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female circumcision [Moderator Edited]

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Topic: female circumcision [Moderator Edited]
Posted By: MOCKBA
Subject: female circumcision [Moderator Edited]
Date Posted: 21 March 2005 at 12:10am

Could anyone share some reference at least indicating that female circumcision was practiced and approved during the time of the last Prophet, Muhammad [Peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him]?

The fact that it is widely practised in Malaysia, Egypt and Indonesia is not evidence enough of it being part of Islaamic teaching or practice. The consumption of hot fresh chilies is also above normal average in these countries; doesn't give it any Islaamic flavour, unlike dates for example. 

It may not be necessary to create unecessary commotion around strictly cultural practice and infusing it with religious character. Whether it has solid proof for its medical benefits is a different subject. 

Looking forward to authentic sources, Insha Allaah.

MOCKBA

 



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MOCKBA



Replies:
Posted By: ummziba
Date Posted: 21 March 2005 at 7:02am

This is undoubtably a very contenious topic.  I would suggest anyone considering such a thing as female circumcision, more appropriately called female genital mutilation, really do some homework.

There are tons of opinions on the web, but I would suggest sticking to the opinions of learned scholars of Islam to find the Islamic viewpoint.  It would seem, on reading many fatwas about it, that even the scholars are divided on their opinion about it.  Here are a few examples:

http://www.islamonline.net/fatwa/english/FatwaDisplay.asp?hFatwaID=87230 - http://www.islamonline.net/fatwa/english/FatwaDisplay.asp?hF atwaID=87230

http://www.islamonline.net/fatwa/english/FatwaDisplay.asp?hFatwaID=79655 - http://www.islamonline.net/fatwa/english/FatwaDisplay.asp?hF atwaID=79655

http://www.islamonline.net/fatwa/english/FatwaDisplay.asp?hFatwaID=31397 - http://www.islamonline.net/fatwa/english/FatwaDisplay.asp?hF atwaID=31397

You can find almost as many opinions on circumcision as there are Muslims!!!  The thing is, I think we have to use our knowledge and REASON to come to any conclusion for ourselve on this topic.

As Muslims, we are not supposed to get tattoos, cut our teeth, have unnecessary plastic surgery or even pluck our eyebrows.  Muslims use the following Qur'anic verse to justify not altering one's physical features as Allah created them:

4:118-1:20 Allah did curse him (Satan), but he said: 'I will take of Thy servants a portion marked off;'  'I will mislead them, and I will create in them false desires; I will order them to slit the ears of cattle, and to deface the (fair) nature created by Allah.'  Whoever, forsaking Allah, takes Satan for a friend, hath of a surety suffered a loss that is manifest.  Satan makes them promises, and creates in them false desires; but Satan's promises are nothing but deception.

It seems, to my reasoning mind, after reading much on this subject in the past, that it is one of those things we must consider on its merits.  I do not personally believe that a merciful and loving Allah would not allow me to pluck my eyebrows but would expect me to have my genitals mutilated!  This makes no sense at all.  I would not take the word of one who seems happy with her mutilation as justification to do so myself.  I happen to enjoy the Allah given pleasure that my genitals allow me in the form they were shaped by Allah.

I am sure there are many different opinions out there, this is only mine.  I urge anyone out there to seek knowledge from reliable sources.

Peace, ummziba



Posted By: AhmadJoyia
Date Posted: 21 March 2005 at 5:43pm

I think female circumcision is purely a cultural issue which, at the time, needed some sort of religious support and hence appeared in the form of unauthentic hadiths. It is not a contentious issue at all untill we start making it ourself with a single view point of cultural obligation. I would rather go out a little further by properly classifying that male circumcision is also not a mandatory obligation i.e. its not a Farads, but come into the category of Sunnah. Sunnah of Prophet Ibrahim (and not his wives) and continuing down to sunnah of Prophet Mohammad (and not his wives). Rest Allah knows the Best.

Now as far as Sis Amena99999's comments are concerned, I am really amazed to see how easily people get trapped in the cultural practices without dewelling into authentic literature/sources.



Posted By: abuayisha
Date Posted: 21 March 2005 at 8:46pm

Ibn Qudamah (may Allah have mercy on him) said, in his book al-Mughni: "Circumcision is obligatory for men, and it is an honour for women, but it is not obligatory for them. This is the opinion of many scholars. (Imam) Ahmad said: For men it is more strictly required, but for women it is less strictly required." (al-Mughni 1/70).

