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Jesus' Great Commandments: The Bridge?

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Category: Religion - Islam
Forum Name: Interfaith Dialogue
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Topic: Jesus' Great Commandments: The Bridge?
Posted By: YieldedOne
Subject: Jesus' Great Commandments: The Bridge?
Date Posted: 05 February 2011 at 8:01pm
Here's my thought.  I'll try to make it simple as possible.
 
One thing that both Muslims and Christians agree on is this: Jesus ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus_in_Islam - Nabi Issa ) is a prophet of God who is "divinely chosen to spread God's message."
 
Basically both Christians and Muslims venerate Jesus as a messenger of God who reveals truth from God.
 
Next...
 
Both Christians and Muslims venerate the Torah.  From http://www.cnn.com/2010/OPINION/09/09/qadri.quran/index.html - this article ...
 
"No true Muslim of the world can even think of any blasphemous act against the Bible.
According to a tradition of Abu-Dawud, once the Prophet Muhammad, peace be upon him, went to settle a dispute within a Jewish tribe and a special mat was set for the Prophet to sit upon, but when the book of Torah was brought by the people, the Prophet Muhammad, peace be upon him, stood up in respect of the Torah and placed the book on the mat which was placed for him and he himself sat on the ground."
 
Both Christians and Muslims are "people of the Book" in this way, reverencing the Torah as divine truth.
 
Now...Matthew 22:34-40...
 
But when the Pharisees heard that he had silenced the Sadducees, they gathered together. And one of them, a lawyer, asked him a question to test him. �Teacher, which is the great commandment in the Law?� And he said to him, �You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.  This is the great and first commandment. And a second is like it: You shall love your neighbor as yourself. On these two commandments depend all the Law and the Prophets.�
 
Here, Jesus is quoting two things from...well, now...the Torah.  Deuteronomy 6:4 and Leviticus 19:18.
 
So, you have a divinely-called prophet of God who reiterates two commandments spoken in the Torah...and saying that  "on these two commandments depend all the Law and the Prophets."  Hmm...
 
Now, if this is the case, doesn't this mean that both Christians AND Muslims would hold the Great Commandments to be RELIGIOUSLY BINDING upon them because they have the SAME PROPHET communicating the SAME TRUTH from the SAME SOURCE in both religious contexts?  Neither Muslims nor Christians would say that the Prophet Jesus who speaks for God should be ignored or disobeyed...especially when He is a Prophet who is specifically referencing the Torah.
 
Bottom line: It would seem that the importance and priority of Great Commandments spoken by the Prophet of God, Jesus, would be an ESSENTIAL COMMON GROUND between Islam and Christianity.  Neither Christians NOR Muslims can ignore Jesus' re-emphasis of Torah commandments WITHOUT implicitly denying his authority as divine prophet.
 
So...if we were to get a Muslim imam and a Eastern Orthodox bishop...and talk about Jesus (Issa) emphasizing the Torah-based commandments of loving God with all of oneself and loving the neighbor as oneself...there really couldn't be that much difference on THAT issue.  They would BOTH have to say that those commandments are AUTHORITATIVE to guide their lives.
 
Does that make sense? 
 
This is what I think is the essential message of the Prophet Jesus:
 
Human beings are to express singular worship of and submission to the One Uncreated Creator by works of loving-kindness and compassion to ourselves and others...and thanksgiving, adoration and glorification to the Creator. In this, we are also to consecrate ourselves and be holy, compassionate, merciful, and loving because our Creator is holy, compassionate, merciful and loving.
 
Any and all thoughts welcome!



Replies:
Posted By: YieldedOne
Date Posted: 06 February 2011 at 5:15am

The idea above is not necessarily new.   Check it out.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Common_Word_Between_Us_and_You - A Common Word Between Us and You


Posted By: YieldedOne
Date Posted: 06 February 2011 at 5:10pm
Is all this ok, moderators and admins?  I hope so... Smile


Posted By: YieldedOne
Date Posted: 07 February 2011 at 6:22am
I think that there are two bedrock foundations undergirding the  thoughts above  that are specifically linked to the Quranic texts...

1) Authority of Moses as Prophet of God and "ground" of the Torah.

2) Jesus (Isa) as God-sanctioned faithful "brother" within the "Children of Israel" and Prophet of God to the same.
 
I just can't see how a knowledgeable, faithful Muslim or Christian could disavow the two major beliefs above. 
 
From the Quranic perspective, Surah 61:6-7 demonstates both of these points this amply...
 
"And remember what Jesus, son of Mary, had said: "O children of Israel, I am indeed a Messenger sent to you by Allah, confirming the Torah which has come before me and giving the good news of a Messenger who shall come after me, whose name shall be Ahmad."

From what I understand, Moses as Prophet is a MAJOR Quranic ground for the authenticity of Muhammad. To deny the Authority of Moses would be implicitly to deny that Muhammed was a "prophet like unto Moses" and the given authority as such.   That's unacceptable. 

Next, Jesus (Isa)...as Jewish "brother" (Martin Buber), a covenantal member of the "Children of Israel" to whom the Torah was given by God...is directly asserted in the Quran to be an authentic Prophet and Messenger sent by God with direct revelation of the Torah's truth from God himself. 

From the orthodox Christian perspective (and Jewish, too), the Authority of Moses and the Torah is taken for granted.  As is Jesus being a member of the "Children of Israel" as well as Prophet sent by God to those "Children."
 
Now...there are obvious differences...and we should say that straight out.  We know that Muslims and Christians will legitimately differ on the fulness of what Jesus' relationship with God actually was. Obviously. I really don't think that's gonna change. As long as the Quran specifically speaks against belief in a Trinity, a  faithful Muslim that believes what Muhammed says about that is NOT gonna be fully accepting of the Christian Eucharist--an essential aspect of orthodox Christianity--and it's Trinitarian implications. As long as the Quran specifically denies that Jesus is the Son of God, an orthodox Christian is not gonna be fully accepting of the Quran as genuine, authoritative revelation of God...nor will they fully accept the proclaimer of such (Muhammad) to be "from God" given http://bible.cc/1_john/2-23.htm - 1 John 2:23 .

At the same time...

Neither Christians NOR Muslims can deny the Authority of Moses as Prophet of God and "ground" of the Torah and Jesus (Isa) as God-sanctioned faithful "brother" within the "Children of Israel" and Prophet of God to the same.

and from that...

--The http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shema_Yisrael - Shema (Deuteronomy 6:4-9)
-- http://www.gnpcb.org/esv/search/?q=Leviticus+19 - Leviticus 19:9-18
--The belief that Allah is Compassionate, Merciful, Gracious, and Loving, (per the Quranic and Biblical texts stating such)
--The belief that Jesus proclaimed 1-3 as a faithful messenger and servant of Allah per the Quran.
 
Again, any thoughts are welcome with this.    Have fun with it!  LOL


Posted By: YieldedOne
Date Posted: 08 February 2011 at 11:10am
Hmmm...doesn't seem to be much interest yet. Smile  Say admins and mods, you all game?  I'm really looking for some feedback on the ideas.  Are they mistaken?  Unclear?  I'm open to changing my perspective as needed.  It's all about growing in understanding!
 
Anyone? Big%20smile


Posted By: islamispeace
Date Posted: 08 February 2011 at 8:40pm
Hi YieldedOne.  I think what you have said makes sense but it is nothing new.  There are many similarities between Islam and Christianity.  No one will deny that.  The problem is that the differences are in the most important issues, such as the status of Jesus.  Let's face it.  Similarities in accepting the authority of Moses (pbuh) as a prophet or agreeing that Allah is merciful and loving is trumped by the differences is the way we look at Jesus (pbuh).  Christians worships Jesus as God.  This is blasphemy to Muslims.  Conversely, that Muslims deny Jesus as God is blasphemous to Christians.  These are grave differences and they unfortunately trump the similarities.


