The Moon
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Category: Religion - Islam
Forum Name: Interfaith Dialogue
Forum Description: It is for Interfaith dialogue, where Muslims discuss with non-Muslims. We encourge that dialogue takes place in a cordial atmosphere on various topics including religious tolerance.
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Topic: The Moon
Posted By: Abu Loren
Subject: The Moon
Date Posted: 10 June 2014 at 12:11pm
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Asalaamu Alaikum I currently live in Sharjah, UAE. About a week ago, I was sitting on the beach with a friend and we arrived at around 10pm and left around midnight. Sometime in between this time my friend suddenly said "hey I wonder why there are only a few stars visible here". I said "Yea man really strange as if we go anywhere else in the world the sky would be littered with stars, like the sands on the sea shore". Then towards the end he said "did you notice the moon how it was overhead when we got here and how it's disappearing over the horizon. How is that possible within two hours?" Then just three days later we were at the same beach and the moon this time hardly moved at all within the same time period. Can any scientific types here please explain this phenomenon? |
Replies:
Posted By: airmano
Date Posted: 10 June 2014 at 1:39pm
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I'm rather surprised that you are seeking for a scientific explanation, it's not in your usual style ! To the point: Motions of celestial bodies in our solar systems can be calculated quite precisely over long periods of time: http:///farside.ph.utexas.edu/teaching/336k/Newtonhtml/node133.html - http:///farside.ph.utexas.edu/teaching/336k/Newtonhtml/node133.html . I would even dare to say that it was the real starting point of mathematical physics thanks to good old Isac Newton (puh!). An unpredicted change in speed (of the moon) has never been measured so I would start with the assumption that the moons orbit (speed) is not the true cause of your observation (I have also many reasons based on physics to assume so). However, you insinuate that the moon may have moved at different speeds at the two respective evenings, so I have to defend my theory. There are many possible cases that could explain your observation in line with my assumption: Your wrist watches went wrong, you didn't read them of correctly - or even not at all, the moon was at a different elevations and so on. Harder proof for my theory comes from outside however: If the moon had changed it's course all of a sudden: - Thousands of (hobby) astronomers would have noticed. - Tidal waves would have been out of phase, thus http://www.wyretidalenergy.com/tidal-barrage/la-rance-barrage - tidal power stations would not have worked correctly anymore. - Even GPS systems would have been subject to errors due to the (wrong) relativistic corrections of the gravitational effects caused by the moon. - Personally I work at an electron accelerator facility, where tidal effects coming from the moon have to be compensated for - what would have gone seriously wrong in this case. I could make this list much longer but the real point here is, that all these changes (coming from the variation in the moons orbit) would have been detected synchronously. In case of a single isolated event you can still argue about similar explanations as the one I gave you at the beginning (like the clock), but that all measurements/observations coming from simultaneous uncorrelated observations worldwide would not have detected this change is something I'd call inconceivable or "hard evidence" (you understand my little allusion towards the Quran here, do you ?) Since there has been no change in the moons cycle recently and detected by the methods I just mentioned, I'm sure that something "went wrong" at your place - on the beach- and not in the orbit of the moon. Airmano |
Posted By: Ron Webb
Date Posted: 10 June 2014 at 3:47pm
I'm not sure what you're asking. If you're not seeing many stars, it's probably due to clouds or mist or air pollution or light pollution or a dozen other things. But trust me, the stars are still there.  You can see a map of the stars for any location (including Sharjah) and any date/time, past or future, at http://www.skymaponline.net/ - http://www.skymaponline.net/ .As for the moon, the rise and set times for your location can be found at http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/astronomy.html?n=1482&month=6&year=2014&obj=moon&afl=-11&day=1 - www.timeanddate.com . If you have any doubt that these numbers are accurate, you're welcome to check them. And the moon moves approximately 30 degrees per hour, day or night, winter or summer, regardless of your location. Again, you can measure that yourself if you want. ------------- Addeenul �Aql � Religion is intellect. |
Posted By: Ron Webb
Date Posted: 10 June 2014 at 4:59pm
Actually, I can do a bit better than my earlier post.
It is sometimes reported as an http://www.google.ca/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0CBwQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fen.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2FMoon_illusion&ei=o5uXU4f9H4eG8gGGloDgBQ&usg=AFQjCNGHFFNzzFKyEYv_qSJpEsyrT_uJ6g&sig2=CnVRQHHk8hz0vDjjX0kxyQ&bvm=bv.68693194,d.b2U - optical illusion that objects in the sky appear to bigger when they are near the horizon than when they are directly overhead. (It's not something I notice myself, but it seems to be true for many people.) I suppose that the same would apply to distances, i.e., when the moon is near the horizon it would appear to move farther than when it is overhead. You didn't give exact dates, but let's assume the two observations were on June 6 and June 9, between 10:00 p.m. and midnight. On the evening of June 6 the moon set at 12:26 a.m. (technically the following morning), so at midnight you would have observed it near the horizon. Also, without doing the math (I am terrible at spherical trigonometry), I'd guess you first saw it at about 40 degrees altitude, and it moved roughly diagonally down toward the horizon. On June 9, the moon would never have been near the horizon, so the distance it moved would have appeared smaller. Also, it would have been moving more horizontally, and I'm guessing you would be less likely to notice a change in horizontal direction than in vertical height. Put those two factors together, and it's not too surprising that it would seem to be moving more slowly. ------------- Addeenul �Aql � Religion is intellect. |
Abu Loren wrote:Posted By: Abu Loren
Date Posted: 11 June 2014 at 4:05am
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I'm sorry but call me a simpleton but I didn't understand a single word of that.Can you re-word in simple layman's term. All I know is that one night the moon raced away so quickly and another it was taking it's time. |
Posted By: Ron Webb
Date Posted: 11 June 2014 at 4:42am
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I'm saying that the moon was moving at roughly the same speed on both days. It may have seemed faster on June 6 because (1) it was closer to the horizon and (2) it was moving more vertically rather than horizontally. ------------- Addeenul �Aql � Religion is intellect. |
Posted By: airmano
Date Posted: 11 June 2014 at 6:03am
Ron Webb
That is exactly what I wanted to express by:
BTW: Did you understand the explanation I have given? Airmano |
Posted By: Abu Loren
Date Posted: 11 June 2014 at 12:05pm
| No because we were at the same location on both nights at roughly at the same time but the moon was at different locations. |
Posted By: Ron Webb
Date Posted: 11 June 2014 at 3:49pm
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Of course it was at different locations. The moon's position changes every day, relative to the sun. That's why the rise and set times also change every day, as the table at http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/astronomy.html?n=1482&month=6&year=2014&obj=moon&afl=-11&day=1 - www.timeanddate.com shows. It's also why the moon has phases. ------------- Addeenul �Aql � Religion is intellect. |
Posted By: schmikbob
Date Posted: 11 June 2014 at 5:47pm
| Any number of possible explanations spring to mind. Most of them have to do with observational error. |
Posted By: Abu Loren
Date Posted: 12 June 2014 at 3:08am
I don't buy that. There were two people who saw the same thing. One day the moon disappeared within two hours and then it hardly moved at all. |
Posted By: schmikbob
Date Posted: 12 June 2014 at 6:51am
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Try this then. In order for the laws of physics to not apply to you and a fried sitting on the beach, I'd say you would have to provide some extraordinary evidence. For example, if you and a friend were engineers that went to the beach with observational equipment, made some time stamped observations, sent them to some qualified experts, like astronomers, that verified them with calibrated equipment, then you would have something worth checking out further.
