Bukhari hadiths #431 and #30
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Topic: Bukhari hadiths #431 and #30
Posted By: TG12345
Subject: Bukhari hadiths #431 and #30
Date Posted: 08 August 2013 at 9:22pm
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Assalamu Alaikum,
I have been reading a bit through Muhammad's teachings as recorded in the Sahih Bukhari hadiths, and came across two that I see as contradictory. I am wondering how Muslims would explain this. (7) Narrated 'Utban bin Malik Al-Ansari: who was one of the men of the tribe of Bani Salim: Allah's Apostle came to me and said, "If anybody comes on the Day of Resurrection who has said: La ilaha illal-lah, sincerely, with the intention to win Allah's Pleasure, Allah will make the hell-Fire forbidden for him." (Book #76, Hadith #431) http://www.searchtruth.com/searchHadith.php?keyword=hell+forbidden&translator=1&search=1&book=&start=0&records_display=10&search_word=all - http://www.searchtruth.com/searchHadith.php?keyword=hell+forbidden&translato... (1) Narrated Al-Ahnaf bin Qais: While I was going to help this man ('Ali Ibn Abi Talib), Abu Bakra met me and asked, "Where are you going?" I replied, "I am going to help that person." He said, "Go back for I have heard Allah's Apostle saying, 'When two muslims fight (meet) each other with their swords, both the murderer as well as the murdered will go to the Hell-fire.' I said, 'O Allah's Apostle! It is all right for the murderer but what about the murdered one?' Allah's Apostle replied, "He surely had the intention to kill his companion." (Book #2, Hadith #30) http://www.searchtruth.com/searchHadith.php?keyword=muslim+fight&translator=1&search=1&book=&start=0&records_display=10&search_word=all - http://www.searchtruth.com/searchHadith.php?keyword=muslim+fight&translator=... Muhammad stated that all who say " La ilaha illal-lah", or, "there is no god but God", sincerely, will have hellfire denied to them. Of course, saying " La ilaha illal-lah" is part of the shahadah, "La ilaha illal-lah Muhammadur rasul Allah", or "There is no god but God and Muhammad is the Messenger of God". http://www.islamtomorrow.com/shahadah.asp One cannot become a Muslim without saying it, and it must be said sincerely, otherwise it does not count. Muhammad stated that God will forbid the hell-fire for those who say the shahada. Since every Muslim has said the shahada, this would mean that God will deny hellfire for every Muslim. Yet, Muhammad also said that when 2 Muslims fight with swords, both the killer and the killed will go to hell. So on one hand, Muhammad said that those who say the shahada sincerely (every Muslim) will have hell-fire denied to him or her... yet on the other, he said that there will be Muslims who will go to hell. I see a clear contradiction here. Contradicting oneself is a purely human thing. I've done it, I'm sure everyone has at some point. Yet if Muhammad was getting his information about hell from God, then it couldn't be contradictory since God does not contradict Himself. If he was getting it from some other source, than clearly he was not God's prophet, and was talking about Him and the afterlife without consulting Him. I believe Muhammad did many good and honourable things. He opposed infant sacrifices. He showed mercy to his enemies at times. He spoke out against polytheism and atheism. But he was not a prophet of God. Examples like the one above, as well as mistakes in the Quran, show us that Islam is not from God. What are your thoughts on this? Blessed be the Name of the Lord. |
Replies:
Posted By: islamispeace
Date Posted: 09 August 2013 at 12:20pm
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There is no contradiction here. Two Muslims who try to kill each other have become apostates. Apostates do not go to Paradise, even if they previously stated the Shahadah with sincerity. The reason is simple. The act of apostasy negates everything that was done previously, unless before their deaths, they sincerely repented (in which case, it is left to Allah to decide their fate). In the same way, becoming a Muslim and stating the Shahadah negates everything that one may have done beforehand. So, when Muslims kill each other, they are no longer Muslims but unbelievers. There is no contradiction. If we use your logic, then the Bible contradicts itself on this issue as well. According to Paul: "If you declare with your mouth, �Jesus is Lord,� and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved." (Roman 10:9-10) But, in the Gospel of Matthew, Jesus (pbuh) is alleged to have said: "Many will say to me on that day, �Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?� 23 Then I will tell them plainly, �I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!�" (Matthew 7:22-23) Whereas Paul claimed that anyone who sincerely believes that Jesus is "God" and rose from the dead will be saved, Matthew quotes Jesus himself as saying that there will be some people who will come to him on the Day of Judgment thinking they were believers, but who will be rejected by him due to some obvious flaw in their faith. Is this a contradiction? Or, does it mean that just because someone sincerely believed at one point but then at a later point became an apostate or a hypocrite, does not mean that he will be saved? Does the act of disbelief negate a previous act of belief and vice-versa? I think this is not a contradiction. There are many examples where the Bible contradicts itself, but this is not one of them. The moral is that even if you believe sincerely at one point, that does not guarantee that you will be saved even if you did something later which makes you a hypocrite or unbeliever. The same moral is seen in the two hadiths above. ------------- Say: "Truly, my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my life and my death, are (all) for Allah, the Cherisher of the Worlds. (Surat al-Anaam: 162) |
Posted By: TG12345
Date Posted: 09 August 2013 at 3:28pm
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Assalamu Alaikum, islamispeace. It is great to hear from you again. 