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Say: "Truly, my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my life and my death, are (all) for Allah, the Cherisher of the Worlds. (Surat al-Anaam: 162)



Posted By: YieldedOne
Date Posted: 09 February 2011 at 6:31am

Thanks very much, Islamispeace.  I really appreciate the response.  Much! Clap 

You said:
I think what you have said makes sense but it is nothing new.  There are many similarities between Islam and Christianity.  No one will deny that.  The problem is that the differences are in the most important issues, such as the status of Jesus.  Let's face it.  Similarities in accepting the authority of Moses (pbuh) as a prophet or agreeing that Allah is merciful and loving is trumped by the differences is the way we look at Jesus (pbuh).  Christians worships Jesus as God.  This is blasphemy to Muslims.  Conversely, that Muslims deny Jesus as God is blasphemous to Christians.  These are grave differences and they unfortunately trump the similarities.

I'm aware of the grave differences, and frankly, they'll probably be here to stay.  I mentioned those as well.  However, my issue is the issue of faith-grounded "neighborliness" between the faithful members of the "People(s) of the Book."

My main point is this:
For any people who believe Isa, Son of Mary, is the God-authenticated messenger, servant, and prophet of God who "confirms the Torah" by speaking truth about it's core affirmations, they are faith-bound to "neighborliness" to others because of what Isa affirms from the Torah.


From the orthodox Christian perspective, the Great Commandments of loving God with all the heart, soul, mind, and strength...and loving the "neighbor" (any and all other human beings) as oneself.  From the Christian standpoint, both Paul and Jesus affirm that loving the neighbor as the self (as conceptualized in Leviticus 19:9-18) encapuslates the core meaning of the Torah and the Prophets.  That means REGARDLESS of whatever "blasphemous" belief a person may have, orthodox Christians are faith-bound, by allegience to God's Messiah and Prophet Jesus as he reified the central truths of the Torah, to love the Muslim as themselves and in so doing, demonstrate love for Jesus' God.  If a Christian believes that Jesus is a genuine "messenger" from God and his chosen Messiah, then they cannot just treat Muslim faithful in any kind of mean or unjust way.  Why?  Because they are "NEIGHBORS."  If I saw any supposedly self-reflective, knowledgeable Christian that did any thing other than love their Muslim "neighbors" as themselves in and through loving God, I would say that they were being quite inconsistent with their faith in Jesus and his proclaimed Truth.  There's absolutely no denying that for Christians.

From what I've seen of Islamic sources, there is a definite reverence of the "original" Torah and Jesus as a "confirmer" of that Torah.  Here is a quote I found from Sohib N. Sultan's http://www.amazon.com/Quran-Sayings-Prophet-Muhammad-Illuminations/dp/1594732221 - The Qur'an and Sayings of Prophet Muhammad: Selections Annotated & Explained   on page 24, where there was comment on http://quran.com/3 - Surah 3:3-4 ...

The Torah of Moses and the Gospel of Jesus are mentioned here as scriptures that were sent by God for the purpose of guidance.  As such, Muslims are required, by faith, to believe in the unaltered, original Torah and Gospel as books of revelation.  However, emphasis must be placed on the word "original" because Muslims believe that the Torah and Gospel were altered by the hands of men in later generations.

He's talking about some means of " http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tahrif - tahrif " of the Torah that's been taken to supposedly obscure things in it, right?  Well, I think that's a major question I have: Is the message of Leviticus 19:9-18) one of the things that has been claimed to have been "corrupted" by Jews or Christians? Is there any Islamic authoritative source that basically says that the subject matter is Leviticus 19:9-18 of the Torah is "corrupted" and is therefore not applicable for Muslim faith? There is no way that the Torah can just be totally thrown out of hand.  I've not seen anything that says that absolutely every verse in the Torah is unusable for guidance by Allah.  (If there is such a thing, I would love for you brothers and sisters to show me such.  that'd be so helpful! Wink)

It appears to me that if there is no justifiable reason to "throw out" Leviticus 19:9-18 (and it's relatively simple injunctions about not stealing, not lying, not promoting injustice, etc), then it would seem that self-reflective knowledgeable Muslims are just as faith-bound by that Torah-truth as Christians are. 

Let me place Leviticus 19 stuff here...
 
�You shall not steal; you shall not deal falsely; you shall not lie to one another.  You shall not swear by my name falsely, and so profane the name of your God: I am the Lord."
 
�You shall not oppress your neighbor or rob him. The wages of a hired servant shall not remain with you all night until the morning. You shall not curse the deaf or put a stumbling block before the blind, but you shall fear your God: I am the Lord."
 
�You shall do no injustice in court. You shall not be partial to the poor or defer to the great, but in righteousness shall you judge your neighbor. You shall not go around as a slanderer among your people, and you shall not stand up against the life of your neighbor: I am the Lord."
 
�You shall not hate your brother in your heart, but you shall reason frankly with your neighbor, lest you incur sin because of him.  You shall not take vengeance or bear a grudge against the sons of your own people, but you shall love your neighbor as yourself: I am the Lord."
 
The principles in these seem fairly straightforward.  Is there any type of asserted "tahrif" in this Torah teaching that disavows it from Muslim faith?
According to Wikipedia, Amin Ahsan Islahi writes about four types of tahrif:
 
1. To deliberately interpret something in a manner that is totally opposite to the intention of the author. To distort the pronunciation of a word to such an extent that the word changes completely.
 
2. To add to or delete a sentence or discourse in a manner that completely distorts the original meaning. For example, according to Islam, the Jews altered the incident of the migration of the Prophet Abraham in a manner that no one could prove that Abraham had any relationship with the Ka�bah.
 
3. To translate a word that has two meanings in the meaning that is totally against the context. For example the Hebrew word that is equivalent to the Arabic �ابن� was translated as �son� whereas it also meant �servant� and �slave�.
 
4. To raise questions about something that is absolutely clear in order to create uncertainty about it, or to change it completely.
 
Do you, dear readers,  believe that any of these things are going on with respect to the core messages of Leviticus 19:9-18?
 
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Sidenote: Can you imagine what interfaith discourse between Muslims and Christians would be like if we treated each other like "neighbors" as stated above?  It would revolutionize the conversation, I believe!


Posted By: YieldedOne
Date Posted: 09 February 2011 at 6:36am

I'll say this flat-out:

The differences in the way Muslims and Christians look at the fulness of Jesus' relationship to God does NOT "override" Jesus' prophetic, Torah-affriming call to "neighborliness" to the other.
 
I thought Surah 4:36 was interesting...
 
Worship Allah and associate nothing with Him, and to parents do good, and to relatives, orphans, the needy, the near neighbor, the neighbor farther away, the companion at your side, the traveler, and those whom your right hands possess. Indeed, Allah does not like those who are self-deluding and boastful.
 
From the commentary I've seen on this passage, the "neighbor farther away" refers to non-family, to the stranger.
 
Here's a section from " http://www.acommonword.com/index.php?lang=en&page=option1 - A Common Word Between Us and You ", written by Muslims...
 

