'It was a lie'

The guy may not be credible... BUT why did the advocates of "democracy" and "freedom of speech" walk out mid-way through the speech? Nature's call?

Bismillah

My "may not be credible" statement leaves plenty of room for credibility to be established therefore it does not completely deny what he says.Now before it is established it would reflect some decency if "freedom preachers" would have at listened to the end if not giving him benefit of doubt.

B: Now let's see what you're suggesting.  Comparing the US, UK, Poland, Italy and Australia, which all rule by the will of the people and under the auspices of internal and international law (including the UN charter and mandates) et al to terrorists, by which we know among others we mean Saddam Hussein and Osama bin Laden, Zarqawi the child killer, et al is POTENTIALLY LEGITIMATE TO YOU MOCKBA?!  We should just be clear about what you're saying..

Mahathir would receive decency if he would give it, which he clearly did not, calling those assembled there terrorists no different from any of the pariahs aforementioned.  You should talk to all those prisoners he held without charges and those innocents that he held against their wills simply to maintain his power before you're so quick to defend him, so quick to impugn those countries that walked out on his not only illegitimate but personally duplicitous statements and prevarications.   If not for common decency, given first, why else would you demand they listen to Mahathir?!

Now, it may be that you agree with Mahathir, the corrupt former Malaysian leader, that to remove a 2 million over mass murderer and the pariah regime of the Taliban was 'as evil' as the heinous psychopaths and psychopathic crimes themselves.  But you're not really saying that - are you?

If these "freedom preachers" seem to enjoy and further propagate fabrications and lies like that of WMD's in Iraq and Saddam's involvement in 9/11... then i conclude that what they don't like to hear - is truth.

B: So whatever is convenient to your ultimate goal of tweaking it in the eye of the US, and others, stands, in your mind, as truth?  Interesting definition of truth, that.  By the way - was Saddam a threat to regional and world peace, at all, even if he didn't have all the WMD capabilities that he let onto having up through March/April 2003?  Would you rather he be in power?  Would you rather he be implementing his acid baths for many, many more and shooting more babies through the head? 

http://www.massgraves.info/

Bismillah

b95000

I began to spot Zarqawi's name frequenting mass media quite some time after US invaded Iraq. Those days Bush was chasing Bin Ladens... and armadillos.

Zarqawi was probably still in his mother's womb while "the freedom preachers" including the likes of their puppet-Saddam were stomping innocent people without sparing children.

Wasn't it Rumsfeld "holding towels" whilst in Iraq during those "acid bath" years you mentioned?

B: OK, I'm not sure what song and dance Rumsfeld did while in Iraq in the 80s but it was one of those difficult situations that influential countries find themselves in - Iran having taken hostages and violated all kinds international laws, etc.  The propping up of Saddam - if you will was done, by the way, not only by the US, but France, Germay, Russian et al, and at a time when the spector of terrorism and mass murder of innocents was not nearly as prevelant.  Now, that said, who do you think is to blame for the Iran/Iraq war in the 80s?

Though i am not a wild supporter of Mahathir, I do not recall him being called to answer for Guantanamo Bay atrocities...

B: Do you know what he's done?  Again, holding internal prisoners without cause nor charges should clue us off...furthermore, please be specific about Gitmo charges...or are you going to give no evidence like Sasha?

not to mention the legality of holding foreign nationals under unwritten law in a third country.

B: Hmm...how legal was it for a para-national group to declare war on a sovereign country?  I'd say we've entered a brave new world thanks to the psychotic Osama who fashions himself to be some kind of Muslim hero.  I find it odd, to say the least, that none of your concern lies on that side of the matter.  What would you suggest we do about these things MOCKBA?  Nothing?  Not an option..

Your claim that the countries you mentioned rule by the will of the people, is not insulting to me... but the very people who live in those countries.

B: Are you saying that that does not matter? Of course it matters as a part of the context - not matter what you say to the contrary to try to dissuade without the force of fact..

