Interfaith Dialogue - Did God turn his back on Israel and Islam?

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Did God turn his back on Israel and Islam?

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Category: Religion - Islam
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Topic: Did God turn his back on Israel and Islam?

Posted By: Kish
Subject: Did God turn his back on Israel and Islam?
Date Posted: 18 September 2012 at 4:30pm

Yes! (Matthew 21:43) This is why I say to YOU, The kingdom of God will be taken from YOU . . .

(Matthew 23:37-38) �Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the killer of the prophets and stoner of those sent forth to her,�how often I wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks together under her wings! But YOU people did not want it. ³⁸ Look! YOUR house is abandoned to YOU.

It was Israel or Jews and Islam or Ishmael that did not want it. That is why God turned his back on them.

Replies:

Posted By: honeto
Date Posted: 19 September 2012 at 11:05am

Kish,
Islam means submission to the will of God. Explain please how God will turn His back on that?
Hasan

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The friends of God will certainly have nothing to fear, nor will they be grieved. Al Quran 10:62

Posted By: Friendship
Date Posted: 19 September 2012 at 2:15pm

Assalamu alaika Kish.

You are correct. It was only the Levites that Allah did not turn His back against them for they went to Madina awaiting the arrival of that Messiah. But as the Decree of Allah preceded their intentions they did not get it. This explains the absolute Authority of Allah. He does what he likes and not questions Him.
See Qur'an 6:89; 47:38.
How do you respond to leviticus 26:40-41? Is this not leading to universality of the Qur'an? Are the Children of Israel then excluded from becoming leaders again?

Friendship.

Posted By: Kish
Date Posted: 19 September 2012 at 5:03pm

honeto wrote:

Kish,
Islam means submission to the will of God. Explain please how God will turn His back on that?

Well, did the Jews or Islam submit to God�s will? No; not by killing God�s prophets and denying that Jesus fulfilled the Law by being crucified. Did Ishmael submit to God�s will? No. He did not follow the God of Abraham, the God his father served.

Can you show me where Ishmael submitted to God that would help me a lot?

How could people who had truly submitted to God and looked to him for guidance do such a thing? So, just because an individual claim to worship God it is no guarantee that he has really submitted to God�s rule.

Posted By: Friendship
Date Posted: 19 September 2012 at 11:02pm

Assalamu alaikum.

Kish! Please stop generalizing the past. The Qur'an gives details of the offenses committed by the Children of Israel from the exodus to the death of Moses. They were punished and forgiven by Allah as a lesson and a warning for you and me. Understand that the jews never intended to disobey Allah delibarately accoording to the Qur'an. Read carefully the Torah and the further explanation given in the Qur'an, not the Greek interpretation distorting the Scriptures and causing the upheavels you are talking about.
There is no way out! The Torah and the Qur'an must be amulgamated into one way of life.
If Ishmael did not submit to G-d while in Palestine, he submitted to Him while in that Southern Desert - Makka. The Qur'an is silent on his life in Palestine for Jewish Rabbi told me that he went back and settled in Palestine and buried Abraham. Muhammad never disputed with the Jews! This is the true Islam.
The Qur'an mentions that mere verbal belief does not save one from hellfire. The sunna of Muhammad confirms that. The one who follows Muhammad openly is the one who submitted to G-d. Do not be deceived by the followers of Muhammad of this century. They are just jokers and play boys.
Before you make any statement on the Jews, please get the facts from them. Do not tell lies.

Friendship.

Posted By: Kish
Date Posted: 21 September 2012 at 11:58am

friendship wrote:

If Ishmael did not submit to G-d while in Palestine, he submitted to Him while in that Southern Desert - Makka.

Convince us who are not Muslim through references and proof that he submitted to Allah because he did not submit to God in Palestine.

friendship wrote:

The one who follows Muhammad openly is the one who submitted to G-d.

Can you show us from the Injil that the one who follows Muhammad is submitting to God? Because this in direct opposition to what Jesus is saying in the Injil. You and I know very well that Jesus ssid to follow him and no one else, it is written.

�I (Jesus) set the pattern for you.� ( http://wol.jw.org/en/wol/bc/r1/lp-e/2002603/3/0 - �Continue following me.� ( http://wol.jw.org/en/wol/bc/r1/lp-e/1102007061/29/0 - �All authority http://wol.jw.org/en/wol/fn/r1/lp-e/1001060043/291 - And you say follow Muhammad after what Jesus and God had already said, really? You stand on slippery ground by making that statement.

Say: "People of the Book, you do not stand on anything, until you perform the Torah and the Gospel [Injil], and what was sent down to you from your Lord." ... S. 5:68 Arberry

Say (O Muhammad SAW)] "Shall I seek a judge other than Allah while it is He Who has sent down unto you the Book (The Qur'an), explained in detail." Those unto whom We gave the Scripture [the Taurat (Torah) and the Injeel (Gospel)] know that it is revealed from your Lord in truth. So be not you of those who doubt. S. 6:114 Al-Hilali & Khan

Even your Quran openly acknowledges the important of obeying the Injil (Gospel) and Muslims are telling people not to, wow!

friendship wrote:

Do not be deceived by the followers of Muhammad of this century.

I agree because Muhammad earlier followers believed the Injil It was only until Ibn-Khazem in 1064 made the accusation against the corruption of the Scriptures without any historical facts to prove it.

Posted By: Friendship
Date Posted: 22 September 2012 at 8:53am

Assalamu alaika Matt.

Ibn Hazeem al-Andalusia is one of our gretaest Muslim scholars who does not miss a chance in telling the truth. He has hit on the followers of Muhammad more than the followers of Jesus. No Muslim blame the followers of Jesus son of Maryam. Wea re repating and emphasizing what Allah has said: He has no son for that is not befitting of him. Everything in the heavens and earth belongs to him and all msut submit to Him. This is indeed what the Torah said. So Moses and Muhammad spoke in one amplitude of vibration, tone and smphony.

I have all the books written by ibn Hazm whose full name is Abi Muhammad Aliyu bin Ahmad bin Sa'id bin Hazm Zhiri Andalusia.

Friendship.

Posted By: Kish
Date Posted: 22 September 2012 at 7:43pm

. . . and yet you, Ibn or anyone else still have any proof or show any references. Is that's why you don't answer the questions I ask? Usually that means you don't have an answer so instead you talk about books and names.

Are you able to answer the questions about Ishmael?

Posted By: Abu Loren
Date Posted: 22 September 2012 at 8:32pm

Mr. Kish I think you are really confused. The verse you've quoted is specifically for the Children of Israel and it seems you don't really know much about Ishmael either.

Sahih International
And Ishmael and Elisha and Jonah and Lot - and all [of them] We preferred over the worlds.
6:86

And mention in the Book, Ishmael. Indeed, he was true to his promise, and he was a messenger and a prophet.

38:48And remember Ishmael, Elisha and Dhul-Kifl, and all are among the outstanding.
19:54

Posted By: nothing
Date Posted: 23 September 2012 at 10:18am

Kish wrote:

Yes! (Matthew 21:43) This is why I say to YOU, The kingdom of God will be taken from YOU . . .

Kish, hopefully it won't take much of your time if you kindly explain the short version of what was the The kingdom of God before taken away. Remember most muslims are not familiar with this terminology. Fair enough?

Posted By: Friendship
Date Posted: 24 September 2012 at 10:53pm

Assalamu alaika Kish.

First of all I never called any human being with a name other than a MUSLIM!. It is allowed to describe one according to his actions. Thus Allah described those whom He took covenant with but broke that covenant as Christians.

As to the proof of Ishamel, it is in the Qur'an 2:125-129;6: 86; 19: 54 etc. If according to the rabbis Ishmael took part in the burial of his father, was burial a command from Allah or not? Note that the followers of Muhammad and the children of Israel have the same instructions in the matter of burial.

There is a lot of literature showing that Islam : that is the jewish practice and the Sunna are the same.

You deny the Injeel version of the Qur'an. So what is the use of telling you what Allah says? Is not regarding Allah as a liar?

Please let us argue and follow the Right way and enjoy the world. There is no justification in accusing Muhammad of spreading, teaching and preaching terrorism, disquiet and disunity when the few who udnerstood him are hated and not listened at. Kish! out of the 636,000 body of the Children of Israel only about 22,000 read the Torah! Out of that number only Ohiliob and Bethalel were taught the use of iron, silver bronze and gold after the Exodus. Please let us go by the examples in the Torah. Can't you see that the 3 million Muslims attending pilgrimage will all return to their land without any reward?

Allah has not son! Otherwise there will be no paradise and hell!

Friendship.

Posted By: Kish
Date Posted: 25 September 2012 at 10:49am

abu loren wrote:

The verse you've quoted is specifically for the Children of Israel . . .

Yes, initially Israel and secondly anyone who is claiming the Kingdom covenant or Abraham�s God; Israelis, Ishmaelite�s, etc. . . .

After Ishmael and Hagar was let go and not ever to return to Abraham�s home everyone�s hand was against them, including God. In time the Ishmaelite�s HATED the God of Abraham even down till this day it seems. All this is historically proven and very well documented.

Ishmael may have been a messenger of the prophet but he or anyone from of his family was not a messenger of the true God, the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob!

So, regardless of what Muhammad had supposedly written, his words go totally against the words and the law of all the Prophets before him, including Jesus. Jesus words cannot be undone all though many have tried in times past way before Muhammad.

Posted By: Kish
Date Posted: 25 September 2012 at 10:50am

nothing wrote:

kindly explain the short version of what was the The kingdom of God before taken away. Remember most muslims are not familiar with this terminology.

The expression and exercise of God�s universal sovereignty toward his creatures, or the means or instrumentality used by him for this purpose. ( http://wol.jw.org/en/wol/bc/r1/lp-e/1200002615/0/0 - Translation by Yusuf Ali: Nay Allah raised him up unto Himself; and Allah is Exalted in Power Wise. 4: 158

Jesus was raised to heaven for this purpose which the Quran Acknowledges.

The government of God is, in structure and function, a pure theocracy (from Gr. the�os′, god, and kra′tos, a rule), a rule by God.

Posted By: honeto
Date Posted: 25 September 2012 at 3:36pm

[/QUOTE]

Kish,
you have problem paying attention. The individual that submits to the will of God is the one who is the true believer. Not a group of people on base of their race, color, nor gender, nor material status will be saved. Each and every individual has to prove their submission to the Will of God through sincere and truthful intention and action.
And those who sincerely are in submission to the will of God are at peace with themselves.
Hasan

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The friends of God will certainly have nothing to fear, nor will they be grieved. Al Quran 10:62

Posted By: truthnowcome
Date Posted: 25 September 2012 at 11:19pm

Kish wrote:

friendship wrote:

If Ishmael did not submit to G-d while in Palestine, he submitted to Him while in that Southern Desert - Makka.

