BELIEVE OR DIE
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Category: Religion - Islam
Forum Name: Interfaith Dialogue
Forum Description: It is for Interfaith dialogue, where Muslims discuss with non-Muslims. We encourge that dialogue takes place in a cordial atmosphere on various topics including religious tolerance.
URL: https://www.islamicity.org/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=24804
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Topic: BELIEVE OR DIE
Posted By: nirvana
Subject: BELIEVE OR DIE
Date Posted: 05 February 2013 at 5:53am
| Some body likened religion to a robbery/mugging. in religion it is 'believe in this or endure eternal torture' robbers say 'give me your belongings or die'.is it really a choice. nobody wants to get hurt, right. so most end up believing no matter how disturbing their religion is out of fear of eternal torture.what do you think? |
Replies:
Posted By: Nausheen
Date Posted: 05 February 2013 at 6:31pm
Dear Nirvan, Welcome to Islamicity. may you cherish the time you spend here and we may we both learn something good from eachother. Your screen name suggests you are a Budhhists, though am not sure. If you would like to clarify, it may assist in our dialogues here. Honestly I don�t know if Budhhists believe in one true God. We believe that God is the Creator, and everything besides Him is His creation. Our life, health, prosperity and all the blessings we enjoy in this life � we do not have power on any of this. The One who is controlling all of it is the One who has created these for us. Thus, we do not have a right over ourselves in a manner which excludes the right of God upon us. Therefore, it becomes incumbent of us to worship Him and serve Him. Along with this, it becomes incumbent upon us that we do not make any from His creation a sharer in His worship. Those who do this are saved and those who do not are doomed in next life. Going back to your question, since we do not possess our souls, we do not have a right to lead it on a path of eternal destruction and loss. Rather our duty is to train it on the path of eternal salvation. People do this out of fear, it�s a very natural and prompt response, but a deeper and well thought choice also dictates one to work for ones salvation. The One Who demands this from us is not a robber, rather our Creator who intends good for us. It is said in the Quran that people are dragged to paradise in chains. This is a very metaphorical verse with multidimensional meanings. My knowledge cannot encompass all its aspects, but it is sketching the picture of a prisoner entering a jail when it relates to the people of paradise. It is also giving us a picture that people are not going there through their own will, rather they are dragged, as if forced into it � forced there, because that is the place where they belong. Through their own understanding and choosing they may want something which is easier in this life, thus are restricted in chains (through the laws of their Creator), they are not given a choice but to adhere to that which ultimately leads them to this final destination. This is the ultimate outcome of religion. Although we are not controlled physically or intellectually � apparently we are given a free will to choose, and act according to that. Those who choose the path of paradise, they find rules governing them, their freedom is restricted and they are expected to surrender this free will to the Will of God. Surrendering of the free will is not robbery, because robbery deprives us of our belongins, its strips us off that which is useful and beneficial. Here this is not happening. The One who is in control of all affairs, takes our affairs in His protection and gives us better than what we are capable of giving ourselves. Peace. ------------- <font color=purple>Wanu nazzilu minal Qurani ma huwa Shafaa un wa rahmatun lil mo'mineena wa la yaziduzzalimeena illa khasara.[/COLOR] |
nirvana wrote:Posted By: Abu Loren
Date Posted: 06 February 2013 at 2:08am
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Masha'Allah good answer from sister Nausheen. JazakhAllah Khair! Mr. Nirvana God made us so He can do whatever He wishes right? He is the potter and we are the clay therefore it is His prerogative what He does with his creation. In every country of the world there are laws that it's citizens must follow, if they disobey they are rebelling and would be labelled a criminal. God made us and gave us intrstructions in how to live our daily lives according to His pleasure. We must strive to please Him in every way, and everything apart from obeying Him is disobedience and siding with satan the most rebellious of creatures. He has given us a choice follow His laws or follow satan. Whichever you choose will result in your destiny, so one can choose to go to heaven or hell. By disobeying His commands you are in fact choosing to go to hell. Why are we given free will? When you surrender to Him you will understand all of these things, you will only understand these things when you have a humble heart and get rid of your arrogance. Total surrender is to be the goal of every soul that is created. Research what it is to be a Muslim. Muhsin Khan I shall turn away from My Ayat (verses of the Quran) those who behave arrogantly on the earth, without a right, and (even) if they see all the Ayat (proofs, evidences, verses, lessons, signs, revelations, etc.), they will not believe in them. And if they see the way of righteousness (monotheism, piety, and good deeds), they will not adopt it as the Way, but if they see the way of error (polytheism, crimes and evil deeds), they will adopt that way, that is because they have rejected Our Ayat (proofs, evidences, verses, lessons, signs, revelations, etc.) and were heedless (to learn a lesson) from them. Those who deny Our Ayat (proofs, evidences, verses, lessons, signs, revelations, etc.) and the Meeting in the Hereafter (Day of Resurrection,), vain are their deeds. Do they expect to be rewarded with anything except what they used to do? 7:46-47
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Posted By: nirvana
Date Posted: 06 February 2013 at 3:49am
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reply to Nausheen
Your screen name suggests you are a Budhhists, though am not sure. If you would like to clarify, it may assist in our dialogues here. i am agnostic People do this out of fear, it�s a very natural and prompt response, but a deeper and well thought choice also dictates one to work for ones salvation. those who believe in any religion stick to it out of fear. when discussing religion with a non religious person, their strongest point is that if the non believer continues down that path, they will suffer forever. fear is the bottom line. Our life, health, prosperity and all the blessings we enjoy in this life � we do not have power on any of this. this is another disturbing point. everything is in the control of God, so we are really not responsible for our actions. The One Who demands this from us is not a robber, rather our Creator who intends good for us. then remove hell and give everybody righteous souls. |
Posted By: Nausheen
Date Posted: 07 February 2013 at 10:59pm
Thank you for your response.