Save your definitions of truth, civilization and people-power for the dead in New Orleans... nobody suspected al-Qaeda this time... perhaps because it was Mahathir? 

B: I see you like to make your points on the backs of suffering human beings...that's really quite despicable and shows an ugly side of you that really is not nice to see..I would suggest you check in with your parents about the wisdom or lack thereof in such rude comments about others during their times of suffering..

Please - do you know what anthrax, sarin and nuclear bombs can do?  Imaginary threat - are you crazy?

I absolutely agree with you... There is indeed no imaginary threat. Bush and gang have made it clear to the world in a number of statements that nuclear attack is still possible and they may take such option... they have also refused to abolish development of chemical weapons...

B: You're being absurd - is it accomplishing anything?  Does rogue vs. rule of law have any effect on your compare and contrast technique?  Has the US been held to task by 16 Section 7 UN SCRs?  Try again MOCKBA.

===================

B: Do you know what he's done?  Again, holding internal prisoners without cause nor charges should clue us off...furthermore, please be specific about Gitmo charges...or are you going to give no evidence like Sasha?

I assume you do not have a habit of starting your day with a morning coffee in the company of Mahathir. Have you ever walked in the streets of Kuala Lumpur? If i were to rely on the media resources that help you form "real life experience" i would have thought that roasted crickets, cocroaches and monkey brains were common amongst Malaysians who also frequently get caned for traffic offences. You have conveniently added "cause" to your conditions for detention... what makes you think that Mahathir did not have one?

The reporting on him is that he held political opponents in jail without charges...is that what you're standing on?  I don't have to have been in Kuala Lampur to make that connection - you're just throwing in specious argumentation, red herrings...I have good friends that are Malay by the way - and they're back and forth through there quite a lot..not that that would ever matter in your eagerness to impugn my arguments because I don't fit your image.  Well, what's your expertise?

If the result of his cause is peace, general wellbeing and a path towards economic recovery (that is quite the situtation of Malaysia today) - then i do not see the necessity of "liberating" people of Malaysia in accordance with Indonesian scenario. Thanks, but no thanks. May be that's exactly what angers the West when they hear of Mahathir.

B: Apparently freedom to live as one wishes is not high on your list of 'peace' - but it should be.  Thanks but NO THANKS to your scenario - maybe that's what bothers right thinking people everywhere, when they hear people defending violations of basic human rights..

Though i do not always agree with you I am glad to hear you listen to your parents, most of you in the west harldy know who their parents are.

B: Thanks for culling any more comments about the suffering of people in New Orleans - I have work colleagues down there now doing all they can to improve the situation...Let's pray for the suffering to subside as quickly as the water and may those who've died rest in peace and may their families find the comfort of the Father.

I say/pray the same for those killed by the COWARD child killers in Baghdad and for their dear families.

We should never mock human suffering for the sake of some back of the hand 'point' on this board..

b9500 i think you have tried too hard spinning your story on my mention of New Orleans victims. Please be remided that there was no "mocking", there were no "points made on the backs of suffering people"  and therefore you may want to keep your thanks as there is no culling of comments. Just because i do not fancy conducting a thorough post-mortem of every paragraph you post does not mean that i agree with you... i find it sinful even continue reasoning with you... wase of time is not allowed in Islam.

B: Ah, what about disrespect and mockery of suffering of others - is that allowed in Islam?  If you don't want to do post-mortems Mockba, I suggest you take care with your words when it comes to the suffering of other human beings...that's just first and that's just basic..

The suffering in New Orleans is by far the result of the very same idiotic governing team that disturbs living beings everywhere around the world.

B: You should quit while you're behind - your simplistic logic is making no sense.  You want to blame the verities of nature on political entities and you're sounding wild eyed now...do you really want to travel down this road of illogic?

They allocated so much effort in conquering remote oil-rigs that they had to ignore certain issues back at home. That is the point and you may well want to continue with your theories...

B: That is most certainly not the point of a Cat 5 Hurricane...get a grip Mockba...no one, and no government can stop a Cat 5 storm...are you going to blame 40,000 people dying in Tehran in an earthquake on the government in Iran and do you hear the US people doing that?  You're sounding foolish on this one..

