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To Hell With Muslim Terrorism

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Topic: To Hell With Muslim Terrorism
Posted By: MOCKBA
Subject: To Hell With Muslim Terrorism
Date Posted: 29 August 2005 at 6:52pm

To Hell With Muslim Terrorism  

By Abid Ullah Jan
August 24, 2005
________________________________


Pope Benedict is the latest figure who joined the chorus of other
self-appointed advisors to Muslims. Some Western analyst call his
remarks blunt while others consider these as "quite understated."[1]

In fact, Pope Benedict's August 21, 2005 address to Muslim leaders in
Germany is no less than the bull of Pius II, in which he announced a
new Crusade shortly after ascending the throne of St. Peter, in 1458.
There are very strong reasons for that.

First, the Pope serves, at least in Catholic theory, as the final
living arbiter of Christian doctrine. Secondly, His words are coming
at a time when all Muslims � from the unacceptable Hizb ut Tahrir to
the acceptable Muslim dictators and "moderates," and "fundamentalist"
sheikhs and mufties � have been relentlessly condemning terrorist acts
for the past four years. The only thing they didn't do is rubbing
their noses in the ground, literally and publicly.

Thirdly, lecturing Muslims on the need to put their house in order and
castigating them to denounce terrorists has become a vogue. After
Blair's firebrand statements and countless media pundits' threatening
all Muslims, the proverbial straw on the camel's back are the front
page headlines that read: "It's your job to stamp out terrorism, Pope
tells top Muslims. Steer Young Muslims away from 'barbarism, cruel
fanaticism,' he instructs leaders."[2]

Fourthly, the dangerous aspect of Pope Benedict's comments is that it
legitimizes actions of those who have already taken lives of at least
150,000 civilians alone since September 9/11. These war lords have set
aside their lies. They are now using the same excuses as justification
for their slaughter which Pope Benedict highlighted in his words. Like
earlier papal bulls, such words from Pope Benedict carry the potential
for new holocaust.

Muslims' collective denunciation of terrorism and full page apologies
in leading newspapers are clear signs that they have accepted the
official stories about all that happened from 9/11 to 7/7. They have
pleaded guilty on behalf of whosoever may have committed these crimes.
Unfortunately, what Muslims cannot do is to revive victims of the
alleged and real Muslim terrorism. Too sad for them!

At this point one wishes how nice it would have been, if Muslims could
somehow revive and return the dead, and pay for all the associated
damage before making the West listen to understand the root causes and
identify the real culprits behind the global mess.

Let us agree that occupation of Palestine is not one of the root
causes. Let us agree that occupation of Iraq and Afghan came after
9/11, so this could not be causes of grievances either. Let us agree
that the indirect occupation of Saudi Arabia and supporting other
dictators in Muslim countries are also mere excuses of Muslim
fanatics.

However, let us not forget that so far no evidence has been provided
to establish without a reasonable doubt that Muslims are solely
responsible for 9/11 and other terrorist attacks. When Pope speaks of
the "new barbarism" he must keep in mind that there has been no bull
issued by a highest authority in Islam, exhorting Muslim hordes to
descend on Europe and America. Still, let's assume that Muslims are
the terrorists. No person in his right senses, however, would agree
that there is no other cause and it is simply 'poisonous
interpretation" of Islam that is driving Muslims to become terrorists.

If we keep in mind the background of Pope and others' courage at
directly holding Muslims responsible for the global mess, we may
notice that the basis for their allegations hardly goes beyond 9/11.
Therefore, we have to compare the turmoil of the last four years with
all that has been happening for the past five centuries. It will help
us see if the world just turned upside down after 9/11 and now it is
Muslims' responsibility to bring an order to it, or the mess is far
deeper and far older than we actually recognize.

Those who are lecturing Muslims today, totally ignore that the state
of the world today is the result of a history of colonial atrocities
and resultant exploitative systems and structures erected. The story
goes back to 15th century, when the colonialists launched their bloody
campaign under the grand auspices of Vatican Church.

David Warren of Ottawa Citizen writes that the 1458 papal bull was
meant "to check the advance on Europe of ye Infidel Turk."[3] Let us
agree with him as well. However, may we ask, what about the subsequent
bulls upon bulls to justify colonialist adventure for civilizing
people other than "infidel Turks" in Africa, Asia and America.

According Steven T. Newcomb, Director of the Indigenous Law Institute,
Pope Alexander VI delivered the Inter Cetera papal bull on May 4,
1493.[4] Accordingly, this document, issued shortly after Columbus'
first voyage to the Caribbean, expressed the pope's earnest desire
that "barbarous nations be subjugated and brought to the faith
itself," "for the spread of the Christian Empire." Earlier such
crusading Vatican bulls called for "perpetual slavery" of Africans, by
capturing, vanquishing, and subduing them, and by taking away all
their possessions and property.

