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seed of David.

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Topic: seed of David.
Posted By: iec786
Subject: seed of David.
Date Posted: 28 September 2013 at 7:26am
Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh

Jesus was the seed{SPERM} of David according to the flesh FROM THE PRIVATE PART.Who is the father of Jesus?



Replies:
Posted By: iec786
Date Posted: 25 October 2013 at 10:52pm
The book of the generation of Jesus Christ, the son of David

Jesus himself began to be about thirty years of age, being the son of Joseph, which was the son of Heli,


she was found with child of the Holy Ghost.


The Bible is amazing!a man who was born with no father the Bible gives him three fathers.In your languge if a person has three fathers what wouldyou call him???

Then we read that he is given sixtysix grand and great grandfathers,in his genealogy when he has no father.Amazing book.

Pharez and Zerah are his grandfather's and these were the children of incest.When Jacob found Tamar his daughter in law by the way side and he Jacob went in unto her Tamar and she gave birth to these twins Pharez and Zerah and these children of incest now make up the grandparents of Jesus.

To recap, a man with no genealogy is given 66 grandfathers and great grandfathers.

A man with no father is given 3 fathers.

Then children of incest are his grand parents.

     


Posted By: Reepicheep
Date Posted: 26 October 2013 at 8:45am
Yes, Iec786, you are quite correct. According to the bible, Jesus is a descendant of David (i.e., He came from "the seed of David").



Posted By: iec786
Date Posted: 26 October 2013 at 10:26pm
If Jesus is from the seed of David meaning the,and supposed son of Joseph and the Son of the Holy Ghost and the Son of God then who is his father?????


Posted By: Reepicheep
Date Posted: 28 October 2013 at 9:03am
Iec786, if I understand you correctly: you are saying that you believe that Joseph is directly descended from David, but since Joseph is only the adoptive father of Jesus and not his actual physical father, then Jesus is in fact NOT from the Davidic line.

OK, let's assume for the sake of argument that you are correct and that Joseph adopting and raising Jesus as his own son does not establish Davidic ancestry for Jesus. What about Mary? Do you believe that it is possible that she is descended from David? And, if she is, doesn't that mean that Jesus too is descended from David?


Posted By: iec786
Date Posted: 28 October 2013 at 11:44am
Reepicheep,thanks for the response.I think you misunderstood what i am saying.

The Genealogy of Jesus the Messiah

1 This is the genealogy[a] of Jesus the Messiah the son of David,Matthew 1 (New International Version)

If you read this statement it says Jesus son of David.So David is the father of Jesus.

Luke 3:23-38
King James Version (KJV)
23 And Jesus himself began to be about thirty years of age, being the son of Joseph.

In this statement Jesus is the Son of Joseph.So Joseph is
his father.

New International Version
This is how the birth of Jesus the Messiah came about: His mother Mary was pledged to be married to Joseph, but before they came together, she was found to be pregnant through the Holy Spirit.Matthew 1:18

In this statement the Holy spirit is his father


Jesus has no father according to the Quran but the Bible gives him three fathers.



Posted By: Reepicheep
Date Posted: 29 October 2013 at 4:15pm
Iec786 wrote: If you read this statement it says Jesus son of David. So David is the father of Jesus

Actually, Matthew 1:1 reads "...the son of David, the son of Abraham". Is Matthew claiming that both David and Abraham are the biological fathers of Jesus??? Of course not. Matthew is using the expression "son of" to indicate that Jesus has both David and Abraham as ancestors.

As I already mentioned, Joseph is the adoptive father of Jesus.

Christians believe that the Holy Spirit is the actual, physical father of Jesus.

I trust this clears up any misconceptions you have about who Christians believe is the father of Jesus.


Posted By: iec786
Date Posted: 01 November 2013 at 12:21pm
Originally posted by Reepicheep Reepicheep wrote:

Iec786 wrote: If you read this statement it says Jesus son of David. So David is the father of Jesus

Actually, Matthew 1:1 reads "...the son of David, the son of Abraham". Is Matthew claiming that both David and Abraham are the biological fathers of Jesus??? Of course not. Matthew is using the expression "son of" to indicate that Jesus has both David and Abraham as ancestors.

As I already mentioned, Joseph is the adoptive father of Jesus.

Christians believe that the Holy Spirit is the actual, physical father of Jesus.

I trust this clears up any misconceptions you have about who Christians believe is the father of Jesus.




I cannot make it simpler.This is English.

genealogy[a> of Jesus the Messiah the son of David,

Matthew 1
New International Version (NIV)
The Genealogy of Jesus the Messiah

1 This is the genealogy[a] of Jesus the Messiah the son of David, the son of Abraham:

Jesus the Messiah the son of David.This is English.

David is his Father.

Remember that Jesus Christ of the seed of David King James Version (1611) 2 Timothy 2:8


Holy Spirit conceives Jesus. Matthew 1:20 ESV.
The Holy spirit is his father.

That makes 2 fathers in English what do you call a man with 2 fathers?????



Posted By: iec786
Date Posted: 01 November 2013 at 12:23pm
God ALMIGHTY has no role to play in this drama.


Posted By: Placid
Date Posted: 06 November 2013 at 12:11pm
Hi iec,

Sorry to be slow in getting around to this but this is quite easily understood:
Quote: Luke 3:23-38
King James Version (KJV)
23 And Jesus himself began to be about thirty years of age, being the son of Joseph.
In this statement Jesus is the Son of Joseph.So Joseph is his father.

Response: --- What you missed was the first Genealogy in Matthew, and then the full verse in Luke 3:23 KJV �Now Jesus Himself began His ministry at about thirty years of age, being (as was supposed) the son of Joseph, the son of Heli,

The Genealogy of Joseph is in Matthew 1:
1 The book of the genealogy of Jesus Christ, the Son of David, the Son of Abraham:
2 Abraham begot Isaac, Isaac begot Jacob, and Jacob begot Judah and his brothers. 3 Judah begot Perez and Zerah by Tamar, Perez begot Hezron, and Hezron begot Ram. 4 Ram begot Amminadab, Amminadab begot Nahshon, and Nahshon begot Salmon. 5 Salmon begot Boaz by Rahab, Boaz begot Obed by Ruth, Obed begot Jesse, 6 and Jesse begot David the king.
David the king begot Solomon by her who had been the wife[a] of Uriah. 7 Solomon begot Rehoboam, Rehoboam begot Abijah, and Abijah begot Asa. 8 Asa begot Jehoshaphat, Jehoshaphat begot Joram, and Joram begot Uzziah. 9 Uzziah begot Jotham, Jotham begot Ahaz, and Ahaz begot Hezekiah. 10 Hezekiah begot Manasseh, Manasseh begot Amon,[c] and Amon begot Josiah. 11 Josiah begot Jeconiah and his brothers about the time they were carried away to Babylon.
12 And after they were brought to Babylon, Jeconiah begot Shealtiel, and Shealtiel begot Zerubbabel. 13 Zerubbabel begot Abiud, Abiud begot Eliakim, and Eliakim begot Azor. 14 Azor begot Zadok, Zadok begot Achim, and Achim begot Eliud. 15 Eliud begot Eleazar, Eleazar begot Matthan, and Matthan begot Jacob.
16 And Jacob begot Joseph the husband of Mary, of whom was born Jesus who is called Christ.

