Apostacy and few other issues
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Category: Religion - Islam
Forum Name: Interfaith Dialogue
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Topic: Apostacy and few other issues
Posted By: Nausheen
Subject: Apostacy and few other issues
Date Posted: 05 July 2012 at 7:27am
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Bismillah I began having a conversation with one of the board members on PM. However both of us want it to go public. In this post am copying the conversation we've had so far. On a side note: I cannot address the apostacy issue off hand, as I have not researched it in detail. If anyone knows the correct rulings - with appropriate references, please share. For now, the following is the discussion: Caringheart Wrote: Greetings Nausheen I appreciate your response. I am going to reply in private message because I know what I will say will only be deleted, or I will be given warning. I am actually a very sensitive person. Anyone who knows me would attest to that. I just don't take offense just because others disagree with my beliefs and because they show me things that are uncomfortable. If they show me a truth, like it or not, I have to acknowledge that truth. I have done that on these forums even. But specifically I wanted to answer this This is the problem I have with Islam "Islam refuses to accept any truth but its own and at the threat of death." You said: This is not true. Not just that, this is a challenge. i have not read too many of your challenges, however, this one is an offensive challenge. If you had said : islam refuses any truth but its own - and full stop - I would have had no problem agreeing with you. However, the later part is not true, according to what I know of my religion. This not just a challenge to me, its an offensive challenge. Ask me why? Because, you are telling me that my religion commands to kill anyone who does not pray, who drinks alcohol, who worships idols, who fornicate, who do XYZ ... This is not true!! my religion does not do this. So, either you ask if Islam is like this or not, or you don't say say things which are not true to our belief with authority. Please. - Have this little bit of discretion and perhaps you can find friends amongst us. You are right it is a challenge. It is an inconvenient truth. Now the way you explained, I appreciate. This is what I am wanting to know. I want to know that the greater majority of Muslims do not agree with the order to kill those who are considered by Muslims to be unbelievers. I am not an unbeliever. I believe in One God, I do not bow down to idols, I do not drink, I do not believe in, or participate in, extra-marital relations... all the things you said. The only difference between us is that I am unconvinced of Muhammad as prophet of God. As far as truth. I posted the truth. I posted the news reports out of Iran itself, that supported the truth that a man in Iran has been sentenced to execution because he converted from Islam to Christianity. Yet all Muslims want to say that this is not an order of Islam... to kill. Either they do not know, or they deny, or hide, the truth of Islam. My posts were deleted and that is upsetting to me because I think we all deserve to know the truth, Muslims, Christains, Jews, it does not matter... we all should know the truth... all must know the truth. Now if Islam is like what it says in the Bible... to test all things for truth... if they are able to hold fast to that which is good(from Muhammad) and reject what is not good... then I have no problem with Islam. I love the Muslim's, what I call old-fashioned values... values that used to exist with members of the Christian church at one time... and for many still do. I know of many who dress modestly, do not drink, go to church, pray, lead a clean life... What I have a problem with Islam is, if they are going to judge me an unbeliever just because I do not believe all that they do. If I live as they live and I say my God guides me to live that way, I am no different than you. Muslims do not believe in Jesus and I accept that fact. A Muslim can join the Christian faith and leave it at any time. It is between them and God. Same with any other religion. You do not have to accept my truth and I do not condemn you for it when you are a person I can obviously see lives as God wants us all to live. But are Muslims able to do this? It is what I am seeking to find out. As it is said, the truth of God is in the fruit, and each must be seen as an individual who bears their own fruit, whether it is good or bad. Are Muslims able to do this or must they categorize people into groups. I hope I have written clearly. I am tired but I really appreciate your time. Wishing you blessings, Caringheart I really wish this could go up on the forum because I think all Muslims should know. I also would like clear picture of me to be presented which isn't possible if my posts are deleted and I am looking vilified. Anyway, have a good day and thanks for making me laugh on your other post. :-) My response to Caringheart: Greetings Caringheart.
Thank you. I would like the discussions to go on boards so all can see we can talk congenially. Mind if I give it a try by posting this on the forum?
I think most of the balanced adults are like this. It�s good to hear that you are a rational person. There are capital punishments in Islam. Most non-muslims have problems with that, and I accept that they have a problem. If you look for answers sincerely am sure you�ll find them. However I do not apologize for it. For me, these are laws of God. I have to accept them as they are. For you this is not a Law of God, because Islam is not a true religion. Thus for you these are wrong, I understand and accept this. But, for a muslim the case is different, because of their belief system. You have to understand this. We have received this religion in form of revelation, thus we don�t believe in modifying/changing it according to trends, wishes, wills, etc. On the same token, say for instance, Islam said: �no matter what humankind did, they should never be punished thru a dealth penalty�, in that case muslims would have argued with you tooth and nail for this belief as theirs. Therefore, when you are arguing Islam is wrong, you are arguing a believe system � so, please try to be sensitive in how you frame your arguments, because belief is not like a scientific theory. Its about their God! Their whole existence revolves around it. People get hurt. When they get hurt, they either hurt back (which is terrible thing to do, islamically), or shut down. In either case, the discussion goes no where � your purpose on the forum is defeated. A few scenarios to consider. 1. Capital punishments (Hadd) are executed only in an Islamic state. 2. Capital punishments are not a light matter � the law is strict in punishing, but its equally strict in verifying the allegations. Human life is not cheap in Islam. If one is not proven guilty, he is left alone. Islamically a person commiting adultery should be stoned to death. _ this means 4 people should have seen the very act with their own eyes, they appear in front of the mufti and testify. They should be known as upright, honorable, pious people in order for their testimony to be accepted and the punishment pronounced. In reality for four people to witness an act so private as that isn�t a very high probability. So, it�s the spirit of Hadd (capital punishment) that has a stronger message, than the Hadd itself. If is telling us how disliked and despised by God and His messenger is the sin. It is a strong deterring factor for muslims. Its telling us to not just avoid it, avoid situations that would lead to it. Now, am in no way saying don�t worry about the hadd, since it is unlikely to be pronounced for all its conditions to be fulfilled is not a high probability. I m only saying study the details of why hadd is ordained in certain specific matters. You will know that when Islam is strict in anything its only for the benefit of humans. Im sure after you�ve researched the topic of hadd you will not dislike Islam as much as you would have at the beginning of it. 3. Apostasy is punished by death. Its no secret. If you want to be an apostate, leave dar-ul-haram (Islamic state) go take asylum somewhere else. If one is considering becoming a muslim, know that there is no turning back till he is in an Islamic state � this again entails the person declares himself a non-muslim � IN AN ISLAMIC STATE. If he hides this within himself, there is no way a hadd can be implemented on him. >>Now the way you explained, I appreciate. This is what I am wanting to know. I want to know that the greater majority of Muslims do not agree with the order to kill those who are considered by Muslims to be unbelievers.<< Not at all. Islam does not order us to kill anyone � accept in a battle. Killing non-believers left right center is nowhere stated in the religion. Im not sure what exactly you�re worried about. >> I am not an unbeliever. I believe in One God, I do not bow down to idols, I do not drink, I do not believe in, or participate in, extra-marital relations... all the things you said. The only difference between us is that I am unconvinced of Muhammad as prophet of God.<< You are a �Nasara� according to the Quran. The Quran calls you �People of the Book� � Ahle Kitab in Arabic. You and I are like Jews and You. The Jews believe in God, don�t worship idols, follow a divine law, but do not believe Jesus (peace be upon him) to be a prophet of God. However the Christians do all what the Jews do, believe in the Torah as the word of God, Moses (peace be upon him) as the prophet of God and then proclaim the bible to be a revelation in a continuum after the torah. The muslims believe in Abraham, David, Moses, Jesus (peace be upon them), Torah, Bible, scrolls of Abraham, Suff of David, and above this believe Muhammad (peace be upon him) is the final messenger, with a final message which is called Quran. Just like Jews don�t regard Christianity as authentic, because its hard for them to bypass Moses (peace be upon him) to accept Jesus (peace be upon him), its more-or-less the same for you when it comes to muslims. You have a hard time bypassing Jesus (peace be upon him) to accept Muhammad (peace be upon him). Think what Jews should be doing regarding Christ (peace be upon him), and draw a parallel picture in mind regarding Christians doing the same for Muahmmad.(peace be upon him).
I don�t know what happened. Like I said, apostacy is a crime which shall be punished by death sentence in an Islamic state. There is no hiding or shying about it. >>Yet all Muslims want to say that this is not an order of Islam... to kill. Either they do not know, or they deny, or hide, the truth of Islam. My posts were deleted and that is upsetting to me because I think we all deserve to know the truth, Muslims, Christains, Jews, it does not matter... we all should know the truth... all must know the truth.<< I cannot comment on the particular discussion as I have not seen it.
Do you believe in the message of Muhammad (peace be upon him)? If not, then you are an unbeliever in this respect. I�d rather say you believe in God, but not His final messenger. The Quran does not call you a kafir � you are not a polytheist according to Quran, if that is what you want to hear. >>If I live as they live and I say my God guides me to live that way, I am no different than you. Muslims do not believe in Jesus and I accept that fact<< Good news to you J We believe in Jesus, son of mary (peace be upon them) as a prophet, and we believe in bible being a revelation of God. For us Jesus (peace be upon him) is not a son of God. Our understanding of him is different from yours, however we do not deny him as being sent to mankind and preaching the word of God. . >>A Muslim can join the Christian faith and leave it at any time. It is between them and God. Same with any other religion.<< Okay, now this is a logic where you and I will see things differently. I will try to explain. In your religion apostacy in not punished by death. So, its okay to enter or leave by free will. However in my religion its not the same. Here you are questioning the law of a religion. Please try to understand that God has made it this way, not the followers. The followers are only following. In all of what you accept about Islam, are the things which are also true in Christianity. However when something is different between Islam and Christianity you have a problem. So you do have a yardstick to judge the right and wrong. Its not your invention, it is what you are given from God. Correct? We have a similar yardstick. What is wrong with that? >> You do not have to accept my truth and I do not condemn you for it when you are a person I can obviously see lives as God wants us all to live. But are Muslims able to do this? << I don�t condemn you for not accepting my religion. It is my duty to present it to you, then its upto you to either take it or leave it. Yes, I think muslims are able to do this. Muslims are doing this in majority of the cases. They don�t have to worry about what others are doing. >>It is what I am seeking to find out. As it is said, the truth of God is in the fruit, and each must be seen as an individual who bears their own fruit, whether it is good or bad. Are Muslims able to do this or must they categorize people into groups.<< I don�t understand your question. The Quran has categorized the non-muslims in groups. Is this what you are talking about? Caringheart, since you are a believer of God, I present Islam to you. I invite you to learn my religion and see for yourself if it carries truth in it. �We believe in God, His angels, His books, His messengers, and the judgement day.� http://quran.com/19 - Peace, nausheen Reply from Caringheart:
------------- <font color=purple>Wanu nazzilu minal Qurani ma huwa Shafaa un wa rahmatun lil mo'mineena wa la yaziduzzalimeena illa khasara.[/COLOR] |
). My only desire is understanding and peace between peoples. I do believe culture and what part of the world you are from makes a difference.Replies:
Posted By: peacemaker
Date Posted: 05 July 2012 at 9:29am
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Assalamu Alaikum/Peace, It happens quite often that there is a vast difference
between what Islam says and what many Muslims actually do. This is prevalent in every community. No faith
or community should be held accountable for the actions of some. In conclusion, it is absurd for anyone to suggest that Islam advocates killing people who covert to another religion.� http://www.onislam.net/english/ask-the-scholar/crimes-and-penalties/apostasy/172501 - http://www.onislam.net/english/ask-the-scholar/crimes-and-penalties/apostasy/172501 ------------- Then which of the favours of your Lord will ye deny? Qur'an 55:13 |
Posted By: iec786
Date Posted: 05 July 2012 at 9:57am
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APOSTASY : ". . . neither shall thine eye pity him (the apostate),
neither shalt thou spare him, neither shalt thou conceal him: "But thou shalt SURELY KILL HIM: thine hand shall be first upon him TO PUT HIM TO DEATH . . ." DEUTRONOMY 13:8,9 |
Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 05 July 2012 at 11:57am
But Peacemaker, I posted a news article that detailed that iran is doing exactly that... they have sentenced a man to death for converting from Islam to Christianity... and that post was deleted from these forums. It was a well thought out post too. So does the rest of the Islamic world disclaim the beliefs and practices of Iran? and why is their so much rhetoric from the Islamic world about exterminating the Jews and the Americans, and hatred toward Christians in general? I encounter far more hate from the Islamic community than love. This is what concerns me about the religion. It seems to promote contention among peoples. I do not believe God would promote contention... not by my own beliefs and teachings, of which Muhammad had similar teachings, but only for the people who chose his religion. He did not espouse love for all as far as I have found, at least not consistently. Thanking you for hearing my voice.
