wow

guess we'll see what happens, seems a good start

Bismillah

When Musharraf and his droids exhaust themselves killing their own brethren under the guise of 'war on terror', they will be laid on the tray to be mercilessly devoured by the very Idols they worshipped - the deceitful "allies".

That will be the time when he will look for help from his people, only to find ashes and bones he has left behind... This is not conspiracy theory. This has happened before... this is the conquest of Central Asia a la XI century.

Bismillah

Rezz, you seem to be always limiting the number of alternatives: if it is not Bush - it is Bin Laden, of it is not McDonalds - it is kebab with pita, if it is not CNN - it is al-Jazeera.

Yes there are a lot of crazy Pakistanis today, but have you visited Pakistan to make statements like that or are you judging by those half-cooked British subjects again. Many find ethnic tribes inhabiting what today is known as Pakistan (British made, by the way), as some of the most hospitable and kind people... provided that you do not force yourself into their home with a gun. 

As far as nuke fables. Taliban did not finance development of nuclear technology, neither did they authorise extermination of hundreds of thousands of japanese in split seconds... may be you should reconsider your fears. There are nations who have established mass production of nuclear weapons and refuse to abolish programs for their further development. I am afraid, they are not Taliban...

Bruce, that's where the Americans have always gone wrong - backing people who suit just their interests at that very narrow moment of time and always ignoring how the man in the street feel about "their man".

You wish to know this great man who has declared jehad on terrorism or what his people think of him? Find a flight to Lahore. You will be my guest at the Lahore Gymkhana. We will go meet the men in the streets. Also taste some of the best mangoes in the world!

Is it really that hard for your admin to find some men of the people as their partners? Or, is it that such men are a bit difficult to make "certain" deals with?

Whisper wrote: Bruce, that's where the Americans have always gone wrong - backing people who suit just their interests at that very narrow moment of time and always ignoring how the man in the street feel about "their man".

I would broadly agree with that Mr Whisper. I think the British phrase is something like: "Not being able to see beyond their noses".

Mockba, why are you teasing our Rezz? The poor chap has to spit his venom somewhere. What's wrong about letting him float in the racist fallacy that all other places in the world than the ones they inhabit have a higher %age of criminals.

It's an absolutely beautiful country with some of the most docile peace loving people I have known in the world.

Yaarem Rezz, keh tu Farsi fehemedi?

It would have been easier for us to talk if we did that, but brother could I ask you just two questions and a half? How many "experiences" have you had with the members of the Pakistani community, recently or otherwise?

How long does it take for a "western puppet" to say choke on a cookie or, for his own body guard to relieve him of the dishonour he has brought the army? The nukes were with a democratic govenment. The P M promoted a differnt general (as his constitutional responsibilty) to take over charge from this brave chief. He took his guns out to sack the government.

Now that the half question. Iran was quite a kool place in the 50s. It was known as the Paris of the Mid East. Is it possible that the 1953 US invasion, sacking of an elected government and then running of the Takht e Taoos (by a Colonel Roosvelt from an ante room in the Shah's palace) had anything to do with making of Khomeni?

West will be safe only when it stops slaughter and invasions. These slaughters and invasions will keep multiplying extreme elements across the globe. I am sure you must have heard of an opposite and equal reaction? It doesn't just apply to physical objects but to the whole of our life processes.

Braderem I will embrace your criticism of all things Islamic the day you balance it with just a fair look at how our Washington and London have behaved in these past few centuries. And, mostly under the guise of charitable concern!!

Mockba please save your breath. There's no need to respond to such usual rhetoric and spin. As if it's just Madrassas on their own and the Hag Low Sexnon illegal invasions and occupations have nothing to do with it.

Why wouldn't you let the poster satisfy himself with just his own words. He holds no points at all. He is here just to score some.

Come on, today we are listening.

Tell us what you know of ANY madrassa leave aside the Pakistani madrassas, at all. Are you trying to tell us that the Palestinian or the Kashmiri torture is just fathered by some Imam's sermons and, in actual, these do not exist?

I've never said that the MNF was perfect. 

No, it�s absolutely perfect, a perfect fraud and a perfect Alliance of the Billing!

no discussion of the OBL problem or Islamic motivated extremism

What is this OBL problem? Why don�t you catch him? He has been sighted enough times by your air force. Why do you keep him lingering in our lands? Just to extend the excuse for keeping those troops there?

let's call it the hijacking of some aspect of Islam by extremists or extremists manipulating Islamic teaching to underpin radical heinous, Death Cultic behaviour. 

