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Original Sin?

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Category: Religion - Islam
Forum Name: Interfaith Dialogue
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Topic: Original Sin?
Posted By: Abu Loren
Subject: Original Sin?
Date Posted: 25 January 2014 at 5:09am
No such thing. If you read the Old Testament particularly Genesis where the story of the Adam and Eve is portrayed then you will not find The Lord Our God cursing Adam and Eve or their offspring until a blood atonement is given. Rather it was the chief charlatan and the self appointed apostle Paul who never met nor saw a vision of the risen Jesus (Alayhi Salaam ) that has alluded to this false tale. Of course this is a great injustice, and God does injustice to no one.

Imagine your father and mother committed a crime and they are incarcerated for their crime but on top of that all of their offspring are found guilty also and the descendants will all spent their lives in prison. Does that make sense to anyone? NO. The reason for that is because it is incomprehensible, even for a child.

I do not understand why the Christians find it so difficult to understand the concept of forgiveness. Adam and Eve sinned for sure but they were forgiven when they repented. What do you do when you sin? You fall down on your face and prostrate to Allah Subhana Wa Ta'ala and ask for forgiveness.
Simple. However, in our case we will only know if we were forgiven on the Day of Resurrection.

So Christians throw the concept of Original Sin out of the window and blame Paul for what he was.

Allah Subhana Wa Ta'ala says in the Qur'an that those who followed the misguides will follow them into hell fire and the misguides will be at the front leading them on. In Paul's case there will be a huge queue behind as there will be billions of people following him.

May Allah Subhana Wa Ta'ala have mercy on us all and grant us Jannatul Firdous and save us from Jahannam. Ameen.



Replies:
Posted By: White*Knight
Date Posted: 27 January 2014 at 8:33am
Peace and God's blessings be upon you

While I was reading the Old Testament, I wondered how the Christians believe in the Holy Trinity and the concept of "Original sin". Both of them do not exist in the Old Testament O.o

Thanks for posting that excellent thread :) Keep up xD


Posted By: Abu Loren
Date Posted: 29 January 2014 at 2:57am
Wa Alaikkum Asalaam

I'm very surprised that no Christian has jumped down my throat defending this. (From Paul's epistles, of course).


Posted By: Abu Loren
Date Posted: 10 February 2014 at 10:09am
Originally posted by Raytrek Raytrek wrote:

The story of Adam and Eve is really about the separation of humans from the animals; the distinguishing feature that sets humans apart from animals is the ability of concept, animals cannot attain conceptual understanding.

"They ate of the tree of the knowledge of good and bad" before they did not know disobeying God was bad, after they hide from him, before they had no sense of shame from nakedness, after they covered themselves, before they had no concept of death, after they did, before they had no concept of morality, after they did.

These are all traits of conceptual reason, and that the Bible says all of humanity inherited death from Adam, more the concept of time, knowing we will die is what we inherited, where as animals may have instinct for self preservation but they do not have the concept of mortal linear existence.

The knowledge of good and bad, as morals, ethics and virtues are a knowledge of good and bad, this is the fruit, the original sin, without eating of it there would not exist sin, sin is just a concept we thought up by human perspective of what we like and don't like, what we benefit from and not. In the act of establishing what we want and need versus what we do not want and do not need, we spawn fear and desire, fear of things we don't want or need, fear of losing what we do want and need, desire for things we decide are good, etc. In effect; our wants and needs become weakness that we are manipulated by and they spawn irrational behaviour.

In my opinion, that is the story of Adam and Eve.


Actually the story in the Bible about Adam and Eve are pretty close to the truth but there is doubt as to satan became a serpent to entice them and after eating from the tree the concept of original sin.

