Abu Loren wrote: http://sunnah.com/bukhari/30 Enjoy!

Narrated Talha bin 'Ubaidullah:

A bedouin with unkempt hair came to Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) and said, "O Allah's Messenger (ﷺ)! Inform me what Allah has made compulsory for me as regards the prayers." He replied: "You have to offer perfectly the five compulsory prayers in a day and night (24 hours), unless you want to pray Nawafil." The bedouin further asked, "Inform me what Allah has made compulsory for me as regards fasting." He replied, "You have to fast during the whole month of Ramadan, unless you want to fast more as Nawafil." The bedouin further asked, "Tell me how much Zakat Allah has enjoined on me." Thus, Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) informed him about all the rules (i.e. fundamentals) of Islam. The bedouin then said, "By Him Who has honored you, I will neither perform any Nawafil nor will I decrease what Allah has enjoined on me. Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) said, "If he is saying the truth, he will succeed (or he will be granted Paradise).

TG12345 wrote: Also, another obvious problem would with the Quran's instruction to eat and drink the night before the fast, until the sun can be seen. There will be no night before Ramadan starts in Inuvik this year. The last night there this year was on May 24th. The sun has been up for the past 2 weeks, and will be up until July 20th.   Why did the Quran's author (who allegedly inspired Muhammad) not give exemptions or special instructions to Muslims living up north? Was he unaware that in some parts of the word, the sun does not set for weeks at a time? Or that Muslims will one day be living in Inuvik? Surely he didn't intend for them to die of dehydration. The Quran and hadiths teach that suicide is illegal. Yet if Muslims living far up north were to follow what the Quran teaches, they would be committing suicide.

Abu Loren wrote: The answer to your questions are that those Muslims are to follow the Mecca time line, meaning to start and stop the fast according to the Meccan time.

Abu Loren wrote: I understand where you are coming from, however, the Qur'an is not specific about these things it is the Prophet (SalAllahu Alayhi Wa Salaam0 who explains everything in detail and giving us comprehensive instructions in what to do.

Abu Loren wrote: If you are asking why Allah Subhana Wa Ta'ala and the Prophet (SalAllahu Alayhi Wa Sallam) left out the Muslims living in the Arctic Circle then you're reasoning is in question. The Qur'an nor the Hadiths give any specific detalis of any country in how to go about fasting.

Abu Loren wrote:  Human logic says that people living in these areas will work out how many hours they need to fast and not go about committing mass suicide which is a great sin in Islam.

ROVANIEMI, Finland - How do you observe dawn-to-dusk fasting when there is neither dawn nor dusk?

It's a question facing a small but growing number of Muslims celebrating the holy month of Ramadan on the northern tip of Europe, where the the sun barely dips below the horizon at this time of year.

In Rovaniemi, a northern Finland town that straddles the Arctic Circle at 66 degrees north, the sun rises around 3:20 a.m. and sets about 11:20pm. That means Muslims who observe Ramadan could be required to go without food or drink for 20 hours.

In a few years, Ramadan will begin even closer to the summer solstice in late June, when the sun doesn't set at all.

"We have to use common sense," said Mahmoud Said, 27, who came to Finnish Lapland from Kenya three years ago.

To Said, that means following the fasting hours of the nearest Muslim country: Turkey.

"It involves 14 or 15 hours of fasting which is okay, it's not bad," said Said, who works for a non-governmental organization helping immigrants settle in the area. He estimates there are a little over 100 Muslims in Rovaniemi, mainly from Iraq, Somalia and Afghanistan.

There is no unanimity on how to deal with the issue, which is becoming more pressing as more Muslim immigrants find their way to sparsely inhabited areas near the Arctic.

In Alaska, the Islamic Community Center of Anchorage, "after consultation with scholars," advises Muslims to follow the fasting hours of Mecca, Islam's holiest city.

The Dublin-based European Council for Fatwa and Research, however, said Muslims need to follow the local sunrise and sunset, even up north.

"The debate on how to do this in the north has been on going on for a few years," said Omar Mustafa, the chairman of the Islamic Association of Sweden. "We fast according to the sun. As long as it is possible to tell dusk from dawn. This applies to 90 per cent of Sweden's Muslims."