In the year of the Columbus quincentennial, these papal documents were
instrumental in the injustices committed against the peoples of the
Americas, Oceania, Africa, and Asia. Such papal bulls directly
sanctioned colonization, the slave trade, and bloody campaigns that
resulted in the deaths of millions. Scholars have correctly identified
the Inter Cetera bull as the historic cornerstone of colonialism
worldwide.

The Indigenous Law Institute ( http://ili.nativeweb.org/ - http://ili.nativeweb.org/ ) wrote a
letter in 1993 to Pope John Paul II, calling upon him to formally
revoke the Inter Cetera bull of 1493,[5] and to thereby explicitly
overturn the Church's doctrine of conquest and subjugation. But until
the last available information, the Institute received only a stony
silence from the Vatican.

None of the Muslims went out with a "bull" from a highest religious
authority in the Muslim world to civilize the barbarians of the West
through complete genocides. On the other hand, Samuel Eliot Morrison,
a Harvard historian and Columbus biographer, admits "the cruel policy
initiated by Columbus and pursued by his successors resulted in a
complete genocide".[6]

We hope that those who do not get tired of lecturing Muslims and
holding their faith responsible for all the wrongs in the world, would
find out how their co-religionists with the papal bulls decimated an
estimated population of 80 million at the time Columbus discovered
America "to a low of 210,000 in the 1910 census."[7] There victims in
these places were not Muslim barbarians for sure.

Someone might ask, but what has it to do with terrorism today? The
answer is: study the history of the Church-legitimized colonialism and
see its fruits in the present world order. You will find that the
turmoil is far less than what it should have been or soon will be.
Even Pope Benedict himself has acknowledged in a meeting with Rome's
clergy: "We have to confess that Europe has exported not only faith in
Christ, but also all sorts of vices, the sense of corruption, and
violence that devastates" the African continent.[8] In fact, Africa is
not alone, nor is that the end of the discussion.

Previous colonial adventures allowed imperialists to gradually
institutionalize their global dominance not only in Africa but
everywhere. Despite the apparent decolonization after four centuries,
the Western powers have managed to maintain this global dominance and
influence on the affairs of non-Western nations. Exploitation of their
wealth and resources continues till this day. The interference in the
internal affairs of Muslim states in particular has been more
intrusive because of the perceived ideological threat.

None of those who are obsessed with Muslim terrorism can deny that
today's international politico-economic structures are the logical
culmination of colonial history. The Western academic world and the
present day advisors to Muslims totally disregard genocides, plunder
of resources, introduction of class system and other legacies of their
colonial past. It would be total disregard of the facts to say that
colonial adventures did not provide foundations for the building of
the contemporary unjust world order.

Pope Benedict's admission about the link between violence and
corruption in Africa and colonialism gives us important clues. One,
that what he described as the problem are just symptoms of a deeper
malaise and hidden volcano. Second, the Pope is criticizing or holding
all Christian responsible for the deeds of many generations of the
colonialists. Instead, if one carefully reads words of Pope Benedict
XVI, he gives credit to colonialists for spreading Christianity, yet
he clearly separates their misdeeds from their faith.

Pope's voice adds further legitimacy to the ongoing killing spree in
the Muslim world. None of the Popes have been able to condemn ALL
Christians for the adventures of their colonialists co-religionists
for the simple reasons that they didn't want to reflect bad on the
their faith and also because they didn't want to expose the fact that
it was done with Vatican's authorization. History is repeating itself
with the Pope speaking the same language as the lairs who made their
way to butchering thousands of Muslims in Afghanistan and Iraq.

This approach is not only in total contrast to the way, Muslims'
crimes are directly associated with their faith, but it also shows how
role of the Church in colonialism is totally taken out of the
discussion.

Problems created by the four centuries of colonialism are not limited
to corruption and violence, as Pope Benedict acknowledges. An in-dept
study shows us that the same problem leads to the present adventures
of the US and its allies.

Like the 1458 papal bull, once more the focus is on Islam and Muslim
majority areas. Considering Muslims savages and lecturing them to
behave and get civilized is nothing new. Deliberate blindness towards
the past makes all those who attempt to lecture Muslims make wild
statements. They ignore that the seeds for the present destabilization
in the former colonial lands were sown centuries ago in the form of
imposing highly exploitive trading terms; indulging in undisguised
looting; transferring enormous amounts of wealth to Europe;
engineering and adapting these continents according to their own
interests in extending European hegemony.

As a result, the colonialists not only consolidated economic dominance
that continues till this day, but also political and cultural
dominance, which is one of the main root causes of unrest and friction
within the former colonies and in their relations with the former
colonial masters.