Thank you for the response. Can you please show me proof from the Quran or hadiths that killing another Muslim makes one an apostate? 4:93 states that whoever kills a believer (fellow Muslim) intentionally, will enter hell and abide there forever. But whoever kills a believer intentionally - his recompense is Hell, wherein he will abide eternally, and Allah has become angry with him and has cursed him and has prepared for him a great punishment. However, I am not aware of evidence that killing another Muslim is actually an act of disbelief, even if it warrants eternal punishment. I read on IslamQA what would qualify as apostasy from Islam, and killing fellow Muslims is not one of them. Apostasy (riddah) and going out of Islam are things that may be done in the heart, on the tongue or in one's actions. Apostasy may take place in the heart, such as disbelieving in Allaah, or believing that there is another creator alongside Allaah, or hating Allaah or His Messenger (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him). Apostasy may take the form of words spoken on the tongue, such as defaming Allaah or the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him). Or apostasy may take the form of outward physical actions, such as prostrating to an idol, mistreating the Mus-haf, or not praying.http://www.islamqa.info/en/14231 However, I found a hadith in Bukhari, in which Muhammad said that killing a fellow Muslim is an act of kufr, and I know that Islam teaches that whoever dies in a state of unbelief, goes to hell for eternity. Christianity teaches the same thing, it is one of the things Muslims and Christians agree on. (4) Narrated 'Abdullah: The Prophet said, "Abusing a muslim is Fusuq (an evil doing) and killing him is Kufr (disbelief)." Narrated 'Ubada bin As-Samit: "Allah's Apostle went out to inform the people about the (date of the) night of decree (Al-Qadr) but there happened a quarrel between two muslim men. The Prophet said, "I came out to inform you about (the date of) the night of Al-Qadr, but as so and so and so and so quarrelled, its knowledge was taken away (I forgot it) and maybe it was better for you. Now look for it in the 7th, the 9th and the 5th (of the last 10 nights of the month of Ramadan)." (Book http://www.searchtruth.com/book_display.php?book=2&translator=1&start=0&number=46 - #2 , Hadith http://www.searchtruth.com/book_display.php?book=2&translator=1&start=0&number=46#46 - #46 ) http://www.searchtruth.com/searchHadith.php?keyword=kill+muslim&translator=1&search=1&book=&start=0&records_display=10&search_word=all Hadith #46 of Bukhari's collection would not contradict #431, however, what about #532? It discusses very clearly the fate of Muslims who were disobedient. It states that some of them will be thrown in hell, and depending on how little faith and good works they did, their bodies will be burnt in varying intensity. However, everyone of these Muslims had said "there is no god but God" sincerely (otherwise they couldn't have became Muslims), and they died believers. According to Muhammad, those who said "there is no god but God" sincerely would have Hellfire denied to them. Yet God will allegedly throw those of them who were disobedient into Hell for a while. (2) Narrated Abu Sa'id Al-Khudri: We said, "O Allah's Apostle! Shall we see our Lord on the Day of Resurrection?" He said, "Do you have any difficulty in seeing the sun and the moon when the sky is clear?" We said, "No." He said, "So you will have no difficulty in seeing your Lord on that Day as you have no difficulty in seeing the sun and the moon (in a clear sky)." The Prophet then said, "Somebody will then announce, 'Let every nation follow what they used to worship.' So the companions of the cross will go with their cross, and the idolators (will go) with their idols, and the companions of every god (false deities) (will go) with their god, till there remain those who used to worship Allah, both the obedient ones and the mischievous ones, and some of the people of the Scripture. Then Hell will be presented to them as if it were a mirage. Then it will be said to the jews, "What did you use to worship?' They will reply, 'We used to worship ezra, the son of Allah.' It will be said to them, 'You are liars, for Allah has neither a wife nor a son. What do you want (now)?' They will reply, 'We want You to provide us with water.' Then it will be said to them 'Drink,' and they will fall down in Hell (instead). Then it will be said to the Christians, 'What did you use to worship?' They will reply, 'We used to worship Messiah, the son of Allah.' It will be said, 'You are liars, for Allah has neither a wife nor a son. What: do you want (now)?' They will say, 'We want You to provide us with water.' It will be said to them, 'Drink,' and