Interfaith Dialogue - BIBLE:NOBODY CAN DIE FOR ANOTHER'S SINS

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BIBLE:NOBODY CAN DIE FOR ANOTHER'S SINS

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Topic: BIBLE:NOBODY CAN DIE FOR ANOTHER'S SINS

Posted By: Mahdi The Seeke
Subject: BIBLE:NOBODY CAN DIE FOR ANOTHER'S SINS
Date Posted: 29 January 2013 at 11:10am

Ezekiel 18:20
New International Version (NIV)
20 The one who sins is the one who will die. The child will not share the guilt of the parent, nor will the parent share the guilt of the child. The righteousness of the righteous will be credited to them, and the wickedness of the wicked will be charged against them.

Replies:

Posted By: Abu Loren
Date Posted: 30 January 2013 at 4:39am

Mahdi The Seeke wrote:

Ezekiel 18:20
New International Version (NIV)
20 The one who sins is the one who will die. The child will not share the guilt of the parent, nor will the parent share the guilt of the child. The righteousness of the righteous will be credited to them, and the wickedness of the wicked will be charged against them.

Wow thank you bro.

It's amazing how the Trinitarians changed everything around when they hijacked the Bible and only choose the books that are more favourable to their cause.

Keep up the good work. JazakhAllah Khair!

Posted By: Webber
Date Posted: 30 January 2013 at 11:21pm

Abu Loren wrote:

Wow thank you bro.

It's amazing how the Trinitarians changed everything around when they hijacked the Bible and only choose the books that are more favourable to their cause.

Keep up the good work. JazakhAllah Khair!

LOL

-------------
I'm a Gentile.
Numb. 6:24-26

Posted By: honeto
Date Posted: 02 February 2013 at 2:52pm

Jazak'Allah brother.
here is another place in OT where something similar has been said:
Psalm 49 (King James Version)
1 "Hear this, all ye people; give ear, all ye inhabitants of the world:

2 Both low and high, rich and poor, together.

3 My mouth shall speak of wisdom; and the meditation of my heart shall be of understanding.

4 I will incline mine ear to a parable: I will open my dark saying upon the harp.

5 Wherefore should I fear in the days of evil, when the iniquity of my heels shall compass me about?

6 They that trust in their wealth, and boast themselves in the multitude of their riches;

7 None of them can by any means redeem his brother, nor give to God a ransom for him:"

I am surprised no Christian, who believes in blood sacrifice for ransom of their sins came forward in defense!

The Quran remind us of the same:
"5:36 (Y. Ali) As to those who reject Faith,- if they had everything on earth, and twice repeated, to give as ransom for the penalty of the Day of Judgment, it would never be accepted of them, theirs would be a grievous penalty.
Hasan

-------------
The friends of God will certainly have nothing to fear, nor will they be grieved. Al Quran 10:62

Posted By: Mahdi The Seeke
Date Posted: 04 February 2013 at 9:59am

honeto wrote:

it is just so obvious you can't start to refute it. but most even if they have eyes, they refuse to see and even when they have brains, they fail to use their minds and follow preachers dogmas blindly without thinking.

Posted By: Empiricist
Date Posted: 08 February 2013 at 7:59pm

Everything you say about Christian ignorance can also be said about Muslims. You prove nothing, hypocrite.

Only God forgives sins. Jesus forgave sins. What does that mean?

Posted By: Experiential
Date Posted: 09 February 2013 at 3:06pm

Hello Mahdi

You misunderstand Ezekiel 18:20 and appear to think it contradicts Christ�s atonement of sin. This verse has nothing to do with atonement of sin but rather it is about the human consequence of sin and the children not paying the debt of the fathers sin.

If you and Abu Loren think this is just a Christian / Trinitarian / pagan invention then consider this. The atonement of Christ is based on the Jewish / Hebrew traditions and scriptures.

The Old Testament law is clear. Blood atonement is necessary. For example �

�For the life of a creature is in the blood, and I have given it to you to make atonement for yourselves on the altar; it is the blood that makes atonement for one's life�.

Leviticus 17:11.

See also Leviticus 4:20, 26, 31, 35; 5:10, 13, 16, 18; 6:7; 19:22; and Numbers 15:22-28.

Jesus said in Mathew 5.17. he came to fulfill the law �Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.

In him fulfilling the Old Testament law he became the atoning Pass Over Lamb in the Book of Exodus. �The blood will be a sign for you on the houses where you are; and when I see the blood, I will pass over you. No destructive plague will touch you when I strike Egypt�. Exodus 12:13

Also read Isaiah chapter 53. -

�Surely he took up our infirmities and carried our sorrows, yet we considered him stricken by God, smitten by him, and afflicted.

But he was pierced for our transgressions, he was crushed for our iniquities; the punishment that brought us peace was upon him, and by his wounds we are healed.

We all, like sheep, have gone astray, each of us has turned to his own way; and the LORD has laid on him the iniquity of us all.

He was oppressed and afflicted, yet he did not open his mouth; he was led like a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is silent, so he did not open his mouth.

By oppression [fn] and judgment he was taken away. And who can speak of his descendants? For he was cut off from the land of the living; for the transgression of my people he was stricken. [fn]

He was assigned a grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death, though he had done no violence, nor was any deceit in his mouth.

Yet it was the LORD's will to crush him and cause him to suffer, and though the LORD makes [fn] his life a guilt offering, he will see his offspring and prolong his days, and the will of the LORD will prosper in his hand.

After the suffering of his soul, he will see the light [of life] [fn] and be satisfied [fn]; by his knowledge [fn] my righteous servant will justify many, and he will bear their iniquities.