Convince us who are not Muslim through references and proof that he submitted to Allah because he did not submit to God in Palestine.

friendship wrote:

The one who follows Muhammad openly is the one who submitted to G-d.

�I (Jesus) set the pattern for you.� ( http://wol.jw.org/en/wol/bc/r1/lp-e/2002603/3/0 - ) Not Muhammad!

�Continue following me.� ( http://wol.jw.org/en/wol/bc/r1/lp-e/1102007061/29/0 - - John 21:19 ) Not Muhammad!

�All authority http://wol.jw.org/en/wol/fn/r1/lp-e/1001060043/291 - - has been given me in heaven and on the earth. (Matt 28:18) Not Muhammad!

And you say follow Muhammad after what Jesus and God had already said, really? You stand on slippery ground by making that statement.

Say: "People of the Book, you do not stand on anything, until you perform the Torah and the Gospel [Injil], and what was sent down to you from your Lord." ... S. 5:68 Arberry

Say (O Muhammad SAW)] "Shall I seek a judge other than Allah while it is He Who has sent down unto you the Book (The Qur'an), explained in detail." Those unto whom We gave the Scripture [the Taurat (Torah) and the Injeel (Gospel)] know that it is revealed from your Lord in truth. So be not you of those who doubt. S. 6:114 Al-Hilali & Khan

Even your Quran openly acknowledges the important of obeying the Injil (Gospel) and Muslims are telling people not to, wow!

friendship wrote:

Do not be deceived by the followers of Muhammad of this century.

I agree because Muhammad earlier followers believed the Injil It was only until Ibn-Khazem in 1064 made the accusation against the corruption of the Scriptures without any historical facts to prove it.

JESUS SAID: �I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now. Howbeit when he, the Spirit of Truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but what he hears.� ( http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John%20%2016:12-13&version=9 - - John.16:12-13 )

<>

The question is who is this Comforter Jesus (S) spoke of in the bible? Is the Comforter a �Spirit� or a �persons�? We the Muslims believe that the Comforter is Muhammad (S). On the other hand Christians does not. They misunderstood the Comforter for the Holy Ghost/Spirit; whereas Jesus (S) spoke of two personalities: The Comforter and the Holy Ghost/Spirit. In this chapter with a closer examination I have established both of them, that is, one in Heaven with the Father and one was with the disciples on earth.

Let us look at http://www.studylight.org/isb/bible.cgi?query=joh+14%3A26&section=0&it=kjv&oq=joh%252014%3A26&ot=bhs&nt=na&new=1&nb=joh&ng=14&ncc=14 - - - John 14:26 it is mentioned:

�Butt the Comforter which is the Holy Ghost...� ( http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=joh+14:26&translation=str&st=1&new=1&sr=1 - - )

Here we understood that the comforter is the Holy Spirit. However, in http://www.studylight.org/isb/bible.cgi?query=1jo+2%3A1&section=0&it=kjv&oq=1jo%25202%3A1&ot=bhs&nt=na&new=1&nb=1jo&ng=2&ncc=2 - - - 1john.2:1 Jesus was also called comforter it, read:

�...we have an �advocate� with the father, Jesus Christ the righteous.� ( http://www.studylight.org/isb/bible.cgi?query=1jo+2%3A1&section=0&it=kjv&oq=1jo%25202%3A1&ot=bhs&nt=na&new=1&nb=1jo&ng=2&ncc=2 - - )

The Greek word used there for both is �paracletos� which translated as �comforter, advocate, etc.� so we have now, Jesus (s) as a comforter and the holy spirit as the comforter, both were call comforter so we arrive with two now called comforter, man and spirit. http://www.studylight.org/isb/bible.cgi?query=joh+14%3A26&section=0&it=kjv&oq=joh%252014%3A26&ot=bhs&nt=na&new=1&nb=joh&ng=14&ncc=14 - - -

Posted By: Friendship
Date Posted: 26 September 2012 at 2:32am

Assalamu alaikum.

The comforter in reality taking into consideration what happened between the raising of Jesus son of Maryam to heavens cannot be other than that one who Allah send to correct humanity and direct it to the Straight Path. HISTORICALLY, THERE WAS NONE OTHER THAN MUHAMMAD THAT HUMAN BEING WHO LIVED FROM 610-632 AD. The word 'Mahdi' meaning 'The guide' used unintelligibly by those apologists and confusionists followers of Muhammad is close to the concept of a 'Comforter'. The follower of Muhammad anticipating the arrival of a 'Mahdi' to teach and demonstrate to him the Pillars of Islam is certainly a disbeliever.

As for the Christians ( I do not know the belief of the Jews but I will ask a Rabbi) the example of Reverend Moon of Suth Korea failure to unite the Christians is an argumnet against them that Jesus cannot be the 'Messiah'. The litmus test is now hanging on the establishment of the 'Caliph'- a task that is rejected by the followers of Muhammad Rasulullah.

Establishment of the caliph is the only proof and evidence that Muhammad was sent as a mercy to mankind and that his call is indeed the perfected, chosen and completed way of life enveloping the Message contained in the Torah. Why is it that the Muslims are averse to the establishment of the caliph? It is nothing other than ignorance, fear and greed. Why is it that the West are sitting outside this battle field, while the disbelievers in the time of Muhammad Rasulullah helped him in establishing his authority in the Arabian Peninsula. Did they not benefit?

Indeed al-Arrat complained to Muhammad Rasulullah of insecurity experienced by their caravans. Muhamamd replied, "I swear by Allah in whose hand is my life. If you are patient soon will come th time when a merchant will travel from Sana'a to Syria fearing nothing other than the cry of a wolf." Did this happen or not?

The time has come. Maududi in his 1944 lecture at Aleigra university said, "It is futile and useful st**id forone to resist a revolution that has already set its foot...(or words of this meaning). In fact Allah has signalled this in the holy Qur'an 57:16, "Has not the time come for the hearts of those who believe (in Oneness of Allah - the Jews) to be affected by Allah's Remionder (the comfort and hardships suffered by the Jews), and that which was revealed of the truth, lest they become as those who received the Scripture and the Injeel before, and the term was prolonged for them and so their hearts were hardened? ..." Further demanding the establishment of the truth (Caliphate) Allah continues; "Know that Allah gives life to the earth after its death! Indeed We have made clear the Ayat (proofs evidences, lessons of the total failure of democray, communism capatalism and all isms and ists to bring peace and socio-economic stability in the world) to you, if you but understand."

Friendship.

Posted By: Kish
Date Posted: 26 September 2012 at 7:43am

Friendship wrote:

Thus Allah described those whom He took covenant with but broke that covenant as Christians.

First and foremost, Allah is nowhere associated with the children of Israel, not even Ishmael or Hagar. The first to associate Allah with the children of Israel was only Muhammad, not the prophets of the Holy Scriptures.

The Quran is the first book for Muslims so it would credit everything in favor of Islam and discredit everything not in favor of Islam. However, you will not see anything in the Gospel (Injil) that says the covenant for Christians was broken but that the God of Abraham, Jehovah favored them.

That is why no other group since the death of Jesus Christ and his 12 disciples were able to perform GREATER miracles in front of many eye-witnesses to show and prove they had the backing of God, much like Moses and the prophets after him. Not ONE miracle performed since then by ANY other group of people on earth has any man seen since the first Christians, starting with Christ Jesus have performed Greater Miracles. That�s proof of God�s Holy Spirit!

All these other leaders and groups since then who profess to have supposedly performed miracles don�t even come close OR do not even have any eye-witnesses as proof to confirm it really happened! All they have is that person saying trust me because I spoke to the angel Gabriel and I was told to recite, no eye-witnesses no evidence or proof no nothing.

Friendship wrote:

So what is the use of telling you what Allah says?

To help me understand and see if it is consistent to what he has been saying all along, God does not lie. If it is not consistent with the Holy Scriptures that presents a serious problem and the Scriptures takes precedent, why?

http://wol.jw.org/en/wol/b/r1/lp-e/48/1#s=3:287-3:449 - - http://wol.jw.org/en/wol/s/r1/lp-e?q=Galatians+1%3A8 - http://wol.jw.org/en/wol/dx/r1/lp-e/29181 - ^- However, even if we or an angel out of heaven were to declare to YOU as good news something beyond what we declared to YOU as good news, let him be accursed

http://wol.jw.org/en/wol/b/r1/lp-e/46/1#s=5:0-5:138 - For the message of the cross (stake) is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.

Posted By: Abu Loren
Date Posted: 27 September 2012 at 8:41am

Kish wrote:

This is really embarrassing!

Posted By: Friendship
Date Posted: 27 September 2012 at 9:26am

Assalamu alaika Kish.

Arabic language and its application or usage in the Message brought by Muhammad is a language full of meaning in definition explanation description. It is however limited to the understanding and description by the Arabs.

Islam in the Arabic means 'submission, resignation, reconciliation (to the will of Allah). Al-Islam means the submission of submission, the era of submission, those who submitted are called Muslims.

Islam does not carry the meaning you ascribed to it and what the followers of Muhammad accept due to their lack of seriousness and faith.

Kish, I respect the children of Israel for they also fight against adultering the Islam Allah sent to them. The Torah Resources International said:

The Hebrew word, torah (תורה), is derived from a root that was used in the realm of archery, yareh (ירה). Yareh means to shoot an arrow in order to hit a mark. The mark or target, of course, was the object at which the archer was aiming. Consequently, torah, one of the nouns derived from this root, is, therefore, the arrow aimed at the mark, The target is the truth about God and how one relates to Him. The torah is, therefore, in the strict sense instruction designed to teach us the truth about God. Torah means direction, teaching, instruction, or doctrine. We should note that the usual translation of this word as law is not quite accurate. One of the most common ways that torah (תורה) is rendered in the Septuagint (LXX) is by using the word nomosv, nomo?. The Greek word nomos, however, has a variety of uses, among which, to be sure, is law, but it is certainly not limited to law. Following the precedent set by the LXX, the Newer Covenant Scriptures consistently render the Hebrew torah by the term nomos. This is where things begin to become confusing.

It is unfortunate that the Muslims are not taking note of this confusion created by allowing Greek to be the dorminat language of translating the Qur'an. Yusuf estes was insulted and denigrated by that ignorant body of the followers of Muhammad who coiled themselves as ahl-al-sunna when he said that the Real Qur'an is with Allah. I do not bother. Certainly the translated Qur'an in English language is full of errors! I regret Yusuf estes bowing to their pressure! Please do not count me with them.

