I have a young friend I've met from another site.  Recently she's been offered marriage from another young man.  They are both Iraqis living in the UK and both college students.  My young friend is very fond of the young man and wants the match.  Her father has agreed and they are going to be married soon.  The young man was raised in Iraq, the young woman was born and raised in Britian. 

Now, recently she has been chastised by a friend because her new husband to be does not believe in Purdah.  The friend, male, told her she was going to hell and that she was moving away from Islam because she did not believe in Purdah either.

Now, I started to read a few things on Purdah and I can't understand it.  If a woman has the right to chose who she marries, has a right to own her property, business, and she is required by the Quran to seek education.  How can Purdah be required?  How can a woman be damned to hell because she has a job or goes to the grocery store without a male escort? 

Women are intelligent, caring and loving.  Women have alot to offer society.  Women can be nurses, doctors, teachers and lawyers.  Yet, Purdah would keep women from filling these roles.  If a woman is in Purdah, she could not be a doctor.  Yet, many muslim men would faint if their wife when to a male ob/gyn. 

So, I would like to start a dialogue on Purdah in Islam and Women's rights as given by the Quran.  I don't want certain antagonists of this board to participate.  This is not a place for christian ideals or american rhetoric.  (Rami, I would very much like for you to keep a close eye on this forum, if certain people and you know who I'm talking about start being being rude, I'd like their comments removed.)  This forum is to be a discussion on the future of Women in Islam and the ideals of Purdah.

I for one can tell you, that Purdah itself is a big factor in why so many people who are exposed to the outskirts of Islam, never look into it further.  As a professional woman who's income is vital to the survival of the family, I personally think modesty and chasity have nothing to do with being locked up and not allowed to go outside and more to do with the character of the woman.

So, please, lets keep this discussion intelligent and respectful.

Angela

PS:  I put this discussion here because I also want the Brothers to chime in and discuss this.

Peace Angela,

Since I'm neither christian nor american I guess I am not one of the antagonists that you mention (least I hope not ).

Purdah is about women dressing to cover what should not be seen.  That is sanctioned in the Qur'an and ahadith.  Separating men and women, to the best of my knowledge, is not an Islamic injunction, but rather a cultural one.  Surely others with more knowledge of Islam might contribute better information about this.

In the Prophet's day, men and women intermingled for discussion, prayer, war, peace, community affairs and so on.  As long as men and women lower their gaze and are dressed "islamically", then being together is all right. 

Of course, no Muslim man or woman should ever be alone with a non-mahram.  But to be at a wedding, or a supper at a friends or at the mall or mosque or where ever, is just fine - as long as the limits of lowering the gaze and being properly dressed are followed.

It is culture and "twisted islam" that have entrenched this idea of total separation of men and women into the ummah.  Thank you for opening up this dialogue.  Insha'allah, there will be many enlightening posts for the benefit of us all.

Peace, ummziba.

Assalamu alaikum,

You are correct, Deus, purdah is not Arabic.  It is Urdu.  The concept of purdah comes from the Indian subcontinent and is also practiced by some Hindus. 

There is not even an equivelent word in Arabic as complete separation and confinment of women is not an Islamic concept.  Some misogynist took the Islamic concept of hijab and turned it into something very ugly.

Some Muslims, especially ones who speak Urdu, use the word Purdah to mean what hijab means - but its meaning is not the same!

Peace, ummziba.

Bismillah,

Angela, I agree with Ummziba on this also. 

 I thought you had the meaning of the word purdah wrong because I had heard it used as "hijab" by my Pak friends also.  So I learned the real meaning of the word, but I guess if the Paks use it the other way, then that is legitimate also.

bismillah irrahman irrahim

Assalamu alaikum,

the word purdah as sisters have said can b used in both ways but i wana get back to ur question bout how can a covered up lady be a successful person in all modern western sense.  Angela wrote bout some qualities of women, intelligent, loving and caring and there can be million more reasons.  Our dear prophet saw has said that among worldly things he likes perfumes n women n people who explain this hadith say that women have ability to adopt or have this basic nature which has qualities most loved by our lord.  So no denying in having qualities but now does me covering myself up would cover those qualities and skills as well? the answer is no.  now alhamdulillah i wear my long dress n scarf and have an excellent profession n also know sisters all covered up who are in the same institute, one on consultant's post n she even veils her face but when she speaks everybody listens cos they know she is one of the best in our place. so no me covering myself up does not stop me from having a successful career.  But one thing no prejudice n sorry if i offend some1 i am certain that when i sit some where r walking in a corridor no1 is weighing me up cos of my apperance, people see u as a person n respect ur views.

Allah swt in his full knowledge blessed us with the order of covering up properly, now every1 knows how hard it is for a teenage girl to bring up a kid on her own. u must be thinking whats the relevance here, relevance is that showing ur flesh attracts opposite sex, u have relationship n all that. which ends up one century later in what america is today. where young kids carry guns n kill their school mates n other ppl. reason is that they dont have a stable family to have a healthy n good environment to grow in.  its just an example reason being america is one of most advanced countries with most resources.  I know every1 would say bout muslim world n faults in us but reason is we are not following properly what our lord told us cos there is a reason n blessing in every command of our lord n us mortal humans cant c beyond a certain point to understand that.

wassalam

Fatima,

I totally agree with the concept of dressing modestly.  I am not muslim, but I still dress very modestly by western standards.  I do not wear low cut tops or hip hugger jeans.  In the summer you might see my elbows, but never my knees.  Too many girls this short skirts and skimpy tops are freedom and they are not.  I guess what I'm getting at is this is not a Hijab/Niqab question.  The Hijab is a beautiful protection and expression of faith and obedience to a Muslim woman.  For those that chose the burqah, and I stress "Chose" the burqah.  Well, that is wonderful if that's what they want. 

My concern is the practice of being locked away in your home.  My friend was very upset to be chastised so meanly because she intended to have a job and a life outside of her home.  A woman should never spend too much time with a man she's not married to, but that is no excuse for locking her up.  A woman is smart enough to know right from wrong, locking her up is compelling obedience.

I've always been taught intentions are everything.  If you intend to sin, but don't.  Your just as guilty as if you did.  If you don't intend to sin and accidently sin, then it can be forgiven.  So, if a woman is truly the wanton evil creature described in the article I read on this topic, then locking her up is not going to change those intentions. 

A person convinced against their will is of the same opinion still.

Hi Angela,

Of course, the decision is your friends to make, but I would suggest she not accept a marriage proposal from a man who wants to "keep her at home" when this is clearly not what she wants for herself.

How lucky she learned this about him before it is too late.....

Peace, ummziba.

The man she wishes to marry doesn't want her to stay home.  Its another friend who told her not to marry him because he doesn't believe in Purdah, nor does she.

The situation just peeked my curiosity about the subject.  My friend is very happy and the muslim man she is marrying seems to be a good muslim and a good man.  He's very encouraging towards her finishing her degree and actually using it. 

I just don't understand, there just doesn't seem to be any basis for it.  Khadijah owned her own business.  Aisha was out enough to have passed on little insights into the Prophet as a man and husband.  These were not women locked away from the world.  So, if the Prophet allowed his wives to be out, how could any man justify absolute seclusion of his wife from the world?

Oooops!

Sorry, I was a little slow in getting the right story .  So, of course she should marry him and ignore the silly mysogynist friend with the bad advice!

The basis for "purdah" doesn not come from Islam, it comes from culture.  A bad (and sad) attempt by some misguided men to control their women.  How do they justify it?  Beats me, but I am sure they think they are correct, just as many wrongdoers justify things to themselves to make it seem right in their minds.

There is a verse in the Qur'an about this, about the wrongdoers and how they make evil seemingly good in their own minds - I wish I could find it for you.....(if I do I'll post it).

Peace, ummziba.

As Salamu Alaikum

Good topic. Insha Allah I will address this topic from a different angle.

Allah Subhanahu wa Ta'ala tells us in the Glorious Qur'an:

"Men are Qawwamun (protectors and maintainers) of women, because Allah has made one of them to excel the other and because they spend (to support them) from their means�. Surah An-Nisa' 4:34 (part)

We are given specific roles to play, according to Allah's Wisdom and Knowledge.

Men are responsible for the welfare of the family- food, clothes, shelter. Women are responsible for the household. Both duties compliment each other.

Islam places emphasis on seeking knowledge for both male and female. Why would women need education if they are going to be locked behind doors. A mother realizes that her responsibility in bringing up the children and forming their characters is greater than that of the father, because children are closer to their mothers and spend more time with her. (from birth to when they join pre-school) Her own education and knowledge about the environment and other social issues, play a great role in shaping the characters of her children.

She already has a full time job thus there is no need for any women to work, outside the home. However if circumstances are such that a woman needs to work there is no harm. We need qualified women in various professions e.g. like a doctors, teachers etc. But these women need to be super women because they work at a career, then their homes and also need to take care of their children and not forgetting the husband, fulfilling his needs as well. Masha Allah many women have succeeded in accomplishing all these duties.

Those of us who believe that Hijab/Purdah, is an obligation, will not find any problems wearing them to work. I know of doctors, lawyers, teachers and others who work comfortably wearing even a Niqab (face veil). If they do face problems, these soon fade away without them having to compromise on their dressing. Wearing Hijab/Purdah did not prevent them from fulfilling their duties. On the other hand those of us who believe that Hijab/Purdah is not an obligation and feel as long as they are dressed modestly it is okay; Insha Allah that is their choice.

If both the man and the woman do not wish for the woman to wear Hijab/Purdah, as in this case that Angela mentions, I don't see any problem because both want the same thing. Both don't believe that Hijab/Purdah is an obligation.

The friend, obviously is giving good advice because she believes that Hijab is an obligation.

No Muslim who really understands the teaching of Islam will "lock his wife" at home. But it is better for the women to remain indoors if there is no immediate/urgent need for her to go out.

Let me give you an example:

The Prophet (Sallallahu 'Alayhi wa Sallam) said:

"If the wife of any of you asks for permission to go to the Masjid, do not stop her." (Al-Bukhari)

And a second Hadith:

"Do not prevent women from attending the Masjid; even though their houses are better for them." (Abu Dawud)

Salah is the second pillar of Islam. If women need to ask their husbands' permission to go to the Masjid then this means that Islam has excused women from offering their obligatory prayer in congregation. It is even better for them to pray at home. If women don't need to leave their homes to fulfill an obligation, i.e. Salah, then is there a need for them to work when the financial responsibility is an obligation on their husbands and not them; not only on their husbands, but their fathers or guardians if they are unmarried. If she does chose to work, I feel she should chose a profession like being a doctor so that she can treat only women and/or children or teacher � teaching young children or girls; two examples; choosing professions which will minimize working with men or along side men.

Anyway this is my opinion on a general level. Like I mentioned earlier, every person's situation is different and they need to make the right choices to stay within the boundaries set by the Shariah.