Circumcision of the female consists of the removal of a part of the clitoris, which is situated above the opening of the urethra. The Sunnah is not to remove all of it, but only a part. (al-Mawsu�ah al-Fiqhiyyah 19/28).

In this matter, it is wise to follow the interests of the female: if the clitoris is large, then part of it should be removed, otherwise it should be left alone. This size of the clitoris will vary from woman to woman, and there may be differences between those from hot climates and those from cold climates.

A hadith on the topic of female circumcision has been attributed to the Prophet (Peace and Blessings of Allah be upon Him), according to which he said: "Circumcision is a Sunnah for men, and an honour for women," but there is some debate as to the authenticity of this hadith. See Silsilah al-Ahadith al-Da�ifah by al-Albani, no. 1935.

How circumcision is to be performed is mentioned in the hadith narrated by Umm �Atiyah, may Allah be pleased with her, according to which a woman used to perform circumcisions in Madinah. The Prophet (Peace and Blessings of Allah be upon Him) told her: "Do not abuse (i.e. do not go to extremes in circumcising); that is better for the woman and more liked by her husband." (Reported by Abu Dawud in al-Sunan, Kitab al-Adab; he said this hadith is da�if).



Posted By: MOCKBA
Date Posted: 21 March 2005 at 9:40pm

Jazzak Allahu Khair for the inputs. It helps. We must distinguish between modern body piercing popular among some "modern world" youngsters, tattoo  common among some elderly Kurdish women and other similar cultural practices and not let it blend with Islamic teachings.

On the other hand, an instant flash of prohibition of "plucking of eye-brows" in one of the replies above, should similarly not be put in the catogory of cultural practices as there is strong evidence in the ahadeeth. Unless the plucking is done for reasons other than beautification... may be medical... etc.  

And Allaah knoweth best.

MOCKBA



Posted By: rami
Date Posted: 22 March 2005 at 3:21am
Bi ismillahir rahmanir raheem

assalamu alaikum

The following is from sunnipath.com the answers are according to the shafii and hanafi traditional schools of thought respectively.

Female circumcision    
Answered by Sister Shazia Ahmad   

I have a question regarding circumcision according to the Shafi'i school. My understanding is, based on what I have read in the Reliance, that circumcision is obligatory for both men and women. I am clear on what circumcision entails for boys, but what about girls?

I came across an anti-Islamic site whose sole intent is to malign, denigrate, and demonize Islam and on their site, which is called answering-islam.org, they claim that Sheikh Keller's translation of the passage regarding female circumcision is deceptive and incorrect, claiming that the original Arabic calls for the removal of the female�s clitoris, whereas Sheikh Keller's translation, only calls for a removal of a bit of skin from it.

What is the correct meaning? I also ask this question because my wife is pregnant, and in sha Allah, we may have a girl and I want to know that if this procedure is obligatory, how exactly it is done so that my daughter is not harmed.

Female circumcision is it itself obligatory in the Shafi`i school, and Shaykh Nuh Keller�s translation in the Reliance of the Traveler is accurate and defines the meaning well.

It does not call for the removal of the clitoris (badhr), but rather a slight trimming of it (khafad) to increase sexual pleasure. If the removal of the clitoris was intended, the word badhr would have been used alone. See the following link:

http://www.sunnipath.com/resources/Questions/QA00001940.aspx - Female circumcision

(see next Q&A)

Since the correct practice has become so lost, and has deviated in many cultures to gross mutilation, many opt to take the Hanbali or Hanafi dispensation, because the former considers it a sunna while the latter considers it a courtesy to the husband. [And living Shafi`i scholars in many lands mention that given that the correct practice has become an almost-lost art, the ruling within the school of the prevalent forms of circumcision would be impermissibility - ed.]

And Allah knows best.

Shazia.


RE: Female circumcision
Answered by Sidi Faraz Rabbani

I have a Question regarding female circumcision in Hanafi fiqh. I've heard from several sources that this is wajib according to Shafi'i fiqh, while according to Hanafi fiqh the decision lies in the hands of the husband. Can you shed some light on this and give the legal proofs for this ruling?!

Walaikum assalam,

That which is wajib in the Shafi`i texts is merely slight 'trimming' of the tip of the clitoris. It is neither excision nor FGM, nor anything else harmful to the woman or her ability to derive sexual pleasure. This is what the Hanafis considered an 'token' for the husband. It is not recommended per se.

As for excision, FGM, or other harmful practices, which have become culturally widespread, none of these are in any way permitted. This is why the scholars generally say that the proper practice is almost a lost art.