they will fall down in Hell (instead). When there remain only those who used to worship Allah (Alone), both the obedient ones and the mischievous ones, it will be said to them, 'What keeps you here when all the people have gone?' They will say, 'We parted with them (in the world) when we were in greater need of them than we are today, we heard the call of one proclaiming, 'Let every nation follow what they used to worship,' and now we are waiting for our Lord.' Then the Almighty will come to them in a shape other than the one which they saw the first time, and He will say, 'I am your Lord,' and they will say, 'You are not our Lord.' And none will speak: to Him then but the Prophets, and then it will be said to them, 'Do you know any sign by which you can recognize Him?' They will say. 'The Shin,' and so Allah will then uncover His Shin whereupon every believer will prostrate before Him and there will remain those who used to prostrate before Him just for showing off and for gaining good reputation. These people will try to prostrate but their backs will be rigid like one piece of a wood (and they will not be able to prostrate). Then the bridge will be laid across Hell." We, the companions of the Prophet said, "O Allah's Apostle! What is the bridge?' He said, "It is a slippery (bridge) on which there are clamps and (Hooks like) a thorny seed that is wide at one side and narrow at the other and has thorns with bent ends. Such a thorny seed is found in Najd and is called As-Sa'dan. Some of the believers will cross the bridge as quickly as the wink of an eye, some others as quick as lightning, a strong wind, fast horses or she-camels. So some will be safe without any harm; some will be safe after receiving some scratches, and some will fall down into Hell (Fire). The last person will cross by being dragged (over the bridge)." The Prophet said, "You (Muslims) cannot be more pressing in claiming from me a right that has been clearly proved to be yours than the believers in interceding with Almighty for their (Muslim) brothers on that Day, when they see themselves safe. They will say, 'O Allah! (Save) our brothers (for they) used to pray with us, fast with us and also do good deeds with us.' Allah will say, 'Go and take out (of Hell) anyone in whose heart you find faith equal to the weight of one (gold) Dinar.' Allah will forbid the Fire to burn the faces of those sinners. They will go to them and find some of them in Hell (Fire) up to their feet, and some up to the middle of their legs. So they will take out those whom they will recognize and then they will return, and Allah will say (to them), 'Go and take out (of Hell) anyone in whose heart you find faith equal to the weight of one half Dinar.' They will take out whomever they will recognize and return, and then Allah will say, 'Go and take out (of Hell) anyone in whose heart you find faith equal to the weight of an atom (or a smallest ant), and so they will take out all those whom they will recognize." Abu Sa'id said: If you do not believe me then read the Holy Verse:-- 'Surely! Allah wrongs not even of the weight of an atom (or a smallest ant) but if there is any good (done) He doubles it.' (4.40) The Prophet added, "Then the prophets and Angels and the believers will intercede, and (last of all) the Almighty (Allah) will say, 'Now remains My Intercession. He will then hold a handful of the Fire from which He will take out some people whose bodies have been burnt, and they will be thrown into a river at the entrance of Paradise, called the water of life. They will grow on its banks, as a seed carried by the torrent grows. You have noticed how it grows beside a rock or beside a tree, and how the side facing the sun is usually green while the side facing the shade is white. Those people will come out (of the River of Life) like pearls, and they will have (golden) necklaces, and then they will enter Paradise whereupon the people of Paradise will say, 'These are the people emancipated by the Beneficent. He has admitted them into Paradise without them having done any good deeds and without sending forth any good (for themselves).' Then it will be said to them, 'For you is what you have seen and its equivalent as well.'" (Book http://www.searchtruth.com/book_display.php?book=93&translator=1&start=0&number=532s - #93 , Hadith http://www.searchtruth.com/book_display.php?book=93&translator=1&start=0&number=532s#532s - #532s )