To gauge the cumulative impact of colonial adventures, think of a
hundred years of continued occupation of Iraq by the US from now. Like
the US, the former colonialists also boasted of introducing
parliamentary democracies, legal structures, educational systems, and
so on. But it is nothing more than mere modeling of a country's
structures upon the West, even in name only, to give the impression
that the country has undergone 'development'.

The sole objective and ultimate result of the colonial escapades has
been disfiguring and destroying the original cultures and
philosophies, and indeed enslaving them to dependence on, and
allegiance to, a self-interested West. Keep this fact aside and you'll
have nothing but Islam or Muslims to blame for the misdeed of those
who took hundreds of millions of lives to bring the world to the
present state.

Like the present myth of moderating and democratizing the Muslim
world, colonialists invented some convincing myths of benefiting the
colonies. According to Director of the Africa Business Information
Service, Tunde Obadina, observes: Whatever may have been its pluses
and minuses, colonialism was a dictatorial regime that denied peoples'
right of self determination. It brought death, pain and humiliation to
millions of its victims. The notion that colonialism was a civilizing
mission is a myth - the system was propelled by Europe's economic and
political self-interest.[9]

Pope Benedict's lecturing Muslims today to hold their "fanatics" for a
peaceful world is in a way paving the way for brining back to the
Muslim world the scenes, which Mark Twain described in these words:
"In many countries we have chained the savage and starved him to
death... in many countries we have burned the savage at the stake...
we have hunted the savage and his little children and their mother
with dogs and guns... in many countries we have taken the savage's
land from him, and made him our slave, and lashed him every day, and
broken his pride and made death his only friend, and overworked him
till he dropped in his tracks." In fact, worse than this sort of
inhuman treatment is meted out to Muslims today. A proof of which lies
in the fact that the US government is not releasing new pictures from
Abu Ghraib because before them Mark Twain's description of man's
inhumanity to man would pale by comparison.

The colonial legacy has left Muslim populated regions with a legacy so
entrenched that the people there find it hard to extricate themselves
from the legal and economic bondage. Self-rule has become an
impossible-to-realize dream for them. For example, if they want to
live by Islam, they find it almost impossible to say no to Riba
because the prime legacy of colonialism was the integration of
colonies into the international capitalist economy. Dictator Musharraf
had to go to the Supreme court to make Riba permissible.

The social, political and economic institutions which the colonialists
left behind and the continued interference since their strategic
withdrawal in the name of giving independence never let Muslims in
particular live independently. Self-rule remained a dream for them.

We need to stop talking about Muslim terrorism and holding all Muslims
responsible for crimes against humanity without proper investigation.
We should objectively compare the extent of the alleged Muslim crimes
and the proven record of the West.

It is too sad that those who are lecturing Muslims do not see what
Director of Research of the California-based Institute for Economic
Democracy, Dr. J. W. Smith, has observed. According to Dr. Smith,
through the devastating historical process, Western civilization has
been "responsible for violently killing 12 to 15 million people since
WW II and causing the death of 100s of millions more as their
economies were destroyed or those countries were denied the right to
restructure to care for their people. Unknown as it is, and
recognizing that this has been standard practice throughout
colonialism, that is the record of the Western imperial centers of
capital from 1945 to 1990." He adds that, "One hundred and fifty
thousand to 300,000 of these were tortured and killed by death squads
set up by Western intelligence agencies, primarily the CIA."[10]

Those who are lecturing 1.2 billion Muslims would do better to dig the
root causes of present turmoil and realize the Muslims are not
responsible for the present unjust global order. The political,
economic and cultural processes that began with colonialism,
culminated in the institutionalization of an international global
political economy dominated by the Western powers at the expense of
the rest of the world, which as Marc Ferro observes, began "replacing
a visible presence by the invisible government of the big banks: the
International Monetary Fund, World Bank, and so on": a system which
Ferro describes as "multinational imperialism".[11]

All the problems that we set aside in the beginning, Palestine,
occupations, dictators, US presence in Saudi Arabia, all come back as
logical corollaries and outputs of the darkest age of colonialism.

If Muslims are guilty at all of anything, they are guilty of not
living by Islam. That led to their fall since centuries. That
negligence is responsible for their touching the depth of humiliation
today. If they were colonized and exploited in the past, it was due to
their own weakness of faith and if they are facing their historic
humiliation today, it is because of their following others' way of
life and running away from Islam.

The reactive movements and violent elements are the direct product of
Muslims staying away from Islam and colonialists' never-ending
adventures in the Muslims world. The lecturers would do Muslims a
favor if they could ask their co-religionist, neo-colonialists to
leave Muslims alone and give them an opportunity for real independence
and self-rule.