I would say fear is the first stage. Then comes the stage of love for the Creator. One toils, works righteousness and desires the countenance of the Lord. On bears tribulations and gives much thanks for blessings in order to earn His good pleasure. There is a kind of fear in love as well. One does not want the Beloved to turn away or become angry ... Also, it is said that hope and fear are two sandals of a believer or two wings of a believer. Ie the balance of hope and fear are always with the believer, till he meets his Lord and entered into safety. Another point to consider is that the destiny of a non-believer is from the perspective of a believer, and not the non-believer. One who does not believe in God or His judgement, does He, or Paradise and Hell or the judgement day bear any reality or consequence for them?
To not be able to do a thing, and to not want to do a thing is not same. I want to become the richest person on earth but I cannot because I do not have power to do so. However, if God wills, He facilitates it for me, because I wanted to ... so the intention, the desire, the choice for a particular action is mine, however to be able to carry it out comes only through His permission. That is why deeds are rewarded by their intentions.
Everything has a price. The more valuable a thing the higher is its price. One who desires a pure soul spends from himself in the path that leads him to become one. This live is a test and tests of life are not easy. ------------- <font color=purple>Wanu nazzilu minal Qurani ma huwa Shafaa un wa rahmatun lil mo'mineena wa la yaziduzzalimeena illa khasara.[/COLOR] |
Posted By: Mahdi The Seeke
Date Posted: 12 February 2013 at 10:54am
| how did thhow can you doubt the existence of GOD |
Posted By: Mahdi The Seeke
Date Posted: 12 February 2013 at 10:59am
| pray to God, you will get an answer. |
Posted By: nirvana
Date Posted: 12 February 2013 at 12:01pm
Mr. Nirvana God made us so He can do whatever He wishes right? He is the potter and we are the clay therefore it is His prerogative what He does with his creationthat is simply your belief. your parents brought you into this world. did God ask you if you would abide by His rules before you were conceived?God made us and gave us intrstructions in how to live our daily lives according to His pleasure. We must strive to please Him in every way, and everything apart from obeying Him is disobedience and siding with satan the most rebellious of creatures. He has given us a choice follow His laws or follow satan. Whichever you choose will result in your destiny, so one can choose to go to heaven or hell. By disobeying His commands you are in fact choosing to go to hell. Why are we given free will? When you surrender to Him you will understand all of these things, you will only understand these things when you have a humble heart and get rid of your arrogance. Total surrender is to be the goal of every soul that is created. Research what it is to be a Muslim. which God? there are so many and therefore so many 'rules'. you would have to choose one 'God' among the many before deciding which rules to follow. |
Posted By: Abu Loren
Date Posted: 13 February 2013 at 2:20am
What does that mean? We are all put on this earth to follow His law and His rules, anything other than this is called sin and is a criminal action with dire consequences. As you are given free will you can wither follow these laws and rules by obeying Him or you can go the way of satan by disobeying.
LOL. There are many Gods? Allah Subhana Wa Ta'ala says in the Holy Qur'an that if there were many gods they will all fight each other for dominion and they will not be just. Sahih International There is only ONE God my friend, and I think you should look deeply into it so that your soul is saved for eternity. Stop this nonsense what you are saying.