However, what you have now is two guys with unknown credentials that, at some point in time and space say "hey, this is what I notice" and another guy saying "wow, weird". Then one of them posts their "weird" experience in a blog and asks for comment. Not exactly hard data. |
Posted By: Abu Loren
Date Posted: 12 June 2014 at 11:55am
LOL I don't care what you scientific types say, it was certainly a weird experience. Even you can't explain it. |
Posted By: Ron Webb
Date Posted: 12 June 2014 at 5:05pm
I'm not even sure what you think needs explaining. I've already told you that this is a common optical illusion -- two of them combined, actually. Beyond that, you offer us a vague report of the moon moving much faster on one day than another, but you can't even tell me which days, let alone quantify how much faster. What do you expect in response? Are you seriously suggesting that the moon's motion was erratic in some way? And that all the astronomers whose job it is to study the moon and track its orbit, somehow missed it? And, having gone wildly awry, it somehow managed to return to its proper position and exactly resume its usual schedule? ------------- Addeenul �Aql � Religion is intellect. |
Posted By: schmikbob
Date Posted: 12 June 2014 at 5:38pm
| It's another miracle, witnessed by two people on the beach and nobody else on the planet. |
Posted By: Ron Webb
Date Posted: 12 June 2014 at 6:06pm
That's twice as many as witnessed the revelation of the Quran. ------------- Addeenul �Aql � Religion is intellect. |
Posted By: Abu Loren
Date Posted: 13 June 2014 at 3:33am
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Ok if it makes you guys happy. IT DIDN'T HAPPEN! |
Posted By: schmikbob
Date Posted: 13 June 2014 at 3:46pm
| Abu Loren, I have hope for you yet. |
Posted By: airmano
Date Posted: 14 June 2014 at 3:14am
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In the end I think that this example is very interesting.
Abu Loren insists that he has "really seen" it, whereas the others (me included) doubt that the observation which he certainly made contains any "physical truth" in the sense that the moon really changed it's speed. The reason why I think that this example is relevant is because it illustrates the (frequent) divergence between what we feel and think and the measurable "objective" world. Besides the laws of physics one of my strongest arguments against his interpretation is (please see the second post at the beginning of this thread) that nobody else in the world has observed it (at least nobody reporting to it to any newspaper for example). It means probably millions of independent observation in conflict with one (or two) local observations. In addition there have been measuring devices all over the world which didn't detect anything either. I don't doubt that you (Abu Loren) really "felt" it the way you describe, but there is (I repeat myself) very strong outer evidence that [the interpretation of]your observation is flawed. May be this can serve as an example that what we feel (as strong as the feeling may be) is not necessarily correct. Independent (multiple) observation, confirmation and measurements (preferably intercultural) from outside are likely to bring you closer to the "truth". Up to you to draw further conclusions about [your] religion from it. Airmano |
Posted By: Abu Loren
Date Posted: 14 June 2014 at 3:44am
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Last night the moon was behind us during the same time scale. I'm now beginning to believe in the popular theory of the moon being a projection. (The real moon hidden). Having said all that, at around 4am when I went for Fajr prayer the moon was at the same position or thereabouts and very bright. This being the middle of the month. (Full moon). |
Posted By: Abu Loren
Date Posted: 15 June 2014 at 3:41am
This has nothing to do with religion. It's just a report of an unusual occurrence as seen by two guys. One minute the moon was directly overhead then next it was disappearing below the horizon. Science can't explain it. |
Posted By: Ron Webb
Date Posted: 15 June 2014 at 8:37am
"One minute"? Your first post said it took two hours. See how these anecdotal reports tend to get exaggerated in the retelling? Next you'll be saying that the moon split.
Sure it can. One part optical illusion, one part hyperbole, and one part observational error. ------------- Addeenul �Aql � Religion is intellect. |
Posted By: Abu Loren
Date Posted: 15 June 2014 at 11:42am
"One minute" is a brit term for a short time. Every time something weird happens you guys reach for your science books. When you open it and you see "E=MC2" then you are happy. If it doesn't then you are all bewildered. What I'm saying is that you guys just cannot think outside the box. |
Posted By: Ron Webb
Date Posted: 15 June 2014 at 2:23pm
And two hours is a short time?
Whereas you guys open your Quran and see "Allah did it"; then you just turn off your brain.
You mean we can't abandon rationality. No, we can't. Or more precisely, we won't. ------------- Addeenul �Aql � Religion is intellect. |
Posted By: Abu Loren
Date Posted: 08 July 2014 at 3:55am
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UPDATE
I want to say here and let you know that A muslim cannot lie deliberately as it a sin and because a true Muslim fears Allah and therefore it's consequences.
Tueday 08 July 2014 (between 12:45am - 01:40am)
I went to the beach again, alone this time and sat where I usually sits. There are lots of people around as it the the month of Ramadan. Families, people excercising, and relaxing.