LOVE OF THE NEIGHBOUR IN ISLAM

          There are numerous injunctions in Islam about the necessity and paramount importance of love for�and mercy towards�the neighbour. Love of the neighbour is an essential and integral part of faith in God and love of God because in Islam without love of the neighbour there is no true faith in God and no righteousness. The Prophet Muhammad r said: �None of you has faith until you love for your brother what you love for yourself.� #_edn18 - xviii And: �None of you has faith until you love for your neighbour what you love for yourself.� #_edn19 - xix

            However, empathy and sympathy for the neighbour�and even formal prayers� are not enough. They must be accompanied by generosity and self-sacrifice. God says in the Holy Qur�an:

It is not righteousness that ye turn your faces #_edn20 - xx to the East and the West; but righteous is he who believeth in God and the Last Day and the angels and the Scripture and the prophets; and giveth wealth, for love of Him, to kinsfolk and to orphans and the needy and the wayfarer and to those who ask, and to set slaves free; and observeth proper worship and payeth the poor-due. And those who keep their treaty when they make one, and the patient in tribulation and adversity and time of stress. Such are they who are sincere. Such are the pious. (Al-Baqarah 2:177)

            And also:

Ye will not attain unto righteousness until ye expend of that which ye love. And whatsoever ye expend, God is Aware thereof. (Aal �Imran, 3:92)

          Without giving the neighbour what we ourselves love, we do not truly love God or the neighbour.



Posted By: YieldedOne
Date Posted: 09 February 2011 at 12:47pm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus_in_Islam -
Scripture given to Jesus

Muslims believe that God revealed to Jesus a new scripture, the Injīl (gospel), while also declaring the truth of the previous revelations � the Tawrat (Torah) and the Zabur (Psalms). Descended 600 years after Jesus' life on earth, the Qur'an speaks favorably of the Injīl, which it describes as a scripture that fills the hearts of its followers with meekness and piety. It is argued that the Qur'an says that the original Biblical message has been distorted or corrupted (tahrif) over time. In Chapter 3, verse 3, and Chapter 5, verses 46-47, of the Qur'an, the revelation of the Gospel is mentioned:

It is He Who sent down to thee (step by step), in truth, the Book, confirming what went before it; and He sent down the Law (of Moses) and the Gospel (of Jesus) before this, as a guide to mankind, and He sent down the criterion (of judgment between right and wrong)

And We caused Jesus, son of Mary, to follow in their footsteps, confirming that which was (revealed) before him in the Torah, and We bestowed on him the Gospel wherein is guidance and a light, confirming that which was (revealed) before it in the Torah - a guidance and an admonition unto those who ward off (evil).

Let the people of the Gospel judge by what Allah hath revealed therein. If any do fail to judge by (the light of) what Allah hath revealed, they are (no better than) those who rebel.

I truly believe that "new scripture" which also declared the truth of previous revelations including the Torah...is right here...

http://bible.cc/john/15-17.htm - "A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another: just as I have loved you, you also are to love one another."

"
This is my command: Love each other
."

Same as it ever was....same as it ever was...same as it ever was...same as it ever was...  (David Byrne, baby...)

Another version of "Love your neighbor as yourself."


Posted By: YieldedOne
Date Posted: 09 February 2011 at 1:02pm
Not trying to be campy or anything, but deep in my heart I truly believe that decent focus on this--from both Christians and Muslims--would help interfaith dialogue tremendously.  And both Christians and Muslims can do so with a "clear conscience" religiously speaking.  When Christians and Muslims "love one another" as "neighbors", they KNOW they are doing the will of Allah spoken clearly by Isa, messenger and prophet of God.
 
What say you, Islamispeace?


Posted By: YieldedOne
Date Posted: 09 February 2011 at 10:28pm
I posted this on another thread here, but I think it makes more sense over here.  It just so happened that I saw the commentary section from Mansoor ali over there... Here's http://www.islamicity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=17582 - the link there to see what Mansoor ali said.  Here's the posting...
 
-----------------------------------------------------
 
Monsoor ali said: (Bold and emphasis mine)
 
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Quran says in Surah 3:1-4

(3:1) Alif, Lam, Mim.

(3:2) Allah, the Ever-Living, the Self-Subsisting, Who sustains the entire order of the universe - there is no God but He.

(3:3) He has revealed this Book to you, setting forth the truth and confirming the earlier Books, and earlier He revealed the Torah and Gospel

(3:4) for the guidance of mankind;1 and He has also revealed the Criterion (to distinguish truth from falsehood). A severe chastisement lies in store for those who deny the signs of Allah. Allah is All-Mighty; He is the Lord of Retribution.

Commentary by http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abul_Ala_Maududi - Maulana Maududi

1. The Torah is generally taken to signify the first five books of the Old Testament, and the Injil (Gospel), to mean the four Gospels of the New Testament, even though those books form a part of it. This has sometimes caused people to wonder if these books were indeed revealed by God. If they are accepted as revealed, one may wonder if the Qur'an really verifies their contents as this verse says. The fact is, however, that the Torah is not identical with the first five books of the Old Testament even though those books form a part of the Torah. Likewise, the Injil is not identical with the four Gospels of the New Testament.

The fact is that the Torah, in the Qur'anic usage, signifies the revelations made to Moses (peace be on him), in about forty years, from the time he was appointed a Prophet until his death. These include the Ten Commandments', which were handed over to him inscribed on stone tablets. Moses took down the rest of the revealed injunctions and handed over one copy to each of the twelve tribes of Israel, and one copy to the Levites for safe keeping. It is this book which was known as the Torah and it existed until the first destruction of Jerusalem. The copy entrusted to the Levites was put beside the Ark of the Covenant along with the Commandment tablets, and the Israelites knew it as the Torah. The Jews, however, neglected the Book: during the reign of Josiah the King of Judah the Temple of Solomon was under repair and the high priest, Hilkiah, chanced to find the Book lying in the construction area. He gave it to the King's secretary, Shaphan, who in turn took it to the King as if it were a strange find (see 2 Kings 22: 8-13).

Hence, when the Babylonian King, Nebuchadnezzar, conquered Jerusalem and razed it and the Temple of Solomon to the ground, the Israelites lost for ever the few original copies of the Torah which they possessed, and which they had consigned to obscurity. At the time of Ezra the priest, some Israelites returned from captivity in Babylon, and when Jerusalem was rebuilt the entire history of Israel, which now comprises the first seventeen books of the Old Testament, was recorded by Ezra with the assistance of some other elders of the community. Four of these books, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers and Deuteronomy, consist of a biographical narrative of Moses. In this biography those verses of the Torah available to Ezra and the other elders are also recorded and in the contexts in which they were revealed. The present Torah, therefore, comprises those fragments of the original book which are interspersed throughout the biography of Moses (composed in the manner described above).

In locating these fragments of the original Torah there are certain expressions which help us. These are interspersed between the different pieces of biographical narration and usually open with words such as: 'Then the Lord said to Moses', and 'Moses said, the Lord your God commands you.' These expressions, then, are fragments of the original Torah. When the biographical narration re-commences, however, we can be sure that the fragment of the true Torah has concluded. Wherever authors and editors of the Bible have added anything of their own accord, by way of either elaboration or elucidation, it has become very difficult for an ordinary reader to distinguish the original from the explanatory additions. Those with insight into Divine Scripture, however, do have the capacity to distinguish between the original revealed fragments and the later, human interpolations.

It is these scattered fragments of the original revealed Book which the Qur'an terms as the Torah, and it is these which it confirms. When these fragments are compared with the Qur'an, there is no difference between the two as regards the fundamental teachings. Whatever differences exist relate to legal matters and are of secondary importance. Even today a careful reader can appreciate that the Torah and the Qur'an have sprung from one and the same Divine source.

Likewise, Injil signifies the inspired orations and utterances of Jesus (peace be on him), which he delivered during the last two or three years of his life in his capacity as a Prophet. There are no certain means by which we can definitively establish whether or not his statements were recorded during his lifetime. It is possible that some people took notes of them and that some followers committed them to memory. After a period of time, however, several treatises on the life of Jesus were written. The authors of these treatises recorded, in connection with the biographical account, those sayings of his which they had received from the previous generation of co-religionists, in the form of either oral traditions or written notes about events in his life. As a result the Gospels of Matthew, Mark, Luke and John are not identical with the Injil. Rather, the Injil consists of those statements by Jesus which form part of these Gospels. Unfortunately we have no means of distinguishing the fragments of the original Injil from the pieces written by the authors themselves. All we can say is that only those sections explicitly attributed to Jesus, for example in statements such as: 'And Jesus said' and 'And Jesus taught', constitute the true Injil. It is the totality of such fragments which is designated as the Injil by the Qur'an, and it is the teachings contained in these fragments that the Qur'an confirms. If these fragments are put together and compared with the teachings of the Qur'an one notices very few discrepancies between the two, and any discrepancies that are found can be resolved easily by unbiased reflection.