Wa Alaikum Salam

Alwardah,

I so agree with you in that every woman's situation is different.  For example, in a society that would lock women up, I personally would go insane.  I am educated and I cannot have children.  So, what job would I have?  You can only clean the house so many times in the week when it is just you and your husband.  LOL 

My friend is young, I've talked to her about the Hijab.  She does believe in it to a certain extent.  She says the Hijab is her one weakness. 

However, I thought Purdah was a completely different concept as the definition of Purdah I've gotten is "seculsion" where a Hijab means modesty to me?

I don't know if you are a brother, but I would like more imput from the brothers on this. 

Its nice to have the luxury of being a stay at home mother.  I have many friends here that have made that choice dispite the financial hardships on the family.  One is waiting until her daughters are school age before returning to work while they are in school.

Hi Angela

I am educated and I cannot have children, stay at home and Alhamdulillah (Praise be to Allah) am still sane.

Alwardah wrote: Hi Angela I am educated and I cannot have children, stay at home and Alhamdulillah (Praise be to Allah) am still sane.

Sure, but do you ever leave your house?  Go to the Grocery store, go to a friend's house, Go to a Gym, Art Class, library????

Unfortunately, women in the Purdah imposed in Afganistan or in other areas don't have that luxury. 

If we could afford it, I would probably quit work and adopt a child, go back to school or take up a hobby like photography. 

Perhaps I should post the article I found on a website to show where I'm coming from in this arguement.  Its very lengthy but it argues that women are wanton and uncontrollable if left outside the house and that men, simply because they are physically stronger are superior.

http://www.al-islamforall.org/Misc/purdah.pdf - http://www.al-islamforall.org/Misc/purdah.pdf

Now, I have never argued the Hijab.  I personally wear a headscarf occasionally and having been raised Russian Orthodox Christian don't see it as a barrier to life.  I just want to make that clear.  I'm not arguing, scarf and veil vs mini skirt.  Because I don't believe in skimpy clothes myself.

I'm more concerned with opening a dialogue and understanding why this sort of behaviour happens and its tolerated by mainstream muslims.

Hi Angela

I am not sure about the situation in Afghanistan or else. I am one of those who does not pay much attention to the media.

About ten years back, when I went to perform Umrah (lesser pilgrimage) � meaning I went to Saudi Arabia, I found the situation there completely different to what is portrayed in the media. There are problems in every country, every society and every religion but I feel that where Islam and Muslim women are concerned things are blown out of proportion, so personally I think most of us just ignore what the media presents.

I could not connect to the link you posted, I will try again later.

Take care

Regarding of Purdah Almighty Allah gives us a very clear direction or instructions in the Holy Quran as mentioned below.

Ch# 24 (Surah Al- Nur) Verse 31

Allah Subhanahu wa Ta'ala says � and tell the believing women to lower their gaze ((from looking at forbidden things), and protect their private parts and not show off their adornment except only that which is apparent (like palms of the hand or eyes for necessity to see the way etc.) and to draw their veils all over juyubihinna (i.e. their bodies, neck and bosoms etc) and not to reveal their adornment except to their husband, their father, their husband father, their sons, their husband sons, their brothers or their brother sons or their sister sons or their (Muslim) women) or the (female) slaves whom their rights hand possess or old male servants who lack vigor, or small children who have no sense of the shame of sex. And let them not stamp their feet so as to reveal what they hide of their adornment. And all of you beg Allah to for give you all, Oh believers that you may be successful�

Purdah is not only for women it also for important for the men as if we see the just previous of the above mentioned verse Almighty Allah passes the same direction for the men in which Allah says.

Ch# 24 (Surah Al- Nur) Verse 30

ummziba wrote)
Sorry, I was a little slow in getting the right story .  So, of course she should marry him and ignore the silly misogynist friend with the bad advice!

The basis for "purdah" doesn not come from Islam, it comes from culture.  A bad (and sad) attempt by some misguided men to control their women.  How do they justify it?  Beats me, but I am sure they think they are correct, just as many wrongdoers justify things to themselves to make it seem right in their minds.

Assalamu alaikum,

Brother Mohammad, I think the mix up here is stemming from the use of an Urdu word, purdah, for an Arabic word, hijab.  Most people do not understand the same meaning from these two words.  Of course hijab is prescribed by Allah in the Qur'an, no arguement there at all.

To most people (in the english speaking world at least) purdah means making a woman stay at home, this is not prescribed in the Qur'an, as you point out when you say Islam does not restrict women staying home.  The confusion is in the words used: purdah does not equal hijab in the understanding of most people.

So let's just try and clear this all up: covering the body and head (which most call hijab) is absolutely the correct Islamic thing to do.  Forcing women to stay at home (which most refer to as purdah) is not.  So, when you say purdah, you may understand it to mean the same as hijab, but most people do not.

Is this helpful, or more confusing?  (By the way, Brother, I wear hijab.)  Have a nice day.

Peace, ummziba.

Assalamu Alaikum

First of all, Brother Mohammad, the question about Purdah is not simply about the ayats you quote as Sister Ummziba pointed out.  The question about Prudah Sister Angela brings forth is about a book called Purdah and The Status of Woman in ISLAM which was written by Sayyid Abul A�la Maududi and was originally published in 1939. 

As I see it, the problem with Purdah (the book) is this.  The author starts out by setting up a very negative image of the world.  No just the non-Muslim world, but all of it.  He believes that not only non-Muslims but also Muslims were living a life away from Allah.  But in setting up his argument, he argues that humans as being created by NATURE and that we are created by natures just like other animals (his worlds) and then he goes on to create a picture of humans that reduces them to not much more than lustful animals.  Of course he gives lots of examples when would lead one to agree with him.  He uses examples of nude beaches and such.  Another step in his argument is that he claims that all societies throughout history that have allowed women to work or interact outside of the home have done so for the benefit of enhancing males sexual desires.  In other word, they have oppressed and devalued women and turned them into little more than sex objects.  He also builds an argument that women are physically weaker than women but no just do to lack of muscle mass.  But the fact that they give birth and have monthly cycle makes them �very nearly sick.�  His research is no well documented and medical information is from 1909.   One such statement from a Professor Lapin Sky in his book The Development of Persoanlity in Women is as follows:

��during menstruation a woman is deprived of her freedom of action; she becomes a slave to involuntary behavior and her capacity to do anything at will is considerably reducted.�

Maududi goes on to say in Purdah �There is evidence to show that a woman loses her mental balance during this period.  She becomes easily irritable and furious, behaves at times in a silly and wild manner, and may even commit suicide.� 

If that is not enough to want men to not only lock women away but to put in insane asylums, take a look at what he says about pregnancy.  �She turns mentally deranged; all her mental and psychic energies remain upset; and a little carelessness can cause her serious illness.�  After pregnancy, things do look much better, in fact, he says that it takes �about a year� for her to get out of this �sick or nearly sick condition.�  And while she is in this condition, �her general efficiency is reduced to half, even to less than half.�  I think someone needed to show this many studies about women in some cultures who give birth and within a matter of a couple of hours are back working the fields with baby strapped on her back.  If what he said were true about women, why would we even risk having children or allowing women to care for them?  With respect to breast feeding, which he argues is a must for a mother to do; he states �The best of her body is turned into milk for the baby.�  What does that even mean?  He goes as far as to say that during the time a mother is beast feeding, what she intakes all goes to the production of milk except for �just that much as can keep her alive.�

I guess if we that human creation to be the result of NATURE, this might be turn; however, Allah didn�t fall short on insight when creating women.  Women are not creatures who are some how rendered emotionally or even physically crippled by virtue of any aspect of their child bearing capacity.  Although there may be some cases where women have had problems with their reproductive cycle, that is by far not the norm.  We don�t need to do research to know this.  All we have to do is look at the current world population and the fact that approximated � of the world population continues to be female.  If Maududi�s argument were correct, the world population would be far less and there would be far fewer women, if for no other reason than from deaths due to suicide and deaths related to child birth.

In all fairness to Maududi, maybe he was simply going on the best research at the time; however given that we are living almost 70 past the time when Purdah was originally published, does it not make sense to update the data?  Why hasn�t someone done that?  Is it possible that his argument would not hold up so well if it were updated?

Now that I�ve pointed out a few problems, let me turn to what he claims �Purdah� is.  Maududi states that �Purdah� is �a title for a set of injunctions, which constitute the most important part of the Islamic system of community life.�  He goes on to say that anyone �who has not wholly lost his powers of discernment� will see that what he say is true.  And that if �this system� works, �the whole woe-stricken world will rush towards this fountainhead of peace and security and seek its help in curing its social maladies.�  I have a problem with this.  His clam in the book is that the Ummah is sick.  He says, �he himself [the Muslim] has got lost and is running after the other blind people in search of light and truth.�  If this is the case, why is he giving us something new?  Why isn�t he just pointing us back to Islam?  What is �this system�, this �set of injunctions�?  Does he think he can do something that the Noble Qur�an could not?  This fountainhead we will be rushing towards.  Is that Islam or his �Purdah�?

I know I�m being long winded here but the book is 152 pages long and he weaves a rather lengthy (and at moments plausible) argument in trying to get his audience to buy his view.  But I�m not ready to leave yet.  The most interesting part of the story is yet to come.

Once he finally gets around to actually discussing the Qur�an, we have read 90 pages of his book.  He first quotes the Qur�an for purposed of his subject in Chapter 10 which begins on page 91.   All I can say is that I was shocked.  It truly appeared to me that the ayats he quoted and the way he translated them were for the sole purpose of justifying his view and not as a means to see if his view held up under Islamic scrutiny.  I have never seen ayats so misquoted before.    

First, he tried to show that the Qur�an agrees with his position that humans were created just like animals.  He quotes Sura 42, Ayat 11 as such

�He has given you wives from among yourselves to multiply you, and cattle male and female.�

when Sura 42, Ayat 11 actually is as follows:

Yusuf Ali Translation: (He is) the Creator of the heavens and the earth: He has made for you pairs from among yourselves and pairs among cattle: by this means does He multiply you: there is nothing whatever like unto Him and He is the One that hears and sees (all things).

Allah is not saying that he created humans and animals the same no more than he is saying he created heaven and earth the same.  It is a quote about �Creation� and definitely not about �NATURE.� 

To make matter worse, right after that he quotes Sura 2, Ayat 223 this way

�Your wives are your farms.�

when that ayat is as follows:

Yusuf Ali Translation: Your wives are as a tilth unto you; so approach your tilth when or how ye will. But do some good act for your souls beforehand; and fear Allah and know that ye are to meet Him (in the Hereafter) and give (these) good tidings to those who believe.

I guess Maududi believes that women are like animals and that  their purpose is basically as a breeding machine.  It interesting that he doesn�t make this same claim about men.  Somehow men are the farmers and women are the farm.  That doesn�t sound like two apples but more like apples and hay.  Why didn�t he see in this ayat that since Allah created woman to be man�s partner, he did so in a manner that was fitted to him (i.e., the reason for the use of the word �tilth��Allah cultivated, created, women as a fitting mate for man).  Well, if we go a bit further in his book, we will see why he needs to set up with distinction between men and women.

