Question about 25:53 and 55:19,20
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Topic: Question about 25:53 and 55:19,20
Posted By: TG12345
Subject: Question about 25:53 and 55:19,20
Date Posted: 02 August 2013 at 7:57am
Assalamu Alaikum, I was wondering if Muslims could explain what these 2 verses from the Quran are referring to.
25:53
And
it is He Who has let free the two seas (kinds of water)*, one palatable and
sweet, and the other salt and bitter, and He has set a barrier and a complete
partition between them.
55:19,20
He
released the two seas, meeting [side by side];
Between
them is a barrier [so] neither of them transgresses.
*The words in brackets are not
in the Quran but is the translator�s insertion, as can be seen from http://corpus.quran.com/wordbyword.jsp?chapter=25&verse=53 - http://corpus.quran.com/wordbyword.jsp?chapter=25&verse=53 http://corpus.quran.com/wordbyword.jsp?chapter=25&verse=53 -
Where in the world are
there two bodies of water that meet, one being salty and one being sweet, but between
which is a barrier that is �forbidden� (according to CorpusQuran, that is the
word, not �complete�) to be passed?
Shukran wa Allahma3k
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Replies:
Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 02 August 2013 at 9:37pm
Hi TG, I recently watched something about this... wish I could remember when or where... Anyway, apparently it refers to the atmosphere which divides the 'waters above', i.e., blue skies, or 'the heavens', outer space... from the 'waters below', i.e., the earth with its waters.
------------- Let us seek Truth together
Blessed be God forever
"I believe in Jesus as I believe in the sun... not because I see it, but because by it, I see everything else.: - C.S.Lewis
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Posted By: Ron Webb
Date Posted: 03 August 2013 at 5:44am
TG12345 wrote:
Where in the world are there two bodies of water that meet, one being salty and one being sweet, but between which is a barrier that is �forbidden� (according to CorpusQuran, that is the word, not �complete�) to be passed? |
A footnote in Yusuf Ali's translation implies that the barrier is metaphorical, not physical. The point is that fresh and salt water are constantly mingling (where the rivers flow into the ocean), so one might expect that over time they would have completely mixed; yet Allah has magically kept them distinct. (Of course we now know that no magic is involved.)
------------- Addeenul �Aql � Religion is intellect.
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Posted By: Ron Webb
Date Posted: 03 August 2013 at 5:51am
Caringheart wrote:
I recently watched something about this... wish I could remember when or where... Anyway, apparently it refers to the atmosphere which divides the 'waters above', i.e., blue skies, or 'the heavens', outer space... from the 'waters below', i.e., the earth with its waters.
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You read it in the Bible, http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=genesis%201:6-7&version=KJV - Genesis 1:6-7 : "And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters. And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so." (Of course, we now know there is no firmament and no "waters above".)
------------- Addeenul �Aql � Religion is intellect.
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Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 03 August 2013 at 11:05am
Ron Webb wrote:
Caringheart wrote:
I recently watched something about this... wish I could remember when or where... Anyway, apparently it refers to the atmosphere which divides the 'waters above', i.e., blue skies, or 'the heavens', outer space... from the 'waters below', i.e., the earth with its waters.
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You read it in the Bible, http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=genesis%201:6-7&version=KJV - Genesis 1:6-7 : "And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters. And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so." (Of course, we now know there is no firmament and no "waters above".) |
Greetings Ron,
But this was the very thing that the program was talking about... It was talking about what would happen if there was no atmosphere. I wish my memory was better so I could share the details. It was very intriguing.