------------- Let us seek Truth together Blessed be God forever "I believe in Jesus as I believe in the sun... not because I see it, but because by it, I see everything else.: - C.S.Lewis |
peacemaker wrote:Posted By: abuayisha
Date Posted: 05 July 2012 at 3:08pm
I totally agree with you Peacmaker.
".....truth that a man in
There is a vast difference between a sentence of death
and actually carrying out the death penalty.
Iran overturned the execution sentence, however Iran - Shia Muslims,
aren't representative of the general body of Muslims no more than Jehovah's
Witnesses are representative of Christianity.
It is my view that Caringheart is trolling our forum.
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Posted By: Nausheen
Date Posted: 05 July 2012 at 7:00pm
Caringheart,
I wanted to help you have a discussion on these forums. However if you do not help yourself, I wont be able to succeed in this - no matter how good my intentions are.
It seems you have several intertwined issues against Islam, and want to broach every subject in one thread, one post - which is neither possible to address, nor very inviting for people to delve into.
It is advisable you sort your issues and post them in proper decorum.
For this thread, am still not sure if your concern is that one deleted post of yours (in replacement of which we are actually having a discussion on the subject of apostacy) or the subject of apostacy itself.
And if this is not clear, to many of us you might end up giving the impression you are simply hailing allegations and calling names to us rather than having any genuine purpose and want to know us better.
So please, read carefully this post, and then read Peacemaker's post - I think he has presented a very valid discussion - one that I could not find after having searched the web since yesterday ...
peace!
------------- <font color=purple>Wanu nazzilu minal Qurani ma huwa Shafaa un wa rahmatun lil mo'mineena wa la yaziduzzalimeena illa khasara.[/COLOR] |
Posted By: Chrysalis
Date Posted: 05 July 2012 at 8:38pm
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http://www.suhaibwebb.com/islam-studies/islam-101/misconceptions/freedom-of-religion-and-apostasy-in-islam-by-dr-ahmed-raysuni/ - http://www.suhaibwebb.com/islam-studies/islam-101/misconceptions/freedom-of-religion-and-apostasy-in-islam-by-dr-ahmed-raysuni/
------------- "O Lord, forgive me, my parents and Muslims in the Hereafter. O Lord, show mercy on them as they showed mercy to me when I was young." |
Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 06 July 2012 at 12:35pm
If they say, "let us go and serve other gods" (Deuteronomy 13:6) but according to Muhammad himself, Jews and Christians and Muslims serve the same God... the God of Abraham. So do or do not Muslims serve the God of Abraham? Also, did you read what I shared in my response to Nausheen... this is a teaching that comes from the old testament Muhammad says the old testament(the Torah) has been corrupted If that is what you believe, then how do you know this is not one of the corrupted scriptures? Has man inserted his own ideas, his own interpretations of God's will? or has God preserved His Word? Then there's this; When God sent Jesus He was "doing a new thing" 19 See, I am doing a new thing! Now it springs up; do you not perceive it? I know you can find ways to dispute these things or apply them to Muhammad and his word. I am just sharing what my view is. This is what I believe to be true; I believe Jesus brought a kinder, gentler message. I believe the God of the old testament(the Torah, the Jewish tradition) was a God who attempted to gain the love of His people by showing His displeasure and His anger... by using harsh discipline to try to bring about the good of His people. This did not ever work for long.(Something Muslims would do well to consider... a look and a study of history and what has worked at what does not) Only Love overcomes. I believe God chose then to come to us in a new way, by coming to us in the flesh, in the form of a Son, His created Son... a human man whom the people could relate to as one who faced all the same temptations that the flesh brings... to bring the message of a God who loves us, rather than simply an angry God... a God to be feared. He comes to enlighten us to see that fear of God is really awe of God and what He can do, and that God desires only our obedience for our own good, because He loves us. It is not the fear that simple human minds had heretofore understood. Jesus came to bring a new message, to turn our hearts. Jesus was the pure Love, that is God, in the flesh. Unfortunately, Muhammad brings back the old teaching... the old way. Through error? Through corruption by other men to his word? or through guidance of a wrong spirit? This is how I see it. Salaam may peace come to all through the Creator who made us all. |
Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 06 July 2012 at 1:05pm
Please explain what that means... "trolling"? I take offense at the accusation. I came to the forums because I seek better understanding between people of all religions. I seek to know the truth and want to know Muslims better and not just succumb to fear mongering. I want to know whether there is something to fear or not. I want us all to pursue the same end... peace. I heretofore had thought that all religions respected each other, and could allow one another to live in peace with their own religion... until 9/11. Then I realized that I knew very little about any religion other than my own, and so I began to learn... not just about Islam but about all religion from beginning to end. And through that learning I have found that the same is true the other way around... Muslims also have little understanding about the religion they preach against. The thing is my religion does not preach against any other religion. It only seeks to share its own. (People are free to reject it if they so choose.) This is why I knew nothing and would never pretend to know all that there is to know about another religion. It will take a lifetime to understand my own. I did not bring up the issue at hand. I only responded to what someone else said to me about apostasy not being a crime in Islam. I had facts to know that this was not true. It is treated as a crime, if not in all Islam, then at least in part. This is what I seek clarity on. That is all. As far as the reactions I am getting here... I see no difference in some of my discussions than the other ones that are going on. I see others free to share views and debate. Just as no Muslim will shy away from discussing their truth, so neither will I, or should I have to, shy away from sharing mine. 16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith. 38 Whosoever therefore shall be ashamed of me and of my words in this adulterous and sinful generation; of him also shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he cometh in the glory of his Father with the holy angels. I do not expect you to suppress your truth, but neither can I suppress mine. I am learning from the discussions on this forum and hope that everyone might learn from one another by not suppressing truth. Salaam [edit: Where would you have me go to build understanding between us? One must be able to speak freely if understanding is to be reached.] |
Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 06 July 2012 at 1:22pm
I need you to clarify for me... Is this a forum meant to encourage conversation between people or only to debate certain issues? I do not come to debate. I come to converse and conversations always take different turns. I try to answer things which are brought up to me with my own thoughts. Yes my thoughts are many varied. Are not yours? Perhaps we just have different ways of conversing. Or perhaps I do not understand the purpose of this forum. I am also curious about how or why a post made by Nausheen came to be edited by peacemaker? Peace |
Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 06 July 2012 at 1:29pm
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I am more than willing and happy to visit the links presented but my computer does not handle multi-media. I do try to visit the links when I have opportunity to get on other computers... but I have to try to remember them all. Just so everyone knows, I do not ignore, or overlook, anything that is shared with me. :-) Note: This is also why it is difficult when any of my posts disappear. It makes it difficult, or impossible, to back track to find what it was I was wanting to look at. |
Posted By: peacemaker
Date Posted: 06 July 2012 at 4:29pm
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Assalamu Alaikum/Peace be upon you, Just
to let you know that *** mark indicates the minor editing in the quote box of �Originally posted by
peacemaker.� The deleted content that was erroneously attributed to me was �I
am Bible.� If you see my
original post, I didn�t write this. May
Allah (Exalted is He) guide us all. ------------- Then which of the favours of your Lord will ye deny? Qur'an 55:13 |
Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 06 July 2012 at 5:44pm
| Ok, I have had a chance now to go to the links(well, link, it was the same one posted twice), and I appreciate all that has been shared here. I see that just as Christianity broke into many factions the same exists within the Islamic faith. |
Posted By: Nausheen
Date Posted: 07 July 2012 at 4:53am
I want to respond to more than one issues - will see how much I actually can. I want to have conbversation, and I also want to remove misunderstandings as best as I can. Me neither is interested in debate :) I too have varied thought, but if I need to ask questions, I will organize them so as not to jump back and forth from topice - to me that does not help resolving misconceptions. Peacemaker can edit all posts because he is the moderator. ------------- <font color=purple>Wanu nazzilu minal Qurani ma huwa Shafaa un wa rahmatun lil mo'mineena wa la yaziduzzalimeena illa khasara.[/COLOR] |
Posted By: Nausheen
Date Posted: 07 July 2012 at 5:00am
This comment isn't for me, but wanted to comment on this one portions. We do not believe the torah or old testment can be referred to any more, because we believe it has been corrupted by human intervention. However it was my impression that for you it still holds true. Is it not the case? Please tell me, do christians beleive the torah has been corrupted? If so, then it cannot be used as a testimony for you. However if you believe it to be true then in my opinion you should accept its truth even if it is being presented to you by a muslim. In the times of muhammad sallallahu alaihe wasallam, he used to judge between the jews (who brought their disputes for him for resolution), according to the torah. He did not use the Quran to resolve their disputes. ------------- <font color=purple>Wanu nazzilu minal Qurani ma huwa Shafaa un wa rahmatun lil mo'mineena wa la yaziduzzalimeena illa khasara.[/COLOR] |
Posted By: Nausheen
Date Posted: 07 July 2012 at 6:28am
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------------- <font color=purple>Wanu nazzilu minal Qurani ma huwa Shafaa un wa rahmatun lil mo'mineena wa la yaziduzzalimeena illa khasara.[/COLOR] |
Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 07 July 2012 at 8:08pm
Hello Nausheen, I must keep my reply brief, but these are the things I felt the need to respond to. "ie, the one who knows the reality of God and His messengers, but does not accept it. "By this definition we are all unbelievers... None of us really knows the reality of God... those who accept what they know, do it by faith alone... i.e., believers Everyone's reality is different. "By this definition, anyone who rejects the truth of God is a kafir - a disbeliever."By this definition anyone who does not accept my truth is an unbeliever. Anyone who does not accept your truth is an unbeliever. That makes us all unbelievers. You pointed out that your truth is not my truth. So if we each judge by our own truth we have no peace. This is why we are the not judge... One who is higher than us is the judge... the One who created it all is the only one qualified to judge what is truth. "On a side note: we might not be discussing apostacy in islam when we discuss a state ruling implemented in a certain case from an islamic state - this is because of the poor state of affairs sadly practiced in several case in our islamic world. I would like to see this same logic applied by the Islamic world to other societies which they are quick to condemn. "Rest assured there s no hidden agenda here on islamicity. Im coming here since past 10 years. I moderated the forums during the worst times in history ... and there was nothing hidden even then, accept that we did not want members to become verbally barbaric with each other. "I'm sorry to be argumentative on this one subject, but there is no good reason why my posts are being deleted or not posted, and I have been given no reason. So I do not rest assured in your assurance, though I do appreciate your attempt. "america has penetrated in many muslims countries and has killed many muslims - this has been going on since the iran-iraq war, followed by the Qowait war, followed by the afghan war and so on."This is the argument I get from all Muslims. The point is #1. America is not there because they want to be there. They are there because of acts of war which one way or the other they have been drawn into. Right now people are expressing outrage because the U.S. has not come to the aid of Syria. As I like to point out as certain quote...excusing the strong language it is a quote... "Damned if you do, damned if you don't". #2. They are not there with the intent or purpose of killing Muslims. They are there because the people there are human beings in trouble... period. There is death on both sides. It is a war situation. Therefore, "This is the real state of affairs of the world we live in today."This is your truest statement. You also overlook the ethnic cleansing going on against Christians in Muslim countries in Africa and other places. If there is any persecution going on in the world... killing on the basis of religion only... it is against the Christians and the Jews. I am not saying that Muslims have not also been persecuted in the past and I would never minimize that fact. What I am saying is, it is not good to repeat the mistakes of the past but rather learn from them... like you say from your Qur'an... it is not the good thing to return an evil for an evil. "the western powers are proven real threats to peace and properity of muslim nations. - this the case is when they have not even got the chance to become a government in those countries. "I can not agree with this statement. The world gets drawn into the conflicts in the middle east due to world economy. It is not just the west. Russia, China, Japan... all the world are involved one way or the other. Other countries rely on the oil from the mid-east... the mid-east derives its income from the world purchase of its oil. The unrest in the middle east has always been there. Unrest comes from leaders who are power hungry, with an eye toward themselves, and an eye toward the world, instead of toward its own people. Thank you for taking the time to answer my questions. Peace and blessing upon the world |
Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 07 July 2012 at 8:11pm
Nausheen,"At times I might come out as strong in words, but its not my intention to be come rude."The same with me, it is never my intention to come across as rude. I hold no animosity when I speak. Only seek understanding and growth for all.  |
Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 07 July 2012 at 8:51pm