Sahih International

And We had already taken a promise from Adam before, but he forgot; and We found not in him determination.
And [mention] when We said to the angels, "Prostrate to Adam," and they prostrated, except Iblees; he refused.
So We said, "O Adam, indeed this is an enemy to you and to your wife. Then let him not remove you from Paradise so you would suffer.
Indeed, it is [promised] for you not to be hungry therein or be unclothed.
And indeed, you will not be thirsty therein or be hot from the sun."
Then Satan whispered to him; he said, "O Adam, shall I direct you to the tree of eternity and possession that will not deteriorate?"
And Adam and his wife ate of it, and their private parts became apparent to them, and they began to fasten over themselves from the leaves of Paradise. And Adam disobeyed his Lord and erred.
Then his Lord chose him and turned to him in forgiveness and guided [him].
20:115-122


Posted By: honeto
Date Posted: 11 February 2014 at 6:48pm

Christianity has to sell this concept of original sin so they can sell the concept of blood of Christ (they don't see this (the Blood) when they say "Prince of Peace"). They may be very good salespersons but their product is really bad without any sense or truth. In particular, when their own book states that: "The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, neither shall the children be put to death for the fathers: every man shall be put to death for his own sin" Deut 24:16
Hasan

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The friends of God will certainly have nothing to fear, nor will they be grieved. Al Quran 10:62



Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 22 April 2014 at 1:05pm
�There came unto me two men, clothed in white, with a gold basin full of snow. Then they laid upon me, and, splitting open my breast, they brought forth my heart. This likewise they split open and took from it a black clot which they cast away. Then they washed my heart and my breast with the snow� (Martin Lings, Muhammad: His Life, Based on the Earliest Sources, 1991). Muhammad then repeated the verse, found in the Hadith, �Satan toucheth every son of Adam the day his mother beareth him, save only Mary and her son.�

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Let us seek Truth together
Blessed be God forever
"I believe in Jesus as I believe in the sun... not because I see it, but because by it, I see everything else.: - C.S.Lewis


Posted By: islamispeace
Date Posted: 22 April 2014 at 3:54pm
Originally posted by Caringheart Caringheart wrote:

�There came unto me two men, clothed in white, with a gold basin full of snow. Then they laid upon me, and, splitting open my breast, they brought forth my heart. This likewise they split open and took from it a black clot which they cast away. Then they washed my heart and my breast with the snow� (Martin Lings, Muhammad: His Life, Based on the Earliest Sources, 1991). Muhammad then repeated the verse, found in the Hadith, �Satan toucheth every son of Adam the day his mother beareth him, save only Mary and her son.�


So, Caringheart decides to educate Muslims and change the subject instead of offering any sort of substantive rebuttal to the actual topic.  Why am I not surprised? 

Earth to Caringheart: Islam does not, repeat, DOES NOT teach the concept of original sin.  Rather, it teaches that all humans are born pure and free of sin.  The fact that Satan touches every baby does not mean that everyone is born with original sin.  After all, Satan only touches the baby after its birth! 

The Quran and Sunnah explicitly state that everyone is responsible for their own actions:

"Say: "Shall I seek for (my) Cherisher other than Allah, when He is the Cherisher of all things (that exist)? Every soul draws the meed of its acts on none but itself: no bearer of burdens can bear the burden of another. Your goal in the end is towards Allah: He will tell you the truth of the things wherein ye disputed."" (Surah Al-Anaam, 6:164) 

"
Abu Huraira reported Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) as saying: No child is born but upon fitra. He then said. Recite: The nature made by Allah in which He created man, there is no altering of Allah's nature; that is the right religion."� (Sahih Muslim)

Moral of the story: Original sin is just another belief invented by the church and Caringheart is living in a fantasy world.


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Say: "Truly, my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my life and my death, are (all) for Allah, the Cherisher of the Worlds. (Surat al-Anaam: 162)



Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 22 April 2014 at 4:59pm
As I study, I share.  Smile

Original sin simply means separation from God.  No human being can come into the presence of God because of the separation caused by the actions of the first creation... known as Adam and Eve.
Only by the shedding of the blood... the purification of the spirit through the shedding of the blood... can we once again come into the presence of the Creator.
The life is in the blood...