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YieldedOne:
In terms of this particular commentary, I would submit that http://www.gnpcb.org/esv/search/?q=Deut+6 - Deuteronomy 6:4-6 and http://www.gnpcb.org/esv/search/?q=Leviticus+19 - Leviticus 19:9-18 are good candididates for authentic Torat and Injeel material, given this description. They seem to fulfill all the criteria.

"And the Lord spoke to Moses, saying...": Leviticus 19:1

�Now this is the commandment, the statutes and the rules that the Lord your God commanded me to teach you, that you may do them in the land to which you are going over, to possess it: Deuteronomy 6:1

But when the Pharisees heard that he had silenced the Sadducees, they gathered together. And one of them, a lawyer, asked him a question to test him.  �Teacher, which is the great commandment in the Law?� And he (Jesus) said to him, �You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.  This is the great and first commandment.  And a second is like it: You shall love your neighbor as yourself. On these two commandments depend all the Law and the Prophets.�:  Matthew 22:34-40



Posted By: islamispeace
Date Posted: 10 February 2011 at 4:48pm
Hi yieldedone.  Boy, you really have a lot to say!  Smile

I pretty much agree with everything you have written and if I understand you correctly, your main point is that there is no reason for Christians and Muslims to be neighborly with each other.  Am I right?  If so, then I agree wholeheartedly!  There is no reason why Christian and Muslim can't get along.   But then, there is no reason why Christian and Hindu or Muslim and Buddhist can't get along either.  Even though our faiths may be different in many ways, some which are too important to set aside, that does not mean we cannot act kindly towards each other.  No one here, and especially myself, would disagree with such an assessment.


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Say: "Truly, my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my life and my death, are (all) for Allah, the Cherisher of the Worlds. (Surat al-Anaam: 162)



Posted By: YieldedOne
Date Posted: 10 February 2011 at 10:27pm

Islamispeace:
Boy, you really have a lot to say!

Yeah.  I guess I have mania when it comes to these kinds of subjects. Ha!  LOL  And much thanks for taking the time to really engage it.  Kudos!


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Islamispeace:
I pretty much agree with everything you have written and if I understand you correctly, your main point is that there is no reason for Christians and Muslims [not] to be neighborly with each other.  Am I right?  If so, then I agree wholeheartedly!

I'm glad there's agreement!  At the same time, I'm actually stating something a lot stronger than that.  My point is not merely there there's no religious reason for not being neighborly. My main point is that orthodox Christians and orthodox Muslims are absolutely committed--by FAITH in their own Holy Books and obedience to the Torat/Injeel teaching of the Holy Prophet and Messenger of God, Jesus/Isa--to showing "neighborliness" to each other. I want to say this in the strongest possible terms: if what's been said is accepted, then Christians and Muslims cannot fully be in "submission" to God unless they love their neighbors as themselves per faithful obedience to Jesus/Isa's re-affirmation of Torah of Moses.  Doing "neighborliness" to the other is essential to proper exercise of Christian and Muslim faith.  For Christians and Muslims to refuse to "love the neighbor as the self" --for whatever reason--is to directly contradict God's will as declared by God's Prophet and Messenger, Jesus/Isa. It is to willfully transgress Allah's revealed commandment for human beings.  That should be a big no-no for a person of genuine faith...whether Muslim or Christian.

Basically, I'm saying that a person can't be a fully-faithful, orthodox Muslim or Christian without obeying Jesus/Isa's teaching about "loving the neighbor as oneself".   What do you think about that statement, IslamisPeace?  Agree? Disagree?



Posted By: YieldedOne
Date Posted: 10 February 2011 at 10:49pm

'Now I have come to you with Wisdom, and in order to make clear to you some of the (points) on which you dispute. Therefore, fear God and obey me. God, He is my Lord and your Lord, so worship Him -- this is a Straight Way.'
The Words of Jesus/Isa in Surah 43:63-64



Posted By: YieldedOne
Date Posted: 11 February 2011 at 7:09am

In the thread, http://www.islamicity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=17363 - "Fundamental Articles of Faith", samirfaithful posted some material from From http://www.amazon.com/Islam-Focus-Hammudah-Abd-Al-Ati/dp/0915957744#_ - Hammudat Abd Al-Ati's "Islam in Focus".   Among these were 3 I thought very important to this discussion...

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The true, faithful Muslim believes in the following principal articles of faith:

1. He believes in One God, Supreme and Eternal, Infinite and Mighty, Merciful and Compassionate, Creator and Provider. This belief, in order to be effective, requires complete trust and hope in God, submission to His Will and reliance on His aid. It secures man's dignity and saves him from fear and despair, from guilt and confusion. The reader is invited to see the meaning of Islam as explained above.

2. He believes in all the messengers of God without any discrimination among them. Every known nation had a warner or messenger from God. These messengers were great teachers of the good and true champions of the right. They were chosen by God to teach mankind and deliver His Divine message. They were sent at different times of history and every known nation had one messenger or more. During certain periods two or more messengers were sent by God at the same time to the same nation. The Holy Qur'an mentions the names of twenty-five of them, and the Muslim believes in them all and accepts them as authorized messengers of God. They were, with the exception of Muhammad, known as "national" or local messengers. But their message, their religion, was basically the same and was called ISLAM, because it came from One and the Same Source, namely, God, to serve one and the same purpose, and that is to guide humanity to the Straight Path of God. All the messengers with no exception whatsoever were mortals, human beings, endowed with Divine revelation, and appointed by God to perform certain tasks. Among them Muhammad stands as the Last Messenger and the crowning glory of the foundation of prophethood. This is not an arbitrary attitude, nor is it just a convenient belief. Like all the other Islamic beliefs, it is an authentic and logical truth. Also, it may be useful to mention here the names of some of the great messengers like Noah and Abraham, Ishmael and Moses, Jesus and Muhammad, may the peace and blessings of God be upon them all. The Qur�an commands the Muslims thus:

We believe in God, and the revelation given to us, and to Abraham, Ishmael, Isaac, Jacob and the Tribes; and that which was given to Moses and Jesus, and that which was given to all prophets from their Lord. We make no discrimination between one and another of them, and we bow to God (2:136, cf. 3:84; 4:163-165; 6:84-87).


3. The true Muslim believes, as a result of article two, in all the scriptures and revelations of God. They were the guiding light which the messengers received to show their respective peoples the Right Path of God. In the Qur�an a special reference is made to the books of Abraham, Moses, David and Jesus. But long before the revelation of the Qur�an to Muhammad some of those books and revelations had been lost or corrupted, others forgotten, neglected, or concealed. The only authentic and complete book of God in existence today is the Qur�an. In principle, the Muslim believes in the previous books and revelations. (YO's Note: The Torat and the Injeel) But where are their complete and original versions? They could be still at the bottom of the Dead Sea, and there may be more Scrolls to be discovered. Or perhaps more information about them will become available when the Christian and Jewish archaeologists reveal to the public the complete original findings of their continued excavations in the Holy Land. For the Muslim, there is no problem of that kind. The Qur�an is in his hand complete and authentic. Nothing of it is missing and no more of it is expected. Its authenticity is beyond doubt, and no serious scholar or thinker has ventured to question its genuineness. The Qur�an was made so by God Who revealed it and made it incumbent upon Himself to protect it against interpolation and corruption of all kinds. Thus it is given to the Muslims as the standard or criterion by which all the other books are judged. So whatever agrees with the Qur�an is accepted as Divine truth, and whatever differs from the Qur�an is either rejected or suspended. God says: 'Verily We have, without doubt, sent down the Qur�an, and We will assuredly guard it� (15: 9; cf. 2:75- 79; 5: 1 3-14, 41, 45, 47; 6:91 ; 41:43).


