done it! So Christianity and all its followers are not about love after all. As for your 'explanation' of 16:126 as an 'eye for an eye' 'tooth for a tooth' is weak as any person with a little bit of common sense would not agree to yours after reading the following: (16:125) Call Thou (all mankind) unto your Sustainer's path with wisdom and goodly exhortations, and argue with them in the most kindly manner (16:126) Hence if you have to respond to an attack (in argument) respond only to the attack leveled against you; but to bear yourselves with patience is indeed far better for (you since God is with) those who are patient in adversity. The 16:125 guides on how to have a discussion with those who disagree with you therefore 126 is to be read in conjunction with it. Just like how you misinterpret verses from the Quran so can the words of Gospel be misinterpreted. As for the concept of unconditional love of Jesus son of Mary (alaihi Salaam) I have the following to share with you. His disciples questioned him like you are questioning about Islam. The replies he gave to his disciples are the same that we are giving to you: Gospel of Barnabas Chapter 58 No Pity on Reprobates Then after he had wept, John spoke: 'O master, two things we desire to know. The one is, how it is possible that the messenger of God, who is full of mercy and pity, should have no pity on reprobates that day, seeing that they are of the same clay as himself? The other is, how is it to be understood that the sword of Michael is heavy as ten hells; then is there more than one hell?' Jesus replied: 'Have ye not heard what David the prophet saith, how that the just shall laugh at the destruction of sinners, and shall deride him with these words, saying: "I saw the man who put his hope in his strength and his riches, and forgot God." Verily, therefore, I say unto you, that Abraham shall deride his father, and Adam all reprobate men: and this shall be because the elect shall rise again so perfect and united to God that they shall not conceive in their minds the smallest thought against his justice; therefore shall each of them demand justice, and above all the messenger of God. As God liveth, in whose presence I stand, though now I weep for pity of mankind, on that day I shall demand justice without mercy against those who despise my words, and most of all against those who defile my gospel. Amazingly Quran says the same: (5:78) Those Children of Israel who defied [God] were cursed through the words of David, and Jesus, son of Mary, because they disobeyed, they persistently overstepped the limits, they did not forbid each other to do wrong. How vile their deeds were Gospel of Mathew Verse 34 A good man brings good things out of the good stored up in him, and an evil man brings evil things out of the evil stored up in him. But I tell you that everyone will have to give account on the day of judgment for every empty word they have spoken. For by your words you will be acquitted, and by your words you will be condemned.� There is no unconditional love. Justice is part of God's love for mankind and had it not been for God's justice mankind would have been worst than it already is. |
Posted By: syed_z
Date Posted: 23 November 2016 at 10:09pm
Greetings David, I appreciate your explanation. The fact that people like Saved misinterpret words of Quran and claim that its a religion of violence and there is no love, so my point to show him that such words also exist in the Gospel and can be misinterpreted. I am very well aware of the personality of Jesus son of Mary (alaihi Salaam) and all other prophets. They were the best to walk on earth, they are all beloved to us and we make no distinction between the messengers of God, in other words we don't cherry pick Prophets. We don't reject one and accept the other. We Hear the Command of God and We Obey, and that is what defines servitude and a true believer. I appreciate your words my friend. Thank you. |
Posted By: DavidC
Date Posted: 24 November 2016 at 8:45am
Thank you, Syed. The resource I found most valuable as a Christian in understanding violence in Islam was Martin Ling's biography of Muhammad. Ling used hadith exclusively as his source, so one can read direct accounts of Muhammad acting as a general through a well documented, traditional muslim perspective. Muhammad's sense of chivalry, fair play and mercy are shown to be a definitive part of his ethos. The Qu'ran is limited in discussing violence, and reading hadith is exhausting. I think Ling did a good job of presenting an orthodox Muslim perspective and anyone interested in understanding violence within Islam as Muslims understand it would do well to start with Ling. It is also simply a fascinating read, and biography of one of histories most important personalities. ------------- Christian; Wesleyan M.Div. |