39 ... he that loseth his life for my sake shall find it. - the words of Yshwe(known as Messiah... i.e., Christ)



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Let us seek Truth together
Blessed be God forever
"I believe in Jesus as I believe in the sun... not because I see it, but because by it, I see everything else.: - C.S.Lewis


Posted By: islamispeace
Date Posted: 22 April 2014 at 7:16pm
Originally posted by Caringheart Caringheart wrote:

As I study, I share.  Smile

Original sin simply means separation from God.  No human being can come into the presence of God because of the separation caused by the actions of the first creation... known as Adam and Eve.
Only by the shedding of the blood... the purification of the spirit through the shedding of the blood... can we once again come into the presence of the Creator.
The life is in the blood...

39 ... he that loseth his life for my sake shall find it. - the words of Yshwe(known as Messiah... i.e., Christ)



No, as you "study", you expose your ignorance even more! Big%20smile

Original sin means that since Adam and Eve sinned, then all have sinned, even before they were born.  Don't try to muddy the water to protect yourself from the awful truth about the nonsense of original sin.  As brother Hasan showed, the very idea of original sin contradicts the Bible where it is clearly stated that the children will not be punished for the sins of their fathers and vice versa.  But that didn't stop Paul from inventing the idea of original sin and the church followed suit, ignoring common sense and the basic idea of justice and fairness which any true believer in God would have.  But no, you Christians want us to believe that God would be so petty as to:

1.  Hold us responsible for a sin we didn't even commit,

2.  Require a blood sacrifice for the expiation of that sin in order for Himself to allow the "sinners" into His presence, when He could just as easily forgive the truly penitent and bring them into His presence anyway.  But no, you want us to believe that God required a sacrifice from Himself to wash away the original sin that people never even committed so that they could come into His presence! 

Day-in an day-out, we see Christian logic being exposed for the nonsense and fraud that it is.  It is too bad that so many good, decent people believe this nonsense and want others to believe it to.  These are people, who otherwise, believe in a just and forgiving God.  Go figure... 



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Say: "Truly, my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my life and my death, are (all) for Allah, the Cherisher of the Worlds. (Surat al-Anaam: 162)



Posted By: Al Saadiqeen21
Date Posted: 24 April 2014 at 8:41am
Abu Loren I see you post lot's of ''Hadiyth '' without backing up your cliam with Scriptures . One would think if your going to Challenge Christians Teaching / Doctrine , You would use their Holy Book when Challengeing them ,
 
According The Westminister Dictionary of the Bible Sin Is ;
'' Any want or conformity unto , Or transgression of ( Any Law ) of the Creator , Given as a rule to the reasonable creature .... A Sin of omission is the neglest to do what the ( Law ) of the Creator commands ; A Sin of commission is the doing of ( Anything which it Forbids ) ''

In The American Heritage Dictionary , Sin is defined as ;
Sin ' ( SiN ) N.1 . A transgression of A Religious or Moral Law , Especially when deliberate . 2 . Theology . A . Deliberate disobedience to the know will of God . B . A condition of estrangemeant from God resulting from such disobedience . 3 . Something regared as being shameful , Deplorable , Or utterly wrong . See synonyms as Offense . .... Sin Intr .V. Sinned , Sin'Ning , Sins , 1 . To violate a Religious or Moral Law . 2 . To commit an offense or a violation [ Middle English Sinne , From Old English Synn. See Es -Below ]

And In The Comprehensive Etymological Dictionary The Definition As Sin Is As Follows ;
Sin , N ., Transgression . Me . Sinne . From Oe . Synn. Syn , Wrong -Doing , Injury , Hostility ; Sin , Rel . To Os Sunda , Mdu Sonde 9Du . Zoonde , Ohg . Sunt ( E ) A ( Mhg . G . Sunde ) These word seem to be early loan from french and lation . Sons . Gen . Sontis 'Guilty , Criminal '....

The word ''Sin '' Is not an english word . It is not in the english grammar . This word was grsfted into the english language from middle english Sinne , From old english Synn , Meaning '' Wrong -Doing '' , These words were borrowed from the French and Latin words Sons , Sontis . '' Meaning '' Guilty , Criminal . ''

The first time the word '' Sin '' is mentioned in the Bible is in ( Genesis 4 ; 5 - 7 ) when Cain and Abel sons of Kadmon ( Adam ) and Nekaybaw ( Eve ) were making an offering for the initiation into the Order Of Zodoq ( Genesis 4 ; 7 ) .