David Warren of Ottawa Citizen complains that there is no one who
could say, he speaks for all Muslims. He believes the reason is that
Khilafah as abolished in 1924. So, let give Muslim a right to
self-determination and self-rule. Let there by Khilafah and a Khalifa,
so that he could say, I speak for all Muslims and this is our stand on
different issues.

http://www.ilaam.net/Main/AbidUllahJan.html - http://www.ilaam.net/Main/AbidUllahJan.html

Abid Ullah Jan is author of The End of Democracy. His book, The
Genesis of Final Crusade in Afghanistan, will be released soon.

 



-------------
MOCKBA



Replies:
Posted By: ummziba
Date Posted: 30 August 2005 at 5:08am

Assalamu alaikum,

Thank you for posting this article, Brother Mockba.  To me, the most interesting part is:

If Muslims are guilty at all of anything, they are guilty of not
living by Islam. That led to their fall since centuries. That
negligence is responsible for their touching the depth of humiliation
today. If they were colonized and exploited in the past, it was due to
their own weakness of faith and if they are facing their historic
humiliation today, it is because of their following others' way of
life and running away from Islam.

This is because I have heard all the rest many times already.  I already know of many of the sins of the Vatican.  This particular paragraph bites hard at a simple truth.  Today, the reality is that it is increasingly difficult for a Muslim to live by the Qur'an and Sunnah, even among Muslims. 

The world is in a sad state of affairs, no doubt, but we each are playing are parts.  May Allah strengthen the iman of the Believers in these trying times.

Peace, ummziba.

 



-------------
Sticks and stones may break my bones, but your words...they break my soul ~


Posted By: nico
Date Posted: 30 August 2005 at 11:27am
I hope people here realize the Church has asked for forgiveness for the injustices wrought on the Islamic people's...hopefully we will hear Muslims admit they have done wrong against our people one day too. I wonder if Muslims will ever admit to killing 1 million Aremenians because they were Christian and not Turkish. I wonder if Muslims will ever say thanks to the West for saving untold thousands of Muslims in Bosnia, and Kosovo, for allowing millions of Muslims to come into our countries to escape poverty, and political alienation? What we get in the West is those goods ignored, and our bads highlighted. Secondly the root cause of the decline of the Ummah as a world power has nothing to do with following the Qu'ran but simple materialism.


Posted By: MOCKBA
Date Posted: 30 August 2005 at 8:13pm

Bsimillah

Perhaps the Islamic concept of forgiveness (which is not valid without necessary action) is different from the Church's concept of eternal salvation... It should not be surprising therefore that Christians (or the crossworshipers who prefer to call themselves such) can be asking for forgiveness while still shedding blood of innocent people and developing plans for even more horrible injustices...

As far as your historical fables on the peoples of Caucasus and western assistance to a mainly ignorant of Islam, godless post-Socialist Bosnian mass, and which was carried out of clear political convenience, then it might not be quite appropriate in our context... Neither is "liberation" of Iraq and Afghanistan, if it crossed your mind. 

And materialism is only one of the fruits Muslims reap when they fail to follow Qur'an and Sunnah... Your reasoning does not seem to be making sense here, either.  



-------------
MOCKBA


Posted By: b95000
Date Posted: 30 August 2005 at 10:58pm
Originally posted by MOCKBA MOCKBA wrote:

Bsimillah

Perhaps the Islamic concept of forgiveness (which is not valid without necessary action) is different from the Church's concept of eternal salvation... It should not be surprising therefore that Christians (or the crossworshipers who prefer to call themselves such) can be asking for forgiveness while still shedding blood of innocent people and developing plans for even more horrible injustices...

B: Bladdy blah...are you thinking about outlining these 'horrible injustices' - I love how you expect us to read through some tea leaves to figure that out..?

As far as your historical fables on the peoples of Caucasus and western assistance to a mainly ignorant of Islam, godless post-Socialist Bosnian mass, and which was carried out of clear political convenience, then it might not be quite appropriate in our context... Neither is "liberation" of Iraq and Afghanistan, if it crossed your mind.

B: Naysay, naysay, naysay - oh, what's your alternative proposal for Iraq and Afghanistan?



-------------
Bruce
Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.


Posted By: Temi
Date Posted: 30 August 2005 at 11:18pm
Originally posted by MOCKBA MOCKBA wrote:

 

As far as your historical fables on the peoples of Caucasus and western assistance to a mainly ignorant of Islam, godless post-Socialist Bosnian mass, and which was carried out of clear political convenience, then it might not be quite appropriate in our context... Neither is "liberation" of Iraq and Afghanistan, if it crossed your mind. 

 

uhmmm, maybe that's why the Muslims are not doing much about the situation in Darfur leaving the West to pick the tab again. Since they talk about justice so much, When are the muslims going to do something for themselves?



-------------
"I swear by my life and my love of it that I will never live for the sake of another man, nor ask another man to live for mine."