You are correct, there is no contradiction. In Matthew 7:22-23, nowhere is it stated that the people who did various things in the name of Jesus believed in their hearts that He was raised from the dead. Also, nowhere is it stated that they referred to Him as Lord on earth. There isn't really a contradiction here. Also, as a sidenote, there is more to believing in Jesus than believing only that God raised Him from the dead. Faith also includes works, as is written in the Book of James. I agree with you that choosing to apostasy makes one's faith void, those who fall away are not saved, if they ever were to begin with. The hadith I originally cited, #46, does not contradict #431. I was wrong on this. My apologies for that mistake to you, and everyone else reading. Thank you for correcting my error. However, #532 speaks of believers... believers who took the shahada and died being believers... still going to hell. How would you explain that? BTW if there are other Muslims who would like to respond, I would love to hear from you. Thank you NABA and nothing so far for your input on other topics, please feel free to jump into this discussion. Allahma3k. Blessed be the Name of the Lord. |
islamispeace wrote:Posted By: nothing
Date Posted: 10 August 2013 at 8:12am
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Although I don't do hadiths I only can say that being a believer has obligations that not just for professing but manifest in the daily life. One month fasting is not just abstain from food but also refraining the self from anger, lust, hate. In the biblical term Jesus was tempted by the devil, it was just fasting for 40 days, refraining the self from the flesh constant demand. Islam creates bond between humans to be compassionate to one another. It teaches the different people to be together. The hajj is one awesome method in pooling different people in the same place, to be together. If there are still people who hate each other among fellow believers - than their professing belief most likely are not real. Just the way I see it. |
Posted By: TG12345
Date Posted: 10 August 2013 at 8:37am
Salaam Alaikum, nothing. Fasting is definitely a great thing, and it is important to love one's neighbours. Christians are also not allowed to hate other believers, or even non-Christians. However, the hadith I brought up specifically mentions believers being thrown into- and then taken out of- hell. It contradicts the previous one where Muhammad stated that all who say the first part of the shahadah will have hell-fire denied to them. May I ask why you don't "do hadiths"? Are you a Muslim? Thanks and God bless. TG12345 |
Posted By: islamispeace
Date Posted: 10 August 2013 at 2:51pm
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Hadith #532 has to do with the temporary punishment the believers will face for any sins they did not repent for or were not forgiven. Through the intercession of Muhammad (pbuh), they will be brought out of Hell after serving their time, however long Allah (swt) willed that was to be. This also does not contradict the hadith #431 because merely saying the Shahadah does not excuse a Muslim from his/her other religious duties, such as prayer, fasting and charity. There is a similar hadith in Sahih Muslim which clarifies this point: "It is reported on the authority of Anas b. Malik that the Prophet of Allah (may peace and blessings be upon him) addressed Mu'adh b. Jabal as he was riding behind him to which he replied: At thy beck and call, and at thy pleasure, Messenger of Allah. He again called out: Mu'adh, to which he (again) replied: At thy beck and call, and at thy pleasure. He (the Holy Prophet) addressed him (again): Mu'adh, to which he replied: At thy beck and call, and at thy pleasure, Messenger of Allah. Upon this he (the Holy Prophet) observed: If anyone testifies (sincerely from his heart) that there is no god but Allah, and that Muhammad is His bondsman and His messenger, Allah immuned him from hell. He (Mu'adh) said: Messenger of Allah, should I not then inform people of it, so that they may be of good cheer? He replied: Then they would trust in it alone. Mu'adh told about it at the time of his death, to avoid sinning." (Book http://www.searchtruth.com/book_display.php?book=001&translator=2&start=0&number=0051 - #001 , Hadith http://www.searchtruth.com/book_display.php?book=001&translator=2&start=0&number=0051#0051 - #0051 ) So, this hadith clarifies the one in Sahih Bukhari that just saying the Shahadah would guarantee Paradise, but it would not exempt a Muslim from all other responsibilities that is required of him/her. The newer Muslims in the time of the Prophet could have misinterpreted this hadith and thought that they did not need to do anything else. In fact, when the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) told this to Mu'adh (the narrator of this hadith), he asked him to not tell the people just yet. Hence, Mu'adh waited until he was on his deathbed to do. As Abdul Hamid Siddiqi states in his translation of Sahih Muslim: "Affirmation in the oneness of God, without associating anything with Him, is certainly the golden rule to enter heavens [Paradise], but it entails heavy responsibility which the new converts could not fully appreciate and understand at that stage." (Volume 1, p. 25) Therefore, there is no contradiction. Saying the Shahadah sincerely will guarantee Paradise, but without good deeds or an overabundance of bad deeds, there may be temporary punishment in Hell, if Allah (swt) wills it. Allah (swt) knows best. ------------- Say: "Truly, my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my life and my death, are (all) for Allah, the Cherisher of the Worlds. (Surat al-Anaam: 162) |
