Shadow lands: Pakistan - a nation under attack

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Topic: Shadow lands: Pakistan - a nation under attack

Posted By: Umm Hufsah
Subject: Shadow lands: Pakistan - a nation under attack
Date Posted: 06 April 2010 at 8:15am

Excellent (but sad) article, gives you idea on whats really happening in 'war to terrorise':

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/asia/shadow-lands-pakistans-plight-1936507.html

Replies:

Posted By: Hayfa
Date Posted: 06 April 2010 at 8:48am

It is heart- breaking.

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When you do things from your soul, you feel a river moving in you, a joy. Rumi

Posted By: Umm Hufsah
Date Posted: 06 April 2010 at 9:35am

This article sums it all up so well:

http://www.rense.com/general49/evil.htm

Posted By: Umm Hufsah
Date Posted: 06 April 2010 at 10:24am

The New Evil Empire
America has become what Nazi Germany
and the Soviet Union used to be By John Kaminski
[email protected]
2-28-4

Remember the Red Menace, also known as the Communist threat? Or how about the Third Reich, the creator of which became the chief metaphor for evil in the 20th century?

Most Americans, certainly those younger than 30, don't remember either. Hell, they don't even remember Vietnam or Nixon or The Beatles. The terms and their connotations are totally unfamiliar, unless encountered in history texts. Millions of Americans simply do not remember what America used to stand for - freedom, justice, equality - and as a result, don't fully comprehend the appalling reality of what America has become.

Once upon a time, back in the days of Elvis and the hula hoop, when I was a little shaver, I was taught in school that when Germany took over France, Poland and other European countries, that was wrong, and the United States sacrificed almost a half million of its own young people to reverse those situations in the name of freedom. And that happened twice, 1916-18 and 1941-45.

In the same vein, I grew up being taught that the Soviet Union's annexation of Poland, Czechoslovakia, Hungary, and all of Eastern Europe was an evil deed, and that for many years in a period called the Cold War, the American military objective was aimed at overturning this unjust oppression. Back in the 1950s when I was in elementary school, we used to have routine Civil Defense drills where we used to have to hide under our desks pretending we were about to be nuked by the Russians. Really!

It's a new world now. For one thing, the population of the planet has doubled in those mere 50 years. And for another, it is the United States that is now sweeping the world, scooping up all these other countries in the name of capitalist democracy, and telling lies about why it has to go to war. And instead of railing against the powerful giant stealing freedom from all these hapless victims, as it did in years past, the American press is now cheering it, justifying it in the increasingly ambivalent names of capitalism and democracy. Worse, the American people are cheering it, too, something that's never really happened in U.S. history, when the people support a war that they know is based on lies.

Of course, the American press is cheering it because it is the American military doing it. Even the German and Russian press aren't really criticizing it in a serious way. Because there is no country that can oppose America, which spends more on its military than all the other countries in the world combined, yet still complains that it needs to spend more, even as its bridges and schools are falling apart and its manufacturing base has completely disappeared, precipitating its imminent economic collapse. Still the military spending increases, and war plans ooze out like an evil ink stain spreading across the globe.

The evil empire, number one threat to peace in the world, is now the United States. No more Red Menace. No more Third Reich. Now it's a War on Terror executed by the biggest terrorist of all - America, the nation that killed its own people by the thousands in order to trigger World War III and capture all the world's oil fields.

Now the shoe is obviously on the other foot. The United States has now assumed the role of Nazi Germany and Soviet Russia at their worst and all rolled into one. It has troops poised and threatening in 127 other countries. By the diabolical mechanisms of the World Trade Organization and the International Monetary Fund, it has already plundered most other countries financially, stealing their utilities and impoverishing their inhabitants. And those nations who resist this financial con game, like Yugoslavia, are simply invaded and coerced into servitude. Those nations who play the game, like Russia and Argentina, are reduced to abject poverty with a few pro-Western billionaires owning everything.

And woe to those nations who won't play the game, like Iraq. They are obliterated and turned into permanent war zones. Their people are murdered in their sleep by hopped-up American soldiers who are told by their cynical leaders that they are spreading democracy, when really what they are spreading are endless opportunities for plunder by politically connected corporations.

And America's leader lie about absolutely everything. Never at any time in my personal history has there been a time when an American president has not at least accidentally told the truth about something, but that time is now.

Once upon a time, Americans used to preach the cause of freedom and justice for all. It's actually written in their Pledge of Allegiance. But they don't adhere to that anymore. After all, Americans have canceled their Bill of Rights, which once made them famous - made them loved! - all over the world. Now they are feared all over the world. Reviled. When Americans launched their worldwide war on terror - based on a treasonous event in which they killed large numbers of their own people - they betrayed the whole world. They betrayed every dream of freedom anybody ever had anywhere.

The people who did it did it for a few billion dollars. Can you blame them? It's easy money blowing up countries and blaming it on somebody else. Even you might do it if you had the chance. Americans support such an idea. It's capitalism at its best, controlling the market, make money on the destruction by selling the weapons, make money on the reconstruction by involving your friends in the contracts, no public bids, of course. So you lose a few dark-skinned lives. The world is overpopulated anyway. Look at it as population control (although that it another, much larger topic).

Things have become so ugly in the United States that the liberal opposition candidate for president tells peace activists to "Get over it!" That there will be no peace no matter who is president. That America is united to overrun and ravish the whole world, simply because there is no one to stop it. This is the America that was venerated and admired all over the world. This is what America became when there was no other power to keep it honest. It became dishonest - and a killer nation.

People overseas make a mistake when the say they have nothing against the American people, that it is simply the American government they loathe and fear. It is the American people who have permitted this to happen, and they who bear the blame and will reap the whirlwind for their inaction.