In the next chapter, 11, Maududi makes this statement, ��men being the active partner has been justly regarded by Islam as superior to women� and he quote the Qur�an in justifying that claim but he makes the same mistake as before.  That is, he misquotes.  He writes Sura 2, Ayat 228 this way

�Of coarse, men are a degree above them (women).�

when that ayat actually is as follows:

Yusuf Ali Translation: Divorced women shall wait concerning themselves for three monthly periods nor is it lawful for them to hide what Allah hath created in their wombs if they have faith in Allah and the Last Day. And their husbands have the better right to take them back in that period if they wish for reconciliation. And women shall have rights similar to the rights against them according to what is equitable; but men have a degree (of advantage) over them and Allah is Exalted in Power Wise.

The degree that men have over women in his case is a matter regarding divorce.  It has nothing to do with men being superior to women.  In act, it says in this ayat that �women shall have rights similar to the rights against them� but that �men have a degree (of advantage) over them.�  Advantage over what?  In this case, divorce.  How in the world does that mean men are superior?

In the very next section, Man as Provider, of Chapter 11, not even two whole paragraphs later, Maududi, again asserts the superiority of men over women and once again, he misquotes an ayat from the Qur�an.  He does so with Sura 4, Ayat 34 this time.  He translates it in the following way

�Men are the governors of the affairs of women because Allah has made man superior to women and because men spend of their wealth on them.�

when it should be as follows:

Yusuf Ali Translation: Men are the protectors and maintainers of women because Allah has given the one more (strength) than the other and because they support them from their means. Therefore the righteous women are devoutly obedient and guard in (the husband's) absence what Allah would have them guard. As to those women on whose part ye fear disloyalty and ill-conduct admonish them (first) (next) refuse to share their beds (and last) beat them (lightly); but if they return to obedience seek not against them means (of annoyance): for Allah is Most High Great (above you all).

There is nothing here about superiority but rather a division of duties based upon the distinction Allah in His All-Knowing wisdom knows is best for men and women.  If man has a �degree� over women it�s because they work and support the family and are given the duty of being the protector, maintainer and spiritual leader of not only their wife but of their family.  This allows women to be free to do her duties of taking care of the home and raising their offspring if they have any.

I am going to stop quoting at this point because I think it is clear that something is not quite right about the book.  And trust me, it doesn�t get better.  In fact, he goes from men being superior to a full fledged war on why women.  Although women are given the okay by both Allah and the Prophet (pbuh) to work outside the home, to go to the mosque to pay, to have careers of their own, and the right to gain economically from their labor, Maududi had a reason for denying all of those things to women.  He does so in a very subtle way.  He says that women can have those things but solely for the purpose to make betterment of men.  Or has he would say for the �ruler.�  That is, women are to be educated but only insofar as that makes them better wives and mothers.  So they can talk classes on cooking and childcare. They can pray but only in their closets.  They don�t need a career because Allah gave them their only careers, i.e., serving their husband (which includes bearing raising his children); and because they inherit and receive marriage dowry on top of having their husband support them, well, they (women) more often than not end up �economically better off than the husband.�  In other words, women are not to have any ambitions whatsoever outside of their married life.  Ambition is for men and men alone.

And then the rest of the book goes into detail as to how a woman should be in order to be considered virtuous, what the punishment is if she doesn�t act virtuous and how to prevent her from not being virtuous.  Although there are snippets here and there as to the behavior of men, it is usually included as a means to make a point that that is for men but more or something different is expect of women.  Oddly enough, at one point in the book, the author says that men should treat their wives in such a way as to preserve the relationship between �ruler and ruled� and not put it at the level of �master and slave�; however, although �ruler and ruled� is even taken the Qur�an way too far, his book does nothing short of putting the marriage relationship as one of �master and salve�.

Never does he clearly states what the �set of injunctions, which constitute the most important part of the Islamic system of community life�, which he said early on in the book that he was going to put forth, are.  By his own definition of the state of the Ummah and a need for a cure for its �social maladies�, this book should be equally address to the problems of both men and women; however, it is obvious by the book that he feels the entire problem can be simply solved by secluding women from the rest of society.  It is interesting that he comes close to pointing out some problems that men have attributed to the Ummah but he never quite goes there.  I will give you one example.  In discussing �Human Nature and its Demands�, he quotes Sura 3, Ayat 14 this way

�Men are tempted by the lure of women and offspring.�

when the ayat should be as follows:

Yusuf Ali Translation: Fair in the eyes of men is the love of things they covet: women and sons; heaped-up hoards of gold and silver; horses branded (for blood and excellence); and (wealth of) cattle and well-tilled land. Such are the possessions of this world's life; but in nearness to Allah is the best of the goals (to return to).

He was trying to use this ayat to show that man has a natural desire to be married and have children; however, if we consider the full ayat it appears that man has a desire for many things and not just a natural desire to get married and have kids.  In fact, this ayat is about man�s desire for this world and a warning about what the true goal is. 

If man is so inclined to desire this world, why is he free to roam the streets while women are locked away in their homes?  There is no warning that he should be at home if he is not at work.  Does he really think that by secluding women that all of the worlds �woes� will simply disappear?  There are more maladies to this world than sex...there are alcohol, drugs, and gambling for starters.  This is supposed to be a book to help solve the �woes� of the Ummah.  Why is there not more advice and instructions to help men deal with issues they have that keep them off the right path?

Bottom line for me is this book gives rise to more questions and concerns than anything.  It is based upon poor and/or outdated research.  It uses arguments that are Islamically unfitting at times�such as the statement and arguments regarding humans as being a product of nature and are created in the same manner as animals.  It never clearly states what the �set of injunctions� for correcting the woes of the world are and at the same time, it actually distorts and at times even eradicates some of the base commands of both the Noble Qur�an and the Hadith. 

Okay, you probably got more than you wanted but there is my short, but long winded, version of the book.  If anyone would like an e-copy of it, I would be glad to send it to you.  It is an Adobe Reader file.  If you want a copy, just send me you e-mail address through a PM and I will make sure you get it.

Allah Hafiz

PAZ, Khadija

That's the book I posted that doesn't seem to be working when you click on the link.

Mohammed.

I support the HIJAB.  I'm all for it.  If a woman wants a Niqab or Burqah....more power to her. 

I'm more concerned with the idea that the Quran tell's men to lock up their wives.  I've been reading the Quran for the first time and I have yet to see this.  The only example is Mary and it seems from the way it was narrated that when she puts a screen between herself and her family, that its supposed to be an unusual thing...a tremendous act of pioty, not a requirement.

Bismillah,

Dear Sister Khadija, thank you for your excellent analysis of this out-dated book.  Would you consider publishing your work?

free wrote:     Now Angela you might posses a good moral foundation, however there is no doubt women are more susceptible to their thoughts wondering. This is not a sexist comment, and only arises due to the emotions their hormones develop. A Muslim woman is aware during her cycle she is not allowed to pray, which constitutes a disadvantage, for to keep thoughts from festering/wondering is an aspect of the prayer.

First off, I wasn't patronizing you.  I was actually trying to engage in a serious and well thought out conversation.

However I have to disagree with your statement that women are morally inept and more so during their cycles.  Now, I base this reasoning on several factors.  How many men are in prison than women.  Why do fraternity boys have contests to see how many women they can bag in a semester?  Why is it that women are more likely to be straight A students?

They have also found that a woman who has children is more cognizant and mulitasks better than a Man of her same age and economic statis.  Women concentrate better.  Why?  Because we must maintain a higher level of vigilance in our daily lives as we cook, clean, work and raise our children. 

And, frankly, I have never believed, nor will ever believe that because I have a reproductive cycle, given by God, for the purposes of bringing children into this world that it somehow makes me UNCLEAN!  If it were not for a woman's cycle, you would not be here.  I think its pure nonsense to deny woman her links with God because she's somewhere in her natural cycle that HE created.

I don't lose my connection with God once a month.  I enjoy my personal relationship with him always.  With every breath and every waking moment. 

I do not go insane during the weeks of my cycle, I do not get more receptive to sin.  I get ill, but that's physically, not mentally. 

This barbaric and uneducated view of a woman's body is frankly....STUPID.

Free or whoever you are this week.

There is a difference between physical uncleanliness and spiritual uncleanliness.  Both levels of cleanliness can be kept during the period with proper bathing and prayer. 

Your question about my sexual relations with my husband is out of line.  You don't need to know either way. 

I'm to understand you shouldn't pray after sex anyway...in Islam that is.

Besides there are reasons beyond some imagined taint that is put on a woman because of her menstral cycles that keep a woman from having sex during her period.

1.  She's not fertile.

2.  She's in pain and it would not be pleasurable.

3.  She can get an infection easier during her period.

None of these reasons have anything to do with being "unclean."

You act like theres some taint on a woman during her period, like she's touched by the devil because she's bleeding.  This is pure superstition. 

Bismillah, SubhanAllah, Allahu Akbar!

Women are never spiritually unclean unless they, and the same applies to men, are in the act of committing major sins.

Supplication = Du'a = Christian concept of prayer.

Salat = oligatory prostrations five times a day with Du'a included.

Dhikr = Remembering the glorious names and attributes of Allah, SWT. = praising God. (AstagfirAllah! - God's forgiveness, Ma'a Shah Allah!- with God's will and power)

Supplication, dua' AND DHIKR can be made anytime, anywhere, by anyone.  Salat is not required or expected of women during the monthly cycle and after childbirth for 40 days.

Bismillah,

Rami, we are speaking in English, so things need to make sense in this language to people reading and communicating in it. 

Ghusl gives you a higher level of spiritual purity, and then being in a state of salat can go a step further.  But what you are missing is that we can all achieve the highest level of spiritual purity no matter what state we are in.  Allah, SWT, does not put barriers on communcation with his Mercy and Glory, why do you?

free wrote: Angela stated: "Your question about my sexual relations with my husband is out of line. You don't need to know either way." Sorry, but my question about your intimate relations with your husband was to prove that you do in fact feel unclean at that time. And if you let go of your pride, I think you will find my point has been clearly made.

Sister Khadija

Thank you Free for clarifying your statements.  After speaking with Khadija and Herjihad last night, I found that I am at a severe disadvantage.  We use the same words to describe two totally different concepts.  Salah to me was prayer....but I've been explain that the prayer that I understand is Duaa.....so that does change things alot when debating subjects like these.

For example, this thread was to be on Purdah....for me the definition of Purdah is a forced seculsion....while Hijab for me is the obligatory scarf and modesty. 

Hijabs for me are wonderful expressions of faith, while Purdah as practiced in some more tribal areas seems to be against what God gave women in Islam.

After reading Khadija's wonderful synopsis on the subject, I do understand better.