Posted By: TG12345
Date Posted: 10 August 2013 at 3:16pm
Assalamu Alaikum, Islamispeace. Thank you for sharing the hadith, and I agree with you, Islam does not teach that saying the shahadah will mean that a person will not enter hell temporarily for sins committed if s/he was a Muslim, or eternally if s/he died outside of the faith. However, hadith #431 does not say that a Muslim who says shahadah sincerely (and dies in that state of faith) will merely enter heaven... it states that hellfire will be forbidden to that person. (7) Narrated 'Utban bin Malik Al-Ansari: who was one of the men of the tribe of Bani Salim: Allah's Apostle came to me and said, "If anybody comes on the Day of Resurrection who has said: La ilaha illal-lah, sincerely, with the intention to win Allah's Pleasure, Allah will make the hell-Fire forbidden for him." (Book #76, Hadith #431) I'm really not trying to be rude or insulting, but if God says He will make hell-fire forbidden for someone on the Day of Resurrection, how would he or she be able to get past Him and enter it? If in Hadith #431, Muhammad stated that those who say the first part of the shahadah with sincerity will enter Paradise, we wouldn't be having this discussion. However, he stated that God will make hell-fire forbidden for them. Yet as you earlier pointed out, there will be some Muslims who will enter hell and burned by the fire. Allah knows best. Blessed be His holy Name. |
Posted By: islamispeace
Date Posted: 11 August 2013 at 11:32am
You have completely ignored the hadith from Sahih Muslim which clarifies the point. Why do you think the Prophet went out of his way to say: "Then they would trust in it alone"? The implication is that accepting the Shahadah carries with it the duties and responsibilities that are mentioned in the Quran and Sunnah, such as prayer, fasting and charity. Neglecting these duties or thinking that they are not required would be tantamount to apostasy. For example, the Prophet said that neglecting the daily prayers was a form of kufr. Therefore, just stating the Shahadah would not be enough. The Prophet did not want people to take his statement literally that saying the Shahadah sincerely was enough to go to Paradise. They still had to carry out the duties that are required of every Muslim. As Muslims, we follow the teachings of Muhammad (pbuh), who was himself taught by Allah (swt) through the angel Gabriel (as). Muhammad (pbuh) clearly implied that stating the Shahadah was not enough, by his statement "...they would trust in it alone." Therefore, your argument that there is a contradiction based solely on your reliance on hadith #532, while ignoring other hadiths which clarify the point, is erroneous. Your claims are easily outweighed by the teachings of Muhammad (pbuh). ------------- Say: "Truly, my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my life and my death, are (all) for Allah, the Cherisher of the Worlds. (Surat al-Anaam: 162) |
Posted By: TG12345
Date Posted: 11 August 2013 at 1:53pm
Assalamu Alaikum Islamispeace, I have read the hadith, but it does not say that those who say the shahadah sincerely and are Muslims but still do not live out their faith will go to hell for a while. Muhammad said ": If anyone testifies (sincerely from his heart) that there is no god but Allah, and that Muhammad is His bondsman and His messenger, Allah immuned him from hell. " Mu'adh wanted to tell this to the people so they could be of good cheer, but Muhammad told him not to, so people wouldn't trust in it alone. He said nothing about hellfire, except that if someone said the shahadah, he or she would be immune from hell. Not going to hell does not mean one will escape punishment from God. As a Christian, I am saved in Christ but I don't go around sinning. Even if my faith means I will avoid hell, it does not mean that I will not be punished for my sins at the end of my life by God. We will all face judgement, and even Christians who will not wind up in hell will still be punished for the wrong things we did. "It is reported on the authority of Anas b. Malik that the Prophet of Allah (may peace and blessings be upon him) addressed Mu'adh b. Jabal as he was riding