And Allah alone gives success.

Wassalam,
Faraz Rabbani

Just to point out all the countries mentioned above primarely follow the shafii madhhab which is why it is widely practiced there. I think it is important to know according to which madhahab a legal opinion (fatwa) is given otherwise the fatwa means very little.




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Rasul Allah (sallah llahu alaihi wa sallam) said: "Whoever knows himself, knows his Lord" and whoever knows his Lord has been given His gnosis and nearness.


Posted By: AhmadJoyia
Date Posted: 22 March 2005 at 6:47am
A hadith on the topic of female circumcision has been attributed to the Prophet (Peace and Blessings of Allah be upon Him), according to which he said: "Circumcision is a Sunnah for men, and an honour for women," but there is some debate as to the authenticity of this hadith. See Silsilah al-Ahadith al-Da�ifah by al-Albani, no. 1935. 
 The only hadith narrated to support the female circumcision is itself doubtful. Secondly, this is a matter whose applicability is vastly spread among large proportion  of population of muslim ummah ( roughly around 50%). This calls for multiple sources of authentic sunnah from the Prophet himself to support any view. Similarly on the application of circumcision, the reference itself is declaring the hadith as 'daif'. (Reported by Abu Dawud in al-Sunan, Kitab al-Adab; he said this hadith is da�if). As I see, different people quoting various scholars to provide final "verdict" on the matter without giving details of how they reached at the decision; seems quite uncomfortable to me. Even, Rami, the passage you quoted from some Q/A session, does the same error where despite the enquirer is clearly asking for the legal evidence "Can you shed some light on this and give the legal proofs for this ruling?!" This is a typical way of responses that I have seen on most of the websites that have been quoted above, except one which provides some good discussion on the topic. Remember, authenticity of a hadith is the most important parameter that must be confirmed before it is quoted what to talk about knowingly quoting unauthentic ones. All "hukums" or opinons of scholars become challangeable if they don't support their views with authentic sources. Similarly, quoting from some book of a scholar is meaningless untill the book also provides references from the original sources of Quran and authentic Sunnah. Allah knows the best.


Posted By: herjihad
Date Posted: 23 March 2005 at 6:49pm

Bismillah,

The supporters of this are ethnocentrically bound to their culture's influence on their Islaam.  Many of the statements the supporters have posted here are not well thought out. (What would the woman do if the man who raped her were circumsised?!?)  The woman who says she still enjoys being with her husband but is freed from unwanted sexual thoughts, and the experience is made more spiritual? A confused picture is given by this. The operation was physically very painful, but you would do it again because it was also spiritual?  That is not within Islaamic thought to enjoy pain! That is masochism. Have your heard of the people who pierce their back with a large hook and hang themselves up like meat?  They speak of this euphoric experience you do also.  And neither one of the descriptions of pain ectasy sounds like an action in any way encouraged in our faith. 

(If you have a problem with too many sexual thoughts, prayer and fasting are some Islaamic suggestions.) 

Islaamic circumsion is not intended to kill sexuality.  If Allah, SWT, wanted us to be asexual, Allah, SWT, would have created us that way. 

 Muslims have been much more open in discussions of sexuality than any church meeting I have ever attended.  It is an issue to be discussed based on need for knowledge, and it is.  The Christian tradition for years was that the subject of sexuality was not a religious one, and to be avoided. 

If you want to be bound to cultural practices in this way, it is up to you.  I have my own ethnocetrisms that I just have to keep also. AlHamdulilah, mine hurt a whole lot less than yours. 



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Al-Hamdulillah (From a Married Muslimah) La Howla Wa La Quwata Illa BiLLah - There is no Effort or Power except with Allah's Will.


Posted By: rami
Date Posted: 23 March 2005 at 10:41pm
Bi ismillahir rahmanir raheem

Originally posted by AhmadJoyia AhmadJoyia wrote:

See Silsilah al-Ahadith al-Da�ifah by al-Albani, no. 1935.


Is this
Nasir al-Albani?  if so he is an unacceptable authority in traditional Islam ie the four schools of thought and there is real doubt over his scholarship and qualafications ie Ijazah as a muhadith.

If it is
Nasir al-Albani as i am assuming, i do not want to turn this thread into a discussion about him.

as i stated earlier the above view is that of the shafii and hanafi madhhabs given by scholars from those madhhabs who have proper ijazah to do so although i am not familiar with
"Sister Shazia Ahmad". if you require further clafirication on the issue please ask them it is a Q&A site after all.