The followers of Muhammad have 140,000 books in one called the'Glorious holy Qur'an'.

You either agree to use our correct terminology which agrees with the original Message of Moses (Torah) or please for the sake of tolerance, assimilation, integration do not comment on the Islam taught practised and explained by Muhammad Rasulullah. PLEASE DO NOT ASSICIATE ME WITH TERRORISTS AND PRECIPITATORS OF EVIL-DOING.

Kish! If Allah described the Written and Oral Law to fit into the way of life of Ishmael there is no iota of truth in you prodding the children of Israel to reject Muhammad Rasulullah. Who was described as an 'ARCHER' in the Torah? Allah did not use that word to describe the 'Shari'a'of Muhammad because the Arabs were normads and posturalists. Shari'a means way to the watering place. Tell me the most appropriate way to appeal to the Arabs and invite them to understand Muhammad? Is water not the most valuable maaterial to a normad? Was this not what Allah tested Abraham with Abimelech? Why accusing of Allah of telling lies and inconsistencies?

Kish! It is time you submit for this is the only way to avert the events of 1930's - depression! What evidence are you waiting from Allah?

Friendship.

Posted By: Kish
Date Posted: 28 September 2012 at 8:05pm

kish wrote:

First and foremost, Allah is nowhere associated with the children of Israel, not even Ishmael or Hagar. The first to associate Allah with the children of Israel was only Muhammad, not the prophets of the Holy Scriptures

Please show me where Ishmael, Hagar or any of his sons submitted to God.
Please show me where Moses and Abraham faced the east when praying.
Please show me where Muhammad came in the name of YHWH where as Jesus did.

(John 5:46) In fact, if YOU believed Moses YOU would believe me, for that one wrote about me.

Deut. 18:18-20: �A prophet I shall raise up for them from the midst of their brothers, like you [like Moses]; and I shall indeed put my words in his mouth, and he will certainly speak to them all that I shall command him. And it must occur that the man who will not listen to my words that he will speak in my name, I shall myself require an account from him.

(John 5:46) In fact, if YOU believed Moses YOU would believe me, for that one wrote about me.

(Luke 24:44) He now said to them: �These are my words which I spoke to YOU while I was yet with YOU, that all the things written in the law of Moses and in the Prophets and Psalms about me must be fulfilled.�

(John 1:45) Philip found Na�than′a�el and said to him: �We have found the one of whom Moses, in the Law, and the Prophets wrote, Jesus, the son of Joseph, from Naz′a�reth.�

(Acts 26:22) However, because I have obtained the help that is from God I continue to this day bearing witness to both small and great, but saying nothing except things the Prophets as well as Moses stated were going to take place,

Deuteronomy 19;15 . . .At the mouth of two witnesses or at the mouth of three witnesses the matter should stand good.

Where in the Quran is Muhammad's 2 or 3 witnesses to confirm his message? Or did Muhammad put the LAW of Moses to the side for his own benefit?

That is the LAW of the Torah!!!!! Now is time for TRUE SUBMISSION!!!!!

Take heed to what you are reading!!!!!!

Therefore produce fruits that befit repentance. And do not start saying within yourselves, �As a father we have Abraham.� For I say to YOU that God has power to raise up children to Abraham from these stones. 9 Indeed, the ax is already in position at the root of the trees; every tree, therefore, not producing fine fruit is to be cut down and thrown into the fire - Luke 3:8-9

Peace,

Kish

Posted By: truthnowcome
Date Posted: 29 September 2012 at 9:07pm

Kish wrote:

Well then Moses (S) spoke of him then you believe he is a prophet; end of story! TRUE SUBMISSION!!!

FOR ONCE YOU RECOGNIZE THE TRUTH! (...AT THE MOUTH OF TWO WITNESS OR AT THE MOUTH OF THREE WITNESS THE MATTER SHOULD STOOD GOOD!)

TNC

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LET'S SET THE RECORD STRAIGHT ONCE AND FOR ALL...NO MORE LIES!

Posted By: Friendship
Date Posted: 29 September 2012 at 10:00pm

Assalamu alaika Kish;

Kish listen to what Allah warned through Muhammad Rasulullah: Qur'an 5:57: O People of the Book! You have nothing as regards guidance till you act according to the Torah, the Injeel and what has now been sent down from your Lord - the Qur'an.."

Deut 19:15 is another admonition in Qur'an 34:46; 'Say to them O Muhammad "I exhort you (Kish etc) to one thing only: that you stand up for Allah's sake in pairs and singly, and reflect within yourselves on the life history of Muhammad Rasulullah: there is no madness in your companion (Muhammad Rasulullah). He is only a warner to you in the face of a severe torment ( unemployment, recession, depression, Al-Qaeda, Taliban, tornado, katrina, earthquakes etc).

Kish, if the Torah have warned you against the calamities facing you, then you are responsible to yourself if you go AGAINST THOSE ORDINANCES. You are part and parcel of Taliban and al-Qaeda. You do not benefit by turning a blind eye to the truth. If Muhaammad tells you to stand by the Torah and the Injeel, it is your responsibilty to find contradictions, controverises in them and tell Muhammad and not Muhammad to tell you. If he tells you then know that Moses and Jesus must have told him for Allah must have been the One who told him.

Friendship.

Posted By: Kish
Date Posted: 07 October 2012 at 6:30am

Kish wrote:

Please show me where Ishmael, Hagar or any of his sons submitted to God.
Please show me where Moses and Abraham faced the east when praying.
Please show me where Muhammad came in the name of YHWH where as Jesus did.

Like always, Muslims like to say and believe Muhammad was a prophet of God but are never able to answer simple questions, that alone
speaks for itself. Just because you believe it to be so does not make it true.

Muslims like to say and believe Allah is the God of the Holy Scriptures and early prophets. NOT!! NO PROOF IT'S NOT TRUTH!!!

Where is the evidence that Jesus was the Prophet that Moses spoke of?

(John 5:46) In fact, if YOU believed Moses YOU would believe me, for that one wrote about me.

Deut. 18:18-20: �A prophet I shall raise up for them from the midst of their brothers, like you [like Moses]; and I shall indeed put my words in his mouth, and he will certainly speak to them all that I shall command him. And it must occur that the man who will not listen to my words that he will speak in my name, I shall myself require an account from him.

(John 5:46) In fact, if YOU believed Moses YOU would believe me, for that one wrote about me.

(Luke 24:44) He now said to them: �These are my words which I spoke to YOU while I was yet with YOU, that all the things written in the law of Moses and in the Prophets and Psalms about me must be fulfilled.�

(John 1:45) Philip found Na�than′a�el and said to him: �We have found the one of whom Moses, in the Law, and the Prophets wrote, Jesus, the son of Joseph, from Naz′a�reth.�

(Acts 26:22) However, because I have obtained the help that is from God I continue to this day bearing witness to both small and great, but saying nothing except things the Prophets as well as Moses stated were going to take place,

Deuteronomy 19;15 . . .At the mouth of two witnesses or at the mouth of three witnesses (His Disciples) the matter should stand good.

On the other-hand this is your proof?

truthnowcome wrote:

Well then Moses (S) spoke of him then you believe he is a prophet; end of story! TRUE SUBMISSION!!!

Oh, really? Who was the first witness, Moses? Friend, you cannot use Moses, he is the one that said it. You have to prove through other means that Moses was referring to Muhammad just as Jesus and others proved that Moses was referring to Jesus. Where in the Quran did Muhammad say it? Who's the second or third witness?
AGin, just because this is what you were taught and where lead to believe does not mean it to be truth. NO PROOF IT'S NOT TRUTH!!!

In that case why not accept The Bab and or Baha'u'llah's message? The reason you do not accept them is the same reason why Islam is not accepted in the Holy Scriptures.

Any answers to my basic questions? Don't run now, anyone please?

Posted By: Kish
Date Posted: 07 October 2012 at 7:22am

Friendship wrote:

Kish listen to what Allah warned through Muhammad Rasulullah: Qur'an 5:57: O People of the Book! You have nothing as regards guidance till you act according to the Torah, the Injeel and what has now been sent down from your Lord - the Qur'an.."
...Qur'an 34:46; 'Say to them O Muhammad "I exhort you (Kish etc) to one thing only: that you stand up for Allah's sake

All self appointed prophets had said the samething when it came to their writtings and Muhammad is no different, sorry. But, here is another verse in the Quran that is wrong. Jesus did not send down the Gospel. I guess that mysterious and strange angel that forcibly and violently choked Muhammad got more things mixed-up again.
Tell us what 2 or 3 witnesses can confirm that really happened in the cave? Oh! There were no witnesses I forgot, right from the start Muhammad broke the Holy Law of the Torah AND his own word Let me quote you and the Quran - You have nothing as regards guidance till you act according to the Torah . . . WHERE IS THE SUBMISSION? In name only.

NO PROOF IT'S NOT TRUTH!!!

So i'll leave everyone with this vital warning that was written over 700 years before the Quran by a TRUE Prophet who used God's name (YHWH) and spoke of Jesus as the Greater Moses - Ezekiel 13:3, 7 This is what the Sovereign Lord Jehovah (YHWH) has said: �Woe to the st**id prophets, who are walking after their own spirit, when there is nothing that they have seen! Is it not an untrue vision that YOU men (Muhammad) have visioned (Cave of Hira) and a lying divination that YOU have said, when saying, �The utterance of Jehovah is,� when I myself have spoken nothing?��

Galatians 1:8 However, even if we or an angel (Gabriel) out of heaven were to declare to YOU as good news something beyond what we declared to YOU as good news, let him be accursed. - Of course we know it was not (Gabriel) Just because Muhammad said it was doesn't make it to be true, we want eye-witnesses which Muhammad did not have to ever confirm
that his message was truly from an angel or from the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, Jehovah.

Posted By: Abu Loren
Date Posted: 08 October 2012 at 8:03am

Kish wrote:

LOL good one!

Posted By: Friendship
Date Posted: 08 October 2012 at 8:44am

Assalamu alaika Kish.