Posted By: Saved
Date Posted: 24 November 2016 at 3:38pm
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Posted By: Saved
Date Posted: 24 November 2016 at 5:49pm
I just like calling a spade a spade. I don't like beating around the bush so to speak. You are the one giving misinterpretation to the gospel implying Jesus used a sword to commit violence when I believe you know better. |
Posted By: Saved
Date Posted: 24 November 2016 at 6:52pm
With all due respect to you and your religion. Let me ask you a few questions since you are trying to convince me that the gospel can be interpreted as promoting violence, and I'll rest my case. Did Jesus carry a sword? Did Jesus use a sword on anyone? Did Muhammad carry a sword? Did he use it on anyone? Did Jesus love his enemies? Did Muhammad love his enemies? We are suppose to model and be like Jesus. Who are you suppose to model? PBUY, Saved |
Posted By: syed_z
Date Posted: 24 November 2016 at 11:27pm
Greetings David, Thank you for your comments. I haven't personally read Martin Ling's work on Prophet Muhammad's biography but I have read many Muslim and Non-Muslims who have referred to his work in their writings. So I think he is one of the influential Non-Muslim writers on Prophet Muhammad's life. I do agree that Prophet Muhammad is one of most important personalities in history. In addition to Martin there are other Non-Muslim writers who have given an honest account of his life and how Quran was his guide in achieving the mission he was sent with. In fact one of the very recent Christian writers named Michael Hart in his work called '100 Most Influential People in history' ranked Prophet Muhammad (SallAllahu alaihi Wassallam) as # 1. He explains his choice in the following words: "My choice of Muhammad to lead the list of the world's most influential persons may surprise some readers and may be questioned by others, but he was the only man in history who was supremely successful on both the religious and secular levels...
Muhammad founded and promulgated one of the world's great religions, and became an immensely effective political leader. Today, thirteen centuries after his death, his influence is still powerful and pervasive... Like all religions, Islam exerts an enormous influence upon the lives of its followers. It is for this reason that the founders of the world's great religions all figure prominently in this book. Since there are roughly twice as many Christians as Moslems in the world, it may initially seem strange that Muhammad has been ranked higher than Jesus. There are two principal reasons for that decision. First, Muhammad played a far more important role in the development of Islam than Jesus did in the development of Christianity. Although Jesus was responsible for the main ethical and moral precepts of Christianity (insofar as these differed from Judaism), St. Paul was the main developer of Christian theology, its principal proselytizer, and the author of a large portion of the New Testament.
Muhammad, however, was responsible for both the theology of Islam and its main ethical and moral principles. In addition, he played the key role in proselytizing the new faith, and in establishing the religious practices of Islam. Moreover, he is the author of the Moslem holy scriptures, the Koran, a collection of certain of Muhammad's insights that he believed had been directly revealed to him by Allah. Most of these utterances were copied more or less faithfully during Muhammad's lifetime and were collected together in authoritative form not long after his death. The Koran therefore, closely represents Muhammad's ideas and teachings and to a considerable extent his exact words. No such detailed compilation of the teachings of Christ has survived. Since the Koran is at least as important to Moslems as the Bible is to Christians, the influence of Muhammed through the medium of the Koran has been enormous It is probable that the relative influence of Muhammad on Islam has been larger than the combined influence of Jesus Christ and St. Paul on Christianity. On the purely religious level, then, it seems likely that Muhammad has been as influential in human history as Jesus.