Ar 12:50am I looked at the moon an it was looking normal, it was three quarters full. I kept looking at the moon intermittently for a while (I don't know why may be I was looking for the pehenomena as described in the OP). Then at 01:10am I looked at the moon and it was suddenly dim, it lost it's glow. It was completely differerent to how it was. I can see aeroplanes flying across as the take off path from Dubai International Airport in out into the sea. When the moon lost it's light I imagine that the people on those planes, if they looked would have seen the unusual moon. Then at 01:15am the moon completely disappeared. I waited till 01:40am to see if it will re-emerge but did not so I left.
To me this is a miracle of Allah Subhana Wa Ta'ala and if these are signs then I have no idea of it's significances. I'm not intelligent enough to decipher it.
Allahu Akbar!
|
Posted By: Ron Webb
Date Posted: 08 July 2014 at 10:24am
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They're not signs. They're most likely clouds.
By the way, how do you think the moon would be visible at all, if the sun switches off ("like a lamp") at night? ------------- Addeenul �Aql � Religion is intellect. |
Posted By: Abu Loren
Date Posted: 08 July 2014 at 11:40am
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Posted By: airmano
Date Posted: 09 July 2014 at 1:32am
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Before the sun "switches itself off" it gets covered by the horizon. Is this the moment where the sun is "half switched off" ?
Airmano |
Posted By: Abu Loren
Date Posted: 09 July 2014 at 3:19am
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Wednesday 09 July
01:30 The moon looks 'normal'. 01:50 The moon is beginning to lose it's radiance. It has an orangy haze. 02:10 The moon looks like a dried up orange. It looks as tough it has sped up and is going out of view very quickly. 02:15 The moon has disappeared from view completely. |
Posted By: schmikbob
Date Posted: 09 July 2014 at 5:17pm
| What about the stars? Are they shining brightly? Are you in an area that has smog? Is it cloudy? What do you mean by "sped up"? Does this mean it went toward the horizon quickly or that it faded from bright to dark quickly? |
Posted By: Abu Loren
Date Posted: 10 July 2014 at 3:32am
There are only 4 or 5 stars in the sky and they are visible and looks 'normal'. As for clouds they are scattered here and there but not thick clouds. The moon is at a different point in the sky each night and as soon as it goes dim it moves away at a fairly rapid speed. On Tuesday morning the moon completely disappeared as if it just vanished into thin air, then on Wednesday morning it moved away very rapidly and then disappeared from view. Although it turned dark the outline of the moon was visible for a while as it moved away. |
Posted By: Abu Loren
Date Posted: 10 July 2014 at 3:37am
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Thursday 10 July 2014
01:00 The moon look like an orb ceiling light with patches painted on it. It looks so close as if it is inside the earth's atmosphere. 01:30 The moon has dimmed somewhat but not as ddark as the two previous nights. 02:00 The moon has moved it's position slightly. 03:00 Going home as there are no developments to note. NOTE TO SELF The moon is at different positions in the sky each night. |
Posted By: schmikbob
Date Posted: 10 July 2014 at 7:18am
| Wow, the middle of the night and only 4 or 5 stars are visible. You either have some terrible light pollution, almost complete cloud cover, or serious smog. I'd start there. |
Posted By: Abu Loren
Date Posted: 10 July 2014 at 11:39am
None of the above. |
Posted By: Abu Loren
Date Posted: 11 July 2014 at 1:30pm
I took a pic with the camera on my phone, I don't know how to up load it here but see this link. http://postimg.org/image/djetw4eu1/7ea7a896/ You will see s domed building in the centre of the pic and the moon was just above it. When I took the pic the moon has already faded but it was visible to the naked eye, however it is not showing on the pic. :( Typical |
Posted By: Abu Loren
Date Posted: 11 July 2014 at 1:34pm
If you look closely you can just about make out the out line of the moon to the left of the domed building. http://postimg.org/image/74iu4z2a1/997406d0/ |
Posted By: Abu Loren
Date Posted: 11 July 2014 at 1:35pm
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The following was taken on the third morning, the moon is way above the domed building higher than it was the previous two mornings. http://postimg.org/image/70k6dkrpn/061b801f/ |
Posted By: Ron Webb
Date Posted: 11 July 2014 at 2:06pm
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FYI, tomorrow is the full moon, and the media is calling a "supermoon" because it is at its closest point to the earth in its orbit. It happens every year and it's not really that big a deal (I dislike the "supermoon" designation), but I thought you might like to know. The moon is about 15% larger in diameter, and about 30% brighter than a typical full moon. ------------- Addeenul �Aql � Religion is intellect. |
Posted By: schmikbob
Date Posted: 11 July 2014 at 4:54pm
| And only 4 or 5 stars of the thousands that should be visible to the naked eye are visible, right? |
Posted By: Abu Loren
Date Posted: 12 July 2014 at 2:45am
How many times do I have to repeat myself? Read my lips, only 4 or 5 stars are visible from here. They are dotted around the sky and not concentrated in one place. |
Posted By: schmikbob
Date Posted: 12 July 2014 at 8:08am
| all right , finally looked at your pictures. Moon is low on the horizon in all of them and VERY hazy and there is lots of lights from buildings near. This is why I said you probably have light pollution, because you do. I'm not sure why you said "none of the above" unless you did not understand the term. Can't tell if there is a smog inversion layer from the city but I bet it's a hot location and there's more than a few cars. Only a few stars are visible because all the lights from the city interfere with your seeing them. There is nothing miraculous going on but you go right on believing because that's what you do. |
Posted By: Abu Loren
Date Posted: 12 July 2014 at 12:25pm
You can't make that call from five thousand miles away looking at a hazy pic.
If there are any members here living in the Arabian Peninsula please confirm of deny that there are few stars visible here.
|
Posted By: Lachi
Date Posted: 12 July 2014 at 2:09pm
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I'm not sure what you are seeing, Abu Loren. If it's a miracle for you, then what does if signify?