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Posted By: nirvana
Date Posted: 17 February 2013 at 1:39am
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Posted By: Placid
Date Posted: 19 February 2013 at 6:26pm
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Hi Nirvana,
Quote from Post 1: Some body likened religion to a robbery/mugging. in religion it is 'believe in this or endure eternal torture' robbers say 'give me your belongings or die'.is it really a choice. nobody wants to get hurt, right. so most end up believing no matter how disturbing their religion is out of fear of eternal torture. what do you think? Response: --- Most people have a general belief that God exists. --- That God is the First Cause. --- It is easy to have a negative impression of God from the world we live in, and the many religions to examine. --- However if God is Good, and enjoys His Creation, --- we need to find His will for our lives, so that we enjoy His favor here, --- and have hope and assurance of Eternal life with Him, and others. In the Zondervan Bible Dictionary, it gives an explanation of God and His creation. --- First of all, we must accept that there is One God, or One First Cause, that we call God. --- Secondly we know that He is a Creator, because �all things have been created.� --- (How He created all things is a mystery, but we don�t need to understand that.) But we can understand that God is a Good God. --- Two of His Characteristics are Love and Justice, which have been demonstrated in His relation to mankind. --- But the explanation is this: God could create whatever He desired. --- He created different orders of angels, that were all servants to Him. --- Because God is Love, He would also Love what He created, --- but He desired something or someone to Love Him in response to His Love for them. --- Because Love cannot be forced, to be a true Love, nor would it be Justice to force Love, --- it would have to be a voluntary Love, in response to God�s care and affection for them. Because of what is written in Scripture we understand that God created the Cherubim angels, with the freedom to choose. --- And the desire was that they would choose to Love and honor God in response to His Love and provision for them. Their freedom of choice would allow them to Love and worship God forever in Eternity, --- or reject God�s Love, follow their own way, --- and �suffer the consequences.� --- While this was a �test� to the angels, it also provided God with those who Loved Him by choice. (End of explanation.) --- There is no knowledge of how long this remained without some reaction to freedom of choice, but eventually there was a rebellion by the one who became the leader, �The Lucifer� or �Light-Bringer.� However, two thirds of the Cherubim remained true to God. --- The leader, or �The Lucifer� was cast out and a new Leader would have been chosen from among the faithful ones. The one who rebelled became proud and self-seeking, and it said in Ezekiel 28: 12 �You were the seal of perfection, Full of wisdom and perfect in beauty. 14 �You were the anointed cherub who covers; 15 You were perfect in your ways from the day you were created, Till iniquity was found in you. 17 �Your heart was lifted up because of your beauty; You corrupted your wisdom for the sake of your splendor; --- And it continues with these words in Isaiah 14: 13 For you have said in your heart: �I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God; I will also sit on the mount of the congregation on the farthest sides of the north; 14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds, I will be like the Most High.� 15 Yet you shall be brought down to Sheol, to the lowest depths of the Pit. This explains that God did not �create� sin. --- But this one, was perfect in all his ways --- �Until iniquity was found in him.� --- So the sins of Pride and Self-Exaltation �developed� in the heart of this one. --- And he was around to be the tempter in the later creation of a perfect man, --- Adam. Placid |
Posted By: nirvana
Date Posted: 19 February 2013 at 11:01pm
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Posted By: Placid
Date Posted: 27 February 2013 at 1:18pm
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Hi Nirvana,
Quote: Since your God is all knowing, He knew some people would not love Him, since that is the nature He created them with. and since He is all knowing, he knew all the suffering that would happen to mankind. He planned it that way. Your God is a sadist. Your God manifests His love by making innocent people suffer. Response: --- Sorry to be so slow in answering, --- we have been away for a while and I have neglected to answer you. --- As I explained, if God was going to create those who would love Him in response to His love for them, then it carried the risk of those who, by their own will, preferred not to love God, --- so they would not receive His blessing until they repented and came back to the point where they left. In Genesis it says that God created Adam and Eve and placed them in the Garden of Eden, or Garden of Delights. --- They were in a perfect environment, and could have lived forever in harmony with God. --- Adam and Eve disobeyed God, so lost that status, --- but they repented later, and continued on in a different state, --- and had children like themselves who were subject to sin, --- but God loved them. He made every provision for them to know His blessing, if they followed His will, --- however since sin was in the world, it brought a lot of people down, by them being tempted away from God, and following their own will and ambition. Quote: I'm going to create Man and Woman with original sin, impregnate a woman with myself so I can be born, then kill myself as a sacrifice to myself to save you from sin that I originally condemned you to. --- This is your signature, --- which, after Adam and Eve, transports us ahead some 4000 years, to the time of Jesus, --- and if this was true, it projects a pretty hopeless state, doesn�t it. Let�s examine it. --- Because God is Holy, He created Holy vessels to commune with, so Adam and Eve would be in harmony with Him. --- But with a free will, they weren't robots, they didn�t have to obey God, --- and with a tempter that wanted to destroy God�s plan, --- they were deceived, --- and they sinned. I am not sure whether you are a man or woman, and whether you would favor the Bible or the Quran, but I will give you a few verses from the Quran. --- Remember in the post above I said that the beautiful Cherubim who became the Lucifer was cast down through pride, and self exaltation? --- Well this Satan or Iblis continued to exist and became that tempter. ---It tells us more in Surah 7: 13 (God) said (to Satan): "Get thee down from this: it is not for thee to be arrogant here: get out, for thou art of the meanest (of creatures)." 