Once, America set an example for the world to establish representative government and take care of its less fortunate. Today, America is still setting an example for the world, an example that democracy is a hoax, and that all we can expect for our children's futures is a dark abyss of endless war based on phony pretenses.

The thing that made the episodes with Nazi Germany and Soviet Union have happy endings was that there was somebody to fight for freedom ready to rescue those oppressed by military tyranny from a foreign power.

But now, who is ready to defend the freedom of those in Afghanistan, or in Iraq, or in Macedonia, Serbia, the Philippines, Colombia, Venezuela, Argentina, Iran, Syria, Lebanon, Pakistan, Nicaragua, Chile, Bolivia, Ecuador, Guatemala ... or Palestine?

Who is ready to defend freedom now that the Americans have declared freedom incompatible with security?

But these things tend to even out over time. Rome wasn't built in a day and it took centuries to fall apart, but eventually it was picked apart by jackals and sycophantic traitors from within.

The world will yet have the last laugh on America, after its own leaders have finished picking the bones of its financially depleted carcass.

Because Americans have given up defending true freedom around the world, the day will soon arrive (sooner than they think) when they will have to defend their own freedom against the very monster they have created by their own selfish indifference. The corporate beast that consumes freedom around the world will one day soon turn its gaping jaws on America itself, and the Americans, who have decided to forget how to defend true freedom around the world, will necessarily have forgotten how to defend their own.

Once upon a time, when I was a little shaver and the president was some guy named Ike, I was told that America was the greatest nation in the world because it was a champion of freedom and justice, and rescued the oppressed whenever people were in trouble.

So ... were they lying then and telling the truth now, or telling the truth then and lying now?

And when the rest of the world comes calling to rectify this murderous tyranny and worldwide oppression that America now practices, what will you say to them when they aim their guns at you? That you didn't know?




John Kaminski is the author of "America's Autopsy Report," a collection of his Internet essays published by Dandelion Books and featured on hundreds of websites around the world. For more information on how to get this book or to financially support his work (seriously needed now), go to http://www.johnkaminski.com/. Or, to read some more of his recent essays for free, go to http://www.rudemacedon.ca/kaminski/kam-index.html

Posted By: martha
Date Posted: 06 April 2010 at 12:39pm

Salams Umm Hufsah,

Both the articles you posted were really good. Robert Fisk , journalist for the Independent, is a great pacifist, and understands a huge amount. Like John Kaminski, the author of the 2nd article, they are both of the older generation of humans. That goes a long way as far as I am concerned.

In both cases I am convinced that current global debts (and greed) are the main reasons for so many conflicts.

I wonder if we all cleared our debts if it would make a difference to the minds of the world leaders? Certainly I know that the UK are beholden to the US and this is often why the UK stands as a US allie.(MOst here really don't want to follow the US) But recent revelations show that actually the US owe substantial amounts to the UK!
The following link I guess will come to no surprise to our US brothers and sisters. Quite frankly it is scary.

http://hubpages.com/hub/The-American-National-Debt-Who-Do-American-Owe

(I am so pleased that Sahil Saaed was returned safely home to his family. I watched the story from when it broke to when the little boy was returned to the UK.) http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/uk-world-news/2010/03/25/pakistani-police-arrest-mastermind-behind-kidnapping-of-british-boy-sahil-saeed-86908-22138015/

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some of us are a lot like cement:- all mixed up and permanently set

Posted By: Umm Hufsah
Date Posted: 06 April 2010 at 12:55pm

Wasalam martha,

I agree with your views.

Posted By: martha
Date Posted: 06 April 2010 at 12:57pm

Umm Hufsah wrote:

Wasalam martha, I agree with your views.

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some of us are a lot like cement:- all mixed up and permanently set

Posted By: Hayfa
Date Posted: 07 April 2010 at 5:44am

I agree with the debt angle. I also think many people here are "fat and happy." And the jaws will consume..

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When you do things from your soul, you feel a river moving in you, a joy. Rumi

Posted By: Umm Hufsah
Date Posted: 07 April 2010 at 6:46am

Hayfa wrote:

I agree with the debt angle. I also think many people here are "fat and happy." And the jaws will consume..

No kidding.... but this is not just the case with US. I have seen this case in other western countries as well, particularly some of its allies. It could be that people in these countries are too busy being fat and happy to do anything about stopping the war while claiming that they don't support it.

Posted By: Hayfa
Date Posted: 08 April 2010 at 4:47am

I know some people working to stop the wars, but not enough. If they could stop the wars, it might also help the economy.. instead of resources going down a black hole.

You know 58,000 Americans died in the fruitless war that was Vietnam. it took that many people. But people are sold a bill of goods. i was talking to my Sister-in -law and you see it hook- line and sinker. This we need to "support the troops" mantra. Goes to show you that nationalism has replaced a higher authority... that we will answer to God. Its the Nation-state that is the one we 'bow down to."

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When you do things from your soul, you feel a river moving in you, a joy. Rumi

Posted By: Umm Hufsah
Date Posted: 08 April 2010 at 8:31am

Hayfa wrote:

I know some people working to stop the wars, but not enough. If they could stop the wars, it might also help the economy.. instead of resources going down a black hole.

You know 58,000 Americans died in the fruitless war that was Vietnam. it took that many people. But people are sold a bill of goods. i was talking to my Sister-in -law and you see it hook- line and sinker. This we need to "support the troops" mantra. Goes to show you that nationalism has replaced a higher authority... that we will answer to God. Its the Nation-state that is the one we 'bow down to."

I know, its very sad that so many lives are lost in this war as well in all countries involved ( in the offencive and in the defencive) but this war is kept fueled for some very valuable reasons to 'war profiteers' ( Oil Rush and Imperialism are very obviously amongst them). Its the innocent civilians over looked every time becoming just numbers who died.