--- Notice in verse 6, �David the King begat Solomon,� so Joseph, the husband of Mary was a descendant of King David through Solomon.

Both Joseph and Mary went to Bethlehem to be registered for the census, since they were both of the House of David. --- While they were there Jesus was born, and He was registered as the son of Joseph, because the lineage went through the Father.

--- So we see the lineage of Mary from Kind David through another son Nathan, verse 31, in Luke 3:
23 Now Jesus Himself began His ministry at about thirty years of age, being (as was supposed) the son of Joseph, the son of Heli, 24 the son of Matthat,[d] the son of Levi, the son of Melchi, the son of Janna, the son of Joseph, 25 the son of Mattathiah, the son of Amos, the son of Nahum, the son of Esli, the son of Naggai, 26 the son of Maath, the son of Mattathiah, the son of Semei, the son of Joseph, the son of Judah, 27 the son of Joannas, the son of Rhesa, the son of Zerubbabel, the son of Shealtiel, the son of Neri, 28 the son of Melchi, the son of Addi, the son of Cosam, the son of Elmodam, the son of Er, 29 the son of Jose, the son of Eliezer, the son of Jorim, the son of Matthat, the son of Levi, 30 the son of Simeon, the son of Judah, the son of Joseph, the son of Jonan, the son of Eliakim, 31 the son of Melea, the son of Menan, the son of Mattathah, the son of Nathan, the son of David, 32 the son of Jesse, the son of Obed, the son of Boaz, the son of Salmon, the son of Nahshon, 33 the son of Amminadab, the son of Ram, the son of Hezron, the son of Perez, the son of Judah, 34 the son of Jacob, the son of Isaac, the son of Abraham, the son of Terah, the son of Nahor, 35 the son of Serug, the son of Reu, the son of Peleg, the son of Eber, the son of Shelah, 36 the son of Cainan, the son of Arphaxad, the son of Shem, the son of Noah, the son of Lamech, 37 the son of Methuselah, the son of Enoch, the son of Jared, the son of Mahalalel, the son of Cainan, 38 the son of Enosh, the son of Seth, the son of Adam, the son of God.

--- So the, �Joseph the husband of Mary, of whom was born Jesus who is called Christ.� from Matthew, --- and the, �As was supposed� in verse 23, --- gives the understanding.
Joseph was again mentioned in Luke, but he was the Foster Father, and son (in law) to Mary�s father, Heli.

Placid


Posted By: iec786
Date Posted: 13 November 2013 at 9:08pm
Hi placid,
forgot to reply.,due to old age. [IMG]smileys/smiley36.gif" align="middle" />

you mentioned the genealogy of Joseph in    The Genealogy of Joseph is in Matthew 1: and the genealogy of Mary,the genealogy of Joseph.

I am talking of the genealogy of Jesus who had no genealogy.The Bible gave Jesus 66 grandfathers and great grandfathers to a man who had no genealogy.

The Bible does not say that the one genealogy is from Joseph and one is from Mary does it please show us where in the Bible does it show this is the genealogy of Mary????

From the 66 grandfathers and great grandfathers of Jesus the Bible Pharez and Zerah of Tamar who were the children of incest are the the great grand fathers of Jesus.Which means Jesus was born from incest,and you know if any child is born out of wedlock for ever they go to Hell.
Deuteronomy 23:2
King James Version (KJV)
2 A b astard shall not enter into the congregation of the Lord; even to his tenth generation shall he not enter into the congregation of the Lord.
Please explain.


Posted By: Placid
Date Posted: 20 November 2013 at 4:55am
Hi iec,

I am sure you have seen all of the verses that tell you that Jesus was conceived in Mary by the Holy Spirit.

--- But before you slander Jesus any more, perhaps you can trace the Genealogy of Mary through her Father as given in Surah 3:
35 Behold! The wife of 'Imran said: "O my Lord! I do dedicate unto Thee what is in my womb for Thy special service: So accept this of me: For Thou hearest and knowest all things."
36 When she was delivered, she said: "O my Lord! Behold! I am delivered of a female child!"�

--- It gives the name of Mary�s Father, �Imran, again in Surah 66:
12 And Mary the daughter of 'Imran, who guarded her chastity; and We breathed into (her body) of Our Spirit; and she testified to the truth of the words of her Lord and of His Revelations, and was one of the devout (servants).
--- (We (God) breathed into her body something of Our Spirit.)
It says the same in Surah 21:
91 And (remember) her who guarded her chastity: We (God) breathed into her of Our Spirit, and We made her and her son a Sign for all peoples.

And notice that it says Jesus was a SIGN FOR ALL PEOPLES, --- As it is written in Surah 3:
45 Behold! the angels said: "O Mary! God giveth thee glad tidings of a Word from Him: his name will be Christ Jesus, the son of Mary, held in honour in this world and the Hereafter and of (the company of) those nearest to God;
46 "He shall speak to the people in childhood and in maturity. And he shall be (of the company) of the righteous."
47 She said: "O my Lord! How shall I have a son when no man hath touched me?" He said: "Even so: God createth what He willeth: When He hath decreed a plan, He but saith to it, 'Be,' and it is!

--- So, you see, it was God who was the Father of Jesus, --- The Word with a capital W speaks of the creative power of God, �Be� and he is, V 45.
So Mary was impregnated by the Holy Spirit of God. --- And the Signs followed.
48 "And God will teach him the Book and Wisdom, the Law and the Gospel,
49 "And (appoint him) an apostle to the Children of Israel, (with this message): "'I have come to you, with a �Sign� from your Lord, in that I make for you out of clay, as it were, the figure of a bird, and breathe into it, and it becomes a bird by God's leave: And I heal those born blind, and the lepers, and I quicken the dead, by God's leave; and I declare to you what ye eat, and what ye store in your houses. Surely therein is a �Sign� for you if ye did believe;
50 "'(I have come to you), to attest the Law which was before me. And to make lawful to you part of what was (Before) forbidden to you; I have come to you with a �Sign� from your Lord. So fear God, and obey me.
51 "'It is God Who is my Lord and your Lord; then worship Him. This is a Way that is straight.'"
--- (It says Jesus was the Sign three times, plus every miracle was a Sign. --- Since it says he was a SIGN FOR ALL PEOPLES, --- does that include you?)

And as well as being a Sign to �A Way that is straight,� --- it says also:
55 Behold! God said: "O Jesus! I will take thee and raise thee to Myself and clear thee (of the falsehoods) of those who blaspheme; I will make those who follow thee superior to those who reject faith, to the Day of Resurrection:
55 Shakir: And when Allah said: O Isa, I am going to terminate the period of your stay (on earth) and cause you to ascend unto Me.
55 Sher Ali: Remember the time when ALLAH said' `O Jesus, I will cause thee to die a natural death and will raise thee to Myself, and will clear thee of the charges of those who disbelieve, and will exalt those who follow thee above those who disbelieve, until the Day of Resurrection;
--- (I understand that the Arabic words referred to physical death. --- This is why we can feel confident in believing these Signs from God.)

Placid


Posted By: iec786
Date Posted: 21 November 2013 at 9:23am
Hi Placid,

But before you slander Jesus any more,
This is not true please do not say that i have slandered any Prophet of God Almighty.Whatever i post is from the Bible.