16 He said: "Because thou hast thrown me out of the way, lo! I will lie in wait for them on thy straight way: 17 "Then will I assault them from before them and behind them, from their right and their left: Nor wilt thou find, in most of them, gratitude (for thy mercies)." 18 (God) said: "Get out from this, disgraced and expelled. If any of them follow thee, - Hell will I fill with you all. 19 �O Adam! dwell thou and thy wife in the Garden, and enjoy (its good things) as ye wish: but approach not this tree, or ye run into harm and transgression." 20 Then began Satan to whisper suggestions to them, he said: "Your Lord only forbade you this tree, lest ye should become angels or such beings as live for ever." 21 And he swore to them both, that he was their sincere adviser. 22 So by deceit he brought about their fall: when they tasted of the tree, their shame became manifest to them, and they began to sew together the leaves of the garden over their bodies. And their Lord called unto them: "Did I not forbid you that tree, and tell you that Satan was an avowed enemy unto you?" 23 They said: "Our Lord! We have wronged our own souls: If thou forgive us not and bestow not upon us Thy Mercy, we shall certainly be lost." 24 (God) said: "Get ye down. With enmity between yourselves. On earth will be your dwelling-place and your means of livelihood, - for a time." 25 He said: "Therein shall ye live, and therein shall ye die; but from it shall ye be taken out (at last)." 26 O ye Children of Adam! We have bestowed raiment upon you to cover your shame, as well as to be an adornment to you. But the raiment of righteousness, - that is the best. Such are among the Signs of God, that they may receive admonition! 27 O ye Children of Adam! Let not Satan seduce you, in the same manner as He got your parents out of the Garden, stripping them of their raiment, to expose their shame: for he and his tribe watch you from a position where ye cannot see them: --- Adam and Eve originally had a robe or �shroud� of righteousness, but when they sinned the glory of that righteousness faded, and they knew they had sinned. --- They tried to hide, but they were no longer holy, so they had to be removed from the presence of God. (Verse 24-25.) --- That is just the first part of your signature, but I don�t want to make the post too long, so I will continue later. 2 Peter 3:9 --- �God is longsuffering (patient) toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.� Placid |
Posted By: nirvana
Date Posted: 28 February 2013 at 10:32am
you have conveniently ignored the suffering of innocent people, some inflicted by people claiming to be agents of God, from suicide bombers to catholic priests. secondly, God already knew adam and eve would sin before he created them and everything that followed. it is part of God' will/divine plan. unless God is not all knowing. |
Posted By: Webber
Date Posted: 28 February 2013 at 12:48pm
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Hi Nirvana, considering you are agnostic I'm assuming you have spent much time listening to the words of Kurt No-brains. (Well, just what he left on the livingroom wall.) His music is a long sad tale. Suicide, a permanent solution to a temporary problem. Then again, life with Courtney... Yeah, so death is the inevitable fact of life. Not going to get around it. I know what you're thinking and it's not uncommon. Even Christians etc have thought about the same things. Whether they would ever voice it is another thing. Fear? You bet. Most Christians get the run-down on fire and brimstone early in life, before they can even understand it. Can I pop over to your signature for a moment, lol. This is a perfect example of how human logic can make total non-sense out of something much larger. At the same time human logic can make perfect sense out of non-sense. <----we know that because we pay taxes and fees for everything they have convinced us we need to. We're pretty much taught to give of ourselves to all the attractions the world has to offer. Hey, if you got nothing else, why not? Paul mentioned that. Nausheen mentioned she'd like to be rich. I've thought of it myself of course, but also think of how it would ruin my life. I have to leave room in my life for God to bless me. If I had everything, God has no reason and I soon become dependant on my own resources. Not expecting you to understand what I'm saying. I once related to an agnostic friend of mine a time when I should have died but "God" set me straight, (in a tremendously physical way) and told me what to do next. My friend said; "If anybody else told me this story I wouldn't believe them." In other words, he believes I believe but he can't fathom what I just said. I'm not going to do that to you, this is yours to deal with. Either you came here to find that out, or tell us we're all crazy. There is a good chance that what you've been listening to has had a negative influence, or a negative spirit involved. You can't see any good to joining "the force" after all, the dark side has it's fun... Placid went way over your head, lol. I honestly feel he has a spiritual depth that none of us understand. This is usually coupled with an ability to battle the "dark side". I'd bet he often feels led by the spirit to do certain things, mostly pray in a certain direction. It's an awesome thing, and it's real, but not so much from where we sit. We have no evidence because we choose not to look in that direction. It's a level of submission most of our egos can not handle. Placid, please correct me if I'm wrong. if you came here to tell us we're all crazy, go ahead, get on with it. If you came to see what we have that you are possibly looking for please allow us to pray for you. ------------- I'm a Gentile. Numb. 6:24-26 |
Posted By: nirvana
Date Posted: 01 March 2013 at 9:32am
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Posted By: Placid
Date Posted: 01 March 2013 at 1:51pm
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Hi Nirvana,