------------- Let us seek Truth together
Blessed be God forever
"I believe in Jesus as I believe in the sun... not because I see it, but because by it, I see everything else.: - C.S.Lewis
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Posted By: NABA
Date Posted: 06 August 2013 at 7:53am
in the book of oceanography Davis pg 92-93-It is been found that in estuaries there is a barrier between salt and sweet water,the point which distinguish fresh water from salt water is the pycnoclinic zone with its discontinuity,different temperature and this is also known as zone of seperation.truly Allah says Qur'an is for those who understand(ch 13 v 3-4)
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Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 06 August 2013 at 12:10pm
NABA wrote:
in the book of oceanography Davis pg 92-93-It is been found that in estuaries there is a barrier between salt and sweet water,the point which distinguish fresh water from salt water is the pycnoclinic zone with its discontinuity,different temperature and this is also known as zone of seperation.truly Allah says Qur'an is for those who understand(ch 13 v 3-4) |
Greetings NABA,
From when I studied... I did not learn of any separation of salt water from fresh water. The point where they come together and mix is known as brackish water.
Salaam, Caringheart
------------- Let us seek Truth together
Blessed be God forever
"I believe in Jesus as I believe in the sun... not because I see it, but because by it, I see everything else.: - C.S.Lewis
|
Posted By: Ron Webb
Date Posted: 06 August 2013 at 5:00pm
NABA wrote:
in the book of oceanography Davis pg 92-93-It is been found that in estuaries there is a barrier between salt and sweet water,the point which distinguish fresh water from salt water is the pycnoclinic zone with its discontinuity,different temperature and this is also known as zone of seperation.truly Allah says Qur'an is for those who understand(ch 13 v 3-4) |
A pycnoclinic zone is not a barrier. According to Wikipedia ( the source of all knowledge ), the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pycnocline - pycnocline is "the cline or layer where the density gradient is greatest within a body of water." In other words, it's just the transition region where salt and fresh water mix.
------------- Addeenul �Aql � Religion is intellect.
|
Posted By: TG12345
Date Posted: 06 August 2013 at 6:18pm
NABA wrote:
in the book of oceanography Davis pg 92-93-It is been found that in estuaries there is a barrier between salt and sweet water,the point which distinguish fresh water from salt water is the pycnoclinic zone with its discontinuity,different temperature and this is also known as zone of seperation.truly Allah says Qur'an is for those who understand(ch 13 v 3-4) |
Assalamu Alaikum, NABA.
Here is some information about estuaries.
http://oceanservice.noaa.gov/education/kits/estuaries/estuaries05_circulation.html
There are 4 types of estuaries- salt wedge, fjord, vertically mixed, and fresh water. The least amount of mixing happens in the "salt wedge".
Salt-wedge estuaries are the most stratified, or least mixed, of all
estuaries (Molles, 2002; Ross, 1995). They are also called highly
stratified estuaries. Salt-wedge estuaries occur when a rapidly flowing
river discharges into the ocean where tidal currents are weak. The force
of the river pushing fresh water out to sea rather than tidal currents
transporting seawater upstream determines the water circulation in these
estuaries. As fresh water is less dense than saltwater, it floats above
the seawater. A sharp boundary is created between the water masses,
with fresh water floating on top and a wedge of saltwater on the bottom.
Some mixing does occur at the boundary between the two water masses,
but it is generally slight. The location of the wedge varies with the
weather and tidal conditions. Examples of salt-wedge estuaries are the
Columbia River in Washington and Oregon, the Hudson River in New York,
and the Mississippi River in Louisiana.
In the animation below, the blue-colored fresh water flows
from the river on the right-hand side of the image over a green-colored
wedge of salty seawater as it moves out toward the ocean on the
left-hand side of the image. http://oceanservice.noaa.gov/education/kits/estuaries/media/supp_estuar05a_wedge.html
So we see that mixing does happen at all times, even if it is at a minimal level.
Let's examine the Quran verses again.
25:53
And
it is He Who has let free the two seas (kinds of water)*, one palatable and
sweet, and the other salt and bitter, and He has set a barrier and a complete
partition between them.
55:19,20
He
released the two seas, meeting [side by side];
Between
them is a barrier [so] neither of them transgresses.
If 25:53 and 55:19,20 are descriptions of estuaries, it means that the "complete partition" that God allegedly set between these 2 bodies of water is not that complete at all, and that His barrier is inefficient, since although it was built to ensure that "neither of them transgresses", they certainly do.