Be honest what can we discuss, with your presumptions; as if the Palestinian torture was merely fathered by some Imam�s imagination or his vile sermon?

As if the US troops in the proximity of Makkah and Medina should have made all the Muslims dance bhangra � from Jakarta to Fez - and not have the effect it had?

When you are in the proximity of losing a point, you begin with a mock equation; of Egyptian troops in Iraq with US troops in Saudi Arabia.

Is that absolute cultural insensitivity? Just profound ignorance? Or, sheer point scoring?

The ball is in your court.

You tell me what can we discuss with you when you just slip away completely from a point in hand if you are not scoring a point?

...he just wants to repeat 'illegal invasions' enough times, over and over again until someone will believe that it is somehow true. 

I am so glad you solved this riddle for me.

Now, I understand why you keep repeating liberation and MNF so often and almost in every single breath. Just with the hope that someone might come to believe it!

We hold no need to be believed as long as the Iraqis and the Afghans know what they have got. Plus, majority populations even in your most sacred MNF countries know what it�s all about. The Poles, the Bulgarians and even the Italians have forced their governments to announce troop withdrawals by popular demand.

I really thought that in some of your posts you were trumpeting Democracy and elections. Now, it's an insight to see a dictator in charge when it suits the American interests!!!!!

Bravo double standards.

what in the world do you know about ANY little aspect of the United States...

Of all their butchery from Vietnam to Kabul and Baghdad. Of all their double dealings across the world. We would have listened to you and your admin if you had run down Saddam when he was serving your interests - instead of giving him all the money and arms he needed.

Keep your MNF and liberation fraud where it belongs. We need that many words only to support something that can not stand on its own. Your shouting will lift the sagging US image when your entire admin's chanting couldn't?

Whisper wrote: what in the world do you know about ANY little aspect of the United States... Of all their butchery from Vietnam to Kabul and Baghdad. Of all their double dealings across the world. We would have listened to you and your admin if you had run down Saddam when he was serving your interests - instead of giving him all the money and arms he needed. Keep your MNF and liberation fraud where it belongs. We need that many words only to support something that can not stand on its own. Your shouting will lift the sagging US image when your entire admin's chanting couldn't?

Assalamu alaikum akhi,

I might add that the US lied its way into Vietnam via the Tonkin Gulf Incident (now proven to be a deliberate deception) in the same way it lied its way into Iraq.

Ah, but you're asking me to be silent about the Pakistani Madrasses? 

Why would I ever wish to silence you on anything?

You are my best defense by always shooting your own point in the foot.

You may or may not know that the Madrassas never had a Jihadi curriculum till our friends from Langley came up with somebright ideas about what should be taught in some madrassas - for recruiting Jihadis in late 70�s!!

And, with some real cash incentives.

Today, less than 5% madrassas can be blamed for inciting terrorism. The Greatest Terror Promoter title is still held by the United States of America.

your comments on 'US butchery'
Sorry, not my comments, actually, stolen from an article by Prof J K Galbraith. Must correct myself, he had called it slaughter and plunder. Plus, my Spanish friends keep calling them a few other names, which I dare not translate on this site.

Alaikum es Salaam y mucho Gracias,

"I might add that the US lied its way into Vietnam via the Tonkin Gulf Incident (now proven to be a deliberate deception) in the same way it lied its way into Iraq"

But he won't even look in this direction. Or invent some real reason for it!

Jenni wrote: To all of you, why does your discussion allways go back and forth to west and east bashing, I mean come on...YAWN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Both sides have some good and bad points. Thier is plenty of racism, corruption, opression and violence that takes place on the part of Muslims that can't all be blamed on the west!!! And just because you believe that the current administration is curropt doesn't mean you can blame them for every problem in the Muslim world. Sure if we Muslims were behaving better, taking care of each other and treating women and children the way we should and not taking advantage or opressing others(like in Darfur) than maybe Allah would protect us more. Everyone needs to take responsibility for thier own side.

Well said Jenni!!!

Lameese

Jenni, it would be quite an interesting thing to define "educated". Does education mean just the ability to read and write + some degree that too from an American uni?

Or, must it imbibe just the urge, if not the ability to think with own mind. Your husband's comment or what anyother such Nuevo Educated Pakistanis are saying is no piece from some divine or otherwise sensible judgment. It is exactly a sum total of the Musharraf admin's spin - also rotated in the US 0 for their own agenda.

You also seem to be educated to me. Does it make any sense that some generals (with absolute unaccountability) would have any less plundering and social destruction (in any country, not just in Pakistan) than any bunch of elected thugs?

