Family Matter - Is a working woman to pay for anything in marriage

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Is a working woman to pay for anything in marriage

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Topic: Is a working woman to pay for anything in marriage

Posted By: Munnim
Subject: Is a working woman to pay for anything in marriage
Date Posted: 19 June 2012 at 6:26am

Salamaleykum brothers and sisters.

I'm looking for guidance on the finances of marriage, I hope one or more of you can explain with some reliable and sourceable answers.

I work and my wife works. Each of our earnings are good hamdulillah. My wide has a good cushion in savings from before we got married as well, and I had none. Initially, we had talked about paying for living expenses both of us. But my wife now gives looks for me to take care of all expenses, as she grew up with that thought, she says. I had said she should put aside her savings from before and everything we made after getting married, would be our money. She then changed her mind to having it 50/50, which got me upset as I see that very reminiscent to dating. Anyway, now it is expected that I take it all on. I agreed, and the knowledge I had about it islamically and what I can find online does not take the situation into consideration. The man is responsible for taking care of his wife, his family, and the household. That is the easy to find knowledge. Now as she is working, she can keep her earnings to herself and spend on anything she likes. That is also established. But as she is making a good living, am I responsible for paying for her car expenses, which she needs to get to and from work? And do I have to provide pocket money for going to cinema or cafe with friends or buy things unnecessary, such as clothes and electronics? I took it that the money she earns namely is to go for those things 'anything she likes' and that in her not consulting with me whether she can, I am to pay for her to get there and back. As Islam is the most fair religion of all, how could these questions be yes? How can she put a huge nestegg together, when I paying everything double, will just about make ends meet? That must conclusively lead to an unhealthy power slide. Can I pay for all bills and shopping expenses and fulfill my duty?

Another question is about housing. We now live in my wife's house. I moved to the country that she lives in, so as to make life easier for her, in that I didn't have to get a new job, working at sea, whereas she would. I moved into her house and have payed towards it, but she is asking for me providing a house now. In that I have saved very little in the 8 months weve been married, can she make any claims in the type or size of house I can offer?

She has let me know that Muslim wives are not required to do any housework, that if the man want it done, he is responsible for getting done, which all sources confirm. Now what can I demand in return from my wife, with regards to fulfilling islamic duties? She is to obey my final decision it goes, but if she can not be asked to do any work in the house, then what is there to decide?

I will appreciate any contribution towards these issues and that they can help other Muslim couples in the clinch of the text and western living.

Sincerely
Muslim brother

Replies:

Posted By: Pati
Date Posted: 22 June 2012 at 3:04pm

Hi,

I think you married a queen!!! You have to give her house, pay the expenses, cook, clean... she is so lucky!!! By the way, are you looking for a second wife? In case yes, just call me Wink

(I AM KIDDING, Spanish humour).

Seriously, she has a work, she has money, she has a house... so just try to arrive to an agreement point. It's not fair to work and keep all the money for her, because you are married and you should share everything, but it's fair that everyone can keep part of the money for their own needs.

It's not fair to play a game without risking anything, she should collaborate on the couple and this is starting by the basic needs: house, food, cleaning, and all daily needs that a normal person can have.

Try to talk to her in nice way and tell her that this should be between both of you, because this will be the life plan of both, not only yours.

I think she is little selfish, and she should understand that even if she can keep her life as independent woman, there is no way to make a marriage work just asking for things, without giving anything. You should complete each other, not be face to face.

Good luck, and I hope you will not understand me wrong Embarrassed

Kind regards

-------------
No God wants the killing, but the peace.
The weapons are carried by people, not by religions.

Posted By: abuayisha
Date Posted: 22 June 2012 at 4:05pm

Be kind and generous to your wife within your ability. Enjoy her and stop stressing out over money. She is under no obligation to spend on you, and be glad she is saving money, because women usually outlive men and should this be the case, she will have income and not be forced to beg from others. Clean the house yourself and you'll likely find she will help out, but she is under no obligation to clean simply because she is female. If you can afford car expenses, a new home and anything else that will make her happy - spend and Allah will reward you with more. Enjoy her and do not let money separate you from her. No fun living alone my friend.

Posted By: Munnim
Date Posted: 22 June 2012 at 11:28pm

Thank for the advice Pati and abuayisha. And it is welcome, but I'm looking for answers about how it should be islamically and if I am asked to honor the financial rights of the woman to the letter, what am I entitled to ask for, financially, bearing in mind that she does work.

Posted By: Munnim
Date Posted: 23 June 2012 at 2:39am

And Pati, running 1 wife is cleaning me out, can not imagine taking care of more. Respect to those who handle that :)

Posted By: abuayisha
Date Posted: 23 June 2012 at 9:03am

It is your Islamic duty to support and maintain your wife completely. She, even if rich beyond our dreams, does not have to contribute anything. You can ask for whatever you want, but it is not your right to receive anything. If she agrees to spend it is from her kindness only and not her duty. Duty and obligation, both belong to you. Her money is for her and she is under no compulsion islamically to give you anything. She knows her rights, which is great!

Posted By: Pati
Date Posted: 24 June 2012 at 5:14am

I will just add something to my last words: the Prophet PBUH, he married a rich woman, Khadiya, who gave him everything until becoming poor.

Is there anything more islamic than this example?

The selfish is not made for the marriage. To get married is the same than this ecuation:

1 + 1 = 1

It should be like this, you should not keep secrets, thinkings (well, only some of thems), problems, money or properties from your other half.

Good luck and I hope you will find your Islamic counseil.

Kind regards,
Patricia

-------------
No God wants the killing, but the peace.
The weapons are carried by people, not by religions.

Posted By: Munnim
Date Posted: 24 June 2012 at 10:28am

Dear Abuayisha, with rights come responsibility. I am looking for information to balance out the equation. I know it is not as clear cut as you put it. For one ayah 4:33 contradicts it. If we both stand back and claim our rights, it will be an unproductive standoff. Men And women should abstain from that. That would be great.