As to the level of light and air pollution in Sharjah = here is a photo of Sharjah, so people can judge for themselves; [IMG]http//www.theculturist.com/storage/Vantage%20Points%20Sharjah_Yazan%20Khalili_2.jpg__SQUARESPACE_CACHEVERSION=1378243464470" /> http://www.theculturist.com/home/tag/sharjah?currentPage=2 - http://www.theculturist.com/home/tag/sharjah?currentPage=2 |
Posted By: schmikbob
Date Posted: 12 July 2014 at 10:51pm
| Wow, so that's Sharjah. Big city, lots of lights, no wonder you can only see a few stars. The Arabian Peninsula must be a truly miraculous place if you could get out of the city and civilization a only see 4 or 5 stars. |
Posted By: Abu Loren
Date Posted: 13 July 2014 at 2:46am
So that's Sharjah? |
Posted By: schmikbob
Date Posted: 13 July 2014 at 7:37am
| Abu Loren, in your pictures what are all the lights on the ground. I thought they were quite a few buildings. I suppose I could be wrong. |
Posted By: Ron Webb
Date Posted: 13 July 2014 at 11:42am
Actually, we pretty much can. The fact that the picture is hazy tells us that there's some kind of pollution interfering. It could just be a bad photo, but the fact that you say there are only four or five stars visible tells us it's not the photo that's the problem. And of course we can see that you are surrounded by artificial lighting. Not a good observing location at all, unfortunately. Is there nowhere you can go to get away from the street lights?
Did you know that you have a http://shcplanetarium.hct.ac.ae/planetarium/theplanetarium.asp - planetarium in Sharjah ? I can't tell from their Web site if they have shows open to the general public, but they do presentations for schools etc., and if you get a chance to attend one of them you might find it interesting. At any rate, they could certainly tell you what stars ought to be visible in your area. The planetarium Web site also linked to a very cool site called http://www.heavens-above.com/?Loc=Sharjah&Lat=25.362&Lng=55.391&Alt=18&TZ=UAEST - Heavens Above , which can show you the night sky (and a whole lot more) for any location on the planet. http://www.heavens-above.com/skychart.aspx?lat=25.362&lng=55.391&loc=Sharjah&alt=18&tz=UAEST - Here is the current view for Sharjah. See if you can identify any of the stars. Mars and Saturn are also visible, or would be if the atmosphere wasn't interfering. I'm really enjoying this topic, by the way. It reminds me of my first year Astronomy class. We were asked to make daily observations of the moon throughout the semester, much like Abu Loren is doing. I don't think any of us really did it properly, though, so kudos to Abu Loren!  ------------- Addeenul �Aql � Religion is intellect. |
Posted By: Abu Loren
Date Posted: 13 July 2014 at 12:51pm
The lights are lighting a walkway beside the road, like a promenade. All the buildings are to the left of the picture. Right next to the domed building in the centre there is a powerhouse which generates electricity for the City. |
Posted By: Abu Loren
Date Posted: 13 July 2014 at 12:54pm
I can go further down about 10 mins walk where the real beach is and it's without any street lights. But the thing is I don't think that this miracle will repeat itself. I wonder if it was because this is the month of Ramadan. |
Posted By: Abu Loren
Date Posted: 13 July 2014 at 12:57pm
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http://postimg.org/image/djetw4eu1/7ea7a896/ I've just looked at this photo again very closely and to the left and slightly above of the domed building you can see a very faint moon. Allahu Akbar! |
Posted By: Abu Loren
Date Posted: 13 July 2014 at 1:02pm
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http://postimg.org/image/74iu4z2a1/997406d0/ In this photo the moon has turned to an orangy dark colour and is visible. This is was second morning. Compare that to this photo http://postimg.org/image/70k6dkrpn/061b801f/ This is how the 'normal' moon looks like, very bright. |
Posted By: Abu Loren
Date Posted: 14 July 2014 at 1:07pm
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Now I think I know the reason for this miracle.
This is a test for the atheists who are members here and who visit this forum. It is a test to see if you believe, take this opportunity to change your lives. Believe in your Creator who made you from nothing, gave you a heart so that you can fill it with the craving every human being needs, that is the faith that one must have in order to live forever.
Change your lives for the better, believe in God Almighty and don't leave your hearts empty when you die. There is no payment required and it is free because it is a Mercy from my God and your God. I think He is giving you all a chance for Salvation, save your souls do not burn in hell for eternity. Paradise is much better living with your Creator for eternity.
Islam is the only religion acceptable to God Almighty, the religion that He created from before the creation of man. Believe in God Almighty, His angels , His prophets, Pre-destiny, His Revelations to mankind.
Read the Qur'an with an open and honest heart and you will be guided to the Truth. Search and research the life of the Final Messenger to mankind Prophet Mohammad (SalAllahu Alayhi Wa Sallam). Everything that happened to him was by Devine Decree so overlook how many wives he had as these things are irrelevant and search without prejudice.
Once you have found the answer then utter the words that all Muslims who surrenders to God Almighty must utter
"Ashaddu anla ilaha Illalah was ashaddu anna Mohammadan abudhu rasooluh".
Your life will change and Allah Subhana Wa Ta'ala will bless you in ways that you will think is not possible. Take this opportunity to accumalte credits so that you can enter Paradise.
It is not difficult and anybody can do it.
Alhamdulilahir Rabbil Alamin Ar Rahman ar Rahim
Allahu Akbar!
|
Posted By: Ron Webb
Date Posted: 15 July 2014 at 9:57am
Yup, could be a miracle. Or it could be clouds.  ------------- Addeenul �Aql � Religion is intellect. |
Posted By: airmano
Date Posted: 15 July 2014 at 12:06pm
Ron Webb:
Airmano |
Posted By: Abu Loren
Date Posted: 16 July 2014 at 12:32pm
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You guys stopping wasting time and take the Shahada straight away for the benefit of your soul. Time is short. If you die in this condition you will receive the severest of punishment and you will be sent to the lowest depths of hell because you mocked the truth and you rejected it whilst you knew it is the Truth from Allah Subhana Wa Ta'ala. He tells us in the Qur'an that for some people this world is amusement and play and you guys are proving this. Believe it or not ALL MUSLIMS want the best for humanity, they want EVERYBODY to go to Paradise. A Muslim by the way is a person who has submitted himself to Allah Subhana Wa Ta'ala and prays, give in charity and do good deeds. Many people are calling themselves Muslim when they are not. So hurry before you miss the boat, it's a long way to swim. |
Posted By: Ron Webb
Date Posted: 16 July 2014 at 3:38pm
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Seriously, Abu Loren, look at it from my point of view. Muslims tell me I need to take the Shahada. And Christians tell me I need to accept Jesus as my Saviour. And Hindus tell me I need to recognize and follow my Karma. And Buddhists tell me I need to follow the Noble Eightfold Path. And so on. Why should I believe your magic formula, and not theirs? Why should I believe any of them? ------------- Addeenul �Aql � Religion is intellect. |
Posted By: airmano
Date Posted: 17 July 2014 at 12:26am
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A Catholic, Muslim and a Jew are knocking on heavens door.