Hi Nausheen, I always welcome any comment. All these things make me think. Regarding this; I can not speak for all those who call themselves Christian, and what I say does not speak for Christians. I can only share what I believe. We are all individuals in our thinking. I say this... all things have the potential to be corrupted by man. This does not mean that they are. What I can say is this, I have read the scriptures and they speak to me of Truth. Never in my life have I been able to memorize anything in all my school years but when I began to read and study my Bible I found that these words came to live in me just as the Bible tells me... the Bible tells me that God's word is "alive and active" and He[the Word] will come to live in you. It tells me to renew my mind daily with the Word of God, meaning to keep Him alive in me, and my life will be transformed. I have seen this to be true. His words live in me without even trying to memorize. I have tested them... severely... may God forgive me, and I believe He does because it is God Himself who tells us that we are to discern the Truth... to be watchful. I have studied Muhammad and his word... and I am left with conflicted thoughts, which I do not think would be allowed to be posted here. I wish they would because I would welcome feedback. "you should accept its truth even if it is being presented to you by a muslim."This I want you to understand too. I am not rejecting or accepting in this case, and you are correct it wouldn't matter who presented it to me. I was pointing out different scenarios of what the truth may be. I only wish to inspire deeper thinking into these matters. I guess I was challenging him to think about whether or not he accepted that the Torah was corrupted, and if so, how do we know what parts. I also pointed out that he missed the qualifying statement in the matter... that it is; if they say, "let us go and serve other gods" and that we all... Jews, Christians and Muslims say we serve the God of Abraham. This makes us the same. "In the times of muhammad sallallahu alaihe wasallam, he used to judge between the jews (who brought their disputes for him for resolution), according to the torah. He did not use the Quran to resolve their disputes."I appreciate the beauty of this statement but how could Muhammad, who could not read, use the Torah to judge conflicts between Jews? (and have we gone off topic...  . I myself do not care, because to me it is all good, and all part of our conversation which to me is good. )Salaam. Blessings of God to all the world |
Posted By: iec786
Date Posted: 07 July 2012 at 11:23pm
Hi Caringheart, You see this is the problem.You as a Christian tell us that we are not loving and we only want go crazy,but you do not quote the scripture when you quote.This is a verse from the old Testament. APOSTASY : ". . . neither shall thine eye pity him (the apostate), neither shalt thou spare him, neither shalt thou conceal him: "But thou shalt SURELY KILL HIM: thine hand shall be first upon him TO PUT HIM TO DEATH . . ." DEUTRONOMY 13:8,9 Now this is a quote from the new Testament. "THE PRINCE OF PEACE," boasts that he had not come to bring peace on earth but fire and division! "I came to set the earth on fire, and how I wish that it were ALREADY KINDLED. "Do you supposed that I came to bring peace to the world? No, not peace BUT DIVISION." LUKE 12:49 and 51 HATE AS FOUNDATION OF HIS (JESUS') FAITH: "If any man come to me, and HATE NOT his father, and mother, and wife, and children . . . HE CANNOT be my disciple." LUKE 14:26 English Standard Version (�2001) But as for these enemies of mine, who did not want me to reign over them, bring them here and slaughter them before me.��Luke 19:27 |
Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 12 July 2012 at 9:29pm
Hello iec, I have taken my time to come back to this after I'd had some time to spend with my God, and when I am not so tired so that I can give you a proper response. Upon revisiting your response I want to address this though; "You as a Christian tell us that we are not loving and we only want go crazy..."I don't say any such thing. I treat each person as an individual, and that is why I am involving myself in discussions, so that I can reach proper conclusions based on the conversations that I am able to have. I will take each of the scriptures that you quote individually; APOSTASY : ". . . neither shall thine eye pity him (the apostate), This is an old testament teaching and I believe Jesus was sent because God was 'doing a new thing'. "Behold, I am doing a new thing; now it springs forth, do you not perceive it?" - from Isaiah [Edit: and now I see I already answered this in my first response. Did you read what I wrote?] "THE PRINCE OF PEACE," boasts that he had not come to bringThis is an oft' misunderstood quote. In saying this Jesus is simply pointing out that by His coming the 'sheep' and the 'goats' would be divided... that those who belong to Him(to God) would be separated from those who do not.(Matthew 25:31-46, the words of Jesus, it is good to read them all if you can) [Don't know how much I like being compared to sheep and goats. lol] You can not love God and the world, you belong to one or the other, for 'love of one is enmity with the other'. If you love God you will hate the world, and if you love the world you will hate God. 'Man can not serve two masters'. This is the division and the fire of which Jesus speaks. HATE AS FOUNDATION OF HIS (JESUS') FAITH:Again, just like the Qur'an, you must be able to understand what is written. Hate is not the foundation of Jesus faith... Love is... the Love of Him(Love of God) and His sacrifice for us. This passage speaks only to the fact that no one should take a higher place in the heart than God. Here, I believe there may be some error in translating the greek word into the word hate. I do not believe it means hate in the sense that we would mean it. Put it this way... I have learned no hate from the teaching of Jesus or from His life, or the great sacrifice He made for me. But as for these enemies of mine, who did not want me to reign over them, bring them here and slaughter them before me.��Luke 19:27Now this, yes. I recently read this passage myself and I admit it is a passage that I struggle with. It sounds too much like an old testament teaching seeped into the new testament teaching. As I have often said... the Word of God was still written down by fallible man. This is why we must seek to discern Truth in all things. We must seek after God and His guidance. What does He speak to our hearts. Salaam  |
Posted By: iec786
Date Posted: 12 July 2012 at 11:38pm
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[/QUOTE]Hello iec,I have taken my time to come back to this after I'd had some time to spend with my God, and when I am not so tired so that I can give you a proper response.You need to relax,why are you so tired what job are you into?� [IMG]smileys/smiley1.gif" align="absmiddle" alt="Smile" />Upon revisiting your response I want to address this though; "You as a Christian tell us that we are not loving and we only want go crazy..."I don't say any such thing.� I treat each person as an individual, and that is why I am involving myself in discussions, so that I can reach proper conclusions based on the conversations that I am able to have.I will take each of the scriptures that you quote individually; APOSTASY : ". . . neither shall thine eye pity him (the apostate),neither shalt thou spare him, neither shalt thou conceal him:"But thou shalt SURELY KILL HIM: thine hand shall be firstupon him TO PUT HIM TO DEATH . . ." DEUTRONOMY 13:8,9This is an old testament teaching and I believe Jesus was sent because God was 'doing a new thing'.� "Behold, I am doing a new thing; now it springs forth, do you not perceive it?" - from Isaiah[Edit:� and now I see I already answered this in my first response.I would like to put biblical words to this.New Living Translation (�2007) "Don't misunderstand why I have come. I did not come to abolish the law of Moses or the writings of the prophets. No, I came to accomplish their purpose.� Did you read what I wrote?] "THE PRINCE OF PEACE," boasts that he had not come to bringpeace on earth but fire and division!�� "I came to set the earth on fire, and how I wish that it wereALREADY KINDLED."Do you supposed that I came to bring peace to the world?No, not peace BUT DIVISION." LUKE 12:49 and 51This is an oft' misunderstood quote.� In saying this Jesus is simply pointing out that by His coming the 'sheep' and the 'goats' would be divided... that those who belong to Him(to God) would be separated from those who do not.(Matthew 25:31-46, the words of Jesus, it is good to read them all if you can)� [Don't know how much I like being compared to sheep and goats.� lol]me neither lol You can not love God and the world, you belong to one or the other, for 'love of one is enmity with the other'.� If you love God you will hate the world, and if you love the world you will hate God.� 'Man can not serve two masters'.This is the division and the fire of which Jesus speaks.dont you think that was a bit to harsh? HATE AS FOUNDATION OF HIS (JESUS') FAITH:�� "If any man come to me, and HATE NOT his father, andmother, and wife, and children . . . HE CANNOT be mydisciple." LUKE 14:26Again, just like the Qur'an, you must be able to understand what is written.Hate is not the foundation of Jesus faith... Love is... the Love of Him(Love of God) and His sacrifice for us.This passage speaks only to the fact that no one should take a higher place in the heart than God.Here, I believe there may be some error in translating the greek word into the word hate.� I do not believe it means hate in the sense that we would mean it.� Put it this way... I have learned no hate from the teaching of Jesus or from His life, or the great sacrifice He made for me. But as for these enemies of mine, who did not want me to reign over them, bring them here and slaughter them before me.��Luke 19:27Now this, yes.� I recently read this passage myself and I admit it is a passage that I struggle with.This is not the words of Jesus and that is the problem we are having.� It sounds too much like an old testament teaching seeped into the new testament teaching.� As I have often said... the Word of God was still written down by fallible man.� This is why we must seek to discern Truth in all things.� We must seek after God and His guidance.� What does He speak to our hearts.now my sister this is why i always say if you have the Old testament and you have a New testament why not the final Testament Al-Quraan the last Testament.Peace be unto you. Salaam[IMG]smileys/smiley27.gif" align="absmiddle" alt="Heart" />[/QUOTE] 
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Posted By: honeto
Date Posted: 14 July 2012 at 4:19pm
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Caringheart,
not so easy, you must face the reality of what is there in the OT claimed to be part of a Christian's holy book, "the Bible". I understand the dilemma a Christian must go through when dealing with the contents of the OT that haunt a thoughtful Christian. The theory that "Jesus came to do away from old laws" and all those teachings that somehow go against the lovey dovey teachings of Jesus no longer apply to practice falls apart when we look just a couple of clear verses associated with Jesus: Matt 5:17 �Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill. Matt 5:18 For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled. Do we need anything clearer than this to tell us that each and everything written down as law in the OT must be fulfilled? Hasan ------------- The friends of God will certainly have nothing to fear, nor will they be grieved. Al Quran 10:62 |
Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 14 July 2012 at 4:58pm
Greetings Hasan, Just as an aside, this calls to mind a post that I happened upon the other night, titled something like; 'Did God create man, or did man create God?', putting forth the idea that it is more likely that man created God. I may tend to agree. While for me, there is no denial of God, I can also see where it is most entirely likely that man creates God in his own image, rather than the other way around. I think God is that compass that we have within us to live a certain way, and those that lack that compass, lack God. But the "Word of God", may be just man putting into words what his own compass is telling him. Anyway, regarding the scriptures of Jesus. Again, I see that it is in the understanding, and the misunderstanding. "See I am doing a new thing" refers to God leading us in a new way... not with fear, but with Love... with His Son. Correct Jesus did not do away with the old law but He did come to show us a new way to God... through Love rather than fear... to reach each by his heart, not through threat of punishment, but through the realization that consequences are the result of sin, and no one escapes from the judgement of God. That it is love of God and understanding His great Love for us, that leads into obedience to God. The two scriptures refer to different things. I do see where you might think the two conflict. I do not see the conflict. One is in the judgement of man to punish, and the other puts judgement in the hands of God alone. I find Jesus prescription to be the correct one. |
Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 15 July 2012 at 8:28pm
[/QUOTE]Hello Ismail, "me neither lol"Glad you can laugh and smile with me. "This is the division and the fire of which Jesus speaks. dont you think that was a bit to harsh?"Hmmm, not really. I have seen it happen in my family, as my children went into the world and sin took hold... them walking away from God. I literally could see the battle going on between good and evil. I will not abandon my God and it truly has caused very painful division in the family. I have been painfully aware of the pain we cause to our Creator. Two of my children are away from God and away from the family. I am divided in my family of origin as well... my mother, my sister... they do not know God. So choosing to follow Him truly is choosing to take up one's cross and bear it... truly loving and trusting God above all else. It truly separates us from others. Choosing God truly causes divisions. I can see why God would be anxious to see this pain and division among His creation be at an end. This is why I have respect for the Muslim family and culture... they seem to have remained more insulated from the evil influences of the world. They are still holding it together in obedience to God more so than those who have been exposed to so much freedom for so long. I do wonder how long it will last even in the Muslim community. The Amish have kept their communities mainly unpolluted in a polluted world. More so than anyone else I say. I do wonder how far evil has permeated even into the Muslim culture... abuse in the family, divorce. The evil one prevails greater and greater in the world. "now my sister this is why i always say if you have the Old testament and you have a New testament why not the final Testament Al-Quraan the last Testament.Peace be unto you. "You make me smile. I very much appreciate your answer and this is why I am seeking. Simple answer though; because I am not convinced of Muhammad as prophet of God. My feelings about Muhammad are mixed and inconclusive. I feel that though Muhammad may have tried to bring the Word of God, that another may have had influence over him. He is the one who changes the Word, and 'preaches a different Gospel than the one that has been given'. I fear that though Muhammad may have tried to bring the Word of God, that good may have been used for evil... the devil is a master of deception and a little bit of truth makes a thing easier to sell. I don't like that the word as given by Muhammad promotes division and prejudice among people. It teaches against the Christ who has already come. We were warned about these things that would come. 'Who is it that causes division among you?' Who causes disentions? I can not accept the word of Muhammad because he was always changing it to fit circumstances. I can not accept it because it speaks against whole groups of people. He spoke against certain people, "Jews and people of the Book", with no distinction. He doesn't just speak against the wayward, those who quite obviously serve only their own selfish pleasures and are a bane to society. No, he singles out entire groups of people with no regard for what their individual actions say about themselves. I have never been against Islam, but Islam has been against us. So how do we build brotherhood between all peoples? I wish to see us unite and foil the devil's plans. I believe we can only do it with Love. With Love comes trust. God tells us that without the return of His Son it will not be accomplished. Sadly I can see why this would have to be true. Only God can overcome the forces of evil in this world. 12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places. 13 Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand. 14 Stand therefore, having your loins girt about with truth, and having on the breastplate of righteousness; 15 And your feet shod with the preparation of the gospel of peace Muhammad believes that people can accomplish this. I believe this is the deceit of the devil. It is the way he leads us into error. I am interested in seeking understanding and peace between all of God's creation.