I see you have added something: Quote: �I do not believe any religious scripture.� --- If we add that to your signature, we get: Quote: I'm going to create Man and Woman with original sin, impregnate a woman with myself so I can be born, then kill myself as a sacrifice to myself to save you from sin that I originally condemned you to. --- Where did you get this knowledge of God, saying, �I'm going to create Man and Woman?� Webber said you are Agnostic, so I think that means that you believe there is a God, or a Creator. --- So somebody told you, or you read, --- that God created a man and a woman, Adam and Eve. I guess Webber was right that I went a little too deep by giving you Scriptures to show that God created Adam and Eve without sin, --- but, having free will, they were tempted to sin. --- Though they sinned, they repented and were forgiven. --- And through the 4000 years from then to your next event, --- God gave the descendants of Adam and Eve rules and guidelines to follow, to be restored to a right relationship with Him. --- Multitudes were obedient and righteous before God, and would have been saved. --- Then it got to a point where the people that should have been following God, began to worship other gods and idols. God sent messengers to warn them of their sin. Those who repented could be restored to righteousness and be saved. --- It was their choice. When you say �God knew they would sin,� --- that is not verified in Scripture, but since you don�t believe Scripture, it is your idea. --- As I said, God was taking a risk by creating them with a free will. --- However, it is the same with us today, we are born with a will of our own. --- If as children we are loved and cared for, we grow up thinking that this is a pretty good world that God has created for us. If we have been neglected and abused we relate that to God whom we think controls everything, and we say, why do people suffer, --- and you are right, --- �from suicide murderers, to Catholic Priests.� --- Did you know that in many places, they have taken every Bible and New Testament out of the schools, --- but they teach about �alternative lifestyles,� --- homosexuality and lesbianism. That is not from God but from degenerated men. --- Even spiritual wickedness in high places, where men in positions of authority have been deceived by Satan. If you choose to blame God for the problems man has gotten himself, and the world, into, --- and since there is no other God to go to for help, but Him, --- this leaves us in a real dilemma, doesn�t it? Placid |
Posted By: nirvana
Date Posted: 02 March 2013 at 12:34am
i do not know how the world began, but i do not believe the account of adam , eve and the talking serpent. i use religious scripture only to point out what i find unbelievable, not because i believe in it. |
Posted By: Webber
Date Posted: 03 March 2013 at 10:58am
It is not up to me. I'm not into empty prayers. No use praying the piano that just fell out of the 32nd floor window won't land on your head, just move out of the way! Why would God "save" someone st**id enough to stand there? When the Lord leads me to pray for you I will. I don't mean some sobby empty prayer for the "lost souls" of the world, I mean when I'm led to do so. You have an adverse spirit. It's not uncommon. If you took the time to meditae on it you'd find it an external spirit and not your own. I won't get into that here. Nobody wants to be told and controlled by some preacher dude forcing you into rules and laws supposedly enforced by a god you haven't met. I don't blame you a bit for your beliefs right now. However...you haven't called us all crazy, and probably here to figure out why we believe the absurd. The day God touches you, you will change your beliefs, maybe your shorts too, but in the mean time all I would suggest is to separate what man has decided God is from what God actually is. Just look up and say "God, if you're real I'd really like to know it someday." No need to run, lightning won't strike. Please, don't want to come across like I know you, etc. We haven't walked in each others shoes but I'd bet for a while we've worn the same size. Just saying. ------------- I'm a Gentile. Numb. 6:24-26 |
Posted By: Placid
Date Posted: 04 March 2013 at 7:44am
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Hi Nirvana,
Quote: I use religious scripture only to point out what I find unbelievable, not because I believe in it. Response: --- So I see from your response to Webber that you have done some studying. --- Then rather than rehearse stories that you may already have read, I want to give the reason why I believe the Scriptures. --- It says this in 2 Peter 1: 16 For we did not follow cunningly devised fables when we made known to you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of His majesty. 17 For He received from God the Father honor and glory when such a voice came to Him from the Excellent Glory: �This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.� 18 And we heard this voice which came from heaven when we were with Him on the holy mountain. 19 And so we have the prophetic word confirmed, which you do well to heed as a light that shines in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts; 20 knowing this first, that no prophecy of Scripture is of any private interpretation, 21 for prophecy never came by the will of man, but holy men of God spoke as they were moved by the Holy Spirit. --- It was the Holy Spirit that spoke through the Prophets, and that is what prophecy was. --- For example, the Prophecy in Isaiah that �a virgin would conceive,� was given over 700 years before Jesus was born. And here is a prophecy that was given about 67 AD, which is being fulfilled today, in 2 Timothy 3: 1 But know this, that in the last days perilous times will come: 2 For men will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy, 3 unloving, unforgiving, slanderers, without self-control, brutal, despisers of good, 4 traitors, headstrong, haughty, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God, 5 having a form of godliness but denying its power. --- (Lots of religion but not much Faith.) This is the time in which we live, is it not? --- When greedy men cripple their own countries, --- and the world runs wildly after entertainment, sports and immorality. --- The internet occupies the mind, --- and terrorism and strife, are destroying the moral societies, and the beautiful world that God gave us. --- Our choice is either to trust God, --- that He will intervene soon to restore righteousness, which is another prophecy. --- Or we can blame God for what is happening. Placid |
Posted By: nirvana
Date Posted: 04 March 2013 at 10:25pm
this is the way it has always been, and the way it always will be. |
Posted By: nirvana
Date Posted: 04 March 2013 at 10:31pm
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Posted By: Placid
Date Posted: 06 March 2013 at 3:48pm
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Hi Nirvana,