Assalamu Alaikum

Bishmillah

Ashukru-lillahi Rabbil-Alameen (all praise belongs to Allah).  I am but a humble servant trying to serve Him.  Inshallah I am guided in all things, especially when my thoughts go beyond the boundaries of my own mind.  Ameen.

Allah Hafiz

Khadija

I think this will clear things up a little Insha-Allah.

Allah Ta�la mentions in the Noble Qur'an, '(O Muhammad (Sallallaahu Alayhi
Wasallam), tell the believing males to lower their gazes. tell the believing
females to lower their gazes ...' (Quran 24:29-30). The injunction of
lowering the gaze is clear that it is not permissible for strange males and
females to look at one another. Due to the immorality of times and weakness
of resistance, it is compulsory for a female to cover her face which is the
focus of her beauty. The covering of the face conveniently facilitates the
accomplishment of the purpose of lowering the gaze.

and Allah Ta'ala Knows Best

Assalamu Alaikum

Brother Imam, I�m sorry but Sura 24, Ayat 30-31 is not a reference to veiling of the face.  Would you please show me how it is a veiling of the face?   There is a great deal of confusion and a lot of controversy amongst scholars regarding the nature of the face veil.  There is only one reference to veiling in the Holy Qur�an and it is Sura 33, Ayat 53.  If you read it from the beginning to the end and then follow it up with the hadiths that correspond to it, you will see that the command to veil is a command to block outsiders from seeing the private life of the Prophet (pbuh).  It is not a command for all women.  It is about the means and way to protect the privacy of the Prophet (pbuh).  And, it was only a veiling of his wives� faces in some instances.  To veil�to protect�to hide�to cover�was done in a number of ways.  In the case of visitors at the Prophet�s (pbuh) it was a curtain.  When his wives were in public, it was with face veil or other means�even once it was the Prophet�s (pbuh) body which veiled �Aisha from the eyes of some men who were playing a game she wanted to watch.  When the Prophet (pbuh) died, it was the command that no one marry his widows that veiled his life from others (that command is also in Sura 33, Ayat 53).  We cannot use that sura to generalize about all women.  If we did, widows would not be allowed to marry after the death of their husbands.  That is not the case, so how can the other part be the case?  Or do we simply pick and choose what we want to be relevant?  Some people believe that because the Prophet�s wives wore face veils they were the example for all women to follow, if that is the case, isn�t the same true about the Prophet (pbuh)?  If women choose to do that, that is their choice; however, it is no more obligatory for a woman to wear a face veil than it is for a man to wear a turban.  

Allah Hafiz

Sister Khadija

Assalam Alaikum

free wrote: The compulsory Islamic Salah constitutes (much of) a Muslim�s daily protection (from haram thoughts & deeds), when women are forced to break their Salah through the onset of their cycle, they are forbidden from performing those otherwise obligatory duties.

Yes, women are told not to perform salat, not to touch the Holy Qur�an or to fast when they are having their cycle.  However, that doesn�t entail this view you hold that somehow during that time women are more likely to have haraam thoughts or do haraam deeds.  They can still pray�just not salat�they can keep their mind on Allah and even recite the Qur�an ayats they know.  If Allah gives women the right to forego salat due to their condition, it is not the same as when someone chooses to skip salat.  Women are not made to make up those prayers�although they have to make up the missed fasting days during Ramadan, but so do people that are sick.  It is a mercy of Allah that they don�t have to give salat during that time.  If Allah has mercy on them during this time, then why are they more likely to have haraam thoughts or do haraam deeds?  Is Allah not able to protect those He chooses to protect even if they are not praying salat five times a day? 

free wrote: When people (in general) do not perform these duties they lack the protection (from the �whisperer�) they would otherwise posses (by Allah�s Grace), and this constitutes one of the main reasons why women are forbidden from leading mixed congregational prayers, as with the onset of each cycle they are unable to maintain their Islamic practice.

free wrote:  (PS) It hurts me deeply that modern women are all so competitive; I am not surprised I nowadays see - so many men dressed in pink! It seems there is not a single profession where men don�t have to fend of women, won�t you please allow us to have authority in the areas Allah hath made us excel, otherwise you only confuse the weak making men into yourselves! I cannot compete in the areas you hath been made to excel, so please, please, please, can I be a man, or do you want me dressed in pink as well!!!!!!!

What or whom are you referring to?  Competitive?  Competitive in what way?  That they want their Islamic rights?  That they know they are as justified in speaking out about issues in Islam as are men?  That they have as much right as men to work on and deepen their deen?  Some men use the term �modern women� or �western women� or �feminist� any time a women doesn�t agree with them.  It keeps some men feeling as if they are �superior� to women when Allah never said that.  We are equal yet different in Islam.  Equal in our right and responsibilities toward the deepening our deens, yet different in our specific duties as husband and wives.

I am completely okay with my duties as a Muslimah.  I don�t want to compete with men.  Why would I?  As if that is something grand for me to desire to do.  Allah doesn�t forbid women to work.  Yes, there is a lot of competition in the work world, but that is not the fault of women.  Women were forced into the labor force during WWII and since then by economics and an every failing social system.  You are going to blame that on women?  With the way the social system is these days, what are women supposed to do, let their children and themselves starve?  It would be nice if this world were made up of GOOD Muslim homes where both spouses were allowed their right and did their duties.  However, reality is what it is, and you can�t blame that solely on women.

Pink?  If anyone is making men wear pink it is the fashion industry and the last time I checked, that is still a male dominated industry.  Sure, it is full of fashion models but the leaders of the fashion industry are still by far men.  If they weren�t putting out pink shirts for men to wear on the racks, men wouldn�t be buying them.  And even if they are putting them on the racks doesn�t mean men have to buy them.  I would not buy my husband a pink shirt even if he liked the color.  What are you going to say next, that it is the fault of women that there are gay men in the world?

Who�s not letting you be a man?  You sound as if you have no choice in the matter.  Of course you cannot excel in the women�s arena, Allah made sure of that�.Alhamdulillah.  However, do all women have to go into seclusion in order for men to feel as if they are men? I for one don�t want to compete with men.  Even when I was studying, I didn�t take it as a means to compete with men.  All I want is for women to be seen in their true light as Allah wanted them to be seen and not through some twisted view concocted by men to make themselves feel superior at the expensive of women.  And just because I�m not willing to be subjugated by the whims of some men doesn�t mean I�m a feminist.  It�s a shame that Muslimat have to fight for the rights they were given by Allah.  When Allah made Adam and Eve He didn�t construct a little box or cage for Adam to keep Eve in.

Why don�t men like women who have sharp minds?  The want them to be educated yet dumb at that same time�why is that?  If men can be educated and smart yet retain their �haya�, then why do they think women can�t?

Allah Hafiz

Sister Khadija

Bismillah,

I thought it was the cutest thing that kids in Jordan didn't care about wearing pink or blue for babies or even for teenage kids.  I think I read in the Hadith that men can't wear gold ever, or silk unless they need to for their skin's comfort. 

But really not wearing pink is a modern taboo, not an Islaamic injunction!

I don't compete with men.  My husband is the firm head of the household.  But, he recognizes the fact that I have traveled more and I'm more educated than him.  He respects my opinion and treats me as an equal, his helpmeet. 

In "competing" for a promotion.  Gender shouldn't be an issue.  It should solely rely on the qualifications of the two individuals. 

I would scream if women tried to force my church to give the priesthood to them.  That's not for us, we are mothers, we do not need the priesthood.  But, I have taught in church.  All members are asked to give talks.  It keeps us all studying and active.  But, even as I gave my talk, the Bishopric presided over the service. 

Separating women is not giving men their manhood.  Having them step up and do what they should is what does that. 

A man should provide for his family, if that means letting his wife contribute to the income, then so be it.  In this day and age, its nearly impossible to survive on a solitary income. 

A man should be loving, kind and caring towards his children, but not so much as to spoil the children and make them unbearable for his wife to deal with. 

A man should be the disciplinarian....but should never be abusive towards his wife or children.

A man should be pious and humble.  He is OWED nothing by his family, but their love is unconditional as his should be towards them.

A man should be able to accept responsibility for his actions.  This is for the good and the bad, we are all human.  Don't be afraid to admit mistakes.

A man should understand what a gift his wife is...instead of locking her in her room, telling her she's a wanton animal that needs caged for her own good.  He should share her interests with her as she does his.  He should take her to dinner, the movies, to a play, ballet or opera.  Together they should take their kids to the park, playgroud or soccer game.  He should cherish that God decided that it was not good for man to be alone and created woman for him.  He should value her mind, her spirit and her soul.  Read Quran with her, pray together and encourage her growth.

Giving a woman respect is not giving up your manhood.  Its being a man.

"Giving a woman respect is not giving up your manhood.  Its being a man."

I totally agree

Assalamu Alaikum

Antony95 wrote: OK, if I were to explain a phenomenon to you, would you perceive what I was explaining - at the level I hath explained it from? Or would you perceive it at your own level?

What you just say speaks volumes for how you think.  What it says to me is that if I do not agree with you, then, in your mind, I simply am not at your level of intelligence.  That is a very convenient way to avoid reality and/or to discount what others have to say.

Antony95 wrote: Khadija stated: It is clearly stated in the Hadith that women are allowed to pray in the mosque but not beside or in front of men. Why do you think that might be?

Because it may distract men from performing salat and is not appropriate for women with respect to protecting their modesty in front of non-mahram men.  As you know, in performing salat we much bend and prostrate within close proximity (shoulder to shoulder, toe to toe) to others.  If women are supposed to be modest in public by not showing their figure (Sura 24, Ayat 31) or to come into physical contract with non-mahram men, how it is possible for them to bend and prostrate in front of non-mahram men or to pray at their side?

Antony95 wrote: Khadija stated: Not because they less protected due to their cycles. Is it because they are not as intelligent then?

Of course not.  Please show me one Holy Qur�an ayat that indicates women are less intelligent than men.  If women were so lacking in intelligent, why did the Prophet (pbuh) allow �Aisha to help record the Holy Qur�an and to even give fatwa to the Ummah?  She played a major role in preserving the Holy Qur�an in its written form as well as guiding the Ummah.

Antony95 wrote: Khadija stated: That they know they are as justified in speaking out about issues in Islam as are men? Has a woman ever been granted Prophethood? Why?

No one has the same level of understanding or speaking on matters pertaining to Allah as do prophets, not even other men.  Just because men were chosen to be prophets is not an indication that Allah favors men over women or that women lack in intelligence or that they do not have as much rights as brothers to educate themselves regarding Islam.  There have been women scholars in the Ummah over the centuries and currently there are women scholars.  Women scholars in Egypt even give fatwa. 