It would imply that according to the Quran, God is incapable of building effective partitions and barriers, and that the water disobeys Him and is able to get past them.
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Posted By: TG12345
Date Posted: 06 August 2013 at 6:21pm
Ron Webb wrote:
TG12345 wrote:
Where in the world are there two bodies of water that meet, one being salty and one being sweet, but between which is a barrier that is �forbidden� (according to CorpusQuran, that is the word, not �complete�) to be passed? |
A footnote in Yusuf Ali's translation implies that the barrier is metaphorical, not physical. The point is that fresh and salt water are constantly mingling (where the rivers flow into the ocean), so one might expect that over time they would have completely mixed; yet Allah has magically kept them distinct. (Of course we now know that no magic is involved.) |
Yet the barrier is definitely not "complete" and it does not stop the water from "transgressing". Mixing is minimized, but not stopped completely.
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Posted By: TG12345
Date Posted: 06 August 2013 at 6:22pm
Caringheart wrote:
NABA wrote:
in the book of oceanography Davis pg 92-93-It is been found that in estuaries there is a barrier between salt and sweet water,the point which distinguish fresh water from salt water is the pycnoclinic zone with its discontinuity,different temperature and this is also known as zone of seperation.truly Allah says Qur'an is for those who understand(ch 13 v 3-4) |
Greetings NABA,
From when I studied... I did not learn of any separation of salt water from fresh water. The point where they come together and mix is known as brackish water.
Salaam, Caringheart
|
There is separation, but it is not complete as the Quran states, and salty and fresh water does indeed "transgress".
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Posted By: Ron Webb
Date Posted: 06 August 2013 at 7:28pm
Anyway, the separation is only temporary. Ultimately, it all mixes. It just takes a little time, but there is no barrier.
------------- Addeenul �Aql � Religion is intellect.
|
Posted By: TG12345
Date Posted: 06 August 2013 at 7:37pm
Ron Webb wrote:
Anyway, the separation is only temporary. Ultimately, it all mixes. It just takes a little time, but there is no barrier. |
Or if we want to call the separation a barrier, it is in no way "complete", and it doesn't prevent the waters from "transgressing".
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Posted By: nothing
Date Posted: 08 August 2013 at 6:47pm
TG12345 wrote:
Assalamu Alaikum, I was wondering if Muslims could explain what these 2 verses from the Quran are referring to.
25:53
And
it is He Who has let free the two seas (kinds of water)*, one palatable and
sweet, and the other salt and bitter, and He has set a barrier and a complete
partition between them.
55:19,20
He
released the two seas, meeting [side by side];
Between
them is a barrier [so] neither of them transgresses.
*The words in brackets are not
in the Quran but is the translator�s insertion, as can be seen from http://corpus.quran.com/wordbyword.jsp?chapter=25&verse=53 - http://corpus.quran.com/wordbyword.jsp?chapter=25&verse=53 http://corpus.quran.com/wordbyword.jsp?chapter=25&verse=53 -
Where in the world are
there two bodies of water that meet, one being salty and one being sweet, but between
which is a barrier that is �forbidden� (according to CorpusQuran, that is the
word, not �complete�) to be passed?
Shukran wa Allahma3k
|
I could not see anything else other than a place between this life and the next life there is a place mentioned as Barzakh, a Partition. Also humans and Jinns are always together but living in different dimensions, together but we don't mix as there is partitian between us.