Therefore I will give him a portion among the great, [fn] and he will divide the spoils with the strong, [fn] because he poured out his life unto death, and was numbered with the transgressors. For he bore the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.�

Just like you got Ezekiel 18.20 wrong, Honeto got Psalm 49 wrong. Verse 7 is about people being unable to give a God a financial ransom. Is has nothing to do with God being made full in Christ and then giving himself as a ransom.

As you can see Christ�s atonement is soundly based on the Jewish / Hebrew Old Testament not on some �Trinitarian� Muslim conspiracy theory. . It's amazing how Muslims try to change everything around when they hijack the Bible and only choose the verses that are more favorable to their cause.

If you are worried about paganism you need to be more concerned about that Black Rock idol (al-Hajaru-l-Aswad) you bow to 5 times day and walk around in meaningless circles during your idol worship at the Haj.

Posted By: Mahdi The Seeke
Date Posted: 12 February 2013 at 10:38am

Experiential wrote:

Hello Mahdi

You misunderstand Ezekiel 18:20 and appear to think it�contradicts Christ�s atonement of sin. This verse has nothing to do with atonement of sin but rather it is about the human consequence of sin and the children not paying the debt of the fathers sin.

<?:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><O:P>�</O:P>

<O:P></O:P>If you and Abu Loren think this is just a Christian / Trinitarian / pagan invention then consider this. The atonement of Christ is based on the Jewish / Hebrew traditions and scriptures.

The Old Testament law is clear. Blood atonement is necessary. For example �

�For the life of a creature is in the blood, and I have given it to you to make atonement for yourselves on the altar; it is the blood that makes atonement for one's life�. <O:P></O:P>

�Leviticus 17:11. <O:P></O:P>

See also Leviticus 4:20, 26, 31, 35; 5:10, 13, 16, 18; 6:7; 19:22; and Numbers 15:22-28.

<O:P>�</O:P>

Jesus said in Mathew 5.17. he came to fulfill the law �Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.

<O:P>�</O:P>

In him fulfilling the Old Testament law he became the atoning Pass Over Lamb in the Book of Exodus. �The blood will be a sign for you on the houses where you are; and when I see the blood, I will pass over you. No destructive plague will touch you when I strike <?:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" /><ST1:COUNTRY-REGIoN w:st="on"><ST1:PLACE w:st="on">Egypt</ST1:PLACE></ST1:COUNTRY-REGIoN>�. Exodus 12:13

<O:P>�</O:P>

Also read Isaiah chapter 53. -

�Surely he took up our infirmities and carried our sorrows, yet we considered him stricken by God, smitten by him, and afflicted.� <O:P></O:P>

<O:P>�</O:P>

But he was pierced for our transgressions, he was crushed for our iniquities; the punishment that brought us peace was upon him, and by his wounds we are healed.� <O:P></O:P>

<O:P>�</O:P>

We all, like sheep, have gone astray, each of us has turned to his own way; and the LORD has laid on him the iniquity of us all.� <O:P></O:P>

<O:P>�</O:P>

He was oppressed and afflicted, yet he did not open his mouth; he was led like a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is silent, so he did not open his mouth.� <O:P></O:P>

By oppression [fn] and judgment he was taken away. And who can speak of his descendants? For he was cut off from the land of the living; for the transgression of my people he was stricken. [fn]� <O:P></O:P>

<O:P>�</O:P>

He was assigned a grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death, though he had done no violence, nor was any deceit in his mouth.� <O:P></O:P>

<O:P>�</O:P>

Yet it was the LORD's will to crush him and cause him to suffer, and though the LORD makes [fn] his life a guilt offering, he will see his offspring and prolong his days, and the will of the LORD will prosper in his hand.� <O:P></O:P>

<O:P>�</O:P>

After the suffering of his soul, he will see the light [of life] [fn] and be satisfied [fn]; by his knowledge [fn] my righteous servant will justify many, and he will bear their iniquities.� <O:P></O:P>

<O:P>�</O:P>

Therefore I will give him a portion among the great, [fn] and he will divide the spoils with the strong, [fn] because he poured out his life unto death, and was numbered with the transgressors. For he bore the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.��

<O:P>�</O:P>

Just like you got Ezekiel 18.20 wrong, Honeto got Psalm 49 wrong. Verse 7 is about people being unable to give a God a financial ransom. Is has nothing to do with God being made full in Christ and then giving himself as a ransom.

<O:P>�</O:P>

As you can see Christ�s atonement is soundly based on the Jewish / Hebrew Old Testament not on some �Trinitarian� Muslim conspiracy theory. . It's amazing how Muslims try to change everything around when they hijack the Bible and only choose the verses that are more favorable to their cause.

<O:P>�</O:P>

If you are worried about paganism you need to be more concerned about that Black Rock idol (al-Hajaru-l-Aswad) you bow to 5 times day and walk around in meaningless circles during your idol worship at the Haj.

<O:P>�</O:P>

so,all one has to do for atonement is kill an animal and offer the blood to God? maybe i should become a christian after all.

Posted By: Experiential
Date Posted: 14 February 2013 at 3:03am

Christ The Messiah put an end to animal sacrifice. When you ask him to be Lord of your life you become one with God through His atonement.

Posted By: Salaam_Erin
Date Posted: 19 February 2013 at 8:48am

Ezekiel and the Psalm cited were talking about sin with regard to crime and punishment, not the issue of blood atonement.

Besides, Muslims believe someone else died in Jesus' place. Even though they say nobody else can die in another's place.

Posted By: honeto
Date Posted: 20 February 2013 at 12:30pm

Experiential wrote:

Christ The Messiah put an end to animal sacrifice. When you ask him to be Lord of your life you become one with God through His atonement.