Quote: 2 Timothy 3: 1 But know this, that in the last days perilous times will come: --- This is the way it has always been, and the way it always will be. Response: --- I agree with you partly on this, but in these last days there are more weapons of mass destruction and more greed and selfish desire by men to dominate the world, or their part of it. So that is the negative, but since you mentioned the sacrifice of Jesus in your signature, --- Let�s consider the positive result. In the OT God said, �Without the shedding of blood there is no remission of sin.� --- A quite hard saying. --- I will explain it simply without detail, but if you, or Webber are interested, I can explain it further. --- However, it is sufficient to say that Adam and Eve were created perfect, in perfect bodies in a perfect environment, --- with the life support system of the Holy Spirit of God. --- When they sinned, by being disobedient to God, they had to be removed from the Garden and the Holy Spirit had to be withdrawn, and they died Spiritually, --- because the Holiness of God could not remain in unholy vessels. They were given a new life support system on earth, the circulatory blood system in a flesh and blood body, like the animals had, and like we have today. --- And the blood body of man was really an offense to God. --- So God gave the Jews laws to follow, which involved coming before Him to confess their sin and to receive guidance and instruction. --- BUT, they had to bring an animal without blemish and kill it, then drain the blood, and --- offer it to God as a pure sacrifice. --- After the sacrifice, the animal was used for food so there was no waste. --- But the body without blood was the �atonement� for sin. --- Notice that word, �at-one-ment,� --- so, with the pure sacrifice, they were, �at one� --- or �reconciled to God� by their obedient action. It continued until the Jews became disobedient and began to worship other gods, of the pagans around them, --- and when they did bring an offering of an animal, rather than it being the unblemished choice animal, it would be the sick or the lame, so they were insulting God. --- It says in the last book of the OT, in Malachi 1: 8 "And when you offer the blind as a sacrifice, Is it not evil? And when you offer the lame and sick, Is it not evil? Offer it then to your governor! Would he be pleased with you? Would he accept you favorably?� Says the Lord of hosts. And it says this in Hebrews 10: 5 �Sacrifice and offering You did not desire, But a body You have prepared for Me. 6 In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin You had no pleasure. 7 Then I said, �Behold, I have come� In the volume of the book it is written of Me� To do Your will, O God.�� --- So God prepared a body through the virgin birth, who would live in the flesh as a perfect man, and be a perfect Sacrifice for the sin of the world. Here is what happened. --- Because Satan had caused man to sin, he had the power of death over them, so they remained in a �prison of death� till Jesus came, --- but at the moment Jesus died, the sacrifice for sin was accepted, and Satan�s power over death was destroyed. --- So this is what it says in Matthew 28: 50 And Jesus cried out again with a loud voice, and yielded up His spirit. 51 Then, behold, the veil of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom; and the earth quaked, and the rocks were split, 52 and the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised; 53 and coming out of the graves after His resurrection, they went into the holy city and appeared to many. --- At the time of Jesus death, the veil of the Temple (the curtain that separated the Holy of Holies where the priests only were allowed to enter) was torn from top to bottom (signifying that God did it, so now the altar of prayer was open to everyone, without having to go through a priest.) --- And the earth quaked, --- AND THE GRAVES WERE OPENED, AND MANY BODIES OF THE SAINTS WHO HAD FALLEN ASLEEP (in death) WERE RAISED. --- And after Jesus� resurrection, they went into the holy city (Jerusalem) and appeared to many (I believe that after His resurrection, when He ascended to heaven, that they went too, and since then, every �born again� Christian who dies, --- their soul is caught up to heaven. --- No more waiting in a state of death, till the last judgment, ---because they have already been judged �righteous� before God. --- They have been �Born Again� Spiritually by the Holy Spirit that had to be withdrawn from Adam and Eve, when they sinned, --- and had died Spiritually, as it says in Genesis.) Placid |
Posted By: nirvana
Date Posted: 08 March 2013 at 1:08am
In the OT God said, �Without the shedding of blood there is no remission of sin.� --- A quite hard saying. always quote the chapter and verse so i can verify for myself And the blood body of man was really an offense to God.do not make things up Because Satan had caused man to sin, he had the power of death over themi thought 'GOD' had all the power so they remained in a �prison of death� till Jesus came, --- i feel sorry for those who died before Jesus came, they all belong to 'SATAN' (I believe that after His resurrection, when He ascended to heaven, that they went too,conjecture/imagination/extrapolation/opinion/irrelevant. |
Posted By: Placid
Date Posted: 08 March 2013 at 6:13am
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Hi Nirvana,
I want to add something else that you and Webber may want to consider, and respond to. Most of my posts end up being longer than I plan to make them, but I want to give what the Scripture says. If you don�t believe any Scriptures, then it doesn�t matter, --- but I want to suggest that since the people of the world see death as the finality, --- they emphasize the death on the cross, as the end. However, the �victory� over death, is in the �resurrection.� --- This incident is recorded in John 11: 1 Now a certain man was sick, Lazarus of Bethany, the town of Mary and her sister Martha. 2 It was that Mary who anointed the Lord with fragrant oil and wiped His feet with her hair, whose brother Lazarus was sick. --- (A home where Jesus and the disciples often visited.) 3 Therefore the sisters sent to Him, saying, �Lord, behold, he whom You love is sick.� 4 When Jesus heard that, He said, �This sickness is not unto death, but for the glory of God, that the Son of God may be glorified through it.� 5 Now Jesus loved Martha and her sister and Lazarus. 6 So, when He heard that he was sick, He stayed two more days in the place where He was. 14 Then Jesus said to them plainly, �Lazarus is dead. 15 And I am glad for your sakes that I was not there, that you may believe. Nevertheless let us go to him.� 17 So when Jesus came, He found that he had already been in the tomb four days. 18 Now Bethany was near Jerusalem, about two miles away. 19 And many of the Jews had joined the women around Martha and Mary, to comfort them concerning their brother. 20 Now Martha, as soon as she heard that Jesus was coming, went and met Him, but Mary was sitting in the house. 21 Now Martha said to Jesus, �Lord, if You had been here, my brother would not have died. 22 But even now I know that whatever You ask of God, God will give You.