The bouncer says: Sorry folks, you all go to hell. All three shout: But we have been believing in God all our lives and did only rightful things! The bouncer replies: Sorry folks, wrong religion! You should have opted for the Mormons. Jokes aside:
Do you think that this is an expression of superior moral ? Airmano |
Posted By: Abu Loren
Date Posted: 17 July 2014 at 12:07pm
It's tough for somebody who doesn't believe in anything or anybody. You should look for the Truth and follow the one that you feel is the Truth from God Almighty. Don't forget satan can influence you too and he will lead you away from the Truth by making you choose Christianity, Hinduism or Buddhism. Search for the Truth with an open heart and honesty. Read the Qur'an and the hadith's without any prejudice and you will be guided to the Truth In Shaa Allah. SIDE NOTE People are generally hung up about how many wives Prophet Muhammad (SalAllahu Alayhi Wa Sallam) had and other silly things which are not even important. The important thing to remember is that he was just a human being and that he received the Final Revelation to mankind. So if you read the Qur'an and you feel that it is not from Allah Subhana Wa Ta'ala then that is fine because you have been given logic and intellect to decide and also free will. There will always be two types of people, those who believe and those who don't. |
Posted By: Ron Webb
Date Posted: 17 July 2014 at 8:07pm
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It's not true that I don't believe in anything or anybody. If you look at my profile you will see that I am a humanist, which means that I believe in humanity. I serve humanity in the same way that you serve God. The main difference, IMHO, is that humanity is relatively weak and imperfect and needs all the help it can get; while your hypothetical God, being supposedly omnipotent and perfect, cannot possibly need or want anybody's service. (Oh, plus the fact that humanity is undeniably and objectively real. ) That, for me, is the Truth. I could explain my beliefs in more detail in another discussion if you wish. ------------- Addeenul �Aql � Religion is intellect. |
Posted By: Abu Loren
Date Posted: 18 July 2014 at 2:54am
OK so you believe in human beings? Where will that get you? If I were you I'd look into the Afterlife, heaven and hell. Human beings cannot and will not save you at the end. God is not hypothetical but REAL. The air that you are breathing is His so you owe Him some gratitude. It is true that God Almighty is omnipotent and Perfect and you are also right that He doesn't NEED or WANT anybody's service but He created ALL living things to worship Him. Why? Because He can as He is the Creator, He does as He pleases being God. So you believe in the material world that you can see. That's fine but that is not belief, it is believing in what you DON'T see. That is the ultimate test. To believe, to have FAITH in your Creator and believing in everything He has said in His revelations. You see when Adam and Eve (Salaatul Alayhi Salaam) were sent down to earth mankind lost the 'connection' with God Almighty and He told us that when we go astray He will sent down revelations and whomever believes in it will have salvation but whomever follows satan and does everything contrary to what He teaches will go to Hell. You may well ask why? Well when satan tricked Adam and Eve into eating the 'fruit' God was about to destroy satan but he asked for a reprieve until the Day of Judgement, then satan promised to lead most of mankind and jinn kind to hell. This is what is happening when people like you deny the Truth. Satan is winning when people like you deny God. |
Posted By: airmano
Date Posted: 18 July 2014 at 6:07am
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Try to spot the difference:
http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/Basics/repent.htm - http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/Basics/repent.htm Airmano |
Posted By: NABA
Date Posted: 18 July 2014 at 10:25pm
| Its very strange that u believe in humanity but u don't want to believe the creator of humans and everything,the reason for what u n all of us are now is bcoz of mercy of Allah, Allah in ch 35 v 45 of Quran says if Allah cud hv wanted he cud hv destroyed us for our sins as if we never existed. |
Posted By: Ron Webb
Date Posted: 20 July 2014 at 1:20pm
"Where will that get you?" -- is that the right question? Do you decide what is true based on where it will get you? We all die in the end. Nothing will save you, not even belief in a fictitious god. Sorry. But belief in humanity makes this life more satisfying and gives us a sense of purpose and a kind of immortality as a species. That's the best we can hope for, realistically. And from experience, I can tell you that it is enough. I don't need fairy stories about an afterlife. I am happy with this one life. Frankly, it strikes me as greedy and ungrateful to want more.
I don't think you understand. When I say I believe in humanity, I am not saying only that the human species exists. Certainly we all can see that; but beyond that, I believe that it is good that humanity exists. Despite the many flaws in individual humans, I believe that the human species as a whole is worth promoting and perpetuating. I believe that because I myself am human, and to believe the converse would mean that I might as well kill myself. You obviously believe that God is good. Why? ------------- Addeenul �Aql � Religion is intellect. |
Posted By: Ron Webb
Date Posted: 20 July 2014 at 1:42pm
Why is it strange? I believe in humanity because I have many good reasons to do so, not the least of which is that I am human. I don't believe in any of the various fairy stories concocted over the millennia by countless self-appointed prophets and spiritual leaders, for the same reasons that you don't believe in most of them either. As Stephen F Roberts put it so eloquently, "When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours." ------------- Addeenul �Aql � Religion is intellect. |
Posted By: Abu Loren
Date Posted: 20 July 2014 at 2:03pm
This is the fundamental difference between you and me. I believe there is an afterlife because it makes sense to me, the belief that we are all born, then live a life here and then die and turn to dust and that's it doesn't inspire me. If that is the case then this life is absolutely pointless, in my opinion. I believe that we are not made randomly but chosen by a Creator to live this life as best as we can and to see if we are worthy to live in the next life.