We took the Children of Israel
across the sea: Pharaoh and his hosts followed them in insolence and
spite. At length, when overwhelmed with the flood, he said: "I believe
that there is no god except Him Whom the Children of Israel believe in: I
am of those who submit (to Allah in Islam). (10:90)
Behold, Moses said to his
attendant, "I will not give up until I reach the junction of the two
seas or (until) I spend years and years in travel (18:60)
Until, when death comes to one of them, he says: "O my Lord! send me back (to life),- (23:99) In order that I may work
righteousness in the things I neglected." - "By no means! It is but a
word he says."- Before them is a Partition till the Day they are raised
up (23:100)
He created man from sounding clay like unto pottery, And He created Jinns from fire free of smoke Lord of the two Easts and Lord of the two Wests: He has let free the two bodies of flowing water, meeting together: Between them is a Barrier which they do not transgress: (55:14-20)
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Posted By: TG12345
Date Posted: 08 August 2013 at 9:09pm
nothing wrote:
TG12345 wrote:
Assalamu Alaikum, I was wondering if Muslims could explain what these 2 verses from the Quran are referring to.
25:53
And
it is He Who has let free the two seas (kinds of water)*, one palatable and
sweet, and the other salt and bitter, and He has set a barrier and a complete
partition between them.
55:19,20
He
released the two seas, meeting [side by side];
Between
them is a barrier [so] neither of them transgresses.
*The words in brackets are not
in the Quran but is the translator�s insertion, as can be seen from http://corpus.quran.com/wordbyword.jsp?chapter=25&verse=53 - http://corpus.quran.com/wordbyword.jsp?chapter=25&verse=53 http://corpus.quran.com/wordbyword.jsp?chapter=25&verse=53 -
Where in the world are
there two bodies of water that meet, one being salty and one being sweet, but between
which is a barrier that is �forbidden� (according to CorpusQuran, that is the
word, not �complete�) to be passed?
Shukran wa Allahma3k
|
I could not see anything else other than a place between this life and the next life there is a place mentioned as Barzakh, a Partition. Also humans and Jinns are always together but living in different dimensions, together but we don't mix as there is partitian between us.
We took the Children of Israel
across the sea: Pharaoh and his hosts followed them in insolence and
spite. At length, when overwhelmed with the flood, he said: "I believe
that there is no god except Him Whom the Children of Israel believe in: I
am of those who submit (to Allah in Islam). (10:90)
Behold, Moses said to his
attendant, "I will not give up until I reach the junction of the two
seas or (until) I spend years and years in travel (18:60)
Until, when death comes to one of them, he says: "O my Lord! send me back (to life),- (23:99) In order that I may work
righteousness in the things I neglected." - "By no means! It is but a
word he says."- Before them is a Partition till the Day they are raised
up (23:100)
He created man from sounding clay like unto pottery, And He created Jinns from fire free of smoke Lord of the two Easts and Lord of the two Wests: He has let free the two bodies of flowing water, meeting together: Between them is a Barrier which they do not transgress: (55:14-20)
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Assalamu Alaikum, nothing. This is quite an interesting interpretation of the verses, and the first time I have heard it. I read tafsirs Al Jalalayn, Ibn Abbas and Ibn Qathir, and they all refer to bodies of water that meet but are separated by a barrier that they don't transgress.
25:53
Tafsir Al Jalalayn
And
He it is Who merged the two seas: letting them [flow] one adjacent to
the other: this one palatable, sweet, and the other saltish, bitter; and
He set between the two an isthmus, so that the one does not mix with
the other, and a forbidding ban, a shield that prevents the two from
becoming mixed. http://www.altafsir.com/Tafasir.asp?tMadhNo=0&tTafsirNo=74&tSoraNo=25&tAyahNo=53&tDisplay=yes&UserProfile=0&LanguageId=2
Tafsir Ibn Abbas
(And He it is Who
hath given independence to the two seas (though they meet); one
palatable, sweet, and the other saltish, bitter; and hath set a bar) a
barrier between the sweet and the salty (and a forbidding ban between
them) preventing either one from transgressing against the other, such
as to make the taste of either of them change.
http://www.altafsir.com/Tafasir.asp?tMadhNo=0&tTafsirNo=73&tSoraNo=25&tAyahNo=53&tDisplay=yes&UserProfile=0&LanguageId=2
Tafsir Ibn Qathir
(And it is He Who has let free the two seas, this is palatable and
sweet, and that is salty and bitter;) means, He has created the two
kinds of water, sweet and salty. The sweet water is like that in rivers,
springs and wells, which is fresh, sweet, palatable water. This was the
view of Ibn Jurayj and of Ibn Jarir, and this is the meaning without a
doubt, for nowhere in creation is there a sea which is fresh and sweet.