The few Muslims who live so far north that they are awash in 24-hour daylight should follow the daylight hours the closest city in Sweden where you can tell dawn from dusk, he said, noting that it's permitted to break the fast for health reasons.

Kaltouma Abakar and her extended family of nine relatives came to Finland from Sudan's Darfur region four years ago. She opts to observe the local Lapland sunrise and sunset times before breaking the fast in her downtown Rovaniemi apartment.

Kaltouma explains that she gets up early and works until the afternoon, then starts cooking the family's iftar meal around 5 p.m.

"The time of Ramadan fasting is very long, and breaking the fast can be around 11:30 in the evening. The time you're supposed to eat your breakfast is 2 o'clock in the morning," the 31-year old said.

In the kitchen, Kaltouma's two daughters � aged 11 and 6 � help prepare the food. They fry chicken and pastries filled with tuna in scalding hot oil. A pot of rice simmers on the stove while one girl kneads cornmeal dough which they'll dip into a chicken broth and eat with their fingers � traditional Sudanese style � a few hours later.

Apart from the late sunset times, Kaltouma said the lack of "Muslim food" locally in Rovaniemi can be a challenge. She sometimes has to wait several days for halal meat and other traditional ingredients to come from the larger cities of Oulu, or Helsinki in the south.

Even though, technically, there is nightfall in Rovaniemi at this time of year, there is no true darkness. Instead, there'sdn a grey gloaming with occasional dappled rays of sun reaching over the northern horizon, giving the city a mystical quality even in the supposed dead of night.

The dates of Ramadan change according to the lunar calendar, moving back 11 days each year. That means that by 2015 there will be no sunset for a month when Ramadan falls closer to midsummer.

Still, Kaltouma says "there is going to be at least 10 minutes for us to break the fast."

She said there is one positive aspect of observing long fasting hours in the Arctic during Ramadan: the cool temperatures.

"Unlike Africa, here in Finland you don't get thirsty often. No matter how long you fast, you don't get the urge for water."

___

Associated Press writer Karl Ritter in Stockholm contributed to this report.

Abu Loren wrote: As I've suspected your st**idity had lead to you to this. I knew I was expecting something really st**id from you.

TG12345 wrote: You have been unable to answer my counterarguments. Why did the Quran's author and Muhammad provide exemptions to all kinds of people from fasting, but leave the situation of Muslims up north to "human logic"? And why tell Muslims to refer to the Quran and Muhammad if they disagree with each other over an issue, when they both tell Muslims up north - who do disagree over when to fast- to do something that is impossible to achieve during Ramadan? You can laugh all you want. The joke's on you.

Abu Loren wrote: A hole I've answered your questions.

Abu Loren wrote: So you want God Almighty and His messenger to specifically mention in the Qur'an and Hadiths that "People in Inuik can do what they like with regard to fasting"?

Abu Loren wrote: They follow the Meccan time line.

There is no unanimity on how to deal with the issue, which is becoming more pressing as more Muslim immigrants find their way to sparsely inhabited areas near the Arctic.

In Alaska, the Islamic Community Center of Anchorage, "after consultation with scholars," advises Muslims to follow the fasting hours of Mecca, Islam's holiest city.

The Dublin-based European Council for Fatwa and Research, however, said Muslims need to follow the local sunrise and sunset, even up north.

"The debate on how to do this in the north has been on going on for a few years," said Omar Mustafa, the chairman of the Islamic Association of Sweden. "We fast according to the sun. As long as it is possible to tell dusk from dawn. This applies to 90 per cent of Sweden's Muslims."

The few Muslims who live so far north that they are awash in 24-hour daylight should follow the daylight hours the closest city in Sweden where you can tell dawn from dusk, he said, noting that it's permitted to break the fast for health reasons.

Abu Loren wrote: I pray to God Almighty that He gives you LOGIC.

Allah's Apostle mentioned Ramadan and said, "Do not fast unless you see the crescent (of Ramadan), and do not give up fasting till you see the crescent (of Shawwal), but if the sky is overcast (if you cannot see it), then act on estimation (i.e. count Sha'ban as 30 days)."" (Sahih Bukhari, Book 31, Number 130)

- Either to abide by the timings of the countries in which the Islamic legislations appeared and in which day and night hours are in moderation (Mecca and Medina). That is, to fast the same number of hours as these two cities.