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Yielded One's thoughts:
If it is indeed true that http://www.gnpcb.org/esv/search/?q=Deut+6 - Deuteronomy 6:4-6 and http://www.gnpcb.org/esv/search/?q=Leviticus+19 - Leviticus 19:9-18 are good candididates for authentic Torat and Injeel material (according to the specifications of the Maulana Maududi commentary mentioned earlier in this thread), then the "true Muslim" (from Abd Al-Ati's perspective) MUST believe in those passages as genuine revelation from Allah and live them out faithfully. 
 
See what I mean?


Posted By: YieldedOne
Date Posted: 11 February 2011 at 9:53am
Part of why I think this is important:

http://religion.blogs.cnn.com/2011/02/10/my-take-why-egypts-christians-are-excited-but-nervous/ - http://religion.blogs.cnn.com/2011/02/10/my-take-why-egypts-christians-are-excited-but-nervous/

and...

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-12407793 - http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-12407793

There is an EXCELLENT OPPORTUNITY here right now to promote the spirit of " http://www.acommonword.com/index.php?lang=en&page=option1 - A Common Word Between Us and You  "...but we've got to proclaim this truth while the window of opportunity is open!



Posted By: islamispeace
Date Posted: 11 February 2011 at 11:52am
Quote Basically, I'm saying that a person can't be a fully-faithful, orthodox Muslim or Christian without obeying Jesus/Isa's teaching about "loving the neighbor as oneself".   What do you think about that statement, IslamisPeace?  Agree? Disagree?


Yes, I agree.  You are absolutely right.   


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Say: "Truly, my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my life and my death, are (all) for Allah, the Cherisher of the Worlds. (Surat al-Anaam: 162)



Posted By: YieldedOne
Date Posted: 11 February 2011 at 11:02pm

Thanks, mods.  Big%20smile



Posted By: YieldedOne
Date Posted: 12 February 2011 at 1:31pm
So, my brothers and sisters, what is the best means by which to disseminate these truths in our own spheres of influence, whatever they may be.  I'd like to put some practical "legs" to this.  Shouldn't this be taught whenever Muslims teach about who Isa is and what he taught?  I know it should be that way with Christian teaching (even though it isn't far too often!).  How does this apply in general Muslim/Christian relationships?  How does this work out in current religious dialogue between the groups?  Stuff like that.


Posted By: YieldedOne
Date Posted: 13 February 2011 at 7:30am
Ok.  I'm trying to pare this down a bit.  Make it such that the argument can be concisely stated.  Pretty much two paragraphs.  Here goes nuthin...
 
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Major Point:
Qur'anically speaking, a person cannot be a true, faithful Muslim without obeying Jesus/Isa's Torah-Injeel teaching about "loving the neighbor as oneself"
 
Discussion of Major Point:
According to http://www.islamicity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=17363 - Hammudat Abd Al-Ati's summary of the fundamental articles of Islamic faith --found in his work " http://www.amazon.com/Islam-Focus-Hammudah-Abd-Al-Ati/dp/0915957744#_ - Islam in Focus "---true, faithful Muslims are obligated by their faith to believe what can be reasonably discerned as authentic, uncorrupted Torah (Torat) and Gospel (Injeel) teaching from the Holy Books of the "people of the Book", namely Jews and Christians.  This is explicitly affirmed within the Qur'an.  (Surahs http://quran.com/2 - 2:136 , with cross referencing of http://quran.com/3 - 3:1-4 ;  http://quran.com/3 - 3:84 ; http://quran.com/4 - 4:163-165 ; http://quran.com/6 - 6:84-87 .)  Moreover, true Muslims are to fully obey the divinely revealed teaching of God's Messenger and Prophet, Isa/Jesus ( http://quran.com/43 - Surah 43:63-64 ), as Jesus' teaching was "confirming the Torah" which antedated him. ( http://quran.com/61 - Surah 61:6-7
 
Given all this, if it is true that http://www.gnpcb.org/esv/search/?q=Deut+6 - Deuteronomy 6:4-6 and http://www.gnpcb.org/esv/search/?q=Leviticus+19 - Leviticus 19:9-18 (The Great Commandments of Jesus ala http://www.gnpcb.org/esv/search/?q=Matthew+22 - Matthew 22:34-40 ) are good candididates for authentic Torat and Injeel material--per meeting the specifications of http://www.islamicity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=17582 - accepted Islamic commentaries , such as those produced by http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abul_Ala_Maududi - Maulana Maududi --then, from Abd Al-Ati's perspective and others like him, the "true Muslim" absolutely must believe in those passages as genuine revelation from Allah and live them out faithfully.  To do otherwise is to implicitly break faith with Allah and rebel against Allah's truth as revealed by a divinely-sent Messenger, Prophet, and Messiah, Isa/Jesus. 
 
Implications of Major Point and Discussion:
Muslims and Christians are bound by mutually-held belief in Jesus/Isa as Allah's Mesenger and Prophet and his teaching of the "Great Commandments" such that both groups are committed by their own holy books to obey Jesus/Isa's commands to "love your neighbor as yourself."
 
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I feel like this is concise enough while still getting everything necessary in.   A nutshell encapsulation of a chief implication the stuff on this thread.
 
Thoughts, people? Wink


Posted By: YieldedOne
Date Posted: 21 February 2011 at 7:25am
Ok...not as much interaction as I'd like...but what the hey. LOL
 
Figured I'd do some more paredown for simplification. 
 

Torah-asserted, Jesus-affirmed Commandments from God

"You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.  This is the great and first commandment. And a second is like it: You shall love your neighbor as yourself. On these two commandments depend all the Law and the Prophets.�

 

Torah-asserted, Jesus-affirmed Criteria for "Loving Your Neighbor As Yourself"(Leviticus 19:9-18)
1) When you gain from your work, don't just think about yourself. Think of the poor and the wayfarer.
2) Don't steal.
3) Don't operate by false pretenses or motives.
4) Don't lie to each other.
5) Don't oppress or rob your neighbor.
6) Don't mistreat the physically (or mentally) challenged.
7) Don't promote injustice or partiality. Judge righteously.
8) Don't slander others.
9) Don�t threaten the life of your neighbors.
10) Don't hate your brother (or sister) "in your heart."
11) Don't take vengeance for yourself.
12) Don't hold a grudge against your neighbor.

 

The "New" Commandment from Jesus...

"A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another: just as I have loved you, you also are to love one another."

"This is my command: Love each other."

 

Verification of Jesus' teachings by His followers...

"For this is the message that you have heard from the beginning, that we should love one another." --1 John 3:11

 

For you were called to freedom, brothers. Only do not use your freedom as an opportunity for the flesh, but through love serve one another. For the whole law is fulfilled in one word: �You shall love your neighbor as yourself.�  --Galatians 5:13-14

 

The Core Message of Jesus as God's Prophet and Messenger:

Human beings are to express singular worship of and submission to the One Uncreated Creator by a) thanksgiving, adoration and glorification to the Creator and b) works of loving-kindness and compassion to others and ourselves. In this, we are also to consecrate ourselves and be holy, compassionate, merciful, and loving because our Creator is holy, compassionate, merciful and loving.