Its amazing how people don't learn their lesson from the history and don't get tired of being manipulated by their corrupt power hungry politicians. Nationalism is powerful idea used by elites or political leaders at potential opportunities to manipulate or control the masses. Nationalism has been used ever so often to support ethnic cleansing and genocide, including the American genocide, Nazi Holocaust, the deportation of the Chechen's and Crimean and Tartars under Stalin, the expulsion of of Germans from Poland and Czechoslovakia and the ethnic cleansing during the Yugoslav Wars.

Nationalism gives these corrupt inhuman politicians, licence to get away with horrendous war crimes, this time its with a little twist of dictatorship under the flag of capitalist democracy - placing corrupt people as puppet leaders in target countries like Iraq, Afghanistan and Pakistan - leading these countries into total chaos.

Muslims are encouraged to support murder of their own brothers and sisters round the world in the name of Nationalism, fooling them into believing that they are being liberated (more like liberated from this world - killed indiscriminately in thousands).

Posted By: ops155
Date Posted: 08 April 2010 at 3:54pm

Umm Hufsah wrote:

Speaking of controling the masses, how best to do that??? TV and the news, put out as many demonizing articles as you can and say look what they are doing yet never admit you are doing the same thing. Although no one here will ever admit that Muslims are doing the same exact type of thing, anyone remember dead bodies being dragged down a road and put hung from the bridge? It happens on both sides, you believe what you want. It is called war, don't like it, give up!!! War is not pretty in anyway. Just because America has better technology doesn't mean anything, your side has to use suicide bombers where we can use a remote control plane. The result is the same, innocent people dead on BOTH sides.

Posted By: Umm Hufsah
Date Posted: 09 April 2010 at 4:21am

ops155 wrote:

Well! Well! what have we got here another 'war to terrorise' supporter. You don't want the war to end no matter what, I see..... and you really really want this war to go on infinitely, Okay its your choice! don't care who dies in your attacks? but then it makes you as inhuman as the suicide bombers, can you explain where does the difference between you and them lie then? why go to the other countries and kill terrorists when people supporting the 'war to terrorise' have 'terrorist mentality', you need to fix yourself first to go play hero dude..........if not where will it ever end then? world blowing it self up. Just between you and me what are you getting out of this war, is government paying you good money to support this war? how wise to become 'terrorist' to stop terrorism, ending up in fanning it even more to inextinguishable proportion. There has to be effort to put this fire out, rather adding oil to it, don't you think?

Posted By: nu001
Date Posted: 09 April 2010 at 4:23am

Unfortunately pakistan's enemies are more within than from outside. If an entity is too much greedy, outsiders will take chance of fulfilling their mission in return.

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"Al-Quran-The only Straight path to success. Alhamdulillah"

Posted By: Umm Hufsah
Date Posted: 09 April 2010 at 5:24am

Greed exists in every country on this earth, however, its the master technique of America and its allies - how best to exploit the weaknesses of the opponent country to win no matter how low you need to fall. First put sanctions upon sanctions to starve the people in these countries to death and when they have become nothing but skin and bones then threaten them that their country will be obliterated if they do not agree to play in the hands of US and its allies - this way all the corrupt politicians starts jumping to the bones America throws at them to make them do all the dirty work for it to succeed.

Posted By: martha
Date Posted: 10 April 2010 at 11:45am

You are right, sister, that greed is everywhere in the world.

One huge problem that Pakistan has is a corrupt Pres. Zardari.(he is not called Mr 10% for nothing..fingers in many pies) He is just that way, regardless of the US and the allies. I say this because millions of British pounds has been sent to the Pak government from the UK,BUt how much reached the poor and homeless and starving. I heard from reliable sources that Zardari spent a large majority on new cars etc :( We already know how much he stole and put into Swiss bank accounts. ANd was it not the Pak government that increased the food prices of sugar, rice etc and people had a big worry about food?

BUt it is true that Pak Presidents are puppets to the Americans, as UK Prime Ministers are puppets to them also. It's terribly sad really :( THe people of Pakistan once were very trusting of their leaders. I kind of get the feeling that the poor are pretty much kept in the dark about their country?

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some of us are a lot like cement:- all mixed up and permanently set

Posted By: Sign*Reader
Date Posted: 10 April 2010 at 2:05pm

martha
salaam
Very good observation...
The tragedy is if UK can't have independent voice then what to say about a place like Pakistan which just a semi autonomous entity with no leadership...People of Pakistan are mistaken that they got real independence and they still are in denial after six decades of perilous existence ... In the meantime they have been hocked to the World Bank & IMF... the arms of the Zionist mafia at present time!
The plan was to create a base for US and western alliance to contain now defunct USSR; under which they handed over the carved country to the pliant or moronic leadership at the time of partition of the subcontinent ...The problem has been compounded by the corruption of the masses as things have gone from bad to worse since as expected!
As you know any act has an intention so what you see is obvious!

Posted By: Boomer
Date Posted: 10 April 2010 at 6:37pm

Sign*Reader wrote:

martha
salaam
Very good observation...
The tragedy is if UK can't have independent voice then what to say about a place like Pakistan which just a semi autonomous entity with no leadership...People of Pakistan are mistaken that they got real independence and they still are in denial after six decades of perilous existence ... In the meantime they have been hocked to the World Bank & IMF... the arms of the Zionist mafia at present time!
The plan was to create a base for US and western alliance to contain now defunct USSR; under which they handed over the carved country to the pliant or moronic leadership at the time of partition of the subcontinent ...The problem has been compounded by the corruption of the masses as things have gone from bad to worse since as expected!
As you know any act has an intention so what you see is obvious!

Ah yes. The "Zionist mafia". As usual, your entire world is consumed with wacky conspiracy theories such that your every though is focused on the "Zionists". What a sad and pathetic existence.