Posted By: Chrysalis
Date Posted: 24 June 2012 at 4:37pm

It seems to me that you are kind of frustrated with your situation, and want to know how you can get back at her with ''your rights'' and her ''responsibilities''. That can't be good for your relationship. Do you have an otherwise good relationship with your wife?

I can tell you as a woman, that women respect men with chivalry. A man who wants his wife to chip in financially, or one that stews over the fact that she is making more money than me - is not being very chivalrous. I can tell you that if you let this matter go, and stop expecting financial contribution from your wife, she will have more respect for you. When she has more respect for you, you will find it easy to fulfill the role of the 'man of the house''. If she loves you and respects you, she will automatically want to do things for you.

Before I got married, I was very adamant about ''housework is not my responsibility''. Alhamdulilah my husband also agrees with that, and does not expect me to wait on him. Due to his chivalry, I find I want to do things for him. This is not something you can enforce on your spouse. She should be doing it out of love and respect for you. Practice being a bit more chivalrous and generous (financially) around your wife for a month. See if it effects her behavior towards you.

Yes, Islam is fair.. which is why it makes sure that the woman is taken care of. Women cannot have as successful and smooth careers as men due to eventual pregnancies, kids etc. If she was wise enough to save up now, that is good. She may need to help out her relatives, spend on her kids in the future etc. This is how Allah intended for women to be financially secure. All good husbands want their wives to be taken care of. Their main concern is their wife and kids' welfare in-case something happens to them...

You both could set out a budget so she does not overspend (although chivalrous men overlook that now and then lol. Unless its crazy spending).
Look on the brighter side, if she didn't have her own money, she would be even more financially dependent on you and you would be chipping in more.

With regards to house (and any spending) your financial responsibilities are based on what you can afford (islamically). So if she wants a house that you cannot afford, you are under no obligation to go under debt for her. The husband is supposed to provide within his means.

I also suggest you communicate your feelings to your wife. Talk about it... and its better to forget about the money she has saved up, or what she earns. Tell her you feel its unfair etc and talk it out. Hear what she has to say.

-------------
"O Lord, forgive me, my parents and Muslims in the Hereafter. O Lord, show mercy on them as they showed mercy to me when I was young."

Posted By: Chrysalis
Date Posted: 24 June 2012 at 4:58pm

Also, I want to add that your situation is not very different from most muslim households in terms of the man's contribution. The only difference in your case is that your wife is actually financially secure. In most muslim households, the woman usually is not earning. So if you ignore your wife's paycheck - you are doing what the average muslim man does anyway! The average muslim man spends on his wife, pays for her clothing, shelter, amusement, shopping sprees AND house-help. In the west - where paid househelp is expensive, many muslim husbands help out with chores. In the east, where labour is cheap, the average muslim household has maids, drivers, cleaners etc.

Then there are those muslim husbands who are God-fearing and generous
who go beyond their islamic responsibilities of the wife and end up financially helping the wife's relatives too.

Leaving your wife's paycheck out of the equation, wouldn't you have been doing all this anyway? Most muslim husbands do.

However I do feel bad that you feel things are unfair. Are you a born-muslim? Or a convert? I would strongly advise you do something about your apprehensions because 8 months into the marriage, you both shouldn't be worrying about financial responsibilities, its not a very healthy foundation. You both need to sit down and work all this out now.

-------------
"O Lord, forgive me, my parents and Muslims in the Hereafter. O Lord, show mercy on them as they showed mercy to me when I was young."

Posted By: Munnim
Date Posted: 24 June 2012 at 7:43pm

Dear Chrysalis, yes there is frustration. And I have always let her know that what I have is hers. But we did agree initially that she should keep her prior savings to herself but what we earned after was our money. So without being in need of my chivalry, she then tells me I should be providing for everything, even if she doubts that I could! I am not a convert. Born Muslim. I have issue with being the provider monetarily if my wife needs it, is not working and keeps the house. Now if I do most of the housework already, then she is not being fair and when I offer to pay for all bills and grocery, she tells me to study more Islam, I.e. there is nothing I 'get away with not paying for'. I thought it was chivalrous of me to offer that to please her, but then it's like she wants the whole arm when hand is extended. So now I'm trying to find out if I am obliged to Pay for her car and cinema expenses.

Posted By: Pati
Date Posted: 26 June 2012 at 2:50pm

Dear Munnim,

It's too much difficult to receive a satisfactory answer from this forum, because everyone has different point of view.

I would just suggest you to ask your wife to come with you to the mosque, and talk with the Imam or any old man who can give good advise. I think this would be the only way to make peace between you both.

Actually, I think you should not wait to ask for help from a third person, who is not from your circle. Maybe, there is something in her mind that you are not aware about, I don't know, and you are getting crazy from something you ignore.

Try to convince her to go to the Mosque and ask for help, I know lot of couples who did and it works.

Good luck again
Patricia

-------------
No God wants the killing, but the peace.
The weapons are carried by people, not by religions.

Posted By: Munnim
Date Posted: 26 June 2012 at 4:08pm

Thank you very much Patricia. That was the first objective answer from someone who didn't know any of the answers to my questions. And the mosque thing is always on my mind. Just trying get wiser on the subject in the meantime. Because I think this woman's rights thing has got distorted in the process of trying to show the west how much Islam cares for its women. Especially the issue of a working woman.

Posted By: Chrysalis
Date Posted: 27 June 2012 at 6:56pm

Munnim wrote:

Dear Chrysalis, yes there is frustration. And I have always let her know that what I have is hers. But we did agree initially that she should keep her prior savings to herself but what we earned after was our money. So without being in need of my chivalry, she then tells me I should be providing for everything, even if she doubts that I could! I am not a convert. Born Muslim. I have issue with being the provider monetarily if my wife needs it, is not working and keeps the house. Now if I do most of the housework already, then she is not being fair and when I offer to pay for all bills and grocery, she tells me to study more Islam, I.e. there is nothing I 'get away with not paying for'. I thought it was chivalrous of me to offer that to please her, but then it's like she wants the whole arm when hand is extended. So now I'm trying to find out if I am obliged to Pay for her car and cinema expenses.