Let us be fair and look civilized! You want to go back to 1433 and that since no one was there in the cave when Muhammad received his command for Research and development and hence the progress of mankind, all that is in the Qur'an is false.
Kish! I am a scientist and I have never seen a proton nor haem moiety. I have never seen hydrogen combining with oxygen f

orming water.
Please support those Muslim clerics and scholars causing havoc in the world. I am exercising that independence given to all mankind by Allah and I am doing exactly what Moses did when he came back from the Place of Meeting and found his people worshiping the idol. You are following your priests.
Do not take verses in isolation and interpret the Qur'an. You are indirectly aiding Taliban and Al-Qaeda while I am looking for ways and means to neutralize them. You have to listen to me to achieve that. they will never listen to me!
If you are greater that the G-d of Abraham, I will certainly listen to you and discuss with you. But the G-d of Abraham soothed Muhammad Rasulullah in Qur'an 4:166, "But Allah bears witness to that which He has sent down (the Qur'an) and you (Muhammad), He has sent it down with His Knowledge, and the angels bear witness. And Allah is all Sufficient as a Witness." You will settle your score with the G-d of Abraham. Who was there at Mount Sinai before the assembly?
Kish Listen! To be fair and honest I am not interested in this type of discourse. My interest is how can we get rid of injustice and improve our socioeconomic status. Allah says that is possible when mankind join hands to establish the Caliphate. Is that possible by following the Injeel? Then I will support you. But so far the world is failing. There is no Muslim country with a Caliph. Can you support in establishing one? Is experimentation harmful? Without it could mankind have succeeded?

Friendship.

Posted By: Kish
Date Posted: 11 October 2012 at 8:04pm

Friendship wrote:

My interest is how can we get rid of injustice and improve our socioeconomic status ... Is that possible by following the Injeel? Then I will support you.

Isaiah 9:7 foretells: �To the abundance of the princely rule and to peace there will be no end, upon the throne of David and upon his (Jesus) kingdom in order to establish it firmly and to sustain it by means of justice and by means of righteousness, from now on and to time indefinite. The very zeal of Jehovah of armies will do this.�

Isaiah 32:1 Look! A king (Jesus) will reign for righteousness itself . . .
^{http://www.jw.org/en/publications/bible/psalms/37#v-10 -}
Psalms 37: 10, 11 And just a little while longer, and the wicked one will be no more . . . But the meek ones themselves will possess the earth, And they will indeed find their exquisite delight in the abundance of peace.

20 For the wicked themselves will perish, And the enemies of Jehovah will be like the preciousness of pastures; They must come to their end. In smoke they must come to their end.

29 The righteous themselves will possess the earth, And they will reside forever upon it.

Friendship wrote:

There is no Muslim country with a Caliph.

Like the Jews, Muslims are waiting for a savior, caliph or Messiah.

What both don't know is, that is why Jesus had to die as a sacrifice for our sins. Why else would someone special come through the virgin Mary, die and be resurrected to life. Even the Quran recognizes that but falls short in explaining why.

John 14:16 Jesus said to him: �I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

If you want life you must come through Jesus and no one else!!! You have the Gospel (Good News) submit to it.

Posted By: Friendship
Date Posted: 12 October 2012 at 12:36am

Assalamu alaika Kish.

For the sake of the honor Allah the G-d of Abraham gave to mankind by raising them above all other creatures let us put our coordinates straight. I said in one of the postings that those who stick to the Qur'an are misguided. Our salvation is in the Sunna of Muhammad - that is his exemplary way of life witnessed by each molecule in the world.
Now you are quoting Isaiah a Prophet during the the trouble time of the Jewish history under the Assyrians. We talking of the New testament and not the Old Testament. Now, if you are saying that the OT and the NT are the same, then certainly Jesus son of Maryam cannot be the son of the G-d of Abraham. Why not have a good night with Isaiah 32? Where is that stream in the desert and a rock that gives shade? My dear brother! The whole of Isaiah 32 is talking of the Arabs. I have nothing to gain by you accepting the Sunna of Muhammad except certainly for making peace to prevail in the world!
Isaiah 9:7 must be tied to 9:6. In my bible it is: A child (not the son of G-d of Abraham0 has been born (past tense0 for us. We have been give a son who will be our ruler. His name will be the Wonderful Advisor and Mighty God, Eternal father and Prince of peace......" Kish, the Vatican is a state by itself independent of Italian administration. But what can you say about all these things coming out from the Vatican? Please do not mention what is happening in the Arab countries. You have the Sunna of Muhammad to play on and be directed.
Every Prophet is a righteous man and no one will ever get to G-d of Abraham except by following his teaching. If you follow the teaching of any Prophet you are righteous in the same capacity of that prophet. This is the teaching of at least Muhammad.

Friendship

Posted By: Kish
Date Posted: 19 October 2012 at 8:25pm

Friendship wrote:

Every Prophet is a righteous man and no one will ever get to G-d of Abraham except by following his teaching. If you follow the teaching of any Prophet you are righteous in the same capacity of that prophet. This is the teaching of at least Muhammad.

Fine, if that is what YOU been lead to believe. But Muhammad was seeking his own glory like all the other so called prophets past and present.

Ezekiel 13:3, 7 This is what the Sovereign Lord Jehovah (YHWH) has said: �Woe to the st**id prophets, who are walking after their own spirit, when there is nothing that they have seen! Is it not an untrue vision that YOU men (Muhammad) have visioned (Cave of Hira) and a lying divination that YOU have said, when saying, �The utterance of Jehovah is,� when I myself have spoken nothing?��

Galatians 1:8 However, even if we or an angel (Gabriel) out of heaven were to declare to YOU as good news something beyond what we declared to YOU as good news, let him be accursed. - Of course we know it was not (Gabriel) Just because Muhammad said it was doesn't make it to be true, we want eye-witnesses which Muhammad did not have to ever confirm that his message was truly from an angel or from the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, Jehovah.

Posted By: Abu Loren
Date Posted: 20 October 2012 at 2:59am

Kish wrote:

Friendship wrote:

Every Prophet is a righteous man and no one will ever get to G-d of
Abraham except by following his teaching. If you follow the teaching of
any Prophet you are righteous in the same capacity of that prophet. This
is the teaching of at least Muhammad.

Fine, if that is what YOU been lead to believe. But Muhammad was seeking his own glory like all the other so called prophets past and present.Ezekiel 13:3, 7 This is what the Sovereign Lord Jehovah
(YHWH) has said: �Woe to the st**id prophets, who are walking after
their own spirit, when there is nothing that they have seen! Is it not
an untrue vision that YOU men (Muhammad) have visioned (Cave of Hira)
and a lying divination that YOU have said, when saying, �The utterance
of Jehovah is,� when I myself have spoken nothing?��Galatians
1:8 However, even if we or an angel (Gabriel) out of heaven were to
declare to YOU as good news something beyond what we declared to YOU
as good news, let him be accursed. - Of course we know it was not
(Gabriel) Just because Muhammad said it was doesn't make it to be true,
we want eye-witnesses which Muhammad did not have to ever confirm that his message was truly from an angel or from the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, Jehovah.

I think this Kish person should be banned for defaming the Prophet (pbuh) and he has been doing this for a while. Here is the full text of what he forged above. Prophet Exekiel is talking to the Prophets of Israel. This Kish character inderted in brackets Muhammed and the cave of Hira.

13:1 And the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,
13:2 Son of man, prophesy against the prophets of Israel that prophesy, and say thou unto them that prophesy out of their own hearts, Hear ye the word of the LORD;
13:3 Thus saith the Lord GOD; Woe unto the foolish prophets, that follow their own spirit, and have seen nothing!
13:4 O Israel, thy prophets are like the foxes in the deserts.
13:5 Ye have not gone up into the gaps, neither made up the hedge for the house of Israel to stand in the battle in the day of the LORD.
13:6 They have seen vanity and lying divination, saying, The LORD saith: and the LORD hath not sent them: and they have made others to hope that they would confirm the word.
13:7 Have ye not seen a vain vision, and have ye not spoken a lying divination, whereas ye say, The LORD saith it; albeit I have not spoken?

Posted By: Friendship
Date Posted: 20 October 2012 at 3:53am

Assalamu alaika Kish.

You said: Fine, if that is what YOU been lead to believe. But Muhammad was seeking his own glory like all the other so called prophets past and present.Ezekiel 13:3, 7 This is what the Sovereign Lord Jehovah.

Response: Please be fair to logic, truth and written history. If you do not believe in regurgitating what you read in the Qur'an, please do not expose your ignorance to your brothers of the same faith.
Muhammad said Qur'an 46:9, "I am not a new thing among the Messengers nor do I know what will be done with me or with you. (compare your saying that Jesus son of Maryam has atone your sins). I only follow that which is revealed to me, and I am but a plain warner."
He said, "Do not put me above my brothers. I am but one of them."
Kish! Understand how you are indirectly supporting terrorism and yet USA and their allies do not arrest you.

Friendship.

Posted By: Kish
Date Posted: 22 October 2012 at 6:07pm

Abu Loren wrote:

I think this Kish person should be banned for defaming the Prophet (pbuh) and he has been doing this for a while. Here is the full text of what he forged above. Prophet Exekiel is talking to the Prophets of Israel. This Kish character inderted in brackets Muhammed and the cave of Hira.

Prophet Ezekiel was referring to any prophet who fit exactly what he was saying.
The Prophet Muhammad said he had a vision, right? It was a vision that the God of Israel had not spoken.

If the shoe (sandal) fits wear it! ! !

If you believe other-wise please provide the forum proof of two or three eye- witnesses to this event so this could be considered a FACT and not FICTION as it is now according to the law and the Torah.

Posted By: Abu Loren
Date Posted: 23 October 2012 at 2:31am

Kish wrote:

Rubbish!

Posted By: Kish
Date Posted: 25 October 2012 at 3:04pm

Abu, just because you hate the facts, doesn't mean it is not true. That is why you need to provide a better, credible more provable answer then just 'rubbish' my friend.

If you cannot do that then I feel for you. Continue in your blind faith without facts to prove it.

Posted By: honeto
Date Posted: 29 October 2012 at 2:11pm

Kish wrote:

Abu, just because you hate the facts, doesn't mean it is not true. That is why you need to provide a better, credible more provable answer then just 'rubbish' my friend.

If you cannot do that then I feel for you. Continue in your blind faith without facts to prove it.

Haha, look who is talking, who by fraud quotes people of what they have never said. That's a shame Kish shame on you. I cannot trust you or your intentions anymore after I caught you of that fraud.
Hasan

-------------
The friends of God will certainly have nothing to fear, nor will they be grieved. Al Quran 10:62

Posted By: Kish
Date Posted: 18 November 2012 at 1:57pm

Kish wrote:

The Prophet Muhammad said he had a vision, right? It was a vision that the God of Israel had not spoken.

If the shoe (sandal) fits wear it! ! !