You think everything is meaningless with this blah blah. Animal sacrifice is not to pay for one's sins, it is to remember the sacrifice Abraham offered when he was tested for his faith.
How can someone be Lord or God, when he himself has a God and a Lord. Jesus said "my God and your God" in the same Bible.
"Become one with God" you said. No one can ever be God or part of God, nor become God. God is God, we and all, everyone other than him including Jesus, Moses, David, Adam and all are only his creations, his servants. We can please God by good acts he told us to do, but we can never become God if that's what you mean. If you mean by doing good as told by God, we become righteous and closer to God, then there is nothing to argue, we believe that in Islam.
Hasan

-------------
The friends of God will certainly have nothing to fear, nor will they be grieved. Al Quran 10:62

Posted By: honeto
Date Posted: 20 February 2013 at 12:34pm

Also do not forget the words of your own book:
Matthew 12:36
But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment.
Matthew 5:30
And if thy right hand offend thee, cut it off, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.
And don't try to say that "oh he was speaking this not to his followers". It won't work!

Hasan

-------------
The friends of God will certainly have nothing to fear, nor will they be grieved. Al Quran 10:62

Posted By: Webber
Date Posted: 20 February 2013 at 11:28pm

Besides, Muslims believe someone else died in Jesus' place. Even though they say nobody else can die in another's place.

LOL

Animal sacrifice is not to pay for one's sins, it is to remember the sacrifice Abraham offered when he was tested for his faith.

I wonder if Cain and Abel remembered Abraham while offering their sacrifices.

-------------
I'm a Gentile.
Numb. 6:24-26

Posted By: Experiential
Date Posted: 21 February 2013 at 9:50pm

Honeto Said

You think everything is meaningless with this blah blah. Animal sacrifice is not to pay for one's sins, it is to remember the sacrifice Abraham offered when he was tested for his faith.

My Reply

You are wrong. The blah blah you are referring to is based on the revelation made known to the Holy Prophet Moses. If you read the Tenakh (Old Testament) you will see.

Leviticus 17:11. For the life of a creature is in the blood, and I have given it to you to make atonement for yourselves on the altar; it is the blood that makes atonement for one's life.

This is a revelation far older than that of your non Jewish prophet Mohammad who came along 1900 years later. You are simply using your Muslim interpretation on a Muslim myth regarding animal sacrifice. The truth revealed by God is far older and is continuous throughout the prophets fulfilled with Jesus Christ The Messiah. Mohammad was nothing more an outsider.

Honeto Said

How can someone be Lord or God, when he himself has a God and a Lord. Jesus said "my God and your God" in the same Bible.

"Become one with God" you said. No one can ever be God or part of God, nor become God. God is God, we and all, everyone other than him including Jesus, Moses, David, Adam and all are only his creations, his servants.

My Reply

What are human beings? Just lumps of meat? We are divine. You also have God within you and can become one with Him.

The Jews of Jesus day also criticized him for claiming to be God and man.

If you read John 10:34 �

Jesus answered them, "Is it not written in your Law, 'I have said you are gods'?

Jesus is quoting the Prophet King David from Psalm82.6

"I said, 'You are "gods"; you are all sons of the Most High.'

Honeto Said

We can please God by good acts he told us to do, but we can never become God if that's what you mean. If you mean by doing good as told by God, we become righteous and closer to God, then there is nothing to argue, we believe that in Islam.

My Reply

Good religious deeds, words or behavior will never be enough for a Holy God. Do you think you can do it without being in a faith relationship with The One Most Holy God? Because you can�t. Your ablutions and good religious deeds can never be enough to tip the scales.

Posted By: Mahdi The Seeke
Date Posted: 22 February 2013 at 11:48am

Salaam_Erin wrote:

Ezekiel and the Psalm cited were talking about sin with regard to crime and punishment, not the issue of blood atonement.� Besides, Muslims believe someone else died in Jesus' place.� Even though they say nobody else can die in another's place.�

i quoted the 'nobody can die for another person's sins' part from the Bible. Who said somebody else died in Jesus place? think before you post.

Posted By: Mahdi The Seeke
Date Posted: 22 February 2013 at 11:50am

what is bllood atonement? and is it not related to sin, crime and punishment?

Posted By: Experiential
Date Posted: 27 February 2013 at 3:02pm

Mahdi The Seeke wrote:

Salaam_Erin wrote:

Ezekiel and the Psalm cited were talking about sin with regard to crime and punishment, not the issue of blood atonement. Besides, Muslims believe someone else died in Jesus' place. Even though they say nobody else can die in another's place.

what is bllood atonement? and is it not related to sin, crime and punishment?

Blood atonement is essentially about being made clean and whole. Yes it is related to sin, crime and punishment but not in relation to the verse from Ezekiel at the beginning of this thread that you quoted out of context. (which you have a bad habit of doing)

Posted By: Mahdi The Seeke
Date Posted: 28 February 2013 at 10:16am

Experiential wrote:

Mahdi The Seeke wrote:

what is bllood atonement? and is it not related to sin, crime and punishment?

what is the context of the verses i quoted. tell me more about blood atonement as you understand it.

Posted By: Webber
Date Posted: 01 March 2013 at 8:34am

Hi Mahdi,

So I'm reading this thread thinking the chapter is quite clear. It says what it says and now you and I both know that we cannot save our father, nor our son from "death" if they choose the wrong path, and we won't cause them any grief if we stray. Was trying to figure out what your point was. The real point of the chapter is in the quote below.

^{30 �Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, every one according to his ways,� says the Lord God. �Repent, and turn from all your transgressions, so that iniquity will not be your ruin. ³¹Cast away from you all the transgressions which you have committed, and get yourselves a new heart and a new spirit. For why should you die, O house of Israel? ³²For I have no pleasure in the death of one who dies,� says the Lord God. �Therefore turn and live!�}

This is the verse the chapter is leading up to. Of course "die", and "live" mean die and go to hell, or die and go to heaven.

There's no mention of atonement, no mention of sacrifice, the key word is repent. You repent, turn from your sins, get yourself a new heart, and a new spirit. <-----now that's interesting...