Antony95 wrote: Khadija stated: I don�t want to compete with men. Why would I? Do men not excel women in spiritual wisdom? And hence is it not their duty to interpret the religion for their wives? (As a pose to their wives interpreting the religion to them)

If I were to say that men in general excel women in spiritual wisdom I would be lying.  Yes, some men have excelled women in spiritual wisdom (i.e., prophets), but in general, I cannot say that �men� excel �women� in this manner for reasons other than they have been given the social opportunity to do so.  When women are afforded the same they are able to excel in the area of spiritual wisdom.  This doesn�t mean that just any women can be a scholar, but neither can just any man.  It takes a tremendous amount of dedication, discipline and spiritual energy to truly be well educated in Islam, much less to be a scholar.  Allah gives knowledge and wisdom to whom He pleases. 

Who said it is my husband�s job to �interpret the religion� for me?  A husband�s job is spiritual leader of the family.  This doesn�t mean they �interpret the religion� for their families.  Nor does it mean that women have nothing to do with religion other than to be spoon fed by their husbands.  A woman has a fundamental job in shaping family life and helping bring up her children to be good Muslims.  She also has an impact on the community in doing so.  Women had given fatwa starting with the Prophet�s (pbuh) own wife.  Husbands who are of good Islamic faith will turn to the Holy Qur�an, Hadith and those scholars who have been proven to be truly blessed by Allah to help lead his family spiritually.  He will not simply give his own interpretation of the religion.  Can you for one second see how doing so may be part of what has lead to such a mess in the Ummah today?  Have you read Purdah?  It is an excellent example of how some men lead others astray by their own interpretation of Allah�s wisdom. 

Antony95 wrote: Khadija stated: If they weren�t putting out pink shirts for men to wear on the racks, men wouldn�t be buying them. The blind leading the blind.

The point is, don�t go blaming what men do on women.  It is not always the fault of women that men fail to obey Allah in this world.  Women in general are not the ignorant, lowly, evil-prone creatures you assume them to be.

Antony95 wrote: Khadija stated: Of course you cannot excel in the women�s arena, Allah made sure of that�.Alhamdulillah. And vice versa!

Well, what women can do and what they should do according to Islam are two different things.  Because the world has not been wise enough to acknowledge Allah and to follow His commands, the feminism we know of the western world was born and, because of it, women proved they can compete in the men�s arena.  On the other hand, men simply have not found a way to either give birth or to breastfeed.  So, in this regard, I will have to disagree with you.  Now if the world were to have been in line with Allah all along, then women and men would have their own arenas.  But even that doesn�t mean men and women are completely like apples and oranges.  They different in physical ways, hence giving rise to different duties in marriage, but in the spiritual arena, they are equals.  The following ayats show the equalities of men and women on this level.  (All quotes are translations of the Holy Qur�an by Yusuf Ali):

And in no wise covet those things in which Allah hath bestowed his gifts more freely on some of you than on others: to men is allotted what they earn and to women what they earn: but ask Allah of His bounty: for Allah hath full knowledge of all things. (Qur'an, 4:32)

If any do deeds of righteousness be they male or female and have faith they will enter heaven and not the least injustice will be done to them. (Qur'an, 4:124)

Know therefore that there is no god but Allah and ask forgiveness for the fault and for the men and women who believe: for Allah knows how ye move about and how ye dwell in your homes. (Qur'an, 47:19)

The believers, men and women, are protectors one of another: they enjoin what is just and forbid what is evil: they observe regular prayers practice regular charity and obey Allah and His apostle. On them will Allah pour His mercy: for Allah is Exalted in power Wise.  Allah hath promised to believers, men and women, gardens under which rivers flow to dwell therein and beautiful mansions in gardens of everlasting bliss. But the greatest bliss in the Good Pleasure of Allah: that is the supreme felicity. (Qur'an, 9:71-72)

And those who annoy believing men and women undeservedly bear (on themselves) a calumny and a glaring sin. (Qur'an, 33:58)

(With the result) that Allah has to punish the Hypocrites men and women and the Unbelievers men and women and Allah turns in Mercy to the Believers men and women: for Allah is Oft-Forgiving Most Merciful. (Qur'an, 33:73)

Whoever works righteousness man or woman and has faith verily to him will We give a new life a life that is good and pure and We will bestow on such their reward according to the best of their actions. (Qur'an, 16:97)

Women impure are for men impure and men impure are for women impure; and women of purity are for men of purity and men of purity are for women of purity: these are not affected by what people say: for them there is forgiveness and a provision honorable. (Qur'an, 24:26)

For those who give in Charity men and women and loan to Allah a Beautiful Loan it shall be increased manifold (to their credit) and they shall have (besides) a liberal reward. (Qur'an, 57:18)

Verily the Muslim men and Muslim women, and the believing men and the believing women, and the devout men and the devout women, and the men of veracity and the women of veracity, and the persevering men and the persevering women, and the men of humility and the women of humility and the almsgiving men and the almsgiving women, and the fasting men and the fasting women, and the men who guard their modesty and the women who guard their modesty, and the Allah-remembering men and the Allah remembering women: Allah hath gotten ready for them forgiveness and mighty hire. It is not fitting for a Believer man or woman when a matter has been decided by Allah and His Apostle to have any option about their decision: if anyone disobeys Allah and His Apostle he is indeed on a clearly wrong Path.  (Qur'an, 33:35-36)

One Day shalt thou see the believing men and the believing women how their Light runs forward before them and by their right hands: (their greeting will be): "Good News for you this Day! Gardens beneath which flow rivers! To dwell therein for aye! this is indeed the highest Achievement!" (Qur'an, 57:12)

He that works evil will not be requited but by the like thereof: and he that works a righteous deed whether man or woman and is a believer such will enter the Garden (of Bliss): therein will they have abundance without measure. (Qur'an, 40:40)

"O my Lord! Forgive me my parents all who enter my house in Faith and (all) believing men and believing women: and to the wrongdoers grant Thou no increase but in Perdition!" (Qur'an, 71:28)

Antony95 wrote: Khadija stated: It�s a shame that Muslimat have to fight for the rights they were given by Allah. Why is there not a man out there that cannot interpret the religion correctly?

The problem lies in cultural traditions and ignorance (those which cause men, and in some cases even women, to exceed the limits Allah has set for us).  In cultures where traditions which deviate from Allah�s Laws are held in a position higher than Allah�s Laws that culture will suffer from doing so.  No Muslimat should have to fight for her Islamic rights within an Islam community.  If the community in which she lives suffers for that, the blame is not to be on her.  On the other hand, if men try to set for themselves a throne in this world by placing themselves above women, then the Laws of Allah are exceeded as well and men who do that will have received their reward here on earth just as those who seek riches in this world do. 

Allah says that we are allowed to make jihad (I am not speaking of jihad of war here necessarily) against those who oppress us in our faith.  In fact, we are commanded to do so.  No MAN (or WOMAN) has the right to put his own traditions, wants, desires, beliefs and such (not even their ignorance) before Allah and His Laws.  Not even a husband has the right to do that to his wife and children. 

Antony95 wrote: Khadija stated: Why don�t men like women who have sharp minds? The want them to be educated yet dumb at that same time�why is that? Hath it been given to women to understand the religion (as well as men)? If so, why has there never been a woman Prophet!? It is women thinking they hath been bestowed with the same understanding of the religion as men, that I refer to when commenting on women competing.

I have already responded to the question about prophet hood.  You can use that as a means to unjustly believe that you and other men are able to �understand the religion� better than women if you like but remember, some day you will stand in front of Allah.  There is no where in the Qur�an or Hadiths that state this to be the case (i.e., that men understand the religion better than women).  You cannot use the fact that women have never been prophets to justify your calm.  Even though a hand full of men (pbut) have been blessed by Allah with Prophet Hood, doesn�t mean that men in general have a better understanding than women in matter of faith.  Just because men can lead prayer in mixed congregation (i.e., serve as Imam) doesn�t mean me are better at understand the religion than women are.  Just because men have been appointed spiritual leaders of the family doesn�t mean they have a better understanding of the religion than women do.  None of the reasons you give are valid and furthermore, there is nothing in the Holy Qur�an that would lead anyone to believe that women are not as capable as men at �understanding the religion.�  What you are saying is an insult.  What you are saying is that women do not have the same ability as men to strengthen their deen.   Simply marrying a good Muslim woman will give a man half his deen.  This is stated in both the Holy Qur�an and the Hadith.  If a good Muslim woman falls so short in your opinion, then how is it possible that having her for a wife provides her husband with half of his deen?

Let me give you a little lesson about Imams.  Although today the term �imam� is used as a way of expressing eminence for certain learned men inside Islam, there is nothing in the Qur�an which supported the purpose of anything more than this person being a person who leads prayers.  There is nothing in the Qur�an or Hadith which states an Iman is to be an employed leader of a congregation, a spokesman for the members of a congregation or an adviser in all questions that relate somehow to religion.  In fact, there is a great problem in the Ummah today which arises from those who treat Imams as if they somehow rightfully deserve the same respect as do Islamic scholars.  Is this not the result of the Ummah transgressing the Laws set for by Allah? 

Antony95 wrote: Hath you discussed these issues with your husband before posting them? Or are you acting as an independent woman?

I didn�t enter Islam as a married woman.  I am not currently married but Inshallah I will be in a little over a month.  I speak about all matters with my soon to be husband in Islam.  We have discussions about Islam on a daily basis.  I have faith that he will guide me and help me to deepen my deen; however, he doesn�t �interpret� Islam for me.  Rather, he guides me to that which can help me�ayats, hadiths, and scholars.  He knows and trusts that I will follow his advice and that if I have questions, I will seek his wisdom.  He is also wise enough to know that if he has no knowledge on what I ask of him, not to speak on that which he doesn�t know about.  He will simply tell me he doesn�t know and he will either offer to seek out that information for me or will point me in the direction where I might be able to find it on my own.  On the other hand, he also asks questions and listens to me in areas of understanding which I excel over him in knowledge.  He doesn�t treat me as an inferior being.  Nor is he afraid that I will try to compete with him or to take over �his arena.�  We are partners in marriage, not master and slave.

He is a man of very deep love for Allah and I am blessed by Allah to have him for my husband.  We both know what our Islamic duties are.  We also know that:

The believers, men and women, are protectors one of another: they enjoin what is just and forbid what is evil: they observe regular prayers practice regular charity and obey Allah and His apostle. On them will Allah pour His mercy: for Allah is Exalted in power Wise.  Allah hath promised to believers, men and women, gardens under which rivers flow to dwell therein and beautiful mansions in gardens of everlasting bliss. But the greatest bliss in the Good Pleasure of Allah: that is the supreme felicity. (Qur'an, 9:71-72)

And that if we succeed, we will be told:

Enter ye the Garden ye and your wives in (beauty and) rejoicing. (43:70)

Hence we study Islam together and discuss what we study as partners and equals in our spiritual life.  This doesn�t mean I take his position or that there is some type of competition between us.  Our duties, right and responsibilities as husband and wife in Islam are clear to us.  Don�t forget, even the Prophet (pbuh) helped around the house when he was home and allowed his wife to give fatwa to the public.  Does that mean he (pbuh) fail short of what Allah commanded of him?  No!