Posted By: Angel
Date Posted: 31 August 2005 at 4:13am

Originally posted by Temi Temi wrote:

Since they talk about justice so much, When are the muslims going to do something for themselves?

Good point.



-------------
~ Our feet are earthbound, but our hearts and our minds have wings ~


Posted By: nico
Date Posted: 31 August 2005 at 11:32am

MOCKBA

It should not be surprising therefore that Christians (or the crossworshipers who prefer to call themselves such) can be asking for forgiveness while still shedding blood of innocent people and developing plans for even more horrible injustices...

Oh I see the bigot Muslim has come of his shell�shall I call Muslims rock worshipers since they pray to a rock in Mecca? Maybe you should stop insulting us Christians who Muhammad considered fellows in faith, and who�s faith could allow us into heaven, we all believe in Allah don�t we? Secondly I can smell the influence of rejectionist, and exceptionalist Wahhabism in your words. Thirdly the Church asked for forgiveness for acts committed by Christians under the Church�s acquiescence, but again you seem to believe that the Church is responsible for the acts of secular nations, who happen to be majority Christian. Then again you obviously are an ignorant person.

As far as your historical fables on the peoples of Caucasus and western assistance to a mainly ignorant of Islam, godless post-Socialist Bosnian mass, and which was carried out of clear political convenience, then it might not be quite appropriate in our context... Neither is "liberation" of Iraq and Afghanistan, if it crossed your mind.

What dribble are you talking about, explain yourself or don�t say anything at all. What are these new allegations of conspiracy against the West this time�it should be fun.

And materialism is only one of the fruits Muslims reap when they fail to follow Qur'an and Sunnah... Your reasoning does not seem to be making sense here, either.

Materialism is existent regardless of the Qu�ran or Allah, much of the interpretation of the Qu�ran and Sunnah is a result of materialism, it�s no coincidence that Islam has become less tolerant because it has become less of a Global religion into a introverted one, the reason being�materialism.



Posted By: MOCKBA
Date Posted: 31 August 2005 at 8:02pm

Bismillah

When you conveniently blame Muslims for every terrorits attack, i do not see the reason why you should prevent me from believeing that the Church is responsible for the acts of secular nations who "happen" to be majority Christian... especially when they openly call their missions "Crusades" and launch them with religious ceremonies.  

So please, with your global godlessness, unbelieving gay bishops and ministerial paedophiles i advise you to take a step back and not tell me of the Christians that Islam referred to as monotheist believers in Allah or of Islam's tolerance.  

I am not an Iraqi, not qualified to deal with the subject in length and out of my own personal experience, therefore not in the position to propose localised solution to Iraq and Afghanistan...and Darfour. Although my first step would undoubtedly be sending invaders to where they belong...  

 



-------------
MOCKBA


Posted By: nico
Date Posted: 01 September 2005 at 11:02am

MOCKBA

Really as a Westerner I have very option but to laugh at the rationale you use Mockba, this is the typical ignorant mishmash of a so called argument. Typical extremist, Wahhabi Qutbist Muslims use against the West thinking they are smart. Chances are you know little to nothing about Western thought, and practice and get your little ques from the biased media. Let�s see what the comedian says today:

When you conveniently blame Muslims for every terrorits attack,

Excuse me what nonsense did u say here? Point to me where I have personally said that all terrorist attacks are carried out by Muslims? Let me guess you think that the terrorist attacks against the West were done by Mossad with CIA help? I even heard Muslims say that the Italian Mafia also helped in the attacks. What these Muslims are doing is showing the decline of a once great society, when a civilization has to resort to conspiracy theories it�s a sign of major societal collapse. You know the Germans (especially the youth) blamed their decline after WWI on the Jews, and their �gentile slaves� in London, Paris, Washington and guess who came from those ashes, Hitler. Some Muslims today seem to take their ques from the Germans of the past. At least the Germans could actually do real harm to people�that�s the difference.  

 i do not see the reason why you should prevent me from believeing that the Church is responsible for the acts of secular nations who "happen" to be majority Christian... especially when they openly call their missions "Crusades" and launch them with religious ceremonies.  

Is your ignorance of the West and Christianity this deep? It would be like a Zionist saying that Islam is responsible for terrorism. Wahhabi Muslims and Zionists are the same in many respects, they use the same tired logic of character assassination and they know little about their �enemy� apart from what they have been spoon fed as a child. The Church is responsible for what the Church does and sanctions, it is not responsible for the acts of all Catholics if it were then the individual would shoulder no responsibility (but then again your simplistic view of my religion doesn�t factor that in). About Bush saying it�s a Crusade, I was shocked as a Christian that he would use such a term. Secondly he is not a Catholic so the Church cannot do anything against him. Thirdly if the Church was part of this �war on Islam� nonsense then why would it have opposed the Iraq War? If you have a problem with Christians it should be messianic Baptists in the Southern United States, I am afraid of them they are our own Wahhabi�s. Here�s a further explanation of the world for you:

http://www.islamicity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=2091& ; ;PN=1

So please, with your global godlessness, unbelieving gay bishops and ministerial paedophiles i advise you to take a step back and not tell me of the Christians that Islam referred to as monotheist believers in Allah or of Islam's tolerance.