Posted By: honeto
Date Posted: 02 March 2011 at 2:01pm

Hi,

I don't mean to be the black sheep here, but apart from what everyone agrees what about some real issues like associating with God the son and the holy ghost. That is something that is against basic fundamantals of not just Quran but of the Bible. Similarly, when one come accross painted and carved images and representations or I should call misrepresentation of God's beloved people (as no one who painted these images or carved these idols has personally ever seen them) like Jesus, Mary, God, Saints and so on and see people bowing, kneeling and worshipping them. While such acts are forbidden both in Quran and the Bible, how should one settle and accept these acts by others when God has said to have disliked them and warned against a terrible panelty to those practicing them?
 
I can understand living in peace with all fellow being, but it is not to be based on how many similarities we find between our beliefs rather it is a command from God. Worship of idols and that of other than God is wrong, and it must be pointed out like all the prophets did when they were sent to guide people.  They taught their people to do the same, we must not accept false worship or worship to anyone other than God as an acceptable act even be done by our own brother or sister. It is wrong and must be discussed and the correction made. Of course it is upto the person to decide for themself at the end, for which they will be held responsible.
Just my thoughts!
Hasan


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The friends of God will certainly have nothing to fear, nor will they be grieved. Al Quran 10:62



Posted By: YieldedOne
Date Posted: 02 March 2011 at 3:04pm

Honeto:
I don't mean to be the black sheep here, but apart from what everyone agrees what about some real issues like associating with God the son and the holy ghost. That is something that is against basic fundamantals of not just Quran but of the Bible. Similarly, when one come accross painted and carved images and representations or I should call misrepresentation of God's beloved people (as no one who painted these images or carved these idols has personally ever seen them) like Jesus, Mary, God, Saints and so on and see people bowing, kneeling and worshipping them. While such acts are forbidden both in Quran and the Bible, how should one settle and accept these acts by others when God has said to have disliked them and warned against a terrible panelty to those practicing them?

I can understand living in peace with all fellow being, but it is not to be based on how many similarities we find between our beliefs rather it is a command from God. Worship of idols and that of other than God is wrong, and it must be pointed out like all the prophets did when they were sent to guide people.  They taught their people to do the same, we must not accept false worship or worship to anyone other than God as an acceptable act even be done by our own brother or sister. It is wrong and must be discussed and the correction made. Of course it is upto the person to decide for themself at the end, for which they will be held responsible.

 

Thanks for responding, Honeto!  Good stuff. 

The statement that you made that I embolded is exactly my point: It is a COMMAND FROM GOD (via Moses and Jesus) that Muslims and Christians "love their neighbors as themselves."   To fail to live this out is to implicitly rebel against God's declared will.
 
The question is simply this: can people who have wrong beliefs about God (unto idolatry) be corrected in the context of loving them as neighbor?  I believe that's possible.  I don't see how correcting person where they may be wrong theologically necessitates malice, deception, or indifference against the neighbor (the things that Leviticus 19:9-18 talks about).
 
Surely a Muslim can hold to their convictions, testifying to the truth of monotheism and hold dialogue with non-Muslims in attempts to reason with them while STILL following Isa's commands...right?  We can love people who do unacceptable acts...because we are commanded to by what God said through Isa/Jesus via  the Torat and Injeel.
 
Would you disagree with this?


Posted By: honeto
Date Posted: 03 March 2011 at 11:26am
Dear Newbie,
I think your innocent assumption needs to be addressed:
First, the command of living in peace with others that I follow as a Muslim is not somthing that I take from the Bible rather the Final Testament, The Quran, which in my observation and examination proved to be more reliable and authentic then the modified versions left with us of what was revealed before it.  Islam's message through Quran is that of peace and justice, peace an individual achieves and that what radiates outward from the heart of a believer toward all created beings.
2:224 (Asad) AND DO NOT allow your oaths in the name of God to become an obstacle to virtue and God-consciousness and the promotion of peace between men: (2,212) for God is all-hearing, all-knowing.
In Islam we believe that what the last Prophet (pbuh) taught was no different than what Isa (pbuh) or prophets taught before him. Do we have with us today what previous prophets were given as word of God pure and unaltered. A simple obeservation reveals the true answer.
By the way I know of many passages in the Bible that command killings of those who worship other gods. If you don't know them, let me know and I will show you those because your last sentance above does not match to the contents of the Bible.
Hasan


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The friends of God will certainly have nothing to fear, nor will they be grieved. Al Quran 10:62



Posted By: YieldedOne
Date Posted: 03 March 2011 at 4:00pm

Honeto:
First, the command of living in peace with others that I follow as a Muslim is not somthing that I take from the Bible rather the Final Testament, The Quran, which in my observation and examination proved to be more reliable and authentic then the modified versions left with us of what was revealed before it.  Islam's message through Quran is that of peace and justice, peace an individual achieves and that what radiates outward from the heart of a believer toward all created beings.

Well, that's awesome that, as a Muslim being obedient to the Quran, you seek to promote peace and justice.  That's great. Smile

But none of that has to do with the substance (or lack thereof) of the line of thought I'm setting forth. I understand that you hold the Quran to be the "Final Testament".  At the same time, it seems that  a "true Muslim" (per Hammudat Abd Al-Ati) is bound by that same "Final Testament" to hold authentic Torat and Injeel as authoritative Muslim faith.  Please look at his statements again.  Do you disagree with his (and others') assessment on that score?

 

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Honeto:
In Islam we believe that what the last Prophet (pbuh) taught was no different than what Isa (pbuh) or prophets taught before him. Do we have with us today what previous prophets were given as word of God pure and unaltered. A simple obeservation reveals the true answer.

That's what Maulana Maududi's commentary is supposed to be helpful for: helping to discern the authentic, discoverable Torat and Injeel from the inauthentic.  I'm using HIS criteria here.  Do you disagree with Mr. Maududi's commentary and what it says?



Posted By: honeto
Date Posted: 07 March 2011 at 1:54pm
Dear Newbie,
The Quran is the final word, anyone including myself may not fully grasp it, we can only have a clear intention of understanding, beleiving and living by it.
On the issues that the Quran has clearly solved for us, we need not to find mystry or other meaings that we will prefer to see in it. That will be covering up the truth when it is made clear to us.
On the issue of Torat and Injeel, yes we beleive that they were from God, not because anyone else told us, no, rather God Almighty has told us that through His Final Word, the Quran.
God Almighty tells us through His Final Word, the Quran that people changed word of God and altered the scriptures sent before the Quran. I take Quaran's word as Final, and my own study of the Bible proved that Bible is the altered word and thus unreliable.
God Almighty has sent His Final Word the Quran as source and guidance from the All knowing. What there is left to figure out other than to follow what it says. 
Hasan


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The friends of God will certainly have nothing to fear, nor will they be grieved. Al Quran 10:62



Posted By: YieldedOne
Date Posted: 07 March 2011 at 4:27pm

Honeto:
The Quran is the final word, anyone including myself may not fully grasp it, we can only have a clear intention of understanding, beleiving and living by it.  On the issues that the Quran has clearly solved for us, we need not to find mystry or other meaings that we will prefer to see in it. That will be covering up the truth when it is made clear to us.

Sure.  And one of the things that is crystal clear in the Quran is that Jesus is a Messenger and Prophet of God whom Allah himself had given "the Scripture" (19:27-29)...even as he reaffirmed what came before him (61:6).

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Honeto:
On the issue of Torat and Injeel, yes we beleive that they were from God, not because anyone else told us, no, rather God Almighty has told us that through His Final Word, the Quran.

Exactamundo.


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Honeto:
God Almighty tells us through His Final Word, the Quran that people changed word of God and altered the scriptures sent before the Quran. I take Quaran's word as Final, and my own study of the Bible proved that Bible is the altered word and thus unreliable.

That's why the Maududi commentary is so important.  He specifically lays out what is reliable and what is not reliable.  Unless someone wants to say that he is not a true authority for healthy Muslim theology, I don't see why they wouldn't take what he had to say on the matter seriously.