I understand that non-muslims would have a different approach towards this issue... when it comes to Muslim households, the man needs to step up to the task of being the 'Ameer'... and this is how things go in most muslim households unless the wife agrees/wants to contribute to household finances. (in your case she doesn't. we can't force her can we?).

I agree with Patti, its definitely a good idea to consult an Imam or Scholar so you will be more at ease, since he will probably get to hear both sides of the story from you and your wife.

The reason why we can't really answer your question is because only a scholar would now how to define the financial needs of today. Would entertainment be part of modern-day necessities? Transport does seem like a necessity today.

-------------
"O Lord, forgive me, my parents and Muslims in the Hereafter. O Lord, show mercy on them as they showed mercy to me when I was young."

Posted By: Nausheen
Date Posted: 27 June 2012 at 10:11pm

Tho I truly sympathise with your situation I dont think any of the opinions given to you were wrong islamically.

You are looking for an islamic way out of making your wife share in the household expenses because she is a working woman - does not work that way in Islam my dear friend/brother! Yes, if you want to become a westernized muslim, sure compromise the islamic sharia - provided she is willing to take part in that arrangement.

There is one aspect I read in your situation - perhaps the frustratin part on you is not just because she is not sharing the financial burden but due to her going beyond your means [a spendthrift wife?]. If that is the case you can discuss with her. Tell her what you can afford and what you cannot.

Islamically she has a right to earn. Right to keep all her money to herself and right to spend it the way she pleases. You cannot do much about it.

However you have a right to control how the money you earn is spent in the household. Since you are the husband, the Ameer of the family, she cannot spend your money in whichever way she pleases. You must provide for her within your means, however you can be honest and open about your real means with her - talk to her, discuss with her, tell her how you would like to run the home - that is your islamic right :)

A wife is not allowed to even give away her husband's money in charity without his consent - or he gets the reward of charity and she gets the sin of disobedience - perhaps Islam is fair enough :)

As for house work, do what you can and leave the rest pending ... her feminine nature would perhaps prompt her to pitch in and give a hand in washing dishes, doing the laundry etc if you are not able to complete all of it on top of your own job.

Good luck brother!

PS: if and only if, you are brave enough to do this - hand out all your salary to her every month and ask her to run the financial affairs for both of you - that would include everything she so much demands from you. That way she will know where to spend and where to cut. Also she will feel secure.

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Wanu nazzilu minal Qurani ma huwa

Shafaa un wa rahmatun lil mo'mineena

wa la yaziduzzalimeena illa khasara.[/COLOR]

Posted By: Munnim
Date Posted: 28 June 2012 at 8:22pm

Dear Nausheen,
You are also only saying what is popular belief. And having a situation where the man becomes limited in his choices for himself and his family because of the financial burden that is expected of him to carry and popular perception dictates, whereas the woman can over-power him with her continuous increase of equity, does not reflect on what we know to true of the spirit of Islam. And what you say also gets contradicted in that my wife can not control how I spend the money on the household, because if I say no, then she can get it anyway. This disturbs everything we know about men and women. And men are not working donkeys, men are also highly regarded in the eyes of Allah. Read this verse 4:32, it says 'men shall have the benefit of what they earn and women shall have the benefit of what they earn'.
If the world was as you suggest no poor man could or should get married and no man with reasonable money would then marry any woman with any means, as it is not human nature to be wanting to give to those who have more than oneself and wishes to give nothing back. So what you say cannot be the whole truth. Although many preache it all the time. My wife and her friends joke with 'your money is my money, and my money is my money'. Men are not donkeys. And if women carry this narrative forward, I foresee it wil carry conditions to times when women were held down. And as I have shown you, at least one place in the Quran, says that what any of you say is conclusive.

Posted By: Nausheen
Date Posted: 02 July 2012 at 9:23pm

Munnim wrote:

Dear Nausheen,
You are also only saying what is popular belief. And having a situation where the man becomes limited in his choices for himself and his family because of the financial burden that is expected of him to carry and popular perception dictates, whereas the woman can over-power him with her continuous increase of equity, does not reflect on what we know to true of the spirit of Islam. And what you say also gets contradicted in that my wife can not control how I spend the money on the household, because if I say no, then she can get it anyway. This disturbs everything we know about men and women. And men are not working donkeys, men are also highly regarded in the eyes of Allah. Read this verse 4:32, it says 'men shall have the benefit of what they earn and women shall have the benefit of what they earn'.
If the world was as you suggest no poor man could or should get married and no man with reasonable money would then marry any woman with any means, as it is not human nature to be wanting to give to those who have more than oneself and wishes to give nothing back. So what you say cannot be the whole truth. Although many preache it all the time. My wife and her friends joke with 'your money is my money, and my money is my money'. Men are not donkeys. And if women carry this narrative forward, I foresee it wil carry conditions to times when women were held down. And as I have shown you, at least one place in the Quran, says that what any of you say is conclusive.

ouch!!

-------------
Wanu nazzilu minal Qurani ma huwa

Shafaa un wa rahmatun lil mo'mineena

wa la yaziduzzalimeena illa khasara.[/COLOR]

Posted By: Nausheen
Date Posted: 02 July 2012 at 10:44pm

Dear Munnim,

I have another solution for you. Islamic, and fool proof. Perhaps the best one you can find in the given situation...

Quit your job and become poor.

Now you will be entitled for Zakat.

Since your wife is a rich lady, she should be paying zakat. Ask her to give her zakat money to you.

Use this money to run the house.

In this way you will make your wife run the house with her money

-------------
Wanu nazzilu minal Qurani ma huwa

Shafaa un wa rahmatun lil mo'mineena

wa la yaziduzzalimeena illa khasara.[/COLOR]

Posted By: Munnim
Date Posted: 02 July 2012 at 11:14pm

Wow Nausheen, exactly something my wife could have said. I will do my own study and find answers, because 'my money is my money and your money is my money' doesn't suit any logical idea or religion. That is taking one argument to an extreme and disregarding the other. Can call it being selfish even.

Posted By: Nausheen
Date Posted: 03 July 2012 at 10:36pm

Really? Are you saying that she would not have any problem feeding you, clothing you and sheltering you if you were a needy person? How could such a person be selfish?