How many good human beings do you know? I bet you can count them all in one hand. But if these people don't beleve in God nor have the fear of God then they are all probably liars and cheats.
Again you are just confirming that you only believe what you see. That is very narrow and looking at life like tunnel vision. Just look at the natural beauty that is all around you, they did not all form randomly by chance, they were all created for us, FOR US. Just look at creation and ponder and then thank God for all that you see.
I can't say if God is good or not because that is judging God, we can't do that. I can only go by what He taught us. That is that he is Ever Living and He has no beginning nor end. We human beings do not uunderstand this concept because for us everything must have a beginning and an end.
I believe in God because it makes sense for me to believe in Him, I believe that He Created my soul and made me alive by giving me life through my parents and making me understand Him a little through His revelations and doing what pleases Him so that I can have a chance to spend eternity with Him.
It comes down to two types of human beings, one that has spirituality and the other bogged down in materialism and the material world.
You should, perhaps, seach how to be a spiritual person.
These fairy stories makes a hell of lot of sense to me.
I have been blesses in so many ways since I became a Muslim and leading a life that is, In Shaa Allah, pleasing to Him.
It's not just you but the majority of Adam's children have a problem in believing in Him hence the reason that many will spend eternity in hell.
One needs to be humble and needs to get rid of arrogance to understand God. (This is not just for you but a general statement). Arrogant people will NEVER understand God.
Also only a humble person could love Allah Subhana Wa Ta'ala and the Prophet (SalAllahu Alayhi Wa Sallam) more than himself.
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Posted By: NABA
Date Posted: 21 July 2014 at 2:45am
| Assalamalecum,I believe in all prophets of Allah because it is one of the six pillars of faith in islam, Allah in ch 4 v 150-151 says those who don't want to believe in all prophets and wish to discriminate among each other, they are disbelievers and their abode is hell. |
Posted By: Ron Webb
Date Posted: 21 July 2014 at 3:29pm
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Do you believe things because they make sense to you, or because they inspire you? Or do you not see any difference?
I think most human beings are basically good. You may mean how many perfect human beings do I know? And the answer is, none.
That's a very offensive accusation, especially considering you hardly know me at all. You think I am a liar and a cheat? If it weren't for God, would you be a liar and a cheat?
So God might be evil? And yet you trust him and serve him unquestioningly? How do you know that He is not a liar and a cheat? ------------- Addeenul �Aql � Religion is intellect. |
Posted By: Ron Webb
Date Posted: 21 July 2014 at 3:49pm
Out of all the scriptures and allegedly inspired writings from all over the world, you picked the Quran, and believe that one. Why? ------------- Addeenul �Aql � Religion is intellect. |
Posted By: NABA
Date Posted: 22 July 2014 at 2:56am
| I believe what is mentioned in Quran, and we have to follow Quran till the end,bible is moderated form of ingil,there are so many errors in bibke but Quran is flawless because its the word of Allah, I believe that Jesus Christ (pbuh) is not dead(ch 4 v 157-158)and will come back as a sign of judgement day (ch 43 v61 of Quran).Allah mentions about resurrection on last day, to believe in judgement day is also one of the 6 pillars of faith in islam. |
Posted By: Abu Loren
Date Posted: 22 July 2014 at 3:54am
Why not? Do you believe in things that doesn't make sense to you? To believe in something, first you must understand what you are believing otherwise one could easily follow satan. Of course there are satanists who do just that because they want to enjoy this life to the max. One must also recognise what is Truth and what is falsehood.
I agree with you that most human beings are good otherwise this world would be totally different but the minority of bad people impact this world so much. Isn't it amazing that all these good human beings do not believe in their Maker. The majority of these people know about heaven and hell but chose not to do anything about it. Possibly they are thinking like you that it is a fairy tale and when they die they will just turn to dust.
I'm not accusing you of anything, I was just making a general comment about the people who do not believe in God Almighty. What I meant was that people generally lie and cheat thinking that nothing will come of it or that there are no consequences. I say this because I see my friends and when I scrutinise them very carefully they lie and cheat. I'm just saying that it is easy for people who do not believe in or fear God Almighty, they don't think twice.
Look at it this way, if God was evil then there will not be any goodness in human beings and we will all be trying to kill each other on a mass scale. People of God do not do evil things but they strive to be righteous and do good. I believe God when He tells us that He created evil and that He is above what we associate with Him. If God was evil then it does not make sense that He sends messengers and Prophets when we go astray and trying to guide us all to goodness. I know that He is not a liar and a cheat because what I have read and researched about Him tells me that He is good. If you follow His guidance then there is a reward at the end and if we do not then there is punishment. Surely that is fair. Let's say that you have two sons and one always listens to you and the other is a rebel always disobeying you. Your natural inclination is to love the son who obeys you. That is not wrong is it? Also God Almighty tells us about Himself in the scriptures and this at the end of the day is all about belief. Put simply either you believe Him or you do not. Those who believe in Him by faith alone and does not need any proof because faith itself is enough. That is the ultimate test, to believe in Him unseen. Those who need proof will be given proof when He and the angels descend on the Last Day when it will be too late. |
Posted By: Abu Loren
Date Posted: 22 July 2014 at 4:01am
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I just want to add something here about belief. Some people are 'naturally' sceptic meaning that they will not believe anything or anybody. For example, if I said that I went to the local grocery store today and bought a bar of chocolate, those sceptics would say "no you didn't". |
Posted By: airmano
Date Posted: 22 July 2014 at 9:15am
Abu Loren
If I knew you (and based on that I'd also knew that you're an honest man) I would simply believe you, especially if it doesn't make any difference to rest rest of the world whether you bought the chocolate bar or not. Things become more tricky if I was a policeman (seeking for truth) and your alibi would be that it can't be you because you bought a chocolate bar at the moment when the crime happened. In this case proof would be the sum of: a) Your grocer confirms "yes, he bought a chocolate bar today" b) Your balance of account would show that you used your credit card in this shop, at the specified time c) You still have the paper wrap of the chocolate bar which you can show me. d) Your friends & wife confirm that you like chocolate bars that much that you buy them (almost) every day e) Your neighbour confirms that you left house at the indicated time f) You still have the bill showing that you bought the chocolate bar at the specified time .... and so on. In other words (hard) proof means many independent pieces of information that are all(!) coherent with the claim (that you really did buy a chocolate bar at the time in question). And: The higher the claim (or the "value" at stake) the stronger the evidence (= independent confirming observations) has to be. The Quran claims to be the "ultimate explanation" of (almost) everything. I therefore consider that the proof for its rightness has to be very, very, very strong. Unfortunately INDEPEDENT (confirming) information is what is missing. People believe in the Quran because the Quran says "You must believe me" or "Why don't they see!" (or similar). Sorry, but for me this is by far not enough ! There are even people that refuse strong evidence supported by many independent measurements, done by independent people of different religions and cultures all over the world (like the scientific claim on thermonuclear reactions in the sun), just because this seems to be in conflict with the Quran. Airmano |
Posted By: Abu Loren
Date Posted: 25 July 2014 at 12:34pm
Killing apostates was only prescribed at the time of the Prophet (SalAllahu Alayhi Wa Sallam) because it was needed to establish the religion with the permission of Allah Subhana Wa Ta'ala.