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Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 15 July 2012 at 8:36pm
I see that I overlooked this... I have health issues that keep me tired. I used to handle Central America accounts for DOLE Pineapple company. I currently do not work. Thus the freedom to get closer to my God and to learn more about others. |
Posted By: honeto
Date Posted: 16 July 2012 at 5:46pm
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Caringheart,
nice try but my point is all I wanted to make. That Jesus did not come to free anyone from the law mentioned in the OT, according to those verses I posted.
Also the love thingy y'all preach dos not make sense as nothing has changed as far as what peopel do. They still disobey God, will God not punish them for their willfull trespasses out of love? If we look at the scripture this love thngy that y'all preach does not seem to be real. Don't take me wrong, we Muslims believe God loves us and will show His Mercy love and forgiveness on those who do not deny Him and do not engage in willfull disobdiences.
Matthew 18:8 �If your hand or foot causes you to sin, cut it off and cast it from you. It is better for you to enter into life lame or maimed, rather than having two hands or two feet, to be cast into the everlasting fire. "Hasan------------- The friends of God will certainly have nothing to fear, nor will they be grieved. Al Quran 10:62 |
Posted By: bunter
Date Posted: 17 July 2012 at 12:03pm
The Bible teaches that Jesus came to free us from sin, the law is not the problem it is sin. One must ask why would God do that since we are all deserving of punishment? Can you not see that if God is just he cannot ignore sin, brush it under the carpet. If he is to redeem us he has to do it so that his justice is satisfied. |
Posted By: honeto
Date Posted: 18 July 2012 at 4:08pm
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bunter,
yes, God is Just, Also God is Merciful, and Forgiving. How God can be both? For us hard to figure that out because we don't have the knowledge of the unseen, for God not so. God knows All, what we do open or secretly, what we intend or think.
God Almighty says, that none will be done injustice. Even the tinniest good or the tinniest bad does not escape His knowledge.
Absolute Justice without Forgviness is for all those, who deny Him and His power and authority, cover up the truth when it is manifest to them and are disobedient to Him.
His Mercy and Forgiveness is for those who acknowledge and serve their maker. They humble themselves in front of their Creator, acknowleging their mistakes, and asking His forgiveness and guidance. They serve Him with a heart that is in constant awareness that God is watching and thus they mend their actions according to His Will.
The verse (Matt18:8) is clearly saying that if you sin you must pay its punishment here if you want to come clean in the hereafter. If you try to escape the punishment for a sin you did, you will not escape absolute Justice by God. So for example, if one steals or kills and somhow escapes the law and justice and end up living without paying for that crime God will do the jutice and punish that person in this life and for sure in the hereafter. Jesus is quoted to have warned that if you want to enter Paradise and should you commit a crime, it is better for you to get its punishment here in this world, pay for your sins here rather escaping because if you do not, your whole body will suffer the consequesnces in the hereafter.
Also the point made in response to those, who say that Jesus paid with his blood for their sins. The above quote tells us othwise. He is very clear to preach that if your hand commits a sin, pay for that sin here by its just punishment or you will pay for it dearly later which goes against the concept that Jesus already has paid for the sins of the world, according to the same Bible. And that was not even the point. The point was that there are some who say that some of those laws of the OT, that seem too crude for a Christian (or even a Jew) to follow were abolished with the coming of Jesus. They say that Jesus freed us from those laws. Not so said Jesus according to the Bible itself.
And last but not least all of this go back to the following verse from the OT brother iec786 posted: APOSTASY : ". . . neither shall thine eye pity him (the apostate), neither shalt thou spare him, neither shalt thou conceal him: "But thou shalt SURELY KILL HIM: thine hand shall be first
upon him TO PUT HIM TO DEATH . . ." DEUTRONOMY 13:8,9 There are many Christians who wish that verses like this disappear, but they are there until someone like King James come along and orders a rewriting or new version?
Hasan
------------- The friends of God will certainly have nothing to fear, nor will they be grieved. Al Quran 10:62 |
Posted By: bunter
Date Posted: 19 July 2012 at 10:14am
I wonder what you think justice is? If I deliberately kill your brother and later sincerely repent, say I'm sorry will that be enough? You will forgive me and I can go free? Also, here notice that your brother is still dead. I am not sure I like your god as he only seems to care about those who honour him - that's easy, if I only have to like people who like me, there is no effort need and no sacrifice. But Jesus says love your enemies, do good to those who persecute you. When Jesus walked the earth he did not hang out with the religious people he sought our those who were considered bad in order to redeem them and bring them into a right relationship with God. None of us are good enough, the very best we can do falls short and so we need redemption. You are mistaken over Matthew 18:8. We Jesus speaks of cutting off a hand or foot he is not talking about punishment and he is not speaking literally, to take the verse as an instruction would be plain st**id. What Jesus is saying is that sin is such a serious and hateful thing we must avoid it at all costs. What the Bible teaches is that Jesus suffered for our sins to make atonement, there is and was nothing we could do to make us right with God. If you think you are good enough for God or think you can make yourself good enough then you are mistaken and a good look at yourself will show just how wicked and deceitful are selfish you really are - just like the test of us. There are many laws in the OT But many are no longer relevant - for example there is a law about someone with a skin desease having to show themselves to a priest if they get better for confirmation. Well no one in their right mind would think that we are supposed to take that literally for all time - no, there is a principle here and that is how we treat that law. Finally, King James commissioned a Bibke translation and assembled the best scholars he could find and they used the best manuscripts then available - it is total nonsense to suggest the King decided what was in and what was out. Of course there are things in the Bible that are uncomfortable to read, they are supposed to be uncomfortable because they refer to sin and wrong doing. Do you rejoice and praise Allah when you read in the Quran that molten brass will be poured on people in hell? |
Posted By: honeto
Date Posted: 20 July 2012 at 4:25pm
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bunter,
you are asking me a question, only God can answer because as I said before He has knowledge of things that you and I don't. As far as honoring God, as His creations that will be the most rightful thing to do. "Jesus says love your enemies" Ya'll have to provide me one living example of that person who can practice that teaching ya'll use so frequently but none cannot live by. As far as none of us is good? Yes and no, only God knows since only God has full knowledge about all. By the way If I remember from the Bible correctly, wasn't it Jesus himself who said that " why call me good , only God is good". While you are told that he was good sinless and god? When we knowingly cover up the truth then we close the way of Forgiveness of God. God is forgiving, and those who follow the truth manifest to them and do not cover up the truth with falsehood will find forgiveness and their good deeds multiplied and God pleased with them. And if God is please with one, does that need anything else, God All powerful grant that person Paradise. Can anyone stop that when God is incharge? One person will not pay for the other, nor one can save the other, or pay ransom through killing, blood, gold, or anything. if God were to forgive anyone, is there any that can stop Him or challenge? No none. About Matt 18:8, you blame me for taking literally. But you don not see doing that same st**id thing when saying he is son of God because he said so. So it is OK for you to choose when it suits your point to use literally or otherwise try to find hidden meanings! About OT laws, I only showed you the contradiction that some say Jesus came to free them from old laws, while the book you follow says he did not. In fact I quoted the verse where he says, I came to fulfill the law to the tinniest piece. Hasan ------------- The friends of God will certainly have nothing to fear, nor will they be grieved. Al Quran 10:62 |
Posted By: bunter
Date Posted: 23 July 2012 at 7:32am
What would your teaching be instead "hate your enemies"? But an example might be the Muslim father in Manchester who when his three sons were murdered in riots he did not cry out for vengeance but asked for peace. Jesus himself is an example for he said at his crucifixion, "father forgive them..."
Is God only 'in chage' sometimes then? But we all cover up the truth, we all sin in that way and that is why we need God for it is beyond our power to earn forgiveness. I have no idea why you find the idea of someone else paying - in Islam it is well understood concept and surely it is true that when wrong is done there are always those who suffer.
So what are we to do, take everything literally? The idea that we should do that is so absurd as to be unthinkable. Indeed, Averroes, one of your own great scholars proposed a rule or you can say method of looking at a text to decide if it was to be taken literally or not - I guess you have never thought about it or perhaps you take everything in Islam literally?
You have your opinion that is all. Jesus said the whole law is summed up by saying love the Lord your God with all you heart and soul and mind and love your neighbour as yourself - so if one does these two then the law is fulfilled in every part or do you find such a command of no value? |
Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 23 July 2012 at 8:53pm
Hello Hasan, I sometimes wonder if you've read what I've written. This for instance; "One is in the judgement of man to punish, and the other puts judgement in the hands of God alone." We are in agreement, just as you state, Jesus did not come to abolish the law. He did however make it more clear that it is in God's hands to judge. As far as the 'love thingy', as you put it You are partially correct about that as well. Those who do not love God have not changed. However, those who do love God are changed greatly. I have seen it. You say people have not changed... this comes as no surprise. The great majority are not. We are clearly told that in this world we will have temptations. We are clearly told that we can not overcome these on our own but only with the Holy Spirit living in us... only with God leading us. And Jesus was quite clear that the 'path and the gate are narrow, and there are few who find it'. The 'love thingy' does work for those who have truly found it. I have seen it. Others may pretend they have found the way, and they may think they are hiding their sins, but God sees all. God knows the heart and He knows those that belong to Him. Peace be on your day. Blessings and Salaam, Caringheart I think you can look within the Muslim community as well and see who belongs to God and who only appears to belong to God. It is true of all peoples... there are those who act from a love of God and those who do not. |
Posted By: Nausheen
Date Posted: 26 July 2012 at 11:52pm
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HOW DOES ISLAM DEFINE APOSTASY? IS IT PERMISSIBLE FOR A MUSLIM TO CONVERT TO ANOTHER FAITH? HOW CAN LAWS AGAINST APOSTASY AND BLASPHEMY BE RECONCILED WITH THE KORANIC INJUNCTION OF �NO COMPULSION IN RELIGION�? http://ageofjahiliyah.wordpress.com/2007/09/01/abdal-hakim-murad-on-jihad-apostasy-rights-of-muslim-women/ - http://ageofjahiliyah.wordpress.com/2007/09/01/abdal-hakim-murad-on-jihad-apostasy-rights-of-muslim-women/
Traditional human communities believe that truth leads to salvation, and error to damnation. It is probable that very many religious people in a variety of denominations still believe this. Historically, religiously-faithful princes have therefore seen it as necessary to use the coercive power of the state to forbid apostasy. One of the most powerful and persistent manifestations of this understanding in history was the Inquisition, which was definitively abolished in 1834. Protestant countries also respected this drastic principle; in fact, the first converts to Islam in Britain were impaled on stakes. In a Hindu context, �apostasy� was often classified as violation of caste rules and boundaries, and similarly drastic consequences could follow. After the Mongol sack of Baghdad in 1253, Buddhists who converted to Islam were routinely put to death. The four canonical schools of Sunni Islamic law, and also most pre-modern Shi�a jurists, recommend similarly drastic penalties, although the judge is enjoined to �look for ambiguities� in order to avert the death penalty wherever possible. The Ottoman Caliphate, the supreme representative of Sunni Islam, formally abolished this penalty in the aftermath of the so-called Tanzimat reforms launched in 1839. The Shaykh al-Islam, the supreme head of the religious courts and colleges, ratified this major shift in traditional legal doctrine. It was pointed out that there is no verse in the Qur�an that lays down a punishment for apostasy (although chapter 5 verse 54 and chapter 2 verse 217 predict a punishment in the next world). It was also pointed out that the ambiguities in the hadith (the sayings of the Prophet) suggest that apostasy is only an offense when combined with the crime of treason. These ambiguities led some medieval Muslims, long before the advent of modernisation, to reject the majority view. Prominent among them one may name al-Nakha�i (d.713), al-Thawri (d.772), al-Sarakhsi (d. 1090), al-Baji (d. 1081), and al-Sha�rani (d.1565). The debate triggered by the Ottoman reform was continued when al-Azhar University in Cairo, the supreme religious authority in the Arab world, delivered a formal fatwa (religious edict) in 1958, which confirmed the abolition of the classical law in this area. Among radical Salafis and Wahhabis who do not accept the verdicts of the Ottoman or the Azhar scholars, it is generally believed that the majority medieval view should still be enforced. The best discussion of the controversy is the book by Mohammed Hashim Kamali, �Freedom of Expression in Islam� (Cambridge, 1997). Caringheart, I owe this knowledge to you. Thank you for asking questions on apostacy - since I did not know a detailed answer to your concerns on apostacy, had submited a request to Q&A section on http://www.Seekersguidance.com - www.Seekersguidance.com and received the above link from them.
Hope it clarified for you some issues, as it did for me.