-Or to calculate the hours of fasting in the closest country, in which day and night hours are in moderation; and in which the wisdom of Allah Almighty�s decree of Prayers and Fasting is maintained without resulting in too much exhaustion or fatigue.

islamispeace wrote: The claim that TG has made is that the Quran has committed an "error" by not realizing that there are some regions of the world where fasting would be extremely difficult.  Yet this argument is fallacious for the following reasons. First, it has already been pointed out that when the crescent moon cannot be sighted due to cloud cover, Muslims are told to "estimate" and complete 30 days of Shaban before beginning Ramadan.  This is proven in the hadith literature: "Narrated Abdullah bin Umar: Allah's Apostle mentioned Ramadan and said, "Do not fast unless you see the crescent (of Ramadan), and do not give up fasting till you see the crescent (of Shawwal), but if the sky is overcast (if you cannot see it), then act on estimation (i.e. count Sha'ban as 30 days)."" (Sahih Bukhari, Book 31, Number 130) So, since estimating is clearly allowed, on what grounds can anyone object to the solutions that Abu Loren and others have suggested (i.e. that people living in places like Alaska can fast based on the timings of Mecca)?

For the simple reason that Muhammad told people what to do if the moon is covered up, but not if the sun is up all day. Both he and the Quran's author came up with many exemptions for different people, and as we shall see later on, with what Muslims should do in the end times. However, neither of them considered the possibility that there are some parts of the world where the sun does not go down for weeks at a time.

islamispeace wrote:   Another option for these people is to estimate their fasting times based on the time of the nearest country where the sun is visible on a regular basis.  This is the view of many scholars.  Here is an example of a fatwa on this subject: "We believe that Muslims living near to the North and South poles and what is close to them; in which the days are long and nights short; have two choices when it comes to fasting Ramadan: - Either to abide by the timings of the countries in which the Islamic legislations appeared and in which day and night hours are in moderation (Mecca and Medina). That is, to fast the same number of hours as these two cities. -Or to calculate the hours of fasting in the closest country, in which day and night hours are in moderation; and in which the wisdom of Allah Almighty�s decree of Prayers and Fasting is maintained without resulting in too much exhaustion or fatigue. As it might not be easy to calculate the closest country to Sweden that maintains this status, we are more inclined towards proposing that Muslims who live in Sweden and other countries with the same situation, to fast the exact number of hours that Muslims fast in Mecca and Medina. Taking into factor, that their fasting starts at the time of Fadjr in their location [Sweden, etc.], without taking into account their day and night hours, nor having to wait for sunset or nightfall to stop fasting. We reached this conclusion in accordance with what scholars pursue when it comes to estimating the timings of Prayers and Fasting and following the orders of Allah and His guidance in the Holy Quran, as Allah in His mercy says: {Allah intends for you ease and does not intend for you hardship and [wants] for you to complete the period and to glorify Allah for that [to] which He has guided you; and perhaps you will be grateful.} (Surat Albaqarah 2: 185). Allah Almighty also says: {Allah does not charge a soul except [with that within] its capacity.} (Surat Albaqarah 2: 286)." ( http://mission-alnoor.org/Admin/asp/Mailed_details.asp?M_ID=821 - http://mission-alnoor.org/Admin/asp/Mailed_details.asp?M_ID=821 )

That's nice, but not all Muslim scholars agree. In 2012 at least, some scholars told Muslims to fast according to Mecca time, and others according to local time, in places where the sun does set. There was a disagreement.

There is no unanimity on how to deal with the issue, which is becoming more pressing as more Muslim immigrants find their way to sparsely inhabited areas near the Arctic.

In Alaska, the Islamic Community Center of Anchorage, "after consultation with scholars," advises Muslims to follow the fasting hours of Mecca, Islam's holiest city.

The Dublin-based European Council for Fatwa and Research, however, said Muslims need to follow the local sunrise and sunset, even up north.

"The debate on how to do this in the north has been on going on for a few years," said Omar Mustafa, the chairman of the Islamic Association of Sweden. "We fast according to the sun. As long as it is possible to tell dusk from dawn. This applies to 90 per cent of Sweden's Muslims."