One thing my soon to be Inshallah husband said to me that I find very interesting is that men who are blind in this world to the injustices they do to women yet think themselves righteous will be shown the error of their ways on the day they must stand in front of Allah and that the number of men who will suffer the consequences along these lines will be amazingly high.

Allah Hafiz

Sister Khadija

Thank you Anthony for not being married and having children.  Because you lack the basic understanding of reality to deal with such an important duty.

Men and more spiritual than women????

That's why there's brothels, child rapists and spousal abuse.  Men are far better than women spiritually, they know whats best for us women. 

I could careless if I make more money than you, but I do object to the idea that a man who declares himself to be a good muslim would be so arrogant to think that he is spiritually superior. 

First off, it was MY return to church that got my husband to take his religion seriously.  It was my GRANDMOTHER that carried the faith of the family when my Grandfather turned his back on God.  It was her who drove all the children and later grandchildren to Church, prayed at dinner and set a good example of a loving mother, faithful woman of God and forgiving soul.  The MEN I know have more trouble with spiritual matters than the women in my live.

I'm sorry, but you sit here and insult Sister Khadija.  (I'm non muslim, you'll never listen to me)  But, sister Khadija studies daily, reads her Quran, books by scholars and ahadiths.  She has sources to back up her arguements. 

You on the other hand speak out of ignorance and total lack of education. 

Why were Prophet�s men????????

I could answer this with Deborah....

Also, the pinnacle of pious examples are often women.  Ruth, Elizabeth, Mary....

Prophet's are rare, Islam says there were 124,000 before Muhammed.....out of how many men on Earth? 

Just because someone rises above the rest of those around them, does not make the others greater than if they learned the lessons of the one who was raised up.

Muhammed, loved, cherished and respected his wives.  He cared for them and honored them.  He was gentle and kind to them and he taught them and helped them. 

The first martyr of Islam was a woman.  The first person to bring Christianity to Russia was a woman.  It was the women who stayed with Christ while the other apostles (men) fled.

A woman does not need the priesthood, they don't need to be prophets.  We carry our religion inside our hearts.  We know God inately and we can love him greater.  Why, because we carry life inside us, because we experience this miracle first hand.  Men can only watch from the sidelines. 

Of the few atheists I know, most are men and none of the female athiests I know are mothers. 

Perhaps this is why men are so quick to deny women their spirituality.  Pure envy that woman was given a closer link to God than they have.

Antony97 wrote: Angela stated: Thank you Anthony for not being married and having children. Because you lack the basic understanding of reality to deal with such an important duty. thank you, i am used to people trying to destroy me..... and all this is born out of the fact, you are unable to answer why all the Prophet's have been men!? what man would seriously wish to be in a place where women rule!?

Maybe its because I have a life and I work for a living????  Perhaps its because I have more important things to do than hit update on my browser 100 times a day???? 

Antony97 wrote:   feminist bitch!!!

Oooooh,  did I hit a nerve?????

Antony97 wrote: Surah 4 34. Men are the protectors and maintainers of women, because Allah has given the one more (strength) than the other, and because they support them from their means. Therefore the righteous women are devoutly obedient, and guard in (the husband's) absence what Allah would have them guard. As to those women on whose part ye fear disloyalty and ill-conduct, admonish them (first), (Next), refuse to share their beds, (And last) beat them (lightly); but if they return to obedience, seek not against them Means (of annoyance): For Allah is Most High, great (above you all). I am not violent, hence i am sooooo glad i am not responsible for you, because you would force me into the above actions! And if the man is not meant to have spiritual superiority, why is he advised to chastise his wife?

Well, you see that surah you posted is exactly why I don't believe in Islam.  Any religion that tells one participant to harm another is got problems.  And men like you prove this daily, prove why women are inately better people.  If men did not create the atmosphere of poverty and neglect, there would not be so many women who turn to prostitution to support themselves.  If men didn't twist feminism into a new form of oppression for women, there wouldn't be mini skirts and thongs.

Women don't wear high heels because they like them.  Men did that to us.  Women don't dress scantily for their own sakes.  Men have tricked them into thinking that its freedom.  Men have taken a quest for basic considerations like voting, fair pay for fair work and rights to children and property in divorce and they have twisted it into a war on Men.  Women were not AT WAR, until Men chose to move away from the issues of basic human rights and move torwards stripping away what makes a woman good.

Women demanded to be treated with respect, so men answered by making her quest for respect impossible.  Just like you. 

Its never even possible to you that a woman can be your equal.  You cannot fathom that a woman might be smarter than you, not because her sex is superior, just because as a human she's smarter.  You cannot fathom that a woman might be more pious than you, not because her sex is superior, but because the woman herself loves God more than the air she breaths.

A woman doesn't want to be SUPERIOR, women have fought against that attitude too long.  The ones that fall into that trap are buying into the lies told by radical liberals and men who dismiss feminism as the same as a sexual revolution.

A woman just wants to know that she's more than a possession and respected as such.  When a man "beats her lightly" he's putting her on the level of the family dog. 

Bismillah,

Antony, please apologize to Angela.  This is a discussion board.  Take the time you need to walk away from your computer to cool down and think rationally.  Do you want to make a life-changing decision based on one conversation you had in a discussion group with like no time in between for you to think about it?

Angela, I believe the Holy Quran was sent to the people of the Jahiliya for specific instruction, and some of those instructions are not applicable to today, hundreds of years later. ( Yeah, and I know some people are really angry with me because I am a Muslimah, but I am sorta different from them.)

I understand it to mean that BECAUSE a man is the sole support he may resort to lightly beating a child-like wife who has either stolen his property or been in an adulterous situation.  And that was during the times when a woman could be pommeled to death and not even be chastised by any system of law.  If she didn't have interested and involved family, she was at his mercy.

Prophet Muhammad's, pbuh, example, however, was that one time he was angry with his servant and he said that he would hit him with his tooth stick if he weren't afraid of punishment on the day of judgement.  So even back then, men were clearly guided never to hit their wife or servant and that also applies to children and dogs and cats et cetera.

There is absolutely no guidance then that a man should ever hit his wife.  We should be kind, loving and respectful to husbands, wives, children, aunts, et cetera.

herjihad wrote: There is absolutely no guidance then that a man should ever hit his wife.  We should be kind, loving and respectful to husbands, wives, children, aunts, et cetera.

You know I respect your opinions and value your wisdom in things. 

But you're trying to tell me that this Surah doesn't say its okay to beat your wife????

Surah 4

34. Men are the protectors and maintainers of women, because Allah has given the one more (strength) than the other, and because they support them from their means. Therefore the righteous women are devoutly obedient, and guard in (the husband's) absence what Allah would have them guard. As to those women on whose part ye fear disloyalty and ill-conduct, admonish them (first), (Next), refuse to share their beds, (And last) beat them (lightly); but if they return to obedience, seek not against them Means (of annoyance): For Allah is Most High, great (above you all).

Children hit because they aren't mature enough to deal with the situation. 

Bismillah,

Of course it says that.  Now, follow the line of reasoning I wrote above.  It is not allowed now, and at the time the Holy Prophet Muhammad, pbuh, was alive the people learned from him not to do it by copying his behavior and listening to his advice.

Alcohol was allowed at first also, and it was forbidden through time in stages.

Temporary marriages, which were common at the time, were allowed at first, and then for Sunni Muslims, disallowed.  I won't go into the argument between the sects about that.  Of course, I agree with the Sunni Muslim marriage system instead.

As Salamu Alaikum

Antony98 wrote: Why were all the Prophet�s men?

I am not sure what you are trying to prove by repeating this question.

Don't you know that the Prophet (Sallallahu 'Alayhi wa Sallam) said that none is superior over another except in TAQWA (PIETY.) No one can answer this question correctly except that Allah Subhanahu wa Ta'ala in HIS WISDOM chose men only. I guess you have to wait for the Day of Judgment to get an answer for this question.

I also suggest that you apologize to Angela for using such foul language, no Muslim who really fears Allah will use such foul language. You should repent as well.

As Salamu Alaikum

I am also confused by the statement regarding this Ayah no 34 in Surah an-Nisa', that it is not applicable today. Subhanallah, can you prove it from the Glorious Qur'an or Sunnah that this ayah does not apply today?

Regarding Alcohol and the Mut'ah marriage, we have clear evidence from the Glorious Qur'an and Sunnah that these are forbidden to us.

I agree that there are many Ahadith were the Prophet (Sallallahu 'Alayhi wa Sallam) instructs men to be kind to their wives, they should not abuse them, etc but these Ahadith do not mean that this Ayah does not apply today.

Just as there are many Ahadith warning men about their duty towards and their treatment of women, we also have Ahadith warning woman about their duties and relationships with their husbands.

However, this Ayah Surah An-Nisa 4: 34 does not give men to right to abuse their wives and treat them like slaves. Those men, who use the meaning of this Ayah to do so, are transgressing Allah's limits and will be punished severely.

I searched and searched today to find any evidence that this Ayah was later abrogated but could not find anything.

Insha Allah maybe someone can show me evidence from the Glorious Qur'an and Sunnah that this Ayat does not apply anymore as I don't agree with this line of reasoning.

Wa Alaikum Salam

Bismillah,

Al-Wardah, Sister, it's okay, perfectly okay, with me if you don't agree with my line of reasoning or me.  I can live with that!

I stated what I believe and why.  That's all.  I understand that some people never accept the hadith as abrogating the Holy Quran.  That's up to you.  But the hadith I mentioned clearly does that.  Well, I suppose many people would say that it makes it makruh, doubtful, behavior instead of haram.  I personally only accept hadith which make sense in the scheme of God's Mercy to us.  If something denies that Mercy, it can't be true, in my humble opinion.

And I believe that there are specific things in the Holy Quran directed to the people of the Jahiliya and the new Muslims that were meant only for them.  Now, it's not necessary to jump on this, because we all know that almost nobody on this board agrees with me. 

And it would be really mean to quote anything about people who believe like me going to hell.  I was a non-Muslim, and now I am a Muslimah.  I raised my kids as Muslims.  Allahu Akbar.

herjihad wrote: I believe the Holy Quran was sent to the people of the Jahiliya for specific instruction, and some of those instructions are not applicable to today, hundreds of years later. ( Yeah, and I know some people are really angry with me because I am a Muslimah, but I am sorta different from them.)

The Holy Quran has been sent down as a mercy and blessing to entire mankind.

No section from this book was sent for a section of people for any limited period.

The believers are required to believe in the entire book. Every commandment is applicable to all who belive, every obligation is to be followed, every prohibition is to be avoided, making exception to nothing.

In the former times, there were some from the people of the book who believed in portions of their holy book, rejecting other parts from it, saying it no longer applies on them. There are reproaches to them in very strong words appearing in the Quran. Those reproaches are not just for the jews, but are warnings for muslims  of today as well to beware of following on their footsteps.