Posted By: Sign*Reader
Date Posted: 10 April 2010 at 10:59pm

hey TROLL:
You may like to live by ignorance is bliss motto then why bother coming here?
Let's see who setup IMF?
A: Harry Dexter White
Who is heading it now?
A. Dominique Strauss-Kahn
Both Zionists...
Do I need to edify an oaf further on the wolves (Wolfowitz/Wolfensohn) LOL

were running the world bank of loan sharks till Zoellick took over for a change! ...

Who set it up the World Bank? A.Eugene Isaac Meyer! after running the money machine at the Fed...BTW the current head of the Fed. Bernanke! Do you see anyone who is not from the chosen tribes!

It doesn't matter whether you are a wing nut or whatever ... they got you good!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Bank#Criticism - - Criticism of the World Bank

Posted By: Hayfa
Date Posted: 11 April 2010 at 7:37pm

But it is true that Pak Presidents are puppets to the Americans, as UK Prime Ministers are puppets to them also. It's terribly sad really :( The people of Pakistan once were very trusting of their leaders. I kind of get the feeling that the poor are pretty much kept in the dark about their country?

Martha, very good point.. they keep the masses illiterate. Plus you add onto the feudal nature of the 40 or so land-owning families controlling everything.. why would they WANT the citizens to be educated? Hard to get different ideas if you are a: afraid of loosing what little you have b: you cannot read a newspaper c: work can be hard to come by.

I would guess the people giving the foreign aid know EXACTLY where it is going. It is buying support for certain endeavors. It benefits some to destabalize the country..

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When you do things from your soul, you feel a river moving in you, a joy. Rumi

Posted By: Umm Hufsah
Date Posted: 13 April 2010 at 5:30am

One thing is for sure all the aid money is not reaching the poor and the needy in Pakistan or even the middle - class people...

The PK media desperately need to be corrupt and lying in order to control the people not to start war against their own tyrant government. Even though Riots to demonstrate against the government have started already and its own news papers like Dawn are criticising its government that it's time to start acting like one or else its people who are kept in dark and illiterate (struggling trying to make ends meet) will turn on the government in great numbers - even they have started to see its government's tyranny.

As soon as America has started placing its favourite governments like Musharraf and Zardari there, more people have died then ever in history of Pakistan and country's stability is going from bad to completely and utterly destroyed. There used to be democracy leading this country at one time even then it was struggling to survive, now mutated form of democracy called demo-lunaticrasy (capitalism with dictatorship) is forced down their throats which is eating it hollow from within. Rich are getting ever so richer and poor are growing ever so poorer - rich - class people completely aloaf from what problems people in lower classes are endeavouring in midst of all this chaos.

http://www.dawn.com/wps/wcm/connect/dawn-content-library/dawn/the-newspaper/editorial/19-growing-desperation-140-hh-10

The reports mentions the word anarchy. It�s not far from it. I am amazed the country hasn�t disintegrated entirely yet.

Posted By: Divya_Mohammed
Date Posted: 14 August 2010 at 8:08am

Assalam Alaikum,

I feel sad when I read about Pakistan but I have absolutely no sympathy at all. They are reaping the fruits of what they sowed years back. I do not blame anyone else but Pakistan for its current crisis. The drone attack is just a peanut in comparison to the horros what the Pakistani establishment has done over the years to humanity and all their serious Human Rights Violations, which they continue to do.

It is a bizzare tragic coincidence that my most beautiful nation India was divided 63 years back on the night of this very same day and Pakistan was created out of an erstwhile composite India. [ night of 14th August 1947 ] .

Remember Pakistan like Israel were the only two nations on the planet created exclusively for followers of one religion, out of the then existing Composite India and Palestine. And the tragedy is very similar but not identical at all. However, Israel is wiser than Pakistan, in the sense it has focussed on economic front but Pakistan is a failure-state right from conceptualisation. I pray to Allah that no nation on the planet should be bifurcated by force, especially for people of just one religious community at the right and expense of people of religious minorities.

We, the minorities [ all including Muslims ] in India are surely far far better in comparison to the plight of minorities in Pakistan or Bangladesh and even the majority Muslims of Pakistan and Bangladesh in every religious, social and economic front.

Just 8 human beings decided to divide India and what right anyone had, I wonder. How did they arrogate themselves to divide a great Nation that has taught civilisation and contributed substantially to Humanity over several millenia. I am sure they will be in hell-fire.

India, born of the same umbelical cord has fared much better and is a respected Nation after 63 years and the world has started looking at India with respect that she fully deserves.

Pakistan as a territory does not deserve any sympathy but surely common people deserve sympathy.

Happy Independence Day to India !

I pray to Allah for peace and prosperity to India and Pakistan on their Independence Day !

Allah Hafiz

Divya Mohammed Iyer

Posted By: Sign*Reader
Date Posted: 14 August 2010 at 9:06am

Divya_Mohammed wrote:

Just 8 human beings decided to divide India and what right anyone had, I wonder.

Would you list those eight I am curious?

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Kismet Domino: Faith/Courage/Liberty/Abundance/Selfishness/Immorality/Apathy/Bondage or extinction.

Posted By: Divya_Mohammed
Date Posted: 14 August 2010 at 1:01pm

Assalam Alaikum

The eight persons were :

1) Mohammed Ali Jinnah, who became first Governor-General of Pakistan and Called Quaid-e-Azam in Pakistan.

2) Liaqat Ali Khan, who became First Prime Minister of Pakistan

3) Chaudry Mohammed Ali, who became Fourth PM of Pakistan

All three chose to become Pakistanis.

4) Jawaharlal Nehru, who became First Prime Minister of India.

5) Sardar Vallabhai Patel, who became First Home Minister of India.

6) Maulana Abdul Kalam Azad, who became First Education Minister of India.

7) Sardar Baldev Singh, who became First Defense Minister of India

All four chose to remain in India.

8) Lord Mountbatten, the Last Viceroy of India, who went back to England.