You've got a problem with her being rich and not having to take care of her needs in presence of your income. If this is the case, you do have a serious problem.

If she did not have a job would you not be maintaining her? If you wont have a problem in that case, I don't understand why you don't want to readily do the same when she does have her own income. Islamically in your eyes her income should be non-existent to you.

If someone offered a hand in marriage to me and said he would like me to contribute to the household expenses, I would reject his offer ... to me the very idea is out-right unislamic and thus non gallant.

However if he was willing to take full responsibility and said he is going to spend 1/3rd of his monthly salary and save 2/3rd for something in future - I wouldn't have had a right to object with that.

This was what I tried to explain to you in my first post.

If you set limits on how much money is spent per month, your wife must obey ... she does not have too much say there. It is your right to run the house as per your financial plans.

For instance, you don't have to maintain her car, if its beyond your means, or beyond your financial plans. You can tell her you can pay for a public transport only. If she still wants to keep a car, she can, and maintain it herself.

If your royal wife is being extravagant with your money you have a right to put a check on that.

Your money is your money. Your wife cannot spend it out without your permission. However she has a right to be maintained by you. maintainence does not mean you've got to spend every penny every month.

However what appears from your posts is that your only problem is her pay cheque being accumulated in bank, while yours being spent on groceries, bills and mortgage. And you ask why this is not possible islamically. Basically you are questioning the law of Allah.

-------------
Wanu nazzilu minal Qurani ma huwa

Shafaa un wa rahmatun lil mo'mineena

wa la yaziduzzalimeena illa khasara.[/COLOR]

Posted By: Chrysalis
Date Posted: 04 July 2012 at 4:41am

Your money is your money. Your wife cannot spend it out without your permission.

Unless he is being stingy. If a husband is miserly or stingy, the woman may take enough money to run household without husband's knowledge. She will not be sinned. (Hadith of Hinda and Abu Sufyan)

I have also heard the women may spend out of the husband's wealth for charity, and he shall get a reward for it.

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"O Lord, forgive me, my parents and Muslims in the Hereafter. O Lord, show mercy on them as they showed mercy to me when I was young."

Posted By: Chrysalis
Date Posted: 04 July 2012 at 4:42am

Munnim wrote:

Wow Nausheen, exactly something my wife could have said. I will do my own study and find answers, because 'my money is my money and your money is my money' doesn't suit any logical idea or religion. That is taking one argument to an extreme and disregarding the other. Can call it being selfish even.

I think I'm starting to understand why your wife is so possessive about her money.

-------------
"O Lord, forgive me, my parents and Muslims in the Hereafter. O Lord, show mercy on them as they showed mercy to me when I was young."

Posted By: Nausheen
Date Posted: 04 July 2012 at 9:17pm

Chrysalis wrote:

[

I have also heard the women may spend out of the husband's wealth for charity, and he shall get a reward for it.

Partly true.

Partly, because he gets the reward in the given case - true, but at the same time she gets the blame of giving it away without his permission.

be careful! :)

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Wanu nazzilu minal Qurani ma huwa

Shafaa un wa rahmatun lil mo'mineena

wa la yaziduzzalimeena illa khasara.[/COLOR]

Posted By: Nausheen
Date Posted: 04 July 2012 at 9:19pm

Chrysalis wrote:

[Quote]

Unless he is being stingy. If a husband is miserly or stingy, the woman may take enough money to run household without husband's knowledge. She will not be sinned. (Hadith of Hinda and Abu Sufyan)

Would you please searcheable reference for this hadith.

Jazak Allahu khair.

-------------
Wanu nazzilu minal Qurani ma huwa

Shafaa un wa rahmatun lil mo'mineena

wa la yaziduzzalimeena illa khasara.[/COLOR]

Posted By: abuayisha
Date Posted: 04 July 2012 at 11:18pm

http://www.gowister.com/sahihbukhari-7-272.html - http://www.gowister.com/sahihbukhari-7-272.html

http://zikrequran.blogspot.com/2011/06/bukhari-vol-7-no-272.html - http://zikrequran.blogspot.com/2011/06/bukhari-vol-7-no-272.html

Posted By: Nausheen
Date Posted: 05 July 2012 at 7:40am

abuayisha wrote:

http://www.gowister.com/sahihbukhari-7-272.html -

Posted By: Chrysalis
Date Posted: 05 July 2012 at 8:11pm

Nausheen wrote:

Chrysalis wrote:

[Quote]

Unless he is being stingy. If a husband is miserly or stingy, the woman may take enough money to run household without husband's knowledge. She will not be sinned. (Hadith of Hinda and Abu Sufyan)

Would you please searcheable reference for this hadith.

Jazak Allahu khair.

Hind (bint 'Utba) said to the Prophet, "Abu Sufyan is a miserly man and I need to take some money of his wealth." The Prophet (saaws) said, "Take reasonably what is sufficient for you and your children." [Bukhari 9.291, Narrated 'Aisha]

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"O Lord, forgive me, my parents and Muslims in the Hereafter. O Lord, show mercy on them as they showed mercy to me when I was young."

Posted By: Chrysalis
Date Posted: 05 July 2012 at 8:21pm

While looking up hadith for Nausheen. I came across relevant texts that address the topic of post.

Men are the protectors and maintainers of women, because All�h has made one of them to excel the other, and because they spend (to support them) from their means. ... (Qur'an 4:34)

I remember reading somewhere that a scholar (or person?) was commenting that the role of Ameer of the house is earned and deserved, not a born right. If the husband fulfills his responsibilities as a leader (maintaining the family) then he deserves to be treated as leader. But if a man fails to fufill his obligations, the wife is not required to follow his lead. (unless his shortcomings have a genuine reason).