Again, do you disagree with Mr Maududi's persepective?

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Honeto:
God Almighty has sent His Final Word the Quran as source and guidance from the All knowing. What there is left to figure out other than to follow what it says.

Say: "We believe in Allah, and in what has been revealed to us and what was revealed to Abraham, Isma'il, Isaac, Jacob, and the Tribes, and in (the Books) given to Moses, Jesus, and the prophets, from their Lord: We make no distinction between one and another among them, and to Allah do we bow our will (in Islam)."

From what I'm understanding of this passage, it's saying that the Muslim believes equally in the prophetic truths of Moses and Jesus as prophets of God.  So, if Jesus is a prophet of God from the Quran's perspective...and Quranically speaking, a Muslim is supposed to be believing in "what was revealed" to Moses and Jesus...and if good reason can be shown justifying the belief that what was "revealed" to Moses was the "Great Commandments" taught by Jesus, is there reason to completely ignore the teaching of a sinless Prophet that is venerated so highly?  That doesn't make much sense to me...but that's just me.



Posted By: honeto
Date Posted: 09 March 2011 at 8:13pm
Newbie,
I think you are just misunderstanding my point or just want to impose your's.
The affirmation of the Quran about previous prophets and revelations is jsut that. That we know and beleive that God is the one who sent all those prophets and books since Adam. In total, according to a saying of the Prophet(pbuh), some 124000 prophets were sent and there were many books sent by God through these prophets.
Yes we beleive that all of those prophets and those books came from God but each one for their time and not that all of those books were for all times. In other words, if we take the last Prophet (pbuh) and book, the Quran, they were sent for our times. Those of us who were born after him and the Quran sent through him will be judged by it's teachings and standards. It is the book according to which we aught to live out lives. Now those who were born before the revelation of the Quran will be judged on the bases of what was revealed for that time through Pophet Jesus (pbuh).
So, we can follow the examples of any prophets that are mentioned in the Final Testament, the Quran and the hadith beside's the example of the Prophet (pbuh)himself, and these are the only valid sources for our times upon which we will be judged. Any other source is invalid, and will be like sitting in an exam in 2011 but studyng the syllabus from 1811. Not only that but fact is that the Quran and Old Testament tells us that those Scriptures has been tempered with, which can be easily varified by anyone's sincere efforts and just a few examples of inconsistancies would prove the point. We all know and beleive that a pure word of God would not fail to be consistant.
 
Also, on one of your points in the first post on this page about God's love, kindness and Mercy with which I greatly agree but interestingly that is very inconsistant with Christianity's doctrine of so called "killing and blood sacrifice of Christ' as the only way to attonment and salvation for others. I don't see any Love, Peace or Mercy in that act of shedding blood!! Help me undrstand??
Hasan 
 


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The friends of God will certainly have nothing to fear, nor will they be grieved. Al Quran 10:62



Posted By: YieldedOne
Date Posted: 10 March 2011 at 10:58am

I appreciate the interaction, Honeto.  Sweet.

Honeto:
In other words, if we take the last Prophet (pbuh) and book, the Quran, they were sent for our times. Those of us who were born after him and the Quran sent through him will be judged by it's teachings and standards. It is the book according to which we aught to live out lives. Now those who were born before the revelation of the Quran will be judged on the bases of what was revealed for that time through Pophet Jesus (pbuh).

So, we can follow the examples of any prophets that are mentioned in the Final Testament, the Quran and the hadith beside's the example of the Prophet (pbuh)himself, and these are the only valid sources for our times upon which we will be judged.

Let's say that as a "person of the Book", specifically a Christian, I look at the Quran as the standard for "our time", ok?  Let's see what I see...

"And We caused Jesus, son of Mary, to follow in their footsteps, confirming that which was (revealed) before him in the Torah, and We bestowed on him the Gospel wherein is guidance and a light, confirming that which was (revealed) before it in the Torah - a guidance and an admonition unto those who ward off (evil)."

"Let the people of the Gospel judge by what Allah hath revealed therein. If any do fail to judge by (the light of) what Allah hath revealed, they are (no better than) those who rebel."

Now, this is what I get from this verse...and you can tell me if I'm wrong on this...

Whoever the "people of the Gospel" are need to "judge" themselves by what Allah has revealed within Jesus' Gospel and God's revelations "therein."  That's just what it says, right?  I can't see any other translation for what else that could mean. If you are a "person of the Gospel", you are Quranically bound to "judge" yourself by the Gospel of Jesus.  That's what the text simply says.

Being as Jesus and his Gospel fits your criteria (ie. "we can follow the examples of any prophets that are mentioned in the Final Testament...", then I can follow the example of Jesus as Prophet of God just fine.

And thanks to the scholarly work of Maulana Maududi, I am able to reasonably discern what that Gospel most likely was.


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Honeto:
Not only that but fact is that the Quran and Old Testament tells us that those Scriptures has been tempered with, which can be easily varified by anyone's sincere efforts and just a few examples of inconsistancies would prove the point. We all know and beleive that a pure word of God would not fail to be consistant.

For the sake of argument, I am taking it as TRUE that "tahrif" exists, that the Scriptures have been "tampered with."  I'm not even arguing that point.  What I'm saying--AGAIN--is that Mr. Maududi, whom I'm told is a very reputable Muslim authority on the Quran and other Holy writing, has provided a commentary method of discern what the authentic Torat and Injeel are.  These are HIS WORDS...

"Wherever authors and editors of the Bible have added anything of their own accord, by way of either elaboration or elucidation, it has become very difficult for an ordinary reader to distinguish the original from the explanatory additions. Those with insight into Divine Scripture, however, do have the capacity to distinguish between the original revealed fragments and the later, human interpolations."

This is Mr. Maududi HIMSELF.  Do you disagree with his perspective, Honeto.  I've asked you that a number of times and have failed to get an answer.  It's pretty important to the discussion though.

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Honeto:
Also, on one of your points in the first post on this page about God's love, kindness and Mercy with which I greatly agree but interestingly that is very inconsistant with Christianity's doctrine of so called "killing and blood sacrifice of Christ' as the only way to attonment and salvation for others. I don't see any Love, Peace or Mercy in that act of shedding blood!! Help me undrstand??

My "first point" is specifically talking about the Great Commandments (ie Deut 6:4-6 and Lev. 19:9-18).  I am not talking about the relationship of blood sacrifices and God's love. (Then we'd be talking about the whole Old Testament sacrificial system, which takes us far afield.)  Let's stick with that.



Posted By: YieldedOne
Date Posted: 10 March 2011 at 2:14pm
http://www.englishtafsir.com/Quran/3/index.html - More Maududi...

From the Note on Quran 3:3...

--------------------------------

The Old Testament was compiled by Ezra, when the Israelites returned home to Jerusalem after their captivity in Babylon and built the Temple anew. Ezra gathered together some prominent men of his community, and with their help compiled the whole history of Israel which now comprises the first 17 books of the Bible. Of these Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers and Deuteronorny tell the life history of Prophet Moses and include those verses of the real Taurat which became available to Ezra and his assistants, who incorporated them in those books at appropriate places in the chronological order of their revelation. Thus it is obvious that the Pentateuch as a whole is not the Taurat but includes it. The real Taurat comprises those verses which are scattered all over the life story of Prophet Moses, and it is not difficult even today to locate and recognize them. Such portions where the author says, "God said to Moses," or Moses said, The Lord your God says," the Taurat begins, and where the narrative of the life story is resumed, there that part of the Taurat ends. At those places the author of the Bible has inserted certain things by way of explanation or commentary, and it is here that the ordinary reader fails to distinguish the real Taurat from the commentary. However, those who have an insight into the nature of Divine Scriptures, can distinguish, to some degree of exactness, the explanatory. notes from the revealed verses.