Allah Hafiz

Divya Mohammed Iyer

Mumbai, India

Posted By: Sign*Reader
Date Posted: 14 August 2010 at 4:40pm

If you know the history these eight characters were the recipients of Radcliffe Award...They had no power to divide but to demand whatever but there was something else bigger in scope than that these guys that you have overlooked!
It is called the super powers' poker! Those who have the guts, guns and ground resources to setup shop to deal!
If you know then super power Britain's shop was challenged by Hitler's Third Reich to have his shop and so the great war ensued...You should know when the great wars occur the winner takes the chips and resets the order according to his new game rules...
So think what was happening once the blitzkrieg started in Europe and particularly Africa where the allied Americans suffered big! The Allied needed all the men to fight against the Axis forces! British asked the Indian leaders you listed for the men but Indian side refused...So guess what? the Brits told them if the Allied win the war they will get the country called Pakistan! And you should know when the war ended Churchill tried to change his mind on giving full independence to India.... but FDR and Stalin already were running the race to be the new supers and you would know that I reckon...And then Churchill's party lost the election and America wanted a foot on the subcontinent and Indian side being socialists couldn't have the whole thing so down came the Radcliffe Award with its concomitant problems! so it was not in hands of these paper tigers but they were the only ones there standing!
The story is of capitalism vs socialism tug of war run by the money changers people really don't matter they are just slaves and slave drivers and the go between in these paradigms! It is just a game if you can understand!

How ironic the American capitalist brought the American manufacturing assembly line to China on a platter cuz they found there the biggest pool of diligent slave labor to make a killer profits selling the finished goods in America...Giving China by default a shot at being the new super power in very near future leaving America as debtor nation to sort itself out!
Yes lot of American jobs went to India too after Indian changed the policy from socialist to capitalism and market based in last 15 years!

So far Pakistan is concerned people were kept in the dark didn't know any better but being a neo colony for the US against the defunct USSR unwittingly while Nahru had thrown his lot with USSR! As I said previously Pakistan was not meant to be really independent as many people think, it was gradual thing but now it is in even a bigger hole!
I hope these facts will clarify some of the background for you!

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Kismet Domino: Faith/Courage/Liberty/Abundance/Selfishness/Immorality/Apathy/Bondage or extinction.

Posted By: Hayfa
Date Posted: 14 August 2010 at 8:23pm

I agree Sign.. its a game of chess.. but often the "sides" are not clear cut.

n a song from Stevie Wonder called Higher Ground he has a line:
Powers keep on lyin' while your people keep on dyin"

It sums it all up....

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When you do things from your soul, you feel a river moving in you, a joy. Rumi

Posted By: Divya_Mohammed
Date Posted: 15 August 2010 at 1:22am

Assalam Alaikum

I partially accept the views expressed by Sign reader, as the inter-European race for supremacy and resultant world war etc surely influenced a great deal.

There is also truth behind power game etc but one thing certain, it has a lot to do with local leaders, who are just as cunning and power hungry as those at the helm of affairs in those richer and powerful countries.

It is certainly a fashion to blame rich, powerful nations for all the evils of the developing world, as somehow it convinces our mind more easily to accept that theory than the realisation that our leaders were/are the prime culprits, which were certainly exploited by leaders of the west.

I am not defending or condoning the foreign countries atrocities in other countries but i am concerned by selfish domestic leaders from developing world who stoop down to any extent for supremacy.

What happened to the raison-etre of partition ?

Just fanning and playing with religious sentiments of people in a negative way, negating the principles of the golden religion Islam and going against all principles of humanity at large and ignoring reality cannot take a nation forward.

Allah Hafiz

Divya Mohammed Iyer

Mumbai, India

Posted By: Sign*Reader
Date Posted: 15 August 2010 at 5:56pm

Divya_Mohammed wrote:

Assalam Alaikum

I partially accept the views expressed by Sign reader, as the inter-European race for supremacy and resultant world war etc surely influenced a great deal.

For example, I hate the damage that both erstwhile Soviet Union and currently Pakistan and USA are doing in Afghanistan but dont forget, during the intervening period, when these 3 countries did not interfere much in Afghanistan, there were still fighting and killing on the same scale as it now or even more, with different warlords killing innocent people for their own influence and supremacy. 1000 people killed by local hooligans and warlord would be forgotten more easily, in most cases, as compared to 100 guys killed by the foreign powers.
Do you ever hear how many Americans were killed in the civil war/ I am not sure what are you trying to say above what did you expect? It is well known Omar brought stability to the destroyed nation that no other had done by laying down the law!
The west can not tolerate a Sunni nation any where that has three Gs cuz they worked for 13 centuries to get the Islamic Realm down finally from the Ottomans! ...The current invasion is the proof that mullah Omar meant it!

You forgot to mention India's role in Afghanistan and I wonder what business she has being there unless one flips the hole card and sees the zionist joker!

I am not defending or condoning the foreign countries atrocities in other countries but i am concerned by selfish domestic leaders from developing world who stoop down to any extent for supremacy.
I don't buy this developing label which is a euphemism for slaving in service of western money changers/capitalists/banksters take your pick and it doesn't matter they know how to cook the books...They are doing it in every place they get a chance! May be you are not aware of they treated most Americans as bad as the so called developing world with the sub-prime scam! The so called leaders are just the glorified pawns in their worship of mammon and Machiavellian game! Just imagine who owns most of the housing in the world the banks and or their puppet lackeys the rulers who just keep printing paper money and never know when the bottom will fall off!

Partition of India was decided during the Round Table conferences and subsequent meetings between the British, Muslim League and the Indian National Congress and Sir Cyril Radcliffe, was just the chairman of the Border Commission, having decided to partition India.
For argument sake mind you the meetings are just a drama in politics, the things always get decided in smoke filled rooms!