behind him to which he replied: At thy beck and call, and at thy pleasure, Messenger of Allah. He again called out: Mu'adh, to which he (again) replied: At thy beck and call, and at thy pleasure. He (the Holy Prophet) addressed him (again): Mu'adh, to which he replied: At thy beck and call, and at thy pleasure, Messenger of Allah. Upon this he (the Holy Prophet) observed: If anyone testifies (sincerely from his heart) that there is no god but Allah, and that Muhammad is His bondsman and His messenger, Allah immuned him from hell. He (Mu'adh) said: Messenger of Allah, should I not then inform people of it, so that they may be of good cheer? He replied: Then they would trust in it alone. Mu'adh told about it at the time of his death, to avoid sinning." (Book http://www.searchtruth.com/book_display.php?book=001&translator=2&start=0&number=0051 - #001 , Hadith http://www.searchtruth.com/book_display.php?book=001&translator=2&start=0&number=0051#0051 - #0051 ) On one hand, Muhammad said that those who say the shahadah will be immune from hellfire, and that God will forbid it for them. This includes every Muslim on the planet, sinful or less sinful. On the other hand, he stated that the sinful Muslims will go to hell for a time. So either the shahadah does not in fact mean that anyone who says it and believes it and dies a Muslim will avoid hellfire, or Muslims will not enter hell- since everyone who is a Muslim has said the Shahadah. I am afraid that the contradiction still remains. Allah Akhbar! |
Posted By: islamispeace
Date Posted: 11 August 2013 at 2:25pm
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You are "afraid that the contradiction still remains" because you want there to be a contradiction. Fortunately, there is no contradiction as I already showed. Since the hadith narrated by Mu'adh states plainly that people should not rely only on accepting the Shahadah as a gateway to Paradise and also says that they should avoid sins, the implication is that a Muslim needs to do everything that God requires. Neglecting the requirements means that your "acceptance" of the Shahadah is not sincere. This was all stated in the same hadith where he said that hell would be forbidden to the one who says the Shahadah sincerely! Obviously, Muhammad (pbuh) would not have contradicted himself just 10 seconds after saying it. Therefore, the meaning is not as you see it. As I said, we follow the Prophet and he clearly taught what I have shown. If you had done a little better research, you would have realized the facts. Look at it this way. You were "sure" there was a contradiction between #431 and #30, only to realize later that there was no contradiction. Then, you claimed there was a contradiction between #431 and #532, only to realize that #431 has been clarified by other hadiths found in Sahih Muslim, which you were not even aware of. You are looking for a contradiction, plain and simple. I once told a non-Muslim that if you go looking into the Quran for the location of Atlantis, then you will find it, even though there is nothing in the Quran about Atlantis. Subjective analysis will always lead one to find what they are looking for, whether it is a contradiction or the location of Atlantis. ------------- Say: "Truly, my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my life and my death, are (all) for Allah, the Cherisher of the Worlds. (Surat al-Anaam: 162) |
Posted By: TG12345
Date Posted: 11 August 2013 at 3:10pm
Assalamu Alaikum, Islamispeace. I'm not going around and looking for contradictions. I obviously don't believe Islam is true, and have never hidden that, or my purpose in dialogue and debates with Muslims. When I am proven wrong, however, I admit it, as I did previously in this post. Furthermore, I have defended the Quran in its correct statement about the expanding of the universe http://www.islamicity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=25646&PN=3 and on Christian Forums I as well as refuted statements that Muslims contributed nothing to science since the 13th century http://www.islamicity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=25470&PN=2 Had my purpose been only to find problems and contradictions, and not listen to or consider alternate explanations or admit I could be wrong, I would be posting on CARM or writing material for "answering islam" or "wikiislam" or other garbage like that. I certainly wouldn't be on here, or debating with you outside of this forum. I certainly wouldn't have conceded I was in error to you and everyone else reading our conversation. Having said this, let's return to your argument: Since the hadith narrated by Mu'adh states plainly that people should not rely only on accepting the Shahadah as a gateway to Paradise and also says that they should