Could you please point out any slander that you accuse me of????? this is serious.


Posted By: Placid
Date Posted: 22 November 2013 at 4:32am

Quote: From the 66 grandfathers and great grandfathers of Jesus the Bible Pharez and Zerah of Tamar who were the children of incest are the the great grand fathers of Jesus.Which means Jesus was born from incest,and you know if any child is born out of wedlock for ever they go to Hell.

Response: --- Mary was the daughter of �Imran and his wife, as it says in Surah 66:
12 And Mary the daughter of 'Imran, who guarded her chastity; and We breathed into (her body) of Our Spirit;
Mary was the child of two parents, --- any hint of incest in the case of Jesus is slander, is it not?


Posted By: iec786
Date Posted: 22 November 2013 at 8:07pm
Originally posted by Placid Placid wrote:


Quote: From the 66 grandfathers and great grandfathers of Jesus the Bible Pharez and Zerah of Tamar who were the children of incest are the the great grand fathers of Jesus.Which means Jesus was born from incest,and you know if any child is born out of wedlock for ever they go to Hell.

Response: --- Mary was the daughter of �Imran and his wife, as it says in Surah 66:
12 And Mary the daughter of 'Imran, who guarded her chastity; and We breathed into (her body) of Our Spirit;
Mary was the child of two parents, --- any hint of incest in the case of Jesus is slander, is it not?




Placid look at my quote it comes from your Bible.

The Genealogy of Jesus the Messiah

1 This is the genealogy[a] of Jesus the Messiah the son of David, the son of Abraham:

2 Abraham was the father of Isaac,
Isaac the father of Jacob,
Jacob the father of Judah and his brothers,
3 Judah the father of Perez and Zerahah, whose mother was Tamar


Bible study resource with story and themes. Tamar is childless. Her husband masturbates, so she seduces her father-in-law and is accused of promiscuity.From this incest relationship to B astard children were born these children of incest are in the genealogy of Jesus.

Genesis 38 (New International Version)


Genesis 38
New International Version (NIV)
Judah and Tamar

38 At that time, Judah left his brothers and went down to stay with a man of Adullam named Hirah. 2 There Judah met the daughter of a Canaanite man named Shua. He married her and made love to her; 3 she became pregnant and gave birth to a son, who was named Er. 4 She conceived again and gave birth to a son and named him Onan. 5 She gave birth to still another son and named him Shelah. It was at Kezib that she gave birth to him.

6 Judah got a wife for Er, his firstborn, and her name was Tamar. 7 But Er, Judah�s firstborn, was wicked in the Lord�s sight; so the Lord put him to death.

8 Then Judah said to Onan, �Sleep with your brother�s wife and fulfill your duty to her as a brother-in-law to raise up offspring for your brother.� 9 But Onan knew that the child would not be his; so whenever he slept with his brother�s wife, he spilled his semen on the ground to keep from providing offspring for his brother. 10 What he did was wicked in the Lord�s sight; so the Lord put him to death also.

11 Judah then said to his daughter-in-law Tamar, �Live as a widow in your father�s household until my son Shelah grows up.� For he thought, �He may die too, just like his brothers.� So Tamar went to live in her father�s household.

12 After a long time Judah�s wife, the daughter of Shua, died. When Judah had recovered from his grief, he went up to Timnah, to the men who were shearing his sheep, and his friend Hirah the Adullamite went with him.

13 When Tamar was told, �Your father-in-law is on his way to Timnah to shear his sheep,� 14 she took off her widow�s clothes, covered herself with a veil to disguise herself, and then sat down at the entrance to Enaim, which is on the road to Timnah. For she saw that, though Shelah had now grown up, she had not been given to him as his wife.

15 When Judah saw her, he thought she was a prostitute, for she had covered her face. 16 Not realizing that she was his daughter-in-law, he went over to her by the roadside and said, �Come now, let me sleep with you.�

�And what will you give me to sleep with you?� she asked.

17 �I�ll send you a young goat from my flock,� he said.

�Will you give me something as a pledge until you send it?� she asked.

18 He said, �What pledge should I give you?�

�Your seal and its cord, and the staff in your hand,� she answered. So he gave them to her and slept with her, and she became pregnant by him. 19 After she left, she took off her veil and put on her widow�s clothes again.

20 Meanwhile Judah sent the young goat by his friend the Adullamite in order to get his pledge back from the woman, but he did not find her. 21 He asked the men who lived there, �Where is the shrine prostitute who was beside the road at Enaim?�

�There hasn�t been any shrine prostitute here,� they said.

22 So he went back to Judah and said, �I didn�t find her. Besides, the men who lived there said, �There hasn�t been any shrine prostitute here.��

23 Then Judah said, �Let her keep what she has, or we will become a laughingstock. After all, I did send her this young goat, but you didn�t find her.�

24 About three months later Judah was told, �Your daughter-in-law Tamar is guilty of prostitution, and as a result she is now pregnant.�

Judah said, �Bring her out and have her burned to death!�

25 As she was being brought out, she sent a message to her father-in-law. �I am pregnant by the man who owns these,� she said. And she added, �See if you recognize whose seal and cord and staff these are.�

26 Judah recognized them and said, �She is more righteous than I, since I wouldn�t give her to my son Shelah.� And he did not sleep with her again.

27 When the time came for her to give birth, there were twin boys in her womb. 28 As she was giving birth, one of them put out his hand; so the midwife took a scarlet thread and tied it on his wrist and said, �This one came out first.� 29 But when he drew back his hand, his brother came out, and she said, �So this is how you have broken out!� And he was named Perez.[a] 30 Then his brother, who had the scarlet thread on his wrist, came out. And he was named Zerah.

According to your Bible that you hold in your hand it says:

(a) "The B ASTARD shall not enter the congregation of the Lord;
even to his tenth generation . . ." DEUTRONOMY 23:2

Everything that is posted here is not the words of Ismail please i am only quoting your Bible.

Ismail






Posted By: Placid
Date Posted: 25 November 2013 at 3:53am
Hi iec,

As I said above:
Mary was the daughter of �Imran and his wife as it says in Surah 66:
12 And Mary the daughter of 'Imran, who guarded her chastity; and We breathed into (her body) of Our Spirit;
Mary was the child of two parents,
Have you checked the Genealogy of Mary�s Father, �Imran?

Rather than quoting a lot of OT Scriptures to show the sins of people who needed to repent, --- why not go back a little further?

If you consider that Adam and Eve had sons and daughters, and the only way to produce more children was for brothers and sisters to produce them, so I guess you could blame God for starting the human race from incest.


Posted By: iec786
Date Posted: 02 December 2013 at 10:52am
Hi Placid,

You are a master dodger.

You cleverly avoided my post and put some silly thing of Mary in the Quran when we were discussing the genealogy of Jesus.

Pharez and Zarah which were the children of incest were the great grandparents of Jesus according to your Bible.


Posted By: Placid
Date Posted: 03 December 2013 at 12:41pm
In the genealogy of Jesus why don�t we go by the Quran which says that Mary was the daughter of �Imran and his wife. --- There was no incest, was there?.

Why don�t you follow their ancestry back to King David?