If you would like to know more about the scholars behind Sunnipath.com
http://www.sunnipath.com/about/TeachersandStaff.aspx#Other_Teachers - here is the link

Just to add,

"
' Umdat al-Salik wa 'Uddat al-Nasik (Reliance of the Traveller and tools of the Worshipper) is a classic manual of fiqh. It represents the fiqh rulings according to the Shafi'I school of jurisprudence." It is certified by "Al Azhar". It represents an explanative interpretation of 'Umdat al-salik, a classic Sunni manual of sacred law by Ahmad Ibn Naqib al-Misri (d769/1368) that comprises the work of Imam Nawawi, the great thirteenth century Shaffi hadith scholar and juriprudent (expert in fiqh). Ibn Naqibs famous handbook carefully summarizes the onclusions of Nawawi's legal encyclopidia al-Majmu on all aspects of practicing Islam, from prayer, marriage, jihad, and inheritence to other facets of islamic life.

The book contains over six thousand rullings of islamic law, more than any other english refrence volume.
Of the 136 works drawn upon in its commentary and appendices, 134 are in the original Arabic.

Basicaly the rullings i gave above are those of traditional sunni islam not the opinions of people!


I also have a copy
.



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Rasul Allah (sallah llahu alaihi wa sallam) said: "Whoever knows himself, knows his Lord" and whoever knows his Lord has been given His gnosis and nearness.


Posted By: rami
Date Posted: 24 March 2005 at 5:47am

Bi ismillahir rahmanir raheem

asslamu alaikum

The following is the shafii ruling on female circumcision as found in Reliance of the Traveller.

e4.3 Circumcision is obligatory (O:for both men and women. For men it consists of removing the prepuce from the penis, and for women, removing the prepuse (Ar. bazr) of the clitoris (n: not the clitoris itself, as some mistaken assert). (A: Hanbalis hold that circumcision of a women is not obligatory but sunna, while Hanafis consider it a mere courtesy to the husband). (p.59)



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Rasul Allah (sallah llahu alaihi wa sallam) said: "Whoever knows himself, knows his Lord" and whoever knows his Lord has been given His gnosis and nearness.


Posted By: Sophie_J
Date Posted: 25 March 2005 at 1:58pm
Asalaamu Alaykum

a warning for you, a sister and I were harassed by circumcision [Moderator Edited] in the past as they came into our group on hijab issues; the sister and I found that these people have groups on yahoo where all the articles posted by 'ameenah99999' are posted; these groups are full of nasty pornographic pictures of women and girls being mutilated and abused;[Moderator Edited]

To brother Rami that is one shafi'i view on female circumcision there is also another view; it isn't required and many of those who believe it is now say that has been abrogated by circumstances such as many Muslims going to extremes with what is done (the sunnipath fatwa posted has more info on this)

Sophie

Please do not use terms like that again. Your post is highly speculative, please do not slander forum members it will not be tolerated.   Rami.


Posted By: chastebeauty
Date Posted: 25 March 2005 at 11:28pm

Salamualaykum

It so interesting and sad to see so called Muslims are busy consoling themselves over mistakes they are clearly aware is unislamic and uncalled for, upon all, encouraging others to make the same mistakes they made...Authubillah!!! May Allah save us from their sharr for indeed what they are encouraging is bida'a. The prophet SAW was sent to give a perfect guide on how we should live our lives(sunnah), how come there is no authentic hadith proving he circumcised his daughters or wives?.....Get real and be sober for you went thru pain unnecessarily and seek for forgiveness for those you misled (Ameenah9999 & co).

Great job herjihad....U got good points there (they kept contradicting themsleves!!

Salam!!!



Posted By: rami
Date Posted: 26 March 2005 at 2:54am
Bi ismillahir rahmanir raheem

assalamu alaikum

chastebeauty the rulings i gave are those of the four madhabs, this is the traditional islamic view, if you believe something other than this you are welcome to your opnion but you have no right to accuse the four madhhabs and Great scholars like Imam al Nawawi who was a mujtahid of Biddah.

If you dont know the place of the madhabs in islam what good will a hadith do you, do you have the neccesary qualafications in Usul al Fiqh to be able to derive a fatwa from it?



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Rasul Allah (sallah llahu alaihi wa sallam) said: "Whoever knows himself, knows his Lord" and whoever knows his Lord has been given His gnosis and nearness.