I'm thinking the title of this thread was supposed to be "No Jesus can die for another man's sins, but then you use the Israelites as an example. It's like saying no car can go faster than 15 kph because a horse and buggy couldn't, 100s of yrs ago...(for starters)

I enjoy your posts and ability to use the art of confusion to lead people on. It becomes quite informative, in an off topic way, but bring out more topics that could be discussed, other than the same ole same ole.

Just to clairify...are you talking the Israelites, or about Jesus?

If so, a "Jesus" verse is required.

Found this yet?

For I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children to the third and fourth generations.

Now what?

On the subject of sacrifice and atonement, I have a Muslim buddy who sends money home to buy a goat, or two for some traditional ritual thing that somehow relates back to his personal sacrifice and atonement. Maybe someone here has more details.

-------------
I'm a Gentile.
Numb. 6:24-26

Posted By: Experiential
Date Posted: 02 March 2013 at 3:15pm

Ezekiel Chapter 18 was what you quoted. It is about individuals being accountable for their own sin. Nothing to do with the atonement of Christ Jesus.

In regards to what is atonement and why it is necessary? Through the sin of Adam and Eve, Satan has �legal� right over the human race. (Genesis Chapter 3).

Of course God as an all powerful God could simply over rule any rights that Satan has but because he is all righteous God will remain righteous even to Satan.

All the old pagan and Jewish blood sacrifices (Book of Leviticus) were just a picture or image of the real thing that was to come through the promised Christ Jesus The Messiah.

God offered payment of ransom to Satan through coming in human form and shedding his own blood to pay the ransom. (Acts 26.18)

His blood was payment to Satans legitimate right but also the redemption and remission of sin. (Leviticus 17.11)

However there was more to atonement than just payment for sin. It�s also about being made whole. (Malachi 2:15).

What Christ Jesus The Messiah did is allow a blood to blood relationship between God and us. This blood to blood or flesh to flesh relationship permeates to the level of our DNA. That�s why Jesus did healing miracles, so as to demonstrate this resurrecting power.

And because of this we have the assurance of resurrection at death but also wholeness and power in this life. (John 10.10)

God is now not separated from humanity but has become part of us and we can become part of him.

We are not just redeemed in the spirit but also in an earthy, organic manner as well. Atonement and redemption is of the spirit but also of the flesh, our bodies, mind, sexuality etc.

Posted By: Mahdi The Seeke
Date Posted: 04 March 2013 at 11:00pm

Webber wrote:

Hi Mahdi,

�

30 �Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, every one according to his ways,� says the Lord God. �Repent, and turn from all your transgressions, so that iniquity will not be your ruin. 31 Cast away from you all the transgressions which you have committed, and get yourselves a new heart and a new spirit. For why should you die, O house of Israel? 32 For I have no pleasure in the death of one who dies,� says the Lord God. �Therefore turn and live!�

This is the verse the chapter is leading up to. Of course "die", and "live" mean die and go to hell, or die and go to heaven.

�

There's no mention of atonement, no mention of sacrifice, the key word is repent. You repent, turn from your sins, get yourself a new heart, and a new spirit. <-----now that's interesting...

�

I'm thinking the title of this thread was supposed to be "No Jesus can die for another man's sins, but then you use the Israelites as an example. It's like saying no car can go faster than 15 kph because a horse and buggy couldn't, 100s of yrs ago...(for starters)

�

I enjoy your posts and ability to use the art of confusion to lead people on. It becomes quite informative, in an off topic way, but bring out more topics that could be discussed, other than the same ole same ole.

�

Just to clairify...are you talking the Israelites, or about Jesus?�

If so, a "Jesus" verse is required.

�

Found this yet?

For I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children to the third and fourth generations.

Now what?�

�

On the subject of sacrifice and atonement, I have a Muslim buddy who sends money home to buy a goat, or two for some traditional ritual thing that somehow relates back to his personal sacrifice and atonement. Maybe someone here has more details.

�

�

�

you got my point, even if you may not realise it yet.

1.Nobody can take on the sins of another.Ezekiel 18:20 New Living Translation (�2007) The person who sins is the one who will die

2.There is no need for anybody to die to save another. Each person can save themselves by repenting individually.
21 �But if a wicked person turns away from all the sins they have committed and keeps all my decrees and does what is just and right, that person will surely live; they will not die.

In Islam, it is the same and more consistent with the way things have always been with regard to repentance and salvation.

Found this yet? For I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children to the third and fourth generations. Now what?

Contradiction, as you correctly point out. I already posted a topic related to this exactly titled ' God of the Bible and punishment.'

Posted By: Experiential
Date Posted: 05 March 2013 at 2:15am

But he was pierced for our transgressions, he was crushed for our iniquities; the punishment that brought us peace was on him, and by his wounds we are healed.

Isaiah 53:5

Posted By: Webber
Date Posted: 05 March 2013 at 7:00am

Contradiction, as you correctly point out. I already posted a topic related to this exactly titled ' God of the Bible and punishment.'

lol

There is a point to be made tho and whether you realize it or not it's pertinent, not so much to the Christians here, but for the ones with the big gaudy crosses, etc. hip hop kinda. The new theology is, "Jesus saves man!" That's about the extent of what they know.

Regardless of whether your religion tells you to go through Jesus or around Him, personnal repentance is required.

Do Christians actually float around giving you the impression they are saved only cuz Jesus died?

-------------
I'm a Gentile.
Numb. 6:24-26

Posted By: Mahdi The Seeke
Date Posted: 06 March 2013 at 11:11am

Webber wrote:

Contradiction, as you correctly point out. I already posted a topic related to this exactly titled ' God of the Bible and punishment.'

�

lol

�

Regardless of whether your religion tells you to go through Jesus or around Him, personnal repentance is required.