Posted By: iec786
Date Posted: 04 December 2013 at 10:06pm
Originally posted by Placid Placid wrote:

In the genealogy of Jesus why don�t we go by the Quran which says that Mary was the daughter of �Imran and his wife. --- There was no incest, was there?.

Why don�t you follow their ancestry back to King David?




Hi Placid,

Lol what happened to the biblical version??knocked the wind out of you.You are a Christian now admit the Quranic version makes more sense.
iec


Posted By: Placid
Date Posted: 09 December 2013 at 5:44am
Hi iec,

I had given you the Genealogy from Matthew which was of Joseph, And the Genealogy of Mary in Luke.
Luke was the Greek historian who "had perfect understanding from the beginning," --- so once it is presented it is accepted or rejected.

The descendants were always recorded from the male and Joseph was named as the father in the census in Bethlehem, in Matthew. and it says, - "Joseph the husband of Mary to whom was born Jesus who is called Christ." --- In Luke it says, "Jesus, (as was supposed) the son of Joseph, the son of Heli."

The (as was supposed) indicates that Jesus was not the biological son of Joseph, --- and a look at Matthew's Genealogy of Joseph says that "Mathan begat Jacob, and Jacob begat Joseph, the husband of Mary, of whom was born Jesus."
--- So the Genealogy in Luke is of Mary, and Joseph was Heli's 'son in law.' --- My son in law calls me Father all the time.

This is what gave rise to these verses in Surah 19:
27 At length she brought the (babe) to her people, carrying him (in her arms). They said: "O Mary! truly an amazing thing hast thou brought!
28 "O sister of Aaron! Thy father was not a man of evil, nor thy mother a woman unchaste!"
29 But she pointed to the babe. They said: "How can we talk to one who is a child in the cradle?"
30 He said: "I am indeed a servant of God: He hath given me revelation and made me a prophet;
31 "And He hath made me blessed wheresoever I be, and hath enjoined on me Prayer and Charity as long as I live;

--- Do you think there was any question about His origin when He spoke from the cradle?

But on the negative side notice this in Surah 4:
156 That they rejected Faith; that they uttered against Mary a grave false charge;

--- This speaks of the Jews who condemned Jesus before Pilate and the Romans took Jesus and had Him crucified,
At first the Jews boasted that 'they killed Him' but after He was Resurrected, they wanted to deny it.

157 That they said (in boast), "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Apostle of God"; - but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not.

--- The Jews did not kill Jesus, but they condemned Him. The Romans who carried out the crucifixion did not kill Him, but as you read in all four Gospels, when all prophecies were fulfilled concerning Him, he said, "It is finished," --- meaning 'God's plan of salvation was complete,' and 'He gave up His spirit.'

--- Jesus had to die, in order to be Resurrected, and the Power and victory over 'sin, Satan, and death,' was in the Resurrection.

If you don't want to believe it then you can pray for clarification from God.

Placid



Posted By: iec786
Date Posted: 12 December 2013 at 12:26pm
Originally posted by Placid Placid wrote:

Hi iec,

I had given you the Genealogy from Matthew which was of Joseph,Why was Joseph the father of Jesus??if not why the genealogy of Joseph?? And the Genealogy of Mary in Luke.
Luke was the Greek historian who "had perfect understanding from the beginning,"No he did not have perfect understanding.All he did was write an orderly account of what he heard. --- so once it is presented it is accepted or rejected.rejected.

The descendants were always recorded from the male and Joseph was named as the father in the census in Bethlehem,by who???God?? in Matthew. and it says, - "Joseph the husband of Mary to whom was born Jesus who is called Christ."where does it say and Joseph is the father of Jesus??? --- In Luke it says, "Jesus, (as was supposed)why the brackets,because they did not no. the son of Joseph, the son of Heli."

The (as was supposed) indicates that Jesus was not the biological son of Joseph,Then why his genealogy??? --- and a look at Matthew's Genealogy of Joseph says that "Mathan begat Jacob, and Jacob begat Joseph, the husband of Mary, of whom was born Jesus."not relevant.
--- So the Genealogy in Luke is of Mary,where does it say and this is the genealogy of Mary??? you just thumbsuck. and Joseph was Heli's 'son in law.' --- My son in law calls me Father all the time.not relevant.

This is what gave rise to these verses in Surah 19:
27 At length she brought the (babe) to her people, carrying him (in her arms). They said: "O Mary! truly an amazing thing hast thou brought!
28 "O sister of Aaron!Harun and not Aaron Thy father was not a man of evil, nor thy mother a woman unchaste!"
29 But she pointed to the babe. They said: "How can we talk to one who is a child in the cradle?"
30 He said: "I am indeed a servant of God: He hath given me revelation and made me a prophet;
31 "And He hath made me blessed wheresoever I be, and hath enjoined on me Prayer and Charity as long as I live;

--- Do you think there was any question about His origin when He spoke from the cradle?no no question.

But on the negative side notice this in Surah 4:
156 That they rejected Faith; that they uttered against Mary a grave false charge; The mischief makers and they knew the truth.hypocrites.

--- This speaks of the Jews who condemned Jesus before Pilate and the Romans took Jesus and had Him crucified,your opinion.
At first the Jews boasted that 'they killed Him' but after He was Resurrected, they wanted to deny it.

157 That they said (in boast), "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Apostle of God"; - but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not.

--- The Jews did not kill Jesus, but they condemned Him.We know they did not kill him. The Romans who carried out the crucifixion did not kill Him, but as you read in all four Gospels, when all prophecies were fulfilled concerning Him, he said, "It is finished," --- meaning 'God's plan of salvation was complete,' and 'He gave up His spirit.'That is according to the Bible.You know what is fascinating?at the time of the entire play it says that there was an earthquake and all his disciples forsook him and fled.60 miles an hough so who witnessed this fantastic storey because all means all in any language all forsook him and fled.

--- Jesus had to die, in order to be Resurrected,
Just as people are destined to die once, and after that to face judgment, and the Power and victory over 'sin, Satan, and death,' was in the Resurrection.New International Version
Just as people are destined to die once, and after that to face judgment,
If you die once it is over till judgment day period.


If you don't want to believe it then you can pray for clarification from God.

Placid



Posted By: Placid
Date Posted: 16 December 2013 at 3:56pm
Hi iec,

Questons on the Seed of David:
** 1 Why was Joseph the father of Jesus?? if not why the genealogy of Joseph??

Response: Joseph was engaged to Mary. This is how it is written in Matthew 1:
18 Now the birth of Jesus Christ was as follows: After His mother Mary was betrothed to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Spirit.
19 Then Joseph her husband, being a just man, and not wanting to make her a public example, was minded to put her away secretly.
20 But while he thought about these things, behold, an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream, saying, �Joseph, son of David, do not be afraid to take to you Mary your wife, for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Spirit.
21 And she will bring forth a Son, and you shall call His name Jesus, for He will save His people from their sins.�
24 Then Joseph, did as the angel of the Lord commanded him and took to him his wife,
25 and did not know her till she had brought forth her firstborn Son. And he called His name Jesus.
--- (So it was by God�s arrangement that Joseph was a descendant of King David through Solomon, and that he became the foster father of Jesus.)