Posted By: rami
Date Posted: 26 March 2005 at 4:47am
Bi ismillahir rahmanir raheem

>>> To brother Rami that is one shafi'i view on female circumcision there is also another view; it isn't required and many of those who believe it is now say that has been abrogated by circumstances such as many Muslims going to extremes with what is done (the sunnipath fatwa posted has more info on this)<<<

Let us first establish the fact that it is required in the shafii madhhab, second the only reason why it is not recomended is becouse the proper practice of the required act has almost been lost. This is not a different rulling but a dispensation which a person may follow if he chooses, almost does not mean entirely and it is a general statement. It does not abrogate the Shafii decision.

I have clearly shown that 3 out of the four madhabs at least consider it adab ie courtesy, and i dont know what the maliki position is, so the matter can never be declared haram or a bidah or unislamic or any other wishfull label.


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Rasul Allah (sallah llahu alaihi wa sallam) said: "Whoever knows himself, knows his Lord" and whoever knows his Lord has been given His gnosis and nearness.


Posted By: chastebeauty
Date Posted: 26 March 2005 at 10:55pm

Salamualaykum,

It seems someone is getting me wrong here and infact I wasn't referring to u Rami in my earlier posts. When I first read this thread I only schemed through your posts but didn't digest them cos it was kind of confusing, talkless of going into details of accusing any ruling or anybody as u stated; (chastebeauty the rulings I gave are those of the four madhabs, this is the traditional Islamic view, if you believe something other than this you are welcome to your opinion but you have no right to accuse the four madhhabs and Great scholars like Imam al Nawawi who was a mujtahid of Biddah). I don�t remember this person's name talkless of accusing him.

You could have proves allowing circumcision from the madhhabs which I am just hearing for the first time yet confusing and contradicting. Usually in situation like this I rather ignore.

Secondly, As long as all they say is, circumcision is courtesy and not circumcision is fard or sunnah, from my knowledge anything practiced outside these two ( fard and sunnah) is considered Bida'a. So probably you could enlighten me more on what bida'a is in a way other than mine.  

Finally, my question was simple and straight forward; I try my best to follow Sunnah and expect every Muslim to, as I believe the prophet never left out any practice we were to follow especially an ancient practice like this. There fore they should please provide a prove where he practiced circumcision on his daughters and wives...that would really help me understand better and of course change my view, but if it�s just a culture accepted by the madhhab point of view, then Alhamdulillah I am out.

Salaam.

 



Posted By: icforumadmin
Date Posted: 26 March 2005 at 11:08pm

Salam,

To joint a poll regarding this issue, please http://www.islamicity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=256&PN=1&TPN=1 - click here .



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Best Regards & Peace,

Admin


Posted By: AhmadJoyia
Date Posted: 27 March 2005 at 8:57am

Bro Rami,

Its not me who introduced this quote "See Silsilah al-Ahadith al-Da�ifah by al-Albani, no. 1935.", but it was done by  abuayisha in her earlier posting, however, I see my mistake by not putting her comments in quotes in my own reply. Also we, or atleast I, would like to know more about true sunnah of our Prophet on the topic rather than knowing the "Big people's names" of some madhib or behind any website. All your quotes on the topic has done is to provide the final verdict, but not the evidence on which they based their view. Cheers!  



Posted By: Sophie_J
Date Posted: 27 March 2005 at 2:59pm
Asalaamu Alaykum

brother Rami I have PM'ed you on this issue the obscene articles posted by Ameena99999 describe forms of mutilation that are HARAM in all madhabs these articles have been deleted from every other Islamic forum they have been posted on in the past so I suggest you do the same inshaAllah

Sophie


Posted By: fezziwig
Date Posted: 27 March 2005 at 11:49pm

Seems to me that if god wanted your body to be thus-and-so he would have made it thus-and-so.

F

 



Posted By: rami
Date Posted: 28 March 2005 at 5:19pm
Bi ismillahir rahmanir raheem

assalamu alaikum

After discussing the issue with the head moderator we have decided the original post and those following will be removed and any further posts of such nature will be dealt with in a similar manner.

I feel the posts are inapropriate and plainly wrong in there approach towards further understanding the issue. I have taken into account the pm sister Sophie sent me but it was not entirely the basis for my decision.

I have decided to keep the posts relating to fiqh since this is a valid Islamic discussion.




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Rasul Allah (sallah llahu alaihi wa sallam) said: "Whoever knows himself, knows his Lord" and whoever knows his Lord has been given His gnosis and nearness.