------------- <font color=purple>Wanu nazzilu minal Qurani ma huwa Shafaa un wa rahmatun lil mo'mineena wa la yaziduzzalimeena illa khasara.[/COLOR] |
Posted By: Nausheen
Date Posted: 27 July 2012 at 12:54am
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Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 27 July 2012 at 5:53pm
 Yes Nausheen, this is just what I want... to encourage people to do research for themselves into understanding and not fear questions and looking into their own faith. A very good article. Thanks. It definitely clarifies and enlightens. Alot of misunderstanding comes simply from not knowing what the top rulers in the religion (i.e., like the Pope in Catholicism... I did not know that there was a similar thing in Islam.) but not knowing what the actual accepted doctrine is and only knowing what one sees in some places. I think we would have less problem accepting Islam knowing that this is not an approved practice and was condemned as long ago as the Ottoman Empire. That would explain the 'peace of Islam' that others identify with. The world would have an easier time if we did not still see in Islam the practice of putting to death for apostasy in some places. But then there was also a foolish minister in the Christian faith that wanted to burn Qur'ans and I am sure this was not approved of by the Pope. The thing is, one foolish minister and burning books, is a far cry from the ruler of a country and killing people. I think the thing is, the Pope has a louder voice in the world. He makes sure he is heard, and since the things he speaks are mainly seen to be observed, we have trust in his word. Thanks again from my Now I know why you have been away for so long?  Just an after thought; I think there are far too many Muslims who do not know this and they speak far too often with hate rather than love. We should all endeavor to bring others to God through love. If they refuse our way then it is between them and God, not they and myself. It is not for me to punish. Disobedience has its own consequences. God only seeks to protect and save us from consequences. |
Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 27 July 2012 at 5:58pm
You mean basically like having translators... or a team of researchers who would search the scripture of the Torah? Wouldn't the resolution of the dispute then be more attributable to the interpreters or researchers than to Muhammad? |
Posted By: honeto
Date Posted: 27 July 2012 at 6:27pm
Caringheart, what you have just said above mean, that there was nothing new about love then. How you described that those who love God will be successful was always the way, and that is how in Islam God has told us. Those who love God and show that love in practice to Him and to His creation are the one achieving salvation. So, that love was nothing new as you all try to portray when you say: " Love" was a new thing, it was not. Thanks, Hasan ------------- The friends of God will certainly have nothing to fear, nor will they be grieved. Al Quran 10:62 |
Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 27 July 2012 at 7:21pm
Hello Hasan, If I understood you correctly here(and I am not sure that I have), you have side tracked. God of the old testament was about punishment. 'Do as I say or there will be punishment.' Jesus taught 'love God as He loves you'. Jesus showed us how much God loves us. Is Islam about punishment for disobedience(reward for good), or is it about being changed for love of God? Does Islam teach old testament or new testament, or both? Isn't Islam's teaching more about serving self than about serving God? Do this and you will get that... as opposed to love God because He so loves you and this is what He deserves. |
Posted By: Bigmo
Date Posted: 28 July 2012 at 4:08am
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16:82 But
if they turn away from you, your only duty is a clear
delivery of the Message
4:79-80 Say: �Whatever good betides you is from God and whatever evil betides you is from your own self and that We have sent you to mankind only as a messenger and all sufficing is God as witness. Whoso obeys the Messenger, he indeed obeys God. And for those who turn away, We have not sent you as a keeper." 17:53-54 And tell my servants that they should speak in a most kindly manner. Verily, Satan is always ready to stir up discord between men; for verily; Satan is mans foe.... Hence, we have not sent you with power to determine their Faith 24.54. Say: "Obey God, and obey the Messenger, but if ye turn away, he is only responsible for the duty placed on him and ye for that placed on you. If ye obey him, ye shall be on right guidance. The Messenger's duty is only to preach the clear (Message). 88:21 22; And so, exhort them your task is only to exhort; you cannot compel them to believe. 42:6 48 And whoso takes for patrons others besides God, over them does God keep a watch. Mark, you are not a keeper over them. But if they turn aside from you (do not get disheartened), for We have not sent you to be a keeper over them; your task is but to preach 64:12 Obey God then and obey the Messenger, but if you turn away (no blame shall attach to our Messenger), for the duty of Our Messenger is just to deliver the message. 28.55-56 And when they hear vain talk, they turn away there from and say: "To us our deeds, and to you yours; peace be to you: we seek not the ignorant," It is true thou wilt not be able to guide whom thou lovest; but God guides those whom He will and He knows best those who receive guidance 39:41 Assuredly, We have sent down the Book to you in right form for the good of man. Whoso guided himself by it does so to his own advantage, and whoso turns away from it does so at his own loss. You certainly are not their keeper. 67:25 26 And they ask, "When shall the promise be fulfilled if you speak the Truth?" Say, "The knowledge of it is verily with God alone, and verily I am but a plain warner." As we can clearly see, many of the verses that talks about obeying the prophet also emphasizes the prophet's limited authority, something that the Islamic sects do not recognize. The ruler to them has the authority to punish people for what they consider sins like drinking alcohol, eating pork, not fasting Ramadan, watching pornos etc. The Koran meanwhile focuses on crimes against another like stealing, killing, slandering of women falsely and oppression. It gave the believers the right to fight against those who fight them but not to transgress. It also gave people the right to defend themselves against evictions from their lands. There is no talk about punishing people for something that does not concern somebody else's right. Adultery is the only place where the Koran diverted from this due to the fact that a adultery affects another party. Here the Koran sees adultery as affecting the other partner in a marriage. It�s a betrayal and a breaking of oath. But even then it placed strict standards on that but was lenient when it came to punishing slanders of women. Adultery needs four witnesses but the slander can get punished just from opening his mouth without four witnesses. It�s clear that the verse made it very difficult to implement on adultery but very easy to implement on the slanderer. Further reading of the verse about the Zani and Zania shows us that the issue came up concerning slandering of one of the prophet�s wife presumably. But adultery still affects another party as its a breaking of an oath between a man and a woman and is an act of betrayal. The Koran cannot order the prophet to punish people for sins, that God's job. The Koran gave people the right and freedom to disbelieve let alone sin. Plus how the Koran understands sins is very different than how the sects understand sins. In the end the sects had no choice but to abrogate many of these verses, usually invoking the "sword verse". They claim that many of these verses that gave the prophet limited authority(over those who chose to disobey him) has been abrogated by verse 9-5 or verse 9-29. However these verses were about the wars with the pagans, and verse 9-13 and many other verses makes it clear who instigated these battles and why. The Jizya verse (9-29) also was claimed by the sects to be a tax to be paid by non Muslims in an Islamic state for protection. However Jizya never came concerning the Medina community where the prophet and his followers had a community. And only came upon the believers entering of Mecca. Jizya could have easily been compensation for the loss of property and homes that the believers suffered after being forced into exile. The Koran forbade prophets from seeking any form of reward. They can however accept charity on behalf of the believers. But the Sunnah claimed otherwise. In it the prophet was ordered to fight the people till they acknowledge monotheism and also in it the prophet ordered the execution of those who apostate. That�s why they abrogated many of the verses that limited his authority. Then they simply transferred that authority to the Muslim ruler by default. The Ridda war story about Abu Bakr is a case study of this. In that story Abu Bakr apparently fought people for not paying Zakat. Now the authority was transferred from God to the prophet to one of his companions. This made it very easy to then transfer that authority to the ruler. This is why you see places where Shariah law is implemented filled with such concepts like searching cars for alcohol or flogging people for watching pornos or not wearing proper attire. None of this should concern anyone but it has become a punishable sin. God only punishes those who did not get caught and punished in this world. The sects claimed that once punished the sin falls away and disappears. You will not find such a concept in the Koran. There God punishes in a million ways and does not need humans to punish for him. I think the sects introduced this conc3ept to make people more accepting of this by making them think its better for them since God's punishment is more severe. They also introduced stoning the adulterer by claiming the Zina verse in the Koran is concerning fornification and not adultery. They claimed that the verse about stoning was lost and is not included in the Koran but the ruling remains. This of course violated not only the freedom aspect of the Koran but also an eye for an eye and a life for a life. In the Koran, any punishment must be reciprocal and proportionate to the crime and it also must be targeted towards the actual perpetrators of the crime and not someone else associated to the criminal as the case with tribal laws that simply targets anyone from that tribe. They broke this by lower the bar for executions. Some Sunni scholars also gave the authority to execute homosexuals and enslave female prisoners and execute male prisoners. Something the Koran forbade. The Koran gave two options for prisoners, either freedom or ransom of some sort. They gave this authority to the ruler. This is all very sad as the taking of someone�s life is no easy matter in the Koran. God should take life and not humans, but if a person takes a life then he lost his right to live, but even then the Koran gave exile from the community as another option for murder especially if the person shows repentance. So an eye for an eye and a tooth for tooth somehow ended up being an eye for an eye lash and a tooth for a jaw. To be fair the Sunni orthodoxy rarely practiced some of these laws. We know of no time in history where adulterers were stoned to death. Apostasy was rarely practiced, unlike the Christians in Europe that practiced these laws left and right. So the Sunni jurist knew that some of these laws could be controversial and therefore they tended to avoid them. Its very unfortunate the current Islamist in Iran and Sudan and the Salafis in generally never understood why these laws were controversial. But in doing so they exposed much aspect of the sects that people were not aware of. The Sufis provided a convenient cover as they shunned legalism. But even the clerics understood that these laws were controversial. Its not easy in Islam to execute outside of murder. But this wise tradition was broken. That�s very unfortunant as now we see the culture of death has spread among Muslims till Islam became synonymous with violence and killing. Once you lower the bar it spirals out of control. One thing is crystal clear from all this. The Koran's take on human authority and freedom is RADICALLY different than how the Sunni/Shia sects understand it. Therefore the biggest difference between a Koranic state and a Sunni or Shia state will come in the form of the state's authority over the masses. It is this, more than anything else, that separates the Koran from the Sunnah. That�s why the Abbasids championed the Sunnah over the Mutazilites. The Mutaziltes couldn't find the ink inthe Koran to give them such draconian authority. The sects did that by first bringing the divine authority from God to prophet, then propet to Caliph (companions) and now that authority is in Omar Al Bashir, Khamenei, Mullah Omar and Al Saud. And that�s very sad. |
Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 29 July 2012 at 8:12pm
So basically, according to what you are saying here, it shows that God intended for His rule to reign and as has always happened in the past, rulers and leaders do not follow the rule of God. The problem that I see in Islam is that these rulers still believe that they are ruling according to what their religion teaches. The religion needs to be separated from earthly rule since obviously no earthly man, or ruler, has ever been able to abide by the rules of God. When you read the ancient scriptures you see that God always anointed one earthly ruler and a separate spiritual leader. Narated By Anas : Allah's Apostle said, "Help your brother, whether he is an oppressor or he is an oppressed one. People asked, "O Allah's Apostle! It is all right to help him if he is oppressed, but how should we help him if he is an oppressor?" The Prophet said, "By preventing him from oppressing others." - Sahih Bukhari Volume 003, Book 043, Hadith Number 624.Does America not fulfill the command of this Hadith? "While non-retaliation against a personal injury is frequently a virtue (see the Holy Qur�an, chapter 41 verse 34), Islam believes that human communities have the right to collective self-defense, since non-resistance to aggression would result in a world dominated by tyrants (see Holy Qur�an, 22:40). Under some circumstances, Muslim scholars will allow oppressed peoples to rebel against their oppressors. They might, therefore, classify the American War of Independence as a form of jihad, broadly understood. When Bosnia was faced with ethnic cleansing in 1992, the Muslim authorities there authorized the use of force to defend the country�s Muslim minority. The alternative would have been mass murder and mass rape, and therefore jihad was lawful. Furthermore, some Muslim scholars will permit a non-defensive �idealist� war to establish justice and freedom in a neighboring country. This is analogous, perhaps, to the decision of the United Kingdom to declare war on Germany on September 3, 1939, in response to the German invasion of Poland. There are more recent analogies as well, including very recent instances in which Western powers have used force to overthrow tyrants such as Saddam Hussein." With the U.S. they act in order to do good in the world. I am sure that Islamic leaders believe that they are acting to do good in the world. The question is do the actions of Islamic leaders benefit anyone? This which you posted gave me a much better understanding and acceptance of Muhammad. If what I read is true. I must still complete my study of the Qur'an. It is Muslims that need to know, understand, and accept these verses. Then it may be that we will be able to live in peace in the world. When I read these verses that you shared I can say; "So Muhammad did bring a good message", one that matches the Christian message. It is the Sunnah that creates difficulty. It seems to me then that Islam needs to do away with the Sunnah since apparently it only applied to a certain period of time in history. Thank you for this post. It is very helpful to understanding. |
Posted By: Bigmo
Date Posted: 31 July 2012 at 1:38pm
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The hadith you posted is not consistent with how the Quran understands justice. The Quran says: �O you who believe! Stand out firmly for justice, as witnesses to Allah, even
if it be against yourselves, your parents, and your relatives, or whether it is
against the rich or the poor...� (Quran 4:135) What the hadith did was made a compromise between the tribal form of justice (stick by your tribal brethren right or wrong) and the proper form of juctice by telling the Mulim you should never go against another Muslim but simply prevent him from doing wrog. That is not what the Koran said. The Koran said that justice sometimes require you to go against your relative and even yourself and not just try to prevent him from doing wrong. What happens if the other person refuses to listen? Then you can say well I tried. That ain't good enough. Another hadiths that violates the Quran.