�

Do Christians actually float around giving you the impression they are saved only cuz Jesus died?

Do Christians actually float around giving you the impression they are saved only cuz Jesus died?
yes

Posted By: Mahdi The Seeke
Date Posted: 06 March 2013 at 11:11am

Experiential wrote:

But he was pierced for our transgressions, he was crushed for our iniquities; the punishment that brought us peace was on him, and by his wounds we are healed.� <?:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><o:p></o:p>

Isaiah �53:5

past tense

Posted By: Mahdi The Seeke
Date Posted: 06 March 2013 at 12:39pm

Experiential wrote:

Ezekiel Chapter 18 was what you quoted. It is about individuals being accountable for their own sin. Nothing to do with the atonement of Christ Jesus.

<?:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><o:p>�</o:p>

In regards to what is atonement and why it is necessary? Through the sin of Adam and Eve, Satan has �legal� right over the human race. (Genesis Chapter 3).

Of course God as an all powerful God could simply over rule any rights that Satan has but because he is all righteous God will remain righteous even to Satan.

<o:p>�</o:p>

All the old pagan and Jewish blood sacrifices (Book of Leviticus) were just a picture or image of the real thing that was to come through the promised Christ Jesus The Messiah.

<o:p>�</o:p>

God offered payment of ransom to Satan through coming in human form and shedding his own blood to pay the ransom. (Acts 26.18)

His blood was payment to Satans legitimate right but also the redemption and remission of sin. (Leviticus 17.11)

<o:p>�</o:p>

However there was more to atonement than just payment for sin. It�s also about being made whole. (Malachi 2:15).

What Christ Jesus The Messiah did is allow a blood to blood relationship between God and us. This blood to blood or flesh to flesh relationship permeates to the level of our DNA. That�s why Jesus did healing miracles, so as to demonstrate this resurrecting power.

And because of this we have the assurance of resurrection at death but also wholeness and power in this life. (John 10.10)

<o:p>�</o:p>

God is now not separated from humanity but has become part of us and we can become part of him.

<o:p>�</o:p>

We are not just redeemed in the spirit but also in an earthy, organic manner as well. Atonement and redemption is of the spirit but also of the flesh, our bodies, mind, sexuality etc.

Ezekiel Chapter 18 was what you quoted. It is about individuals being accountable for their own sin.

exactly. so no need for Jesus. stop trying to stick him with the bill of your transgressions.

Posted By: Mahdi The Seeke
Date Posted: 06 March 2013 at 12:46pm

<?:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><o:p>�</o:p>

<o:p>�</o:p>

His blood was payment to Satans legitimate right but also the redemption and remission of sin. (Leviticus 17.11)

<o:p>�</o:p>

However there was more to atonement than just payment for sin. It�s also about being made whole. (Malachi 2:15).

<o:p>�</o:p>

God is now not separated from humanity but has become part of us and we can become part of him.

<o:p>�</o:p>

you had me at His blood was payment to Satans legitimate right but also the redemption and remission of sin. payment to satan? are you kidding me? C'mon now, S.E.R.I.O.U.S.L.Y? i thought satan's payment was eternity in hell.

Posted By: Experiential
Date Posted: 10 March 2013 at 10:33pm

Mahdi Said

Past tense (Isaiah 53 )

My Reply

Yes. This is interesting. Firstly, these conditions in Isaiah 52 and 53 were not fulfilled in any Jewish figure before Isaiah wrote the verse. So who is it about?

Secondly notice the vision actually starts in the future tense in 52:13 and then moves again in the future tense in 52.10-12 and then past tense again in 53 and future tense again at the end of 53.

This moving of tenses is referred to as �prophetic perfect� and is a well-known feature in the prophetic books of the Tanach (Old Testament). The reason for using the �prophetic perfect� can be understood in that a prophet can have a vision that is so real that he describes it as he sees it with his own eyes as if it has already happened, using the past tense instead of the future.

The prophets often move between the past and the future tenses while describing the same event. See, for example, Jeremiah 4.22 -26 (describing the devastation in the past tense) and Jeremiah 4:27-28 (using the future tense).

Isaiah was a prophet, and would have been understood at the time to be describing future events despite his use of the perfect tense. For example, Micaiah the prophet spoke in the past tense, in 1 Kings 22:17 about the death of Ahab, which Ahab recognized it as a prediction of the future. As I said, this was common prophetic style.

This is indicative of the timeless quality of the promises. It is eternal. Isaiah is recording it as both a past agreement and a future fulfillment. Prophecy can refer to the past, present or future. A Biblical prophet may speak in the past tense, but the pronouncement can apply also to the future.

Other examples for this can also be found. The Bible says that we have been saved (Ephesians 2:8), that we are being saved (1 Corinthians 1:18), and that we will be saved (1 Corinthians 3:15). Even so, there is a sense in which we have been healed, are being healed, and one day will be healed.

God sees time as one piece ("I am ... the beginning and the end"), while we humans see it as yesterday, today, and tomorrow. God�s ultimate healing is called �resurrection,� and it is a glorious promise to every one.

Mahdi Said

You had me at His blood was payment to Satans legitimate right but also the redemption and remission of sin. payment to satan? are you kidding me? C'mon now, S.E.R.I.O.U.S.L.Y? i thought satan's payment was eternity in hell.

My Reply

Yes you are correct Satans payment is eternity in hell. But that is not Gods will for humanity. Why do you think the world is as evil as it is? Obviously Satan has influence and power ? If you read Genesis and the outcome of Adam and Eve coming under Satans influence then its obvious.

Ephesians 6:12 makes it clear that Satan rules the earth.

For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms.

And Acts 26.18 also mentions the power of Satan -

to open their eyes and turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God,

Mahdi Said

Ezekiel Chapter 18 was what you quoted. It is about individuals being accountable for their own sin.

exactly. so no need for Jesus. stop trying to stick him with the bill of your transgressions.