2:27. Those who break Allah.s Covenant after it is ratified, and who sunder what Allah Has ordered to be joined, and do mischief on earth: These cause loss (only) to themselves.

2:78. And there are among them illiterates, who know not the Book, but (see therein their own) desires, and they do nothing but conjecture.

2:99. We have sent down to thee Manifest Signs (ayat); and none reject them but those who are perverse. 100. Is it not (the case) that every time they make a covenant, some party among them throw it aside?- Nay, Most of them are faithless.

121. Those to whom We have sent the Book study it as it should be studied: They are the ones that believe therein: Those who reject faith therein,- the loss is their own.

Bismillah,

Antony, no that's not polite either.  It's not smart either.  Use bigger words to impress people, not smaller ones.

That's not an acceptable thing to say to a Christian woman!  Do you want to try again?

Nausheen, when you call a believer a non-believer, you put yourself in peril with Allah, SWT.  That's one of the big sins, you know.  Why is that?  It could be because it could cause dissension and hatred in the Ummah.  I wonder why they massacered the Holy Prophet Muhammad's, pbuh, nephew?  What possible justification could they have given themselves for the slaughter of their fellow Muslims?  Oh, I know.  Maybe they said, they're not really Muslims for whatever reason they had in their heads at the time.

Now, Antony, I am a Muslimah and a muslim mother as well.  I get angry with people also.  Driving cars in my area is really frustrating.  And sometimes I am a lot more patient with people than others.  But I am suggesting that you try to take deep breaths when people make you angry.  Go and do something else if you can.  Engage in something else to get your mind off the thing that's bothering you, and then take it up later.

Calling names is very limiting and doesn't usually help anybody.  Why don't you read a book about anger management from the library?  And by the way, when I read your statement, it distracted me from the anger I felt at someone elses.  And now I can let that go.  Subhana Allahul'Atheem!

Well, I'm not a witch.  I haven't been for a number of years now.  I have friends who are witches.  Dispite being Pagan, they are actually very nice and very kind.

Anyway, name calling just proves that you're on the emotional level of an eight year old. 

The Prophets were men.  But then there is Deborah who was a Prophetess.  The Prophets were also Jews....Muhammed was not???  The Prophets also committed many miracles.  Healed the Sick, raised the dead, parted the Red Sea. 

The Prophets power was not their own.  Moses spoke through Aaron.  David was a boy when he slew Goliath.  The Prophets themselves were not superiour, their superiority ONLY came through God.  It is God who is superior.  Not Men.  Men are weak, emotional and animalistic.  Only God makes men and women anything more than this.  Only God makes us Great.

God granted me a keen intellect and blessed me with the ability to do complicated accounting tasks in my head.  I'm sure he would not have given me these abilities if I was not to use them.  So, if a MAN wants my job, he should prove he can do it better.  I certainly had to prove I could do it better than the other candidates that applied with me.

As Salamu Alaikum

And it would be really mean to quote anything about people who believe like me going to hell.  I was a non-Muslim, and now I am a Muslimah.  I raised my kids as Muslims.  Allahu Akbar.

This statement proves that you doubt your own understanding. Why call it mean when someone quotes from the Glorious Qur'an, Sunnah or Fatawa? These are not our words, but the Words of Allah, His Prophet (Sallallahu 'Alayhi wa Sallam) and Renowned Scholars. You should take it as a warning not meanness. Only a concerned person will take the time correct another.

Nausheen, when you call a believer a non-believer, you put yourself in peril with Allah, SWT.

Where does she call you a non-believer, she also only quoted Ayat from the Glorious Qur'an.

You are correct, we are entitled to our own opinion and we can chose to follow the teachings the way we like, it's a personal choice. If you feel that by quoting from the Authentic sources that I ever implied you are going to hell, then that is your misinterpretation again. I will never call a Muslim � a disbeliever just because we disagree. For all I know, that person maybe a better Muslim then I will ever hope to be. Allah Subhanahu wa Ta'ala knows the intention of each and every one of us and HE IS THE FINAL JUDGE.

You stated an opinion I asked for proof. I don't find any Hadith where the Prophet (Sallallahu 'Alayhi wa Sallam) said: "to day I forbid you from beating your wives." Not even a weak Hadith.

Do you honestly believe that today's wives are very obedient to their husbands and thus this Ayat does not apply today? I would say that this Ayat applies more today then it did during the early days of Islam. This Ayat is only a guide line on how to correct one's wife; it does not give men the authority to abuse their wives.

I personally only accept hadith which make sense in the scheme of God's Mercy to us.  If something denies that Mercy, it can't be true, in my humble opinion.

That means you deny/reject any Ayat or Hadith that does not fit in this category.

Then you believe in part of the Book and not the rest (Surah Al-Baqarah 2:85)

You believe that Allah Subhanahu wa Ta'ala is the Most Merciful and don't believe " Allah is strict in punishment," (Surah al-Ma'idah 5:2)

I think sis Angela would be devastated if she accepted Islam on the assumption that this Ayah does not apply today and later found that it applies today as it did 1400 years ago; just as I was devastated when I found the true religion from the one which I believed with conviction was the "truth".

I pray to Allah Subhanahu wa Ta'ala the Lord of the Heavens and Earth to guide us all to the truth and keep our feet firm on HIS STRAIGHT PATH. Ameen!

Wa Alaikum Salam

Bismillah,

Hmm.  The most important point you raise is about Sister Angela accepting Islaam or not.  Allah, SWT, decides who will and who won't accept Islaam and why they do it.  It is not up to you or me.  I'm just glad to know her.  I don't believe non-Muslims go to hell because they are not "Muslims" in the traditional sense.  And darling, I have NO quotes for you.  I just have the feeling that all believers will go to heaven, regardless of the details. 

Now, I have spent at least hundreds of hours reading the Holy Quran and studying books of Hadiths over the years.  I learned Arabic, written and spoken, although newspapers and the news are above my level still. 

 And I know when someone is telling me by quoting a passage that they think I'm going to hell.  I could say it's your problem or their problem, but I told you honestly it hurts me that you guys act this way.  If you have deluded yourself into thinking the sky is black when it is blue, how can I point out anything different to you?  And that's a you in general, plural.  You all.

I accept the whole Holy Quran and interpret it the way that makes sense.  That is through our Beloved Lord's Mercy.  Because when Allah, SWT, created the world he promised that his Mercy EXCEEDS His wrath.  And I don't think it's a 49/51 split either.  There are evil forces in the world, and I believe that Allah, SWT, will dispose of those in hell.  The good forces may be purged in hellfire, but I prefer to look at the positive and not be filled with fear, guilt or worry.  Well, I try.

Women are wonderful, beautiful whether we are fat, old, supposedly ugly or skinny beyond imagining.  No, we never should be hit, ever.  I am firm and clear on that. Never, ever hit a child, a woman, an animal or another car for that matter!   And I really think you guys should stop beating each other up also.

The Holy Prophet, Muhammad, pbuh's example is to not hit someone weaker than you ever.  Why do you have trouble understanding that?  Maybe you don't ever follow hadith, and then I can understand your confusion.  That's up to you.

Oh, by the way, don't try to get into my head.  When you say that "this proves you doubt your own understanding", you are just wrong.  I don't.  I am fully confident and stand strong in my faith in our Merciful Lord.  Why don't y'all stop trying to make a square peg fit into a round hole?  I have a lot of things to contribute.  Take them freely.  You are most welcome.

Y'all have a peaceful December 24th.

I do not fear Hell.  I am a good person and I love and believe in God, Heavenly Father, with ALL my heart.  Even the Quran gives comfort to the Jews and Christians and your Prophet even took a Christian wife.

I am a faithful wife and perhaps someday through adoption or God's grace, I hope to be a mother. 

Anthony's opinion matters about as much as a grain of sand on a beach.  Its God that matters to me, its honoring him that makes me happy.

BUT, My submission is to God, not mortal man.  No man is greater than the next and no man is greater than a woman.  To express this, I'm going to share and article from Prophet Gordon B Hinckley of the Church of Jesus Christ of the Latter-Day Saints, or Mormons.  Which I am a faithful member.  Do not take offense to me posting from our Prophet, but understand I do this so you can see why I have a hard time accepting that woman are somehow inferior. 

I'll post the article in a different message so that it stands by itself.

Angela wrote: I do not fear Hell.  I am a good person and I love and believe in God, Heavenly Father, with ALL my heart.

Sister,the high level believed persons do not fear from hell,as you say they fear of loosing the love from Allah then they why care His rules;their hell is loosing the love of Allah on them.In quran the word of loosing love of Allah priorly passes more than the hell;the good acts more comes from the persons who scares of loosing the love of Allah than the persons scares from Hell...i believe u fit in to this rule and a good future is waiting you as now u succeeded so much on;if THEY LEAVE YOU WITH THEIR POLARIZATIONS AND AGITATIONS...no doubt....

Auzubillahi minash shaitan ir rajeem,

Bismillah ir rahman ir rahim,

herjihad wrote: Nausheen, when you call a believer a non-believer, you put yourself in peril with Allah, SWT.  That's one of the big sins, you know.

The non-belivers are those who have rejected faith totally.Those who call themselves muslims but fullfil their covanants only in portions have not become non-believers - they run the risk of falling into some other category.

Had you read my post carefully, you would not have jumped to victimise yourself, instead tarried to re- evaluate your presumptions about the Quran.

Those who pick and choose to follow only portions of their deen, ignoring or rejecting other parts are either misguided, in gross error, or they do not invest total trust in their religion.

Allah says in the Quran:

2:208 O ye who believe! Enter into Islam whole-heartedly; and follow not the footsteps of the evil one; for he is to you an avowed enemy.

4:59. O ye who believe! Obey Allah, and obey the Messenger, and those charged with authority among you. If ye differ in anything among yourselves, refer it to Allah and His Messenger, if ye do believe in Allah and the Last Day: That is best, and most suitable for final determination.

Auzubillahi minash shaitan ir rajeem,

Bismillah ir rahman ir rahim,

herjihad wrote: I accept the whole Holy Quran and interpret it the way that makes sense.

You interpret the Holy Quran the way it makes sense to you ?  What makes sense to us is not always correct, because we are not fool proof. - what if such is the case about your interpretations?

 a very audacious and dangerous methodology of interpreting the holy Quran!

People can choose to believe whatever they want and however they want because life of this world is play and amusement. But His religion is not play and amusement. Religion is not just that which suits us, it is that which is the will of Allah.

Bismillah,

I don't have self-doubt about my beliefs in Allah, SWT's, infinite Mercy and Grace.  Those who pick and choose to ignore Allah, SWT's mercy and follow the mean rulings of people who came before them, choose this for themselves, not for me.