Radcliffe's job was to partition the Composite Bengal and the Composite Punjab and allocation of other territories like Gurdaspur District and Chittagong Hill Tracts and Cox Bazaar Area, he fixed a border, arbitarily (Mind within 14 days), diving the natural flow of rivers, cutting across rivers in several places, cutting communication lines, telegraph lines, railways, through villages and even several homes, with one room in Pakistan and other in India.
but lot of money and jewels changed hands for Gurdaspur to make it east of the line...Cuz to give strategic access to Kashmir in case of military campaign that was left hanging cuz As you noted for Pandat Nehru being Kashmiri Brahman and Scorpio had plans up his sleeve !
If the referendum had Gurdaspur marked Pakistani territory how did it end up otherwise! With almost non existing independent communications the Brit Radcliffe had the full control who got what? At the last moment the Hindu capitalist won the plum but with rot!
Would you like me to tell you my personal affiliation about Gurdaspur /Dina Nagar thing about my grand pa escaped from the Hindu Sikh rioters who came to loot his mansion but he got out just in time and saw it burnt down from afar!

All because of selfish attitudes of the 8 leaders who somehow wanted to occuly positions, even in a truncated land, even at the cost of death of 2 to 3 million people and displacement of 20 million people, forming a new country on religious ground with 2 wings divided by more than 2300 KM , triggering religious hatred, India was divided and the British could not care less, just as the Americans dont care of what damage they do elsewhere.
THE STANDARD POLITICAL MANTRA DIVIDE, CONQUER AND RULE, NOW WITH REMOTE CONTROL! What better scenario they could expect than these two opposite camps parties! The British worked with Hindus in administrating the colony with some exceptions in the form of Nawab states or borderline Muslims! Just look at who murdered Gandhi a fanatic Hindu NathuRam Gadse! If you read his court rant it is one of the most chilling mindset of the Hindu extremists you can find anywhere!

Needless to say that if 220 million Indian minorities could live with dignity and equality along with the majoirty Hindu community surely Composite India would have lived peacefully (bearing few problems) and emerged strong as the Greatest Nation as all people, whether Hindus or Muslims or others are equally patriotic and all want peace and welfare and there is amity and workable balance between the various communities.*****
This is a recent thing in last century the Hindu forces were just too belligerent to let that happen...Lot has happened since that time! The world has gone upside down! India lost war against the new rising star China, The USSR fell apart, Third Reich burnt down, British super power status dissolved, America is broke, Europe is struggling, Indian politics finally realized that after all if they are going to attract the overseas capital and work they need to change the Hindutva style attitude and things will move! You gonna work on the assembly line check your religion at the door or the capitalist don't make the profits!

Imagine the facts that 22% of world population crammed in 2.5% of World land area and more diverse than entire Africa or Europe is making rapid progress on many fronts. India is Great and hope she deserves and gets all the blessings of Allah.
I think India learned fast from the China model who checked the communism at door too and joined the club! But in the long run it is the strong tribal instincts that takes the helm to win the global game! It needs to uplift all in physical health that is where India has its work cut out...

Did you ever look at India's performance at the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/All-time_Olympic_Games_medal_table - Olympics ? It is a great yard stick to see where you stand in getting the nation up there health and fitness! Unless it can clean house of its caste system all they can work will be third rate!

The pride of India can be summarised when a Non-Hindu majority Nation-State like Sikkim (Buddhist Majority) volunteered to join the Republic of India by relinquishing its own soverignity through the mechanism of referendum conducted by the then Ruler Chogyal of Sikkim in 1975, and the tragedy of Pakistan can be seen when the overwhelming Muslim-majority East Pakistan severed all its relations with West Pakistan after a bloody war resulting in genocide conducted by West Pakistani leaders in East Pakistan and the result was Bangladesh in 1971.
The case of Bangla desh is nothing but was a case exploitation of the labor what Brits were doing during colonial periods and they were just right to stand up be counted! Agian working for the industrialist and capitalists same paradigm and now they are doing for themselves and are doing for better wages! The people were not involved in the so called partition they just went along for what ever!

What happened to the raison-etre of partition ?
It was process without any specific plan! Like a fiefdom of the selected Nawabs , Land owners and don't forget the veterans of the WWII who thought raison-etre were them... the quid pro quo of the promise to fight entitled them that which resulted in so many army generals ruling the place... even Governor Generals(Jinnah and others) were under the crown in the first place! The whole thing was a joke!

Allah hafiz

BTW Can you explain this I saw in LA Times this morning!*****

In India's Jammu and Kashmir state, rocks are weapon of choice

For a generation of angry young men caught up in a decades-long territorial dispute, lobbing stones in protest has proved deadly, as some Indian forces respond with bullets.

WHY? THIS AFTER SIX DECADES THESE GUYS DON'T WANT TO BE PART OF INDIA! SURE BLAME PAKILAND BUT IT DOESN'T SOUND PRACTICAL IN BLAMING ANYMORE, THEY GOT ENOUGH TROUBLE OF THEIR OWN... IF EVERY THING IS AS ROSY YOU SAID BUT THESE ROCK THROWERS ARE PAINTING A PICTURE LOOKING MORE LIKE PALESTINIANS IN WEST BANK! Disapprove

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Kismet Domino: Faith/Courage/Liberty/Abundance/Selfishness/Immorality/Apathy/Bondage or extinction.

Posted By: Sign*Reader
Date Posted: 15 August 2010 at 7:07pm

I don't think India has earned the bragging rights yet!

How is this possible for a great nation to be?

I think India has a long way to go from that, May be some day! BTW I have nothing against India but you know the caste system will need a revolution to get rid off and then may be! Being cheap programmers and other stuff don't cut the mustard yet!
This one from New York Times! which is quite pro India paper in the US....
The pictures are quite sickening to look at in this month of Ramadan!