Allah has told us about reality so that His servants may realize His
blessings to them and give thanks to Him. The sweet water is that which
flows amidst people. Allah has portioned it out among His creatures
according to their needs; rivers and springs in every land, according to
what they need for themselves and their lands.
﴿وَهَـذَا مِلْحٌ أُجَاجٌ﴾
(and that is salty and bitter;) meaning that it is salty, bitter and
not easy to swallow. This is like the seas that are known in the east
and the west, the Atlantic Ocean and the Straits that lead to it, the
Red Sea, the Arabian Sea, the Persian Gulf, the China Sea, the Indian
Ocean, the Mediterranean Sea, the Black Sea and so on, all the seas that
are stable and do not flow, but they swell and surge in the winter and
when the winds are strong, and they have tides that ebb and flow. At the
beginning of each month the tides ebb and flood, and when the month
starts to wane they retreat until they go back to where they started.
When the crescent of the following month appears, the tide begins to ebb
again until the fourteenth of the month, then it decreases. Allah, may
He be glorified, the One Whose power is absolute, has set these laws in
motion, so all of these seas are stationary, and He has made their water
salty lest the air turn putrid because of them and the whole earth turn
rotten as a result, and lest the earth spoil because of the animals
dying on it. Because its water is salty, its air is healthy and its dead
are good (to eat), hence when the Messenger of Allah was asked whether
sea water can be used for Wudu', he said:
�هُوَ الطَّهُورُ مَاؤُهُ، الْحِلُّ مَيْتَتُه�
(Its water is pure and its dead are lawful.) This was recorded by
Malik, Ash-Shafi`i and Ahmad, and by the scholars of Sunan with a good
﴿Jayyid﴾ chain of narration.
﴿وَجَعَلَ بَيْنَهُمَا بَرْزَخاً وَحِجْراً﴾
(and He has set a barrier and a complete partition between them. ) meaning, between the sweet water and the saltwater.
﴿بَرْزَخاً﴾
(a barrier) means a partition, which is dry land.
﴿وَحِجْراً مَّحْجُوراً﴾
(and a complete partition) means, a barrier, to prevent one of them from reaching the other. This is like the Ayat:
﴿مَرَجَ الْبَحْرَيْنِ يَلْتَقِيَانِ - بَيْنَهُمَا بَرْزَخٌ لاَّ يَبْغِيَانِ فَبِأَىِّ ءَالاءِ رَبِّكُمَا تُكَذِّبَانِ ﴾
(He has let loose the two seas meeting together. Between them is a
barrier which none of them can transgress. Then which of the blessings
of your Lord will you both deny) (55:19-21) http://www.qtafsir.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=2389&Itemid=80
Ibn Qathir refers to the "barrier" as dry land, whereas Al Jalalayn and Ibn Abbas don't specify. We know that there is no barrier in water that completely prevents salt and sweet water from mixing. We also know that if there is land separating salty and sweet water, then the partition is complete but it obviously means they don't meet each other. The tafsirs of 55:19, 20 also talk about bodies of water, and not about life and death, or people or jinns.
However, of course, the tafsir commentators could be all wrong. Let's look at the examples you gave to suggest that 55:19,20 and 25:53 could be talking about spiritual issues, not natural phenomena. 10:90 mentions the Pharaoh and his men about to be drowned in the Sea after pursuing the Israelites. There isn't any reference to anything but people literally being about to be drowned for oppressing God's people.
If we read chapter 18, we will see that 18:60 is a reference to the Sea, not a spiritual junction. 18:60-63
And [mention] when Moses
said to his servant, "I will not cease [traveling] until I
reach the junction of the two seas or continue for a long
period." But when they reached the
junction between them, they forgot their fish, and it took its
course into the sea, slipping away.