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Posted By: honeto
Date Posted: 07 August 2012 at 12:53pm
Caringheart, I feel you have some ideas of your own and that's OK. Let me get this straight from you. In OT God said to obey me and I will give you eternal Paradise. If you disobey I will punish you in hell fire. In FT, the Quran, God said the same thing as above and we Muslims believe it that way. Are you saying that in NT, God says whether you obey me or not I will not punish you and grant you paradise because I love you? Hasan ------------- The friends of God will certainly have nothing to fear, nor will they be grieved. Al Quran 10:62 |
Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 07 August 2012 at 2:03pm
Oh no! Absolutely not. The new testament shows us that the way to come into obedience is through Love... the Love that God showed for us, which in turn creates great devotion in us, to Him. Who can not owe their life to One who gave His life for them? It is understanding this great sacrifice that causes us to want to be pleasing to God... to not hurt Him, which of course, in turn, saves us from hurting ourselves. It is our great thankfulness for the gift. Obedience to God protects us, but of course in our human frailty we tend to be blind to this fact. Obedience for obedience sake seems to us to have little reward. But obedience for Loves sake that is different. Obedience for Loves sake, that has great reward in our hearts, and as a result, in our lives. 13 Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends. 14 Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you. 15 Henceforth I call you not servants; for the servant knoweth not what his lord doeth: but I have called you friends; for all things that I have heard of my Father I have made known unto you. the words of Jesus. |
Posted By: honeto
Date Posted: 09 August 2012 at 2:33pm
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Caringheart,
so you are saying: 1- that as a Christian you are not obligated to obey God, if one do it it is out of love. Is that it? 2-..that God died? Hasan ------------- The friends of God will certainly have nothing to fear, nor will they be grieved. Al Quran 10:62 |
Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 09 August 2012 at 9:47pm
We are obligated to obey... We, all of us who wish to belong to God and His kingdom, will answer for any disobedience to His law on judgement day. God, through Jesus, said, "In My kingdom are many mansions". It's Love though that pulls the followers of Jesus into obedience. Love makes it easy. It's not for self that you do it. It's for love of Him and His sacrifice, His suffering, that you do it, and by proxy receive the benefit of that Love... by being obedient. "My yoke is easy, My burden is light" - The words of Jesus. It's like a circle... to quote the recent Olympian, Gabby Douglas... the glory goes up to Him and the blessings fall down on me. I honestly don't know what is meant to happen to the Hindu's, Buddhists, and other religions, who serve different gods. I only know the law for those of us who wish to belong to the one God. God can not die. The human form of God, in Jesus, died and rose again to heaven. It is what the people in Rome(who later called themselves Christians) saw, and what those who call themselves Christian today, see to be true. Others have other belief. I do not know what happens to them. I know what the religions say... but "do I have the mind of God" to know all? Maybe we are not all meant to go to this God, only those who choose Him. The Bible says that only those who are called by God will come. Sorry, I tend to get long winded. It is a complicated subject and one dear to my heart. I can not believe God will condemn all mankind. He saved Noah. He did not condemn all of Sodom and Gomorrah. According to the Bible, at Jesus second coming all will see the Truth and have a chance to amend their ways and come to Him. They will endure the tribulation time. |
Posted By: bunter
Date Posted: 10 August 2012 at 4:09pm
Just to join in. We are told as Christians to love God with all our hearts and mind and strength. If you love someone you will want to please them and in God's case that means avoiding sin and doing good works. There are of course laws but for a Christian there is more to it than that because we want to do God's will and seek out and follow his plan for our lives and you cannot find that written down anywhere. The mortal body of Jesus died just like our mortal bodies will eventually die so your question does not make entire sense unless of course you believe that when the mortal part dies nothing remains, that is the end for eternity? |
Posted By: honeto
Date Posted: 13 August 2012 at 2:42pm
Caringheart, you said, "we are obligated to obey". It is the same we believe, so nothing different. Rest of what you wrote on this matter seem only babble. I remember reading clearly in your Bible " if your hand commits a sin to cut it off, so your whole body won't be thrown into hell fire because of it". We believe same, so no difference then. On the issue of "God died?" you said: "The human form of God, in Jesus". So what you are saying is that Jesus was God in human form. I also remember a verse from your Bible that disprove that claim (this is Jesus' words, who you say was God in a human body): "I am going to my father and your father, to my God and your God". With this quote from your source, I just showed you that whom you thought and claimed to be God, in fact saying that he as a God. And that's not just a contradiction but a big offence to God. Also there is another problem, you just said that it was God in human body. But I remember you say before that he is actually son of God! I leave you with your problems to solve, I am thankful to God, that we don't have any such things in Islam. Hasan ------------- The friends of God will certainly have nothing to fear, nor will they be grieved. Al Quran 10:62 |
Posted By: honeto
Date Posted: 13 August 2012 at 2:50pm
So you are saying whatever pleases your heart becomes God's will, since you don't find laws written anywhere, or is it that you lost them? And you are saying that God has a body and soul like us? Hasan ------------- The friends of God will certainly have nothing to fear, nor will they be grieved. Al Quran 10:62 |
Posted By: bunter
Date Posted: 14 August 2012 at 2:55am
You must learn to read what people say. Nowhere did I say there were no laws anywhere. But what I did say was that you cannot lookup in any scripture what you are supposed to do with your life, your career, you marriage partner and so on, those have to be worked out through prayer and a longing to do God's will. So it's very far from doing what you like because as Christians we hand over our life to God in sacrifice and service. As to a body and soul my comments were about Jesus incarnate, God with us. Do you believe that there is more than just our bodies? One must also ask if you have a relationship with God, that God will speak directly to you and so know his plans for you, that you can know him? |
Posted By: honeto
Date Posted: 15 August 2012 at 1:12pm
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bunter,
there is nothing different for a Muslim, we also love God, and purpose of our lives is to please our maker: "It is not righteousness that ye turn your faces Towards east or West; but it is righteousness- to believe in Allah and the Last Day, and the Angels, and the Book, and the Messengers; to spend of your substance, out of love for Him, for your kin, for orphans, for the needy, for the wayfarer, for those who ask, and for the ransom of slaves; to be steadfast in prayer, and practice regular charity; to fulfil the contracts which ye have made; and to be firm and patient, in pain (or suffering) and adversity, and throughout all periods of panic. Such are the people of truth, the Allah fearing. " The Quran 2:177 Hasan ------------- The friends of God will certainly have nothing to fear, nor will they be grieved. Al Quran 10:62 |
Posted By: bunter
Date Posted: 15 August 2012 at 2:43pm
For Christians the driving force is that God loved us first, while we were yet sinners. The ideas are summed up in the following verses.� Titus 3:5 (AMP) "He saved us, not because of any works of righteousness that we had done, but because of His own pity and mercy, by [the] cleansing [bath] of the new birth (regeneration) and renewing of the Holy Spirit." Matthew 22:37-40�(AMP) "And He replied to him, You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind (intellect).�This is the great (most important, principal) and first commandment.�And a second is like it: You shall love your neighbor as [you do] yourself.�These two commandments sum up and upon them depend all the Law and the Prophets. Matthew 5:44�(AMP) "But I tell you, Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you" |
Posted By: honeto
Date Posted: 17 August 2012 at 8:36am
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Bunter,
for Muslims, it is the love and mercy of God, that he gave us the guidance, faculties and abilities to benefit from them. True believers accept that love and reply with love to God by fulfilling their duties. 4:69 (Y. Ali) All who obey Allah and the apostle are in the company of those on whom is the Grace of Allah,- of the prophets (who teach), the sincere (lovers of Truth), the witnesses (who testify), and the Righteous (who do good): Ah! what a beautiful fellowship! 28:86 (Y. Ali) And thou hadst not expected that the Book would be sent to thee except as a mercy from thy Lord: Therefore lend not thou support in any way to those who reject (allah's Message). 24:10 (Y. Ali) If it were not for allah's grace and mercy on you, and that Allah is Oft- Returning, full of Wisdom,- (Ye would be ruined indeed). 2:109 (Y. Ali) Quite a number of the People of the Book wish they could Turn you (people) back to infidelity after ye have believed, from selfish envy, after the Truth hath become Manifest unto them: But forgive and overlook, Till Allah accomplish His purpose; for Allah Hath power over all things. Hasan ------------- The friends of God will certainly have nothing to fear, nor will they be grieved. Al Quran 10:62 |
Posted By: bunter
Date Posted: 17 August 2012 at 9:42am
There is much here we might agree on regarding obedience. However, Christians would not ever think in terms of obeying God AND the apostle because that seems to equate the apostle with God and to Christians that sounds like blasphemy. I wonder if there is also a difference after reading these verses in they way we see God working. To quote: Romans 5:6-8 (AMP) 6�While we were yet in weakness [powerless to help ourselves], at the fitting time Christ died for (in behalf of) the ungodly. 7�Now it is an extraordinary thing for one to give his life even for an upright man, though perhaps for a noble and lovable and generous benefactor someone might even dare to die. 8�But God shows and clearly proves His [own] love for us by the fact that while we were still sinners, Christ (the Messiah, the Anointed One) died for us. So God loves us even though we are sinners, so our hope is not in our righteousness but that we are forgiven sinners to whom God imputed his righteousness through Jesus so there is nothing we can do to earn it for it is a free gift through faith. Having being given such a gift the very last thing we want to do is sin anymore. |
Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 17 August 2012 at 7:45pm
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@Bunter He just doesn't get it and you will find that you keep going around in the same circles.