Oh the hypocrisy of a Muslim talking about �homosexual� religious individuals, Caliphs were known to have sex with young boys as well and men. Here�s an example of �homosexual� love in ancient Islam:

http://www.androphile.org/preview/Library/Mythology/Arabian/AbuNuwas/img/Dervisholdman.jpg - http://www.androphile.org/preview/Library/Mythology/Arabian/ AbuNuwas/img/Dervisholdman.jpg

Quote Description:

Riza i-Abbasi

Sheykh Propositioning Youth

Old man waggles tongue
and makes a suggestive gesture
to an interested youth.

Isfahan, Iran,
Safavid Dynasty, ca. 1605 

There�s lots more of male-male love in Islam, so don�t even dare come to me and try to plaster something that your religion tolerated. Secondly unbelieving bishop is a contraction (wouldn�t a imam calling for murder make him a unbeliever as well); thirdly �homosexuality� cannot be considered a sin in Christianity as Jesus never spoke of it, and the main motive of Christianity is love not exclusion. As stated by a Christian theologian:

Quote Jacob Milgrom in his magisterial commentaries on Leviticus25 has suggested that the �literal�

meaning of the Levitical prohibitions is not a prohibition on all homosexual activities. Reading the

text �literally� he points out the following: the prohibition applies only to ancient Israelites, or to

inhabitants of Israel, it applies only to anal intercourse, it applies only to men, not women, and it

may only apply to sex between men of the same kinship connections that is prohibited for

heterosexual relations.

So Christians are exempt from any condemnation in the Bible of �homosexuality�. Sorry if my religious interpretation isn�t as simple as yours�

Although my first step would undoubtedly be sending invaders to where they belong...  

That�s fine as long as you don�t declare fake Jihad�s�



Posted By: MOCKBA
Date Posted: 01 September 2005 at 4:32pm

Bismillah

Arguing with you is disgusting. Even if there were incidents of ill-behaviour amongst people calling themselves Muslims... Islam never approved it rather continues to detest it. Yes there are homosexuals among Arabs, Persians, Malays... and Islam abhores them all. Unlike today's Church, though you find an escape route through its fragmented passages and opinions "i am Catholic, she is Baptist, they are protestants and so on". They have all forgotten God and become mere cross-worshippers, and not Christians anymore.

As a westener you may continue laughing... mind though, that your laugh is not the last. I have no problem with you putting your lables on me and calling me some Wahhabi, Qutubi and trying to attribute to me your notion of false Jihad... quite typical of westeners. You refuse to see what is clear and obvious yet buy the most fake conspiracy theory of the day... the WMD (Want More Dead?) by Bush & Co. Still, laughing? Bravo!

Your attitude and response just says it all... yet, once again I allowed myself respond to your blabber. I paticularly like that "thinking they are smart" tail... classic of immature sore losers.

Adios!

Originally posted by nico nico wrote:

Really as a Westerner I have very option but to laugh at the rationale you use Mockba, this is the typical ignorant mishmash of a so called argument. Typical extremist, Wahhabi Qutbist Muslims use against the West thinking they are smart.

 



-------------
MOCKBA


Posted By: nico
Date Posted: 02 September 2005 at 12:06pm

Arguing with you is disgusting.

The truth hurts doesn�t it? Nothing I said is disgusting, nothing I said is insulting, those are your connotations of what I wrote not what was objectively written. So please explain to us what is �so disgusting�?

Even if there were incidents of ill-behaviour amongst people calling themselves Muslims... Islam never approved it rather continues to detest it.

Islam did what Christianity does tolerate it, it has been noted that Islam was the most tolerant of homosexuality in the period prior to the renaissance and enlightenment of the West. In Islam sex with boys is seem as ok as the boy is not a man and thus not really homosexual:

Quote The Mamlukes (ruling medieval Egypt) indulged in pederasty with boys from the Central Asian steppes (Murray; Greenberg)[41]. In medieval Southwestern Asia, the Mamluk[e]s of the sultanate governments were forbidden to have sex with females but commonly had boys as sexual partners. The adult Mamluk would educate his boy apprentice (cf. Hardman, 1990; Williams, 1998, 2000)[42]. Persia for centuries was especially renowned for its boy-brothels. Until the later half of the 20th century, it was "still an easy matter to find child prostitutes in the Middle and Far East" (Benjamin and Masters, 1964:p162[43];

I laugh at you for your ignorance of your own culture, and you come to us and say �look at your priests� with priests its isolated incidents, we don�t have �boy brothels� in the West like you have in your virtuous �Ummah�..HA! Stop being a hypocrite and learn about your reality.