** 2 And the Genealogy of Mary in Luke, shows that she descended from King David through another son, Nathan. Luke was the Greek historian who "had perfect understanding from the beginning,"
(And you said, �No he did not have perfect understanding.�)
--- But a historian writes as things happen, and he would have known Joseph and Mary and would get information from them about the Birth of Jesus in Bethlehem.

--- Notice, he said in Luke 1:
1 �Inasmuch as �MANY� have taken in hand to set in order a narrative of those things which have been �FULFILLED� among us,
2 just as those who from the beginning were eyewitnesses and ministers of the word delivered them to us,
3 it seemed good to me also, having had perfect understanding of all things from the very first.
--- (He would have been an �eye witness� himself and lived with the �eye witnesses� in Jerusalem --- and would have access to �ALL� that was written. --- He also wrote an intro in his Book of Acts and later joined Paul on his missionary journeys, --- and then they went to Rome together.)

** 3 Joseph was named as the father in the census in Bethlehem, by who???God??

Response: --- It gives the info in Luke 2:
1 And it came to pass in those days that a decree went out from Caesar Augustus that all the world should be registered.
2 This census first took place while Quirinius was governing Syria.
3 So all went to be registered, everyone to his own city.
4 Joseph also went up from Galilee, out of the city of Nazareth, into Judea, to the city of David, which is called Bethlehem, because he was of the house and lineage of David,
5 to be registered with Mary, his wife, who was with child.
6 So it was, that while they were there, the days were completed for her to be delivered.
7 And she brought forth her firstborn Son, and wrapped Him in swaddling cloths, and laid Him in a manger, because there was no room for them in the inn.
--- (So it was the census by the Roman Government that would record Joseph as the father of Jesus, because the lineage was taken through the father.
--- So Jesus was recorded as the Son of Joseph, the carpenter.)

Placid


Posted By: iec786
Date Posted: 19 December 2013 at 10:18am
16 �I, Jesus, have sent my angel to give you[a] this testimony for the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, and the bright Morning Star.�


Posted By: iec786
Date Posted: 16 February 2014 at 12:43pm
Hi Placid,

who was the father of Jesus?????


Posted By: Lachi
Date Posted: 26 February 2014 at 1:44pm
Jesus can both have a mortal and a spiritual father. Take the example of Solomon, who was both the son of David and the son of God. In 2 Samuel 7:12- the prophet Nathan delivers the words of God to King David;
�When your days are fulfilled and you rest with your fathers, I will set up your seed after you, who will come from your body, and I will establish his kingdom. He shall build a house for My name, and I will establish the throne of his kingdom forever. I will be his Father, and he shall be My son. If he commits iniquity, I will chasten him with the rod of men and with the blows of the sons of men. But My mercy shall not depart from him, as I took it from Saul, whom I removed from before you. And your house and your kingdom shall be established forever before you. Your throne shall be established forever.�

David repeats these words to his son Solomon in 1 Chronicles 22:6-10;
Then he called for his son Solomon, and charged him to build a house for the Lord God of Israel. And David said to Solomon: �My son, as for me, it was in my mind to build a house to the name of the Lord my God; but the word of the Lord came to me, saying, �You have shed much blood and have made great wars; you shall not build a house for My name, because you have shed much blood on the earth in My sight. Behold, a son shall be born to you, who shall be a man of rest; and I will give him rest from all his enemies all around. His name shall be Solomon, for I will give peace and quietness to Israel in his days. He shall build a house for My name, and he shall be My son, and I will be his Father; and I will establish the throne of his kingdom over Israel forever.�

Solomon was therefore the son of David, but also the son of God.


A man can also be given two mortal fathers. Throughout the history books of Kings and Chronicles in the Bible the Kings of Judah are called 'son of David' regardless of who their immediate father was.
For example 2 Kings 16:1-2
In the seventeenth year of Pekah the son of Remaliah, Ahaz the son of Jotham, king of Judah, began to reign. Ahaz was twenty years old when he became king, and he reigned sixteen years in Jerusalem; and he did not do what was right in the sight of the Lord his God, as his father David had done.
And again in 2 Kings 18:1-3;
Now it came to pass in the third year of Hoshea the son of Elah, king of Israel, that Hezekiah the son of Ahaz, king of Judah, began to reign. He was twenty-five years old when he became king, and he reigned twenty-nine years in Jerusalem. His mother�s name was Abia the daughter of Zechariah. And he did what was right in the sight of the Lord, according to all that his father David had done.

Thus Jesus can have two mortal fathers - David & Joseph, and also be the son of God.


Posted By: Lachi
Date Posted: 26 February 2014 at 2:31pm
Was the relationship between Tamar and Judah incestuous? Tamar according to Genesis Chapter 38 had not consummated her marriages, and she was the widow of Judah's sons, not their wife.

The verse in Deuteronomy 23:2 cannot be applied to the descendants of Perez and Zerah. The ten generations from them included Nahshon, prince of the tribe of Judah, who represented his tribe in the congregation of Israel as commanded by God to Moses;
Numbers 1:1-16
And the Lord spake unto Moses in the wilderness of Sinai, in the tabernacle of the congregation, on the first day of the second month, in the second year after they were come out of the land of Egypt, saying, Take ye the sum of all the congregation of the children of Israel, after their families, by the house of their fathers, with the number of their names, every male by their polls; From twenty years old and upward, all that are able to go forth to war in Israel: thou and Aaron shall number them by their armies. And with you there shall be a man of every tribe; every one head of the house of his fathers. And these are the names of the men that shall stand with you: of the tribe of Reuben; Elizur the son of Shedeur. Of Simeon; Shelumiel the son of Zurishaddai. Of Judah; Nahshon the son of Amminadab. Of Issachar; Nethaneel the son of Zuar. Of Zebulun; Eliab the son of Helon. Of the children of Joseph: of Ephraim; Elishama the son of Ammihud: of Manasseh; Gamaliel the son of Pedahzur. Of Benjamin; Abidan the son of Gideoni. Of Dan; Ahiezer the son of Ammishaddai. Of Asher; Pagiel the son of Ocran. Of Gad; Eliasaph the son of Deuel. Of Naphtali; Ahira the son of Enan. These were the renowned of the congregation, princes of the tribes of their fathers, heads of thousands in Israel.

It also included King David, who was raised up and anointed by God.


Posted By: iec786
Date Posted: 26 February 2014 at 9:42pm
Originally posted by Lachi Lachi wrote:

Jesus can both have a mortal and a spiritual father. Take the example of Solomon, who was both the son of David and the son of God. In 2 Samuel 7:12- the prophet Nathan delivers the words of God to King David;
�When your days are fulfilled and you rest with your fathers, I will set up your seed after you, who will come from your body, and I will establish his kingdom. He shall build a house for My name, and I will establish the throne of his kingdom forever. I will be his Father, and he shall be My son. If he commits iniquity, I will chasten him with the rod of men and with the blows of the sons of men. But My mercy shall not depart from him, as I took it from Saul, whom I removed from before you. And your house and your kingdom shall be established forever before you. Your throne shall be established forever.�

David repeats these words to his son Solomon in 1 Chronicles 22:6-10;
Then he called for his son Solomon, and charged him to build a house for the Lord God of Israel. And David said to Solomon: �My son, as for me, it was in my mind to build a house to the name of the Lord my God; but the word of the Lord came to me, saying, �You have shed much blood and have made great wars; you shall not build a house for My name, because you have shed much blood on the earth in My sight. Behold, a son shall be born to you, who shall be a man of rest; and I will give him rest from all his enemies all around. His name shall be Solomon, for I will give peace and quietness to Israel in his days. He shall build a house for My name, and he shall be My son, and I will be his Father; and I will establish the throne of his kingdom over Israel forever.�

Solomon was therefore the son of David, but also the son of God.