Posted By: rami
Date Posted: 28 March 2005 at 7:13pm
Bi ismillahir rahmanir raheem

assalamu alaikum

chastebeauty
>>>You could have proves allowing circumcision from the madhhabs which I am just hearing for the first time yet confusing and contradicting.<<<

If you mean by contradicting that the madhhab has more than one rulling, in a madhhab there can be more than one position held by different scholars in the madhhab usually these are labeled as the major and minor positions of the madhhab meaning the majority of say the shafii madhhab agree on such and such a ruling, so this would be regarded as the stronger position while the other is the weaker. It is permisable to follow either the major or minor position 's but it is more recomended to follow the major, everything is by intention.

>>>
So probably you could enlighten me more on what bida'a is in a way other than mine.<<<

you may like to read the following article,

The Sunni Definition of Bid`a, By Dr G.F Hadad

http://www.livingislam.org/n/sdb_e.html

The Concept of Bid'a in the Islamic Shari'a
Sh. Nuh Ha Mim Keller 1995

http://www.masud.co.uk/ISLAM/nuh/bida.htm

>>>There fore they should please provide a prove where he practiced circumcision on his daughters and wives...that would really help me understand better and of course change my view, but if it�s just a culture accepted by the madhhab point of view, then Alhamdulillah I am out.<<<

Personaly i dont know much on this rulling except for what i posted, i dont know what the key proofs are since Reliance of the traveller is a book of ruilings in the shafii madhhab it does not discuss the key proofs, the author in the book said he will translate the key proofs at a latter date in a sister work titled "The Guidance of the Traveller" they are there in arabic but not translated as of yet. If you read my post from sunni path again more carefully you will see that the shaffi positions is that it is approved act but since the art has died out it is no longer practiced.

Please read what i posted again more carfully they do not contradict but complament and further explain each other.

Ahmad
>>>
Its not me who introduced this quote "See Silsilah al-Ahadith al-Da�ifah by al-Albani, no. 1935.", but it was done by  abuayisha in her earlier posting<<<

I am sorry for the mistake i didnt notice.

Everyone please use quotation marks when posting it would save a lot of confusion.

>>>rather than knowing the "Big people's names" of some madhib or behind any website.<<<

for that you will have to see a scholar who is familiar with the rullings of the shafii madhhab, i am not. The rulling i gave was not simply from a website of some madhhab it was from reliance of the traveler a book about the rullings of Imam An Nawawi A mujtahid Imam in the shafii Madhhab, i dont understand what you will do once you see what the proofs are you are not in a position to analise the rulings of a mujtahid to know how he arrived at his position.

Sophie

>>> brother Rami I have PM'ed you on this issue the obscene articles posted by Ameena99999 describe forms of mutilation that are HARAM in all madhabs these articles have been deleted from every other Islamic forum they have been posted on in the past so I suggest you do the same inshaAllah<<<

What i posted was in relation to female circumcision not mutalation, we have to make that point clear. Mutalation is haram without question but curcumcision is not.

Just a note for everyone asking to see proofs that rasull allah (sallah llahu alaihi wa sallam) practiced this act we need to understand how islamic rulings are arrived at, The quran and the sunnah are our primary sources but so are the companions of the prophet and the actions of the tabe'een.

Generaly speaking we need to learn about Usul al Fiqh "the methodolgy of how our scholars arive at rullings in islam". I am not a scholar and have a very basic understanding of the matter but i think some knowledge is required it is not as simple as finding a hadith wich clearly says dont do such and such, that is over simplistic.

Insh allah if people have the time please read

USUL AL FIQH AL ISLAMI; SOURCE METHODOLOGY IN ISLAMIC JURISPRUDENCE

http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/law/alalwani_usulalfiqh/

Imam Al Shafii played a Key role in developing this science.

There is a reason why our scholars are respected, they are smarter than we are, allah in the quran says "are those who know equal with those who dont?" he himself streses a difference between those who know and those who dont.

Fezzwig
>>>>Seems to me that if god wanted your body to be thus-and-so he would have made it thus-and-so.<<<<

by that reasoning stop cutting your hair.





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Rasul Allah (sallah llahu alaihi wa sallam) said: "Whoever knows himself, knows his Lord" and whoever knows his Lord has been given His gnosis and nearness.