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/08/09/world/asia/09food.html?_r=1&th&emc=th -
Lynsey Addario for The New York Times

Meera Damore sat with her severely malnourished son, Pappu, in the Jhabua District government hospital in the Indian state of Madhya Pradesh. http://www.nytimes.com/slideshow/2010/08/08/world/asia/FOOD.html - More Photos �

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Kismet Domino: Faith/Courage/Liberty/Abundance/Selfishness/Immorality/Apathy/Bondage or extinction.

Posted By: Chrysalis
Date Posted: 15 August 2010 at 7:33pm

Divya_Mohammed wrote:

Assalam Alaikum,

but I have absolutely no sympathy at all. They are reaping the fruits of what they sowed years back. I do not blame anyone else but Pakistan for its current crisis.

Wa'alaikum salaam,

That is a pretty strong thing to say sister!

That is your opinion as an Indian sister. Approximately 160 million Pakistanis disagree with you and are happy with the partition. We Pakistanis feel sad about losing West Pakistan to "Bangladesh" - (thanks to Indian efforts) - but we have come to terms with that fact, and accept Bangladesh as a sovereign nation, wishing them all the best.

I think it is about time Indians did what we did with Bangladeshis and came to terms with the Indian partition too. It has after all been 63 years, how much more time do they need? The fact remains that there was a pretty large percentage of Muslims living in India who were not happy to live as part of composite India, and wanted to live in a Muslim majority country.

I pray to Allah that no nation on the planet should be bifurcated by force, especially for people of just one religious community at the right and expense of people of religious minorities.

It wasn't "by force" sis, it is what we Pakistanis chose for ourselves. My grandparents from both sides willingly migrated from India to Pakistan. Nobody forced them. They left their property and wealth behind, to start a new life as Pakistanis. Why? because they thought it was better for us to live in a Muslim majority country where we can live an easier life as a Muslim. It was not at the expense of religious minorites.... if anything, had the Pakistanis remained in India, they would have remained a minority compared to the majority Hindus. But as a separate nation, we enjoy certain benefits that we would not have enjoyed as Indian Muslims. I believe just last year due to the Mumbai Attacks or riots there was pressure on the muslims not to celebrate eid ul Azha. Clerics in India caution Muslims not to slaughter cows on Eid out of respect for the Hindus etc etc. I don't have the energy right now to dig in our neighbor's closet. Partially because I don't want to get into an argument over nationalities with a fellow Muslim sister - and a new one at that. So lets just leave it at that shall we Smile

Babri Masjid ? Gujrat riots? Treatment of lower caste Dalits?

PS: I agree with Sign-Reader's last post about "bragging rights", and he isnt too fond of Pakistan himself Wink

. Its both amazing and amusing how Indians like to brag about how great their nation is when it has a closet full of its own issues. Some are simply relentless. A visiting lecturer of mine started a debate about the Partition (or like we say 'independence') while in the cafeteria with only 15minutes to class... I was too polite to say what I said in this post i.e. it has been 63 years, please move on! For most of our neighbors its like a bad break-up that they refuse to get over...

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"O Lord, forgive me, my parents and Muslims in the Hereafter. O Lord, show mercy on them as they showed mercy to me when I was young."

Posted By: Hayfa
Date Posted: 15 August 2010 at 10:06pm

I tend to think that nationalism is a big problem for we Muslims. Allah gave us many gifts- with different cultural aspects that we all enjoy. I for one like being in the US as I was raised to be independent and this society allows me to do so. I felt very stifled living in Pakistan. And I know Pakistanis that were miserable in the west and just wanted to go back "home." There is nothing wrong with that enjoyment and grateful to Allah.

But I do think it is not helpful to we Muslim to place that over supporting others no matter where they are. No matter about the politics of t he Indian and Pakistani divide we are all human beings on earth and will be tested.

but I have absolutely no sympathy at all. They are reaping the fruits of what they sowed years back. I do not blame anyone else but Pakistan for its current crisis.

I too agree sister these are strong words. Its not about "blame" dear sister its a test for all, a test for those people, a test of those who could help (are we) and a test for those who have potential ill-will to find compassion in their hearts. Cause dear sister this could easily happen in India or any other place in the world. Allah will show us mercy if we show others mercy.

I agree Sign, India must deal with its caste system and its money-lending system which puts families into debts for generations.

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When you do things from your soul, you feel a river moving in you, a joy. Rumi

Posted By: Divya_Mohammed
Date Posted: 16 August 2010 at 3:12am

Assalam Alaikum

This subject is too complex and sure, we can debate endlessly. At least we can do one thing together, that is to pray to Allah Almighty that peace and progress exists for all people, irrespective of religious affinities in all three countries.

Few years back, I met an elderly Pakistani (Muslim) in the Indian train and we had discussed for a long time and he was explaining to me how much he wanted to be in India and settle back and take up Indian Citizenship but cannot do it, before his death in his earlier village that he left in India, while moving to Pakistan. His stories were soul-searching and even my mother was not born then.

I am happy you mentioned that no one forced your family but all were not lucky like that, for all those who migrated from Pakistan to india or from india to Pakistan. There was systematic ethnic cleansing.

There was a private survey done and almost all respondents , who included many Hindus, Muslims, Sikhs and others; all had unanimous opinion that no one wants Pakistan or Bangladesh back at all. Surely India and Indians accepts the reality of Pakistan and Bangladesh .

Also the concept of Nationhood or affinity for language or culture cannot be wished away. They will always stand alongside religions and one's commitment to God.

Let there be peace and progress and let us pray for that !

Allah Hafiz

Divya Mohammed

Posted By: Hayfa
Date Posted: 16 August 2010 at 11:46am

I agree it is complex and there will be no solutions or answers for the actions of past peoples.

They will always stand alongside religions and one's commitment to God.