According to the Qur'an, only such scattered portions in the Pentateuch are the Taurat and it confirms them alone. And this can be testified by putting together these verses and comparing them with the Qur'an. Here and there one might come across a minor difference in their details, but one cannot find even the slightest difference between the fundamental teachings of the two. Even today one can see clearly that both the Scriptures have come from the same source.

Likewise, the Injil is the name of those inspired discourses and sayings which Jesus (Allah's peace be upon him) uttered as a prophet during the last couple of years of his life. We have no means now of ascertaining whether these pious utterances were recorded and compiled during the lifetime of Jesus. In the introduction to his translation of the Bible, Moffat says, "Jesus wrote nothing and for a time his immediate disciples felt no impulse to write any account of him. The data of the historical Jesus, therefore is based on the vivid recollections and traditions of the primitive Palestinian disciples. How soon their materials took written shape we cannot tell, but at least one written record of them was probably in existence by about A.D.50." Anyhow, when, long after his recall, the stories of Jesus were compiled in the shape of four Gospels, (the period of the composition of Mark, the tirst to be composed was 65-75 A.D.), some of his written or inspired sayings were also inserted at appropriate places in the historical sketches. Thus it is obvious that the first four Gospels are not the Injil, the discourses and sayings of Jesus, but they contain it. We have no means of recognizing thetas from the works of the authors except this: Wherever the authors say "Jesus said so or taught so and so," there the Injil begins and where they resume the narration, there it ends. According to the Qur'an, only such portions are the Injil and these alone are condensed by it. If these portions are compiled together and compared with the Qur'an, one will tied no serious difference between the two, and, if somewhere a trivial difference appears, it can be removed very easily with unbiased thinking.

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Does anyone here disagree with Mr. Maududi's view on this? If so, why?

*****************

"And the Lord spoke to Moses, saying...": Leviticus 19:1

�Now this is the commandment, the statutes and the rules that the Lord your God commanded me to teach you, that you may do them in the land to which you are going over, to possess it: Deuteronomy 6:1


But when the Pharisees heard that he had silenced the Sadducees, they gathered together. And one of them, a lawyer, asked him a question to test him. �Teacher, which is the great commandment in the Law?� And he (Jesus) said to him, �You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind. This is the great and first commandment. And a second is like it: You shall love your neighbor as yourself. On these two commandments depend all the Law and the Prophets.�: Matthew 22:34-40


Posted By: honeto
Date Posted: 10 March 2011 at 8:50pm
Newbie,
I diagree with that statement if that's what M.Maududi has said about Torah. If those are his words I must disagree with him as I disagree with you that Torah and Gospel are not in their pure form like when they were revealed by God, even though that statment can be interpreted in many different ways. I would like you to explain what you take out of it?
M. Maududi is a man and I respect him for that and for being a believer in One and Only God. He also has a right to say things and write about them, like many of us. Yes I agree he was a learned man. God knows the best about him and about all of us. But still he was like anyone of us, if anyone of us is sincere in their faith, that's the only degree that raise one over the other, and that is only after the All Knowing will reveal the truth about each one of us on the day of Judgement and declare that level of degree. Only then we will know where ourself and others stand.
 
I would like to ask you one thing, did M. Maududi ever agreed to the idea that Jesus was son of God and that God is three in one? or did he clearly deny that and stood up for the Absolute Oness of God without any partners in Godhead? do you also listen to other things he has to say or you only chose what favors you pointof view??
Hasan


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The friends of God will certainly have nothing to fear, nor will they be grieved. Al Quran 10:62



Posted By: YieldedOne
Date Posted: 10 March 2011 at 10:12pm
Wow.
 
Honeto:
I disagree with that statement if that's what M.Maududi has said about Torah. If those are his words I must disagree with him as I disagree with you that Torah and Gospel are not in their pure form like when they were revealed by God, even though that statment can be interpreted in many different ways. I would like you to explain what you take out of it?
M. Maududi is a man and I respect him for that and for being a believer in One and Only God. He also has a right to say things and write about them, like many of us. Yes I agree he was a learned man. God knows the best about him and about all of us. But still he was like anyone of us, if anyone of us is sincere in their faith, that's the only degree that raise one over the other, and that is only after the All Knowing will reveal the truth about each one of us on the day of Judgement and declare that level of degree. Only then we will know where ourself and others stand.
 
Hmmmm...you know who this guy is, right?  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maududi - He's a heavyweight , I thought.  On what basis do you disagree with his scholarly assessment?
 
******************************
 
Honeto:
I would like to ask you one thing, did M. Maududi ever agreed to the idea that Jesus was son of God and that God is three in one? or did he clearly deny that and stood up for the Absolute Oness of God without any partners in Godhead? do you also listen to other things he has to say or you only chose what favors you pointof view??
 
1) Of course, Mr Maududi wasn't trinitarian.  That seems patently obvious.
 
2) Favor my point of view?  From what I understand, Maududi's scholarly work and commentaries are FOR MUSLIMS to better practice their own faith.  I'm only using resources that would be valid for thoughtful Muslims. i don't see anything wrong with that.


Posted By: YieldedOne
Date Posted: 11 March 2011 at 1:01pm
1) http://blogs.guardian.co.uk/quran/2008/04/answers_to_questions_fri.html - Rethinking Maududi
He may have been a controversial figure, but Maududi's commentary on the Qu'ran still has a lot to teach us
April 11, 2008
 
2) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Towards_Understanding_the_Quran - Towards Understanding the Qur'an is the English rendering of Syed Abul Ala Maududi's famous Urdu Tafsir or commentary of Qur'an -- Tafhim al-Qur'an.
 
This book ranks as one of the best commentaries of the Qur'an. In this commentary work Maududi gives the historical reasons behind the verses of Qur'an. He also gives a comprehensive introduction and background for each chapter in the Qur'an. This tafsir answers contemporary questions. Maps and indexes add greatly to the work.


Posted By: YieldedOne
Date Posted: 11 March 2011 at 1:02pm
Honeto, 
 
If you would be so kind...you've gotta give me a really goooooooooood reason why you dismiss Maududi's perspective so lightly. 
 
Smile
 
 


Posted By: honeto
Date Posted: 13 March 2011 at 9:00pm
Alhumdolillah, Praise the Lord for Islam.
Yes, and thank God that the Quran and Sunnah is the authority in Islam, and not the hierarchy like in other believes.
I respect those with knowledge. If M. Maududi was here I would ask him, if that's what he said and why, he will have to explain it.
 
Let me tell you something, there is a lot of clear things in the Quran that a believer must understand and follow, anything else, anything that need explaination, has to be explained by those with knowledge. In this case it is not so. This matter has been clearly stated in the FinalTestament. There is no counfusion if you read. So we need not to bring anyone else to give us their opinion. Remember Islam is not aboutmy opinion or anyone elses, rather it is straight out commands from the One who knows All. And when God said something and it is conveyed to us clearly, we need not to find opinions of other about it so we can find something we like in it, unless we don't believe that it is from God. 
 
I have given you a logical and truthful answer already that the Quran has clearly spoken on the subject, no one can change it except God Almighy.
 
Let me ask you this, what do you extract from this:
"Commentary by http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abul_Ala_Maududi - Maulana Maududi

1. The Torah is generally taken to signify the first five books of the Old Testament, and the Injil (Gospel), to mean the four Gospels of the New Testament, even though those books form a part of it. This has sometimes caused people to wonder if these books were indeed revealed by God. If they are accepted as revealed, one may wonder if the Qur'an really verifies their contents as this verse says. The fact is, however, that the Torah is not identical with the first five books of the Old Testament even though those books form a part of the Torah. Likewise, the Injil is not identical with the four Gospels of the New Testament."
 
Hasan


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The friends of God will certainly have nothing to fear, nor will they be grieved. Al Quran 10:62




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