If you believe other-wise please provide the forum proof of two or three eye- witnesses to this event so this could be considered a FACT and not FICTION as it is now according to the law and the Torah.

. . .and still you have no proof! Why am I not surprised!!

Posted By: Kish
Date Posted: 27 November 2012 at 11:52am

God has turned his attention to a New Nation

Jeremiah 31:31-33 says �Look! There are days coming,� is the utterance of Jehovah, �and I will conclude http://wol.jw.org/en/wol/fn/r1/lp-e/1001060027/340 - - + and with the house of Judah http://wol.jw.org/en/wol/bc/r1/lp-e/1001060027/1768 - - * http://wol.jw.org/en/wol/bc/r1/lp-e/1001060027/1769 - - 32 - + �which covenant of mine they themselves broke . . http://wol.jw.org/en/wol/dx/r1/lp-e/19840 - ^- �For this is the covenant http://wol.jw.org/en/wol/bc/r1/lp-e/1001060027/1773 - - + that I shall conclude with the house of Israel after those days,� http://wol.jw.org/en/wol/bc/r1/lp-e/1001060027/1774 - - + is the utterance of Jehovah. �I will put my law within them http://wol.jw.org/en/wol/bc/r1/lp-e/1001060027/1775 - - + and in their heart I shall write it. http://wol.jw.org/en/wol/bc/r1/lp-e/1001060027/1776 - - + And I will become their God, and they themselves will become my people.�

Acts 15:4 also says Sym′e�on http://wol.jw.org/en/wol/fn/r1/lp-e/1001060047/161 - Galatians 3:16 tells us this, Now the promises were spoken to Abraham http://wol.jw.org/en/wol/bc/r1/lp-e/1001060051/137 - 1 Peter 2: 9, 10 But YOU are �a chosen race, http://wol.jw.org/en/wol/fn/r1/lp-e/1001060063/26 - - + a people for special possession, http://wol.jw.org/en/wol/bc/r1/lp-e/1001060063/92 - YOU should declare abroad the excellencies� http://wol.jw.org/en/wol/fn/r1/lp-e/1001060063/27 - - + of the one that called YOU out of darkness into his wonderful light. http://wol.jw.org/en/wol/bc/r1/lp-e/1001060063/94 - - 10YOU (Christians) were once not a people, but are now God�s people; http://wol.jw.org/en/wol/bc/r1/lp-e/1001060063/95 - YOU were those who had not been shown mercy, but are now those who have been shown mercy.

Galatians 6:15 For neither is circumcision anything nor is uncircumcision, http://wol.jw.org/en/wol/bc/r1/lp-e/1001060051/316 - - [is something].

Posted By: honeto
Date Posted: 29 November 2012 at 10:07am

Kish,
the problem is how much can we trust you now?
Hasan

-------------
The friends of God will certainly have nothing to fear, nor will they be grieved. Al Quran 10:62

Posted By: Kish
Date Posted: 29 November 2012 at 4:52pm

I have no reason to trust you, but I don't use trivial reasons not to respond, that's to juvenile. But if you want to use that as your way out, peace!

Posted By: honeto
Date Posted: 03 December 2012 at 12:42pm

Kish wrote:

I have no reason to trust you, but I don't use trivial reasons not to respond, that's to juvenile. But if you want to use that as your way out, peace!

I say it's even kiddish, to make up something the other person have never said and then use it against that person. Really kiddish.
As far as answering any question you might have, be brave, post it in appropriate thread as the common sense and rules a the forum suggest, you will see answers.
Hasan

-------------
The friends of God will certainly have nothing to fear, nor will they be grieved. Al Quran 10:62

Posted By: Kish
Date Posted: 11 December 2012 at 9:18am

kish wrote:

If you believe other-wise please provide the forum proof of two or three eye- witnesses to this event so this could be considered a FACT and not FICTION as it is now according to the law and the Torah.

. . .and still you have no proof just childish rants again! Why am I not surprised!!

Posted By: iec786
Date Posted: 15 December 2012 at 1:25pm

THE JEWS TO BE SUBSTITUTED:
"Therefore said I (Jesus) unto you (Jews), The kingdom of God
shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth
the fruits thereof." MATTHEW 21:43

A STIFF NECKED PEOPLE:
"For I know thy rebellion, and thy stiff neck: behold, while I
am yet alive with you this day, ye have been rebellious against
the Lord; and how much more after my death? DEUTERONOMY
31:27

JEWS : A rebellious people
"Ye have been rebellious against the Lord from the day that I
knew you." DEUTERONOMY 9:24

Posted By: honeto
Date Posted: 15 December 2012 at 7:59pm

Kish,
still I wonder, how you could type something and post it as if I said it? and you used it and answer it yourself, why would someone who say is sincere would resort to such kind of fraud?
Hasan

-------------
The friends of God will certainly have nothing to fear, nor will they be grieved. Al Quran 10:62

Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 15 December 2012 at 8:04pm

Hasan,
How many times does a person need to apologize for a mistake?
Do you ever apologize for anything you say?
Salaam,
CH

Posted By: honeto
Date Posted: 17 December 2012 at 3:00pm

Caringheart wrote:

Hasan,How many times does a person need to apologize for a mistake?Do you ever apologize for anything you say?Salaam,CH

CAringheart,
I thought, but I am not sure, are you also Kish?? He never apologized, but you say he did?
Hasan

-------------
The friends of God will certainly have nothing to fear, nor will they be grieved. Al Quran 10:62

Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 17 December 2012 at 8:32pm

Greetings Hasan,

You'd have to go back through the thread and look... you can do this easier than I can, my computer is old and very slow... but I'm pretty sure Kish had explained that this was only a simple mistake.
I know I made a comment about having made a similar mistake once.
You just seem unwilling to accept that people make mistakes and to let it go. Do you not make mistakes? I think I've seen a couple of times when you responded to the wrong person also, just no one made an issue of it. We all make mistakes.

Salaam,
CH

[and no, I am not Kish. Kish takes a hardline approach, and if I remember correctly is a Jehovah's Witness, and while I take no issue with Jehovah's Witnesses, I am not one of them and do not know all of their teaching. I like and agree with alot of their teaching though.
Kish and I are so different that I think I would have to be schizophrenic to make the kind of posts that I make and also make the kind that Kish does. We are quite different, yet in some ways the same... like all people. Smile

]

Posted By: honeto
Date Posted: 18 December 2012 at 3:19pm

Thanks for speaking on Kish's behalf,
Hasan

-------------
The friends of God will certainly have nothing to fear, nor will they be grieved. Al Quran 10:62

Posted By: Kish
Date Posted: 31 December 2012 at 9:45am

Okay, back to the subject at hand.

How else do we know that the God of Abraham turned his back on Ishmael/Islam?

1)God agreed with Sarah that Ishmael be kicked out of Abraham�s household for good.

Gen. 21:10, 12 So she began to say to Abraham: �Drive out this slave girl and her son, for the son of this slave girl is not going to be an HEIR with my son, with Isaac!

12 Then God said to Abraham: �Listen to her voice, because it is by means of Isaac that what will be called your seed will be

2)Ishmael was not buried in the cave of Machpelah, the place of burial for Abraham and Isaac, along with their wives.

Gen. 49:31 There they buried Abraham and Sarah his wife. There they buried Isaac and Re�bek′ah his wife, and there I buried Le′ah.

3)Ishmaelites hated the God of Israel!

Ps. 83:2, 6 For, look! your very enemies (Ish′ma�el�ites ) are in an uproar; And the very ones intensely hating you have raised [their] head. . . the Ish′ma�el�ites!!!

They were even hard to get along with �His hand will be against everyone, and the hand of everyone will be against him� (Gen.16:12) So, as we can see ever so clear from the Holy Scriptures, whether Muhammad, who claimed to be an Ishmaelite descendant of Abraham is true or not, it really does not matter.

After the covenant with Abraham, the God of Israel never would use Ishmaelite�s as messengers or prophets, why?

A)They were not Hebrew first and foremost.
B)They never spoke in the name of God, Yahweh/Jehovah. (Deuteronomy 18: 20)
C)They served moon gods (Judges 8)
D)They were born not from Sarah and Abraham but from his slave girl, Hagar

Hagar, represented literal Israel with Jerusalem as its capital

Galatian 4:25 Now this Ha′gar means Si′nai, a mountain in Arabia, and she corresponds with the Jerusalem today, for she is in slavery with her children.

Topic: Did God turn his back on Israel and Islam?

Yes, he most certainly did.

Posted By: Kish
Date Posted: 04 January 2013 at 2:08pm

According to the Toarh, a father could transfer the birthright if he had a good reason, giving the firstborn�s inheritance to a younger son. In the instances of this noted in the Bible, it was not through whim or favoritism, but there was a basis on which the father determined to make the change in the birthright inheritance. Ishmael, as Abraham�s oldest son, was prospective heir for about 14 years. (Ge 16:16; 17:18-21; 21:5) But at Sarah�s request and with Jehovah God�s approval, Abraham dismissed Ishmael, then about 19 years of age.

SO, a father could transfer the birthright if he had a good reason, giving the firstborn�s inheritance to a younger son.

Posted By: honeto
Date Posted: 05 January 2013 at 1:02pm

Kish wrote:

Okay, back to the subject at hand.

How else do we know that the God of Abraham turned his back on Ishmael/Islam?

1)God agreed with Sarah that Ishmael be kicked out of Abraham�s household for good.

Gen. 21:10, 12 So she began to say to Abraham: �Drive out this slave girl and her son, for the son of this slave girl is not going to be an HEIR with my son, with Isaac!

12 Then God said to Abraham: �Listen to her voice, because it is by means of Isaac that what will be called your seed will be

2)Ishmael was not buried in the cave of Machpelah, the place of burial for Abraham and Isaac, along with their wives.

Gen. 49:31 There they buried Abraham and Sarah his wife. There they buried Isaac and Re�bek′ah his wife, and there I buried Le′ah.

3)Ishmaelites hated the God of Israel!

Ps. 83:2, 6 For, look! your very enemies (Ish′ma�el�ites ) are in an uproar; And the very ones intensely hating you have raised [their] head. . . the Ish′ma�el�ites!!!

They were even hard to get along with �His hand will be against everyone, and the hand of everyone will be against him� (Gen.16:12) So, as we can see ever so clear from the Holy Scriptures, whether Muhammad, who claimed to be an Ishmaelite descendant of Abraham is true or not, it really does not matter.

After the covenant with Abraham, the God of Israel never would use Ishmaelite�s as messengers or prophets, why?