Furthermore, Muhammad (unlike Jesus) was a secular as well as a religious leader. In fact, as the driving force behind the Arab conquests, he may well rank as the most influential political leader of all time... the Arab conquests of the seventh century have continued to play an important role in human history, down to the present day. It is this unparalleled combination of secular and religious influence which I feel entitles Muhammad to be considered the most influential single figure in human history." http://www.adherents.com/adh_influ.html#Muhammad Keeping Hart's explanation in mind is why we Muslims believe that Allah (swt) refers to the life of Prophet Muhammad (sallAllahu alaihi Wassallam) as the best example for entire mankind till the day of judgment: Al Quran 33:21 The Messenger of God is an excellent model for those of you who put your hope in God and the Last Day and remember Him often. Whether you are father, husband, suffering from poverty, political leader, military commander, Employer (referred to as Master in the past), A judge , a spiritual leader etc, whatever you are, there is a best model available for you in the life of the Final Messenger of God. As for your words of 'Violence within Islam' I would humbly disagree because to me violence is a form of lunacy. In the teachings of Islam Muslims are not allowed to resort to violence at any circumstances. They can only resort to fighting in self defense. Allah (swt), did not only gave permission to the Muslims to fight when faced with aggression but also people of other religions to defend themselves if they are attacked by similar force: Al Quran 22:38-40 Those who have been attacked are permitted to take up arms because they have been wronged��God has the power to help them�� those who have been driven unjustly from their homes only for saying, �Our Lord is God.� If God did not repel some people by means of others, many monasteries, churches, synagogues, and mosques, where God�s name is much invoked, would have been destroyed. The above Verse
was the first commandment allowing Muslims to fight in self defense only
after they had been patient against severe persecution done to them for
more than 10 years. Just FYI, Muslims don't own monasteries, churches and synagogues. The message of the Quran is a Universal one. Thank you. |
Posted By: DavidC
Date Posted: 25 November 2016 at 6:10am
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Martin Lings (not Ling, my bad) was Muslim. A thorough scholar, he cited many hadith from the more obscure collections.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martin_Lings ------------- Christian; Wesleyan M.Div. |
Posted By: syed_z
Date Posted: 25 November 2016 at 7:05pm
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Oh I see, interesting. Thanks for correcting me. Like I said I never read his work but saw it referenced by other writers. Thank you for sharing the link. |
Posted By: DavidC
Date Posted: 25 November 2016 at 10:01pm
Maybe Santa Claus will bring you a copy for Christmas!  ------------- Christian; Wesleyan M.Div. |
Posted By: syed_z
Date Posted: 26 November 2016 at 5:43am
I don't believe in fairy tales like Santa clause. You're most welcome to send me one. |
Posted By: DavidC
Date Posted: 26 November 2016 at 7:54am
With pleasure my friend. It's on sale this weekend for under $11. PM me an address. If you are not in the US send a bitcoin address. https://www.amazon.com/Muhammad-Life-Based-Earliest-Sources/dp/1594771537/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1480175183&sr=8-1&keywords=martin+lings+muhammad+his+life+based+on+the+earliest+sources ------------- Christian; Wesleyan M.Div. |
Posted By: Saved
Date Posted: 26 November 2016 at 12:47pm
But I agree; Muhammad is unlike Jesus! |
Posted By: 2Acts
Date Posted: 26 November 2016 at 2:24pm
There is no misrepresentation of the Quaran when it comes to violence. It is very clear. It promotes violence. In terms of violence the Quran and New Testament are poles apart. People try to find Jesus advocating violence with a couple of verses that are obviously only figurative. Violence in the Quran is very easy to find. The Quaran is full of verses advocating violence. Compare Jesus to Mohamad. Jesus never advocated violence. Mohamad however was a violent man. |
Posted By: syed_z
Date Posted: 27 November 2016 at 9:03am
Thank you my friend. I already have the Quran and Sunnah which is sufficient. As for the $11, I would suggest you to give in charity so it benefits all of us in this world and the hereafter. |
Posted By: 2Acts
Date Posted: 02 December 2016 at 3:16pm
Michael Hart ? Never heard of him. |
Posted By: asep48garut60
Date Posted: 05 December 2016 at 5:49pm