The few Muslims who live so far north that they are awash in 24-hour daylight should follow the daylight hours the closest city in Sweden where you can tell dawn from dusk, he said, noting that it's permitted to break the fast for health reasons.

http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/2012/07/24/muslims-in-arctic-look-fo_n_1697528.html

((And) if you differ in anything amongst yourselves, refer it to Allah and His Messenger). Mujahid and several others among the Salaf said that the Ayah means, "(Refer) to the Book of Allah and the Sunnah of His Messenger.'' This is a command from Allah that whatever areas the people dispute about, whether major or minor areas of the religion, they are required to refer to the Qur'an and Sunnah for judgment concerning these disputes. In another Ayah, Allah said,

(And in whatsoever you differ, the decision thereof is with Allah). Therefore, whatever the Book and Sunnah decide and testify to the truth of, then it, is the plain truth. What is beyond truth, save falsehood This is why Allah said, u

(if you believe in Allah and in the Last Day.) meaning, refer the disputes and conflicts that arise between you to the Book of Allah and the Sunnah of His Messenger for judgment. Allah's statement,

(if you believe in Allah and in the Last Day. ) indicates that those who do not refer to the Book and Sunnah for judgment in their disputes, are not believers in Allah or the Last Day. Allah said...

http://www.qtafsir.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=644&Itemid=59

The scholars in 2012- and the Muslims who needed to know what to do during Ramadan- should have turned to the Quran and Sunnah for judgement. Both of these sources tell Muslims to fast from when they see the sun rise to when it sets.

islamispeace wrote: Estimating prayers times have also been proven in the hadith literature.  For example, in a hadith about the coming of the Dajjal, it is stated that Muslims should estimate their prayers during the tribulation: "[...] He (Dajjal) would be a young man with twisted, contracted hair, and a blind eye. I compare him to 'Abd-ul-'Uzza b. Qatan. He who amongst you would survive to see him should recite over him the opening verses of Sura Kahf (xviii.). He would appear on the way between Syria and Iraq and would spread mischief right and left. O servant of Allah! adhere (to the path of Truth). We said: Allah's Messenger, how long would he stay on the earth? He said.. For forty days, one day like a year and one day like a month and one day like a week and the rest of the days would be like your days. We said: Allah's Messenger, would one day's prayer suffice for the prayers of day equal to one year? Thereupon he said: No, but you must make an estimate of time (and then observe prayer). [...]" (Sahih Muslim, Book 41, Number 7015)

This is in regards to daily prayer, not to fasting. And it is in regards to the End Times, not ordinary times.

What is interesting is that Muhammad was considerate enough to tell 7th century Muslims what to do when the Dajjal comes (and he hasn't came yet), but left nothing in terms of instruction for 20th century Muslims and Muslims in the first 14 years of the 21st.

islamispeace wrote:   Scholars refer to this hadith as proof that estimating prayers (and fasts) is allowed in extreme situations.  The website "www.islamtoday.com" states: "All Muslim scholars agree that whenever there is perpetual day or perpetual night for 24 hours or more, the prayer times during the affected days should be approximated. This is because the Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) said: "There will come a time when there will be a day like a year, a day like a month, and a day like a week�" The people asked him if during the day like a year, should they offer each prayer only once. He replied: "You should approximate the times." [Sah�h Muslim]" ( http://en.islamtoday.net/artshow-384-3955.htm - http://en.islamtoday.net/artshow-384-3955.htm ) Since the timing of prayer and fasting both depend on the position of the sun, and since estimating prayer under extenuating circumstances is clearly established, then the same rules would apply to fasting.  Estimating the time would be perfectly acceptable under the rules of the Sharia.

However, Muhammad was not referring to ordinary days, but to the End Times... after the coming of the Dajjal. He also didn't say anything about how to fast when the sun stays up all day.