My Reply

Once again you are taking one verse out of context from the whole Bible. Everyone will be accountable for their own sin on the Day of Judgment. But if you read the whole Bible rather tan just taking one verse in isolation and out of context you will see that God has provided a way out through The Messiah Christ Jesus. Read the whole Bible. This is a bad habit of yours.

Posted By: honeto
Date Posted: 26 March 2013 at 3:26pm

Experiential wrote:

Honeto Said<?:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><O:P></O:P>

You think everything is meaningless with this blah blah. Animal sacrifice is not to pay for one's sins, it is to remember the sacrifice Abraham offered when he was tested for his faith.

My Reply<O:P></O:P>

You are wrong. The blah blah you are referring to is based on the revelation made known to the Holy Prophet Moses. If you read the Tenakh (Old Testament) you will see.

<O:P>�</O:P>

Leviticus 17:11. For the life of a creature is in the blood, and I have given it to you to make atonement for yourselves on the altar; it is the blood that makes atonement for one's life.� <O:P></O:P>

<O:P>�</O:P>

This is a revelation far older than that of your non Jewish prophet Mohammad who came along 1900 years later. You are simply using your Muslim interpretation on a Muslim myth regarding animal sacrifice. The truth revealed by God is far older and is continuous throughout the prophets fulfilled with Jesus Christ The Messiah. �Mohammad was nothing more an outsider.

<O:P>�</O:P>

<O:P></O:P>�

Honeto Said<O:P></O:P>

How can someone be Lord or God, when he himself has a God and a Lord. Jesus said "my God and your God" in the same Bible.

"Become one with God" you said. No one can ever be God or part of God, nor become God. God is God, we and all, everyone other than him including Jesus, Moses, David, Adam and all are only his creations, his servants.

My Reply<O:P></O:P>

What are human beings? Just lumps of meat? We are divine. �You also have God within you and can become one with Him.

<O:P>�</O:P>

The Jews of Jesus day also criticized him for claiming to be God and man.

If you read John 10:34 �<O:P></O:P>

Jesus answered them, "Is it not written in your Law, 'I have said you are gods'?<O:P></O:P>

<O:P>�</O:P>

Jesus is quoting the Prophet King David from Psalm82.6

<O:P>�</O:P>

"I said, 'You are "gods"; you are all sons of the Most High.'� <O:P></O:P>

<O:P>�</O:P>

Honeto Said<O:P></O:P>

We can please God by good acts he told us to do, but we can never become God if that's what you mean. If you mean by doing good as told by God, we become righteous and closer to God, then there is nothing to argue, we believe that in Islam. <O:P></O:P>

My Reply<O:P></O:P>

Good religious deeds, words or behavior will never be enough for a Holy God. Do you think you can do it without being in a faith relationship with The One Most Holy God? Because you can�t. Your ablutions and good religious deeds can never be enough to tip the scales.

Sorry I was away for a while to answer your post, but here I am.
Animal sacrifice according to the Final Testament of God, the Quran does not pay for sins. And I believe that is the final word for me. We live in time that is under the jurisdiction of the Quran, not Gospel, not Torah. And apart from that their (Torah and Gospel's)authenticity and reliability as an unaltered word of God is questionable. Even for those who want to take things comparatively the Quran's account still prevails.
"It is neither their flesh nor their blood that reaches Allah; it is your piety that reaches Him." (Qur'an 22:37)"

Don't forget that in the Gospel Jesus is quoted to have said that if your hand commits a sin, cut it off. It will be better for you so your whole body wouldn't have to be thrown into the fire. He could have said what you say, to shed the blood of an animal for your sins, but he did not.

Hasan

-------------
The friends of God will certainly have nothing to fear, nor will they be grieved. Al Quran 10:62

Posted By: Mahdi The Seeke
Date Posted: 27 March 2013 at 1:17am

isaiah 52 and 53 are about the nation of Israel.

Posted By: Mahdi The Seeke
Date Posted: 27 March 2013 at 1:19am

Yes you are correct Satans
payment is eternity in hell. then stop saying stuff that does not make sense. Like
Ephesians 6:12 makes it clear that Satan rules the earth.

Now satan, not God, rules the world. Hmmmm. I would immediately discard any book that said that, i don't know about you.

Posted By: Experiential
Date Posted: 06 April 2013 at 7:59pm

Honeto Said

Animal sacrifice according to the Final Testament of God, the Quran does not pay for sins. And I believe that is the final word for me.

We live in time that is under the jurisdiction of the Quran, not Gospel, not Torah. And apart from that their (Torah and Gospel's)authenticity and reliability as an unaltered word of God is questionable.

My Reply

There is only one Final testament and that is what Christ Jesus the Messiah accomplished on the cross.

You say the Torah and Injils authenticity and reliability as an unaltered word of God is questionable. Ive argued this one many times and no Muslim I have discussed this with has been able to prove this is the case. I have never received an adequate rebuttal to my proof that the Bible is reliable.

What is your jurisdiction of the Quaran based on ? Ive never discussed with a Muslim who has been able to answer the lack of authenticity and reliability regarding the Quran in the context of its scientific absurdities, contradictions, repetitions and the fact that most Muslims cant even read Arabic to be able to read the �word of God�.

Problems found with the earliest Quaran found in Sanaa Yemen in the 1970s is evidence that the Quaran is a man made document.

Honeto Said

Even for those who want to take things comparatively the Quran's account still prevails.

"It is neither their flesh nor their blood that reaches Allah; it is your piety that reaches Him." (Qur'an 22:37)"

My Reply

Quoting the Quran means nothing to me. It is a later message that does not conform to the Torah and Injil which are more ancient and credible to its roots. The Quran is nothing but an arrogant and ignorant upstart not even related to the ancient family of prophesy. Your piety can never be good enough to meet Gods standards.