Genesis 4 ; 5 - 7 , Where It States ; But as for Cain's meal , Gabriy'el , Yahuwa had no respect for it , and he was not accepted into the order of Zodoq . It was not the best of his crop , this made Cain hot with anger , and it showed as his face fell into a frown , for he took no pleasure in the offering ( 6 ) . And Gabriy'el , Yahuwa said to Cain , What are you < Khawraw - aramic - Frowning for , and why are you angry ? ( 7 ) . If you would have done the right thing , and the best thing , then you wouldn't have a frown on your face ? For even if you still do the right thing , you will be approved and accepted into the Holy Order , but if you do that which is wrong then < Nana - aramic - the Evil One sends < Hamarteeh son of Apolia to wait kneeling like a snake for the availability of your soul as you pass from door to door in the Order of Sin , and welcomes you into the order of the amber light , fire , and you will become disagreeable itself by nature , not needing it to guide your wrong . < King James Version ( Hebrew -Greek ) Key Word Study Bible >

When Abel made his presentation to Yahuwa , He offered attributes from the ground , Fresh Vegetables , Fruits , Sweet scents from the musk deer . The firstling of his flock and the best that he had to offer with Respect and sincerity ( Genesis 4 ; 4 ) . Because able made a respectable and sincere offering , He was accepted into the Order of Zodoq . However , Cain offered A Rotten Ear of wheat stalk and it was not the Best that he had to offer ( Genesis 5 ; 5 ) Cain was more interested in the material things of the planet earth .

Thus , His offering was not Respected , Cain went off and started sulking and complaining . He was given the choice to repent . But by then it was too late . The Most High approved offerings that were sincere such as the one Abel made rather than offerings that are insincere such as the offering Cain made .

Genesis 4 ; 4 -5 , Where It States ; Abel also entered the presence of the Eloheem , in an attempt to be accepted in the order of Zodoq and presented a meal from the very best and healthiest of his flocks at the same initiation ceremony . But Cain behaved arrogantly and pushed him from before the altar . So Abel set up stones that were near at hand , offered up his gift , and cried to Elyown El to be accepted . Elyown El noticed his sincerity and how good the meal was prepared , accepted him as a child of the Eloheem and respected his pledge . He sent an Eloheem of light in the form of Gabriy'el Zodoq , Who is also Gabriy'el , Yahuwa and he partook of his offering . ( 5 ) . But as for Cain's meal , Gabriy'el , Yahuwa had no respect for it , and he was not accepted into the order of Zodoq . It was not the best of his crop , this made Cain hot with anger , and it showed as his face fell into a frown , for he took no pleasure in the offering . < King James Version ( Hebrew -Greek ) Key Word Study Bible >

Yahuwa said in Genesis 4 ; 7 , Where It States ; '' If Thou Doest Well , Shalt Thou Not Be Accept ? And If Thou Doest Not Well , SIN Lieth At The Door .... Who is Sin ? Sin is the Female Nanna , The Evil One who is called of Sin . Sin was waiting for him at the door like a snake , Cain had a choice to go into two Doors , The Door Of The Eoheeem or The Door of Sin .

The Aramic ( Hebrew ) word used for '' Sin '' In this quote is Chatta'ah - aramic - , And means '' Sin , Sinful '' And if you look in the Greek language you see the word Ham -Ar-Tee'ah and is defined as '' Sin , Sinful , Offense '' , This Hamartee'ah is the son of Sin , Naana and Apolia . She sends him to wait like a snake to bite you as you pass from Door to Door into The Order Of Sin .

The Eloheem told cain that he had a choice , Because he had '' Will '' self-determination and decision . They were asked about being initiated into the Order of Righteousness . The path of a Shaadiyd or a Shad - aramic - '' Demon '' . And Cain was rejected , Not accepted and his presentation was rejected and thus he chose to pass through the door of sin makeing him Disagreeable by nature . Now his ultimate initiation was killing Abels so that Cain could be a Sinner .