A)They were not Hebrew first and foremost.
B)They never spoke in the name of God, Yahweh/Jehovah. (Deuteronomy 18: 20)
C)They served moon gods (Judges 8)
D)They were born not from Sarah and Abraham but from his slave girl, Hagar

Hagar, represented literal Israel with Jerusalem as its capital

Galatian 4:25 Now this Ha′gar means Si′nai, a mountain in Arabia, and she corresponds with the Jerusalem today, for she is in slavery with her children.

Topic: Did God turn his back on Israel and Islam?

Yes, he most certainly did.

Kish,
very clever and decietful, in reality
incomplete:
You present half of the truth in your point-1.
No, according to the Bible God did not turn His back in Ishmael/Islam. Only you closed your eyes after Genesis 21:12.
Here is more of what you tried to hide:
Genesis 21:12 "And God said unto Abraham, Let it not be grievous in thy sight because of the lad, and because of thy handmaid. In all that Sarah saith unto thee, hearken unto her voice. For in Isaac shall thy seed be called.

13 And also of the son of the handmaid will I make a nation, because he is thy seed.

14 And Abraham rose up early in the morning, and took bread and a bottle of water, and gave it unto Hagar, putting it on her shoulder, and gave her the child, and sent her away. And she departed, and wandered in the wilderness of Beer-sheba.

15 And the water in the bottle was spent, and she cast the child under one of the shrubs.

16 And she went, and sat her down over against him a good way off, as it were a bowshot. For she said, Let me not look upon the death of the child. And she sat over against him, and lifted up her voice, and wept.

17 And God heard the voice of the lad. And the angel of God called to Hagar out of heaven, and said unto her, What aileth thee, Hagar? Fear not. For God hath heard the voice of the lad where he is.

18 Arise, lift up the lad, and hold him in thy hand. For I will make him a great nation.
19 And God opened her eyes, and she saw a well of water. And she went, and filled the bottle with water, and gave the lad drink.

20 And God was with the lad, and he grew...."

Nice half try Kish but the truth is in the verses above.
"God was with the lad (Ishamel)" did not mean God turned his back on him, as you are trying to make it look like.
Hasan

-------------
The friends of God will certainly have nothing to fear, nor will they be grieved. Al Quran 10:62

Posted By: Friendship
Date Posted: 05 January 2013 at 2:38pm

Assalamu alaika Kish.

Please do not adulterate the Torah. I implore you to use commonsense and reasoning that gift from the G-d of Abraham that raised us above all His creations.
When Abraham was separating Hegar and her son he gave them what they wanted for their journey- an animal skin full of water and breed.
Gen 25 did not in anyway state how the animals of Abraham were shared. if you are interested ask the Rabbis and here the truth from them. The Rabbis said that Keturah was the name of Hajar and that Ishmael lived also in Palestine with Abraham.

Friendship.

Posted By: Kish
Date Posted: 06 January 2013 at 1:52pm

Hasan, like the Jews/Israel, Ishmael eventually turned his back on the God of Abraham which resulted in God turning his back on Ishmael. God kept his promise as he always does, Ishmael had twelve sons and became a nation but like the Nation of Israel they did not keep following the God of Abraham and Isaac.

As shown in the scriptures I posted he was not buried along with his family, an heir of the family, did not serve Abraham�s God, Jehovah. In fact they hated his God, this is very well documented.

Ps. 83:2, 6 For, look! your very enemies (Ish′ma�el�ites ) are in an uproar; And the very ones intensely hating you have raised [their] head. . . the Ish′ma�el�ites!!!

Because of Ishmael�s dismissal and hatred for Isaac, his heart became harden, that is why even today there is still great animosity between Arabs and Israelis, this hatred was handed down to his descendants.

I only say this to show as I mentioned earlier, God would not use any descendants of his because of these reasons and because of the promise he made to Abraham and Sarah NOT Abraham and Hagar.

Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 06 January 2013 at 11:06pm

I am reminded of a line from Lord of the Rings, by C.S.Lewis, regarding gollum...

'I feel that he too has his part that he must play...'

Ishmael too has his part to play, and Muhammad is the one to play out this part, in this drama called life which the Creator has laid out for us. It is all written in the Bible for those with eyes to see.

Posted By: honeto
Date Posted: 07 January 2013 at 3:40pm

Kish,
that goes against what God said in Genesis 21:18 where God himself is quoted to have said:
"18 Arise, lift up the lad, and hold him in thy hand. For I will make him a great nation."

So, the problem is in the contents, either one can be true. God says he will make him a great nation.
I know God does not say two different things at once. So the problem is in the book.
Hasan

-------------
The friends of God will certainly have nothing to fear, nor will they be grieved. Al Quran 10:62

Posted By: Kish
Date Posted: 09 January 2013 at 8:02pm

honeto wrote:

Kish,
that goes against what God said in Genesis 21:18 where God himself is quoted to have said:
"18 Arise, lift up the lad, and hold him in thy hand. For I will make him a great nation."
So, the problem is in the contents, either one can be true. God says he will make him a great nation.
I know God does not say two different things at once. So the problem is in the book.
Hasan

Hasan, according to Genesis 17:20 God said �He will certainly produce twelve chieftains.� Was that not a great nation as God promised despite the fact that Isaac was being mistreated badly by Ishmael?

Just as God promised to preserve and protect his word which he did, God promised Ishmael to be a great nation which he did, how is that two different things?

The problem Hasan, is not God and his inspired contents but Muslims misinterpretation of God�s inspired contents.

So, you�re right God does not say two different things at once.

Posted By: honeto
Date Posted: 16 January 2013 at 3:26pm

Kish,
....and that misinterpretation is ??
and what is this mistreatment of Isaac by Ishmael, from where do you get that?
Hasan

-------------
The friends of God will certainly have nothing to fear, nor will they be grieved. Al Quran 10:62

Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 16 January 2013 at 4:25pm

honeto wrote:

Kish,
....and that misinterpretation is ??
and what is this mistreatment of Isaac by Ishmael, from where do you get that?
Hasan

I can answer in part;

⁹And Sarah saw the son of Hagar the Egyptian, which she had born unto Abraham, mocking.

¹⁰Wherefore she said unto Abraham, Cast out this bondwoman and her son: for the son of this bondwoman shall not be heir with my son, even with Isaac.

¹¹And the thing was very grievous in Abraham's sight because of his son.

¹²And God said unto Abraham, Let it not be grievous in thy sight because of the lad, and because of thy bondwoman; in all that Sarah hath said unto thee, hearken unto her voice; for in Isaac shall thy seed be called.

¹³And also of the son of the bondwoman will I make a nation, because he is thy seed. (the book of Genesis)

Posted By: Friendship
Date Posted: 16 January 2013 at 8:53pm

Assalamu alaikum.

I always call for commonsense and reasoning prevail in this forum. There is no need turning us as unintelligent folks and driven to hair splitting arguments.
Isaac was born when Ishmael was 16 years or so. It shows that Ishmael was also in Palestine then and not in Makka. This was the moment Ishmael was driven away. At sixteen years old his mother left him looking for water. The child was crying etc. Nobody question this. If actually both are normal human beings and behaved as we behave today, I have never seen in our society where mocking between brothers do not take place. If this is odd in today's Western Christian culture, I am sure it is not so in the then Jewish Muslim culture.

Friendship.

Posted By: 786SalamKhan
Date Posted: 18 January 2013 at 1:28pm

Kish wrote:

Did Ishmael submit to God�s will? No. He did not follow the God of Abraham, the God his father served. Can you show me where Ishmael submitted to God that would help me a lot?

Can you show me where he did not? That would help.

Kish wrote:

�I (Jesus) set the pattern for you.� ( http://wol.jw.org/en/wol/bc/r1/lp-e/2002603/3/0 - ) Not Muhammad!

�Continue following me.� ( http://wol.jw.org/en/wol/bc/r1/lp-e/1102007061/29/0 - - John 21:19 ) Not Muhammad!

�All authority http://wol.jw.org/en/wol/fn/r1/lp-e/1001060043/291 - has been given me in heaven and on the earth. (Matt 28:18) Not Muhammad!

(Matt 10:5-6)--- Jesus sent out these 12 after giving them instructions: "Don't take the road leading to other nations, and don't enter any Samaritan town. Instead, go to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

(Matthew 15:24) He (Jesus) replied, "I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel."

In John 16: 12 & 13, Jesus says:

�I have yet many things to say unto you,

but you cannot bear them now.

Howbeit when he, the spirit of truth, is come,

He will guide you into all truth; �

http://www.islamreligion.com/articles/201/
http://www.islamreligion.com/articles/198/ Allah knows best.

Kish wrote:

Say: "People of the Book, you do not stand on anything, until you perform the Torah and the Gospel [Injil], and what was sent down to you from your Lord." ... S. 5:68 Arberry

Even your Quran openly acknowledges the important of obeying the Injil (Gospel) and Muslims are telling people not to, wow!

Narrated Ubaidullah: "Ibn 'Abbas said, 'Why do you ask the people of the scripture about anything while your Book (Quran) which has been revealed to Allah's Apostle is newer and the latest? You read it pure, undistorted and unchanged, and Allah has told you that the people of the scripture (Jews and Christians) changed their scripture and distorted it, and wrote the scripture with their own hands and said, 'It is from Allah,' to sell it for a little gain. Does not the knowledge which has come to you prevent you from asking them about anything? No, by Allah, we have never seen any man from them asking you regarding what has been revealed to you!' (Translation of Sahih Bukhari, Holding Fast to the Qur'an and Sunnah, Volume 9, Book 92, Number 461)"

The Quran only says to believe in the (original) previous scriptures that were sent to the Prophets of old.

Kish wrote:

I agree because Muhammad earlier followers believed the Injil It was only until Ibn-Khazem in 1064 made the accusation against the corruption of the Scriptures without any historical facts to prove it.

http://thedebateinitiative.com/2011/03/29/where-are-the-original-torah-and-gospel/

Kish wrote:

Ps. 83:2, 6 For, look! your very enemies (Ish′ma�el�ites ) are in an uproar; And the very ones intensely hating you have raised [their] head. . . the Ish′ma�el�ites!!!

"'How can you say, "We are wise, for we have the law of the LORD," when actually the lying pen of the scribes has handled it falsely?(Jeremiah 8:8)
Also it says Ishmaelites but not Ishmael himself, Israel didn't even exist during Ishmael's life.

Kish wrote:

First and foremost, Allah is nowhere associated with the children of Israel, not even Ishmael or Hagar. The first to associate Allah with the children of Israel was only Muhammad, not the prophets of the Holy Scriptures.