Or, is it just that it's okay to keep a dictator on these poor Pakis as long as it serves the Pentagon interest. And, when he needs to be binned, your entire media will be telling the whole world how he was more of a Hitler than Hitler himself.

Have we not already seen such demonisations.

By being in bed with Mush our Bush is Talibanising 152 million Pakis as hardcore American haters. That's how the US shoots itself in the foot and then finds a scapegoat in some OBL or whoever.

May Allah bless you in your life.

"I might add that the US lied its way into Vietnam via the Tonkin Gulf Incident (now proven to be a deliberate deception) in the same way it lied its way into Iraq"

Told you he won't even look in this direction. Or invent some real reason for it! Isn't it sd when people are so scared to face the truth. We must have a global fund for the treatment of such ailments

Jenni, I am sorry, didn�t mean to offend you. But, your husband will tell you that the Pathaans are known for a bit of straight talking.  

The Talibaan don�t come anywhere in the equation, so we should leave them out for now.

Your husband�s life story exactly proves my point.

General Agha Mohammed Yahya Khan (and, of course, General Rani) was running Pakistan when he moved the army to crush a popularly elected government in 1971.

If massacring 1.5 to 1.7 million Bengalis, raping young girls, pregnant women and burning village after village is saving a country then for sure they did save a country by breaking it into two!!

It�s extremely sad, but we are not shaheed if we die imposing our will or just anything else as political. You husband�s father died for no more than his rank.

> And do you know anything about pakistans history . . .

Yes, unlike in the US, the rest of the world does know about other countries. Plus, we have lived in Pakistan since leaving Ghazni - modesty keeps me from mentioning who we know there.

> all of the political instability, corruption ect.

Always and without any exception caused by the ISI for it�s own agenda.

> Allmost every president has been kicked out.

By who? You mean not always by the serving Army Chief?

> The army has been the only saving force in that country.

Saving from what? It broke the country into halves. Ran away leaving 92,783 prisoners of war in Indian hands. If an elected parliament did not beg Indira Ghandi to send them home the whole lot would have still been ploughing fields under the Indian army whips.

Right now Mush�s army rule has caused two major insurgencies at hand, one in Baluchistan and the other in N W F P.

Please ask your husband to rise above his army connection and at least tell you the truth � who created all the mess in Kashmir?

Who supported and strengthened the Talibaan?

And, he would also be able to name the General who founded all the Jehadi madrassas?

The Shia, Sunni problem was played up by General Zia in the late 70s to dilute Jamaat e Islami political hold in Lower Punjaub and Karachi.

It�s a typical ISI excuse that the country can�t run without them.

I have strong connections with the army top brass and also with some of the political names. I find the elected chaps have to be a little polite in looting their country for the fear of their electorate. The army has no such concerns.

I have no fear of the truth

Then why not deal with the actual question instead of trying to wash it away with spit and sheer piss?

I have no profit in telling you anything other than the plain simple truth. India did NOT attack East Pakistan till 17th December 1971 - long after Agha Yahya had played his bloodbath from March 1971.

Read the Hamood ur Rahman Commission report on this war. Bibi, I wonder which posts you fine narrow minded? I am not even a Muslim leave aside some religious fanatic.

You are absolutely confused here. When was there a quasi religious government in Pakistan? You are welcome to keep anyone in power in your husband's country, it's no water over my wings. But that is exactly how the Americans lose - by keeping dictators of their choice in power.

Good luck to you in a world where your country pretends to promote democracy in!

If your husband's father was a shaheed then you will have to accept all the Talibaan and Al-Qaeda as shaheeds with the same measure.

Bruce, I have no need to expose you. You do it so well on your own for me. You have run away from each question. Now the time is up.

And, thanks, you have proven what I had thought of the Americans; shameless, abusive idiots who fail to see beyond their noses.

The lsat six are not my words but those of an English gentleman. 

Yaarem Rezz, keh tu Farsi fehemedi?

Brethern, isn't it sad how people evaporate with simple tests? I had addresed our Rezz who was claiming to be born a Muslim in some Iranian family - with just six Farsi words.

Never heard from him. Not seen him anywhere on the site.

that 'removing' dictators is some sort of easy endeavor,

I agree, it's impossible to bin anything while it's of use to us. But, then we cry terrorism when people stand against us.

Jibreel, when the Quran was desecrated I had noted exactly the same point: the

[moderator edited]

Please do not insult other races of faiths.

a note the founding farthers of america gave the people of all faiths including muslims (as specificly mentioned by name) the right to practice there religion freely.