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Posted By: bunter
Date Posted: 18 August 2012 at 10:10am
Perhaps you can explain what 'it' is then I might get it. What my posts are about is sharing what we believe, is that such a bad idea? |
Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 18 August 2012 at 9:55pm
Never mind. Enjoy yourself. Obviously I misunderstood something. |
Posted By: honeto
Date Posted: 22 August 2012 at 12:26pm
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bunter,
I see what you are unable to grasp. By obeying God and the prophet, you think Muslims are making God and the Prophet equal? You are just misunderstanding the whole thing. You can obey God and obey the Prophet without blasphemy. Here is how you do it: You take God as God, and the Prophet as the Prophet. If you are able to distinguish between the two and follow each as should be, there is no problem and fear of blasphemy. See the Muslims see and keep their prophet as a man chosen by God to be their teacher, a prophet. Muslims never think of their prophet as god, divine nor son of God. Christians on the other hand has taken their prophet, Jesus, a man, equal to God, a god, son of God and so on, thus crossing into open blasphemy. Hasan ------------- The friends of God will certainly have nothing to fear, nor will they be grieved. Al Quran 10:62 |
Posted By: bunter
Date Posted: 22 August 2012 at 1:05pm
So let me ask, can your prophet be wrong. Can I therfore ignore things he said and did since he was just a man of the ordinary kind. If you agree he can be ignored or said wrong things perhaps you would give examples? |
Posted By: honeto
Date Posted: 23 August 2012 at 3:10pm
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Bunter,
I just showed you on the subject, that you were wrong and I showed you how. I guess you admit that so you start another topic. If so, just start a new thread and I will address it. Hasan ------------- The friends of God will certainly have nothing to fear, nor will they be grieved. Al Quran 10:62 |
Posted By: bunter
Date Posted: 24 August 2012 at 4:47am
It was a simple question in my last post so hardly worthy of a new thread when all that was needed was a simple yes or no plus an example - though I understand your reluctance to answer. I cannot see in what way you showed I was wrong because I simply made a comment that linking a prophet and God as is common in Islam and it's prophet in terms of obedience is practically unknown in the Bible. |
Posted By: iec786
Date Posted: 26 August 2012 at 11:15am
Mark 12:28-34 28 Then one of the scribes came, and having heard them reasoning together, perceiving that He had answered them well, asked Him, "Which is the first commandment of all?" 29 Jesus answered him, "The first of all the commandments is: 'Hear, O Israel, the LORD our God, the LORD is one.Exodus 20 This was the commandment.nothing about love and all that nonsense. |
Posted By: nothing
Date Posted: 26 August 2012 at 2:19pm
If the Hadiths can be believed than yes he did make a mistake, at least in one hadith he admitted about a mistake he made. It was about planting, or harvesting, something to do with farming. Than also, once he decided to make certain food as haram, in which his decision was revoked almost right away. It is recorded in Chapter 66. O Prophet! why holdest thou to be forbidden that which Allah has made lawful to thee?, Thou seekest to please thy consorts? But Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful. (66:1) |
Posted By: bunter
Date Posted: 27 August 2012 at 7:18am
Interesting. How do you decide what to follow and what to ignore? |
Posted By: honeto
Date Posted: 27 August 2012 at 3:24pm
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bunter,
here is what you commented a couple of pages that I am trying to answer, while you keep buzzing other things. Here is what you said: "There is much here we might agree on regarding obedience. However, Christians would not ever think in terms of obeying God AND the apostle because that seems to equate the apostle with God and to Christians that sounds like blasphemy. " What I am trying to say is that a prophet is chosen by God to be our leader or a teacher, to guide us, to educate us about how to be good believers. We obey the prophet, because God communicated (sent scripture) and sent guidance through him, he teaches us who God is, and how to serve God better. Obviously you seem to not see the role of each one as different. Guidance comes from God, the prophet lives that guidance as an example, we copy his example and try to live it. What I see you refuse to let yourself understand is that God, there is only One. The Prophet (pbuh) and all the prophets (pbut) were chosen by God to be our guides, our teachers, and by accepting them as such and following their examples is not same as equating them to God. Rather making one of them as a God (like Christians did with Jesus)that is real blasphemy you oversee. Taking Jesus or Mohammed as prophets and teachers and following their examples is not blasphemy, taking them as gods is. The ten commandments of Moses (pbuh) were not actually Moses', God gave him those commands to teach to the people. Those who recognized Moses as God's prophet obeyed him as such and followed them to be true believers. Same with Noah, those who did not obey him as what he was, a warner and a prophet disbelieved and God dealt with them as such, destroying them. So, when we refuse a prophet of God, we refuse God, and we will suffer its consequences, simple as that. Can a prophet be wrong, sometimes may be, since they were also humans, but if God chose them to be His prophets and teachers on earth, I am sure they would be of a good example. Take Jesus (pbuh) for example, as a Muslim I have no doubt that he was perfect in behavior, but only God knows the absolute truth. The present day Bible shows Jesus to be not so consistent and hypocritical, and that's why I do not believe those verses to be true representation of Jesus. For example we hear a lot about love, but this goes against all that when Jesus don't find figs when he is hungry so he curses a poor tree, this is certainly not true of a beloved of God with so much faith,even an ordinary man would not do this, imagine a beloved of God is quoted to have said this (may God forgive): Mattew 21:18 Early in the morning, as Jesus was on his way back to the city, he was hungry. 19 Seeing a fig tree by the road, he went up to it but found nothing on it except leaves. Then he said to it, �May you never bear fruit again!� Immediately the tree withered. On one side he is quoted to respect and honor one's mother and father which I would expect from any teacher from God, while in the same Bible, he himself is disrespecting his own mother, how that can be: John 2:3 And when they wanted wine, the mother of Jesus saith unto him, They have no wine.4 Jesus saith unto her, Woman, what have I to do with thee? A well mannered man, let alone a prophet would never address his respectful mother like Virgin Mary (pbuh) in the manner the Bible verse does. This cannot be true of how Jesus spoke to his mother. Hasan ------------- The friends of God will certainly have nothing to fear, nor will they be grieved. Al Quran 10:62 |
Posted By: bunter
Date Posted: 29 August 2012 at 12:17pm
I understand what you believe and of course it is a matter for you. But all I pointed out was that Christians will ONLY say they obey God and Biblical prophets never point to themselves, they never say obey me but rather they say obey God. So they make if you like a distinction between their own words and actions and whatever revelation they may have received. Other than Jesus, there are sins listed agains virtually every Biblical prophet and so we do not follow their every action as if it was in some way a perfect example.
You words only make sense if Jesus is not God but there is abundant evidence from the Bible that he is divine. We can look at that evidence if you wish. Its an odd idea to refuse a prophet without first establishing his credentials. In Islam you claim for example Adam as a prophet but Biblically we have almost nothing recorded of what he said. Similarly, you mention other Biblical prophets, such as Jesus but if you look in the Quran you would be very hard pressed to construct more than a sentence to two of what he said
But what authority do you have to decide who God might use? Its not a question of being human, but of being sinners. So I know that God uses sinners because otherwise he would be hard pressed to find anyone. I don't know anywhere in the BIble where God says he is looking for good people to be prophets. David is one example who committed murder and adultery but he is also described as being 'after God's own heart' - now that might seem strange but David was aware of his sin and sought forgiveness and repentance.
But all you are really doing here is deciding what God can or cannot do. In the Quran there are hundreds of verses promising the worst imaginable suffering on unbelievers which no doubt you believe but then complain about treatment of a fig tree. I wonder who is being consistent here? You complain about the way Jesus refers to his mother and have decided it was bad. But I don't see it like that at all because we know how Jesus treated people from other verses. Here we see that there is more than just family connections, indeed there is a wider family. For example, some years ago we had an important wedding anniversary but none of our immediate family could come and some refused to come to the celebration so we had a small gathering in Church on our usual Wednesday communion meeting and then I realised what Jesus meant when he said 'these are my mother and sister and brothers.' You might understand this better if you thought about what you mean by Ummah. |
Posted By: honeto
Date Posted: 05 September 2012 at 3:24pm
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Bunter,
you are just mistaken on a very simple issue. God is God, a prophet is a prophet. A prophet is not God, and God is not a prophet. Of course prophets were teachers, you must listen to your teachers what they tell you. It is the same fact that was before in the OT times, those who were obeying to Moses or Noah or Lot were not making them gods but obeying them as prophets. You cannot distinguish that? Proverbs 5: 12 And say, How have I hated instruction, and my heart despised reproof; 13 And have not obeyed the voice of my teachers, nor inclined mine ear to them that instructed me! 14 I was almost in all evil in the midst of the congregation and assembly. 2:136 (Y. Ali) Say ye: "We believe in Allah, and the revelation given to us, and to Abraham, Isma'il, Isaac, Jacob, and the Tribes, and that given to Moses and Jesus, and that given to (all) prophets from their Lord: We make no difference between one and another of them: And we bow to Allah (in Islam)." As far as Jesus being divine, you gotta be kidding, we have seen more than enough evidence from the Bible that showed he has a God, that he was subject to someone. These two qualities are not qualities of the divine: God does not have a God, and God is under no ones command. Hasan ------------- The friends of God will certainly have nothing to fear, nor will they be grieved. Al Quran 10:62 |
Posted By: bunter
Date Posted: 06 September 2012 at 4:05am
You are NOT reading what I have been saying. That is the Quran continually says "Allah and his prophet" and that puts Mohammed on a level with God. It is a link between a prophet and God that as far as I know we never find in the Bible. As to the divinity of Jesus then I suggest you read the NT for yourself and find out the truth. Take the following verses as a starting point. Mark 14:61-63 (AMP) But He kept still and did not answer at all. Again the high priest asked Him, Are You the Christ (the Messiah, the Anointed One), the Son of the Blessed? And Jesus said, I Am; and you will [all] see the Son of Man seated at the right hand of Power (the Almighty) and coming on the clouds of heaven. Then the high priest tore his garments and said, What need have we for more witnesses? You have heard His blasphemy. What is your decision? And they all condemned Him as being guilty and deserving of death. Now this seems clear to me and evidently the Jews had no difficulty in understanding what Jesus was claiming here. |
Posted By: honeto
Date Posted: 12 September 2012 at 5:50pm
Bunter, I am not sure if you understand, what it means to obey the prophet and obey God. Prophets and apostles brought word of God that had to be obeyed. Prophets never claimed to be God, nor to be worshiped like God. So I am puzzled at your lack of differentiation of the two. You said: "Christians would not ever think in terms of obeying God AND the apostle" You sound like saying, if let us say prophet Moses saying to his people " your God is One God, and do not commit murder", any one obeying that command will be committing blasphemy? you are saying by following that command people will be equating Moses with God? That is so naive and I never thought of you that way. Muslims, through their prophet are told to not worship anything or anyone other than God. Prophet Mohammed(pbuh) was a living example of that command as all prophets were to live an example of what was preached through them, and thus not worshiping anything or anyone other than God by Muslims is following the example of their prophet. Where is blasphemy there, can you point out? Hasan ------------- The friends of God will certainly have nothing to fear, nor will they be grieved. Al Quran 10:62 |
Posted By: honeto
Date Posted: 12 September 2012 at 5:57pm
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Also you say their is nothing in Bible that say to obey apostles. Even though I understood what it is saying (following verse) but care to shed light on its message which basically goes against your argument that Christians are told not to obey their apostles (how silly):
John 15:20 Remember what I told you: �A servant is not greater than his master.� If they persecuted me, they will persecute you also. If they obeyed my teaching, they will obey yours also. Hasan ------------- The friends of God will certainly have nothing to fear, nor will they be grieved. Al Quran 10:62 |
Posted By: honeto
Date Posted: 12 September 2012 at 7:54pm
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And for the issue of Jesus' divinity, your quote you are assuming meant that he was claiming to be God, for that they wanted to kill him for blasphemy?
Suppose we assume you to be right, even though we know that you are not based on evidence. There are other problems in the Bible that will contradict that, for example there are at least two other accounts of the same event that give a complete different reason for the Jews to kill him for: "Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?" John 10:36 The third reason given in the Bible for which the Jews wanted to kill him is also part of the same story in the same Bible: "And set up over his head his accusation written, THIS IS JESUS THE KING OF THE JEWS." Matthew 27:37 So take your best guess! Also remember there is ample evidence we have seen in the Bible that suggests Jesus to be a servant of God and a prophet of God, I guess all that is meaningless when you want to see him as God. My favorite quote (to show to Christians) is: "but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God." John 20:17 I hope you don't ignore facts and truth that will save you one day. Hasan ------------- The friends of God will certainly have nothing to fear, nor will they be grieved. Al Quran 10:62 |
Posted By: Nausheen
Date Posted: 12 September 2012 at 9:17pm
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To Bunter:
Equating God with any man is blasphemy in Islam. - This means we DO NOT equate the prophet with God.
With regards to following Him - We follow the messenger because we believe whatever he has showed us a the 'way' is what God has intended us to be shown as the 'way'
The Quran says something like ' we have sent down a book and a messenger' God does not seperate His command from the messenger. We beleive that the messenger is the walking example of how God's command is to be followed - this is why we follow the messenger.
The Quran also says that the messenger does not command from himself - meaning that whatever dos and donts we have been told through the messenger are exactly those which God has intended.
You've asked if the messenger could make a mistake - and the answer is yes. Yes, he made mistakes in his choices and revelation were sent down to correct him - these revelations are included in the quran. Its indeed a topic which if you persue in a new thread you can get detailed responses.
How do we decide what to take from the messenger and what to ignore?
The quran says, take what the messenger commands you to take and leave what he commands you to leave. Its like Quran is the Divine Word and the messenger's voice is the means of making the Divine WOrds reach mankind.
Since Islam was completed in stages in a span of 23 years, there have been changes in laws during these years. There are abrogations and corrections (if you may), all brought to the final shape within the lifetime of the messenger.
We choose to ignore the laws which have been abrogated during those 23 years.
Hope this helps a bit.
------------- <font color=purple>Wanu nazzilu minal Qurani ma huwa Shafaa un wa rahmatun lil mo'mineena wa la yaziduzzalimeena illa khasara.[/COLOR] |
Posted By: bunter
Date Posted: 13 September 2012 at 4:28am
THe distinction is that Biblical prophets said the equivalent of "This is the word of the Lord..' so they are not pointing to themselves as any authority. Also we do not follow every action or word of a prophet, so we have nothing remotely like the Sunnah so we have no living examples we only have the teachings of God. Logically, actions are often culturally defined or set in a context and therefore if we are to repeat that example everything should logically be the same but clearly that is never ever the case. |
Posted By: bunter
Date Posted: 13 September 2012 at 4:41am
Christians are enjoined to listen to and hand over their lives to God. When we stand before God he is not going to say why are you not like Moses, or Jeremiah or whoever, he is going to say why are you not like Bunter or Hasan - we are everyone of us different and for each of us God has a plan and that is what we must seek and follow. Now the verse is interesting because it is part of the last few teachings imparted before the Jesus died and if we look at the context its about loving one another and persecution. It follows I think that we cannot interpret this verse as meaning we can invent our own teachings which must be obeyed. Rather, as V21 implies, the persecution will come because the disciples would pass on the teachings of Jesus. |
Posted By: bunter
Date Posted: 13 September 2012 at 4:50am
Also remember there is ample evidence we have seen in the Bible that suggests Jesus to be a servant of God and a prophet of God, I guess all that is meaningless when you want to see him as God. My favorite quote (to show to Christians) is:"but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God." John 20:17 I hope you don't ignore facts and truth that will save you one day. Hasan[/QUOTE] Some points, you do not seem to make any distinction between what Jesus said about himself and what others said. For example, you take as evidence the fact that Pilate, the Roman governor, placed a sign on the cross about Jesus being King of the Jews - does that really amount to evidence of substance as to whether Jesus is God or not? So I wonder are you simply bringing you personal bias to the Gospel accounts and imposing them on the text, any text so long as it backs up you predisposed position? |
Posted By: Ron Webb
Date Posted: 13 September 2012 at 5:37pm
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Just as we are puzzled by your lack of differentiation. You obey Muhammad, just as you would obey Allah. You treat every authentic word and action of Muhammad as permanent doctrine, just as you do with Allah. You consider it sacrilege to insult Muhammad, just as you would Allah. You attribute to Muhammad qualities of wisdom, virtue, stamina, etc., which if not equal to Allah are certainly beyond those of mortals. So aside from simply declaring that Muhammad is not a partner of Allah, in what practical sense do you believe or behave any differently than if he were?