Faith is a gift from Allah, SWT, to any He chooses.  The madhabs are what people have made of His religion and are filled with errors which have led to the destruction of the Ummah.  Unity, Love and Mercy are all Qualities of our Dear Lord.  We need to follow those principles.  We need to actually feel for other Muslims and other people of this world as if we were one body.  Ouch MY arm hurts et cetera, when someone else is in pain.

Most importantly, I need you to stop saying that I have self doubt and who am I to think the way I do.  Our Powerful Lord created me!  That's who I am!  Faith is what suits me and all Believers in Allah, SWT.  Faith is the thing we need and what we lack.  There is plenty of religion to go around.

Through faith we all would treat each other kindly knowing that Allah, SWT, loves us all. Men wouldn't have made rules to throw women in the house and leave her there not to be seen, heard, or contemplated.  Throughout the years men have sought to silence thoughtful women, and women who join the men in this should be more ashamed.  I will believe what the Eternal Lord has led me to believe, and that is faith through Islaam. 

I would never make anything up to play with in my faith.  I would never follow something just because I "found my fathers" following it.  Faith is serious and beautiful.  May Allah, SWT's Mercy and Compassion guide us all in everything we do.

As Salamu Alaikum

The most important point you raise is about Sister Angela accepting Islaam or not.  Allah, SWT, decides who will and who won't accept Islaam and why they do it.  It is not up to you or me.

You are absolutely correct I agree with you 100%, but I was not referring to her actual acceptance of Islam. I only mentioned Sis Angela since this Ayat in Surah An-Nisa was one of the reasons why she was holding back from accepting Islam, to explain a point which you failed to understand or chose to ignore. Allah knows best. Although I do not know her, I do respect her as well.

I just have the feeling that all believers will go to heaven, regardless of the details. 

Yes Alhamdulillah eventually.

I have NO quotes for you

I wish you had, maybe it would have help clear up some of my misunderstanding.

Alhamdulillah you know Arabic so you to not have to rely upon translations of the Glorious Qur'an or Hadith by others. Despite this you say

I don't believe non-Muslims go to hell because they are not "Muslims" in the traditional sense. 

What traditional sense? If you truly believe this then sister you are denying or rejecting or misinterpreting a very good portion of both the Glorious Qur'an and Sunnah. Subhanallah!

Why don't y'all stop trying to make a square peg fit into a round hole? 

Are we? Never realized that.

I have a lot of things to contribute.

So do I. But you take it as a personal attack. You understand Islam differently, I understand it differently. When I (or anyone else) quote an ayah etc you take it personally, I don't know why. All I am doing is stating a different point of view, using the Qur'an and Sunnah to make a point. If you are 100% sure about your point of view, I am also 100% sure of my point of view. Why can't you understand that as well? Can't we agree to disagree without letting the issue get personal?

Sister for a long time I was misled to believe that there were many Ayat and Hadith that don't apply to us today. I was very happy because I was following Islam the way I wanted. But I was devastated when I realized that I was misled by what I call "Modern" scholars and sisters who followed "Modern" Islam. After many years of studying, I realized that there is only One Islam - the way Allah Subhanahu wa Ta'ala and His Messenger (Sallallahu 'Alayhi wa Sallam) ordered us to follow. Doubts disappeared and it became easy to apply the teachings but at the same time there were sacrifices to be made. How each and every one of us follows the teachings is an INDIVIDUAL CHOICE and the FINAL JUDGE IS ALLAH SUBHANAHU WA TA'ALA.

I have nothing more to add except that this is a discussion board, so if I am sure what is said contradicts what I know to be otherwise from the Glorious Qur'an and Sunnah, then I will most definitely mention it. If any one takes it personally, there is absolutely nothing I can do about that.

May Allah Subhanahu wa Ta'ala grant all Muslims and their families the best in this world and the next Ameen!

Wa Alaikum Salam

Es_Selam'un Aleykum ve Rahmetullahi ve Berakatuh,

We are all coming from the different structures inside the Islam World,one is more knowledged and the other is less,but the issue should be giving hands to  each other politely for meeting on the same points...everybody can make mistakes or may know wrong,as we all made in the past also still we include...improving each others step by step is our mission instead of telling the truth in a short way with an pushing out...

There is a good sentence i heard from an good scholar of Islam whom i had found the chance of meeting with him;he said:"please do not want from everybody for being an locomotive of the train,the train also needs wagons to carry the people;our destiny is Allah we are moving to Him day by day inside this train...",as we can see from the example that there is no perfect person in this world, we all need to balance each other,one will be locomotive and the others will be the wagons and i scare that accusing each other can make the train off from the rails,i have a key word for the persons who knows that they are perfect and thinks that the others are feeding from the wrong sources or accuses they are wrong believing with an assumption with any of a proof:if you arrive to the destiny with only being an locomotive then They will may have faced to the door to being shutted down on their faces by the cause of carrying any of an wagon;because Allah made you the locomotives to carry up; not only carrying yourselves...u have some responsibilities on the others...if one believes wrong then u should correct in an polite way rather than pushing out;of course u don't but short explanations causes polarization....

I don't know so much about Sister Herjihad and Sister Alwardah;i respect all of them...please reflect the sisterhood of Islam proving that we are the real ummah...if one fallen down on the way of jannah please turn back to moving her up...i believe that Sister Herjihad is an well sister in Islam and i believe she is capable of understanding the truth if being told in an mouth fits to the last prophet used...

Herjihad has some superior sides and also you;Also Angela has so much...if you mix the energy between each other i believe that this will be the fastest train in this world...

As Salamu Alaikum

Okay brother Suleyman I get your point. Don't come straight to the point, because it hurts, rather beat around the bush.

There are only two points I want to clear.

Firstly I am not superior to anyone in any aspect. Everyday for me is a learning experience, the more I learn the more I realize the less I really know.

Secondly I was never impolite to anyone.

Sori there is a one last  point Insha Allah from today I will keep my mouth shut, to prevent any more ill-feeling in the forum, I pray my conscience will be able to live with that. Or maybe I should just leave this forum. What one does not know will not hurt?

I want all the sisters in this forum to know that I don't have any ill-feelings towards anyone, differences in opinion, but no ill-feeling. I Love You All for Allah's Sake and His Sake Alone and desire for every one Jannatul-Firdaus which I desire for myself and Insha Allah, Allah will keep us on the Path to Achieve that Goal. Ameen! 

Wa Alaikum Salam

Assalamu alaikum,

Please don't leave, Sister Alwardah.  Everyone's voice is valid.  Your posts are always well thought out and backed with good Islamic knowledge and proofs.  Your input is a valuable contribution to this forum.

We all need to exert an effort in balancing our opinions with solid evidences from Qur'an and Sunnah.  We all need to exert an effort in listening to the opinions and ideas of each other.  Most of all, we all need to exert an effort in understanding that we are all on a journey to Allah, and like any journey, there can be many bumps in the road and alternative paths ending in the same goal.

May Allah reward you, Sister Alwardah, for the good efforts you put into this forum.  And may Allah reward you and the rest of us as we struggle on our journey to Him.

Peace, ummziba.

Es_Selam'un Aleykum ve Rahmetullahi ve berakatuh Sister Alwardah,

Sister the issue of my message was not just written on you,it was all including general key points should be considered by all of us...

Coming to you decision,i don't agree with you,you should stay in the board for carrying the others,if you do not you will really hurt us...please....

Sister Alwardah,

Please do not leave.  I definitely value your opinion even if it is counter to mine. 

The problem I see with determining things in Islam is that anyone who CAN sound wise and knowledgeable can set themselves up as an Islamic scholar, write a few books, maybe get declared an Imam through some process I have yet to figure out and start issuing interpretations and fatwas.

But, there is no priesthood to maintain order and normalize interpretations.  Literally you might get one answer from one Imam and another from other.

For example.  I am married and earlier this year toyed with the idea of taking Shahada.  I found many similarities to my own beliefs, but some glaring differences.  But, I was told, that if my husband did not accept Islam I would have to leave him.  So, I consulted two Imams by email.  The first said absolutely I would have to leave him and there was no alternative.  The second told me my marriage would be invalid after three months and that I would have to make special prayers for forgiveness if I chose to stay with my husband.  He told me to gently continue to call my husband to Islam and make my prayers.  That I would be blessed for leaving him, but that I could "chose" to stay with him as long as I understood that I was committing zina every time I slept with him. 

Now which one is correct?  The one who told me to leave or the one who told me that I could stay and try to help bring my husband to Islam as well???  The second warned me of the consequences but recognized the circumstances. 

So, Sister Herjihad interprets the Quran so it makes sense to her.  I'm sure she could find clerics and scholars that agree or disagree to her interpretations.  Islam to me is not a pure religion, because it is not a religion with one unified voice.  When believers start pointing out the faults in others in any religion, they forget to look at their own faults.  Pride and Prejudice is not just a book, its a great failing of mankind. 

If you think yourself worthy,  you probably aren't.

As Salamu Alaikum

Jazakallahu Khairan Sisters Ummziba and Angela, for your kind words. I always believed that one can gain more knowledge through discussions than reading volumes and volumes by oneself. I think most people will agree.

Brother Suleyman, I know that your response was not directed at me but it was your response that made me stop and reflect. We are not discussing any ordinary history or science book. These are the words of Allah Subhanahu wa Ta'ala and His Messenger (Sallallahu 'Alayhi wa Sallam). And because I cannot beat around the bush, don't know how, I decided it would be best to leave the forum. No doubt, you stepped in at the right time Jazakallahu Khairan.

Sister Herijhad, I pray you have it in your heart to forgive me if I caused you any hurt or grief. As Allah Subhanahu wa Ta'ala is my Witness, that was not the intention. All I wanted to do was correct the misconceptions which I most sincerely believe you have; using the Glorious Qur'an and Sunnah to prove it. Sister although you know Arabic and I still rely heavily upon translations of others, I honestly and most sincerely believe I was not wrong trying to correct your misunderstanding. "There is no compulsion in religion", it is an individual choice. I know we have started on some wrong footing, I pray we can let bygones be bygones and start all over again as sisters in deen wishing good for each other.

When we accept/revert to Islam Allah Subhanahu wa Ta'ala the Most Merciful, forgives us all our previous sins, and out for His Compassion HE still rewards us for the good deeds we did during the time we were non-Muslim. Then we accept Islam and start sinning all over again. Auzo Billahe Minash-Shaitanir-Rajim. I regard hurting someone's feeling a sin without doubt, even though it was done unintentionally.

I mentioned once before in another thread, that sometimes in our eagerness to do good, we end up doing more harm.  Fitnah is what I want to avoid at all cost.

I have decided I will not leave the forum, but will refrain from getting into any controversial issues. I will leave the response to such issues to those members who have more knowledge, experience and tact to respond to those issues.

Jazakallahu Khairan to everyone, who made me realize that I was foolish to even consider leaving the forum.

May Allah Subhanahu wa Ta'ala grant Unity to Our Ummah and make us succeed in both this world and the hereafter Ameen!

Wa Alaikum Salam