Allah literally mean "God" in arabic, the Arab Jews and Christians before Muhammad already used this. And who or what exactly is "Yahweh" and/or "Jehovah"? That's just a Christian transliteration of how the Tetragrammaton would supposedly sound or be read even though it is forbidden. The Jews who speak Hebrew call G-d "Elohim", "Eloah" or "El Shaddai" and Jesus who spoke aramaic would have called him "Alaha" both similar to "Allah".
And Allah knows best.

Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 18 January 2013 at 4:54pm

Friendship wrote:

Assalamu alaikum.
I always call for commonsense and reasoning prevail in this forum. There is no need turning us as unintelligent folks and driven to hair splitting arguments.

Hear, hear. I agree.

Friendship wrote:

Isaac was born when Ishmael was 16 years or so. It shows that Ishmael was also in Palestine then and not in Makka. This was the moment Ishmael was driven away. At sixteen years old his mother left him looking for water. The child was crying etc. Nobody question this. If actually both are normal human beings and behaved as we behave today, I have never seen in our society where mocking between brothers do not take place. If this is odd in today's Western Christian culture, I am sure it is not so in the then Jewish Muslim culture.

Friendship.

Greetings Friendship,

Your post calls to mind two things....
Doesn't it seem odd to say that a 16 year old was a child and crying as his mother looked for water?
Just seems odd to me.

You are right teasing between brothers is nothing unusual, but apparently Sara found it intolerable... as a mother protective of her son?
I am thinking due to the tension and resentment that had been there between herself and Hagar already, before Isaac was conceived, and now perhaps the fact that the son born first was perhaps choosing to 'lord' that fact over Isaac? Making himself to be more important?

Just look at what Joseph's brothers did to him when he acted self important.

Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 18 January 2013 at 9:02pm

786SalamKhan wrote:

In John 16: 12 & 13, Jesus says:

�I have yet many things to say unto you,

but you cannot bear them now.

Howbeit when he, the spirit of truth, is come,

He will guide you into all truth; �

Was Muhammad a spirit?

[QUOTE=786SalamKhan]

Narrated Ubaidullah: "Ibn 'Abbas said, 'Why do you ask the people of the scripture about anything while your Book (Quran) which has been revealed to Allah's Apostle is newer and the latest? You read it pure, undistorted and unchanged, and Allah has told you that the people of the scripture (Jews and Christians) changed their scripture and distorted it, and wrote the scripture with their own hands and said, 'It is from Allah,' to sell it for a little gain. Does not the knowledge which has come to you prevent you from asking them about anything? No, by Allah, we have never seen any man from them asking you regarding what has been revealed to you!' (Translation of Sahih Bukhari, Holding Fast to the Qur'an and Sunnah, Volume 9, Book 92, Number 461)"

The Quran only says to believe in the (original) previous scriptures that were sent to the Prophets of old.

[/quote]

This is hadith, not qur'an. A human interpretation.

Does the qu'ran really say this? I would have to ask who has added words? Is this in order to add a certain meaning that perhaps was not there?

Salaam.

Posted By: Kish
Date Posted: 18 January 2013 at 9:22pm

friendship wrote:

I have never seen in our society where mocking between brothers do not take place.

Friendship, why would a 16 yr. old mock a young, young boy being weaned unless it was out of jealousy, would that not present a future problem? In fact that same problem has been handed down even today between the Israelis and Palestinians.

But without letting personal feelings cloud your judgment, the scriptures said that (Yahweh) God saw to it that Abraham acted to remove the source of the problem from his household, regardless of how we feel on the matter.

Like you, I too always call for commonsense and reasoning to prevail in this forum.

Posted By: Kish
Date Posted: 18 January 2013 at 10:03pm

Originally posted by </span><a name=172971>786SalamKhan

786SalamKhan wrote:

The Quran only says to believe in the (original) previous scriptures that were sent to the Prophets of old.

Was Muhammad aware of an uncorrupted version of the Holy Scriptures when he was told to recite? If so, where and why didn�t this so call �angel Gabriel� tell Muhammad to correct it? If so, why did Allah fail to preserve it as he promised he would? Why didn�t Jesus 12 Apostles say they were corrupted, only modern Muslims? Also, there are over a dozen passages in the Quran that says to believe, read and follow the Gospel, how could you if it was corrupted?

Either way this brings on a serious, serious problem for Muslims not for Christians. Besides, Muslims do not even have the original copies of the Quran let alone the original Quran. If anything, just word of mouth and you know how unreliable that is where as the Holy Scriptures have eye-witness testimonies of the event.

Posted By: 786SalamKhan
Date Posted: 19 January 2013 at 12:06am

Caringheart wrote:

Friendship wrote:

Assalamu alaikum.
I always call for commonsense and reasoning prevail in this forum. There is no need turning us as unintelligent folks and driven to hair splitting arguments.

Hear, hear. I agree.

Yes it is quite strange.

Genesis 21:14

King James Version (KJV)

And Abraham rose up early in the morning, and took bread, and a bottle of water, and gave it unto Hagar, putting it on her shoulder, and the child, and sent her away: and she departed, and wandered in the wilderness of Beersheba.

Genesis 21:18

King James Version (KJV)

Arise, lift up the lad(?), and hold him in thine hand; for I will make him a great nation.

Genesis describes Ishmael as a child in the desert.

Posted By: Friendship
Date Posted: 19 January 2013 at 9:48pm

Assalamu alaika Kish.

As for the Israelites we know the meaning of the word and its history. As for the Palestinians I can say that it refers to that land probably called generally Canaan or the land east of the river Jordan. According to the methodology of arguing in the teaching of Muhammad, there cannot be problem between them because they are different entities. Kish, if only each and every one follows the course of his Messenger, there will be peace in the world.
secondly, I asked the origin of the Palestinians in one of these threads, but I am yet to get an answer.
Thirdly, there are many Palestinians with Jewish blood and Jews with Palestinian blood. Let us be wise and friendly! If you have read the Talmud, Torah and the explanations passed to us by the Rabbis, Isaac and Ishmael lived in Palestinian as mutual loving and hearty brothers.

Friendship.

Posted By: Friendship
Date Posted: 19 January 2013 at 10:17pm

Assalamu alaika Kish.

You said: Was Muhammad aware of an uncorrupted version of the Holy Scriptures when he was told to recite?

Answer: At that instant he did not know.

You said: If so, where and why didn�t this so call �angel Gabriel� tell Muhammad to correct it?

Answer: Muhammad did not know about the allegations of those who called themselves Christians until 9 years after his migration to Madina when he was visited by that folk from Najran. It was during their exchange of Scriptural texts that they rose the question of trinity. There and then chapter 3 was revealed. When he told them the true nature of Jesus son of Maryam, they did not disagree. They went back and after reflecting on the truth they rejected what was said but trinity

You said: If so, why did Allah fail to preserve it as he promised he would?

Answer: The greatest preservation is the failure of humanity to correct itself by using its own code of conduct. If you want to test that preservation, it was done between 623-632 A.C. If that way of life is repeated today, then you will be assured of that preservation.

You said: Why didn�t Jesus 12 Apostles say they were corrupted,

Answer: Were they alive during the time of Muhammad?

You said: only modern Muslims?

Answer: It was the Levi clan of the children of Israel in Madina who conferred the authenticity of the Qur'an (what Allah revealed to Muhammad). So they are the ones to be blamed.

Answer: Also, there are over a dozen passages in the Quran that says to believe, read and follow the Gospel, how could you if it was corrupted?

Answer: They are more than a dozen. The truth is 95% of the Qur'an is from previous Scriptures. Muhammad challenged the Levi clan in Madina to bring a Book from Allah better than the Talmud and the Qur'an in guidance and improving socio-economic conditions for him to follow.

You said: Either way this brings on a serious, serious problem for Muslims not for Christians.

Answer: I believe the opposite is the truth. The followers of Muhammad recognized those who called themselves Christians more than the Jews. Conflict began between the Jews and the Christians and never with the followers of Muhammad.

You said: Besides, Muslims do not even have the original copies of the Qur'an let alone the original Qur'an. If anything, just word of mouth and you know how unreliable that is where as the Holy Scriptures have eye-witness testimonies of the event.

Answer: So, it is you who knows and have the original copy of the Qur'an. Then bring it out and read it. It must contain guidance for mankind. If you follow it, you can will win Taliban and al-Qaeda.

Deuteronomy 6:4 �Listen, O Israel: Jehovah our God is one Jehovah. Yehwah′ �Elo�heh′nu Yehwah′
Holy Qur'an 2:163: And your Ilaah (God) is One Ilaah, La ilaaha Illa Huwa (there is none who has the right to be worshipped but he) the Most Gracious, the most Merciful.

Friendship.

Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 21 January 2013 at 9:44am

Greetings Friendship,

"I asked the origin of the Palestinians in one of these threads, but I am yet to get an answer."

I did a whole lot of reading and research on this a while back. I don't have time to pull out all that research now, but basically the Palestinians are the arabs who moved into the land around Jerusalem after the Jews were driven out and the land was left vacant... and those arabs who emigrated to the land after the return of the Jews, when the Jews rebuilt the land, and jobs became available. I am not speaking of the return of Jews after 1947, but prior.
(I have changed computers so most of my research is on flash drive now and difficult to track down. i used to use two different computers)

"Thirdly, there are many Palestinians with Jewish blood and Jews with Palestinian blood. Let us be wise and friendly!"

Absolutely correct... all brothers.

"If you have read the Talmud, Torah and the explanations passed to us by the Rabbis, Isaac and Ishmael lived in Palestinian as mutual loving and hearty brothers."

Really, this is what the Rabbi's teach? Thanks for sharing. I have long wanted to delve into what is taught in Judaism.

Salaam,
Caringheart

Posted By: Friendship
Date Posted: 22 January 2013 at 5:04am

Assalamu alaika Caringheart.

Let us begin from Canaan to today. I do not want to speculate and cause unsheathing swords.

Friendship.

Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 22 January 2013 at 1:25pm

Friendship wrote:

Assalamu alaika Caringheart.
Let us begin from Canaan to today. I do not want to speculate and cause unsheathing swords.

Friendship.

Hello Friendship,

I am confused by your confusion... "from Canaan to today"?
You mean from the time Moses led his people to the land of Canaan?
That is what I was addressing.

Salaam,
Caringheart

Posted By: Friendship
Date Posted: 22 January 2013 at 8:38pm

Assalamu alaika Caringheart.