Thanks Jenni! I know and understand the US well, but this fella deserves nor understands any better treatment.

Peace!

Please do not insult other races of faiths.

a note the founding farthers of america gave the people of all faiths including muslims (as specificly mentioned by name) the right to practice there religion freely.

It's sad, you did not get my point. I did not and can not insult any faith or race - I am not even a Muslim or for that matter have any axe to grind.

My point is simple - I FIRMLY believe that the US has been desecrating the Bible by "abusing" it in support of their aggression, terrorism and occupations.

The people of the United State are not a race. Have they not supported this abuse of the Bible? Has the White House been just alone in doing that?

Bismillah ir rahman ir rahim,

Whisper wrote: Your husband�s life story exactly proves my point. General Agha Mohammed Yahya Khan (and, of course, General Rani) was running Pakistan when he moved the army to crush a popularly elected government in 1971. If massacring 1.5 to 1.7 million Bengalis, raping young girls, pregnant women and burning village after village is saving a country then for sure they did save a country by breaking it into two!! Yes, unlike in the US, the rest of the world does know about other countries. Plus, we have lived in Pakistan since leaving Ghazni - modesty keeps me from mentioning who we know there.   � who created all the mess in Kashmir? Who supported and strengthened the Talibaan? And, he would also be able to name the General who founded all the Jehadi madrassas? The Shia, Sunni problem was played up by General Zia in the late 70s to dilute Jamaat e Islami political hold in Lower Punjaub and Karachi.

This is a surprise I have seen for the first time on these boards .... someone who has a connection with Pakistan, acknowledging the problems honestly.

Bismillah ir rahman ir rahim,

Whisper, you are ignorant to say you know if someone is Shaheed or not. Only Allah knows. And he was defending the border from invasion of a Hindu army(not anything against todays hindus in india, i have many hindu friends). So you have no right to say that and I find most of your posts narrowminded . And I would rather have Musharif in power that some Quasi religous Taliban , Whahabi type party that would throw the country back 100 years. Then we could all wear Bhurkas too, but than you may support that!!!

A person does not become a shaheed by fighting with a non-muslim army. There needs to be an islamic cause to fight a non-muslim, otherwise is just plain war. This wrong notion of being shaheed after fighting the indians is deterring the peace process in kashmir issue. And Pakistan thinks smuggling all the terrorists across the LOC is to earn some kind of shahadat. Then why were the Taliban not shaheed, because they fought not a hindu army but an american army?

India was never ruled by any Quasi religious Taliban, but till date women wear the "Burka" some may fear to think of.

And he was defending the border from invasion of a Hindu army

The attack in 1947 was by Pakistan on India, and not the other way round. In 1971, India had not occupied or invaded East Pakistan, instead the original problem was between West and East Pakistan.

Cargil war was also started by Pakistan.

Pakistanis bombed Indian Parliament (and never the other way round).

Furhter, it was Pakistanis who hijacked a civilian indian aircraft (and never the other way round).... perhaps they even consider these acts as Jihad.

Peace.

N

Salaam Nausheen,

Can we ever be counted as humans, leave aside stand as good Muslims, if we refuse to face the Truth or shirk away from justice?

I grew up first hand not just in the regional history but also with almost all the history makers. Pakistan has been under occupation - being under your own army's occupation is more dangerous - as you don't get the sympathy that people occupied by foreign forces do!! It is a sad fact that occupied people end up with a convoluted mentality. 

I have not yet seen a more beautiful country anywhere in the world and, with her resources. And, I have yet to see a country that has messed about the region more - and ever just for the US designs and agendain the area.

I am also on record against my own ancestors' invasions and occupations of India. That's my jehaad - absolute truth and neat Justice for everyone, anywhere, all hours.

Bismillah ir rahman ir rahim,

Jenni wrote: Nausheen it is funny to me how one sided your view is. It seems to you India has done no wrong and Pakistan is to blame for all problems.

I stated facts Jenni. if you cannot accept the fact that it was always Pakistan who attacked India, then nobody can help you.

You called a national army "Hindu army" In case you do not know a huge 15% of India's population is Muslim. There are christians, sikhs and parsis also in this country. They have their representation pretty much in the army. Indian army is not a hindu army.

At no point I have said whose fault is the present situation, so you cannot say I have a one sided view. At least you could have quoted me before voicing your presumptions.