Yes there are homosexuals among Arabs, Persians, Malays... and Islam abhores them all.

Actually no it doesn�t Islam does not consider homosexuality a sin, what it considers sinful is the act of it, of which there is no clear cut definition as stated by a Muslim:

Quote So if you look at it that way, Allah (swt) doesn't even say that its wrong... And in Islamic law, the only way something can be haraam (forbidden) is if it is explicity stated, either in the Quran or by the Rasul (pbuh), for example, pork, alcohol, etc.

The only ayat and the only hadith that mention same-sex acts, mind you they are actual sex, not the identity of being gay (which is a very new and Western phenomenon, and a discussion for another time), are the following

Indeed the idea of �homosexuality� is a western creation, so please lets not be so ignorant.

Unlike today's Church, though you find an escape route through its fragmented passages and opinions "i am Catholic, she is Baptist, they are protestants and so on".

Or in Islam you could say you are Sunni, Shi�a, Druze, Alawi, Sufi, Wahhabi, etc. What�s your point? If you are going to criticize us at least look at yourselves first.

They have all forgotten God and become mere cross-worshippers, and not Christians anymore.

Fine then you have become nothing more then rock worshipers�unlike you Chrisitans can pray at time, anywhere, you have to pray to a rock. We don�t need a cross to believe in God, he is everywhere, unlike you where you must pray to Mecca. So whom here is really the idolater?

As a westener you may continue laughing...

As we have been doing for 500 years�

I have no problem with you putting your lables on me and calling me some Wahhabi, Qutubi and trying to attribute to me your notion of false Jihad... quite typical of westeners.

Unlike other westerners I am wiling and able to prove you are those things�wanna start?

You refuse to see what is clear and obvious yet buy the most fake conspiracy theory of the day... the WMD (Want More Dead?) by Bush & Co. Still, laughing? Bravo!

You really are REALLY ignorant�I don�t support the Iraq War, nor do I support the Bush administration as I do see them as a threat to the world. Show me where I have supported Bush�quote me. You are the typical Muslims believing that all of us in the West blindly support Bush�Politically we probably agree more then we disagree.

Your attitude and response just says it all... yet, once again I allowed myself respond to your blabber. I paticularly like that "thinking they are smart" tail... classic of immature sore losers.

I am ready to play the game�are you?



Posted By: MOCKBA
Date Posted: 02 September 2005 at 5:44pm

Bismillah

Nico, you can play games on your own... but i warn you to slow down on preaching Islam from your cross-worshippers' perspective... giving nothing else but historical fables of earlier generation of missionary writers "expaining" Islam. Islam is not what comes to mind of Murray and Greenberg in your references...  

If you find your elaboration on paedophilia not disgusting that only proves how "Christian" you are...  

In my recent posts I have not mentioned Wahabi or Sunni or Shia... you brought the subject of Protestants, Catholics, Baptists and you made a mention of Wahabi trying to attribute such label to me... and now you invite me to "play games" that i find insulting to humans endowed with intellect and reasoniong.

 



-------------
MOCKBA


Posted By: Nausheen
Date Posted: 02 September 2005 at 9:22pm

Auzubillahi minash shaitan ir rajeem,

Bismillah ir rahman ir rahim,

Originally posted by nico nico wrote:

while your Caliphs had sex with men and killed their wives and children to keep it quiet! (I can also prove that if you want). Its very simple most Muslims are ignorant of their own history

Nico, u need to change your tone right away. We do not issue too many warnings. I have told you earlier also, we allow certain freedom of speech, but that is not a total freedom. We do not want to learn from you what our Caliphs did. We would rather remain ignorant in this matter if you like - dont leave us with too little choices regarding your posts and your status on the boards.

Thank you,

N.



-------------
<font color=purple>Wanu nazzilu minal Qurani ma huwa

Shafaa un wa rahmatun lil mo'mineena

wa la yaziduzzalimeena illa khasara.
[/COLOR]


Posted By: nico
Date Posted: 03 September 2005 at 11:24am

Nico, u need to change your tone right away.

Dare I ask�what tone did I present which was problematic? Its funny Nausheen you complain about my �tone� but tolerate MOCKBA�s insults not only against me but my religion? When I showed him and you that no my religion is not at fault for the actions of the few, and secondly to criticize my people for doing things that your people do much more�is the height of hypocrisy. Is that the �tone� you speak of, do you have a problem with the truth?  

I have told you earlier also, we allow certain freedom of speech, but that is not a total freedom.