Advise to husbands by Prophet Muhammad (s.a.w):

..That you should feed them as you feed yourselves, clothe them as you clothe yourselves [Ahmed/sahih]

And the man is responsible for his household and will be asked about his responsibility [Bukhari]

Allah's Messenger (saaws) said, "The generous man is near Allah, near Paradise, near men and far from Hell, but the miserly man is far from Allah, far from Paradise, far from men and near Hell. Indeed, an ignorant man who is generous is dearer to Allah than a worshipper who is miserly." [Tirmidhi 1869, Narrated Abu Huraira]

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"O Lord, forgive me, my parents and Muslims in the Hereafter. O Lord, show mercy on them as they showed mercy to me when I was young."

Posted By: Munnim
Date Posted: 07 July 2012 at 11:25pm

Yes if we look at a puristic approach, then yes it's true, I am the provider of my wifes well being and her needs and our common household expenses. As I stated initially, this is not the issue. Because puristicly, I can object to her working, because many of her collegues are men. I can decide what the money goes to and have her ask for every dollar. I can even beat her up, if she is out of control. Those are my rights. I am asking for the more complex issue. As she/we like to maintain our current lifestyle, even enhance it (by buying a house dobble the cost of current one) then it is beyond what I can provide. And even if I propose renting, because I don't wish to commit to paying interest and she objects to that, then what is a boy to do? And as she is asking for more than what she needs and what I can provide and she has means to realize those wishes, is she then still entitled to ask/expect it of me in leu of our setup not completely reflecting the classic Islamic couple referred to in the Quran and the Hadiths? This is why I am asking, not because I am stingy. The paths that have been discussed are all problematic and I don't wish to have to beat my wife because rights become a principle.

Posted By: Chrysalis
Date Posted: 09 July 2012 at 2:50pm

Because puristicly, I can object to her working, because many of her collegues are men.

You can't object to her working based on the fact that her colleagues are men. Unless you yourself work in a male-only environment and never interact with the opposite gender yourself.

I can decide what the money goes to and have her ask for every dollar.

Lol! No you can't.

You can't ask her for a single dollar. Nor can you tell her how or where to spend it. You only have a say over the money you earn.

I can even beat her up, if she is out of control.

Yeah, and she can slap a lawsuit on you.. and sue you for damages.

Even in an Islamic State, if the husband steps out of line and decides to beat up his wife, she can take him to court or divorce him.

Its funny how you think Islam gives you the right to beat her up, but you have no clue about the responsibilities Islam puts on you. Classic!

I am asking for the more complex issue. As she/we like to maintain our current lifestyle, even enhance it (by buying a house dobble the cost of current one) then it is beyond what I can provide.

Well, then be a man and talk to her logically. Tell her you can't afford one. Fullstop. She can't make you buy a house double-the-cost on gunpoint. There is nothing in Islam that asks you to go beyond your means.

And even if I propose renting, because I don't wish to commit to paying interest and she objects to that, then what is a boy to do?

Put your foot down. If you can't afford it.. you can't afford it. You need to focus on the issue at hand with her and tell her clearly what the problem is... don't bring in her money and her job into the discussion. If you feel you can't handle it, talk to her parents then.

And as she is asking for more than what she needs and what I can provide and she has means to realize those wishes, is she then still entitled to ask/expect it of me in leu of our setup not completely reflecting the classic Islamic couple referred to in the Quran and the Hadiths?

Yes, she is still entitled to her financial rights from you. Your inability to communicate your financial limits to her should not effect your other financial responsibilities.

What do you think is the ''classic islamic couple referred to in Quran and Hadith''? From what you have told us, you seem to be the one that has a problem with the way things were set out by Quran and Sunnah.

This is why I am asking, not because I am stingy. The paths that have been discussed are all problematic and I don't wish to have to beat my wife because rights become a principle.

Are you for real? Wife-beating is not your right! For someone who is portraying himself as very modern and educated - deep down you have major insecurities.

Before you married your wife, were you thinking that her bank balance would be at your disposal? Were there any confusions about the bread-winner and man-woman responsibilities? You married an independent, working woman... but now that she is displaying the traits you married her for, you have a problem with it.

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"O Lord, forgive me, my parents and Muslims in the Hereafter. O Lord, show mercy on them as they showed mercy to me when I was young."

Posted By: abuayisha
Date Posted: 09 July 2012 at 2:50pm

Munnim, judging from the way you have described your wife I'm sure there isn't any concern about you beating her up - she knows her rights, and beating her up is not one of them. To take your argument to its logical conclusion, why pray five times a day? You may have to make hajj and become sick from all the people gathered together. As a matter of fact, why even ask your question on an Islamic discussion board? Isn't it too problematic?

Posted By: Munnim
Date Posted: 09 July 2012 at 7:20pm

4:34 (Asad) MEN SHALL take full care of women with the bounties which God has bestowed more abundantly on the former than on the latter, Asad(4,42) ^{javascript:var%20winNote=window.open%28shownote.asp?chap=4&note=42,winNote,width=500,height=500,resizable=1,scrollbars=1%29 - [42]} and with what they may spend out of their possessions. And the righteous women are the truly devout ones, who guard the intimacy which God has [ordained to be] guarded. Asad(4,43) ^{javascript:var%20winNote=window.open%28shownote.asp?chap=4&note=43,winNote,width=500,height=500,resizable=1,scrollbars=1%29 - [43]} And as for those women whose ill-will Asad(4,44) ^{javascript:var%20winNote=window.open%28shownote.asp?chap=4&note=44,winNote,width=500,height=500,resizable=1,scrollbars=1%29 - [44]} you have reason to fear, admonish them [first]; then leave them alone in bed; then beat them; Asad(4,45) ^{javascript:var%20winNote=window.open%28shownote.asp?chap=4&note=45,winNote,width=500,height=500,resizable=1,scrollbars=1%29 - [45]} and if thereupon they pay you heed, do not seek to harm them. Behold, God is indeed most high, great!

Posted By: Munnim
Date Posted: 09 July 2012 at 7:26pm

4:32 (Asad) Hence, do not covet the bounties which God has bestowed more abundantly on some of you than on others. Men shall have a benefit from what they earn, and women shall have a benefit from what they earn. Ask, therefore, God [to give you] out of His bounty: behold, God has indeed full knowledge of everything.

Posted By: Munnim
Date Posted: 09 July 2012 at 8:07pm

Because puristicly, I can object to her working, because many of her collegues are men.