A man can also be given two mortal fathers. Throughout the history books of Kings and Chronicles in the Bible the Kings of Judah are called 'son of David' regardless of who their immediate father was.
For example 2 Kings 16:1-2
In the seventeenth year of Pekah the son of Remaliah, Ahaz the son of Jotham, king of Judah, began to reign. Ahaz was twenty years old when he became king, and he reigned sixteen years in Jerusalem; and he did not do what was right in the sight of the Lord his God, as his father David had done.
And again in 2 Kings 18:1-3;
Now it came to pass in the third year of Hoshea the son of Elah, king of Israel, that Hezekiah the son of Ahaz, king of Judah, began to reign. He was twenty-five years old when he became king, and he reigned twenty-nine years in Jerusalem. His mother�s name was Abia the daughter of Zechariah. And he did what was right in the sight of the Lord, according to all that his father David had done.

Thus Jesus can have two mortal fathers - David & Joseph, and also be the son of God.




Did Jesus have a father????? or was he born without a father????was his mother a virgin or was he born of intercourse??? that should answer your question.


Posted By: iec786
Date Posted: 26 February 2014 at 9:52pm
Originally posted by Lachi Lachi wrote:

Was the relationship between Tamar and Judah incestuous? Tamar according to Genesis Chapter 38 had not consummated her marriages, and she was the widow of Judah's sons, not their wife.

The verse in Deuteronomy 23:2 cannot be applied to the descendants of Perez and Zerah. The ten generations from them included Nahshon, prince of the tribe of Judah, who represented his tribe in the congregation of Israel as commanded by God to Moses;
Numbers 1:1-16
And the Lord spake unto Moses in the wilderness of Sinai, in the tabernacle of the congregation, on the first day of the second month, in the second year after they were come out of the land of Egypt, saying, Take ye the sum of all the congregation of the children of Israel, after their families, by the house of their fathers, with the number of their names, every male by their polls; From twenty years old and upward, all that are able to go forth to war in Israel: thou and Aaron shall number them by their armies. And with you there shall be a man of every tribe; every one head of the house of his fathers. And these are the names of the men that shall stand with you: of the tribe of Reuben; Elizur the son of Shedeur. Of Simeon; Shelumiel the son of Zurishaddai. Of Judah; Nahshon the son of Amminadab. Of Issachar; Nethaneel the son of Zuar. Of Zebulun; Eliab the son of Helon. Of the children of Joseph: of Ephraim; Elishama the son of Ammihud: of Manasseh; Gamaliel the son of Pedahzur. Of Benjamin; Abidan the son of Gideoni. Of Dan; Ahiezer the son of Ammishaddai. Of Asher; Pagiel the son of Ocran. Of Gad; Eliasaph the son of Deuel. Of Naphtali; Ahira the son of Enan. These were the renowned of the congregation, princes of the tribes of their fathers, heads of thousands in Israel.

It also included King David, who was raised up and anointed by God.



You see you are a gentile you do not know of Jewish folk law.If the old brother dies then the next brother takes his wife and goes in unto her his brothers wife.Then when the second brother dies then the third brother takes his wife and goes into her meaning he has sexual intercourse with her.So if one brother dies the next brother would take the first brothers wife and so on.Who says so???? Your Bible that you hold in your hand says so.
Genesis 38 (New International Version)
6 Judah got a wife for Er, his firstborn, and her name was Tamar. 7 But Er, Judah�s firstborn, was wicked in the Lord�s sight; so the Lord put him to death.

8 Then Judah said to Onan, �Sleep with your brother�s wife and fulfill your duty to her as a brother-in-law to raise up offspring for your brother.� 9 But Onan knew that the child would not be his; so whenever he slept with his brother�s wife, he spilled his semen on the ground to keep from providing offspring for his brother. 10 What he did was wicked in the Lord�s sight; so the Lord put him to death also.

11 Judah then said to his daughter-in-law Tamar, �Live as a widow in your father�s household until my son Shelah grows up.� For he thought, �He may die too, just like his brothers.� So Tamar went to live in her father�s household.


12 After a long time Judah�s wife, the daughter of Shua, died. When Judah had recovered from his grief, he went up to Timnah, to the men who were shearing his sheep, and his friend Hirah the Adullamite went with him.

13 When Tamar was told, �Your father-in-law is on his way to Timnah to shear his sheep,� 14 she took off her widow�s clothes, covered herself with a veil to disguise herself, and then sat down at the entrance to Enaim, which is on the road to Timnah. For she saw that, though Shelah had now grown up, she had not been given to him as his wife.

15 When Judah saw her, he thought she was a prostitute, for she had covered her face. 16 Not realizing that she was his daughter-in-law, he went over to her by the roadside and said, �Come now, let me sleep with you.�

�And what will you give me to sleep with you?� she asked.

17 �I�ll send you a young goat from my flock,� he said.

�Will you give me something as a pledge until you send it?� she asked.

18 He said, �What pledge should I give you?�

�Your seal and its cord, and the staff in your hand,� she answered. So he gave them to her and slept with her, and she became pregnant by him. 19 After she left, she took off her veil and put on her widow�s clothes again.

20 Meanwhile Judah sent the young goat by his friend the Adullamite in order to get his pledge back from the woman, but he did not find her. 21 He asked the men who lived there, �Where is the shrine prostitute who was beside the road at Enaim?�

�There hasn�t been any shrine prostitute here,� they said.

22 So he went back to Judah and said, �I didn�t find her. Besides, the men who lived there said, �There hasn�t been any shrine prostitute here.��

23 Then Judah said, �Let her keep what she has, or we will become a laughingstock. After all, I did send her this young goat, but you didn�t find her.�

24 About three months later Judah was told, �Your daughter-in-law Tamar is guilty of prostitution, and as a result she is now pregnant.�

Judah said, �Bring her out and have her burned to death!�

25 As she was being brought out, she sent a message to her father-in-law. �I am pregnant by the man who owns these,� she said. And she added, �See if you recognize whose seal and cord and staff these are.�

26 Judah recognized them and said, �She is more righteous than I, since I wouldn�t give her to my son Shelah.� And he did not sleep with her again.

27 When the time came for her to give birth, there were twin boys in her womb. 28 As she was giving birth, one of them put out his hand; so the midwife took a scarlet thread and tied it on his wrist and said, �This one came out first.� 29 But when he drew back his hand, his brother came out, and she said, �So this is how you have broken out!� And he was named Perez.[a> 30 Then his brother, who had the scarlet thread on his wrist, came out. And he was named Zerah.


This my boy is called incest.



Posted By: Lachi
Date Posted: 20 March 2014 at 8:29pm
iec786 please note these verses that you quote;

Genesis 38 (New International Version)

11 Judah then said to his daughter-in-law Tamar, �Live as a widow in your father�s household until my son Shelah grows up.� For he thought, �He may die too, just like his brothers.� So Tamar went to live in her father�s household.