Nausheen I understand that, but free speech demands that one is allowed to speak truth, the only restriction on free speech can be if one advocates violence or hatred�MOCKBA has advocated hatred against Christians with his hyperbolic and Wahhabi useage of the word �cross worshipers�, yet my posts are deleted? Seems free speech only applies to those things you want to hear, not truth.

We do not want to learn from you what our Caliphs did. We would rather remain ignorant in this matter if you like �

That is the saddest thing I have EVER heard a Muslim say�one of Islam�s greatest assests has been the pursuit of knowledge and truth through Ilm, and you come here and call yourself a Muslim wanting and willingly being ignorant!?! Says a lot about Muslims today compared to their forefathers.

Nausheen I am not here to anger Muslims, many Muslims support me and understand me. Muslims I speak to on purpose would NEVER say that they would want to �remain ignorant� of their own history. I really am at a loss for words Nausheen I really am.  



Posted By: MOCKBA
Date Posted: 03 September 2005 at 7:53pm

Bismillah

Many people who claim they are Christians today are in reality cross-worshippers or in orthodox societies they are often icon-worshippers.

Though there are some Christians who do worship God and are themselves disgusted with distortions that are brought into their religion by the corrupt popes, political whores and perverted bishops.

Hence there is no insult against religion... unless you consider yourself a cross-worshipper and choose to defend the right of perverts. There is insult however when fables and fiction are attributed to Islam, or filthy acts of wrongdoers are propagated as manifestation of Islam.

  



-------------
MOCKBA


Posted By: Lameese
Date Posted: 03 September 2005 at 8:26pm

Well, honestly that can go for all the religions today. No one is as good a religious person as they could be or should be. No one is like the religious people of the past.  No one.........

 

Lameese



Posted By: MOCKBA
Date Posted: 03 September 2005 at 10:29pm

Bismillah

That cannot go for Islam.

It may go for some who call themselves "Muslims" but are not following and instead are completely ignorant of the unchanged Quran and the Prophetic teachings... but it cannot go for Islam which is based on obedience and worship of One and incomparable God - Allah, The Great and The Glorious.

 

 



-------------
MOCKBA


Posted By: Lameese
Date Posted: 03 September 2005 at 10:37pm

MOCKBA,

It goes for all people from all religions. Not the religion itself. Is English your first language? Just wondering.

 

 

Lameese



Posted By: b95000
Date Posted: 07 September 2005 at 12:36am
Originally posted by nico nico wrote:

[moderator edited]



A boy has no choice in that matter visa vi some perverted adult - I don't care what culture or country we're discussing on that matter.  This is simply rape and has nothing to do with being 'tolerant of homosexuality' as you put it..sick..


-------------
Bruce
Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.


Posted By: b95000
Date Posted: 07 September 2005 at 12:45am
Originally posted by MOCKBA MOCKBA wrote:

Bismillah

That cannot go for Islam.

It may go for some who call themselves "Muslims" but are not following and instead are completely ignorant of the unchanged Quran and the Prophetic teachings... but it cannot go for Islam which is based on obedience and worship of One and incomparable God - Allah, The Great and The Glorious.

 



I can say that Christianity is too splintered - it is far from Jesus vision/prayer for unity in John 17 among his disciples and all who believe through their message.  But certainly the same can be said of Islam and Muslims.  Why is this?   Lameese seems to have a most humble approach to this question, and she a faithful Muslim..


-------------
Bruce
Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.


Posted By: nico
Date Posted: 10 September 2005 at 1:14pm
My response to you B95000 was deleted because it obviously exposed to much truth about the state of society in the Ummah...if you or anyone else wants to hear the answer PM me.


Posted By: Whisper
Date Posted: 11 September 2005 at 12:07pm

I understand. The sad thing is that things do happen when any system is not implemented properly. There is enough on what you are saying in old Farsi literature of that day. Forced unnatural codes breed unnatural acts. It's a very sad reality also amongst the Pushtoons on both sides of the border.

 



Posted By: rami
Date Posted: 13 September 2005 at 8:50am
Bi ismillahir rahmanir raheem

I have just gone through this thread, nico has been banned. There was no excuse for that post after clearly being warned by both moderators.


-------------
Rasul Allah (sallah llahu alaihi wa sallam) said: "Whoever knows himself, knows his Lord" and whoever knows his Lord has been given His gnosis and nearness.


Posted By: Suleyman
Date Posted: 13 September 2005 at 10:02am

Folks,please read al-fatiha for the soul of Nico...amin...



Posted By: nico
Date Posted: 13 September 2005 at 1:02pm
Sorry to disappoint you Rami...but I am here. The moderators warned me to stop speaking the truth, so tell me what virtue is there is lying to you? Do you want me to lie to you? If so I will...



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