Dear Saved, Yes you are right that we must respect our respective beliefs, even in Islam, Allah forbids to force others to embrace Islam, as in His word (Quran 2:256) Sorry, I'm not trying to convince you that the Gospel can be interpreted as promoting violence, could you please show me about my statement as you mean? As far as I know that Jesus did not carry a sword and never used the sword to anyone. And yes, Muhammad carrying a sword and was used only for those who fight against the Muslim Ummah and will eliminate the religion of Allah on this earth. Other than that, he never used the sword, he did not kill the prisoner of war captives even told them to go back to his troops after they were given food and horses for their vehicles. It's proof that Muhammad also love his enemies. Umar bin Khattab (before converting to Islam) came to the Prophet Muhammad with the intent to kill him, and Mohammad did not fight hi with the sword, he only fought with Quran 20:1-8 I think a model like Jesus would be suitable for his followers when Jesus was on earth, because at the time of Jesus, there were no openly fought him with swords etc., In contrast to the time of Muhammad, there were many who want to kill him and even to wipe his teachings by fighting Muhammad and his followers (the situation is different). You said: �Who are you suppose to model?� My model is Muhammad, because he is the most suitable to be a model in the face of today's life and so on. Regards, Asep |
Posted By: DavidC
Date Posted: 06 December 2016 at 5:55am
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>>As far as I know that Jesus did not carry a sword and never used the sword to anyone.<<
Correct. No evidence of Jesus ever carrying a sword. He did tell His disciples they should buy swords just before he was arrested (rushed right now; sorry, no reference). Context makes this a prediction of their coming scattering and flight, and everything argues against their being used as implements of aggression. ------------- Christian; Wesleyan M.Div. |
Posted By: syed_z
Date Posted: 06 December 2016 at 9:47am
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2Acts
I'm unable to make them hear who choose to remain deaf. Thanks, |
Posted By: asep48garut60
Date Posted: 07 December 2016 at 8:44pm
Dear David C, Thank you for your kind explanation. Regards, Asep |
Posted By: Saved
Date Posted: 09 December 2016 at 4:14pm
Muhammad might be suitable for you and as your prophet, but I don't see how that makes him a suitable universal prophet for the world; since most of the world frowns on child marriage. Jesus didn't have this problem and many wanted him dead and they finally succeeded only to find out they won a battle but lost the war on deception |
Posted By: airmano
Date Posted: 11 December 2016 at 1:37pm
2Acts:
Micheal Hart gets cited over and over again [in the Muslim world] because in a book he wrote, he calls Mohamed the most influential person in human history. That nobody in the West knows this bloke doesn't stop anybody citing him in support of Islam and Mohamed. It is as if I quoted a certain John Knox from downtown Bakersfield for his Tee-shirt with "The Quran is wrong" written on it as a proof against Quran. It probably tells more about the psychological state Islam is in [and possibly the desperate wish of being recognized by western(?) intellectuals] then about the Quran (or Mohamed) being right. Where things get fully out of control is when you look at the https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_H._Hart - Wiki about Micheal Hart . I would give him some credit for analyzing "Fermi's Paradox" but his white supremacist speaking and acting would forbid me citing him in support of my theories - even if he was in line with [some of] my thoughts. Ah, and one anecdote about him is particularly telling: Hart organized a conference held in Baltimore in 2009 with the title, Preserving Western Civilization. It was billed as addressing the need to defend "America's Judeo-Christian heritage and European identity" from immigrants, Muslims(!), and African Americans. Well, Airmano ------------- The word God is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human weaknesses (Albert Einstein 1954, in his "Gods Letter") |
Posted By: Saved
Date Posted: 13 December 2016 at 10:07am
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Posted By: Saved
Date Posted: 13 December 2016 at 11:46am
This guy Hart wanted to make some money; so, he found a topic and statement that would put him in the venue he wanted to be in with Muslim whom he is making a great deal of his money from. |
Posted By: asep48garut60
Date Posted: 18 December 2016 at 11:25am