islamispeace wrote: Second, in most inhabited areas near the poles, it is nevertheless possible to calculate the fasting times, so this is another option for people living in these areas.  As the website www.moonsighting.com explains: "The answer is simpler than what you may think. Polar regions like Norway, Finland, and Alaska have areas where the sun stays below horizon for several months in winter, and stays above horizon for several months in summer. However, there comes a time in every day when the sun is at its highset point (Noon) and at lowest point (Midnight). At temperate latitudes, the highest point is visible but lowest point is below horizon. But at higher latitudes (Polar region, like Norway, Finland, and Alaska) the highest and lowest point occur below horizon in winter (meaning several months long night), and above horizon in summer when the sun never sets for several months (meaning several months long day). But we can calculate those two points and determine Prayer times around those two known times every day. Having determined the prayer times, the fasting time is already set. " ( http://moonsighting.com/faq_pt.html#G2 - http://moonsighting.com/faq_pt.html#G2 ) http:// - The website also provides a chart (which is too big to paste here), which shows that in most locations, it is still possible, using the calculations, to determine the fasting times.  While some of these times can be rather long, almost 24 hours in some cases, they are still within the capacity of most people to do.

In "most" locations, yes. But not all.

Also, the Quran says nothing about being able to see or not see the "highest" or "lowest" point of the sun. Fasting starts when "the white thread of dawn becomes distinct to you from the black thread of night". Muhammad clarified that the black thread is a reference to the darkness of night and the white thread is a reference to the whiteness of dawn.

islamispeace wrote:   Finally, it should be stated that these rulings apply to highly irregular and rare circumstances which affect a very small number of Muslims.  These situations didn't even surface until quite recently.  To claim that it is a major "error" is like claiming that since the Quran does not mention rulings on things like praying on airplanes it is somehow an "error".  That is specious and childish reasoning at best.

What difference does it make how many Muslims are affected?

The fact is that both the Quran's author and Muhammad told Muslims to fast from when they see the whiteness of dawn to when it is dark. In some parts of the Arctic Circle, that is impossible.

Furthermore, the Quran tells Muslims to refer to Muhammad and the Quran when they are in disagreement over anything. When there were disagreements among scholars in 2012 as to when people in the Arctic Circle should fast, according to the Quran's author, Muslims should have turned to the Quran and Sunnah for judgement. Yet neither Muhammad or the Quran's author came up with any advice for how Muslims living in the Arctic Circle in areas where the sun stays up for weeks on end, should fast.
They have advice for travelers, pregnant women, nursing women, menstruating women, the sick, and the elderly. They have advice for what Muslims are to do when the moon is covered, and for what they are to do when the Dajjal will appear. Yet there is no advice for Muslims living in lands where the sun does not come down.

islamispeace wrote:   Islam is a religion of practicality, which is more than I can say about some other religions.  Under extenuating circumstances, the teachings of the Quran must be taken into account: "Ramadhan is the (month) in which was sent down the Qur'an, as a guide to mankind, also clear (Signs) for guidance and judgment (Between right and wrong). So every one of you who is present (at his home) during that month should spend it in fasting, but if any one is ill, or on a journey, the prescribed period (Should be made up) by days later. Allah intends every facility for you; He does not want to put you to difficulties. (He wants you) to complete the prescribed period, and to glorify Him in that He has guided you; and perchance ye shall be grateful." (Surah Al-Baqarah, 2:185) "So fear Allah as much as ye can; listen and obey and spend in charity for the benefit of your own soul and those saved from the covetousness of their own souls,- they are the ones that achieve prosperity." (Surah At-Taghabun, 64:16)    Allah knows best!

2:185 is a reference to travelers and the sick. The tafsirs are very clear on that.

Tafsir Al Jalalayn

These days of, the month of Ramadān, wherein the Qur�ān was revealed, from the Preserved Tablet to the earthly heaven on the Night of Ordainment [laylat al-qadr] from Him, a guidance (hudan, �a guidance�, is a circumstantial qualifier), guiding away from error, for the people, and as clear proofs, lucid verses, of the Guidance, the rulings that guide to truth, and, of, the Criterion, that discriminates between truth and falsehood; So let those of you, who are present at the month, fast it and if any of you be sick, or if he be on a journey, then a number of other days (this [concession] has already been mentioned, but it is repeated here to avoid the mistaken impression that it has been abrogated by the comprehensive implication of man shahida, �who are present�). God desires ease for you, and desires not hardship for you, and for this reason He has permitted you the breaking of the fast during illness or travel, [this ease being] the very reason He has commanded you to fast; He supplements [the previous statement with]: and that you fulfil (read tukmilū or tukammilū) the number, of the fasting days of Ramadān, and magnify God, when you have completed them, for having guided you, for having directed you to the principal rites of His religion, and that you might be thankful, to God for this.