Honeto Said

Don't forget that in the Gospel Jesus is quoted to have said that if your hand commits a sin, cut it off. It will be better for you so your whole body wouldn't have to be thrown into the fire. He could have said what you say, to shed the blood of an animal for your sins, but he did not.

My Reply

The Old Testament and Injil are clear. What are necessary are blood sacrifice and after that a heart that is soft and open to God. Behavior in keeping with this is obviously necessary as the verse about the hand illustrates. But it is the blood sacrifice that continues to atone for sin in an ongoing way. And Jesus did say blood sacrifice is the way when he raised the cup of wine at his last Passover meal and said "this is my blood for you ". Your piety will never be enough.

Posted By: Experiential
Date Posted: 06 April 2013 at 8:01pm

Mahdi The Seeke wrote:

isaiah 52 and 53 are about the nation of Israel.

You are wrong for the following reasons �

The servant of Isaiah 53 is an innocent and guiltless sufferer. Israel is never described as sinless. See for example Isaiah 1:4.

The figure described in Isaiah 53 suffers, dies, and rises again to atone for his people's sins. The Hebrew word used in Isaiah 53:10 for "sin-offering" is "asham," which is a technical term meaning "sin-offering."

See how it is used in Leviticus chapters 5 and 6. Isaiah 53 describes a sinless and

perfect sacrificial lamb who takes upon himself the sins of others so that they

might be forgiven.

Can anyone really claim that the terrible suffering of the Jewish people, however

undeserved and unjust, atones for the sins of the world?

Whoever Isaiah 53 speaks of, the figure described suffers and dies in order to

provide a legal payment for sin so that others can be forgiven. This cannot be true

of the Jewish people as a whole, or of any other mere human.

The prophet speaking is Isaiah himself, who says the sufferer was punished for "the transgression of my people," according to verse 8. Who are the people of Isaiah? Israel. So the sufferer of Isaiah 53 suffered for Israel. So how could he be Israel?

The figure of Isaiah 53 dies and is buried according to verses 8 and 9. The people of Israel have never died as a whole. They have been out of the land on two occasions and have returned, but they have never ceased to be among the living. Yet Jesus died, was buried, and rose again.

Of whom does Isaiah speak? He speaks of the Messiah, as many ancient rabbis concluded. The second verse of Isaiah 53 makes it crystal clear. The figure grows up as "a young plant, and like a root out of dry ground." The shoot springing up is beyond reasonable doubt a reference to the Messiah, and, in fact, it is a common Messianic reference in Isaiah and elsewhere.

Posted By: Experiential
Date Posted: 06 April 2013 at 8:04pm

Mahdi The Seeke wrote:

Yes you are correct Satans
payment is eternity in hell. then stop saying stuff that does not make sense. Like
Ephesians 6:12 makes it clear that Satan rules the earth.

Now satan, not God, rules the world. Hmmmm. I would immediately discard any book that said that, i don't know about you.

As you see from the book of Genesis in the Torah and Ephesians 6.12 from the Injil The world is ultimately Gods but under Satan�s temporary control.

Ephesians 6.12

Have you watched the news lately. Lots of problems in the world? Not exactly perfect is it? God ultimately rules but Satan has temporary control and influence.

Makes sense to me. Anyway I�d discard a book like the Quran that says the sun sets in a muddy pond !

Posted By: Mahdi The Seeke
Date Posted: 07 April 2013 at 10:20am

Experiential wrote:

Mahdi The Seeke wrote:

isaiah 52 and 53 are about the nation of Israel.

You are wrong for the following reasons �

<?:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><o:p> </o:p>

<UL style="MARGIN-TOP: 0in" =disc>
<LI style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; mso-list: l0 level1 lfo1; tab-stops: list .5in" =Msonormal>The servant of Isaiah 53 is an innocent and guiltless sufferer. <?:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" /><st1:country-region w:st="on"><st1:place w:st="on">Israel</st1:place></st1:country-region> is never described as sinless. See for example Isaiah 1:4.
<o:p> </o:p>

<UL style="MARGIN-TOP: 0in" =disc>
<LI style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; mso-list: l0 level1 lfo1; tab-stops: list .5in" =Msonormal>The figure described in Isaiah 53 suffers, dies, and rises again to atone for his people's sins. The Hebrew word used in Isaiah 53:10 for "sin-offering" is "asham," which is a technical term meaning "sin-offering."
 See how it is used in Leviticus chapters 5 and 6. Isaiah 53 describes a sinless and

perfect sacrificial lamb who takes upon himself the sins of others so that they

might be forgiven.

Can anyone really claim that the terrible suffering of the Jewish people, however

undeserved and unjust, atones for the sins of the world?

Whoever Isaiah 53 speaks of, the figure described suffers and dies in order to

provide a legal payment for sin so that others can be forgiven. This cannot be true

of the Jewish people as a whole, or of any other mere human.

<o:p> </o:p>

<UL style="MARGIN-TOP: 0in" =disc>
<LI style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; mso-list: l0 level1 lfo1; tab-stops: list .5in" =Msonormal>The prophet speaking is Isaiah himself, who says the sufferer was punished for "the transgression of my people," according to verse 8. Who are the people of Isaiah? <st1:country-region w:st="on"><st1:place w:st="on">Israel</st1:place></st1:country-region>. So the sufferer of Isaiah 53 suffered for <st1:country-region w:st="on"><st1:place w:st="on">Israel</st1:place></st1:country-region>. So how could he be <st1:country-region w:st="on"><st1:place w:st="on">Israel</st1:place></st1:country-region>?
<o:p> </o:p>