Killing apostes in the modern world is not authorised in the Qur'an nor in the Hadiths of the Prophet (SalAllahu Alayhi Wa Sallam). Modern Islam rely on a weak hadith to execute apostates.
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Posted By: Abu Loren
Date Posted: 25 July 2014 at 12:37pm
Google 'faith'.
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Posted By: Abu Loren
Date Posted: 25 July 2014 at 12:53pm
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By the way, all you atheists on this forum, are you not going to believe in the miracle of Allah Subhana Wa Ta'ala?
There's nothing stopping you believing in your Creator. Just get to know Him a bit more by reading the Qur'an with an open and honest heart and In Shaa Allah you will take the Shahada and give yourselves a chance for eternal salvation.
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Posted By: Ron Webb
Date Posted: 25 July 2014 at 4:15pm
What miracle? ------------- Addeenul �Aql � Religion is intellect. |
Posted By: airmano
Date Posted: 25 July 2014 at 8:19pm
Abu Loren
In this respect your religion can't be distinguished from any other. And BTW: I'm not an atheist, I consider myself as agnostic. I'll come to your other points at a later moment. Airmano |
Posted By: Abu Loren
Date Posted: 26 July 2014 at 12:20pm
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Posted By: Ron Webb
Date Posted: 26 July 2014 at 12:35pm
Is that why you can't answer the question? P.S.: My mouth? You wish!  ------------- Addeenul �Aql � Religion is intellect. |
Posted By: Abu Loren
Date Posted: 28 July 2014 at 3:08am
R U really stuupid? The miracle I witnessed for you atheists and which the three pics prove. |
Posted By: Ron Webb
Date Posted: 28 July 2014 at 7:19pm
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But you just said yourself that the moon is visible in the photos. It's just obscured by haze, which often happens when it is near the horizon. So, what miracle?
------------- Addeenul �Aql � Religion is intellect. |
Posted By: Abu Loren
Date Posted: 29 July 2014 at 5:02am
I told you I saw the moon turn dark and disappear in front of my eyes. That's a miracle, and it was all for you all atheists so that you can believe Or not as the case may be but nonetheless it was a miracle from Allah Subhana Wa Ta'ala. You must believe or face going to hell for ever and ever. |
Posted By: marcello
Date Posted: 29 July 2014 at 7:42am
So, because you are "not intelligent enough", you believe that what you saw must be a "miracle". That is a statement typical of the uneducated: "If I don't understand something, God must have done it!" As you are probably unaware, there is an inverse relationship between education and religiosity. Statistically, for every year of formal education (madras education doesn't count), belief in god(s) declines by 4%. Do you wonder why the Taliban likes to blow up schools? |
Posted By: abuayisha
Date Posted: 29 July 2014 at 8:54pm
Education or should I say secular education has so proudly portrayed itself as scientific and reasonable it hasn't noticed it has created a "religious" dogma of its own. Happily anti-tradition and religion. It is little wonder that same sex marriage is the new norm, (but the Taliban doesn't count),the more formal education one has. A decline in belief in God is progressive. How very sad indeed. How morally worthless. |
Posted By: Abu Loren
Date Posted: 30 July 2014 at 3:40am
I'm shocked. LOL |
Posted By: Ron Webb
Date Posted: 30 July 2014 at 5:50am
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Say what you want about same sex marriage but it has done you no harm whatsoever. On the other hand, secular education has doubled your lifespan, made you healthier and more comfortable and better fed than Muhammad's contemporaries, and given you innumerable other advantages -- not the least of which, that computer sitting in front of you right now, with which you casually chat with people all over the world and criticize secular education. The irony is breathtaking. It could also tell you about a more amazing and inspiring universe than Muhammad ever dreamed of, if only you would listen. What has your religious tradition accomplished in the last 1400 years? (And the Taliban doesn't count.) ------------- Addeenul �Aql � Religion is intellect. |
Posted By: abuayisha
Date Posted: 30 July 2014 at 8:08am
| Indeed there is a distinction between education and secular education. I am not anti-science or anti-education, as much of the secularist are staunchly against religion and tradition. After all education is built upon tradition. |
Posted By: marcello
Date Posted: 30 July 2014 at 10:14am
Secular education in the sciences is continually being updated as newly discovered evidence causes theories to be discarded, revised, and improved. Religious education is based on mythology from the dark ages and earlier, and is immune to evidence. There is such a huge difference between the two that the term "religious education" is essentially an oxymoron. |
Posted By: Abu Loren
Date Posted: 01 August 2014 at 3:50am
Dear Marcello You could do with a religious education. Google 'God'. ------------- La Ilaha IllAllah |
Posted By: airmano
Date Posted: 01 August 2014 at 5:37am
Abu Loren
I did and what do I get? First entry: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/God - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/God - A classic! Than: http://godisimaginary.com/ - http://godisimaginary.com/ . In the same google entry you'll find (Only a Copy-paste from my side): "Proof #1 - Realize that Jesus was a jerk - Proof #5 - Read the Bible - Proof #3" and than http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/06608a.htm? - http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/06608a.htm? and what do I read on this page? "The blessed Trinity" Wow! Are you serious ? Im Tal der Kuffars: Airmano |
Posted By: abuayisha
Date Posted: 01 August 2014 at 8:56am
Again, I'm all for new discoveries in science, however an educational system without God is one without morals. Right and wrong becomes simply a matter of opinion. Therefore same sex marriage becomes progressive. An event such as the "naked bike ride" is just a fun outing. Moral decay is what troubles me. I never said "religious education", but an educational system that isn't anti-religion. |
Posted By: airmano
Date Posted: 01 August 2014 at 2:59pm
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@abuayisha: In a certain sense I would even agree on what you say. When I switch on TV today and I see all the rubbish there is I also wonder what we really do with the freedom that modern technology has provided (personally I threw my TV set out 10 years ago and I still see this as the most liberating act of my life.) But I also think that there is a lot of confusion about this subject: what distinguishes modern religions from older ones is their social aspect (the Greek or Roman Gods looked at the earth as a pitiful place). In this sense humanism is just a logical continuation of a development that started already hundreds if not thousands of years ago.