Certainly and beyond that. This is according to the teaching of Muhammad that always one must have a detailed exposition of facts and proofs, evidences, signs etc.
You see Caringheart, the G-d of Abraham told Muhammad, "If you are in doubt of what has been revealed to you ask those who have the scripture (book) before you. Indeed the truth has come from your Lord and so do not be in doubt." There is certainly a way to live in harmony from the teaching of Muhammad, but most of you hate it.

Friendship

Posted By: Kish
Date Posted: 23 January 2013 at 1:26pm

Did God turn his back on Islam?

http://dnkjb.net/1189chapters/OT01GEN26.htm - Geneses 26:24, 25 says he did

Posted By: honeto
Date Posted: 24 January 2013 at 12:48pm

Caringheart wrote:

honeto wrote:

Kish,
....and that misinterpretation is ??
and what is this mistreatment of Isaac by Ishmael, from where do you get that?
Hasan

I can answer in part;

9�And Sarah saw the son of Hagar the Egyptian, which she had born unto Abraham, mocking.

10�Wherefore
she said unto Abraham, Cast out this bondwoman and her son: for the son
of this bondwoman shall not be heir with my son, even with Isaac.

11�And the thing was very grievous in Abraham's sight because of his son.

12�And
God said unto Abraham, Let it not be grievous in thy sight because of
the lad, and because of thy bondwoman; in all that Sarah hath said unto
thee, hearken unto her voice; for in Isaac shall thy seed be called.

13�And also of the son of the bondwoman will I make a nation, because he is thy seed.� (the book of Genesis)

CAringheart and others,
read the last line, it does not tell anything like what you say that God turned his back, instead it says what it says, just read it loud. And this is for those of your who take Bible as pure word of God. At least believe that.
Hasan

-------------
The friends of God will certainly have nothing to fear, nor will they be grieved. Al Quran 10:62

Posted By: honeto
Date Posted: 24 January 2013 at 12:56pm

The funny thing about the Bible account is that when Isaac was born Ishmael was already 14 years old. While the Bible portrays Ishmael as a small child while in those days a 15 year old man was an..adult!
"And Abraham arose early in the morning, and he took bread and a leather pouch of water, and he gave [them] to Hagar, he placed [them] on her shoulder, and the child, and he sent her away; and she went and wandered in the desert of Beer sheba."
"And the water was depleted from the leather pouch, and she cast the child under one of the bushes"
"
Rise, pick up the lad and grasp your hand upon him, for I shall make him into a great nation."

Also remember to add a couple of years for Isaac weaning period! "And the child grew and was weaned, and Abraham made a great feast on the day that Isaac was weaned." So that makes Ishmael at least 16 years of age!!!!!!!!!

So how many problems we will have to deal with in the Bible?
Hasan

-------------
The friends of God will certainly have nothing to fear, nor will they be grieved. Al Quran 10:62

Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 24 January 2013 at 2:45pm

honeto wrote:

and what is this mistreatment of Isaac by Ishmael, from where do you get that?
Hasan

Caringheart wrote:

I can answer in part;

honeto wrote:

CAringheart and others,
read the last line, it does not tell anything like what you say that God turned his back, instead it says what it says, just read it loud. And this is for those of your who take Bible as pure word of God. At least believe that.
Hasan

Well for myself I never did say that God turned His back on Ishmael. On the contrary I said, "He has his part to play."

I was only answering your question, i.e.

and what is this mistreatment of Isaac by Ishmael, from where do you get that?
Hasan

Posted By: Kish
Date Posted: 24 January 2013 at 8:02pm

Hasan, you haven't stated any problem yet. You are still grasping for straws, the fact still remains the same as I have stated before and shown. Ishmael was NOT part of the covenant, he never was.

No wonder he is NOT stated, even in the Quran as the child that was to be sacrificed! The Bible rightly stated Isaac.

Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 25 January 2013 at 7:08am

Kish,

I don't think we can rightly say that God turned His back on Ishmael. God did say that Ishmael too would become a mighty nation, or people.
The Hebrew scriptures give us a limited glimpse of God's plan for Ishmael and those mighty people.

⁹Then the angel of the Lord told her, �Go back to your mistress and submit to her.� ¹⁰The angel added, �I will increase your descendants so much that they will be too numerous to count.�

¹¹The angel of the Lord also said to her:

�You are now pregnant
    and you will give birth to a son.
You shall name him Ishmael,
    for the Lord has heard of your misery.
¹²He will be a wild donkey of a man;
    his hand will be against everyone
    and everyone�s hand against him,
and he will live in hostility
    toward all his brothers.�

¹¹The matter distressed Abraham greatly because it concerned his son. ¹²But God said to him, �Do not be so distressed about the boy and your slave woman. Listen to whatever Sarah tells you, because it is through Isaac that your offspring will be reckoned. ¹³I will make the son of the slave into a nation also, because he is your offspring.�

God makes His covenant with Isaac but He doesn't exactly turn His back on Ishmael. In fact God comes to save Ishmael and Hagar when they are in need of water, and He leads them to a land where they can live, doesn't He.

²⁰God was with the boy as he grew up. He lived in the desert and became an archer. ²¹While he was living in the Desert of Paran, his mother got a wife for him from Egypt.

Ishmael factors into God's plan as well. He has his part to play.

I have thought it odd, or interesting, that the Hebrew scriptures were the only record of Ishmael and he seems to have disappeared from the radar after leaving Abraham. Until Muhammad, it seems no one spoke of an Ishmael, after what was written in the Hebrew scriptures.

-------------
Let us seek Truth together
Blessed be God forever
"I believe in Jesus as I believe in the sun... not because I see it, but because by it, I see everything else.: - C.S.Lewis

Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 25 January 2013 at 7:20am

I have just gone back and read the opening of this thread and I would say this;

the people of Israel turned their backs of God... or some of them did... I would certainly say there are those today who either, never lost their way, or found their way back.
and the people of Ishmael obviously forgot God as well, since they established the Kabba and idol worship... but then there were those who chose to follow Muhammad and believe in the one God again.

So does this mean God turned His back on them?

There are people in all faiths that have turned their back on God, but has God turned His back on them, or does God still invite His lost children to come to Him? Does God wish for any of His creation to be lost, or does He offer every hope and every chance of salvation?

-------------
Let us seek Truth together
Blessed be God forever
"I believe in Jesus as I believe in the sun... not because I see it, but because by it, I see everything else.: - C.S.Lewis

Posted By: Kish
Date Posted: 26 January 2013 at 10:01am

caringheart wrote:

So does this mean God turned His back on them?

Them as in who, Israel and Islam or neither one? God has kept his promise that they become a mighty nation. However, his covenant was broken. It was only if they kept his covenant that he would continue to be with them as a nation.

Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 27 January 2013 at 11:44pm

Kish wrote:

caringheart wrote:

So does this mean God turned His back on them?

Hi Kish,

How many times did God say;
"I will never leave you, nor forsake you"

I am saying that it is not God who turns His back on any of His creation...
He is always inviting us to come to Him.

It is people who turn their back on God, and cause their own selves to lose His blessings.

God will never turn His back.
"Knock and the door will open, seek and you will find, ask and you will be given"

God will allow things to befall us though, when we turn our backs on Him. He will not intervene if we are not seeking Him.

But He doesn't turn His back, does He?
Isn't He always waiting there with open arms 'if we will but turn and seek His face'? Heart

Blessings to you,
Caringheart

⁴⁴And yet for all that, when they be in the land of their enemies, I will not cast them away, neither will I abhor them, to destroy them utterly, and to break my covenant with them: for I am the Lord their God.

⁴⁵But I will for their sakes remember the covenant of their ancestors, whom I brought forth out of the land of Egypt in the sight of the heathen, that I might be their God: I am the Lord.

-------------
Let us seek Truth together
Blessed be God forever
"I believe in Jesus as I believe in the sun... not because I see it, but because by it, I see everything else.: - C.S.Lewis

Posted By: honeto
Date Posted: 04 February 2013 at 3:22pm

Kish wrote:

Hasan, you haven't stated any problem yet. You are still grasping for straws, the fact still remains the same as I have stated before and shown. Ishmael was NOT part of the covenant, he never was. No wonder he is NOT stated, even in the Quran as the child that was to be sacrificed! The Bible rightly stated Isaac.

and contradicted. Read the details before. According to the Bible if any is addressed as "your only son" at any time would be before the birth of Isaac. So there you have it, the fact.
Hasan

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The friends of God will certainly have nothing to fear, nor will they be grieved. Al Quran 10:62

Posted By: Friendship
Date Posted: 04 February 2013 at 9:37pm

Assalamu alaika Kish.

The followers of Muhammad Rasulullah commemorate the sacrifice every year in the very place the sacrifice was to be offered. This place is in Mina some 8 kilometers away from Makka. What do you do to commemorate that?

Friendship

Posted By: Kish
Date Posted: 18 March 2013 at 8:22pm

Fact: The Quran does not mention that Ishmael was the child to be sacrificed.

Fact: the Quran points more towards Isaac as the child that was to be offered as a sacrifice.

Fact: Isaac was the 'only son' of Abraham by his wife Sarah who God made the promise to, Hagar was not around.

There would be no reason for a commemoration at all, it would be to an unknown god!

Posted By: Friendship
Date Posted: 19 March 2013 at 9:19am

Assalamu alaika Kish.

I do not know at what point it is rational experiential you comment on the Qur'an as explained by the companions of the holy apostle. I read the Bible and its commentary by Rev. Matthew Henry. When I comment I quote him.
My appeal is for those in the West to understand that not every follower of Muhammad understand the explanations of the Qur'an given by the companions of Muhammad and their students. The West must respect and listen to those who know and can give references. As to your sayings:
Fact: The Quran does not mention that Ishmael was the child to be sacrificed.
Fact: The principal translator and interpreter of the Qur'an is Muhammad. You do not have such books. If you have and denied, then it is unfair to hide your denial. Muhammad mentioned Ishmael.

Fact: the Quran points more towards Isaac as the child that was to be offered as a sacrifice.
The truth. That is your interpretation that cannot be supported by logical threads in the Bible.

Fact: Isaac was the 'only son' of Abraham by his wife Sarah who God made the promise to, Hagar was not around.

The truth: The Bible is clear on the where about of Ishmael when Isaac was born 16 years later.

There would be no reason for a commemoration at all, it would be to an unknown god!

The truth. You have no justification in judging on what you do not believe.

Friendship

Quran points more towards Isaac as the child that was to be offered as a sacrifice.

Fact: Isaac was the 'only son' of Abraham by his wife Sarah who God made the promise to, Hagar was not around.

There would be no reason for a commemoration at all, it would be to an unknown god!