14 she [Tamar] took off her widow�s clothes, covered herself with a veil to disguise herself, and then sat down at the entrance to Enaim, which is on the road to Timnah. For she saw that, though Shelah had now grown up, she had not been given to him as his wife. 15 When Judah saw her, he thought she was a prostitute, for she had covered her face.

24 About three months later Judah was told, �Your daughter-in-law Tamar is guilty of prostitution, and as a result she is now pregnant.� Judah said, �Bring her out and have her burned to death!� As she was being brought out, she sent a message to her father-in-law. �I am pregnant by the man who owns these,� she said. And she added, �See if you recognize whose seal and cord and staff these are.� 26 Judah recognized them and said, �She is more righteous than I, since I wouldn�t give her to my son Shelah.� And he did not sleep with her again.

Tamar is not the wife of Judah's sons, she is a widow and not even living in Judah's household. She is not the wife of Shelah, despite what the custom might have been. Nowhere in any Law of God does it prohibit a woman having sex with her male-in-laws after her husband has died. A wife is prohibited, but not a widow.
Hence it is not lawful for a man to sleep with his brother's wife:
Leviticus 18:16 You shall not uncover the nakedness of your brother's wife; it is your brother's nakedness. & Leviticus 20:21 If a man takes his brother's wife, it is impurity. He has uncovered his brother's nakedness; they shall be childless.
But a man is allowed to sleep with his brother's widow:
Deuteronomy 25:5 �If brothers dwell together, and one of them dies and has no son, the wife of the dead man shall not be married outside the family to a stranger. Her husband's brother shall go in to her and take her as his wife and perform the duty of a husband's brother to her.

Tamar was therefore not committing incest, because she was a widow and not married to any of Judah's sons.


However the argument from Mosaic Law is pointless when attached to those who lived before the Mosaic Law was declared by God.

Abraham married his father's daughter;
Genesis 20:12 Besides, she [Sarai] is indeed my [Abram's] sister, the daughter of my father though not the daughter of my mother, and she became my wife.
PROHIBITED - Leviticus 18:9, You shall not uncover the nakedness of your sister, your father's daughter or your mother's daughter, whether brought up in the family or in another home.

Jacob married two sisters;
Genesis 29: 21-30 Then Jacob said to Laban, �Give me my wife that I may go in to her, for my time is completed.� So Laban gathered together all the people of the place and made a feast. But in the evening he took his daughter Leah and brought her to Jacob, and he went in to her. Laban gave his female servant Zilpah to his daughter Leah to be her servant. And in the morning, behold, it was Leah! And Jacob said to Laban, �What is this you have done to me? Did I not serve with you for Rachel? Why then have you deceived me?� Laban said, �It is not so done in our country, to give the younger before the firstborn. Complete the week of this one, and we will give you the other also in return for serving me another seven years.� Jacob did so, and completed her week. Then Laban gave him his daughter Rachel to be his wife. Laban gave his female servant Bilhah to his daughter Rachel to be her servant. So Jacob went in to Rachel also, and he loved Rachel more than Leah, and served Laban for another seven years.
PROHIBITED - Leviticus 18:18 And you shall not take a woman as a rival wife to her sister, uncovering her nakedness while her sister is still alive.

Amram married his father's sister;
Exodus 6:20 Amram took as his wife Jochebed his father's sister, and she bore him Aaron and Moses, the years of the life of Amram being 137 years.
PROHIBITED - Leviticus 18:12, You shall not uncover the nakedness of your father's sister; she is your father's relative.

All these relationships are prohibited under Mosaic Law, yet these couples were not punished. In fact they were honoured with blessed offspring (Isaac, Joseph, Moses, etc), and their descendants to the tenth generation (which included Moses and Aaron) were not prohibited from the congregation of the Lord. The same goes for Judah and Tamar.



Posted By: Lachi
Date Posted: 20 March 2014 at 8:46pm
Originally posted by iec786 iec786 wrote:

Did Jesus have a father????? or was he born without a father????was his mother a virgin or was he born of intercourse??? that should answer your question.


My post was attempting to show how Jesus, like Solomon and the Kings of Israel, could be given multiple fathers in the language of Scripture.

According to Christian belief Jesus was born from a virgin through the actions of the Holy Spirit. He was the Son of God (by spirit), a son of Joseph (by law) and the son of David (by descent).

Modern rationality would dispense with the son of a virgin notion, but can still maintain that he was the Son of God (as was Solomon) and be the son of Joseph (by blood), and son of David (by descent - as were the kings of Israel).


Posted By: Al Saadiqeen21
Date Posted: 22 March 2014 at 6:49am
The real question here should be , How did Mary have a male child without a Man , Without all the spook-ism !!!

-------------
One doesn't go to school let His / her's mind to die , They go to school so that their mind will come alive .



Posted By: Lachi
Date Posted: 23 March 2014 at 4:41pm
Originally posted by Al Saadiqeen21 Al Saadiqeen21 wrote:

The real question here should be , How did Mary have a male child without a Man , Without all the spook-ism !!!


Christianity and Islam both believe that spook-ism is part of the deal.


Posted By: Al Saadiqeen21
Date Posted: 24 March 2014 at 4:22am
Originally posted by Lachi Lachi wrote:

Originally posted by Al Saadiqeen21 Al Saadiqeen21 wrote:

The real question here should be , How did Mary have a male child without a Man , Without all the spook-ism !!!


Christianity and Islam both believe that spook-ism is part of the deal.
 
 
And what does that have to do with my question Nothing !  Maybe you should think before you post anything , Ever thought about that , No you didn't !!!!!
 
 
 


-------------
One doesn't go to school let His / her's mind to die , They go to school so that their mind will come alive .



Posted By: iec786
Date Posted: 27 March 2014 at 11:34pm
Originally posted by Lachi Lachi wrote:

Originally posted by iec786 iec786 wrote:

Did Jesus have a father????? or was he born without a father????was his mother a virgin or was he born of intercourse??? that should answer your question.


My post was attempting to show how Jesus, like Solomon and the Kings of Israel, could be given multiple fathers in the language of Scripture.

According to Christian belief Jesus was born from a virgin through the actions of the Holy Spirit. He was the Son of God (by spirit), a son of Joseph (by law) and the son of David (by descent).

Modern rationality would dispense with the son of a virgin notion, but can still maintain that he was the Son of God (as was Solomon) and be the son of Joseph (by blood), and son of David (by descent - as were the kings of Israel).




Using your rationality we can safely say that Jesus is not the only son of God in fact he is no son of God.


Posted By: Lachi
Date Posted: 07 April 2014 at 5:02pm
Jesus as the Son of God and the son of David is being portrayed as the new Solomon - the child of an adulterous woman; the man with divine given wisdom; the King of the Jews who built the new Temple.

As the son of Joseph the son of Jacob, he is portrayed as the the new Joshua (Yehoshua = Jesus) the son of Nun (descendant of Joseph) - the man who came from Egypt; the successor to Moses; the leader of men into a the promised land.

Jesus/Joshua the son of Nun - 'Nun' is a letter of the Hebrew alphabet which in itself is a symbol of King David.