You can't object to her working based on the fact that her colleagues are men. Unless you yourself work in a male-only environment and never interact with the opposite gender yourself.

- I do work with males only. I dont interact with females. I dont know where you got that from, but even by your definition, I sure can.

I can decide what the money goes to and have her ask for every dollar.

Lol! No you can't.

You can't ask her for a single dollar. Nor can you tell her how or where to spend it. You only have a say over the money you earn.

- I was talking about the money I earn I you say I should be the sole provider with, regardsless of her earnings. Meant to say "ask her to account for every dollar (which she spends of money I provide)

I can even beat her up, if she is out of control.

- Its funny how you skip to western system when Islam doesnt suit your argument. I cited from the Quran 2 post before this, but will write it here again. Your shouldnt deny the quran.

4:34""And as for those women whose ill-will Asad(4,44) ^{javascript:var%20winNote=window.open%28shownote.asp?chap=4&note=44,winNote,width=500,height=500,resizable=1,scrollbars=1%29 - [44]} you have reason to fear, admonish them [first]; then leave them alone in bed; then beat them;"

I am asking for the more complex issue. As she/we like to maintain our current lifestyle, even enhance it (by buying a house dobble the cost of current one) then it is beyond what I can provide.

- I tried talking to her logically, as I tried talking to your logically, but I am giving up on your as well.

And even if I propose renting, because I don't wish to commit to paying interest and she objects to that, then what is a boy to do?

- I will put my foot down. Was looking for a good way of showing the right way to go about it, but since it doesnt work with her, or with you, I will have to say how its going to be.

I dont have a problem with the things in the Quran and Hadiths, I would prefer to live puristacally, but married a western, educated, working woman who dated and everything before me. One that wants the best of Islam and none of the hard bits. Just like you. I am willing to commit both (not only the burdens), but when only asked to by a cash cow and get nothing in return is a bit hard to bear.

This is why I am asking, not because I am stingy. The paths that have been discussed are all problematic and I don't wish to have to beat my wife because rights become a principle.

No, I dont know if you are well educated, but you do not know how to deecifre a simple sentence. I dont have any intention of beating my wife. Although I have a right to do so. I proved it to you by the source of our scripture, which you cant deny. And I clearly state that beating is something I have not considered or do consider. But one has to remember the right of the other as well, when starting go extreme on claiming theirs. If will want all you can get with pointing at Islam, you must be ready to deliver what you are said to deliver. Start praying and covering for one. Be a supportive and understanding wife.

If you go around with an attitude and pledge to live like Sarah Jessica Parker, then dont get started on your islamic rights. Rights come after duties.

Posted By: lady
Date Posted: 10 July 2012 at 5:54am

Assalaamoalaikum Munnim. Are you playing games here?

Posted By: Munnim
Date Posted: 10 July 2012 at 7:10am

W'aleykumassalam lady. Whatever do you mean? What games? Either way, I am not playing any games. I was looking for answers on an issue which muslims of today face, but got a lesson on women's rights. From women. If I had got something on the obligations of women as well, this wouldn't be as frustrating as it is. Anyway I have debated this other issue which I was dragged into and proven my points on it. I was wrong in putting my concern here though, but couldn't have known that because in the past I have received very good perspective from users of islamicity. But this time I only got defensive and one-sided discussion. So will use my own sense and knowledge to go about this problem, which I have. Until I find a person who knows enough to contribute to what I ask. But would like to hear which part seems like a game to you?

Posted By: abuayisha
Date Posted: 10 July 2012 at 7:44am

daraba - the Arabic word has several meanings and none indicate 'beat her up' - unless of course you would like her to retaliate and beat you up.

Surah 42.41-42: �If any help or defend themselves (ie act in self-defence) after some wrong done to them, they are not held to blame for that. The blame lies only with those who oppress in wrongdoing, and insolently transgress beyond bounds, defying right and justice; there will be a serious penalty for them.�

The Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) enjoined kind treatment and honoring of one�s wife, and he described the best of people as those who are best to their wives. He said: �The best of you are those who are the best to their wives, and I am the best of you to my wives.� Narrated by al-Tirmidhi, 3895; Ibn Maajah, 1977; classed as saheeh by al-Albaani in Saheeh al-Tirmidhi.

The Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) spoke beautiful word concerning kind treatment of one�s wife, stating that when the husband feeds his wife and puts a morsel of food in her mouth, he earns the reward of doing an act of charity. He said, �You never spend anything but you will be rewarded for it, even the morsel of food that you lift to your wife�s mouth.� Narrated by al-Bukhaari, 6352

'Could any of you beat his wife as he would beat a slave, and then lie with her in the evening? (Bukhari & Muslim) Our Prophet and Messenger never hit a woman. He (pbuh)is our example and guide. This is not a religion of spousal abuse (beat her up).

The Messenger of Allah send to all mankind on his last address delivered on the ninth of Dhul Hijjah in the valley of Mount Arafat, said (concerning women) after praising, and thanking Allah: ' O people, lend me an attentive ear, for I know not whether after this year, I shall ever be amongst you again. Therefore listen to what I am saying to you very carefully and take these words to those who could not be present here today.'

'O people, it is true that you have certain rights with regard to your women, but they also have rights over you. Remember that you have taken them as your wives only under Allah's trust and with His permission. If they abide by your right then to them belongs the right to be fed and clothed in kindness. Do treat your women well and be kind to them for they are your partners and committed helpers.'

Posted By: Chrysalis
Date Posted: 10 July 2012 at 9:30pm

Munnim wrote:

4:34 (Asad) the MEN SHALL take full care of women with the bounties which God has bestowed more abundantly on former than on the latter, Asad(4,42) ^{javascript:var%20winNote=window.open%28shownote.asp?chap=4&note=42,winNote,width=500,height=500,resizable=1,scrollbars=1%29 - - [42]} and with what they may spend out of their possessions. And the right�eous women are the truly devout ones, who guard the intimacy which God has [ordained to be] guar�ded. Asad(4,43)

Selective much?