Now if i were to reveal my "expertise" in Malaysia i think even your Malay friends (who may consider themselves "modern liberalists") would have to step aside...

Unlike them travelling back and forth I have spent more than half of my life there living amongst its people and getting first hand news.

B: Ah, you like to just sweep aside my Malay friends, but not so fast...what makes you have more veracity then they have?  Especially after your display here regarding natural disaster being blamed on governments?  Please..

Freedom to live as one wishes is definitely not in my priority listing.

B: Oh really?  That says a lot...I'm taking note...

I prefer law to lawlessness.

B: I concur to this...

If the idiotic governement used even half the manpower and equipment deployed in Iraq to evacuate residents of New Orleans the story would not be as sad...

B: People have freedom and make decisions - and there is a division of leadership also.  People died there for many reasons and much of the death was unavoidable and due to nature.  What part of that don't you understand Mockba?

also, if it matters at all, many innocent Iraqis would still be alive... You find it illogic? 

B: Extremely illogical - Saddam killed over 2 million and you're condemning Iraq to what 20 or 50 more years under him and then his heinous criminal, rapist, murdering sons?  Wow, Mockba - TALK to me about innocent Iraqis..

B: Extremely illogical - Saddam killed over 2 million

Prove:

1) he killed that many as you propound

2) US was not in cahouts with him through all his killings.

and we may start to treat you a wee less of a scoundrel.

That's where your so called search for truth expires.

B: So called?  You're the one that defends Saddam and talks of his public works with not one mention of his heinous mass murders and his sick rapist sons...oh, and then you say the US is 'evil.'  Yeah, like we're going to listen to that tripe, shoveled down our throats...like I said, it's sick man, really sick and pathetic when you lay out your agenda in black and white.

Can anyone in this world not be against all heinous killers? Is that not possible?
 
B: I would like to think so Sasha...I would like to think so - and yet, I needed to drag you to this conclusion only after you praised the public works of Saddam and acted like people 'had a reasonable chance of coming home.'  How stupid is that statement when millions didn't have that 'reasonable chance?'  Deal with the facts man.  The reason you did this was your singular obsession.  Not an obsession against the evil of mass killing - but your obsession with the removers of mass killers - when it can be done.  You're not obsessed with opposing the mass murderer Saddam but with tweaking the nose of the USA.  We see your agenda clearly for what it is.  And it is petty and it is immature and it would consign the people of Iraq and Afghanistan to Saddam and Mullah Omar - which you on some PERVERSE LEVEL prefer to the US led liberation efforts.  In my book, that reality, that resignation, especially based on what we now know more and more of, is sick.

http://www.massgraves.info/

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/3738368.stm

You're the one that defends Saddam and talks of his public works with not one mention of his heinous mass murders and his sick rapist sons

Iraq unfrastructure was a global reality - before the vandals of the world bombed it out. If mentioning Iraqi infrastructure id defending Saddam then you must be real American.

B: And you say elsewhere that you will give Saddam credit for what he has done that is good...and I say that's baloney to do that for a mass murderer...impugn him - will you not?!

This string is not about rapists - specially rapists who were not given the chance of a fair trial - that every one deserves in this world.

B: Are you denying they were rapists?  And since when do those that bring wrath and destruction and denied fair trials to millions they slaughtered and rape, deserve anything but what comes upon their head?

B: Show me how Saddam's killing and the US killing are AT ALL equivalent..At all...
Are Amreeki killings more kosher?

B: OK, the US killing has been done to free Iraq from tyranny, while Saddam's murders WERE THAT TYRANNY.  Can you not see the difference?  I pity you..

If you are all against bombing, letting the coalition help you,

All decent human beings are against bombings. Sir, I fail to understand what you mean by "letting coalition help you"? Who invited any coalition for any help?

Plus, I live in a country I genuinely love and that country doesn't bomb any poor helpless nations.