<UL style="MARGIN-TOP: 0in" =disc>
<LI style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; mso-list: l0 level1 lfo1; tab-stops: list .5in" =Msonormal>The figure of Isaiah 53 dies and is buried according to verses 8 and 9. The people of <st1:country-region w:st="on"><st1:place w:st="on">Israel</st1:place></st1:country-region> have never died as a whole. They have been out of the land on two occasions and have returned, but they have never ceased to be among the living. Yet Jesus died, was buried, and rose again.
<o:p> </o:p>

<UL style="MARGIN-TOP: 0in" =disc>
<LI style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; mso-list: l0 level1 lfo1; tab-stops: list .5in" =Msonormal>Of whom does Isaiah speak? He speaks of the Messiah, as many ancient rabbis concluded. The second verse of Isaiah 53 makes it crystal clear. The figure grows up as "a young plant, and like a root out of dry ground." The shoot springing up is beyond reasonable doubt a reference to the Messiah, and, in fact, it is a common Messianic reference in Isaiah and elsewhere.
<o:p> </o:p>

<o:p> </o:p>

ask any jew, the people to whom the hebrew Bible was revealed, who the suffering servant is.

Posted By: Mahdi The Seeke
Date Posted: 07 April 2013 at 10:29am

Experiential wrote:

Mahdi The Seeke wrote:

isaiah 52 and 53 are about the nation of Israel.

You are wrong for the following reasons �

<?:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><o:p> </o:p>

might be forgiven.

undeserved and unjust, atones for the sins of the world?

of the Jewish people as a whole, or of any other mere human.

<o:p> </o:p>

<UL style="MARGIN-TOP: 0in" =disc>
<LI style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; mso-list: l0 level1 lfo1; tab-stops: list .5in" =Msonormal>The figure of Isaiah 53 dies and is buried according to verses 8 and 9. The people of <st1:country-region w:st="on"><st1:place w:st="on">Israel</st1:place></st1:country-region> have never died as a whole. They have been out of the land on two occasions and have returned, but they have never ceased to be among the living. Yet Jesus died, was buried, and rose again.
<o:p> </o:p>

<o:p> </o:p>

�You are My servant, O Israel� (isaiah 41:8)

Posted By: Experiential
Date Posted: 09 April 2013 at 10:09pm

Mahdi Said

ask any jew, the people to whom the hebrew Bible was revealed, who the suffering servant is.

My Reply

All the first believers were Jews. Jesus was a Jew. Also here are some links to Mesianic believers (Jewish Christians)

http://www.trumpetofsalvation.org/jacob-damkani/

http://www.blessisrael.com/Kehilot.html -

Mahdi Said

�You are My servant, O Israel� (isaiah 41:8)

My Reply

Yes so? This has no relation to Isaiah 52 and 53. Isaiah 52 and 53 are obviously about a person not a nation .eg. Isaiah 52.14

Just as there were many who were appalled at him,

his appearance was so disfigured beyond that of any human being and his form marred beyond human likeness.

Posted By: Mahdi The Seeke
Date Posted: 13 April 2013 at 5:17am

Experiential wrote:

Mahdi Said<?:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><o:p></o:p>

ask any jew, the people to whom the hebrew Bible was revealed, who the suffering servant is.

My Reply<o:p></o:p>

All the first believers were Jews. Jesus was a Jew. Also here are some links to Mesianic believers (Jewish Christians)

<o:p> </o:p>

http://www.trumpetofsalvation.org/jacob-damkani/

<o:p> </o:p>

http://www.blessisrael.com/Kehilot.html - [COLOR=#800080 size=3 face="Times New Roman - http://www.blessisrael.com/Kehilot.html[/COLOR -

<o:p> </o:p>

Mahdi Said<o:p></o:p>

�You are My servant, O Israel� (isaiah 41:8)

My Reply<o:p></o:p>

Yes so? This has no relation to Isaiah 52 and 53. Isaiah 52 and 53 are obviously about a person not a nation .eg. Isaiah 52.14

<o:p> </o:p>

Just as there were many who were appalled at him, <o:p></o:p>

his appearance was so disfigured beyond that of any human being and his form marred beyond human likeness.<o:p></o:p>

israel is referred to as 1 person in other places in the Bible e.g ezekiel 23 so your objection is unfounded

Posted By: Experiential
Date Posted: 17 April 2013 at 9:33pm

Mahdi Said

Israel is referred to as 1 person in other places in the Bible e.g Ezekiel 23 so your objection is unfounded

My Reply

Considering there was approximately a 100 year time gap between both books and they were written by different authors there is no connection.

The Messiah being referred to in Isaiah is obviously a man not a nation. See below �

Just as there were many who were appalled at him, his appearance was so disfigured beyond that of any human being and his form marred beyond human likeness �

Isaiah 52:14

He was despised and rejected by mankind, (a man איש 'iysh man, male)

of suffering �

Isaiah 53:3

Posted By: Mahdi The Seeke
Date Posted: 19 April 2013 at 6:03am

<?:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" /><st1:place w:st="on"><st1:country-region w:st="on">Israel</st1:country-region></st1:place> is referred to as 1 person in other places in the Bible e.g Ezekiel 23 so your objection is unfounded

<o:p>�</o:p>

My Reply<o:p></o:p>

Considering there was approximately a 100 year time gap between both books and they were written by different authors there is no connection.

<o:p>�</o:p>

The Messiah being referred to in Isaiah is obviously a man not a nation. See below �

<o:p>�</o:p>

Just as there were many who were appalled at him, �his appearance was so disfigured beyond that of any human being and his form marred beyond human likeness � <o:p></o:p>

Isaiah 52:14

<o:p>�</o:p>

He was despised and rejected by mankind, (a man איש 'iysh man, male)<o:p></o:p>

of suffering �<o:p></o:p>

Isaiah 53:3

Considering there was approximately a 100 year time gap between both books and they were written by different authors there is no connection.
i'll remember to use this one. i am sure it will come in handy some day soon.