Dear Saved, Maybe you should know in advance about the history of why Muhammad married with a child, after that, there will appear a conclusion. I idolized him because the main qualities he has, namely: Siddiq (Honestly), Amanah (trustful), fathanah (intelligent), and Tabligh (submit). If the 4 things above are described one by one, it'll be quite long. Regards, Asep |
Posted By: Saved
Date Posted: 20 December 2016 at 8:01am
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Posted By: 2Acts
Date Posted: 20 December 2016 at 12:16pm
This is not correct. During the time of Jesus his people (The Jewish nation of Israel) were being violently oppressed by Rome. Many friends of Jesus wanted violent revolution. And Jesus was openly fought against by the sword and violence. He was taken and killed by force - by the sword. |
Posted By: 2Acts
Date Posted: 20 December 2016 at 12:37pm
Canonical Gospels ? Actually YES ! The four canon Gospels of Mathew, Mark, Luke and John were established canon Gospels before Mohamad was even born. Mohamad either knew this � so commands you to believe them. Or else he was confused and ignorant of the �People of the Book� and the Injil. Which one ? You seem very certain as to what the lost "Q" Gospels says which is amusing considering Q is only a theory and even if it is a lost gospel which no one has ever seen - how can you be so certain ? |
Posted By: 2Acts
Date Posted: 20 December 2016 at 2:21pm
The truth hurts! You want proof? Ok.Many of the manuscripts showed the sign of palimpsests, i.e., versions very clearly written over even earlier washed off versions. Research suggests that the Sana�a manuscripts are not only variants to the present version of the Quran, but the Sana�a manuscripts themselves were variants of earlier version, re-written on the same paper. It means, Allah�s claim that original text is preserved in heaven on golden tablets (Q 56: 77�78; 85:21�22), which none can touch except angels is also a fairy-tale. The Arabic scholar Puin's other radical theory is that pre-Islamic sources have entered the Quran. The Arabic sholar Wansbrough�s concluded that the Quran evolved only gradually in the seventh and eighth centuries after a long period of oral transmissions. You say millions have memorised the Quran. What Quran ? You have no original. The Sanaa Quran is the oldest and it proves the Quran you are all memorising is not reliable. And actually the Bible is the most validated of all ancient writings. More ancient copies exist than any other ancient writing, for example the Roman history of Julius Caesar, and others. Plus these copies cover a huge and wide geographic area that prevents them from being gathered together and falsified. |
Posted By: Ceo3
Date Posted: 20 December 2016 at 7:57pm
In which language was the bible revealed? Or better still what language was it written down by Constantinople 300 yrs after Jesus AS? The Quran and there is no doubt about this was revealed in original Quranic Arabic, written down and still today same words (you need to have studied Arabic to understand significance of this) after about 10yrs of death of Rasullulah SAW. If you say versions washed off and rewritten, wouldnt you need previous version to ascertain difference? And research by whom? You quote a theory, which is just that and 1 other, where the proof of authenticity by non muslim historians alone are countless. How many have memorised the bible word for word, even if as u say Quran not valid, you have to admit that a 6 yr old that can quote any verse in the Quran at will is amazing? It was the Romans, who persecuted the christians beforehand, who compiled the bible not the original christians and before that unknown who was in charge. Qurans collation was always in hands of original muslims whose characters were par excellance.In the process the romans, included aspects of zeus and their pagan superstitions into the bible to suit their ideals. Did you know the first mention of trinity was only in the reign of Constantine, when he had to choose which of the different christian sects to support? |
Posted By: airmano
Date Posted: 22 December 2016 at 8:19am
@CEO3
Fact is that even the people who did study Arabic disagree on the meaning of many surah's so one can at least argue about the quality/precision of "the message". -----------------------------------------------------------------------------
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Could you cite some of these (many ?) non-Muslim sources ? ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