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"O Lord, forgive me, my parents and Muslims in the Hereafter. O Lord, show mercy on them as they showed mercy to me when I was young."

Posted By: Chrysalis
Date Posted: 10 July 2012 at 9:58pm

Munnim wrote:

So go ahead and do that. Make a budget, keep a financial record... nothing wrong with that.

- Its funny how you skip to western system when Islam doesnt suit your argument. I cited from the Quran 2 post before this, but will write it here again. Your shouldnt deny the quran.

4:34""And as for those women whose ill-will Asad(4,44) ^{javascript:var%20winNote=window.open%28shownote.asp?chap=4&note=44,winNote,width=500,height=500,resizable=1,scrollbars=1%29 - - [44]} you have reason to fear, admonish them [first]; then leave them alone in bed; then beat them;"

Nobody is denying the Qur�n.
It would be a good idea to open a tafsir and ask a Scholar for the interpretation. So before you stock up on miswaaks (toothbrush) for a possible beating, do look the reasons up. Normal marital discords in a household do not make grounds for a beating.

Even in the Islamic System, the woman has full right to approach the court and take her husband to court if she finds him harmful. That includes a beating. Nothing in Islam says a woman has to put up with an abusive husband.

Start praying and covering for one. Be a supportive and understanding wife.

If you go around with an attitude and pledge to live like Sarah Jessica Parker, then dont get started on your islamic rights. Rights come after duties.

Exactly, rights come after duties... that applies to you too. I heard a scholar say that in a marriage the spouses should focus on carrying out their responsibilities and not look at just gaining their rights. What happens nowadays is, people focus a lot on their rights and not on their responsibilities.

Also, even if she doesn't cover or pray, you still have to do your part. Did you not know what she was like before you married her? If her praying and covering did not effect your decision to marry her, then it should also not effect your financial dynamics.

PS: You have input from male members in this thread too. Also, since we are having this discussion with you - a man - it doesn't make sense to talk about your wife's actions. You do not control your wife's actions, only yours so it would not be very helpful to have a list of things your wife should be doing...

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"O Lord, forgive me, my parents and Muslims in the Hereafter. O Lord, show mercy on them as they showed mercy to me when I was young."

Posted By: Nausheen
Date Posted: 11 July 2012 at 1:57am

Munnim wrote:

Because puristicly, I can object to her working, because many of her collegues are men.

I can decide what the money goes to and have her ask for every dollar.

Lol! No you can't.

You can't ask her for a single dollar. Nor can you tell her how or where to spend it. You only have a say over the money you earn.

I can even beat her up, if she is out of control.

- Its funny how you skip to western system when Islam doesnt suit your argument. I cited from the Quran 2 post before this, but will write it here again. Your shouldnt deny the quran.

I am asking for the more complex issue. As she/we like to maintain our current lifestyle, even enhance it (by buying a house dobble the cost of current one) then it is beyond what I can provide.

- I tried talking to her logically, as I tried talking to your logically, but I am giving up on your as well.

And even if I propose renting, because I don't wish to commit to paying interest and she objects to that, then what is a boy to do?

- I will put my foot down. Was looking for a good way of showing the right way to go about it, but since it doesnt work with her, or with you, I will have to say how its going to be.

This is why I am asking, not because I am stingy. The paths that have been discussed are all problematic and I don't wish to have to beat my wife because rights become a principle.

If you go around with an attitude and pledge to live like Sarah Jessica Parker, then dont get started on your islamic rights. Rights come after duties.

Goodness gracious!

Have not read a more confusing post lately.

Who said what - do we need to read entire 3 pages of this thread to figure that out?

Just one comment on this entire tirade - the quranic instructions of 'beating' per se become a man's right only and only if the wife is unchaste.

Is your wife disloyal to you? If not, please try to know the tafsir of the verses you have quoted.

Also if anyone accuses anybody on the subject of chastity, he must produce 4 witnesses. Between a husband and wife, they do not need to, however Allah knows if they truthful or not - so this is a very serious matter.

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Wanu nazzilu minal Qurani ma huwa

Shafaa un wa rahmatun lil mo'mineena

wa la yaziduzzalimeena illa khasara.[/COLOR]

Posted By: lady
Date Posted: 11 July 2012 at 2:57am

As a muslim, they have given you so many examples from the quran and sunnah for your concerns. But you continue to troll this topic again and again. Because you are looking for someone to tell you that your way is the best way and you refuse to see the islamic way. So that is why I was thinking that you are teasing muslims and our beliefs. Islamically, when so many examples are given to a person, and that person refuses to see the TRUTH especially as a muslim, then we must not entertain them much with their insincere questions.

I wish the best for you and your wife

Lady

Posted By: Munnim
Date Posted: 11 July 2012 at 10:28am

First of all, I am writing from my phone, which causes typos and at times disorganised messages when they stretch in length. But not more so than anyone can understand each point if they will.
Next: dear Lady. Sounds like you are excluding me from your religion? Can you really not tell that I am Muslim? And you say they (Abuayisha and Chrysalis) have given me many examples from Quran and Hadith but I refuse to acknowledge the truth. If you read my first post, I already acknowledged those same points, so I am not disputing them. I am looking for answers that deal with the issue I have, because it does not reflect the situation I am in. So it is actually you who don't address my question, but cling on to what I say is established knowledge. So all this discussion is without bringing anything new to the table. I have asked for answers specifically on women working, and no one who has had a say, knows it, as they have gone reverse every time. And only thing that stands are passages that contradict each other as both I and them have tried to passify arguments. And you all have got the idea that I would beat up my wife because I didn't like what Islam says. Which is absurd and sign of you not listening. And even disputing that the Quran says it, and Abuayisha translating differently that the most established Quran translators. It is then not me who denies 'our religion'

Posted By: abuayisha
Date Posted: 13 July 2012 at 7:37am

Munnim wrote:

I can even beat her up, if she is out of control. Those are my rights. The paths that have been discussed are all problematic and I don't wish to have to beat my wife because rights become a principle.