The Evil One '' Lays In Wait At The Door '' For man's soul in hopes that he can seduce him to Commit Sin . Cain's encounter with The Evil One ( Devil ) is a sign and a warning for man that The Evil One ( Devil ) and his hosts ( Jinn ) will do everything in their power to sway you from the right path .

Most Religious organization believe that the Greatest Sin is to associate another with their One God , or Vex your Father and Mother , Or to Murder your own Species , Or to Commit Suicide , or to tell a Lie . However , If you were Obedient and followed the Laws of your Scriptutres , Most Sins are puresued through being disobedient . When you Commin a Sin against your brother / sister , Do not expect to be pusished by someone committing that same Sin against you , Not for committing them .

According to Islam , To Sin is to disobey Allah's Most Glorified And Exalted Commands , And his Laws . Disobedience fall into two categories ; Sinning Knowingly and Sinning Unknowingly . In the Ashuric / Syraci ( Arabic ) language , ''Sin '' Is expressed by two word Khatiyatun - arabic - meaning ''Sin , Error Falt , A Wrong '' , and Zanbun - arabic - meaning '' Sin , A Crime .'' According when a man Commits A Sin unknowingly it is called Saghiyratun - arabic - or'' A Small Sin '' ( Literally , It Means '' A Smaal '' ) .

However , When a man Commits a Sin knowingly and Ignores it , is Kabiyratun - arabic - or '' A Large Or Great Sin '' . and literally it means '' A Large Or Great . Now -A -Days it is not an easy deed to live upright amongs Evil Forces , James 1 ; 12 , Where It States ; Blessed is the man that Endureth temptation for when he is tried . He shull received the crown of life , Which the master hath pormised to them that love him . < King James Version ( Hebrew -Greek ) Key Word Study Bible >

Matthew 5 ; 10 , Where It States ; Blessed are they which are persecuted for Righteousness 'Sake ; For theirs is the kingdom of orion . < King James Version ( Hebrew -Greek ) Key Word Study Bible >

Remember the trail of Job . Even the Eloheem spoke of him in ( Job 1 ; 1 ),as a perfect and upright Human Being , There is none like him in the earth ( Genesis 6 - 9 , James 5 ; 11 ) .

Job 1 ; 1 , Where It States ; There was a Man in the Land of Uz , whose name was Job ; and that man was Perfect and Upright and one that Fear God and Eschewed Evil . < King James Version ( Hebrew -Greek ) Key Word Study Bible >

Genesis 6 - 9 , Where It States ; These are the Generation of Noah ; Noah was a Just Man and Perfect in his Generation , and Noah walked with God . < King James Version ( Hebrew -Greek ) Key Word Study Bible >

James 5 ; 11 , Where It States ; Behold , we count them Happy Which Endure Ye have heard of the Patience of Job , and have seen the End of the Lord ; that the Lord is very pitful , and of tender mercy . < King James Version ( Hebrew -Greek ) Key Word Study Bible >

Yet , The Eloheem tried Job with destruction of all his wealth , The Death of all his Children , And the deterioration of his Health . Job was never once bitter for his life and not once did he curse the Eloheem . Most of you have not been tested as to your faith even to the point of Shedding Blood , Yet , Your complain that your life is so hard . The only reason why some human beings complain is because it is hard to get what they want . Some strive after wealth , Some would like only to be strong and Healthy ; others wish for fame and renown .

But the wise only apply their hearts to the Knowldge so that they might Understand the purpose of their lives before these dark days come . It has already been established that the fires of Hell will be kindled in Man's breath because man will be judged by his Sins . Not for them . The Sins that man Commit originates in his Heart Center as a result of him exercising Will . Men are Sinners because they have gone against the will of The Most High , Or against what they took his will to be , Or what they might have known his will to be . Sin is primarily a matter of the heart because The Most High judge man by his intentions . And once that intentions is carried out and becomes a Deed , It expresses a deeper Sin .
 
See how easzyyyyyyyyy that was !

 

 





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One doesn't go to school let His / her's mind to die , They go to school so that their mind will come alive .




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