So what does this prove ? -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Why should he do it in one case (Muslims) and not in the other (Christians) ? Doesn't make sense: Airmano ------------- The word God is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human weaknesses (Albert Einstein 1954, in his "Gods Letter") |
Posted By: Ceo3
Date Posted: 22 December 2016 at 11:20pm
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Dear Airmano,
1. I did not say understand Quran, i said understand significance of Arabic being the chosen language. At the advent of Islam arabs reverted simply by listening to the words of the Quran as the structure and poetic substance could not have been man made. 1400 Years and none has come close to producing a Surah to match this, not even you'all super computers. 2. Wikipedia, really? Nothing there when clicked. 3. Ok, since no proof from you side. Petra Sijpesteijn, professor of Arabic language and culture at Leiden University, Martin Lings. 4. A game where memorisation of 1000 possible scenarios vs over 6000 verses in order. 5. Torah and Bible were not protected from mans influence. Therefore another religion with close to 2 billion followers had to be. Dont forget your very own Michael Hart called Muhammed SAW top in his analysis. Therefore it is known without doubt by historians he never told a lie growing up and always honest. Even the tribes refered dispute to him based on his character alone. He SAW spoke the truth when he said the Quran was revealed to Him. Ps: Einsteins comment of God, the man whose theories are being disproved by the day. Yet the science of Quran still holds.... |
Posted By: 2Acts
Date Posted: 23 December 2016 at 8:50pm
Which language was the bible revealed? Before it was in written form the oral tradition would have been Aramaic and Greek, and later when written down it was in Greek. Did you know Greek was the most widely read and spoken of the ancient languages and it is also the most precise in terms of grammar of the ancient languages. This was to the advantage of spreading the Christian message. It means the words of Jesus and his disciples was extremely accurate. Not like the clumsiness of Islam which is constrained by only one language � Arabic, which most Muslims don�t even speak and understand. Actually Constadine never wrote the Bible. His church translated it however into the Latin language. However by that stage the Bible was written in many languages, for example Coptic, Aramaic, Greek , Syriac and Aramaic . Languages differ but the meaning remains the same. It was not constrained by just one clumsy language like Arabic. You ask if versions of the Sanaa Quran were washed off and rewritten, wouldn�t it need a previous version to ascertain the difference? That�s my point. There were different versions that all disagreed with each other. Also remember before the Quran was compiled it was oral and written on scraps of paper, bone etc. What the Sanna Quran shows is that early Muslims could not agree what it said. You ask research by whom? It was conducted by Gerard Puin an Arabic scholar and an authority on Qur'anic historical orthography, the study and scholarly interpretation of ancient manuscripts. He is also a specialist in Arabic paleography. He was a lecturer of Arabic at Saarland University. He understands Classical Arabic better than most Muslims on this planet. You ask if I am amazed that a 6 year old can quote the whole Quran. No not really. All most of them do is recite it like parrots without even knowing what it means. You say Qurans collation was always in hands of original Muslims whose characters were par excellance. What you forget was that Uthman had to destroy all copies that did not agree with his version. Were the original Muslims characters par excellence ? The fact remains they fought each other in civil war and disagreed over what version of the Quran to believe. Most of the early caliphs were murdered. Not much excellent character there ! You need to learn more about Church history. The Bible canon was well established before Constatine was born. And actually The first canon was the Muratorian dated to about AD 180. Long before Constatine. So your idea of the Romans including aspects of zeus and their pagan superstitions into the bible is not based on historical fact. Did you know the Trinity is not even mentioned in the Bible but the three aspects of God - God the Father, God The Son and The Holy Spirit are found in the canonised scriptures long before Constatine and the Roman Church came into being. Christological discussions and debates about the three aspects of God - God the Father, God The Son and The Holy Spirit were happening long before Constatine. |
Posted By: Saved
Date Posted: 28 December 2016 at 11:45am
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