avoid sins, the implication is that a Muslim needs to do everything that God requires. Neglecting the requirements means that your "acceptance" of the Shahadah is not sincere. This was all stated in the same hadith where he said that hell would be forbidden to the one who says the Shahadah sincerely! Obviously, Muhammad (pbuh) would not have contradicted himself just 10 seconds after saying it. Therefore, the meaning is not as you see it. As I said, we follow the Prophet and he clearly taught what I have shown. If you had done a little better research, you would have realized the facts. I am not alleging that Muhammad stated that saying the Shahadah sincerely is a gateway to Paradise. I am alleging he stated that a person who states it with sincerity, will not go to hell. Saying that those who say it sincerely will not go to hell conflicts with him saying later (or earlier) that some Muslims who were disobedient will go to hell for a while. You said also that neglecting requirements would mean that a person's "acceptance" of the Shahadah is insincere. If a person says the Shahadah insincerely, is he or she a Muslim to begin with? Can the shahada be accepted insincerely and still count in making a person a Muslim? If the answer is yes, then I could see the possibility that there is no contradiction. I am assuming there is a contradiction, like I assumed earlier. Earlier, you showed me I was wrong. I accepted this, and refuted my statement in front of everyone. If you can prove I am wrong, I will do the same. Allah Akhbar. Blessed be His Name. |
Posted By: islamispeace
Date Posted: 12 August 2013 at 3:09pm
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Only Allah (swt) knows if a Muslim is "sincere", whether it is with regard to the Shahadah or to any of the requirements of Islam, such as prayer. It is not up to humans to determine if someone is sincere. Getting back to the matter at hand, the fact is that you relied on a specific hadith without doing sufficient research as to its background. The hadith I showed clarifies the statement that accepting the Shahadah will protect a person from hell. This statement is true, but as the Prophet clarified immediately after saying it, Muslims should not trust in it alone. In other words, accepting the Shahadah means fulfilling the other requirements. Allah (swt) has commanded Muslims to pray five times a day, to fast, to give charity, to honor our parents etc., and has told us to obey His prophet. Therefore, neglecting any of these commands would contradict the Shahadah itself, since how can a Muslim believe in the One God and His final prophet while neglecting His commands? You have failed to explain why the Prophet would make the statement about the Shahadah and then a few sentences later explain that no one should rely on it alone. You just keep claiming there is a contradiction! How is it a contradiction?! ------------- Say: "Truly, my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my life and my death, are (all) for Allah, the Cherisher of the Worlds. (Surat al-Anaam: 162) |
Posted By: TG12345
Date Posted: 12 August 2013 at 7:19pm
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Assalamu Alaikum.
OK, no problems here.
Except this isn't what Muhammad said. Muhammad said that anyone who says the shahadah is protected from hellfire. Interestingly, after saying this, according to the hadith, when Mu'adh wanted to tell others so they could be of good cheer, Muhammad told him "then they would trust in it alone". If Muhammad knew that his saying about the shahadah would be misunderstood by people other than his companion, why would he say it to begin with? Why not state that if anyone says the shahadah sincerely, as long as s/he remains a Muslim until death, will go to Paradise? According to your faith, that would be true. You believe that Muslims will go to Paradise after they die, even if they go to hell for a while. It would have been completely accurate and true to say that anyone who says the Shahadah sincerely will go to Paradise. In fact, he did say that, here: (5) Abu Dharr reported,: I came to the Apostle (may peace be upon him ) and he was asleep with a white mantle over him. I again came, he was still asleep, I came again and he had awakened. I sat by his side and (the Holy Prophet) observed: There is none among the bondsmen who affirmed his faith in La illaha ill-Allah there is no god but Allah) and died in this state and did not enter paradise. I (Abu Dharr) said: Even if he committed adultery and theft? He (the Holy Prophet) replied: (Yes) even though he committed adultery and theft. I (again said): Even if he committed adultery and theft? He replied: (Yes) even though he committed adultery and theft. (Th Holy Prophet repeated it three times) and said