Posted By: AhmadJoyia
Date Posted: 28 March 2005 at 7:54pm

"i dont understand what you will do once you see what the proofs are you are not in a position to analise the rulings of a mujtahid to know how he arrived at his position. "

Dear Bro Rami,

Without going into the details of the issue, I do admit that I am the most ignorant person in Islam. I also admit that I have very little, rather no knowledge of Islam at all. However, I also believe, that God has given me a mind to think and ponder over His creation.  To use this mind to understand Islam through my awken consciousness and not through blind faith. Just as an example, all prayers are required to be offered with full consciousness. It is for this reason, of awken consciousness, that all alcohlic beaverages were initially made unlawfull before going for rituals of prayers. Man should know what he is praying for, with all his mental faculties open and fully devoted to the rememberance of Allah. Would you still suggest me not to wish for the evidence as to how our great ulema reached at a particular conclusion? Besides, there is a difference of opinon among themselves, based upon various factors, that depends upon someone's understanding through one particular angle, or it could be ignorance on the part of a particular Alim concernign a key evidence "a parituclar hadiths" that might not be available to that Alim before making his opinion. It is in this sense, that even these  scholars of famous madhibs themselves had asked their people to throw away their opinion, if a new evidence "a sahih hadith" that contradicts their opinion is found. We also know that not all madhib were developed simultaneously; but evolved in time through the science of critical logic (Mantik) where the student had the liberty of contrasting his teacher, if he had better logical arguments consistent with the evidence from Quran and Sunnah. Hopefully, thirst of looking at the basic evidence would not be discouraged, but encouraged in this forum.



Posted By: MOCKBA
Date Posted: 29 March 2005 at 1:12am

wonder what happened to the initial two posts, especially the first lengthy experience... now it seems that it was me who generated the subject.

MOCKBA



Posted By: Nausheen
Date Posted: 29 March 2005 at 5:07am
Originally posted by MOCKBA MOCKBA wrote:

wonder what happened to the initial two posts, especially the first lengthy experience... now it seems that it was me who generated the subject.

MOCKBA

I thought you did not like them, so you got them wiped off the face of the forum 

Hope you are getting aboard



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<font color=purple>Wanu nazzilu minal Qurani ma huwa

Shafaa un wa rahmatun lil mo'mineena

wa la yaziduzzalimeena illa khasara.
[/COLOR]


Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 30 March 2005 at 3:21am

 

   Post removed by Moderator

Note: when a post is removed by the moderator, it means your input was unacceptable. Trying to repost here cannot do anygood to you.

Thank you,

Nausheen



Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 30 March 2005 at 3:40am

   Post removed by Moderator

Note: when a post is removed by the moderator, it means your input was unacceptable. Trying to repost here cannot do any good to you.

Thank you,

Nausheen



Posted By: ummziba
Date Posted: 30 March 2005 at 5:12am

ameena99999,

You can post this until the world ends, it won't change the fact that you are not describing circumcision at all, but rather mutilation.  Mutilation of the body is a sin against Allah and a worse sin when you force it upon an innocent child.

Get the facts right.

Peace, ummziba.



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Sticks and stones may break my bones, but your words...they break my soul ~


Posted By: Angel
Date Posted: 30 March 2005 at 5:48am
Originally posted by ummziba ummziba wrote:

ameena99999,

You can post this until the world ends, it won't change the fact that you are not describing circumcision at all, but rather mutilation.  Mutilation of the body is a sin against Allah and a worse sin when you force it upon an innocent child.

Get the facts right.

Peace, ummziba.

Isn't male circumcision a mutilation of the body also therefore a sin against Allah ?

I think ameena was speaking that is should be a choice not being forced upon.



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~ Our feet are earthbound, but our hearts and our minds have wings ~


Posted By: ummziba
Date Posted: 30 March 2005 at 6:47am

Angel,

I don't believe female or male circumcision is a mutilation - DONE CORRECTLY. Circumcision is the removal of part of the foreskin in males and part of the hood of the clitoris in females. 

What ameena99999 is describing is not circumcision, it is mutilation, therefore, it is wrong of her to advocate this type of thing as circumcision and especially wrong to encourage it to be done against innocent children.

To CHOOSE to have yourself or your child mutilated is plain wrong.  Advocating for others to do it is horrendous!

Peace, ummziba.



-------------
Sticks and stones may break my bones, but your words...they break my soul ~


Posted By: Angel
Date Posted: 30 March 2005 at 8:38am

Hi ameena, you sure have brought an interesting post on the subject  but the claim for female circumcision is not backed up any islamic evidence all you brought across is that under islam it should be done under medical conditions and personnel, well I should hope so even without islam.

If it is as you say, then I think if anybody is going to have circumcisions, (not that I agree with it) then it should be a personal choice with counselling just like any plastic surgery and it should in no way be forced upon, not for religion, nor because others are having it done.