I do hope that it is BEHIND one's commitment to Allah, Islam and humanity. I think as the people become more inter-connected through technology we will be less and less nationalistic. As more people travel and see the world, people will think less about "my group" by humanity as a whole.

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When you do things from your soul, you feel a river moving in you, a joy. Rumi

Posted By: Chrysalis
Date Posted: 16 August 2010 at 12:11pm

Hayfa wrote:

I do hope that it is BEHIND one's commitment to Allah, Islam and humanity.

I agree. Thats how I view my attachment towards Pakistan... as long as the love for my land its people doesn't clash with my Imaan and Islam. The interest of our Ummah/Muslim Brotherhood (note to FBI: not the Egyptian political party...the other kind) should be given a priority over our "tribe" or "country.

Upto a certain extent it can be compatible . . . . attachment to one's roots is something inevitable and cannot be seperated from who you are.

I think as the people become more inter-connected through technology we will be less and less nationalistic. As more people travel and see the world, people will think less about "my group" by humanity as a whole.

Lets hope so inshAllah! Smile

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"O Lord, forgive me, my parents and Muslims in the Hereafter. O Lord, show mercy on them as they showed mercy to me when I was young."

Posted By: Sign*Reader
Date Posted: 20 August 2010 at 11:16pm

Chrysalis:
I would like you to tell me whatever you know about the boys beaten to death in Sialkot to help my fondness!
And this happened in Ramadan that can't be blamed on talibaans either!
There is no Pakistan that was Iqbal's dream and if he was alive what happened in his town he will do fast unto death for certain and what is happening in Karachi Jinnah would regret asking for the Governor General's chair!

I think being a poet philosopher Iqbal forgot, it takes real people to build nation, not just a piece of land!

After the video and the discussion on a show Allah's displeasure became quite evident!
Imho enough is enough!

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Kismet Domino: Faith/Courage/Liberty/Abundance/Selfishness/Immorality/Apathy/Bondage or extinction.

Posted By: Chrysalis
Date Posted: 21 August 2010 at 5:48am

Sign*Reader wrote:

Chrysalis:
I would like you to tell me whatever you know about the boys beaten to death in Sialkot to help my fondness!
And this happened in Ramadan that can't be blamed on talibaans either!

Well Sign these beatings were definitely horrendous and foolish - but what I fail to see is how you are associating it with Pakistan's ideology?

Bro killings, murders, shootings take place throughout the world. It is an unfortunate part of being human and living amongst mortals who are flawed. Name one society, community or nation that is crime free? The people involved in the beatings were foolish, impulsive and aggressive. A trend that is unfortunately becoming more common with young males around the world.

If we be that cynical then we shall simply end up having no fondness for any of our fellow human race, not just Pakistan. Since such acts are part and parcel of life as human beings...

There is no Pakistan that was Iqbal's dream

Thats because reality can never be as Utopian as a dream. Theory is always markedly different from its application. Imperfection is part of being human. While I do hope Pakistan and the Ummah overcome their problems, I do not expect everything to be perfect, Utopian or dream like. We will always have our flaws.
When a baby is born, the parents think it's perfect, they want it to be perfect, they have stellar expectations - they dream big dreams.... they never stop to think of possibilities that the child may grow up to be a material failure, unemployed or a criminal. Dreams are always eons away from actual reality...

I think being a poet philosopher Iqbal forgot, it takes real people to build nation, not just a piece of land!

I agree 100% with the part in bold. Real people means real flaws and real mistakes - meaning we shall never achieve the dream... and we should be ready to accept failures and disappointments. We can try to achieve it, and attain the next best level. However that doesn't mean we have to be cynical and write off an entire population based on their human flaws and faults.

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"O Lord, forgive me, my parents and Muslims in the Hereafter. O Lord, show mercy on them as they showed mercy to me when I was young."

Posted By: Sign*Reader
Date Posted: 02 September 2010 at 1:02am

http://news.antiwar.com/2010/09/01/diplomatic-row-pakistani-military-delegation-leaves-us-in-protest-after-airport-detention/ - Diplomatic Row: Pakistani Military Delegation Leaves US in Protest After Airport Detention

Visit to Centcom Cut Short by 'Terror' Detentions of a Paki Military OMG

I think if these clown have any self respect left they should do something about this disgrace! There is a limit to being sycophantic slaves!

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Kismet Domino: Faith/Courage/Liberty/Abundance/Selfishness/Immorality/Apathy/Bondage or extinction.

Posted By: nu001
Date Posted: 07 May 2011 at 6:04am

Sign*Reader wrote:

...They had no power to divide but to demand whatever but there was something else bigger in scope than that these guys that you have overlooked!

Bro I agree to you all the way, but the above quoted part. Infact the word "demand" is very crucial, has bigger role than what the superpowers have done/can do. Just think, if they didnt demand, would the superpowers be able to seperate?

Example: US wanted to divide Iraq, but Iraqis didnt want, could they do it?

It's always good to see the intentions and positions of your own leaders than to put all the allegations on the superpowers and world politics. That's what these corrupt leaders want you to do. If the leaders and people want the same, no world power can change that even by wars.

Would you blame America for the situation you are in now? Although the leaders will bul*****about annahillation and such stuff and political pressure, but Pakistan did it by choice. Region from Afg border upto Islamabad is virtually under US control now and america isn't doing it by force. They have agreement and they pay to do what they are doing. Your leaders and military chose money over national honour... FULLSTOP

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"Al-Quran-The only Straight path to success. Alhamdulillah"

Posted By: Sign*Reader
Date Posted: 10 September 2011 at 8:11pm

http://www.dawn.com/2011/09/10/religious-leadership-eager-to-get-us-aid.html - �Religious leadership & US aid�

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Kismet Domino: Faith/Courage/Liberty/Abundance/Selfishness/Immorality/Apathy/Bondage or extinction.