� --- (This was the great faith they had in Jesus, --- that had He come before Lazarus died, He could have healed him. --- I have heard of a Jewish tradition that at physical death, the spirit remains with the body for three days, but after that there was no hope of reviving a body, as deterioration was too great. At any rate Jesus waited till four days after his death and burial. He told the disciples in v15, �I was glad I was not there, THAT YOU MAY BELIEVE. --- But Martha said, �But even now, I know that whatever You ask of God, God will give you.� 23 Jesus said to her, �Your brother will rise again.� 24 Martha said to Him, �I know that he will rise again in the resurrection at the last day.� 25 Jesus said to her, �I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in Me, though he may die, he shall live. 26 And whoever lives and believes in Me shall never die 32 Then, when Mary came where Jesus was, and saw Him, she fell down at His feet, saying to Him, �Lord, if You had been here, my brother would not have died.� --- (She said the same words. --- And Jesus �was troubled in spirit,� because of their great sorrow.) 33 Therefore, when Jesus saw her weeping, and the Jews who came with her weeping, He groaned in the spirit and was troubled. 34 And He said, �Where have you laid him?� They said to Him, �Lord, come and see.� 35 Jesus wept. --- (The shortest verse in the NT. --- Even though Jesus knew what He would do, --- He wept with them.) 36 Then the Jews said, �See how He loved him!� 37 And some of them said, �Could not this Man, who opened the eyes of the blind, also have kept this man from dying?� 38 Then Jesus, again groaning in Himself, came to the tomb. It was a cave, and a stone lay against it. 39 Jesus said, �Take away the stone.� Martha, the sister of him who was dead, said to Him, �Lord, by this time there is a stench, for he has been dead four days.� 40 Jesus said to her, �Did I not say to you that if you would believe you would see the glory of God?� 41 Then they took away the stone from the place where the dead man was lying. And Jesus lifted up His eyes and said, �Father, I thank You that You have heard Me. 42 And I know that You always hear Me, but because of the people who are standing by I said this, that they may believe that You sent Me.� 43 Now when He had said these things, He cried with a loud voice, �Lazarus, come forth!� 44 And he who had died came out bound hand and foot with graveclothes, and his face was wrapped with a cloth. Jesus said to them, �Loose him, and let him go.� This impossible miracle (in the minds of the Jews, and even the disciples) was done to show that Jesus had been given power over death, --- and it was to show them that He, too, would die and be resurrected according to God�s promise. --- This is recorded in Mark 8: 31 And He began to teach them that the Son of Man must suffer many things, and be rejected by the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and after three days rise again. The raising of Lazarus was a living example of Jesus' death, burial, and resurrection, that they might believe what He was teaching them. Placid |
Posted By: Placid
Date Posted: 09 March 2013 at 9:18am
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Hi Nirvana,
There is one last passage of Scripture that I want to add concerning the resurrection. If you say, you don�t believe in any Scriptures, --- then you don�t have to believe in these either. --- I want to mention first, --- the word �infallible,� is not found in the Quran, nor in the Old Testament. It is only found ONCE in the New Testament, and it doesn�t refer to any man being �infallible.� It was written by Luke, who was a medical doctor, and a historian, but it is not in the Gospel of Luke. --- In his Gospel account, Luke, who was Greek, addresses it to Theophilus, and says this in Luke 1: 1 Inasmuch as many have taken in hand to set in order a narrative of those things which have been fulfilled among us, 2 just as those who from the beginning were eyewitnesses and ministers of the word, delivered them to us, 3 it seemed good to me also, having had perfect understanding of all things from the very first, to write to you an orderly account, most excellent Theophilus, 4 that you may know the certainty of those things in which you were instructed. --- Then Luke became a companion of Paul on some missionary journeys, and accompanied him to Rome, and wrote an orderly account of �The Acts of the Apostles,� --- where he says again in Acts 1: 1 The former account I made, O Theophilus, of all that Jesus began both to do and teach, 2 until the day in which He was taken up, after He through the Holy Spirit had given commandments to the apostles whom He had chosen, 3 to whom He also presented Himself alive after His suffering by many �infallible� proofs, being seen by them during forty days and speaking of the things pertaining to the kingdom of God. --- So these proofs of the resurrection of Jesus Christ to eye witnesses, --- were the �infallible' proof. This evidence is given in 1 Corinthians 15: 3 For I delivered to you first of all that which I also received: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4 and that He was buried, and that He rose again the third day according to the Scriptures, 5 and that He was seen by Cephas (Peter), then by the twelve. 6 After that He was seen by over five hundred brethren at once, of whom the greater part remain to the present (the time of writing), but some have fallen asleep. 7 After that He was seen by James, then by all the apostles. And this is the Scripture that I want to present from 1 Peter 3: 18 For Christ also suffered once for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive by the Spirit, 19 by whom also He went and preached to the spirits in prison, 20 who formerly were disobedient, when once the Divine longsuffering waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water. 21 There is also an antitype which now saves us�baptism (not the removal of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God), through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, 22 who has gone into heaven and is at the right hand of God, angels and authorities and powers having been made subject to Him. --- I am not going to say I understand the depth of these verses, but the truth of Scripture does not depend on us understanding it, but rather, whether we believe it as a message from God, --- which gives us the hope of resurrection, --- and eternal life for believers, as both the Bible and the Quran promise. However, --- it speaks of the flood where (8 souls) Noah and his wife and their three sons and their wives, were carried in the Ark above the flood waters. But it speaks of another group who were, �disobedient,� --- and were lost in the water. But their �souls� (or as it says in v19, their �spirits�) were kept in �a prison of death� --- The physical body of Jesus had to die, but because He was �without sin� He could not be held in this �prison of death,� --- but rather He (in the Spirit) preached (gave the message of God�s salvation for believers) to these �disobedient� ones, whose lives were cut short in the flood. --- If they had been �believers� by having �a good conscience toward God� (though disobedient), they would be �released� and taken to heaven. --- (This would have happened during the three days that Jesus� body was in the tomb.) --- So here we have �victory over death� for this group from the time of Noah, --- and the �victory over death� in Matthew of the �saints that rose from their graves� when Jesus died on the cross. And again it says in 1 Corinthians 15: 20 But now Christ is risen from the dead, and has become the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. 