'If A Muslim man is displeased with some bad quality in his wife;, then let him be pleased with another quality which is good. '

The verse you cited in the Quran does not give permission for domestic violence. Muslims are not to "beat up" women, children or anyone else. A Muslim is the one from whose hands and tongue other Muslims are safe.

Posted By: Munnim
Date Posted: 13 July 2012 at 9:58am

That is what the Quran says. It's not all roses. "I don't have to cook, I don't have to clean, you can hire help if you want it done, I don't have to pay anything, you are the provider. I can work in Islam and what I earn is completely in my disposal, it doesn't mean beat ( although most regarded translators say it does). What is that? What man can live with that?? Now you all think about whether you only select what suits you. Whether you are reflecting the wives of Mohammad S.A.W. before you expect your men to be prophets.

Posted By: Nausheen
Date Posted: 15 July 2012 at 5:38am

I know a woman is a man's responsibility in Islam. I also know that a woman can earn money and keep it to herself.

I know that she does not have to work at home if her husbad can afford for domestic help.

I also know that islamically she is not obliged to contribute to the daily expenditure.

Now I m asking you all is there a wiggle room out of this so I can make my wife work at home, and pay bills from her salary.

Im not saying I deny she does not have to do this, but am asking is there an islamic way in which I can make her do what i want because I am finding it hard to live by those islamic rules which are so much in her favor and against my pocket and my bank balance !

Im just asking this and now you guys tell me you reject me as a muslim!

You guys know nothing about islam, showing me ayat, I already know (but do not want to pay heed to) which do not suit my situation, and then tell me Im wrong?

phew!!

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Wanu nazzilu minal Qurani ma huwa

Shafaa un wa rahmatun lil mo'mineena

wa la yaziduzzalimeena illa khasara.[/COLOR]

Posted By: Nausheen
Date Posted: 15 July 2012 at 5:42am

Dear Munnim,

Do you love your wife?

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Wanu nazzilu minal Qurani ma huwa

Shafaa un wa rahmatun lil mo'mineena

wa la yaziduzzalimeena illa khasara.[/COLOR]

Posted By: Chrysalis
Date Posted: 15 July 2012 at 4:07pm

Nausheen wrote:

I know a woman is a man's responsibility in Islam. I also know that a woman can earn money and keep it to herself.

I know that she does not have to work at home if her husbad can afford for domestic help.

I also know that islamically she is not obliged to contribute to the daily expenditure.

Now I m asking you all is there a wiggle room out of this so I can make my wife work at home, and pay bills from her salary.

Im just asking this and now you guys tell me you reject me as a muslim!

You guys know nothing about islam, showing me ayat, I already know (but do not want to pay heed to) which do not suit my situation, and then tell me Im wrong?

phew!!

:)

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"O Lord, forgive me, my parents and Muslims in the Hereafter. O Lord, show mercy on them as they showed mercy to me when I was young."

Posted By: Chrysalis
Date Posted: 15 July 2012 at 4:12pm

Munnim wrote:

That is what the Quran says. It's not all roses. "I don't have to cook, I don't have to clean, you can hire help if you want it done, I don't have to pay anything, you are the provider. I can work in Islam and what I earn is completely in my disposal, it doesn't mean beat ( although most regarded translators say it does). What is that? What man can live with that??

80-90% of all Muslim males ?

At least those who know what ''being a man'' is all about.

A lot of non-muslims like to tell muslims how muslim women are oppressed and men have an upper hand, I would love to direct them to this thread! Most women would agree that if their husbands were fulfilling thier responsibilities and understoood the above paragraph - they would have no issues with their husband being the Ameer or Leader of the house. Privileges in Islam come with responsibilities.

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"O Lord, forgive me, my parents and Muslims in the Hereafter. O Lord, show mercy on them as they showed mercy to me when I was young."

Posted By: lady
Date Posted: 17 July 2012 at 4:37am

Assalaamoalaikum Nausheen. I wanted to respond to your last comment two days ago but I have been really busy with working. Anyway, I am disappointed in you. You should know that when you quote someone you should make sure that you give them credit for it.

Now this is what you left out:

quotation-> "I know a woman is a man's responsibility in Islam. I also know that a woman can earn money and keep it to herself.

I know that she does not have to work at home if her husbad can afford for domestic help.

I also know that islamically she is not obliged to contribute to the daily expenditure.

Now I m asking you all is there a wiggle room out of this so I can make my wife work at home, and pay bills from her salary.

Im just asking this and now you guys tell me you reject me as a muslim!

You guys know nothing about islam, showing me ayat, I already know (but do not want to pay heed to) which do not suit my situation, and then tell me Im wrong? "<- quotation

written by Munnim

High five to the sisters. Munnim why you hide your hand? Oh, we see it now. Wow, I like your red Manure. I really like how you added the diamonds to your pinky finger nail. Are you going to take the nail polish off your nails soon, because Ramadan will be here soon. But I am curious, do you mind telling me who is your Mannicurist?

Wait, should I trust him to give me the name of his Manicurist? Or do you think that he will mislead me like he tried to mislead people on this forum?

Ok, Ok, sisters let's leave tseris (<- unscramble) MunnimA alone.

Posted By: Nausheen
Date Posted: 19 July 2012 at 9:31pm

lady wrote:

Okay dear, I stand corrected!

It is perhaps one of the very few threads I've followed this far. not sure where's the maganet behind it.

Hope to disengage in Ramadan.

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Wanu nazzilu minal Qurani ma huwa

Shafaa un wa rahmatun lil mo'mineena

wa la yaziduzzalimeena illa khasara.[/COLOR]

Posted By: sislam93
Date Posted: 12 July 2014 at 8:54am

A woman doesn't have to pay for anything but if I was with a woman who was not paying for anything and was making decent money then I WILL NOT LET HER WORK (UNLESS SHE WAS MAKING LOW MONEY OR THAT MONEY WAS TO HELP HER PARENTS OR SIBLINGS). Its pathetic and childish how women don't want to compromise their rights on working but at the same time want men to compromise their right on having a full time housewife. It is really sad. (by the way IF A WOMAN HELPED ME I WILL OBVIOUSLY HELP HER IN THE HOUSE).