And for me to have this done for the purpose to suppress sexual arousal - unwanted, is against the natural body, its a crime against the human body - the female body! We are made the way we are because God made us the way we are. To be free of sexual arousal is going against the natural order of things I believe and there is a connection of the mind, why do you think people fantasize when together or alone if mastrabating (spellings wrong) to enhance the arousal, why do you think sex therapist give out videos to help couples, there is the mind connection things here to. If you want to control your sexual arousal or suppress it, then learn to control your mind, it can be done.

Ameena, I don't know how long ago you had your circumcision done or if you had sex before it, and you being a nurse should know this, so I don't know how you can say that the West is wrong about the mind.

Anyway, you are obviously happy about having the female circumcision done and it works for you, Good then I'm happy for you. It would be interesting to hear how and why you come to have it done, and what you went through, not so much about the procedure but psychologically. I know this is a personal issue so you don't have to talk about it.  

Ameena:

Quote but it is deliberately supressed by the West - whether
you want to call it cultural imperialism, political correctness or just plain old bigotry against those of different beliefs or religion is up to you.
 
I somehow don't think its entirely all bigotry against those of different beliefs or religion, and besides if it is deliberately suppressed by the West, then I can see why, my god we are talking about what makes up the female body, this isn't some scrapping away of the skin on the male penis, we are talking about taking away a part of or full section of the woman's body, it is our reproductive and sexual organ And it is what makes a lot of women feel like a woman, to some it is like having their breast removed because of breast cancer and that it makes them feel unwomanly. You don't see or hear woman having their breast removed other than what I just mentioned above.
 
Quote In the past female circumcision was considered
optional, but many (both ordinary people and religious scholars) now think that it should be mandatory because of the West's anti-Islamic predjudice.
 
Now that would be a mistake! A really bad move!
You don't do that because of someone's anti islamic predjudice whether its from the west or not!
You leave it as optional, a choice but in no way should it be mandatory because of some anti whatever!!
 
Quote With external genital tissue already removed, there was far less need for episiotomies.
 
I don't know what you know here but episiotomies has nothing to do with the external gential tissue, you being a nurse should know this, its got to do with the prenuim (sp?) the stretch of skin from the point of the vagina to the anus, that can be solved by putting lotion to soften the skin to prevent tearing. The only reason why the tearing happens and the episiotomies are performed to control bad tearing.
 
Quote Caesarain births were reduced. Labour is generally shorter and easier in circumcised women and healing of the birth canal and the surrounding region much easier.
 
This maybe true but its not hardly a fact to use or push for having circumicisions, there many uncircumicided women who experience such things. And I might point out that using caesarin statistics nowdays is useless because many women are opting out of vaginal births thru choice.
 
 
Quote Intercourse is far more pleasurable because the whole of the sexual act is made spiritual in nature and focuses entirely on intercourse with your husband.
 
I somehow don't agree with this and feel uncomfortable with it, whether you have circumcision done or not, intercourse with your husband should be made spiritual in nature. You are claiming that having female circumcision done is more superior than non circumcisied women, and that to feel spiritual in nature through intercourse then you ought to have it done - a push towards having it done, something I do not agree with.  
Have you had sex before to make this claim, which of course would be only your experience so you cannot speak for all.

Quote How can it be OK for Western women to have breast surgery, nose jobs or (dangerous) lipo-suction - all in the name of aesthetics, but it's not
OK for a Muslim woman to change her body?
 
I think you read too much into it here but Perhaps it is in the qur'an not to change appearance, and believe me it is a change in appearance, just because you don't see it.
 
I don't know this isn't some nose job or lipo-suction! or for aesthetics! This is female circumicision we are taking about.
 
Quote Sixth, it is well known in countries as far afield as Indonesia and Malasyia to Egypt, that girls who have been circumcised do better in school and university.
 
Oh come on, you don't believe this do you ? I hear similar stories in the west, if I had a dollar for each one I'll probably be a millionaire by now.
You don't think that other factors come in to it?
 
Quote How can it be that the West claims to champion women's rights but tries to deny Muslim girls the right
to a better education, something that is closely correlated with the practice of female circumcision in Muslim countries?
 
Oh come on, your claim about the west here in this point is ridiclous! what proof do you have ? And what proof do you have the female circumcision is only responsible for girls doing better in their education?
I honestly think this is a false claim to push for female circumcision.
 

Angel.



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~ Our feet are earthbound, but our hearts and our minds have wings ~



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