Jesus' parentage has so many symbolic interpretations. Such is the teachings given to us by the Gospel writers.



Posted By: iec786
Date Posted: 10 April 2014 at 9:18am
Originally posted by Lachi Lachi wrote:

Jesus as the Son of God and the son of David is being portrayed as the new Solomon - the child of an adulterous woman; the man with divine given wisdom; the King of the Jews who built the new Temple.

As the son of Joseph the son of Jacob, he is portrayed as the the new Joshua (Yehoshua = Jesus) the son of Nun (descendant of Joseph) - the man who came from Egypt; the successor to Moses; the leader of men into a the promised land.

Jesus/Joshua the son of Nun - 'Nun' is a letter of the Hebrew alphabet which in itself is a symbol of King David.

Jesus' parentage has so many symbolic interpretations. Such is the teachings given to us by the Gospel writers.






From your rational let us take Jesus the son of David,the son of God.Look at the background,Pharez and Zarah were the great grand parents of Jesus,and they were the children incest here explain.


Posted By: Lachi
Date Posted: 20 April 2014 at 4:53pm
Originally posted by iec786 iec786 wrote:

From your rational let us take Jesus the son of David,the son of God.Look at the background,Pharez and Zarah were the great grand parents of Jesus,and they were the children incest here explain.


iec786, I can do no more than repeat my earlier posts on the incest question. You might have missed them. It is quite clear that Tamar was not committing incest, and that the Laws revealed to Moses regarding prohibited sex can not be backdated to before those Laws were revealed.;

"Genesis 38 (New International Version)

11 Judah then said to his daughter-in-law Tamar, �Live as a widow in your father�s household until my son Shelah grows up.� For he thought, �He may die too, just like his brothers.� So Tamar went to live in her father�s household.

14 she [Tamar] took off her widow�s clothes, covered herself with a veil to disguise herself, and then sat down at the entrance to Enaim, which is on the road to Timnah. For she saw that, though Shelah had now grown up, she had not been given to him as his wife. 15 When Judah saw her, he thought she was a prostitute, for she had covered her face.

24 About three months later Judah was told, �Your daughter-in-law Tamar is guilty of prostitution, and as a result she is now pregnant.� Judah said, �Bring her out and have her burned to death!� As she was being brought out, she sent a message to her father-in-law. �I am pregnant by the man who owns these,� she said. And she added, �See if you recognize whose seal and cord and staff these are.� 26 Judah recognized them and said, �She is more righteous than I, since I wouldn�t give her to my son Shelah.� And he did not sleep with her again.

Tamar is not the wife of Judah's sons, she is a widow and not even living in Judah's household. She is not the wife of Shelah, despite what the custom might have been. Nowhere in any Law of God does it prohibit a woman having sex with her male-in-laws after her husband has died. A wife is prohibited, but not a widow.
Hence it is not lawful for a man to sleep with his brother's wife:
Leviticus 18:16 You shall not uncover the nakedness of your brother's wife; it is your brother's nakedness. & Leviticus 20:21 If a man takes his brother's wife, it is impurity. He has uncovered his brother's nakedness; they shall be childless.
But a man is allowed to sleep with his brother's widow:
Deuteronomy 25:5 �If brothers dwell together, and one of them dies and has no son, the wife of the dead man shall not be married outside the family to a stranger. Her husband's brother shall go in to her and take her as his wife and perform the duty of a husband's brother to her.

Tamar was therefore not committing incest, because she was a widow and not married to any of Judah's sons.


However the argument from Mosaic Law is pointless when attached to those who lived before the Mosaic Law was declared by God.

Abraham married his father's daughter;
Genesis 20:12 Besides, she [Sarai] is indeed my [Abram's] sister, the daughter of my father though not the daughter of my mother, and she became my wife.
PROHIBITED - Leviticus 18:9, You shall not uncover the nakedness of your sister, your father's daughter or your mother's daughter, whether brought up in the family or in another home.

Jacob married two sisters;
Genesis 29: 21-30 Then Jacob said to Laban, �Give me my wife that I may go in to her, for my time is completed.� So Laban gathered together all the people of the place and made a feast. But in the evening he took his daughter Leah and brought her to Jacob, and he went in to her. Laban gave his female servant Zilpah to his daughter Leah to be her servant. And in the morning, behold, it was Leah! And Jacob said to Laban, �What is this you have done to me? Did I not serve with you for Rachel? Why then have you deceived me?� Laban said, �It is not so done in our country, to give the younger before the firstborn. Complete the week of this one, and we will give you the other also in return for serving me another seven years.� Jacob did so, and completed her week. Then Laban gave him his daughter Rachel to be his wife. Laban gave his female servant Bilhah to his daughter Rachel to be her servant. So Jacob went in to Rachel also, and he loved Rachel more than Leah, and served Laban for another seven years.
PROHIBITED - Leviticus 18:18 And you shall not take a woman as a rival wife to her sister, uncovering her nakedness while her sister is still alive.

Amram married his father's sister;
Exodus 6:20 Amram took as his wife Jochebed his father's sister, and she bore him Aaron and Moses, the years of the life of Amram being 137 years.
PROHIBITED - Leviticus 18:12, You shall not uncover the nakedness of your father's sister; she is your father's relative.

All these relationships are prohibited under Mosaic Law, yet these couples were not punished. In fact they were honoured with blessed offspring (Isaac, Joseph, Moses, etc), and their descendants to the tenth generation (which included Moses and Aaron) were not prohibited from the congregation of the Lord. The same goes for Judah and Tamar."

Furthermore;

"The verse in Deuteronomy 23:2 cannot be applied to the descendants of Perez and Zerah. The ten generations from them included Nahshon, prince of the tribe of Judah, who represented his tribe in the congregation of Israel as commanded by God to Moses;
Numbers 1:1-16
And the Lord spake unto Moses in the wilderness of Sinai, in the tabernacle of the congregation, on the first day of the second month, in the second year after they were come out of the land of Egypt, saying, Take ye the sum of all the congregation of the children of Israel, after their families, by the house of their fathers, with the number of their names, every male by their polls; From twenty years old and upward, all that are able to go forth to war in Israel: thou and Aaron shall number them by their armies. And with you there shall be a man of every tribe; every one head of the house of his fathers. And these are the names of the men that shall stand with you: of the tribe of Reuben; Elizur the son of Shedeur. Of Simeon; Shelumiel the son of Zurishaddai. Of Judah; Nahshon the son of Amminadab. Of Issachar; Nethaneel the son of Zuar. Of Zebulun; Eliab the son of Helon. Of the children of Joseph: of Ephraim; Elishama the son of Ammihud: of Manasseh; Gamaliel the son of Pedahzur. Of Benjamin; Abidan the son of Gideoni. Of Dan; Ahiezer the son of Ammishaddai. Of Asher; Pagiel the son of Ocran. Of Gad; Eliasaph the son of Deuel. Of Naphtali; Ahira the son of Enan. These were the renowned of the congregation, princes of the tribes of their fathers, heads of thousands in Israel.

It also included King David, who was raised up and anointed by God"


Posted By: iec786
Date Posted: 07 May 2014 at 4:34am
If someone sleeps with their father in law while waiting for the other son is called what ???



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