21 For since by man came death, by Man also came the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive. 53 For this corruptible (physical being) must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54 So when this corruptible has put on incorruption, and this mortal has put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written: �Death is swallowed up in victory.�] 55 �O Death, where is your sting? --- O Hades, where is your victory?� 56 The sting of death is sin, and the strength of sin is the law. 57 But thanks be to God, who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ. --- (The symbol of Baptism in v21): --- A person has to be a believer before the symbol has any meaning. --- They are taken into the water, (either open water as a river, or a Baptistry) and they are lowered under the water so that the water closes over their face, --- then they are raised up again in the water. --- the symbolism is that they are �buried' (as with Christ) under the water (as Jesus was buried in the tomb) and they rise again (as Jesus was resurrected) --- which is a testimony of their �new life� in Christ. So this is the wonderful Message of the Gospel. --- People may choose not to believe it, --- but just so they know this is God�s plan of salvation, --- and that it is there for those who will believe. Placid |
Posted By: nirvana
Date Posted: 09 March 2013 at 12:05pm
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Posted By: Placid
Date Posted: 11 March 2013 at 9:57am
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Hi Nirvana,
The point of the first post that you are referring to is that when Jesus spoke of His �death, burial, and resurrection,� --- no one really understood what He was telling them --- so, the story of Lazarus dying, and being dead four days before being resurrected, --- had happened just two or three weeks before the Passover, when Jesus went through death, and after three days was resurrected. In your title �Believe or die.� --- Either �believe� and be resurrected to eternal life, or disbelieve and be separated from God for eternity. Lazarus was restored to physical life, Jesus was resurrected in a Spiritual body, --- and in the sight of the disciples was later caught up to heaven. |
Posted By: Placid
Date Posted: 12 March 2013 at 1:49pm
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Hi,
The last long post lists two resurrection of peole from the time of Jesus death, who were translated to heaven. They did not have to wait for a final judgment, because they were already judged as being righteous. |
Posted By: nirvana
Date Posted: 13 March 2013 at 5:09am
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Posted By: Placid
Date Posted: 18 March 2013 at 6:49am
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Hi Nirvana.
Quote: The last long post lists two resurrection of peole from the time of Jesus death, who were translated to heaven. They did not have to wait for a final judgment, because they were already judged as being righteous. --- Which two people? Response: --- The first group I referred to was that of the believers, called �saints,� who were raised from the dead, and appeared in Jerusalem after His resurrection. In Matthew 27: 50 And Jesus cried out again with a loud voice, and yielded up His spirit. 51 Then, behold, the veil of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom; and the earth quaked, and the rocks were split, 52 and the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised; 53 and coming out of the graves after His resurrection, they went into the holy city and appeared to many. The second group was of those who had perished in the flood and it said were �disobedient in the days of Noah� --- If there were some who were believers, but 'disobedient,' then God would know their worthiness to be saved. --- So this reveals that the Soul is eternal and God is the final judge. And this is the Scripture that I presented from 1 Peter 3: 18 For Christ also suffered once for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive by the Spirit, 19 by whom also He went and preached (proclaimed the Message of Victory over death) to the spirits in prison, 20 who formerly were disobedient, when once the Divine longsuffering waited in the days of Noah, while the Ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water. |
Posted By: Placid
Date Posted: 18 March 2013 at 7:42am
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Hi Webber,
Sorry I have dominated this topic with my long posts. However, about half way down on Page 3, in response to your post, Nirvana asked: "What does the Bible say about prayer?" |
Posted By: Placid
Date Posted: 25 March 2013 at 7:32am
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Hi Nirvana,
In response to your question on page three about prayer, This is what Jesus taught His disciples in Matthew 6: The Model Prayer 5 �And when you pray, you shall not be like the hypocrites. For they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the corners of the streets, that they may be seen by men. Assuredly, I say to you, they have their reward. 6 But you, when you pray, go into your room, and when you have shut your door, pray to your Father who is in the secret place; and your Father who sees in secret will reward you openly. 7 And when you pray, do not use vain repetitions as the heathen do. For they think that they will be heard for their many words. 8 �Therefore do not be like them. For your Father knows the things you have need of before you ask Him. 9 In this manner, therefore, pray: Our Father in heaven, Hallowed be Your name. 10 Your kingdom come. Your will be done On earth as it is in heaven. 11 Give us this day our daily bread. 12 And forgive us our debts, As we forgive our debtors. 13 And do not lead us into temptation, But deliver us from the evil one. For Yours is the kingdom and the power and the glory forever. Amen. 14 �For if you forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. 15 But if you do not forgive men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses. |