for the fourth time: In defiance of Abu Dharr. Abu Dharr then went out and he repeated (these words): In defiance of Abu Dharr. (Book http://www.searchtruth.com/book_display.php?book=001&translator=2&start=0&number=0172 - #001 , Hadith http://www.searchtruth.com/book_display.php?book=001&translator=2&start=0&number=0172#0172 - #0172 ) http://www.searchtruth.com/searchHadith.php?keyword=paradise+no+god+but&translator=2&search=1&book=&start=0&records_display=10&search_word=all Making the statement that everyone who says the Shahadah sincerely will go to Paradise is true. Saying that anyone who says it sincerely will not go to hell is false, especially if he later said that some Muslims will indeed spend time in hell. "It is reported on the authority of Anas b. Malik that the Prophet of Allah (may peace and blessings be upon him) addressed Mu'adh b. Jabal as he was riding behind him to which he replied: At thy beck and call, and at thy pleasure, Messenger of Allah. He again called out: Mu'adh, to which he (again) replied: At thy beck and call, and at thy pleasure. He (the Holy Prophet) addressed him (again): Mu'adh, to which he replied: At thy beck and call, and at thy pleasure, Messenger of Allah. Upon this he (the Holy Prophet) observed: If anyone testifies (sincerely from his heart) that there is no god but Allah, and that Muhammad is His bondsman and His messenger, Allah immuned him from hell. He (Mu'adh) said: Messenger of Allah, should I not then inform people of it, so that they may be of good cheer? He replied: Then they would trust in it alone. Mu'adh told about it at the time of his death, to avoid sinning." (Book http://www.searchtruth.com/book_display.php?book=001&translator=2&start=0&number=0051 - #001 , Hadith http://www.searchtruth.com/book_display.php?book=001&translator=2&start=0&number=0051#0051 - #0051 ) Furthermore, Muhammad did not only tell Mu'adh about hell being immuned from those who said the Shahadah, he also told it to Utban bin Malik Al-Ansari. (7) Narrated 'Utban bin Malik Al-Ansari: who was one of the men of the tribe of Bani Salim: Allah's Apostle came to me and said, "If anybody comes on the Day of Resurrection who has said: La ilaha illal-lah, sincerely, with the intention to win Allah's Pleasure, Allah will make the hell-Fire forbidden for him." (Book http://www.searchtruth.com/book_display.php?book=76&translator=1&start=0&number=431 - #76 , Hadith http://www.searchtruth.com/book_display.php?book=76&translator=1&start=0&number=431#431 - #431 ) Interestingly, he didn't confirm, to the best of my knowledge (and if I am wrong, please show me where), as he did with Mu'adh, that it's not enough to just say that to not enter hell.
If the statement needs to be clarified, then in by itself as it is, it is not true. If Muslims need to do more than say the Shahadah (which is what your faith teaches), then it is not true that anyone who says it sincerely will enter Paradise.
If neglecting the commands you described means that a person does not accept the Shahadah, would it not mean that he or she is no longer a Muslim? And if he or she is no longer a Muslim, would they not be banned from Paradise at all? If Muhammad said that those who say the Shahadah sincerely will not taste hellfire but not obeying the commands means that one has not accepted the Shahadah, it would mean that the person has not accepted Islam. As non-believers, they would neither be promised that they will never enter hell, or be described in other hadiths as being taken out. The contradiction still stands. Either it is true that anyone who says the Shahadah sincerely will not be touched by hellfire, or it is true that some who say it sincerely will go to hell for a while. They can't both be true.
Perhaps because like Christianity, Islam teaches that it is not good to sin and God will punish you if you do, even if that does not mean one goes to hell. Stating that saying the Shahadah will ensure that anyone who does so will not be touched by hellfire is not true. Muhammad did not tell Mu'adh why people should not rely on the Shahadah alone, especially since seconds ago he told him that anyone who says it will indeed be spared from hell. If he needed to clarify what he said, then the original statement is not true. Of course, I am not going to attack him or condemn him for that. I have had to retract my words and clarify and correct myself many times and continue to do so, so that Muhammad had to do it also sometimes isn't a surprise. However, it would suggest that God didn't tell him that saying the Shahadah will mean that everyone who says it will not be touched by hell. In order for that statement to be true, it is necessary to qualify it with adding that one can't trust in Shahadah alone.
Hopefully that made it more clear. |