So when they had passed
beyond it, [Moses] said to his boy, "Bring us our morning
meal. We have certainly suffered in this, our journey, [much]
fatigue."
He said, "Did you see when
we retired to the rock? Indeed, I forgot [there] the fish.
And none made me forget it except Satan - that I should
mention it. And it took its course into the sea amazingly".
http://quran.com/18 Moses and his boy servant came to the junction of the seas, forgot their fish, and lost it. Satan was evidently the cause. An interesting story, but there is nothing to suggest that the junction is anything but a physical description. 23:99,100 does indeed mention a spiritual junction, but there is no mention of any bodies of water or sea. Verses 55:1-25 describe God's creation- from man, to the sun and the moon, to the stars, trees, heaven, earth, grain, jinns, sunrises, sunsets, the 2 seas, the coral and pearl found in both of them, and ships. The phrase "So which of these favors of the Lord would you deny?" occurs again and again. The verses all describe the things that He made, His beautiful and wondrous creation. There is no mention of anything about the barrier between life and death, and not surprisingly, the tafsir scholars make no such mention either. 25:53, when read in context, also describes physical realities of God's creation and not a metaphor for life and death. 25:53-55
And it is He who has
released [simultaneously] the two seas, one fresh and sweet and
one salty and bitter, and He placed between them a barrier
and prohibiting partition. And it is He who has
created from water a human being and made him [a relative by]
lineage and marriage. And ever is your Lord competent
[concerning creation].
But they worship rather
than Allah that which does not benefit them or harm them, and
the disbeliever is ever, against his Lord, an assistant [to
Satan].
From what I observe, I think it is evident that the Quran is describing nature. Unfortunately, in nature, there are no barriers between waters that meet, that do not allow them to "transgress". When salty and sweet water meet, in some cases there is a partition between them, but they do always mix to a certain extent. The author of the Quran made an obvious mistake here, I believe. For me, this is more evidence that he is not God. Allahma3k. Blessed be His Name.
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Posted By: NABA
Date Posted: 09 August 2013 at 10:29am
the best example of this verse can b seen when Mediterranean sea meets with Atlantic ocean,the water of Mediterranean sea is more warm less dense as compared to Atlantic when water of Mediterranean enters Atlantic even at the depth it maintains its original characteristic,explained in principles of oceanography p 93.Allah U Akbar!!!!
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Posted By: TG12345
Date Posted: 09 August 2013 at 11:14am
NABA wrote:
the best example of this verse can b seen when Mediterranean sea meets with Atlantic ocean,the water of Mediterranean sea is more warm less dense as compared to Atlantic when water of Mediterranean enters Atlantic even at the depth it maintains its original characteristic,explained in principles of oceanography p 93.Allah U Akbar!!!! |
Assalamu Alaikum. When the Mediterranean Sea and Atlantic Ocean meet, they form a layer, within which mixing between the two oceans occurs.
Ocean Mixing
Mixing in the ocean occurs on several scales, the smallest scale
being molecular. If a layer of warm, salty water lies above a layer of
colder, fresher water, the heat and salt will tend to diffuse (spread
out) downwards to make a single layer with intermediate temperature and salinity
values. However, because heat diffuses faster than salt, the process
can lead to local instabilities in the density structure which cause
mixing within a layer many meters thick. The best-known example of this
process, known as salt fingering, occurs where very salty water from the
Mediterranean outflow mixes into the North Atlantic. http://www.encyclopedia.com/doc/1G2-3409400232.html 55:19,20 and 25:53 reflect a misunderstanding of nature. There is no complete partition or barrier between the seas, that neither of them dare to transgress. They meet each other, and within a certain layer that is then formed, they mix. This layer is many meters thick. They very much indeed 'transgress'.
Also, neither the Mediterranean Sea or Atlantic Ocean are sweet or palatable, to the best of my knowledge. One is less salty than the other, but both are salty.
Allahu Akhbar! All praise be to Allah- the Father, Son and Holy Spirit!
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