Jenni wrote: And I am not Pakistani, my husband is. You should not generalize people and call them ignorant

Really? it was you who called Whisper ignorant. In my post I did not use this word.

Jenni wrote: and I say again no one can say if someone is Shaheed

if you are talking about a holy war, I'd have no issue with you. The wars you mentioned were for purely political reasons. And do you want to know the behaviors of Pakistan army in Bangladesh? I dont think you will care to give a ear.

Jenni wrote: Everyone here thinks they know everything and are some kind of Scholar or historian, frankly it is a bit boring discussing with such no it alls. Yawn

Cool. Then why do you not move to some greener pastures?

Peace.

Assalamualaikum wa rahmatullah

Jenni wrote: as sister Naushneed said Pakistanis are ignorant,

Care to quote what I said, Jenni?

Waiting to hear what you have understood from my remarks to Whisper.

Peace,

N

Auzubillahi minash shaitan ir rajeem,

Bismillah ir rahman ir rahim,

Thank you Jenni.

here is what I said:

I have known such a small fraction of people from Pakistan that it would not be fair to have a generalised opinion. Mostly I found people very ignorant in history. Or maybe the history in curriculum begins from 14th Aug, 1947. Would you care to enlighten me on this. 

And you comment ;

"as sister Naushneed said Pakistanis are ignorant."

Jenni, I said I know a very small fraction, and in that small fraction, mostly I found ppl ignorant in History. I dont know how the small fraction I know makes the entire Pakistani population for you(?) - when I am also saying it would not be fair to generalize. In other words, I am not generalizing the entire population here, but sharing my experience of the small population I have met. And the small population I know may not be bigger than 30 families.

Interesting how you have twisted my words.

Hope the above serves as a clarification.

Maa salaama,

N.

And I called whisper ignorant for making a blanket statement that my father in law was not Shaheed as only Allah can decide this, but his family considers him to be so.

Jenny, what do I gain or lose with your late father-in-law's shahdaat? Just one good reason, please? I have my full sympathies with your husband and his family. There is a very strong possibility that I may even have known his father or some other members of his family. Pak forces have quite a lot of Pathaans.

I just gave you an account, which can be verified by a huge evidence. Read Christopher Hitchins' book on Kissinger who was an architect of this tragedy. Or, go through Justice Hamood ur Rahman Commission report.

The criteria for shahadaat is laid down in absolute clarity.

Akhi el Aziz Zaman, the action started March 27th or 29th 1971. I will check with my Pakistan contacts this week. India intervened on 3rd November. I agree, Indira Gandhi danced in the Lok Sabha, almost like a child when East Pakistan fell.

But it was the Pakistan Generals junta that set the stage for her dance.

That's all water under the bridge, now. Let's watch what this lot will cause through their limited visions.

Auzubillahi minash shaitan ir rajeem,

Bismillah ir rahman ir rahim,

Walaikum assalam Whisper,

Jazak allah khair, I appreciate the time and effort you have spent to write the above post. A very interesting tour in History, alhamdulillah.

I had some bits and peices, which you helped to put together, and provided with the missing links as well.

Once again thanks a lot.

Maa salaama,

Nausheen

Salaam Nausheen

How would you thank me for the pleasure of farz.

M' Salaama

Sasha

Is torturing Muslims In pakistan part of his  Struggle?

He had his wife  kisising the Hindu Indian pm on world Tv.  is it part of his struggle to create a new Society which   gets its wives to Kiss the enemy?

 This is struggle in the Path of Shaytan not in the path of Allah.

 Those who kill and are killed are killing and being killed for the path of Shaytan.

Yaar Brother Aik Do Teen, first of all our good old Manmohan Singh is not a Hindu. Even if he were a Hindu just tell me honestly how many women in Pakistan were not (and, possibly, even now are) ready to kiss Amitabh Bachan?

Why worry? By now, you should be absolutely used to being permanantly occupied by your own army. Wailing doesn't help. Did anyone ever start a genuine movement against such things, I mean, to start with to end this state of occupation? How many Pakistanis can live without Coke or MacBurgers?

However, and I would never deny, the Palestinian/Israeli questions have a special significance to the Muslim world..

Thanks. It makes life easy to talk about something when we accept simple facts in simple honest way. What the Palestinians do with their existence and how they develop a relationship with the Israelis or the rest of the world is one hundred and twenty three percent their own matter.

Anyone with a progresive bent of mind would wish this to grow without any foreign intervention - specially from some old colonialists or the wannabes.

Thanks. Good post.

So how come it's bad to be a naysayer to murderers purpose and objectives?