http://altafsir.com/Tafasir.asp?tMadhNo=0&tTafsirNo=74&tSoraNo=2&tAyahNo=185&tDisplay=yes&UserProfile=0&LanguageId=2

Tafsir Ibn Abbas

(The month of Ramadan is) the month in (which was revealed the Qur'an) whereupon Gabriel brought down the entire Qur'an to the first heaven, dictated it to the scribes among the angels (al-safarah) and then took it down to Muhammad (pbuh) day after day, sometimes revealing to him just one, two or three verses and sometimes an entire surah, (a guidance for mankind) the Qur'an elucidates error to people, (and clear proofs of the guidance) in the matter of Religion, (and the Criterion (of right and wrong)) the lawful and the unlawful, the legal rulings, legal punishments and the steering away from doubtful matters. (And whoever of you is present) in settled areas and not travelling, (let him fast the month. And whoever of you is sick) during the month of Ramadan (or on a journey, (let him fast the same) number of days) at another time. (Allah desireth for your ease) He desires for you the dispensation of breaking the fast while on a journey; it is also said that this means: Allah wants you to break the fast when travelling; (He desireth not hardship for you) He does not desire for you the hardship of fasting while travelling; (and (He desireth) that ye should complete the period) that you should fast when you are back in your settlement the same number of days of fast you broke during your travel, (and that ye should magnify Allah for having guided you) as He guided you to His religion and legal dispensation, (and that peradventure ye may be thankful) so that you be thankful for His giving you this dispensation.

http://altafsir.com/Tafasir.asp?tMadhNo=0&tTafsirNo=73&tSoraNo=2&tAyahNo=185&tDisplay=yes&UserProfile=0&LanguageId=2

(Allah intends for you ease, and He does not want to make things difficult for you. (He wants that you) must complete the same number (of days)) means: You were allowed to break the fast while ill, while traveling, and so forth, because Allah wanted to make matters easy for you. He only commanded you to make up for missed days so that you complete the days of one month.

http://www.qtafsir.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=251

I agree with you however that Allah does know best.

islamispeace wrote: You seem to be contradicting yourself.  First you say that "not every scenario need be specifically mentioned" but then you say "surely every possible scenario should be accounted for".  What's the difference?

The scholars were not "disagree[ing] with the Quran and the Hadith".  In fact, they specifically based their views on both, as we have seen already.

According to Muhammad, the fast ends when the sun sets.  Anyone who says they can break their fast while the sun is still above the horizon is contradicting Muhammad.

Finally, since you feel you are in a position to question who these scholars think they are "that they can amend the Quran...", it would be equally fair to ask who you think you are to question Islamic scholars for interpreting the Quran based on new and "unanticipated circumstances"?  You are not even a Muslim, so what difference does it make to you how Muslims interpret the rules of their religion with regard to fasting?

It makes no difference to me, but I think it ought to matter to you.  The Quran says to obey the Prophet (which IMHO is problematic in itself), but it says nothing about obeying "scholars".  It seems to me that Muslims have drifted into shirk, in so many ways.

Simply facing toward the earth would be sufficient.  It is a person's intentions which count, especially when control of the situation is out of the person's hands. By the way, Muslims have been participating in space travel already and have considered the issue of praying in space. http://muslimvillage.com/2012/02/16/19699/muslim-astronauts-miracle-call-to-prayer-in-space/ - http://muslimvillage.com/2012/02/16/19699/muslim-astronauts-miracle-call-to-prayer-in-space/

Of course there is.  Even though the sun does not rise/set, does not mean it does not have high and low points.  Those points can be calculated.

The high and low points would give you midday and midnight, not sunrise and sunset.  I don't see how that helps.

My point is that this situation did not even arise until quite recently.  Hence, it is a "rare situation".  Not only that, but if affects a very small number of people.

It seems to me that a religion that doesn't account for all situations, however rare, would by definition be imperfect.

Um, they have.  Why else do you think they didn't tell these people to fast continuously from sunrise to sunset, regardless of how long it was? Confused  It's an obvious health issue! Making up the fasts afterwards is also an option.  That is the point.  Islam provides a lot of flexibility, more so than many people are willing to admit.