The blasphemy is in writing down the Hadith of the prophet, despite having been specifically told not to do so, and in treating those sayings as if they had the same authority as Allah's words in the Quran. The Hadith were specific guidance for a specific people and a specific time. They were never meant to be preserved forever. ------------- Addeenul �Aql � Religion is intellect. |
Posted By: Ron Webb
Date Posted: 13 September 2012 at 5:45pm
Or it could mean that most Muslims are committing blasphemy.
I presume you are referring to the hadiths, not the Quran (else how could Allah's words ever be changed or abrogated?). Then how many more changes might be expected over 1400 years? Wouldn't it be reasonable to assume that most of the hadith ought to have been abrogated by now? ------------- Addeenul �Aql � Religion is intellect. |
Posted By: Nausheen
Date Posted: 14 September 2012 at 12:30am
There are two things being mixed by you and others -
1. Muhammad (sallallahu alaihe wassalam) and
2. The message which he conveyed.
If muslims believe in the message he brought and treat ts as the word of God this does not mean Muhammad (saw) = God.
This only means the message he conveyed is from God, not from himself.
The message here means the Quran, down to every letter.
Now the question arises (which I regard as a genuine one from the non-muslims) why the hadith are treated with so much regard.
The sunnah are held in extreme high regard, but the hadith (documentation of the sunnah) are not equal to the Quran, ie they are not the exact words of God all the time.
The reason for following the hadith are many. The nature of every hadith is different, thus the reason for it being followed is different.
eg. there is a sunnah way of drinking water. Now, if we do not drink water in the sunnah way all the time, does not mean we have gone astray from religion. This only means one who drinks water the sunnah way, gets the reward of drinking water at the same time he is quenching his thirst.
Following the sunnah is a means of earning the God pleasure of the creator, and a means of growing near to Him, because the sunnah ways the the ways of the one who is most beloved to Him.
There are other hadith which explain the verses of the quran - the companions used to ask Muhammad (saw) about the verses, and his explanations are not believed to be from himself alone, ie he did not explain without true knowledge of God's intent in the verses - thus whatever expositions he has given, we treat them as coming from the knowledge of God to Muhammad (saw) to mankind.
Other hadith detail the proper protocol for obligatory worship (the exact protocol for 5 obligatory prayers is not detailed in the Quran) - again this is not from Muhammad (saw) in the sense of him being just a teacher, rather it is from Muhammad (Saw) conveying the intention of God.
And like this there are several hadith of varied nature, all of which are not the scope of this post.
What he brought from God is treated as comming from God , via him, and not as something originating from him, in the same way as laws and instructions originate from God.
Muhammad's (saw) message is not like that of a press reporter who conveys to us the incident 'in his own way' His message is like that of a God appointed messenger, which had he not conveyed exactly the way it was supposed to be, he would have been corrected and reprimanded by the Authority who appointed him for this job.
So, when muslim treat the message he conveyed, as that from God they are NOT calling him God.
I was very much referring to the Quran. Quran has abrogations - which means God did change His word.
When God can change Divine laws from Moses to Muhammad (saw), they why can he not change them within the 23 years of making those laws for the people of Muhammad (saw).
------------- <font color=purple>Wanu nazzilu minal Qurani ma huwa Shafaa un wa rahmatun lil mo'mineena wa la yaziduzzalimeena illa khasara.[/COLOR] |
Posted By: Ron Webb
Date Posted: 14 September 2012 at 8:46am
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As I'm sure you know, the Quran says in many places that it is complete, perfect and fully detailed. If it doesn't mention precisely how to drink water or how to pray, then according to Allah it doesn't matter exactly how you drink water or how you pray. If Muhammad said otherwise, then Muhammad was giving instruction to his companions and followers in his own time and place. Those instructions were never intended to be preserved for all time, i.e. never intended as a permanent part of Islam.
Honestly, Nausheen, do you think Allah ran out of words, or forgot to include things in the Quran? Or was He lying when He said the Quran was complete? ------------- Addeenul �Aql � Religion is intellect. |
Posted By: honeto
Date Posted: 17 September 2012 at 11:48am
Some points, you do not seem to make any distinction between what Jesus said about himself and what others said. For example, you take as evidence the fact that Pilate, the Roman governor, placed a sign on the cross about Jesus being King of the Jews - does that really amount to evidence of substance as to whether Jesus is God or not? So I wonder are you simply bringing you personal bias to the Gospel accounts and imposing them on the text, any text so long as it backs up you predisposed position?[/QUOTE] Bunter, you missed the point. For putting that quote up it was meant to show those of you who take another such quotes to assume that he was God. The quote where he was being killed because the charge was that he blasphemed against God by claiming to be God. Hasan ------------- The friends of God will certainly have nothing to fear, nor will they be grieved. Al Quran 10:62 |
Posted By: honeto
Date Posted: 17 September 2012 at 12:48pm
Ron, the Quran and the Prophet has separate roles in my understanding. The Quran is complete and the role of the Prophet is to explain, live, and to put the words of the Quran in practice. It is often said that the Prophet (pbuh) was a living Quran. Ron, if you have been to school, you must remember that it was your teacher who opened up those lessons or maths equations that did not make any sense to you at first. Once the teacher explained to you the formula or gave you that added information it all made sense and became easy to follow through. The prophet was not just the messenger but also a teacher. When it is said to offer your Salat five times of day, Quran is not incomplete to not draw the specifics rather that was the job of the teacher, the prophet who was instructed to how to do it and then teach how it is done properly. Thus the prophet lived and explained each aspect of life that was important. You never questioned, why do you need or have to listen to the Chemistry teacher or Maths teacher to explain to you those text books? Prophet Mohammed (pbuh) came as the last prophet to mankind and through him came the Quran as the last message for mankind that means that the Quran and his example is valid until the world ends. Hasan ------------- The friends of God will certainly have nothing to fear, nor will they be grieved. Al Quran 10:62 |
Posted By: honeto
Date Posted: 17 September 2012 at 1:18pm
Ron, sorry to say but you are absolutely wrong about those perceptions about me. You blame that I obey Prophet Mohammed (pbuh) as I obey God Almighty. Wrong, I do not. I obey God Almighty as God Almighty and I obey prophet Mohammed (pbuh) as prophet Mohammed (pbuh). And I obey my mother as my mother. So there is a distinction. I do not equate the words of the Quran as the words of the Hadith. The Quran is directly from God Almighty, while the Hadiths are words of men and must be verified. I love God Almighty as God Almighty, and I love the Prophet as the Prophet. I certainly believe that it was for his great qualities that Mohammed (pbuh) was chosen to be a teacher, to be a guide, to be a prophet to mankind. Is he equal to God, no Muslim will commit such blasphemy, there is none that equals God. Do I respect and love him more than any other human, you bet, followed by all the other prophets and then my love ones. Hasan ------------- The friends of God will certainly have nothing to fear, nor will they be grieved. Al Quran 10:62 |
Posted By: Ron Webb
Date Posted: 17 September 2012 at 5:46pm
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When I was in elementary school, by teacher taught me an excellent way to multiply two numbers, using a pencil-and-paper technique called long multiplication. But she never claimed it was the only way, or even necessarily the best way. Indeed, the ancient Egyptians used a technique now called http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Egyptian_multiplication - duplation and mediation , which was an excellent method for those who only rarely need to multiply large numbers and don't want to memorize multiplication tables. Later in high school, I was taught another excellent method using logarithmic tables, for times when speed was more important than accuracy. Then along came the calculator, and then the computer, both of which have obvious advantages. I thank my teacher for teaching me long multiplication, which served its purpose for many years; but I'm sure she would be horrified to think that I continued to use that technique fifty years later, simply out of a misguided respect for her. If Muhammad had done multiplication, most likely he would have used duplation and mediation. Think about it.
If the specifics are essential to Islam, and they are omitted from the Quran, then the Quran is not a complete statement of Islam. Why is that so hard for you to accept that God doesn't care about trivial details? Frankly, I think Allah would be bored to stupefaction by now with the same prayers mindlessly repeated over and over and over again for a thousand years. Why not give Him a break?
I didn't. In fact I was way ahead of my math teacher for much of the high school curriculum (yeah, I was one of those
Does it say that in the Quran, or did you make that up? ------------- Addeenul �Aql � Religion is intellect. |
), and I learned most of it just by reading the text. But if necessary I could have had my parents explain it, or one of my friends, or found something in the library. My teachers were (mostly) good, but they weren't the only sources of explanation.Posted By: Ron Webb
Date Posted: 17 September 2012 at 5:53pm
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Saying it does not make it so. In practical terms, what is the distinction? The only clear difference I can see is that Muslims normally don't directly address Muhammad in their prayers, but it seems that http://www.islamicity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=23892 - even that isn't always the case. ------------- Addeenul �Aql � Religion is intellect. |
Posted By: bunter
Date Posted: 18 September 2012 at 1:46pm
But the Quran does not say does it 'obey Allah and your mother'? |
Posted By: honeto
Date Posted: 19 September 2012 at 11:22am
bunter, your argument is silly, losing and unreal. In various levels we all obey various entities. As law abiding citizens we obey the law of our countries and it protects us. We obey our parents and elders. Don't tell me that you never obeyed your mother or your father. It is natural, Allah tells us in the Quran that only time we should not obey them is if they ask us to worship anyone other than God. 31:15 (Y. Ali) "But if they (your parents) strive to make thee join in worship with Me things of which thou hast no knowledge, obey them not; yet bear them company in this life with justice (and consideration), and follow the way of those who turn to me (in love): in the end the return of you all is to Me, and I will tell you the truth (and meaning) of all that ye did." And it seems that you missed this verse in your own book that you believe to be true, at least believe it. It talks about obeying to your parents and just look at the punishment in it for disobeying: Deut.21:18 "If someone has a stubborn and rebellious son who does not obey his father and mother and will not listen to them when they discipline him, 19 his father and mother shall take hold of him and bring him to the elders at the gate of his town. 20 They shall say to the elders, �This son of ours is stubborn and rebellious. He will not obey us. He is a glutton and a drunkard.� 21 Then all the men of his town are to stone him to death. You must purge the evil from among you. All Israel will hear of it and be afraid." And Ron, I am not going to argue with you on such a simple matter as role of a teacher. Teachers would not be needed if we all could learn only from the books alone. Everyone in sound mind will not think of learning without teachers. In today's economy may be it's a good idea to eliminate teachers but only good for the economy and not for the future. Teachers play an important role in a student's learning ability and that was my simple point. In matter of religion it matters even more because religion is more important to many of us then what we learn in school. And see, for a man of belief like myself, I never feel over burdened like you when it comes to find the details of how our teacher, our prophet did certain things that are part of daily life. How did he fulfill his obligations to his maker and how did he fulfill his obligations toward others, simple as that. As in any trade, people follow an example of someone who once was a legend in that field, as a Muslim my only goal is to follow that example that was a guiding light and a living example of how a true believer should be. And for each time there was such an example and a teacher like Jesus, like Moses, like Abraham and so on, all servants of Allah. For our times it is Prophet Mohammed may Allah's Peace be upon them All. Hasan ------------- The friends of God will certainly have nothing to fear, nor will they be grieved. Al Quran 10:62 |
Posted By: Ron Webb
Date Posted: 19 September 2012 at 8:26pm
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I agree Hasan, teachers are very helpful, and no doubt Muhammad was an excellent teacher in his lifetime. However, as I keep reminding Muslims, Muhammad (peace be upon him) is dead. He can no longer be our teacher. He can no longer answer questions or apply the Quran to our particular situation, which is what all good teachers do, and what sets them apart from the lifeless content of a textbook.
The hadith and sunnah are just words frozen on a page -- the functional equivalent of a second Quran. But there can only be one Quran. It is complete, and Allah left nothing out of it. He said so. ------------- Addeenul �Aql � Religion is intellect. |
Posted By: iec786
Date Posted: 19 September 2012 at 11:21pm
The Quran has refrained from using the word Father or Mother or Son.If you look at the abuse of these words in the Bible where you have Mary construed as the Mother of God(sic) then you have Jesus as the Son of God(sic) then you have God as the father all these words have been done away with in the Quran. |
Posted By: iec786
Date Posted: 19 September 2012 at 11:23pm
So we should throw all the books in the toilet because all are dead.Re write all books and while we at it we should get a new God as well because he has expired.st**id statement man. |