The problem I have with the religious view is the following: By saying "God wants it so" you kill any discussions (what is probably the desired effect). But this stops also any evolution and adaption to changes in our live and environment and allows also for the most cruel action you can imagine (remember Abraham ready to kill his own son ?) What strikes me all the time in discussion with religious people is this claim of superior morality. Once I saw a TV report (before I threw it out of the window) about communists in German concentration camps who begged their friends to kill them because they knew that they would not be able to stand the interrogation methods the Nazis did apply and that they would thus be likely to break down at a given moment and leak information doing harm their companions (I'm German myself, I think I know what I'm talking about). Now, communists are not known for being particularly religious. I think that on a moral level what they did is the ultimate sacrifice a human being can do, independent of your political and religious views. This is just to say: Religion makes the enforcement of moral principles easier (because appealing to god lifts it of any criticism and provides an "ultimate legitimization"). That does however not necessarily mean that these (religious) principles are better by any means than those of non-religious people. Airmano |
Posted By: Ron Webb
Date Posted: 01 August 2014 at 4:55pm
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I think I understand what you're saying, abuayisha, but are you sure you want an educational system to teach morals at all? Isn't that the job of the parents? Or you might say, the mosques? Personally, I want an educational system that is neutral to religion, and neutral to all but the most basic moral values (e.g., tolerance, respect for law, democratic principles). Not anti-religion, but certainly not pro-religion either. ------------- Addeenul �Aql � Religion is intellect. |
Posted By: thuwn
Date Posted: 01 August 2014 at 5:13pm
I thought the sun and the moon are swimming in their orbits? Therefore the earth as well isn't? And the moon - We have determined for it phases, until it returns [appearing] like the old date stalk. (Ya seen 39) |
Posted By: abuayisha
Date Posted: 01 August 2014 at 5:37pm
| Yes, but where are these "most basic moral values" derived if not from God? God has been removed from secular education, therefore right and wrong simply becomes relative terms. So when a college professors allows for a sex act to take place in his classroom to illustrate a point, is he wrong? Says who? Or when a nude women is placed in front of the art class for students to draw. Frankly, it doesn't have to be my religion, just an acknowledgement of a moral compass - God, from whom values and morals spring forth. Living in America I'd be happy with the Ten Commandments to somewhat anchor our youth through education. What we have now is not really making for a better society in my estimation. |
Posted By: airmano
Date Posted: 02 August 2014 at 1:52am
| Thread forwarded to next page... |
Posted By: Abu Loren
Date Posted: 02 August 2014 at 4:16am
Yes indeed the Sun and the Moon are swimming in their orbits, that is around the Earth. This is because the Earth is stationary and the central focus of our Universe. I was given a glimpse of the moon as an old date stalk as the moon grew dark and lost it's light and disappeared in front of my eyes. The following morning it did the same and looked like a withered old orange. Please look at the pics I've posted. Now the reason for this is for all the atheists on this forum to believe in God Almighty. So believe. ------------- La Ilaha IllAllah |
Posted By: Abu Loren
Date Posted: 02 August 2014 at 4:25am
The modern world would have been a savage world had ti not been for the morality that was imposed to the Western World by the Christian church. Even in the Dark Ages the world was about to sink into a hell hole but was held together by the Christian morals. Sounds funny I know to see me defending Christian morals. ------------- La Ilaha IllAllah |
Posted By: airmano
Date Posted: 02 August 2014 at 4:37am
Abuayischa
When looking at your post (but also others) I see however one thing which is repeatedly put in the front line of moral discussion: Sex - and all the facets that go with it ("nude women", "Gay marriage" and so on). Just have a look around the world you will see that being naked is quite a natural thing especially in most of (the left) "primitive" tribes. Showing sexual attributes of the human body (or not) is much more cultural than anything else - or would you claim that all these tribes are "immoral"? There are even sexually explicit "religious parties" like this one in http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/04/07/japan-penis-festival-kanamara-matsuri_n_5106378.html - Japan . But that is just a side aspect, my real question when it comes to moral is: Why do you always trigger on sexual issues (that don't do any harm to others) and not on violence, oppression, and disinformation that are the real plagues in this world ? And talking about violence: Would you say that that Mohamed's attack(!) and killing of the complete Banu Qurayza tribe was a particularly moral act? I think that here we have a clear case were "religious justification" (= " Sorry folks, Gabriel/God told me, so I had no choice") is (ab-)used to commit immoral doing. Once you open the door to this kind of logic, criminal acts like this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aum_Shinrikyo - Aum or even that: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Manson - Manson can be easily justified. This is why (for me at least) the man made http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Universal_Declaration_of_Human_Rights - Universal Declaration of Human Rights is far above the religiously motivated ones. Airmano |
Posted By: thuwn
Date Posted: 02 August 2014 at 5:02pm
- And [even] if We opened to them a gate from the heaven and they continued therein to ascend, - They would say, "Our eyes have only been dazzled. Rather, we are a people affected by magic." - And We have placed within the heaven great stars and have beautified it for the observers. (Al Hijr 14-16) |